Remember that Guild Wars 2 uses a stripped down skill structure much like this too and it works quite well in its limited-ness. Actually I like the idea of stripping things down to a core 5 or 6 skills. It makes things seem simple at first, and in that simplicity is disguised a much more complex system. Other games give you a skill for every conceivable situation. Most become useless as you level, some are just redundant, but only a few actually become key skills that will follow you all the way to end-game. By limiting the number of skills we have the devs aren't holding any hands, they're forcing us to think and adapt to the situation instead of just face-rolling through skill combinations until something works.
I'm not going to speak on the class construction just yet; I want to see what I'm working with before I start critiquing. It seems pretty clear that the GWF and GF are pretty much locked into their rolls and begs the question why they didn't combine them, but names can be deceiving. I suspect they'll both have some crossover ability, just like the CW will have more than just control skills and the TR will have more than just deception. The point is we won't know anything until Friday, so all we have right now is theory craft based on what we've seen via videos and demos from PAX
0
darkbladessMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 57
It is a racial background option nothing more, it will be an option for any drow you make.
That kinda sucks, i knew it wasnt a seperate class ,but they compare it to Drizzt Do'Urden and he is mainly ranger class.Guess we will have to make a trickster rogue to try and emmulate drizzt if ranger isnt available?
0
slambitMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 282Bounty Hunter
edited February 2013
no ranger at launch, check out the dev tracker, cryptic guy lines up the 5 classes they will have ready.
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited February 2013
No further comment by me on the class system until people play it. Either it works for them or it doesn't.
Am i the only one in here, who has no idea WTF 2e 3fe 4d or whatever "editions" you folks are talking about. No idea what makes a Paragon class or whatnot. Not once in my life have i ever played a table top game or anything remotely similiar. What i have played is a lot of MMO's and read hundreds of books. The only thing i want to play, is to be a Drow Renegade that shoots lots and lots of arrows. Its the only thing ive ever played in my MMO experience. Hunter(WoW), Ranger (gw2), Rogue Marksmen(Rift), Squig Herder(Warhammer), and Demon Hunter (d3).
It's ok.
4th Edition on tabletop plays a lot like a MMO. Personally I do not like 4th ed, but I am willing to see how it plays out on an actual MMO.
That kinda sucks, i knew it wasnt a seperate class ,but they compare it to Drizzt Do'Urden and he is mainly ranger class.Guess we will have to make a trickster rogue to try and emmulate drizzt if ranger isnt available?
I think the comparison with Drizzt is the fact that he is a "Good" drow and you get to play as one on the surface.
I'd Like to see them do a Class of each Role for Each Power Type... I.E. Mystical(Arcane), Holy, Martial, Primal, Trickster/Cunning Etc.
So far i'd put them as:
Martial: Tank=Guardian Fighter, Damage=Great Weapon Fighter, Support=Warlord
Divine: Tank=Paladin, Damage=Avenger, Support=Cleric
Arcane: Tank=Swordmage, Damage=Warlock, Support=Controller Wizard (Or Others that are a Better fit)
Primal: Tank=Warden, Damage=Bardarian, Support=Druid/Shaman
Cunning: Tank=Brawny Rogue, Damage=Trickster Rogue, Support=Bard
Some are Probally wrong, or not in the Right Power Groups, but that's the type of thing i'd like to see anyway (Hell they could even add classes as Power group Packs).
Diplomancy: Sometimes "I hit it with my Axe" is the only Answer.
A Challenge is something interesting and awkward until you beat it... then it's called "Repetative"
I'd Like to see them do a Class of each Role for Each Power Type... I.E. Mystical(Arcane), Holy, Martial, Primal, Trickster/Cunning Etc.
So far i'd put them as:
Martial: Tank=Guardian Fighter, Damage=Great Weapon Fighter, Support=Warlord
Divine: Tank=Paladin, Damage=Avenger, Support=Cleric
Arcane: Tank=Swordmage, Damage=Warlock, Support=Controller Wizard (Or Others that are a Better fit)
Primal: Tank=Warden, Damage=Bardarian, Support=Druid/Shaman
Cunning: Tank=Brawny Rogue, Damage=Trickster Rogue, Support=Bard
Some are Probally wrong, or not in the Right Power Groups, but that's the type of thing i'd like to see anyway (Hell they could even add classes as Power group Packs).
I would love to see all of those classes implemented (especially Avenger and Bard), but you seem to have left out Ranger. People will probably explode if they never put in Ranger as a class.
I'd Like to see them do a Class of each Role for Each Power Type... I.E. Mystical(Arcane), Holy, Martial, Primal, Trickster/Cunning Etc.
So far i'd put them as:
Martial: Tank=Guardian Fighter, Damage=Great Weapon Fighter, Support=Warlord
Divine: Tank=Paladin, Damage=Avenger, Support=Cleric
Arcane: Tank=Swordmage, Damage=Warlock, Support=Controller Wizard (Or Others that are a Better fit)
Primal: Tank=Warden, Damage=Bardarian, Support=Druid/Shaman
Cunning: Tank=Brawny Rogue, Damage=Trickster Rogue, Support=Bard
Some are Probally wrong, or not in the Right Power Groups, but that's the type of thing i'd like to see anyway (Hell they could even add classes as Power group Packs).
I really have to disagree with a couple of the choices here and the fact they are in a group.
Warlocks and Druids are not really defined as arcane or divine, or even "primal".
Warlocks just need their own deal. Honestly, this has to be the easiest translation to a MMO with the way their abilities worked in PnP. In 3.5 they could get 15d6 ranged attacked (minus the extra shenanigans for effects) that could be repeated unlimited.
Druids... Druids should be druids. This class is always an afterthought. No one stone me, but Druids were actually handled pretty good by WoW. Better than Neverwinter Nights and D&D Online. They are versitile, by healing, buffing, debuffing, shapeshifting and nukes. I like this class (not sure about 4th ed though) and wish oblivious publishers and developers would stop <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> this class up.
Sorry for mini rant : / Druids get me fired up. Wizard then Druid... that is what I like to play in that order in MMO and PnP.
Ranger Would Technically be Either Cunning or Primal, Although i'd Probally Redo the List with a Couple of Extra's Later... Since i forgot the "Hybrid's" or classes that can do Several things. (Druids are Technically this in Some interpratations).
Diplomancy: Sometimes "I hit it with my Axe" is the only Answer.
A Challenge is something interesting and awkward until you beat it... then it's called "Repetative"
We'll see.. I feel like lack of options is one of the main killers of an MMO.
To be Fair... Lack of Options are better then classes that all feel the Same Regardless. Aslong as they expand on them and have good Differences at the Start/feel different thoughout limited classes can be useful/Good.
Not Excusing it though.. MORE is nice to have.
Diplomancy: Sometimes "I hit it with my Axe" is the only Answer.
A Challenge is something interesting and awkward until you beat it... then it's called "Repetative"
In 4e, classes are divided in two ways: by "Power Source" (From where the abilities derive) and "Role" (How the abilities are used). There are six Power Sources (Arcane, Divine, Martial, Primal, Psionic, Shadow) and four Primary Roles (Defender (Tanks), Striker (DPS), Leader (Healer), Controller).
Here are the classes by Power Source as they are in 4e, along with their Primary Roles
Additionally, each class may have secondary and tertiary roles, and these are emphasized based on the abilities chosen during character creation and advancement. In the case of Neverwinter, the Defender Fighter emphasizes his Primary Role, whereas the Great Weapon Fighter is emphasizing the secondary role of the Fighter class of Striker. But both Fighter classes will be "tanks".
The potential for classes based on Primary Roles is already vast. When you add secondary and tertiary roles, as it appears that Cryptic is doing, it greatly expands our potential class availability.
In 4e, classes are divided in two ways: by "Power Source" (From where the abilities derive) and "Role" (How the abilities are used). There are six Power Sources (Arcane, Divine, Martial, Primal, Psionic, Shadow) and four Primary Roles (Defender (Tanks), Striker (DPS), Leader (Healer), Controller).
Here are the classes by Power Source as they are in 4e, along with their Primary Roles
Additionally, each class may have secondary and tertiary roles, and these are emphasized based on the abilities chosen during character creation and advancement. In the case of Neverwinter, the Defender Fighter emphasizes his Primary Role, whereas the Great Weapon Fighter is emphasizing the secondary role of the Fighter class of Striker. But both Fighter classes will be "tanks".
The potential for classes based on Primary Roles is already vast. When you add secondary and tertiary roles, as it appears that Cryptic is doing, it greatly expands our potential class availability.
I know it would be pretty unfeasible, but THAT would be an amazing selection to be able to choose from at the beginning.
The Martial/Arcane/Divine makeup seems to be the holy grail of dnd. Its good that they are at least representing the Fighter, Mage, Cleric, and Rogue at launch. I think some would argue that those 4 classes alone could make a full dnd party - nothing else need apply.
I enjoy variety and that's one of the reasons I personally like 4th ed. I am glad to see that they at least intend to provide different options for each class. Them releasing the Great Weapon fighter already illustrates that they intend to represent not only those classes that are essential to the game, but that they also want to give you more than one way to look at a class. My experience in 4th ed has spoiled me to limitless customization or at least the appearance of it. I don't expect the game to offer quite as many choices as pen and paper can offer though.
I find it to be telling(and refreshing!) that cryptic opted to focus on the holy class combo, your Fighter, Mage, Cleric, and Rogue, first - I dont think they are going to let the obvious, iconic choices go by the wayside.
I think it is incredibly convenient that the classes are broken up this way in 4th edition. As a DM, or as Cryptic in this case, it allows you to really tailor what to expect. I have limited my players to one powersource or another in the past and found that it made a huge impact on the type and feel of the game being played! Picture an all martial strike team that bashes in the door no-nonsense style, as opposed to the very careful calculating approach of an all arcane party.
If you were to ask me what I thought cryptic should release next I would break it down like this:
1st Pass(What we know, or have a reasonable surety of) - Defenders 1 Guardian Fighter/Martial, Leaders 1 Devout Cleric/Divine, Controllers 1 Control Wizard/Arcane, Strikers 2 Trickster Rogue/Martial and Great Weapon Fighter/Martial
2nd Pass - First major content update - Defenders 1 Paladin/Divine, Leaders 1 Bard/Arcane, Controllers 1 Invoker?/Divine, Strikers 2 Archery Ranger/Martial and Infernal Warlock/Arcane
My guess on the second controller, the invoker, is the only one I wouldnt bet money on. I included it because it would even out, for the most part, the Divine, Arcane, and Martial sources nicely. I would NOT bet on the druid, and here's why.
The Feywild is sort of a big deal in this incarnation of the realms. I predict the first major theme-pack that cryptic releases will be feywild-centric. It will probably include the eladrin or a gnome as a playable race. Offer several backgrounds related to Feytouched. And offer a new, nifty powersource - Primal. Wardens, Shamans, Druids. Barbarians and perhaps even a Beast mastery ranger will make an appearance either all at once or slowly over time in keeping with the theme.
Apply this same reasoning with the Psionic and Shadow Powersources and you have easily 3 major theme-based content updates that are sure to generate income.
Is there a meaning to the sub-titles for the classes. Why not have Warrior / Rogue / Mage / Cleric etc
Guardian makes me think tank / Trikster as in illusions - stealth / Control for stuns - sleeps / Devoted tells me faith - heals
does this leave room for more classes of the same type?
Berzerker Warrior or Shadow Rogue, Pyromancer perhaps or Blessed Cleric possibly more buffing abilities
or is this just there way of staying away from plain jane titles and giving them a little side flavor?
Blue, green, grey, white, or black; smooth, ruffled, or mountainous; that ocean is not silent.
H. P. Lovecraft
Is there a meaning to the sub-titles for the classes. Why not have Warrior / Rogue / Mage / Cleric etc
The sub-titles are builds of each class. Guardian Fighter emphasizes defense, whereas a Great Weapon Fighter is emphasizing Damage. This means they could take the Wizard and have a build which emphasizes DPS more than Control, and give it a name like Force Mage. The Trickster Rogue, to my mind, would be a rogue that also has a few controller aspects to them, rather than a straight out DPS Rogue, which I'll call Stabbyface Rogue.
The sub-titles are builds of each class. Guardian Fighter emphasizes defense, whereas a Great Weapon Fighter is emphasizing Damage. This means they could take the Wizard and have a build which emphasizes DPS more than Control, and give it a name like Force Mage. The Trickster Rogue, to my mind, would be a rogue that also has a few controller aspects to them, rather than a straight out DPS Rogue, which I'll call Stabbyface Rogue.
So I am sorta on the right path then, this bottle necks the classes down a certain path to leave room for as you say one mage that controls and has stuns / mezz etc and another mage that can blow stuff up.
Only other thing I was worried about tho is , if we are being sent down a typical path how much diversity will be between fighter (a) and fighter (b). I still hope all the feats / specs etc will vary the fighters in enough way that you still might have a more balanced def/off fighter for solo and the likes and a all out def tank build.
Blue, green, grey, white, or black; smooth, ruffled, or mountainous; that ocean is not silent.
H. P. Lovecraft
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lanessar13Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 8Arc User
edited February 2013
Hm. Odd. From my days playing a Swordmage, you could choose a different Aegis (one was defense, the other was...) and make a teleport-striker build. Basically, you teleported every time a marked target attacked someone other than you. With the Eladrin racials, it basically made you more mobile than a rogue, as I recall. Again, this was just player impression, and I didn't recall the rules all that well from the few games I played. It just struck me as a good DPSer, since the pure mage was the only one out-damaging me.
Only other thing I was worried about tho is , if we are being sent down a typical path how much diversity will be between fighter (a) and fighter (b). I still hope all the feats / specs etc will vary the fighters in enough way that you still might have a more balanced def/off fighter for solo and the likes and a all out def tank build.
If Neverwinter has even one quarter of the available 4e options regarding abilities and feats, you'll see quite a diverse population.
Hm. Odd. From my days playing a Swordmage, you could choose a different Aegis (one was defense, the other was...) and make a teleport-striker build. Basically, you teleported every time a marked target attacked someone other than you. With the Eladrin racials, it basically made you more mobile than a rogue, as I recall. Again, this was just player impression, and I didn't recall the rules all that well from the few games I played. It just struck me as a good DPSer, since the pure mage was the only one out-damaging me.
Exactly, that build is designed to emphasize DPS, but you were still a Tank too. I love that build too, by the way.
0
lanessar13Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 8Arc User
Exactly, that build is designed to emphasize DPS, but you were still a Tank too. I love that build too, by the way.
It's actually the one class in 4ED I want to see in this game, above all others. The mechanics on it alone would be insane to implement. From my recollection, though, I took a hybrid feat in backstab and really ramped up the damage by porting behind foes with the backstab multiplier. You almost feel like a tanky rogue with close-ranged magic DPS. Good, balanced class.
Comments
I'm not going to speak on the class construction just yet; I want to see what I'm working with before I start critiquing. It seems pretty clear that the GWF and GF are pretty much locked into their rolls and begs the question why they didn't combine them, but names can be deceiving. I suspect they'll both have some crossover ability, just like the CW will have more than just control skills and the TR will have more than just deception. The point is we won't know anything until Friday, so all we have right now is theory craft based on what we've seen via videos and demos from PAX
That kinda sucks, i knew it wasnt a seperate class ,but they compare it to Drizzt Do'Urden and he is mainly ranger class.Guess we will have to make a trickster rogue to try and emmulate drizzt if ranger isnt available?
I love that movie!!!
"Quick build a wall using the Bard's Corpses!"
When you want to break the mold
BETA Tips and Tricks
Never saw Pants in beta?
It's ok.
4th Edition on tabletop plays a lot like a MMO. Personally I do not like 4th ed, but I am willing to see how it plays out on an actual MMO.
When you want to break the mold
BETA Tips and Tricks
Never saw Pants in beta?
I think the comparison with Drizzt is the fact that he is a "Good" drow and you get to play as one on the surface.
When you want to break the mold
BETA Tips and Tricks
Never saw Pants in beta?
So far i'd put them as:
Martial: Tank=Guardian Fighter, Damage=Great Weapon Fighter, Support=Warlord
Divine: Tank=Paladin, Damage=Avenger, Support=Cleric
Arcane: Tank=Swordmage, Damage=Warlock, Support=Controller Wizard (Or Others that are a Better fit)
Primal: Tank=Warden, Damage=Bardarian, Support=Druid/Shaman
Cunning: Tank=Brawny Rogue, Damage=Trickster Rogue, Support=Bard
Some are Probally wrong, or not in the Right Power Groups, but that's the type of thing i'd like to see anyway (Hell they could even add classes as Power group Packs).
A Challenge is something interesting and awkward until you beat it... then it's called "Repetative"
Neverwinter on TVTropes(Needs some loving)
Neverwinter Nights on TVTropes
I would love to see all of those classes implemented (especially Avenger and Bard), but you seem to have left out Ranger. People will probably explode if they never put in Ranger as a class.
I really have to disagree with a couple of the choices here and the fact they are in a group.
Warlocks and Druids are not really defined as arcane or divine, or even "primal".
Warlocks just need their own deal. Honestly, this has to be the easiest translation to a MMO with the way their abilities worked in PnP. In 3.5 they could get 15d6 ranged attacked (minus the extra shenanigans for effects) that could be repeated unlimited.
Druids... Druids should be druids. This class is always an afterthought. No one stone me, but Druids were actually handled pretty good by WoW. Better than Neverwinter Nights and D&D Online. They are versitile, by healing, buffing, debuffing, shapeshifting and nukes. I like this class (not sure about 4th ed though) and wish oblivious publishers and developers would stop <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> this class up.
Sorry for mini rant : / Druids get me fired up. Wizard then Druid... that is what I like to play in that order in MMO and PnP.
When you want to break the mold
BETA Tips and Tricks
Never saw Pants in beta?
A Challenge is something interesting and awkward until you beat it... then it's called "Repetative"
Neverwinter on TVTropes(Needs some loving)
Neverwinter Nights on TVTropes
I've seen this movie at least 20 times now and I still bust a gut every time the goblin scene comes around.
"Wait, I'll charm them!!" "And goblins..." [arrows fly]
No Drizzt or Pikel clones? How will we ever go on? xD
No I don't think that was the scorpians for that quate..I believe it was done by a one hit wonder group from the 80's.
To be Fair... Lack of Options are better then classes that all feel the Same Regardless. Aslong as they expand on them and have good Differences at the Start/feel different thoughout limited classes can be useful/Good.
Not Excusing it though.. MORE is nice to have.
A Challenge is something interesting and awkward until you beat it... then it's called "Repetative"
Neverwinter on TVTropes(Needs some loving)
Neverwinter Nights on TVTropes
No Danica or Grandmaster Kane clones either
@Maekada in-game
Formerly MaekadaFolay on the forums.
Here are the classes by Power Source as they are in 4e, along with their Primary Roles
Arcane
* Artificer (Leader)
* Bard (Leader)
* Sorcerer (Striker)
* Swordmage (Defender)
* Warlock (Striker)
* Wizard (Controller)
Divine
* Avenger (Striker)
* Cleric (Leader)
* Invoker (Controller)
* Paladin (Defender)
* Runepriest (Leader)
Martial
* Fighter (Defender)
* Ranger (Striker)
* Rogue (Striker)
* Warlord (Leader)
Primal
* Barbarian (Striker)
* Druid (Controller)
* Seeker (Controller)
* Shaman (Leader)
* Warden (Defender)
Psionic
* Ardent (Leader)
* Battlemind (Defender)
* Monk (Striker)
* Psion (Controller)
Shadow
* Assassin (Striker)
Additionally, each class may have secondary and tertiary roles, and these are emphasized based on the abilities chosen during character creation and advancement. In the case of Neverwinter, the Defender Fighter emphasizes his Primary Role, whereas the Great Weapon Fighter is emphasizing the secondary role of the Fighter class of Striker. But both Fighter classes will be "tanks".
The potential for classes based on Primary Roles is already vast. When you add secondary and tertiary roles, as it appears that Cryptic is doing, it greatly expands our potential class availability.
I know it would be pretty unfeasible, but THAT would be an amazing selection to be able to choose from at the beginning.
I enjoy variety and that's one of the reasons I personally like 4th ed. I am glad to see that they at least intend to provide different options for each class. Them releasing the Great Weapon fighter already illustrates that they intend to represent not only those classes that are essential to the game, but that they also want to give you more than one way to look at a class. My experience in 4th ed has spoiled me to limitless customization or at least the appearance of it. I don't expect the game to offer quite as many choices as pen and paper can offer though.
I find it to be telling(and refreshing!) that cryptic opted to focus on the holy class combo, your Fighter, Mage, Cleric, and Rogue, first - I dont think they are going to let the obvious, iconic choices go by the wayside.
I think it is incredibly convenient that the classes are broken up this way in 4th edition. As a DM, or as Cryptic in this case, it allows you to really tailor what to expect. I have limited my players to one powersource or another in the past and found that it made a huge impact on the type and feel of the game being played! Picture an all martial strike team that bashes in the door no-nonsense style, as opposed to the very careful calculating approach of an all arcane party.
If you were to ask me what I thought cryptic should release next I would break it down like this:
1st Pass(What we know, or have a reasonable surety of) - Defenders 1 Guardian Fighter/Martial, Leaders 1 Devout Cleric/Divine, Controllers 1 Control Wizard/Arcane, Strikers 2 Trickster Rogue/Martial and Great Weapon Fighter/Martial
2nd Pass - First major content update - Defenders 1 Paladin/Divine, Leaders 1 Bard/Arcane, Controllers 1 Invoker?/Divine, Strikers 2 Archery Ranger/Martial and Infernal Warlock/Arcane
My guess on the second controller, the invoker, is the only one I wouldnt bet money on. I included it because it would even out, for the most part, the Divine, Arcane, and Martial sources nicely. I would NOT bet on the druid, and here's why.
The Feywild is sort of a big deal in this incarnation of the realms. I predict the first major theme-pack that cryptic releases will be feywild-centric. It will probably include the eladrin or a gnome as a playable race. Offer several backgrounds related to Feytouched. And offer a new, nifty powersource - Primal. Wardens, Shamans, Druids. Barbarians and perhaps even a Beast mastery ranger will make an appearance either all at once or slowly over time in keeping with the theme.
Apply this same reasoning with the Psionic and Shadow Powersources and you have easily 3 major theme-based content updates that are sure to generate income.
D&D Home Page - What Class Are You? - Build A Character - D&D Compendium
Guardian makes me think tank / Trikster as in illusions - stealth / Control for stuns - sleeps / Devoted tells me faith - heals
does this leave room for more classes of the same type?
Berzerker Warrior or Shadow Rogue, Pyromancer perhaps or Blessed Cleric possibly more buffing abilities
or is this just there way of staying away from plain jane titles and giving them a little side flavor?
H. P. Lovecraft
So I am sorta on the right path then, this bottle necks the classes down a certain path to leave room for as you say one mage that controls and has stuns / mezz etc and another mage that can blow stuff up.
Only other thing I was worried about tho is , if we are being sent down a typical path how much diversity will be between fighter (a) and fighter (b). I still hope all the feats / specs etc will vary the fighters in enough way that you still might have a more balanced def/off fighter for solo and the likes and a all out def tank build.
H. P. Lovecraft
It's actually the one class in 4ED I want to see in this game, above all others. The mechanics on it alone would be insane to implement. From my recollection, though, I took a hybrid feat in backstab and really ramped up the damage by porting behind foes with the backstab multiplier. You almost feel like a tanky rogue with close-ranged magic DPS. Good, balanced class.