The most funny part is that even if Cryptic had made this game more in line with D&D mechanics, they still would scream that this is not D&D .
so you tell us this is chocolate ice cream, but we realize that it is coffe in fact and disagree, then you tell us that even if you had added some chocolate into it we still would disagree? salesman of the year!
It' also funny how they use that statement to make it look like the whole game will fail just because of the "fact" that "this isn't D&D". As if some game mechanics (that are even from past editions of the Pen and Paper game) would make this game the king of MMOs instantly.
this game will fail not because it is not d&d but because it is just another random heroic fantasy themepark that have NOTHING better to offer than all the other ones already released or coming soon. The fact is that if instead of aiming the casual manga generation console player, they had aimed the d&d players, they would have had tons of faithfull fans, all those guys that worship baldur's gate, neverwinter nights, planescape torment, etc. Unfortunately, the only taste of d&d in this game comes from the logo.
I get why there are many people thinkng that in their opinion the game isn't enough D&Dlike, but I keep asking: Why is it just a big deal for some people? Who cares if my Strength of 14 gives me a +2 modifier to my attack roll and damage or it gives me +4% to damage? Is that really everything that defines D&D for some people? Really? :rolleyes:
it is a very big deal, let me explain again : if we want a random heroic fantasy themepark, we have a huge choice, and unfortunately for cryptic, this one is nowhere near to be the best.
If you want to eat chocolate, you buy chocolate, same logic.
Is it me or most of the people that defend the game blindly are the people that payd for founder's pack?
Your question's logic is flawed. People who have bought the $60 and $200 dollar Founder's packs could play the game this past weekend. Therefore any defense of or attack upon the game by those people, is an informed decision. Not blindly defending.
Wow....it is uncanny how accurate my predictions were, I called almost two years ago that the forums would be full of folks screaming it's not D&D and that would be okay if they said that and moved on; it having to reiterate it hourly and that will go on as long as the game is live just like the incessant "This isn't Star Trek" crew over at STO.
I remember that, and sometimes those threads still popup.
Is it me or most of the people that defend the game blindly are the people that payd for founder's pack? The question is who are you trying to convince that this is and great d&d game us or youreself ?
Oh, most of us don't "defend" the game blindly. You know, we have already played it and many of us like what we have seen . And to whom I have to convince that this is a D&D game? Yeah, you are right. I have just to convince me and for me this is a D&D game as I already said. I also can understand why other people may not share the same opinion. Do you have any problem with that? Is it so hard to believe that there are people who like this game and who are fine with it being D&D?
so you tell us this is chocolate ice cream, but we realize that it is coffe in fact and disagree, then you tell us that even if you had added some chocolate into it we still would disagree? salesman of the year!
What I wanted to say is this: haters gonna hate. You can make this game with D&D mechanics and there will still be people who complain about that it is not enough D&D. Same old discussion with every new edition of a roleplaying game. You have two options. You can either accept your coffee and enjoy it or leave it alone because it isn't the chocolate ice you were expecting. So why exactly are you still here?
this game will fail not because it is not d&d but because it is just another random heroic fantasy themepark that have NOTHING better to offer than all the other ones already released or coming soon. The fact is that if instead of aiming the casual manga generation console player, they had aimed the d&d players, they would have had tons of faithfull fans, all those guys that worship baldur's gate, neverwinter nights, planescape torment, etc. Unfortunately, the only taste of d&d in this game comes from the logo.
The game will have some nice things that other games don't have (for example the Foundry) and it will have its share of D&D fans, as you can see in this poll. What people like you have to realise is that this isn't Neverwinter Nights 3 rebuild as an MMORPG and never was planned as something like that. I understand that you are somewhat disappointed, but to repeat my question: if you think that this game will fail so badly anyway, why are you still here arguing with people who actually like the game as it is?
it is a very big deal, let me explain again : if we want a random heroic fantasy themepark, we have a huge choice, and unfortunately for cryptic, this one is nowhere near to be the best.
If you want to eat chocolate, you buy chocolate, same logic.
Fortunately you don't have to buy Neverwinter and you are also not forced to play it. So what? Go play another game. How about Dungeons & Dragons Online? Last I played that game it wasn't that bad and was much closer to the D&D mechanics (at least the ones of 3rd edition).
You can't do anything about it. WotC said this game is D&D, so it has the D&D logo and takes place in the Forgotten Realms. If you don't like it, move on.
Your question's logic is flawed. People who have bought the $60 and $200 dollar Founder's packs could play the game this past weekend. Therefore any defense of or attack upon the game by those people, is an informed decision. Not blindly defending.
I don't think there is flaw in the logic. The "informed decision" fails to present any logical argument upto now. The beta is not under NDA. Those watching more videos will have more knowledge than those only playing it once. Infact it is very logical that people would be having a euphoric reaction after playing the game and would be aggressively defensive.
Once that euphoria wears off, they would be the ones running with pitchforks. It is a pretty common behavior. People try to "defend" something even wrongly because they think it is in the best interests of what they like - only to end up harming it more than anybody else.
The game is not based on 4e rules at all - it only fakes an appearance and to even suggest that it is anywhere near 4e rules - or any other ruleset for that matter is incorrect. Infact it is has fundamental differences from D&D itself - in theme, in stats, in mechanics - in everything. These are too drastic to not be glaringly visible. Only people blinded by glitter of FX cannot see it.
Wow....it is uncanny how accurate my predictions were, I called almost two years ago that the forums would be full of folks screaming it's not D&D and that would be okay if they said that and moved on; it having to reiterate it hourly and that will go on as long as the game is live just like the incessant "This isn't Star Trek" crew over at STO.
You know you have done this before - blindly "supporting" aggressively only to be bum-hurt later. Instead of falsely supporting it you should go for facts. You cannot make it what it is not - appreciate it for what it is, not what it is not.
Look, if you want to play D&D on the computer with your friends, I mean REALLY play D&D, then you've got several great options. *snip*
And if you want to play a generic fantasy MMO/Online RPG that isn't D&D, you got far, Far, FAAAAAAAARRRR, more options, more modern and/or better executed than any of those examples of online RPGs that you mention provide a "true" D&D experience. Because the MMO market is way, WAAAAAAAAYYYYY over saturated with them to point where every other ten MMOs is yet another generic fantasy MMO. We dont NEED another one of those, what we do NEED is a modern (not 10+ year old NWN1) version of an online D&D game (with Cryptic-level appearance custozation, and an actual jump feature, unlike the old NWN's). Which is why any time you get a game like this table top players will complain regardless of how unfeasible making such a game at this point it might be.
I know how Cryptic works--I've been playing their games for a while. I know that they have their own engine, which the created with the purpose of coughing out games faster by basing them around that engine works. But that doesn't change that when I see a D&D computer game, I want to play D&D in a digital medium. Not some generic fantasy MMO with the D&D logo in it. Hence, I whine--a lot. Now can I have some cheese to go with it?
The most funny part is that even if Cryptic had made this game more in line with D&D mechanics, they still would scream that this is not D&D .
You mean like they did when bioware made NWN?
It' also funny how they use that statement to make it look like the whole game will fail just because of the "fact" that "this isn't D&D". As if some game mechanics (that are even from past editions of the Pen and Paper game) would make this game the king of MMOs instantly.
Could you provide an actual quote of a post stating that? Or are you just putting words in the posts of people on the other side of this argument in general?
I don't know much of D&D besides video game. I love fantasy game, fantasy books and I know I would of loved PnP.
I grew up in small little village in West Virginia.. lol and no not west of the State Virginia. I didn't do much besides hunt and fish. I gathered a little berries and such, but a hunter was my main profession. I soon grew some skill in carpentry and found myself on top of homes. Fixing roofs started draining all the life and time out of me. I needed more needed the hunt again, I needed an adventure!
Off to the seas with me! I became a Pirate arghhhh (Navy Sailor). I rode the Noble White-Tail(USS Pennsylvania) and served her Captain well. To well I was giving grand plundering rights and was sent overseas!(To Italy) I terrized all of europe with my hooten and looten. What a grand adventure it was.
Ten years later and now I'm back in this same small villiage... a king of laying pipe(Pipe Fitters Union) I do tell you this may not be an exact D&D adventure,but in my eyes it will be. I smell the hunt of excitement and adventure! Instead of plundering I will hold shield and sword to defend NEVERWINTER!!!!!
OOC: Sorry got carried away. I see this as a D&D game but I have little XP with D&D. I really want it to be a grand adventure, and maybe this game opens more D&D to me. So I picked yes and hope for a great time. Wife will be at my side once again in a mmo(wich she told me about this game cuz she reads alot D&D novels) My son will start is first adventure in a MMO and I am really excited about that.
I could care less if this game is D&D enough or not. The statement is so subjective to be almost nonsensical. I want to have fun. I want to go on adventures with my friends. It does not matter if someone with cheeto-stained fingers wants to argue over semantics.
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klangeddinMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 882Arc User
I could care less if this game is D&D enough or not. The statement is so subjective to be almost nonsensical. I want to have fun. I want to go on adventures with my friends. It does not matter if someone with cheeto-stained fingers wants to argue over semantics.
I could care less if this game is D&D enough or not. The statement is so subjective to be almost nonsensical. I want to have fun. I want to go on adventures with my friends. It does not matter if someone with cheeto-stained fingers wants to argue over semantics.
Then you have nothing to contribute to this discussion
This isn't about whether or not people are allowed to have fun in a game--any game--without a care in the world about what that game's identity is or isn't. This is about whether or not slapping a D&D logo (or any logo for that matter) in a game and calling it D&D (or whatever that corresponding logo might be) is enough to make it so.
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shiaikaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
Is it me or most of the people that defend the game blindly are the people that payd for founder's pack? The question is who are you trying to convince that this is and great d&d game us or youreself ?
Blindly? Like the people that blindly attacks it, you mean? You have a long history here, mister.
But yeah, sorry if we disagree. Sorry if we don't allow you to freely bash the game. Sorry if we don't say yes to whatever you throw at the screen. Of course that 4E is not D&D. Or 3E!! Or whatever you decide! Let us bow down to your TRUTH and worship you like the new savior!! Because we cannot disagree with you and surely it has to do with us being weak minded and needing to convince ourselves that we didn't waste money.
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jaelrinyaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
Okay, where do we stand so far?
Why is this game not D&D?
- the mechanics are handled very different
- real time action combat instead of round based combat
- it lacks the depht of the real D&D (e.g. character/class customization)
Why is this game D&D?
- Wizards of the Coast say so
- it plays in an official D&D campaign world (Forgotten Realms/Neverwinter)
- it uses lots of iconic and recognizable names and things (e.g. monsters, items, classes, races)
Some other facts that may or may not support the points above:
- Neverwinter will come with user generated content (Foundry)
For everyone the points that actually define D&D are different and that is the reason many of us disagree. But is it really important to have some kind of absolute and objective definition of "what makes D&D what it is"? As we can see, we can't even agree on the question what actually defines D&D. Players can't even agree on that when a new edition of the pen & paper game comes out (the infamous "edition wars"). So it is very unlikly that we come to an agreement here.
I can understand people who are disappointed and have expected something different from Neverwinter. Some may call me a fanboy that I support Cryptic. But I like their take on MMORPGs, I can't do anything against that. That's just my liking. As I tested the game I also thought "This actually hasn't much to do with D&D mechanics". I thought about that while playing the game but it still felt like a D&D game. Not because of the mechanics... but because of the background stories, because of the kobolds who looked like D&D kobolds, because of the dark elves who were drow, because of the gods who I know from my P&P sourcebooks etc. For me, the essence of D&D is not just the mechanics. The mechanics even change from time to time drastically. It is the feeling, the lore the iconic things and names. And those things are there.
A few weeks ago I bought the Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition. The game uses an even older edition (AD&D 2nd), it is not like the D&D people are used to who played Neverwinter Nights nor the 4th edition of D&D. But it still feels like D&D because all the elements I love are there, even though the classes where a lot more restrictive as in later editions or the combat was a lot more simplified. THAC0 anyone?
You may still disagree with me and I'm fine with that. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to prove to you that Neverwinter is in all regards a D&D game. I'm just trying to show you my perspective and why I think otherwise.
Sorry if I may have sounded a bit "fanboyish", sometimes I just can't shut up .
Of course, if you strip away the D&D from Neverwinter, what is actually left? Another fantasy MMORPG destined to fail? Maybe. I also think that Neverwinter won't be a huge success. But it don't has to be a huge success to be profitable for Cryptic/Perfect World. What I have seen in beta is that the combat works out very good and the Foundry will be the unique feature that may attract more people than the generic fantasy MMORPG. Would it attract a lot more people with hardcore D&D mechanics? I doubt it. We pen & paper roleplayers are actually a dying breed and tend to overrate our numbers and influence by far. But that's just my opinion.
Fortunately you don't have to buy Neverwinter and you are also not forced to play it. So what? Go play another game. How about Dungeons & Dragons Online? Last I played that game it wasn't that bad and was much closer to the D&D mechanics (at least the ones of 3rd edition).
You can't do anything about it. WotC said this game is D&D, so it has the D&D logo and takes place in the Forgotten Realms. If you don't like it, move on.
sorry mate but it is not a matter of me buying this game or not (i already made myself clear about it), no, it is all about debating about this game beeing d&d or not.
anyway...
Let's take the chocolate again, ok?
i love chocolate, and it has been a long time, very long time since i haven't eaten a good one. Then I see an advert telling that this special shop will sell the best chocolate ever but in 2 years. Woaw! 2 years! the best chocolate?!!! I'll wait!!! during the next two years I keep myself informed about the shop, the making of the chocolate, I tell all my friends that it's gonna be something great! I take the defense of that shop when people come to me and say that they tasted this shop food before and it wasn't that great, etc.
Then comes the day!
I come into the shop, happy, smiling, ready to congratulate everyone and to buy tons of this chocolate... until I realize that it is coffee!
I express my disappointment, I ask why they advertised for chocolate when they knew that they were going to sale coffee...
then a random customer, that doesn't know much about chocolate, that likes coffee, comes and tell me :
you are not obliged to buy! if you don't like coffee then you can leave the shop!
...
I believe you guessed who stands for the random customer role.
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jaelrinyaMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
sorry mate but it is not a matter of me buying this game or not (i already made myself clear about it), no, it is all about debating about this game beeing d&d or not.
anyway...
Let's take the chocolate again, ok?
i love chocolate, and it has been a long time, very long time since i haven't eaten a good one. Then I see an advert telling that this special shop will sell the best chocolate ever but in 2 years. Woaw! 2 years! the best chocolate?!!! I'll wait!!! during the next two years I keep myself informed about the shop, the making of the chocolate, I tell all my friends that it's gonna be something great! I take the defense of that shop when people come to me and say that they tasted this shop food before and it wasn't that great, etc.
Then comes the day!
I come into the shop, happy, smiling, ready to congratulate everyone and to buy tons of this chocolate... until I realize that it is coffee!
I express my disappointment, I ask why they advertised for chocolate when they knew that they were going to sale coffee...
then a random customer, that doesn't know much about chocolate, that likes coffee, comes and tell me :
you are not obliged to buy! if you don't like coffee then you can leave the shop!
...
I believe you guessed who stands for the random customer role.
Okay, I got what you are trying to say. Sorry that I was a bit harsh, sometimes... yeah... . Maybe look at my last post above yours. I tried to write a bit more about my personal perspective.
As I have understood, you are still going to play Neverwinter even though it isn't what you were expecting? Or won't you play the game at all because of this? I'm just curious.
For what i've had the opportunity to play so far i am not really attracted, and won't buy any pack for now.
But i'll keep an eye on this game, just in case...
When I was playing in the beta this past weekend, I had the following experience while exploring the (truly excellent) quest location called the Clockwork Tomb:
I'm walking down a dark, creepy hallway, deep inside this tomb. I begin to notice webs here and there, and I look up to the ceiling high above, where I see increasing amounts of webbing and possibly some web cocoons. I'm still looking up as I cautiously advance, thinking "There will be spiders ambushing me soon" and sort of mentally congratulating myself for being so clever to notice environmental details like that and thus be prepared for what's going to happen.
Suddenly, I run face-first smack into the side of an enormous Gelatinous Cube, which immediately engulfs me into itself and begins to rapidly eat away my hit points with its acidic digestion. I hadn't seen it ahead, OF COURSE I hadn't seen it, because that's how Gelatinous Cubes work. I freak out, wholly surprised, and struggle desperately to get away, but it's very difficult to escape, I can only pull myself free from the creature slowly and agonizingly. After I've extricated myself, I look back and see that my companion is not so fortunate, and remains inside the Gelatinous Cube, already dead.
I start laughing and grinning, and exclaim out loud, "YES! Now THIS is D&D!"
To me, this is such a classic, quintessential D&D-specific experience. Neverwinter is FULL of moments like this, where someone who has played and loved several editions of D&D (including 4E, which just might be my favorite edition) over the course of many years will inevitably stop and feel that familiar joy of being immersed in a real Dungeons and Dragons adventure once again.
sorry mate but it is not a matter of me buying this game or not (i already made myself clear about it), no, it is all about debating about this game beeing d&d or not.
anyway...
Let's take the chocolate again, ok?
i love chocolate, and it has been a long time, very long time since i haven't eaten a good one. Then I see an advert telling that this special shop will sell the best chocolate ever but in 2 years. Woaw! 2 years! the best chocolate?!!! I'll wait!!! during the next two years I keep myself informed about the shop, the making of the chocolate, I tell all my friends that it's gonna be something great! I take the defense of that shop when people come to me and say that they tasted this shop food before and it wasn't that great, etc.
Then comes the day!
I come into the shop, happy, smiling, ready to congratulate everyone and to buy tons of this chocolate... until I realize that it is coffee!
I express my disappointment, I ask why they advertised for chocolate when they knew that they were going to sale coffee...
then a random customer, that doesn't know much about chocolate, that likes coffee, comes and tell me :
you are not obliged to buy! if you don't like coffee then you can leave the shop!
...
I believe you guessed who stands for the random customer role.
Do they have chocolate coffee creamer? I have had some great chocolate creamers to would make you swear you wearing drinking chocolate and not coffee.
Is Hot Chocolate, chocolate? It's in the name. They use some cocoa in it. But wouldn't that be Hot Water/Milk, with a choclate flavoring? They have called it Hot Chocolate for a very long time, but does that really make it Hot Chocolate?
You buy a box/can of dry chocolate powder called Hot Chocolate, then on the back it gives you the directions how to finish it yourself,
by adding hot water/milk. You can add more or use less water/milk to your personal taste.
That's what Neverwinter is to me. It is Hot Chocolate, and how much water/milk you add to it is very subject to personal tastes. To some too much water will leave a bad taste in anothers mouth, likewise, not enough milk will leave another someone else unhappy.
Although, there could be those people that prefer vinegar... :eek:
Then you have nothing to contribute to this discussion
This isn't about whether or not people are allowed to have fun in a game--any game--without a care in the world about what that game's identity is or isn't. This is about whether or not slapping a D&D logo (or any logo for that matter) in a game and calling it D&D (or whatever that corresponding logo might be) is enough to make it so.
And what pray tell have you contributed? You have succeeded in wasting time debating irrelevant details. You have sidetracked the discussion of the game from important points of fact to subjective, meaningless details that serve little to no purpose other than to vent your frustrations. In effect you have served your ego, not the arguement and you have achieved you goal of making this about you and not the game.
This game has flaws and it has positive characteristics. This hand-wringing over a label applied to it is a waste of time and energy. My contribution to this discussion is the most important one of all: pointing out how senseless it is to argue about labels that don't matter. Let's debate content, classes, itemization and the role of solo vs. group...ya know, real issues, not this irrelavant drivel.
Only if it has actual chocolate in it. Otherwise is something else.
If you take something (like say "chocolate") and use it as the key ingredient in something you cook, so long as the process you use doesn't change its chemical composition somehow into something else, the resulting product will be that thing (or a derivative, such as chocolate drink, chocolate puddin, chocolate icecream, etc.) no matter what you do with it. However, if you take something else (like say "carob" *cringes*), and prepared it to look, smell or taste similar to something else without actually being that thing, then it isn't the thing itself. Its merely a doppelganger trying to pass itself out as the thing itself and no matter how many people claim it's delicious (some people like carob) it will never be the thing itself. Because people liking something doesn't make it something else, it only makes it something they like.
For me, this doesn’t seem like D&D. In my opinion, the character customization does matter. I don’t know if there will be any future development in characters, so we’ll just have to wait and see. I don’t like the idea that if I were to roll a Ranger I might have to choose between a hand-held weapon and a bow, then from that point on, that’s all I could ever use. I don’t like the idea I may not be able to build up a hefty spell book on a Wizard and select spells according to different challenges I face.
D&D mechanics have different features in monsters such as a damage resistance. This give the monsters character too, such as a devil being immune to fire. This is one reason I may want to select different spells or weapons prior to embarking on an adventure. It seems that without such traits, the monsters are all the same, just as the PC’s are. My guess is that there are no such traits here. The reason I guess this is that if you have 2 spells, magic missle & ray of frost, then if a monster is immune or resistant to those spells, it would render a “Control Wizard” useless for the most part. This would be unfair to people who desire to play the Wizard. Likewise, if a monster were highly resistant to piercing damage, someone who can only shoot a bow would become equally useless. Thus, I can only anticipate that monsters may all be homogenous as well, with some traits slightly modified (a bit stronger, a bit more hit points), but not much else.
The heart of D&D (IMHO) is imagination and having the only difference between character to character and monster to monster being the graphics doesn’t cut it. Without any ability to swap out spells, weapons, train in different areas, and have a broader selection of methods to interact with the world, then other aspects of the game become bland since everyone’s limited powers have to work equally on all monsters in all situations. This severely limits any real variety of encounters, dungeons, or play style. The only difference in anything becomes the graphics you see.
Consequently, it strikes me as interesting that people would look at the graphics and state that since it looks like D&D, it must feel like it too. The most recent video I watched was one on character creation. When I loaded it, after seeing what I saw up to that point, I was not surprised that around 95% of the “customization” was graphics-oriented. You get to choose how your character looks, not much else. D&D should be much richer than this.
Some folks say that the kiddies who play MMO’s today won’t like it. I think that might be wrong. D&D is a classic, great game and I believe it could stand on its own legs. D&D itself started out rather short on customization and developed more and more into an engine of imagination. You, the player, got to choose how your hero would be. Cryptic seems afraid to embrace this. D&D attracted so many people for so long that nobody can honestly say it doesn’t have merit. The folks who grew up and only know cycle cooling & rigid role play style might actually be surprised how fun it can be to do more. It reminds me of a skier who’s only ever gone down the bunny slopes & thinks that’s all there is. I don’t think translating D&D into a video game needs to be rule-by-rule but the heart of it is to imagine your hero and build the hero you have in mind – the rules being the guide, not the overlord. There’s nothing that says there cannot be options for people wanting spoon fed builds, but I’d like to see more options.
I hope the best for this game & I’m here because I’m interested. The game looks like it could be fun, but I believe it can be potentially great if they open up the characterization & options available to players. In other words, make it more like D&D.
Prevalent details that are actually relevant to this discussion and the actual arguments being made.
You have succeeded in wasting time debating irrelevant details.
Discussions about how genuine a game's depiction of D&D (or any other relevant system) are relevant to any game claiming to be D&D (or other system).
You have sidetracked the discussion of the game from important points of fact to subjective, meaningless details that serve little to no purpose other than to vent your frustrations.
I have sidetracked nothing. There are plenty of other threads on these boards. You are not obligated to particiate in this discussion if it doesn't suit your interest, and don't get to determine for others what details have meaning or purpose based on your personal interests.
In effect you have served your ego, not the arguement and you have achieved you goal of making this about you and not the game.
As opposed to claiming that...?
This game has flaws and it has positive characteristics. This hand-wringing over a label applied to it is a waste of time and energy. My contribution to this discussion is the most important one of all: pointing out how senseless it is to argue about labels that don't matter. Let's debate content, classes, itemization and the role of solo vs. group...ya know, real issues, not this irrelavant drivel.
...Because you get to determine for everyone else what is or isn't important for everyone else, or what they get to discuss on these boards?
Sorry you feel threatened by people having discussions that should in no way affect your ability to discuss the topics you feel are important (to YOU) on these boards or to have fun in the game. But you don't see me going into a PvP thread and telling them to stop discussing PvP because I don't PvP anymore, PvP isn't in yet and Cryptic sucks at PvP content and features anyways*.
*actually I may say this last part, but only as a warning to tell them not to get their hopes up, rather than to tell them to stop discussing PvP altogether.
You buy a box/can of dry chocolate powder called Hot Chocolate, then on the back it gives you the directions how to finish it yourself, by adding hot water/milk. You can add more or use less water/milk to your personal taste.
That's what Neverwinter is to me. It is Hot Chocolate, and how much water/milk you add to it is very subject to personal tastes.
Aye, there's the problem -- Cryptic "Hot Chocolate" almost completely ignored the manufacturer's suggested recipe and gave us a teaspoon of cocoa powder to a gallon of milk. Well, ya, I like milk, and this milk seems slightly darker than regular milk (if you squint funny), but it really fails to satisfy that chocolate craving.
Aye, there's the problem -- Cryptic "Hot Chocolate" almost completely ignored the manufacturer's suggested recipe and gave us a teaspoon of cocoa powder to a gallon of milk. Well, ya, I like milk, and this milk seems slightly darker than regular milk (if you squint funny), but it really fails to satisfy that chocolate craving.
That isn't what WotC has allowed. WotC Still have weekly conferences with the game content producers. EVERYTHING must be approved by WotC. This Hot Chocloate has been "D&D" certified by WotC. You putting in dark milk is different, but if that's the way you like your cup, so be it.
Discussions about how genuine a game's depiction of D&D (or any other relevant system) are relevant to any game claiming to be D&D (or other system).
D&D isn't just a system. In fact, the system part of D&D has its own name, that doesn't contain the words "dungeons" or "dragons". The system is just a small part of D&D.
That isn't what WotC has allowed. WotC Still have weekly conferences with the game content producers. EVERYTHING must be approved by WotC. This Hot Chocloate has been "D&D" certified by WotC. You putting in dark milk is different, but if that's the way you like your cup, so be it.
In this case WotC certified the equivalent of printing a Ferarri T-Shirt instead of making a car . Sure, you can wear it, but it doesn't mean you drive a Ferarri. Cryptic got the D&D sticker, but it doesn't mean we'll play a D&D game. But hey, Cryptic's thoughts must have been "most people are happy with the T-shirt", and they cost WAY less to make!"
Your question's logic is flawed. People who have bought the $60 and $200 dollar Founder's packs could play the game this past weekend. Therefore any defense of or attack upon the game by those people, is an informed decision. Not blindly defending.
We all have seen the streams from beta. You know nothing more or less
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kimonagiMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
What do you mean we know nothing? What is it that you believe was hidden from us? The only thing i know nothing about is PvP...
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so you tell us this is chocolate ice cream, but we realize that it is coffe in fact and disagree, then you tell us that even if you had added some chocolate into it we still would disagree? salesman of the year!
this game will fail not because it is not d&d but because it is just another random heroic fantasy themepark that have NOTHING better to offer than all the other ones already released or coming soon. The fact is that if instead of aiming the casual manga generation console player, they had aimed the d&d players, they would have had tons of faithfull fans, all those guys that worship baldur's gate, neverwinter nights, planescape torment, etc. Unfortunately, the only taste of d&d in this game comes from the logo.
it is a very big deal, let me explain again : if we want a random heroic fantasy themepark, we have a huge choice, and unfortunately for cryptic, this one is nowhere near to be the best.
If you want to eat chocolate, you buy chocolate, same logic.
Your question's logic is flawed. People who have bought the $60 and $200 dollar Founder's packs could play the game this past weekend. Therefore any defense of or attack upon the game by those people, is an informed decision. Not blindly defending.
Neverwinter Wiki
I remember that, and sometimes those threads still popup.
Neverwinter Wiki
What I wanted to say is this: haters gonna hate. You can make this game with D&D mechanics and there will still be people who complain about that it is not enough D&D. Same old discussion with every new edition of a roleplaying game. You have two options. You can either accept your coffee and enjoy it or leave it alone because it isn't the chocolate ice you were expecting. So why exactly are you still here?
The game will have some nice things that other games don't have (for example the Foundry) and it will have its share of D&D fans, as you can see in this poll. What people like you have to realise is that this isn't Neverwinter Nights 3 rebuild as an MMORPG and never was planned as something like that. I understand that you are somewhat disappointed, but to repeat my question: if you think that this game will fail so badly anyway, why are you still here arguing with people who actually like the game as it is?
Fortunately you don't have to buy Neverwinter
You can't do anything about it. WotC said this game is D&D, so it has the D&D logo and takes place in the Forgotten Realms. If you don't like it, move on.
Once that euphoria wears off, they would be the ones running with pitchforks. It is a pretty common behavior. People try to "defend" something even wrongly because they think it is in the best interests of what they like - only to end up harming it more than anybody else.
The game is not based on 4e rules at all - it only fakes an appearance and to even suggest that it is anywhere near 4e rules - or any other ruleset for that matter is incorrect. Infact it is has fundamental differences from D&D itself - in theme, in stats, in mechanics - in everything. These are too drastic to not be glaringly visible. Only people blinded by glitter of FX cannot see it. You know you have done this before - blindly "supporting" aggressively only to be bum-hurt later. Instead of falsely supporting it you should go for facts. You cannot make it what it is not - appreciate it for what it is, not what it is not.
And if you want to play a generic fantasy MMO/Online RPG that isn't D&D, you got far, Far, FAAAAAAAARRRR, more options, more modern and/or better executed than any of those examples of online RPGs that you mention provide a "true" D&D experience. Because the MMO market is way, WAAAAAAAAYYYYY over saturated with them to point where every other ten MMOs is yet another generic fantasy MMO. We dont NEED another one of those, what we do NEED is a modern (not 10+ year old NWN1) version of an online D&D game (with Cryptic-level appearance custozation, and an actual jump feature, unlike the old NWN's). Which is why any time you get a game like this table top players will complain regardless of how unfeasible making such a game at this point it might be.
I know how Cryptic works--I've been playing their games for a while. I know that they have their own engine, which the created with the purpose of coughing out games faster by basing them around that engine works. But that doesn't change that when I see a D&D computer game, I want to play D&D in a digital medium. Not some generic fantasy MMO with the D&D logo in it. Hence, I whine--a lot. Now can I have some cheese to go with it?
EXACTLY! ^^^
You mean like they did when bioware made NWN?
Could you provide an actual quote of a post stating that? Or are you just putting words in the posts of people on the other side of this argument in general?
Actually, my graphics card isn't the best. I'll have to enjoy/despise the game based more on the mechanics, then glitter.
Neverwinter Wiki
I grew up in small little village in West Virginia.. lol and no not west of the State Virginia. I didn't do much besides hunt and fish. I gathered a little berries and such, but a hunter was my main profession. I soon grew some skill in carpentry and found myself on top of homes. Fixing roofs started draining all the life and time out of me. I needed more needed the hunt again, I needed an adventure!
Off to the seas with me! I became a Pirate arghhhh (Navy Sailor). I rode the Noble White-Tail(USS Pennsylvania) and served her Captain well. To well I was giving grand plundering rights and was sent overseas!(To Italy) I terrized all of europe with my hooten and looten. What a grand adventure it was.
Ten years later and now I'm back in this same small villiage... a king of laying pipe(Pipe Fitters Union) I do tell you this may not be an exact D&D adventure,but in my eyes it will be. I smell the hunt of excitement and adventure! Instead of plundering I will hold shield and sword to defend NEVERWINTER!!!!!
OOC: Sorry got carried away. I see this as a D&D game but I have little XP with D&D. I really want it to be a grand adventure, and maybe this game opens more D&D to me. So I picked yes and hope for a great time. Wife will be at my side once again in a mmo(wich she told me about this game cuz she reads alot D&D novels) My son will start is first adventure in a MMO and I am really excited about that.
Pretty much this.
Then you have nothing to contribute to this discussion
This isn't about whether or not people are allowed to have fun in a game--any game--without a care in the world about what that game's identity is or isn't. This is about whether or not slapping a D&D logo (or any logo for that matter) in a game and calling it D&D (or whatever that corresponding logo might be) is enough to make it so.
But yeah, sorry if we disagree. Sorry if we don't allow you to freely bash the game. Sorry if we don't say yes to whatever you throw at the screen. Of course that 4E is not D&D. Or 3E!! Or whatever you decide! Let us bow down to your TRUTH and worship you like the new savior!! Because we cannot disagree with you and surely it has to do with us being weak minded and needing to convince ourselves that we didn't waste money.
Why is this game not D&D?
- the mechanics are handled very different
- real time action combat instead of round based combat
- it lacks the depht of the real D&D (e.g. character/class customization)
Why is this game D&D?
- Wizards of the Coast say so
- it plays in an official D&D campaign world (Forgotten Realms/Neverwinter)
- it uses lots of iconic and recognizable names and things (e.g. monsters, items, classes, races)
Some other facts that may or may not support the points above:
- Neverwinter will come with user generated content (Foundry)
For everyone the points that actually define D&D are different and that is the reason many of us disagree. But is it really important to have some kind of absolute and objective definition of "what makes D&D what it is"? As we can see, we can't even agree on the question what actually defines D&D. Players can't even agree on that when a new edition of the pen & paper game comes out (the infamous "edition wars"). So it is very unlikly that we come to an agreement here.
I can understand people who are disappointed and have expected something different from Neverwinter. Some may call me a fanboy that I support Cryptic. But I like their take on MMORPGs, I can't do anything against that. That's just my liking. As I tested the game I also thought "This actually hasn't much to do with D&D mechanics". I thought about that while playing the game but it still felt like a D&D game. Not because of the mechanics... but because of the background stories, because of the kobolds who looked like D&D kobolds, because of the dark elves who were drow, because of the gods who I know from my P&P sourcebooks etc. For me, the essence of D&D is not just the mechanics. The mechanics even change from time to time drastically. It is the feeling, the lore the iconic things and names. And those things are there.
A few weeks ago I bought the Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition. The game uses an even older edition (AD&D 2nd), it is not like the D&D people are used to who played Neverwinter Nights nor the 4th edition of D&D. But it still feels like D&D because all the elements I love are there, even though the classes where a lot more restrictive as in later editions or the combat was a lot more simplified. THAC0 anyone?
You may still disagree with me and I'm fine with that. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to prove to you that Neverwinter is in all regards a D&D game. I'm just trying to show you my perspective and why I think otherwise.
Sorry if I may have sounded a bit "fanboyish", sometimes I just can't shut up
Of course, if you strip away the D&D from Neverwinter, what is actually left? Another fantasy MMORPG destined to fail? Maybe. I also think that Neverwinter won't be a huge success. But it don't has to be a huge success to be profitable for Cryptic/Perfect World. What I have seen in beta is that the combat works out very good and the Foundry will be the unique feature that may attract more people than the generic fantasy MMORPG. Would it attract a lot more people with hardcore D&D mechanics? I doubt it. We pen & paper roleplayers are actually a dying breed and tend to overrate our numbers and influence by far. But that's just my opinion.
sorry mate but it is not a matter of me buying this game or not (i already made myself clear about it), no, it is all about debating about this game beeing d&d or not.
anyway...
Let's take the chocolate again, ok?
i love chocolate, and it has been a long time, very long time since i haven't eaten a good one. Then I see an advert telling that this special shop will sell the best chocolate ever but in 2 years. Woaw! 2 years! the best chocolate?!!! I'll wait!!!
Then comes the day!
I come into the shop, happy, smiling, ready to congratulate everyone and to buy tons of this chocolate... until I realize that it is coffee!
I express my disappointment, I ask why they advertised for chocolate when they knew that they were going to sale coffee...
then a random customer, that doesn't know much about chocolate, that likes coffee, comes and tell me :
you are not obliged to buy! if you don't like coffee then you can leave the shop!
...
I believe you guessed who stands for the random customer role.
As I have understood, you are still going to play Neverwinter even though it isn't what you were expecting? Or won't you play the game at all because of this? I'm just curious.
But i'll keep an eye on this game, just in case...
I'm walking down a dark, creepy hallway, deep inside this tomb. I begin to notice webs here and there, and I look up to the ceiling high above, where I see increasing amounts of webbing and possibly some web cocoons. I'm still looking up as I cautiously advance, thinking "There will be spiders ambushing me soon" and sort of mentally congratulating myself for being so clever to notice environmental details like that and thus be prepared for what's going to happen.
Suddenly, I run face-first smack into the side of an enormous Gelatinous Cube, which immediately engulfs me into itself and begins to rapidly eat away my hit points with its acidic digestion. I hadn't seen it ahead, OF COURSE I hadn't seen it, because that's how Gelatinous Cubes work. I freak out, wholly surprised, and struggle desperately to get away, but it's very difficult to escape, I can only pull myself free from the creature slowly and agonizingly. After I've extricated myself, I look back and see that my companion is not so fortunate, and remains inside the Gelatinous Cube, already dead.
I start laughing and grinning, and exclaim out loud, "YES! Now THIS is D&D!"
To me, this is such a classic, quintessential D&D-specific experience. Neverwinter is FULL of moments like this, where someone who has played and loved several editions of D&D (including 4E, which just might be my favorite edition) over the course of many years will inevitably stop and feel that familiar joy of being immersed in a real Dungeons and Dragons adventure once again.
To me, Neverwinter is absolutely D&D.
Do they have chocolate coffee creamer? I have had some great chocolate creamers to would make you swear you wearing drinking chocolate and not coffee.
Is Hot Chocolate, chocolate? It's in the name. They use some cocoa in it. But wouldn't that be Hot Water/Milk, with a choclate flavoring? They have called it Hot Chocolate for a very long time, but does that really make it Hot Chocolate?
You buy a box/can of dry chocolate powder called Hot Chocolate, then on the back it gives you the directions how to finish it yourself,
by adding hot water/milk. You can add more or use less water/milk to your personal taste.
That's what Neverwinter is to me. It is Hot Chocolate, and how much water/milk you add to it is very subject to personal tastes. To some too much water will leave a bad taste in anothers mouth, likewise, not enough milk will leave another someone else unhappy.
Although, there could be those people that prefer vinegar... :eek:
Neverwinter Wiki
And what pray tell have you contributed? You have succeeded in wasting time debating irrelevant details. You have sidetracked the discussion of the game from important points of fact to subjective, meaningless details that serve little to no purpose other than to vent your frustrations. In effect you have served your ego, not the arguement and you have achieved you goal of making this about you and not the game.
This game has flaws and it has positive characteristics. This hand-wringing over a label applied to it is a waste of time and energy. My contribution to this discussion is the most important one of all: pointing out how senseless it is to argue about labels that don't matter. Let's debate content, classes, itemization and the role of solo vs. group...ya know, real issues, not this irrelavant drivel.
Only if it has actual chocolate in it. Otherwise is something else.
If you take something (like say "chocolate") and use it as the key ingredient in something you cook, so long as the process you use doesn't change its chemical composition somehow into something else, the resulting product will be that thing (or a derivative, such as chocolate drink, chocolate puddin, chocolate icecream, etc.) no matter what you do with it. However, if you take something else (like say "carob" *cringes*), and prepared it to look, smell or taste similar to something else without actually being that thing, then it isn't the thing itself. Its merely a doppelganger trying to pass itself out as the thing itself and no matter how many people claim it's delicious (some people like carob) it will never be the thing itself. Because people liking something doesn't make it something else, it only makes it something they like.
D&D mechanics have different features in monsters such as a damage resistance. This give the monsters character too, such as a devil being immune to fire. This is one reason I may want to select different spells or weapons prior to embarking on an adventure. It seems that without such traits, the monsters are all the same, just as the PC’s are. My guess is that there are no such traits here. The reason I guess this is that if you have 2 spells, magic missle & ray of frost, then if a monster is immune or resistant to those spells, it would render a “Control Wizard” useless for the most part. This would be unfair to people who desire to play the Wizard. Likewise, if a monster were highly resistant to piercing damage, someone who can only shoot a bow would become equally useless. Thus, I can only anticipate that monsters may all be homogenous as well, with some traits slightly modified (a bit stronger, a bit more hit points), but not much else.
The heart of D&D (IMHO) is imagination and having the only difference between character to character and monster to monster being the graphics doesn’t cut it. Without any ability to swap out spells, weapons, train in different areas, and have a broader selection of methods to interact with the world, then other aspects of the game become bland since everyone’s limited powers have to work equally on all monsters in all situations. This severely limits any real variety of encounters, dungeons, or play style. The only difference in anything becomes the graphics you see.
Consequently, it strikes me as interesting that people would look at the graphics and state that since it looks like D&D, it must feel like it too. The most recent video I watched was one on character creation. When I loaded it, after seeing what I saw up to that point, I was not surprised that around 95% of the “customization” was graphics-oriented. You get to choose how your character looks, not much else. D&D should be much richer than this.
Some folks say that the kiddies who play MMO’s today won’t like it. I think that might be wrong. D&D is a classic, great game and I believe it could stand on its own legs. D&D itself started out rather short on customization and developed more and more into an engine of imagination. You, the player, got to choose how your hero would be. Cryptic seems afraid to embrace this. D&D attracted so many people for so long that nobody can honestly say it doesn’t have merit. The folks who grew up and only know cycle cooling & rigid role play style might actually be surprised how fun it can be to do more. It reminds me of a skier who’s only ever gone down the bunny slopes & thinks that’s all there is. I don’t think translating D&D into a video game needs to be rule-by-rule but the heart of it is to imagine your hero and build the hero you have in mind – the rules being the guide, not the overlord. There’s nothing that says there cannot be options for people wanting spoon fed builds, but I’d like to see more options.
I hope the best for this game & I’m here because I’m interested. The game looks like it could be fun, but I believe it can be potentially great if they open up the characterization & options available to players. In other words, make it more like D&D.
See my other thread about asking if we can cancel purchases.
Prevalent details that are actually relevant to this discussion and the actual arguments being made.
Discussions about how genuine a game's depiction of D&D (or any other relevant system) are relevant to any game claiming to be D&D (or other system).
I have sidetracked nothing. There are plenty of other threads on these boards. You are not obligated to particiate in this discussion if it doesn't suit your interest, and don't get to determine for others what details have meaning or purpose based on your personal interests.
As opposed to claiming that...?
...Because you get to determine for everyone else what is or isn't important for everyone else, or what they get to discuss on these boards?
Sorry you feel threatened by people having discussions that should in no way affect your ability to discuss the topics you feel are important (to YOU) on these boards or to have fun in the game. But you don't see me going into a PvP thread and telling them to stop discussing PvP because I don't PvP anymore, PvP isn't in yet and Cryptic sucks at PvP content and features anyways*.
*actually I may say this last part, but only as a warning to tell them not to get their hopes up, rather than to tell them to stop discussing PvP altogether.
Aye, there's the problem -- Cryptic "Hot Chocolate" almost completely ignored the manufacturer's suggested recipe and gave us a teaspoon of cocoa powder to a gallon of milk. Well, ya, I like milk, and this milk seems slightly darker than regular milk (if you squint funny), but it really fails to satisfy that chocolate craving.
Encounter Matrix | Advanced Foundry Topics
That isn't what WotC has allowed. WotC Still have weekly conferences with the game content producers. EVERYTHING must be approved by WotC. This Hot Chocloate has been "D&D" certified by WotC. You putting in dark milk is different, but if that's the way you like your cup, so be it.
Neverwinter Wiki
D&D isn't just a system. In fact, the system part of D&D has its own name, that doesn't contain the words "dungeons" or "dragons". The system is just a small part of D&D.
In this case WotC certified the equivalent of printing a Ferarri T-Shirt instead of making a car . Sure, you can wear it, but it doesn't mean you drive a Ferarri. Cryptic got the D&D sticker, but it doesn't mean we'll play a D&D game. But hey, Cryptic's thoughts must have been "most people are happy with the T-shirt", and they cost WAY less to make!"
We all have seen the streams from beta. You know nothing more or less