Daggerdale gets too much hate....its a popcorn game and once you get out of the underground not too bad, It's a little less fun and polished than Demonstone was, plus it looks really similar to the Cryptic engine...in fact I swear I have seen some of the exact same assets in the Neverwinter videos.
yeah i think that's my feeling on it. It was a cheapo game that i got on xbox live. It had a nice action rpg feel to it... it was fun. It's not like i expected it to be dragon age 3 or anything.
I feel like too many people expect games to be AAA titles ALL the time.
I did not read through the whole thread, so I won't comment on what has been commented on the 1'000th time. But there is something I feel very strongly about: Charakter customization.
That is the one thing I am convinced that D&D is vastly superiour to all the others. The reason for that is simple: D&D chatakter customization and building over the course of the adventure/game has obviously never been intended for PvP. A classic D&D Sorcerer can blast away a Fighter with ease, whereas he can throw everything at a Rogue who will evade all. Multi-Classing makes the attempt to balance the whole thing for PvP even more a nightmare.
Therefore for PvP to be implemented they HAVE to implement SOME kind of restrictions in the first place. Otherwise balancing the different possible builds against each other would be nigh impossibru. And yet, the original feel of the charakter CANNOT be lost or WoW and the others become much more attractive to the gamers again. That is a line I sure would not want to walk because it is slippery like hell, but what I've seen so far (Trickster Rogue, Great Weapon Fighter, Control Wizard) tells me that whoever walks it does so successfully - the feel of the classes seems to be preserved and still strong enough restrictions to make balancing possible seem to be in place.
Looking at the huge worlds of D&D the above is only a small part, though an important one. The rest can and, as my guts tell me, will be just like D&D fans are used to: rich, deep, colorful/joyful where appropriate and dark/depressing where appropriate. In full knowledge that there is no guarantee whatsoever I raised my odds to get into the beta as high as I could, looking forward to exploring the core story and all the sidestories the community will create (myself included - what I've seen of the foundry is just awesome).
One question I have though: Do we happen to know if there will be a day/night cycle that is shorter than RL (maybe 3 or 4 hours for a full cycle)?
However I will try to review without much torment to him.
The game which shall not be named was a good game, like an epic bard build which is not spoony, or an epic druid which hates the wilds - the problem with the game which shall not be named was that it was marketed not as a healthy person but like a person with his guts spilling out as he has no skin, a few bones missing, a piece of brain dangling out of nose ... etc. (Let us not go to gory details).
If the A***** company did not disembowel the game which shall not be named, the game which shall not be named can have become a game which I could write about.
A**** knew it that is why marketed as cheap. A**** in fact has a great record in killing many great games in most gory ways.
Poor D********, she was no match for the monster A*****. She got owned.
~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~
The worst thing about game which shall not be named was that like in last part of matrix when Nebuchadnezzar (or was it the ship with fat a$$?) comes out of the dirty skyline and she sees and says beautiful! Same way when you are able to come out of the mines, you see that beauty or when the lurker role is faithfully implemented - however it was dissected, disemboweled and defecated on by A***** just before release, after it did horrible things to it.
Well, I mean not to be rude here to pre-apologies for this but what's the post's point?
Are you ranting, are you suggesting solutions, are you warning people to stay away, are you showing solutions by the games you've played should be this in D&D from etc? It's not that clear. While your concerns are addressed, your end result isn't.
Honestly, if all you're doing is saying why the game might suck and here's your pedigree, we have a ton of people before you, one of whom even has optimism a bit more than when he started that.
But I'm thinking this is your way of "trying to wake up" those responsible for the game. If I'm wrong, disregard the rest.
If you have specific constructive solutions, I and others look forward to reading them in future replies, but when I can list about it, I'll try clearing up your points:
1. DDO's numbers are ridiculous for D&D because they tried to pretend it was a D&D tabletop game also an MMO. Do I need to go into the mess that became glancing blows because of this?
This game made no such promise. To every gamer who is a D&D tabletop fundamentalist harsh words, but: get over it.
This is a D&D themed MMO game. If you're looking for a faithful recreation of D&D in a computer game, even NWN cannot succeed. It just is not doable on a multi-player level of this magnitude to do so with the rules meant for a group ONLY EVER of 4-6 except under rare circumstances
After 34+ years of doing this plus playing most if not every computer game related to D&D both individual and multi-player, I know my history.
And Daggerdale has nothing to do with this game or how 4e should work but everything showing why I am grateful PWE and not the...other publisher is involved/not involved anymore.
2. The heroic and paragon tiers or levels 1-20 are extended to a 3-1 ratio. Or levels 1-20 are now in game 1-60 and I can't comment further on how this works publicly.
I don't know how to say you are missing all the facts without breaching some things under secrecy, so I have to leave a lot of things currently unsaid. I will address a few things that are blatantly wrong or overlooked in a historical context. Such as the game simply would not work with a 30 level progression what one does on a tabletop session once a week in an MMO format. But I will say the developers tried to do 20-30 levels in the beginning extensively at first when they made the framework. Same with healing surges not being in an MMO game. Again. See 1.
And epic tier will not be released at launch does no mean not released or done like DDO did in their own...unique way contrary to the D&D mythos.
And Wow started with a 60 level setup if I remember correctly. (Then again, I avoided the game because I was told it was grindless then told it grinds you at later levels after all so I made a choice to "dodge that MMO bullet" since I played the rest of the MMOS for many years before this release and had to deal with grind, and could be very wrong on this.)
But I can publicly say it's not for an XP boost. I'm sorry I can't yet further publicly comment on this though.
3. See 1. WOTC will make sure the story references and creatures and feel of combat don't deviate from D&D cannon, but this will be done rules-wise from a MMO game. And if you are going all D&D purist, you fail to mention if the term skills means the tabletop skills like arcana, religion, etc or the MMO term for attacks, which you then fail to use the correct terminology of POWERS if so in 4E D&D. I will say D&D tabletop skills will be represented in an MMO format but that's all I can say.
4. This can't specifically be addressed until extended testing is done, but this isn't their first dance and such contingencies are addressed with a similar action level of response with their other active STO/CO games and how they addressed it on COH/COX before transfer (and sunset ) to another company.
5.
This is one of those you have to see what is done and I can't further comment (except strongly recommend you get a good video card if you want to note the gorgeous physical textures when the game is released) but if you think this is some WoW or Japanese themed cutsie game you are completely off the mark. Not even close. If you were referring to and don't like the special effects I already confirmed in my FAQ you can turn that off, so don't say that's why. Knowledge to select what you do or don't want details effectswise is a player's choice and I tolerated that later argument when people claimed epileptic concerns not this (if any of this is applicable.)
6. You might want to look at the 4th edition rules when it comes to immediate reactions and powers. Those ARE essentially blocking. Just because an MMO does it through action on a fighter does not mean it isn't in D&D in other ways. The fighter is more than stand and take hits. There's strategy in the powers shown HOW to be a defender ad draw enemies as well as not take hits. Shift keys and powers being used in the demos show that in the video even if not demonstrated explicitly and clearly to many. I highly recommend watching the video of the fighter and seeing this (even if any of the old video doesn't show what the newer VO announcer video now shows.)
7. Bluntly, this is where you are right. They are using the templated 4e optional tabletop builds as character class builds for the MMO, so new players can select a class. I can't comment on the customization being worked on for making the Cryptic character what it is award winning for, but know the feedback given on this by you and others is not being ignored here and elsewhere. I will say the way people looked at attribute points for DDO between win and gimped here should not be a problem due to the 4e setup of balance both in a solo and group setup.
Thanks for taking the time to read my replies and hope if I don't solve concerns it can cause discussion to help develop solutions.
Nice job. Yep, number 7 is where I worry.
I'd like to see the ability to reset my subclass or something. I'd still be a rogue, but I could rework my skills. Something like in Realms Online.
"Truth is absolute, so if you truly seek it, you can find only one answer."
For those who are too lazy to do their homework, but still want to bash cryptic for the game, I will present a weak list of 7 points which are bash-able.
Afterall, if you are going to do it anyways, do it properly and accurately.(And thus avoiding me any more of facepalms, else I am afraid I might go bald on the forehead.)
==> Pre-made builds
==> PvP balancing interfering with PvE and making PvE/combat bland
==> Lockboxes/IG-gambling and legal issues related to it
==> Gold farming
==> Inability of foundry to make non-linear campaigns
==> Game engine not supporting things like moving platforms etc.
==> Pay to win (they keep saying its not, but they are not releasing any detailed info on that)
Not that big of issue except maybe first, but at least it accurately attacks cryptic's perceived weak points.
The fact that you brushed off DDO so quickly is what loses the most credibility with me. All these things that you're saying that you want are in DDO: Smaller damage numbers. Reasonable level cap. Real D&D rules and gameplay. Skills that match 3.5 exactly. etc. And you didn't even give it a chance.
You must be familiar with with psychological reinforcement theory to understand why they'd want to give you a larger number of smaller reinforcements in order to retain you as a player. Basically: Give someone a reward for doing something and they'll do it longer. If a player wants a piece of gear for doing a dungeon, and you give it to him, then it is likely that he will be willing to do another dungeon with expectations of another piece of gear. The player can be trained to accept that he must do more work between peices of gear but if they push the limit then they will find that many people will just stop playing, and thus they will lose thier opportunity to sell things in the item shop. A better idea is to find ways that they can give players rewards more often. Higher Damage numbers and more levels are both ways to do this.
1. Huge damage numbers.
In the Pen-n-paper version your damage numbers didn't get all that large because you'd calculate them using dice and nobody wanted to count the pips on a hundred ten-sided dice all at once, so they stuck with the smaller numbers. In the computer version of the same game then you can start with a weapon that does 10-80 damage and it'd be basically the same scale as a pen-n-paper weapon that does 1-8 damage. The difference is that in pen-n-paper you'd add +1 to your damage because there was basically no way to easily add a smaller amount. On the computer you can add damage in effectively smaller increments due to the larger numbers, which means that they can throw upgrades your way much more often, which should theoretically keep you more interested longer. It has nothing to do with inflating your ego, and everything to do with player retention. Also, the videos where they were showing 4k damage may have been a higher level character.
2. Level cap 60
4E level cap is 30. What this basically means is each one of your MMO character's levels is the equivalent of one-half of a pen-n-paper character's level. Thus when you're MMO level 8 then you're PNP level 4. Or when you're MMO level 15 then you're PNP level 7.5. It is done this way in order to give you the feeling while playing that you're actually advancing by giving you more milestones and giving you the feeling that you're constantly making progress.
They want to make the game last a long time but if they were going strictly by the PNP rules then you'd have exactly ten encounters per level, and in a video game an encounter lasts at most 1 minute. Since it'd only take 300 encounters to reach level 30 then you've only got 300 minutes (5 hours) of gameplay to max level and this would be a really short-lived MMO. More likely they're probably aiming for something like at least 60 hours of gameplay to reach max level, which means much more than 300 encounters. At that rate you'd only be gaining a level every two hours if there were 30 levels, but they increased it to 60 levels over the same time period so that you'll be getting a level per hour and it'll feel like you're actually making progress. Also the per-kill experience will appear to be twice as much which is another reward that can be given to a player.
Yes, I can 100% guarantee you that they will be selling experience boosts.
Diablo 3 isn't an MMO. Period. Its a multiplayer game with an auction house. It shares VERY few similarities with NWO.
3. Reworked skills not actually D&D rules any more.
4E skills were oversimplified. This is one of the few things that I didn't much like about 4E. I'm not familiar with how they're doing skills in NWO, but ANY change must be an improvement over how 4E did it.
"Who cares about the lore; DMs make up their own campaigns."
I must be the only one here who understands what you're actually saying. The content that they're creating and pushing on everyone is just a new creation and while I'm interested in playing it eventually, I'm more interested in making my own NWO campaigns. Some of the lore in D&D is boring. Some of it is awesome.
"All anyone knows from Forgotten Realms lore is Drizzt."
... And what we learned in Icewind Dale 1 & 2, Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2, four Baldur's gate games, and a couple of Forgotten Realms PNP sourcebooks and a handful of other games and well-known adventure boxed sets like Undermountain. Actually, you know there's a whole wiki devoted just to the Forgotten Realms?
"We want D&D computer game with REAL D&D rules and gameplay."
No, not really. The rules aren't what are important in the game. They are a means to experience a world. We want a computer game that resembles and feels like the D&D world and is familiar, and is a new area that we haven't explored before. We want a D&D computer game that is FUN to play. And we want a D&D computer game that will keep us distracted for 500+ hours. And we want a D&D computer game that we can spend some money on so that they'll keep the servers up and we'll get useful worthwhile return for our spending. And we want purple winged horsies with shiny armor that can talk and shape shift... okay, so we don't all want the same thing. Maybe we need to take a poll before we come to the conclusion about what "We" want.
"If we wanted to play WoW we would be. You release a wow clone and people will go straight back to wow."
I'm never going back to WoW. Might go back to DDO. Or Planetside. I would, however, play a WoW clone which took place in forgotten realms.
4. Action combat but no talk about why this won't be bad for high pings.
You're right, they haven't talked much about how the action combat will be affected by a high latency. You'd think that if they came up with a system to combat the issues with high latency so that a player wouldn't feel like they're lagging then they'd be bragging about it more so that people wouldn't worry so much. On one hand, it is an action-oriented online game so you can already know what you're getting into if your connection sucks now, and its the same as every action-oriented online game in that respect. Nothing new here, assuming the problems aren't on thier end.
In most games if a monster moves and you're lagging then it appears that the monster jumps around, or that you jump around erratically or that everything is rubber-banding all over the place. I can think of a way that they'd work with latency, but on the other hand, I'm not a MMO programmer or a network programmer, so I don't know how possible it would be to implement.
6. Active Blocking is not in D&D.
There are full defense actions in D&D, which obviously equate to "Hold up your shield" in some cases. They're just boring so nobody uses them. If you could make them a fun part of gameplay because you only have to block for a second rather than one whole agonizingly long round of play, then I think they should absolutely be included.
What are we trying to do here if not make a more accurate depiction of how a D&D combat might actually be executed. Do you think that your D&D character never holds up his shield? Do you think that he just hopes that more attacks come from his left? No. He's going to occasionally CONCENTRATE on blocking when a big attack comes in. When most little attacks against you are being made then you don't need to worry about it so much because you do still have armor to block those while you do some damage. You should be grateful that the designers have put that ability in your hands.
Also, you can bet that shields give Armor bonuses of some sort as well, so its not like you're missing out on that.
Nobody is ever going to tell the tank to stop attacking because if he did then the monsters would ignore him and kill everyone else. Your whole thought about group play is going to suck because of blocking has already been pictured by someone else who has already spent a whole lot more time than you very carefully considering thier design decisions that led to the inclusion of actively blocking.
7. Classes seem like templates.
This also worries me. I want to see what character creation and advancement is like. They keep saying that they've got systems where you can deeply customize your character so I guess we have to trust them at this point. But the trust is hard when they present thier characters the way they do in thier promo videos. Maybe the problem actually is with character advancement, but then again maybe the problem is just with the promo videos.
"LET US ROLL GIMPED CHARACTERS." Hellz yes. I love trying to figure out how to make my character better. This would be better if we were able to change our characters after creation so that we can learn as we go and correct our mistakes without starting over completely.
2. Level cap 60
4E level cap is 30. What this basically means is each one of your MMO character's levels is the equivalent of one-half of a pen-n-paper character's level. Thus when you're MMO level 8 then you're PNP level 4. Or when you're MMO level 15 then you're PNP level 7.5. It is done this way in order to give you the feeling while playing that you're actually advancing by giving you more milestones and giving you the feeling that you're constantly making progress.
....
Inaccurate. Otherwise, fluid easy to explain language, nice!
Lvl 20 = lvl 60. Epic is not there at launch.
Hence lvl 15 = lvl 5
Just like DDO has 4 sub levels each level, lvl 20 in DDO = 20x4=80
In NW, they were planning to add 3 sub-levels each level, but they found it very confusing and odd to have 3 sub levels. So they added multiplier to Lvl itself.
..4E skills were oversimplified. This is one of the few things that I didn't much like about 4E. I'm not familiar with how they're doing skills in NWO, but ANY change must be an improvement over how 4E did it...
Actually 4e's skills do more things than 3e, so it is not oversimlification but an extension of previous edition.
...You're right, they haven't talked much about how the action combat will be affected by a high latency....
One server does not mean one physical shard. Hence Latency will not be deendent on location. Ofcourse, NA has most servers than anywhere else, so latency can be high there, but it will also be high(perhaps higher) in countries where internet infrastucture is in general, better.
Actually 4e's skills do more things than 3e, so it is not oversimlification but an extension of previous edition.
This thrilled me at the time. Hated in 3.5 all the different Knowledge (whatever) skills, realizing that I could not hear through the door or find the hidden treasure once I got through because I put my points into Spot, not Listen and Search.
I also liked that Detect Magic in 4e is an Arcana skill check, because anyone who knows enough about magic should be able to identify it's presence, even if they cannot get high enough to figure out what exactly is going on. It is silly for a wizard, trained in the art of using magic and nothing else to use one of the extremely limited spells per day to do something like that, and if they don't have it prepared, oh well, no better chance of noticing magic than a half-orc barbarian.
I like it too. I only have experience with 3e and then transferred to 4e. My other PnP companions used to lay earlier editions too - they are also very happy. However, they are not absolutely blow away by it because according to them, earlier editions used to do like that.
But for me, this classification was a new thing and very innovative. A fighter with dungeoneering being good with directions (and if literate - good with maps too). I don't think I remember 3e making use of skills for that. Map reading and directions are two very basic adventuring skills.
A 'faithful' reincarnation of an old game with dark tint is what you are looking for, ya? Wizardry Online is launching. Try that. Us NWO lurkers will follow NWO and its NWO NWOness.
Lore, Story, and their Delivery are extremely important to me in any RPG, which includes MMORPGs. Now add that Neverwinter Online is set in the Forgotten Realms (something I have loved and enjoyed for more than half my life) this means that to me, nothing else is as important in the game than it's Lore, Story and their Delivery. That's just me though, a Forgotten Realms addict, lover, player, and DM.
If I buy a board game of Star Wars Monopoly am I playing Star Wars or monopoly?
What If It was a Forgotten Realms themed Monopoly with Baldurs Gate and Neverwinter as Park Lane and Mayfair. Are we playing a Dungeons and Dragons game or are we playing monopoly still?
The lore can change with the campaign but the rules and the gameplay they offer must remain for the game to actually be played.
If you care about lore more than gameplay maybe what you want is a nice novel to read in the bath and not a computer game.
Anyway!
Thanks for all the great replies from everyone. To be honest the lag is the biggest issue for me, some are non-issues and It seems clear no one wants template classes.
To clear a couple of things up,
I'm not a pen and paper player. I've just been waiting to try the new 4E rules in a computer game since I heard they existed way back in 2007! All I want is a medium where I can try the new rules and see what its all about in as legitimate a way as possible. I'm perfectly aware EVERY D&D computer game has butchered the rules to a degree. But it seems like they're going overboard to make it more like a wow-clone. In BG2 the biggest single hit I could achieve was with a kensai/thief with stacked epic feats carefully set up with pauses. Was about 500 damage. What we're seeing here isn't in line with tabletop but its also not in line with Neverwinter or any D&D computer games.
I played plenty of DDO and all I said about it was the free business model sucked. I played subscribed as VIP for a while. The free version you'd walk up to a dungeon and it would tell you it was locked. I'd wander around trying to find something I could actually enter that was my level and it was just a mess. I also didn't like the addition of a mana bar and my sorcerer being able to fire off 100 magic missiles without memorizing his spells. 4E works better for a computer game and won't need a non-D&D manabar.
Daggerdale, maybe you're right. But I played with with 2 other people and they abandoned it first and It really wasn't good enough to carry on with alone. It's at least pretty <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, cmon... Maybe not "very, very" but pretty <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
From the replies I did learn something I had somehow missed. The 60 levels only cover 20 levels and epic levels are not in. This is one of those things I'd give the benefit of the doubt about. It will probably be added in a future update. "8. Not enough races/classes" could easily have been a point. But Knights of the Chalice only had 3 classes and some tactical combat that put any goldbox or darksun to shame, so it can work out well. (Oh, I forgot to mention ToEE!) Of course, the vast amount of unique races/classes in 4E is a big part of what makes it awesome and I really don't see why you wouldn't try to beat Neverwinter Nights 2 on race count. Sterile, balanced and safe template classes sounds extremely boring.
Wizardry Online? Yeah, I rolled a +40 bonus point dwarf fighter. The game is alright, but having to run back to town with full bags several times to clear a dungeon made me lose interest around the 4th or 5th. I hate the art style though, a lot. Not dark enough. And as a player of wizardry 7 I thought they left out the best races and classes for sure. Solo Fairy ninja!
I do have a good videocard and can't wait to see how it looks on my system!
Whats the point of the post, you ask? Well, it was pretty funny, wasn't it? Hyperbolic madness at its finest! But the thing is, Truthseeker...
I want to love... But I've been hurt before. So many times!
Its all "constructive" criticism for my most wanted game.
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xearrikMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, SilverstarsPosts: 323Arc User
If I buy a board game of Star Wars Monopoly am I playing Star Wars or monopoly?
What If It was a Forgotten Realms themed Monopoly with Baldurs Gate and Neverwinter as Park Lane and Mayfair. Are we playing a Dungeons and Dragons game or are we playing monopoly still?
The lore can change with the campaign but the rules and the gameplay they offer must remain for the game to actually be played.
If you care about lore more than gameplay maybe what you want is a nice novel to read in the bath and not a computer game
You wont be able to convince people who enjoy lore that they don't need it. You don't get point in lore, that's fine. But its pointless trying to convince people they are wrong for enjoying lore in their video games.
Da kitties don't speak for me, deez kitties speak fur us all!
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I'll Keep this up till beta goes live. I'll improve it soon.
If I buy a board game of Star Wars Monopoly am I playing Star Wars or monopoly?
What If It was a Forgotten Realms themed Monopoly with Baldurs Gate and Neverwinter as Park Lane and Mayfair. Are we playing a Dungeons and Dragons game or are we playing monopoly still?
The lore can change with the campaign but the rules and the gameplay they offer must remain for the game to actually be played.
If you care about lore more than gameplay maybe what you want is a nice novel to read in the bath and not a computer game.
For me, #7 is what has kept me away for so long. I just dropped in today to see how far things had progressed and see if I was mistaken about #7.
I was really excited about NW. I even purchased the 4e rules and expansions (NW campaign guide, etc.). But more and more it feels like NW paint on just another MMO. Now that is my opinion, and I know there are those who feel STRONGLY that I am full of bull <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, but the more I see the less D&D it seems to me.
I can live with MMOing and changing/adapting rules to make the game work. I even still enjoy DDO sometimes. But #7... yeah that one irks me. That is the game breaker for me most likely.
What If It was a Forgotten Realms themed Monopoly with Baldurs Gate and Neverwinter as Park Lane and Mayfair. Are we playing a Dungeons and Dragons game or are we playing monopoly still?
...
I don't really see where the problem lies. FR boasts of many intelligent merchants. It is not unlikely for one of them to come up with a game similar to what you call monopoly, though real estate and things would be "medivialish in fantasy settings". It may also contain dragons, otherwise it may not be popular among folks of Faerun.
If they name it monopoly, that is just a coincidence - but names like "Own a dragon Lair" or something would be more catchy for Faerun.
But it seems like they're going overboard to make it more like a wow-clone.
I guess you didn't hear that 4E is basically WoW on paper. That has always been one of the biggest complaints against 4E, even though I thought the addition of the trinity (tank/dps/heals) worked very well. In the pen-and-paper version I've seen parties that didn't stick to the trinity setup for thier party and still managed to (barely) survive with no healer and a tank which was built for damage.
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morbicMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Lore is one thing I personally care very much about in the FR setting. It's where I ran my campaigns way back in the day as a GM, it's where I based my NWN campaigns on when I hosted games back then and I am familiar with and have time invested in it.
I want this game to succeed, I miss D&D quite a bit.
There is a rumor floating around that I am working on a new foundry quest. It was started by me.
$199.99 will get you immediate access to 8 and 9 and a 5 day headstart on the preview of 10!
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b00mstickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
Every MMO that sells story this story that, has failed. I'm not saying story isn't important because it is. But story doesn't make mmo's. Ask SW:ToR.
They have already stated that this won't be a literal dnd ruleset. Pretty much the only thing that is dnd in this game is some names of things, and the story which tbh isn't DnD, it's forgotten realms. So many people like my self that love the DnD ruleset, even just the basics, are going to be hugely disappointed.
And now i see they are looking for people to pay $200 for beta access, and, exclusive access to the drow race. ROFL. So far away from what DnD is it's not even funny. I was so happy when i saw this game, for both DnD and Neverwinter. Every day i come to these forums i get more and more disappointed. Many other DnD fans will be really disappointed as well when they see that they get to play the class the way cryptic wants you to play it and no deviation at all. Welcome to the world after warcraft. Clone, after clone, after themepark clone.
I thought for once someone got it - that people were getting tired of the themepark clone. But i guess they didn't.
I would also like to add that this game had/has a lot going for it, it may even be a great game in the end. But it won't be DnD. It will be Forgotten Realms at its best.
Every MMO that sells story this story that, has failed. I'm not saying story isn't important because it is. But story doesn't make mmo's. Ask SW:ToR.
ToR failed for more reasons than this, but they didn't fail on story. There are three "ingredients" to an MMO which allows it to do well. There are some articles you can research, but story is one leg. Without any story, there's no reason to do anything but grind. If you want an "MMO" which is doing poorly with advancement and zero story, play Mechwarrior Online. ToR's problem was that they relied SOLELY on story and the rest of it was sort of weak.
They have already stated that this won't be a literal dnd ruleset. Pretty much the only thing that is dnd in this game is some names of things, and the story which tbh isn't DnD, it's forgotten realms. So many people like my self that love the DnD ruleset, even just the basics, are going to be hugely disappointed.
Pen and paper doesn't translate well for a real-time game. I was an NWN fan in the day, even won awards for building PWs, but yeah, it doesn't work for an entertaining real-time game. It all depends on your cup of tea. I'm a big DnD fan, been playing since the red box, and am dedicated to the ruleset for DnD. However, honestly, it doesn't really work for a real-time action game.
And now i see they are looking for people to pay $200 for beta access, and, exclusive access to the drow race. ROFL. So far away from what DnD is it's not even funny. I was so happy when i saw this game, for both DnD and Neverwinter. Every day i come to these forums i get more and more disappointed. Many other DnD fans will be really disappointed as well when they see that they get to play the class the way cryptic wants you to play it and no deviation at all. Welcome to the world after warcraft. Clone, after clone, after themepark clone.
You've made a lot of (wrong or assumptive) statements here. First, the access is to a specific background. Drow are available to any player. The "drow renegade" background (which gives specific feats/abilities/options) is available to those who pay. It's primarily flavor. Want to play Drizzt? Pay. If not, leave it. I won't be. I'd like to support a company, but not at that price.
As far as the rest of your statement, we can only flip a coin on whether you are right or wrong. Initially, it may well be so. Or there might be "freeform" characters, where you can choose powers which unlock depending upon other powers you get (like Champions). Who knows? I haven't played it, and I doubt you have.
I agree that the "paid beta" video was very poorly done, cheesy, and actually turned me off of playing (make your friends jealous with the cool stuff!), but you're making a large assumptive leap. One thing WOW does not have is user generated content. That might be the saving grace for this game.
I thought for once someone got it - that people were getting tired of the themepark clone. But i guess they didn't.
I would also like to add that this game had/has a lot going for it, it may even be a great game in the end. But it won't be DnD. It will be Forgotten Realms at its best.
Again, this is a pretty assumptive statement. The main thing that will make the difference in this game is the Foundry. If people are able to create some pretty involving dungeons/quests with great flavor (as they did for NWN, sans remote server environments; I'm just talking the SP mods here) or at least create some great stories, I think that your statement about "WoW Clone" will be very wrong.
Just using standard content, no hacks or custom scripts, I've helped make a few single-player modules for NWN which were incredible, involving and incredibly detailed as to lore, etc. I made a persistent world without any haks, custom content or scripts which remained in the Roleplay section for years (seven, actually) and had over 12,000 die-hard FR players, all lore fiends, and kept many happy for years.
Whether we get enough options with the Foundry or not to entertain, remains to be seen. It hasn't been talked about enough to say one way or the other.
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b00mstickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
First, note that I'm very cautious as regards this game. I'm not a fanboy. However, there are some inaccuracies in your comment.
ToR failed for more reasons than this, but they didn't fail on story. There are three "ingredients" to an MMO which allows it to do well. There are some articles you can research, but story is one leg. Without any story, there's no reason to do anything but grind. If you want an "MMO" which is doing poorly with advancement and zero story, play Mechwarrior Online. ToR's problem was that they relied SOLELY on story and the rest of it was sort of weak.
Pen and paper doesn't translate well for a real-time game. I was an NWN fan in the day, even won awards for building PWs, but yeah, it doesn't work for an entertaining real-time game. It all depends on your cup of tea. I'm a big DnD fan, been playing since the red box, and am dedicated to the ruleset for DnD. However, honestly, it doesn't really work for a real-time action game.
You've made a lot of (wrong or assumptive) statements here. First, the access is to a specific background. Drow are available to any player. The "drow renegade" background (which gives specific feats/abilities/options) is available to those who pay. It's primarily flavor. Want to play Drizzt? Pay. If not, leave it. I won't be. I'd like to support a company, but not at that price.
As far as the rest of your statement, we can only flip a coin on whether you are right or wrong. Initially, it may well be so. Or there might be "freeform" characters, where you can choose powers which unlock depending upon other powers you get (like Champions). Who knows? I haven't played it, and I doubt you have.
I agree that the "paid beta" video was very poorly done, cheesy, and actually turned me off of playing (make your friends jealous with the cool stuff!), but you're making a large assumptive leap. One thing WOW does not have is user generated content. That might be the saving grace for this game.
Again, this is a pretty assumptive statement. The main thing that will make the difference in this game is the Foundry. If people are able to create some pretty involving dungeons/quests with great flavor (as they did for NWN, sans remote server environments; I'm just talking the SP mods here) or at least create some great stories, I think that your statement about "WoW Clone" will be very wrong.
Just using standard content, no hacks or custom scripts, I've helped make a few single-player modules for NWN which were incredible, involving and incredibly detailed as to lore, etc. I made a persistent world without any haks, custom content or scripts which remained in the Roleplay section for years (seven, actually) and had over 12,000 die-hard FR players, all lore fiends, and kept many happy for years.
Whether we get enough options with the Foundry or not to entertain, remains to be seen. It hasn't been talked about enough to say one way or the other.
I agree with everything you said accept for the d20 ruleset not working in an action oriented environment. Not saying that DDO is perfect in any way but it is damn good, on top of the list of the most successful F2P mmo's (once it went f2p) and is also one of the highest grossing. It uses a dnd ruleset ( not a perfect literal representation mind you but all the good stuff is there) and it is action oriented.
Also you argued with my statement about tor but yet said the same thing with just more words. I didn't say the story was bad. But basing it totally on story is for single player games. The story runs out eventually then people move on to the next. And i completely agree about the foundry. It is probably the only good point it has going for it right now.
However take the foundry out and there will be very little DnD and mostly all Forgotten Realms. Again isn't a bad thing i just feel in my personal opinion that putting DnD in the title of the game is misleading when it will be champions online in a fantasy setting, with a cool (hopefully) foundry.
Oh and i guess i mis interpreted the drow race thing so i apologize.
Originally Posted by lanessar13 Pen and paper doesn't translate well for a real-time game. I was an NWN fan in the day, even won awards for building PWs, but yeah, it doesn't work for an entertaining real-time game. It all depends on your cup of tea. I'm a big DnD fan, been playing since the red box, and am dedicated to the ruleset for DnD. However, honestly, it doesn't really work for a real-time action game.
I hope we can keep your interest for more creative work. Looks like without allowing deities and alignment matter that much in any back story to fuel interest, we are left with a path of hollow allegiance without much merit. It will be the creators job to replace things like these with end rewards in the foundry adventures.
ToR failed for more reasons than this, but they didn't fail on story. There are three "ingredients" to an MMO which allows it to do well. There are some articles you can research, but story is one leg. Without any story, there's no reason to do anything but grind. If you want an "MMO" which is doing poorly with advancement and zero story, play Mechwarrior Online. ToR's problem was that they relied SOLELY on story and the rest of it was sort of weak.
I think the point he was making was that ToR put so much emphasis on storytelling that that's all that people played it for. They zipped through the story campaigns and then went back to playing WoW.
The point is a valid one. Story is nice and the more the merrier, but at the end of the day, what keeps people logging back in is whether or not its just plain fun to play. Yes, even for the people for whom story is just a diversion. Some of the most passionate player bases in WoW are PvP and progression guilds who see it as just a game to be enjoyed.
The stories and information posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact.
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b00mstickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I think the point he was making was that ToR put so much emphasis on storytelling that that's all that people played it for. They zipped through the story campaigns and then went back to playing WoW.
The point is a valid one. Story is nice and the more the merrier, but at the end of the day, what keeps people logging back in is whether or not its just plain fun to play. Yes, even for the people for whom story is just a diversion. Some of the most passionate player bases in WoW are PvP and progression guilds who see it as just a game to be enjoyed.
Thank you, yes that is exactly what i meant which was cleared up in a rebuttal. But you say it much better than i did. Story is awsome and something that mmo's have lost in the RPG world over the years. But at the end of the day, story only lasts for so long and if there is nothing else that is worth staying around, then people will just move on. The foundry is neat but there isn't going to be an explosion of amazing content coming from it. The majority will be just random stuff or setup dungeons in attempt to exploit something. A small portion will probably be amazing. But again, once you have exasperated all that, whats left?
Also as neat as the foundry is, ive seen the demo of it on youtube, and to be honest i don't think its going to be as powerful as most think or hope it will be. It is very functional yes, but the "story" portion is going to be from reading a book which most people aren't going to do.
The main reason wow's story isn't that great is because it doesn't tell a story. You have to dig that story out of it and go out of your way. This will be the same problem here. You will have to read pages of lore with in the foundry made quest to get the story. You cant add voice overs or anything like that so story telling will only be so affective when most ADHD gamers will just click the accept button and move on. I understand there are those that are there for the story, and they will read all the stuff, but that wont be the majority. Its just a fact of the mmo world these days.
Comments
yeah i think that's my feeling on it. It was a cheapo game that i got on xbox live. It had a nice action rpg feel to it... it was fun. It's not like i expected it to be dragon age 3 or anything.
I feel like too many people expect games to be AAA titles ALL the time.
That is the one thing I am convinced that D&D is vastly superiour to all the others. The reason for that is simple: D&D chatakter customization and building over the course of the adventure/game has obviously never been intended for PvP. A classic D&D Sorcerer can blast away a Fighter with ease, whereas he can throw everything at a Rogue who will evade all. Multi-Classing makes the attempt to balance the whole thing for PvP even more a nightmare.
Therefore for PvP to be implemented they HAVE to implement SOME kind of restrictions in the first place. Otherwise balancing the different possible builds against each other would be nigh impossibru. And yet, the original feel of the charakter CANNOT be lost or WoW and the others become much more attractive to the gamers again. That is a line I sure would not want to walk because it is slippery like hell, but what I've seen so far (Trickster Rogue, Great Weapon Fighter, Control Wizard) tells me that whoever walks it does so successfully - the feel of the classes seems to be preserved and still strong enough restrictions to make balancing possible seem to be in place.
Looking at the huge worlds of D&D the above is only a small part, though an important one. The rest can and, as my guts tell me, will be just like D&D fans are used to: rich, deep, colorful/joyful where appropriate and dark/depressing where appropriate. In full knowledge that there is no guarantee whatsoever I raised my odds to get into the beta as high as I could, looking forward to exploring the core story and all the sidestories the community will create (myself included - what I've seen of the foundry is just awesome).
One question I have though: Do we happen to know if there will be a day/night cycle that is shorter than RL (maybe 3 or 4 hours for a full cycle)?
Greetings and see you ingame eventually,
Rustyplayer
P.S. GIEF BETA PLOX!! xD
However I will try to review without much torment to him.
The game which shall not be named was a good game, like an epic bard build which is not spoony, or an epic druid which hates the wilds - the problem with the game which shall not be named was that it was marketed not as a healthy person but like a person with his guts spilling out as he has no skin, a few bones missing, a piece of brain dangling out of nose ... etc. (Let us not go to gory details).
If the A***** company did not disembowel the game which shall not be named, the game which shall not be named can have become a game which I could write about.
A**** knew it that is why marketed as cheap. A**** in fact has a great record in killing many great games in most gory ways.
Poor D********, she was no match for the monster A*****. She got owned.
~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~ ~~~~
The worst thing about game which shall not be named was that like in last part of matrix when Nebuchadnezzar (or was it the ship with fat a$$?) comes out of the dirty skyline and she sees and says beautiful! Same way when you are able to come out of the mines, you see that beauty or when the lurker role is faithfully implemented - however it was dissected, disemboweled and defecated on by A***** just before release, after it did horrible things to it.
Nice job. Yep, number 7 is where I worry.
I'd like to see the ability to reset my subclass or something. I'd still be a rogue, but I could rework my skills. Something like in Realms Online.
Afterall, if you are going to do it anyways, do it properly and accurately.(And thus avoiding me any more of facepalms, else I am afraid I might go bald on the forehead.)
==> Pre-made builds
==> PvP balancing interfering with PvE and making PvE/combat bland
==> Lockboxes/IG-gambling and legal issues related to it
==> Gold farming
==> Inability of foundry to make non-linear campaigns
==> Game engine not supporting things like moving platforms etc.
==> Pay to win (they keep saying its not, but they are not releasing any detailed info on that)
Not that big of issue except maybe first, but at least it accurately attacks cryptic's perceived weak points.
You must be familiar with with psychological reinforcement theory to understand why they'd want to give you a larger number of smaller reinforcements in order to retain you as a player. Basically: Give someone a reward for doing something and they'll do it longer. If a player wants a piece of gear for doing a dungeon, and you give it to him, then it is likely that he will be willing to do another dungeon with expectations of another piece of gear. The player can be trained to accept that he must do more work between peices of gear but if they push the limit then they will find that many people will just stop playing, and thus they will lose thier opportunity to sell things in the item shop. A better idea is to find ways that they can give players rewards more often. Higher Damage numbers and more levels are both ways to do this.
1. Huge damage numbers.
In the Pen-n-paper version your damage numbers didn't get all that large because you'd calculate them using dice and nobody wanted to count the pips on a hundred ten-sided dice all at once, so they stuck with the smaller numbers. In the computer version of the same game then you can start with a weapon that does 10-80 damage and it'd be basically the same scale as a pen-n-paper weapon that does 1-8 damage. The difference is that in pen-n-paper you'd add +1 to your damage because there was basically no way to easily add a smaller amount. On the computer you can add damage in effectively smaller increments due to the larger numbers, which means that they can throw upgrades your way much more often, which should theoretically keep you more interested longer. It has nothing to do with inflating your ego, and everything to do with player retention. Also, the videos where they were showing 4k damage may have been a higher level character.
2. Level cap 60
4E level cap is 30. What this basically means is each one of your MMO character's levels is the equivalent of one-half of a pen-n-paper character's level. Thus when you're MMO level 8 then you're PNP level 4. Or when you're MMO level 15 then you're PNP level 7.5. It is done this way in order to give you the feeling while playing that you're actually advancing by giving you more milestones and giving you the feeling that you're constantly making progress.
They want to make the game last a long time but if they were going strictly by the PNP rules then you'd have exactly ten encounters per level, and in a video game an encounter lasts at most 1 minute. Since it'd only take 300 encounters to reach level 30 then you've only got 300 minutes (5 hours) of gameplay to max level and this would be a really short-lived MMO. More likely they're probably aiming for something like at least 60 hours of gameplay to reach max level, which means much more than 300 encounters. At that rate you'd only be gaining a level every two hours if there were 30 levels, but they increased it to 60 levels over the same time period so that you'll be getting a level per hour and it'll feel like you're actually making progress. Also the per-kill experience will appear to be twice as much which is another reward that can be given to a player.
Yes, I can 100% guarantee you that they will be selling experience boosts.
Diablo 3 isn't an MMO. Period. Its a multiplayer game with an auction house. It shares VERY few similarities with NWO.
3. Reworked skills not actually D&D rules any more.
4E skills were oversimplified. This is one of the few things that I didn't much like about 4E. I'm not familiar with how they're doing skills in NWO, but ANY change must be an improvement over how 4E did it.
"Who cares about the lore; DMs make up their own campaigns."
I must be the only one here who understands what you're actually saying. The content that they're creating and pushing on everyone is just a new creation and while I'm interested in playing it eventually, I'm more interested in making my own NWO campaigns. Some of the lore in D&D is boring. Some of it is awesome.
"All anyone knows from Forgotten Realms lore is Drizzt."
... And what we learned in Icewind Dale 1 & 2, Neverwinter Nights 1 & 2, four Baldur's gate games, and a couple of Forgotten Realms PNP sourcebooks and a handful of other games and well-known adventure boxed sets like Undermountain. Actually, you know there's a whole wiki devoted just to the Forgotten Realms?
"We want D&D computer game with REAL D&D rules and gameplay."
No, not really. The rules aren't what are important in the game. They are a means to experience a world. We want a computer game that resembles and feels like the D&D world and is familiar, and is a new area that we haven't explored before. We want a D&D computer game that is FUN to play. And we want a D&D computer game that will keep us distracted for 500+ hours. And we want a D&D computer game that we can spend some money on so that they'll keep the servers up and we'll get useful worthwhile return for our spending. And we want purple winged horsies with shiny armor that can talk and shape shift... okay, so we don't all want the same thing. Maybe we need to take a poll before we come to the conclusion about what "We" want.
"If we wanted to play WoW we would be. You release a wow clone and people will go straight back to wow."
I'm never going back to WoW. Might go back to DDO. Or Planetside. I would, however, play a WoW clone which took place in forgotten realms.
4. Action combat but no talk about why this won't be bad for high pings.
You're right, they haven't talked much about how the action combat will be affected by a high latency. You'd think that if they came up with a system to combat the issues with high latency so that a player wouldn't feel like they're lagging then they'd be bragging about it more so that people wouldn't worry so much. On one hand, it is an action-oriented online game so you can already know what you're getting into if your connection sucks now, and its the same as every action-oriented online game in that respect. Nothing new here, assuming the problems aren't on thier end.
In most games if a monster moves and you're lagging then it appears that the monster jumps around, or that you jump around erratically or that everything is rubber-banding all over the place. I can think of a way that they'd work with latency, but on the other hand, I'm not a MMO programmer or a network programmer, so I don't know how possible it would be to implement.
6. Active Blocking is not in D&D.
There are full defense actions in D&D, which obviously equate to "Hold up your shield" in some cases. They're just boring so nobody uses them. If you could make them a fun part of gameplay because you only have to block for a second rather than one whole agonizingly long round of play, then I think they should absolutely be included.
What are we trying to do here if not make a more accurate depiction of how a D&D combat might actually be executed. Do you think that your D&D character never holds up his shield? Do you think that he just hopes that more attacks come from his left? No. He's going to occasionally CONCENTRATE on blocking when a big attack comes in. When most little attacks against you are being made then you don't need to worry about it so much because you do still have armor to block those while you do some damage. You should be grateful that the designers have put that ability in your hands.
Also, you can bet that shields give Armor bonuses of some sort as well, so its not like you're missing out on that.
Nobody is ever going to tell the tank to stop attacking because if he did then the monsters would ignore him and kill everyone else. Your whole thought about group play is going to suck because of blocking has already been pictured by someone else who has already spent a whole lot more time than you very carefully considering thier design decisions that led to the inclusion of actively blocking.
7. Classes seem like templates.
This also worries me. I want to see what character creation and advancement is like. They keep saying that they've got systems where you can deeply customize your character so I guess we have to trust them at this point. But the trust is hard when they present thier characters the way they do in thier promo videos. Maybe the problem actually is with character advancement, but then again maybe the problem is just with the promo videos.
"LET US ROLL GIMPED CHARACTERS." Hellz yes. I love trying to figure out how to make my character better. This would be better if we were able to change our characters after creation so that we can learn as we go and correct our mistakes without starting over completely.
Inaccurate.
Otherwise, fluid easy to explain language, nice!
Lvl 20 = lvl 60. Epic is not there at launch.
Hence lvl 15 = lvl 5
Just like DDO has 4 sub levels each level, lvl 20 in DDO = 20x4=80
In NW, they were planning to add 3 sub-levels each level, but they found it very confusing and odd to have 3 sub levels. So they added multiplier to Lvl itself.
Actually 4e's skills do more things than 3e, so it is not oversimlification but an extension of previous edition.
One server does not mean one physical shard. Hence Latency will not be deendent on location. Ofcourse, NA has most servers than anywhere else, so latency can be high there, but it will also be high(perhaps higher) in countries where internet infrastucture is in general, better.
This thrilled me at the time. Hated in 3.5 all the different Knowledge (whatever) skills, realizing that I could not hear through the door or find the hidden treasure once I got through because I put my points into Spot, not Listen and Search.
I also liked that Detect Magic in 4e is an Arcana skill check, because anyone who knows enough about magic should be able to identify it's presence, even if they cannot get high enough to figure out what exactly is going on. It is silly for a wizard, trained in the art of using magic and nothing else to use one of the extremely limited spells per day to do something like that, and if they don't have it prepared, oh well, no better chance of noticing magic than a half-orc barbarian.
I like it too. I only have experience with 3e and then transferred to 4e. My other PnP companions used to lay earlier editions too - they are also very happy. However, they are not absolutely blow away by it because according to them, earlier editions used to do like that.
But for me, this classification was a new thing and very innovative. A fighter with dungeoneering being good with directions (and if literate - good with maps too). I don't think I remember 3e making use of skills for that. Map reading and directions are two very basic adventuring skills.
If I buy a board game of Star Wars Monopoly am I playing Star Wars or monopoly?
What If It was a Forgotten Realms themed Monopoly with Baldurs Gate and Neverwinter as Park Lane and Mayfair. Are we playing a Dungeons and Dragons game or are we playing monopoly still?
The lore can change with the campaign but the rules and the gameplay they offer must remain for the game to actually be played.
If you care about lore more than gameplay maybe what you want is a nice novel to read in the bath and not a computer game.
Anyway!
Thanks for all the great replies from everyone. To be honest the lag is the biggest issue for me, some are non-issues and It seems clear no one wants template classes.
To clear a couple of things up,
I'm not a pen and paper player. I've just been waiting to try the new 4E rules in a computer game since I heard they existed way back in 2007! All I want is a medium where I can try the new rules and see what its all about in as legitimate a way as possible. I'm perfectly aware EVERY D&D computer game has butchered the rules to a degree. But it seems like they're going overboard to make it more like a wow-clone. In BG2 the biggest single hit I could achieve was with a kensai/thief with stacked epic feats carefully set up with pauses. Was about 500 damage. What we're seeing here isn't in line with tabletop but its also not in line with Neverwinter or any D&D computer games.
I played plenty of DDO and all I said about it was the free business model sucked. I played subscribed as VIP for a while. The free version you'd walk up to a dungeon and it would tell you it was locked. I'd wander around trying to find something I could actually enter that was my level and it was just a mess. I also didn't like the addition of a mana bar and my sorcerer being able to fire off 100 magic missiles without memorizing his spells. 4E works better for a computer game and won't need a non-D&D manabar.
Daggerdale, maybe you're right. But I played with with 2 other people and they abandoned it first and It really wasn't good enough to carry on with alone. It's at least pretty <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, cmon... Maybe not "very, very" but pretty <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
From the replies I did learn something I had somehow missed. The 60 levels only cover 20 levels and epic levels are not in. This is one of those things I'd give the benefit of the doubt about. It will probably be added in a future update. "8. Not enough races/classes" could easily have been a point. But Knights of the Chalice only had 3 classes and some tactical combat that put any goldbox or darksun to shame, so it can work out well. (Oh, I forgot to mention ToEE!) Of course, the vast amount of unique races/classes in 4E is a big part of what makes it awesome and I really don't see why you wouldn't try to beat Neverwinter Nights 2 on race count. Sterile, balanced and safe template classes sounds extremely boring.
Wizardry Online? Yeah, I rolled a +40 bonus point dwarf fighter. The game is alright, but having to run back to town with full bags several times to clear a dungeon made me lose interest around the 4th or 5th. I hate the art style though, a lot. Not dark enough. And as a player of wizardry 7 I thought they left out the best races and classes for sure. Solo Fairy ninja!
I do have a good videocard and can't wait to see how it looks on my system!
Whats the point of the post, you ask? Well, it was pretty funny, wasn't it? Hyperbolic madness at its finest! But the thing is, Truthseeker...
I want to love... But I've been hurt before. So many times!
Its all "constructive" criticism for my most wanted game.
You wont be able to convince people who enjoy lore that they don't need it. You don't get point in lore, that's fine. But its pointless trying to convince people they are wrong for enjoying lore in their video games.
Wow../10char
I was really excited about NW. I even purchased the 4e rules and expansions (NW campaign guide, etc.). But more and more it feels like NW paint on just another MMO. Now that is my opinion, and I know there are those who feel STRONGLY that I am full of bull <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>, but the more I see the less D&D it seems to me.
I can live with MMOing and changing/adapting rules to make the game work. I even still enjoy DDO sometimes. But #7... yeah that one irks me. That is the game breaker for me most likely.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qmb9cnx__hA
Lastly:
Actually sir, the video card goes IN your system.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODmAgmK-xIA?!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfB9mWtfM8g
I don't really see where the problem lies. FR boasts of many intelligent merchants. It is not unlikely for one of them to come up with a game similar to what you call monopoly, though real estate and things would be "medivialish in fantasy settings". It may also contain dragons, otherwise it may not be popular among folks of Faerun.
If they name it monopoly, that is just a coincidence - but names like "Own a dragon Lair" or something would be more catchy for Faerun.
I guess you didn't hear that 4E is basically WoW on paper. That has always been one of the biggest complaints against 4E, even though I thought the addition of the trinity (tank/dps/heals) worked very well. In the pen-and-paper version I've seen parties that didn't stick to the trinity setup for thier party and still managed to (barely) survive with no healer and a tank which was built for damage.
Foundry Content:Guide - Custom Channels and List (NW-DHBU9OTOS)
Asset upgrading poll.
The first sentence describes the whole problem in its entirety.
hearsay.
I want this game to succeed, I miss D&D quite a bit.
$199.99 will get you immediate access to 8 and 9 and a 5 day headstart on the preview of 10!
They have already stated that this won't be a literal dnd ruleset. Pretty much the only thing that is dnd in this game is some names of things, and the story which tbh isn't DnD, it's forgotten realms. So many people like my self that love the DnD ruleset, even just the basics, are going to be hugely disappointed.
And now i see they are looking for people to pay $200 for beta access, and, exclusive access to the drow race. ROFL. So far away from what DnD is it's not even funny. I was so happy when i saw this game, for both DnD and Neverwinter. Every day i come to these forums i get more and more disappointed. Many other DnD fans will be really disappointed as well when they see that they get to play the class the way cryptic wants you to play it and no deviation at all. Welcome to the world after warcraft. Clone, after clone, after themepark clone.
I thought for once someone got it - that people were getting tired of the themepark clone. But i guess they didn't.
I would also like to add that this game had/has a lot going for it, it may even be a great game in the end. But it won't be DnD. It will be Forgotten Realms at its best.
You can play the drow without buying this pack. This just pack adds a background for the drow race. It's more like a special sub (sub)race.
ToR failed for more reasons than this, but they didn't fail on story. There are three "ingredients" to an MMO which allows it to do well. There are some articles you can research, but story is one leg. Without any story, there's no reason to do anything but grind. If you want an "MMO" which is doing poorly with advancement and zero story, play Mechwarrior Online. ToR's problem was that they relied SOLELY on story and the rest of it was sort of weak.
Pen and paper doesn't translate well for a real-time game. I was an NWN fan in the day, even won awards for building PWs, but yeah, it doesn't work for an entertaining real-time game. It all depends on your cup of tea. I'm a big DnD fan, been playing since the red box, and am dedicated to the ruleset for DnD. However, honestly, it doesn't really work for a real-time action game.
You've made a lot of (wrong or assumptive) statements here. First, the access is to a specific background. Drow are available to any player. The "drow renegade" background (which gives specific feats/abilities/options) is available to those who pay. It's primarily flavor. Want to play Drizzt? Pay. If not, leave it. I won't be. I'd like to support a company, but not at that price.
As far as the rest of your statement, we can only flip a coin on whether you are right or wrong. Initially, it may well be so. Or there might be "freeform" characters, where you can choose powers which unlock depending upon other powers you get (like Champions). Who knows? I haven't played it, and I doubt you have.
I agree that the "paid beta" video was very poorly done, cheesy, and actually turned me off of playing (make your friends jealous with the cool stuff!), but you're making a large assumptive leap. One thing WOW does not have is user generated content. That might be the saving grace for this game.
Again, this is a pretty assumptive statement. The main thing that will make the difference in this game is the Foundry. If people are able to create some pretty involving dungeons/quests with great flavor (as they did for NWN, sans remote server environments; I'm just talking the SP mods here) or at least create some great stories, I think that your statement about "WoW Clone" will be very wrong.
Just using standard content, no hacks or custom scripts, I've helped make a few single-player modules for NWN which were incredible, involving and incredibly detailed as to lore, etc. I made a persistent world without any haks, custom content or scripts which remained in the Roleplay section for years (seven, actually) and had over 12,000 die-hard FR players, all lore fiends, and kept many happy for years.
Whether we get enough options with the Foundry or not to entertain, remains to be seen. It hasn't been talked about enough to say one way or the other.
I agree with everything you said accept for the d20 ruleset not working in an action oriented environment. Not saying that DDO is perfect in any way but it is damn good, on top of the list of the most successful F2P mmo's (once it went f2p) and is also one of the highest grossing. It uses a dnd ruleset ( not a perfect literal representation mind you but all the good stuff is there) and it is action oriented.
Also you argued with my statement about tor but yet said the same thing with just more words. I didn't say the story was bad. But basing it totally on story is for single player games. The story runs out eventually then people move on to the next. And i completely agree about the foundry. It is probably the only good point it has going for it right now.
However take the foundry out and there will be very little DnD and mostly all Forgotten Realms. Again isn't a bad thing i just feel in my personal opinion that putting DnD in the title of the game is misleading when it will be champions online in a fantasy setting, with a cool (hopefully) foundry.
Oh and i guess i mis interpreted the drow race thing so i apologize.
Pen and paper doesn't translate well for a real-time game. I was an NWN fan in the day, even won awards for building PWs, but yeah, it doesn't work for an entertaining real-time game. It all depends on your cup of tea. I'm a big DnD fan, been playing since the red box, and am dedicated to the ruleset for DnD. However, honestly, it doesn't really work for a real-time action game.
I hope we can keep your interest for more creative work. Looks like without allowing deities and alignment matter that much in any back story to fuel interest, we are left with a path of hollow allegiance without much merit. It will be the creators job to replace things like these with end rewards in the foundry adventures.
https://soundcloud.com/nathankilgore/i-wanna-see-you2
Otter ~~~~ on Beholder
I think the point he was making was that ToR put so much emphasis on storytelling that that's all that people played it for. They zipped through the story campaigns and then went back to playing WoW.
The point is a valid one. Story is nice and the more the merrier, but at the end of the day, what keeps people logging back in is whether or not its just plain fun to play. Yes, even for the people for whom story is just a diversion. Some of the most passionate player bases in WoW are PvP and progression guilds who see it as just a game to be enjoyed.
Thank you, yes that is exactly what i meant which was cleared up in a rebuttal. But you say it much better than i did. Story is awsome and something that mmo's have lost in the RPG world over the years. But at the end of the day, story only lasts for so long and if there is nothing else that is worth staying around, then people will just move on. The foundry is neat but there isn't going to be an explosion of amazing content coming from it. The majority will be just random stuff or setup dungeons in attempt to exploit something. A small portion will probably be amazing. But again, once you have exasperated all that, whats left?
Also as neat as the foundry is, ive seen the demo of it on youtube, and to be honest i don't think its going to be as powerful as most think or hope it will be. It is very functional yes, but the "story" portion is going to be from reading a book which most people aren't going to do.
The main reason wow's story isn't that great is because it doesn't tell a story. You have to dig that story out of it and go out of your way. This will be the same problem here. You will have to read pages of lore with in the foundry made quest to get the story. You cant add voice overs or anything like that so story telling will only be so affective when most ADHD gamers will just click the accept button and move on. I understand there are those that are there for the story, and they will read all the stuff, but that wont be the majority. Its just a fact of the mmo world these days.