No the bottom line is that you can saddle a cow or a camel but that doesn't mean it's a horse.
It does if the people that hold the sacrosanct licencing rights say its a horse.
It also gives fanboys of the holders of that sacrosanct license the right to be excessively hostile, treat anyone that doesn't agree with them like an imbecile and call them names (even follow them to other threads and derail them with raging rants for merely posting their disagreeable views there in a constructive manner), while simultaneously declaring that their opinions are truth and absolute.
PS: Also... wasn't the use of meme's banned on these forums? >.>
Actually, it has everything to do with the point. It shows that WotC actually cares what they put the D&D logo on, and arent' haphazardly tossing it out to every product they can for more money. This was the exact point the originial poster was trying to make, and the irony of it is that he made the exact opposite.
So yeah, still D&D. Keep trying, though.
There is nothing fundametally wrong with a D&D monopoly themed game, only with insisting that it is D&D just because it has the logo in it. And you're also missing that date you pointed out before--that was around the time 4e came out, when WotC and the D&D brand was still strong and hadn't suffered the failure that is 4e yet. Things might be different now in regards to what they're willing to do to get the D&D name out there.
Also D&D is never action-y, I know, because I read it on the internet.
"Action-y" has nothing to do with it. I have NO problem with that. D&D "rounds" are "historically" 6 seconds of "stuff."
If you make a round 0.1s I still have no problem with that -- and that's pretty **** "action-y."
The "major" problem *I* have with Neverwinter is the following...
Strength, Intelligence, Wisdom, Dexterity, Constitution, Charisma -- seem to have nearly no effect on characters in Neverwinter.
...but I don't know yet, because Cryptic hasn't told us much about the actual "characteristics" and how they interact.
Especially Cryptics own: Attack Power, Spell Power, Attack Crit Rating, Spell Crit Rating, Run Speed, Action Point Strength, Armor Penetration, Cool Down Reduction, Physical Mitigation, Magic Mitigation.
How does "Strength" influence Attack Power, and Armor Penetration ?
How does "Intelligence" or "Wisdom" influence Spell Power, and Spell Crit Rating?
Does "Charisma" affect merchant prices??
And without knowing how these historical/regular D&D Characteristics affect Cryptic MMO Generic Combat Engine Characteristics, how can we ever tell if that "Great Axe +2" is better than a "Great Axe +750 Armor Penetration?"
Currently, it feels that a Guardian Fighter with a Str 19 and a Dex of 10 is virtually indistinguishable from a Guardian Fighter with a Str 8 and a Dex of 20. (And yeah, I know you could never "roll" that in Neverwinter -- which is ANOTHER irritation!)
I also dislike the "pop a pill, get a skill" items and hopefully that'll evolve.
I do like the setting, the actiony combat feels pretty decent thus far.
I'm also hoping for "interactive" crafting ala Vanguard, EQ2, only hopefully better.
I cannot WAIT for The Foundry and hopefully will be trying to break that next beta weekend.
BUT -- It has only been ONE beta weekend so far.
I wish they took a page from Firefall and had a beta server running full time so we could add more bugs before release.
Especially when you, the mighty pilf3r decides what animals are what, this despite the fact the zoologists and biologists are telling you it is in fact, a horse, indeed even the creature that gave birth to the animal makes it obvious that it is a horse, but you refuse to accept it because: neeeeeeeeeerd raaaaaaaaaaaaaaage!!!
Not at all I can accept that not all DnD game especially video games will be the same just like not all horses are the same.
I mean you have Quarter horses, Morgan horses, Saddlebred horses, Thoroughbred horses, Standardbred horses, Arabians, Barbs, and Clydesdales but they all are in the same family.
Then you have cows, they can be saddled and passed off as horses but that does that mean they are horses, in the same way you can eat horse meat but does that make it taste like a big mac?
Umm is the shady car dealer BMW and they are saying it is a BMW? If not then your argument doesn't really apply.
I am not saying it is or isn't D&D just pointing out your example is not accurate.
What I mean is BMW has dealerships but like most dealerships not all the cars they sell are bmw some are used cars they took in exchange.
The analogy isn't great granted but my point is simple just because someone payed a company to slap a logo on their product doesn't mean the product is accurate, up to par or even deserving yet legal considerations sometimes force things. Look at what happened with Atari...
What I mean is BMW has dealerships but like most dealerships not all the cars they sell are bmw some are used cars they took in exchange.
The analogy isn't great granted but my point is simple just because someone payed a company to slap a logo on their product doesn't mean the product is accurate, up to par or even deserving yet legal considerations sometimes force things. Look at what happened with Atari...
Given the dealership being a BMW dealership I can agree it isn't a great analogy but with a shoehorn I can cram it into accurate
I totally agree that just because WotC slaps a logo on something and crowns it D&D doesn't make it D&D, expect maybe in the most general legal sense. What I mean by that is WotC will have some sway over any legal shenanigans if anything is every brought to court for intellectual property reasons
Given the dealership being a BMW dealership I can agree it isn't a great analogy but with a shoehorn I can cram it into accurate
I totally agree that just because WotC slaps a logo on something and crowns it D&D doesn't make it D&D, expect maybe in the most general legal sense. What I mean by that is WotC will have some sway over any legal shenanigans if anything is every brought to court for intellectual property reasons
Honestly I just don't even see how this game is comparable to dungeons and dragons the pen and paper game. But what really bothers me are the people who adamantly insist that this is really DnD because for it not to be somehow cheapens the game or makes people think less of it, when really that's kind of silly. This is nothing like the pen and paper game, and it doesn't really need to be.
Edit: Also, a better comparison would be Star Trek, the 2009 movie, would it not be? Sure it has the name, and the characters and the imagery, but it's not really star trek in theme or tone is it? And that's okay, on it's own merit it's a perfectly fine film, but you can't really compare it to the old tv show because they are kind of their own separate things.
Honestly I just don't even see how this game is comparable to dungeons and dragons the pen and paper game. But what really bothers me are the people who adamantly insist that this is really DnD because for it not to be somehow cheapens the game or makes people think less of it, when really that's kind of silly. This is nothing like the pen and paper game, and it doesn't really need to be.
My personal opinion like I have said earlier is I don't care either way. I will play the game, I will (hopefully) have fun, I will use the foundry to (hopefully) create fun adventures that people will like. I will use the D&D lore because it what the plot of the game is. Other than that I really don't care if people have the opinion it is or isn't. The only thing I care about is when people put forth opinion call it fact and try to mislead people with it on both sides.
My personal opinion like I have said earlier is I don't care either way. I will play the game, I will (hopefully) have fun, I will use the foundry to (hopefully) create fun adventures that people will like. I will use the D&D lore because it what the plot of the game is. Other than that I really don't care if people have the opinion it is or isn't. The only thing I care about is when people put forth opinion call it fact and try to mislead people with it on both sides.
And this is where I disagree, it really isn't a matter of opinion, just as there is the star trek tv show, and the 2009 Reboot. So to is there DnD the PnP game, and DnD the Neverwinter mmo, they're too different in design to be comparable really. Apples and oranges as they say.
And this is where I disagree, it really isn't a matter of opinion, just as there is the star trek tv show, and the 2009 Reboot. So to is there DnD the PnP game, and DnD the Neverwinter mmo, they're too different in design to be comparable really. Apples and oranges as they say.
Silly statment. First of all I can understand if they made this to follow one of the last action D&D games... that did not do super well. But this is following NWN1&2 And while yes this might be considered "rebooting" the D&D franchise this was toatlly not needed. NWN1 was one of the most popular games at it's time and STILLLLLLL has not only a following but there are STILL servers running the game. So the idea that it had to be rebooted is pure garbage.
Aside from that, some of us are pointing out that the biggest holes in the game are with the classes. Everything else is pretty close. But doing an mmo with more traditional class builds has never been attempted. Even with DDO people jsut assumed that "no one would like basic skills" ...... ? Why did someone try an mmo with those? Last I looked people playing NWN1 servers still find them great and the skills and builds to be solid. Why? Because it works. We've never had someone try it this way in an mmo. I'm doing a fair bit of work with the alpha community of the elder scrolls mmo and this is a hot debate again.. Skyrim style or morrowind style? Many vets favor the more indepth morrrowind style instead of the kid friendly skyrim where everything extra has been cut off.
So your statement is right in the sense that the game is different. But there is no need for it to be. NWN1 Worked as an mmo, the PW servers got as big as 1000 players and it worked. No one has tried that combo again. Meanwhile we have a surge of old style games coming into the marketplace and they are working. So why make oranges when apples are still in high demand.
Here is the sum of the argument from those who deny the clear reality, that this game is D&D, by any and all objective measure:
That's really all they are screaming.
+blablabla...
man!
This is nice try to elude all the arguments posted here and there to demonstrate that the only d&d taste of this game comes from the name and logo!
You are trying very hard to distract people from the sad truth :
THIS
IS
NOT
D
&
D
No, not even close, despite the name and the logo.
please, for example, explain to those people :
- How the high lvl of character customisation in d&d became reduced to a dps / tank / healer?
- Why the paragon and heroic paths became strangely very similar to the skill trees of games like WoW or Rift?
- Why the specific d&d characteritics and combat system suddenly became a thic undefined tasteless soup?
Those are only few of the numerous strange transformations that were made to transform d&d into a random heroic fantasy themepark, that could as well be called "the chronicles of zbooba" (yes i like that title ^^)
So your statement is right in the sense that the game is different. But there is no need for it to be. NWN1 Worked as an mmo, the PW servers got as big as 1000 players and it worked. No one has tried that combo again. Meanwhile we have a surge of old style games coming into the marketplace and they are working. So why make oranges when apples are still in high demand.
Firstly I wasn't arguing that Neverwinter needed a reboot, just that it kind of got one anyway. As to why? Couldn't tell you, they probably assume this type of streamlined approach will be safe bet, couldn't say for sure but who knows.
The point i'm making here is that Neverwinter online is a game that is using the name and aesthetic of DnD for the purposes of brand recognition and mass appeal, nothing more nothing less.
So, if someone was to flip through a D&D rulebook, look at some videos and declare, "D&D isn't a real roleplaying game", without ever playing, you'd consider their opinion on the subject valid and informed?
EDIT: And follow up question. Do you plan to play Neverwinter, even though it isn't D&D enough for you?
I surely would not dismiss their opinion outright. Nice strawman attempt.
And yes, I plan on playing the game. I also fully predict it will fall short for me and I'll move on to other games, just like previous Cryptic titles have underperformed or outright alienated me in the past. BUT...I will give this one a fair shake just to see if Cryptic finally "got it right".
Comments
It does if the people that hold the sacrosanct licencing rights say its a horse.
It also gives fanboys of the holders of that sacrosanct license the right to be excessively hostile, treat anyone that doesn't agree with them like an imbecile and call them names (even follow them to other threads and derail them with raging rants for merely posting their disagreeable views there in a constructive manner), while simultaneously declaring that their opinions are truth and absolute.
PS: Also... wasn't the use of meme's banned on these forums? >.>
There is nothing fundametally wrong with a D&D monopoly themed game, only with insisting that it is D&D just because it has the logo in it. And you're also missing that date you pointed out before--that was around the time 4e came out, when WotC and the D&D brand was still strong and hadn't suffered the failure that is 4e yet. Things might be different now in regards to what they're willing to do to get the D&D name out there.
Oh, no, no, if it doesn't have saving throws, it's not D&D. I know because I played the Caves of Chaos back in 1981.
Also D&D is never action-y, I know, because I read it on the internet.
Check out SHADOW on YouTube!
"Action-y" has nothing to do with it. I have NO problem with that. D&D "rounds" are "historically" 6 seconds of "stuff."
If you make a round 0.1s I still have no problem with that -- and that's pretty **** "action-y."
The "major" problem *I* have with Neverwinter is the following...
Strength, Intelligence, Wisdom, Dexterity, Constitution, Charisma -- seem to have nearly no effect on characters in Neverwinter.
...but I don't know yet, because Cryptic hasn't told us much about the actual "characteristics" and how they interact.
Especially Cryptics own: Attack Power, Spell Power, Attack Crit Rating, Spell Crit Rating, Run Speed, Action Point Strength, Armor Penetration, Cool Down Reduction, Physical Mitigation, Magic Mitigation.
How does "Strength" influence Attack Power, and Armor Penetration ?
How does "Intelligence" or "Wisdom" influence Spell Power, and Spell Crit Rating?
Does "Charisma" affect merchant prices??
And without knowing how these historical/regular D&D Characteristics affect Cryptic MMO Generic Combat Engine Characteristics, how can we ever tell if that "Great Axe +2" is better than a "Great Axe +750 Armor Penetration?"
Currently, it feels that a Guardian Fighter with a Str 19 and a Dex of 10 is virtually indistinguishable from a Guardian Fighter with a Str 8 and a Dex of 20. (And yeah, I know you could never "roll" that in Neverwinter -- which is ANOTHER irritation!)
I also dislike the "pop a pill, get a skill" items and hopefully that'll evolve.
I do like the setting, the actiony combat feels pretty decent thus far.
I'm also hoping for "interactive" crafting ala Vanguard, EQ2, only hopefully better.
I cannot WAIT for The Foundry and hopefully will be trying to break that next beta weekend.
BUT -- It has only been ONE beta weekend so far.
I wish they took a page from Firefall and had a beta server running full time so we could add more bugs before release.
SO, we'll see what further beta weekends bring.
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
Not at all I can accept that not all DnD game especially video games will be the same just like not all horses are the same.
I mean you have Quarter horses, Morgan horses, Saddlebred horses, Thoroughbred horses, Standardbred horses, Arabians, Barbs, and Clydesdales but they all are in the same family.
Then you have cows, they can be saddled and passed off as horses but that does that mean they are horses, in the same way you can eat horse meat but does that make it taste like a big mac?
Oh so if you go to a shady bmw car dealer and he tries to sell you a Hyundai claiming it is a bmw because he has the bmw logo I should believe it?
Sure WotC has branded this game that doesn't mean it gonna be great, Daggerdale anyone.
Anyway my point is you shouldn't believe everything that a company tells you just because they own rights to something.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Umm is the shady car dealer BMW and they are saying it is a BMW? If not then your argument doesn't really apply.
I am not saying it is or isn't D&D just pointing out your example is not accurate.
What I mean is BMW has dealerships but like most dealerships not all the cars they sell are bmw some are used cars they took in exchange.
The analogy isn't great granted but my point is simple just because someone payed a company to slap a logo on their product doesn't mean the product is accurate, up to par or even deserving yet legal considerations sometimes force things. Look at what happened with Atari...
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
Given the dealership being a BMW dealership I can agree it isn't a great analogy but with a shoehorn I can cram it into accurate
I totally agree that just because WotC slaps a logo on something and crowns it D&D doesn't make it D&D, expect maybe in the most general legal sense. What I mean by that is WotC will have some sway over any legal shenanigans if anything is every brought to court for intellectual property reasons
Honestly I just don't even see how this game is comparable to dungeons and dragons the pen and paper game. But what really bothers me are the people who adamantly insist that this is really DnD because for it not to be somehow cheapens the game or makes people think less of it, when really that's kind of silly. This is nothing like the pen and paper game, and it doesn't really need to be.
Edit: Also, a better comparison would be Star Trek, the 2009 movie, would it not be? Sure it has the name, and the characters and the imagery, but it's not really star trek in theme or tone is it? And that's okay, on it's own merit it's a perfectly fine film, but you can't really compare it to the old tv show because they are kind of their own separate things.
My personal opinion like I have said earlier is I don't care either way. I will play the game, I will (hopefully) have fun, I will use the foundry to (hopefully) create fun adventures that people will like. I will use the D&D lore because it what the plot of the game is. Other than that I really don't care if people have the opinion it is or isn't. The only thing I care about is when people put forth opinion call it fact and try to mislead people with it on both sides.
And this is where I disagree, it really isn't a matter of opinion, just as there is the star trek tv show, and the 2009 Reboot. So to is there DnD the PnP game, and DnD the Neverwinter mmo, they're too different in design to be comparable really. Apples and oranges as they say.
Silly statment. First of all I can understand if they made this to follow one of the last action D&D games... that did not do super well. But this is following NWN1&2 And while yes this might be considered "rebooting" the D&D franchise this was toatlly not needed. NWN1 was one of the most popular games at it's time and STILLLLLLL has not only a following but there are STILL servers running the game. So the idea that it had to be rebooted is pure garbage.
Aside from that, some of us are pointing out that the biggest holes in the game are with the classes. Everything else is pretty close. But doing an mmo with more traditional class builds has never been attempted. Even with DDO people jsut assumed that "no one would like basic skills" ...... ? Why did someone try an mmo with those? Last I looked people playing NWN1 servers still find them great and the skills and builds to be solid. Why? Because it works. We've never had someone try it this way in an mmo. I'm doing a fair bit of work with the alpha community of the elder scrolls mmo and this is a hot debate again.. Skyrim style or morrowind style? Many vets favor the more indepth morrrowind style instead of the kid friendly skyrim where everything extra has been cut off.
So your statement is right in the sense that the game is different. But there is no need for it to be. NWN1 Worked as an mmo, the PW servers got as big as 1000 players and it worked. No one has tried that combo again. Meanwhile we have a surge of old style games coming into the marketplace and they are working. So why make oranges when apples are still in high demand.
man!
This is nice try to elude all the arguments posted here and there to demonstrate that the only d&d taste of this game comes from the name and logo!
You are trying very hard to distract people from the sad truth :
THIS
IS
NOT
D
&
D
No, not even close, despite the name and the logo.
please, for example, explain to those people :
- How the high lvl of character customisation in d&d became reduced to a dps / tank / healer?
- Why the paragon and heroic paths became strangely very similar to the skill trees of games like WoW or Rift?
- Why the specific d&d characteritics and combat system suddenly became a thic undefined tasteless soup?
Those are only few of the numerous strange transformations that were made to transform d&d into a random heroic fantasy themepark, that could as well be called "the chronicles of zbooba" (yes i like that title ^^)
oh! and i love action in d&d!
Firstly I wasn't arguing that Neverwinter needed a reboot, just that it kind of got one anyway. As to why? Couldn't tell you, they probably assume this type of streamlined approach will be safe bet, couldn't say for sure but who knows.
The point i'm making here is that Neverwinter online is a game that is using the name and aesthetic of DnD for the purposes of brand recognition and mass appeal, nothing more nothing less.
I surely would not dismiss their opinion outright. Nice strawman attempt.
And yes, I plan on playing the game. I also fully predict it will fall short for me and I'll move on to other games, just like previous Cryptic titles have underperformed or outright alienated me in the past. BUT...I will give this one a fair shake just to see if Cryptic finally "got it right".
Occam's Razor makes the cutting clean.