I think the point he was making was that ToR put so much emphasis on storytelling that that's all that people played it for. They zipped through the story campaigns and then went back to playing WoW.
The point is a valid one. Story is nice and the more the merrier, but at the end of the day, what keeps people logging back in is whether or not its just plain fun to play. Yes, even for the people for whom story is just a diversion. Some of the most passionate player bases in WoW are PvP and progression guilds who see it as just a game to be enjoyed.
Thank you, yes that is exactly what i meant which was cleared up in a rebuttal. But you say it much better than i did. Story is awsome and something that mmo's have lost in the RPG world over the years. But at the end of the day, story only lasts for so long and if there is nothing else that is worth staying around, then people will just move on. The foundry is neat but there isn't going to be an explosion of amazing content coming from it. The majority will be just random stuff or setup dungeons in attempt to exploit something. A small portion will probably be amazing. But again, once you have exasperated all that, whats left?
Also as neat as the foundry is, ive seen the demo of it on youtube, and to be honest i don't think its going to be as powerful as most think or hope it will be. It is very functional yes, but the "story" portion is going to be from reading a book which most people aren't going to do.
The main reason wow's story isn't that great is because it doesn't tell a story. You have to dig that story out of it and go out of your way. This will be the same problem here. You will have to read pages of lore with in the foundry made quest to get the story. You cant add voice overs or anything like that so story telling will only be so affective when most ADHD gamers will just click the accept button and move on. I understand there are those that are there for the story, and they will read all the stuff, but that wont be the majority. Its just a fact of the mmo world these days.
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iamdoctordeathMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Every MMO that sells story this story that, has failed. I'm not saying story isn't important because it is. But story doesn't make mmo's. Ask SW:ToR.
Wrong- as someone who has played TOR since launch, TOR didn't fail because of story- in fact, story is the one thing that got it universal acclaim- it failed because it ignored customer feedback and consistently made changes that made the game worse and worse- particularly pvp.
Also- EVERY mmo that sells story? What other mmo was big on story exactly? At best- you have a bit of story behind the same old quests, like TSW did, or a story behind each dungeon, like DDO did.
But- DDO didn't fail due to stories either- it has so many issues and is a confusing mess to any new players... or even old players, not to mention a min/max nightmare.
You can't say 'story' is what fails games when that is often the best part about those games and other things caused them to 'fail'- although considering the profits TOR and DDO are turning as f2p, they are both doing very well for what they are.
If you look at games that don't have story- how many of those have failed brutally? Almost every one of them- mmorpgs without attention to story have a far, far worse track record than mmos with a story, so if anything, the opposite of what you just said is true.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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iamdoctordeathMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Who cares about the lore; DMs make up their own campaigns. All anyone knows from Forgotten Realms lore is Drizzt. We want D&D computer game with REAL D&D rules and gameplay.
.
How can you be saying essentially you want the game to be true to D&D in regards to classes, mechanics, numbers, etc... and at the same time saying lore isn't important?
D&D campaigns have always been much, much more about the lore and story than anything else- anyone who knows nothing about the lore probably doesn't know or care for the mechanics either. The lore's the most important part, without it you have just another action mmo.
If someone only knows Drizzt- they won't know the difference between a D&D combat system and anything else, the people who want the combat closer to what's normal for D&D have played it, know the lore and consider that part of it- not to mention anyone who reads the books.
True- DMs often make up their own world, as well as their own house rules- but this game is going to be in Forgotten Realms. While a DM may use their own world- I've yet to see a DM that didn't consider the lore of that world they've made to be a very important part of the campaign.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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lanessar13Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, SilverstarsPosts: 8Arc User
I think the point he was making was that ToR put so much emphasis on storytelling that that's all that people played it for. They zipped through the story campaigns and then went back to playing WoW.
The point is a valid one. Story is nice and the more the merrier, but at the end of the day, what keeps people logging back in is whether or not its just plain fun to play. Yes, even for the people for whom story is just a diversion. Some of the most passionate player bases in WoW are PvP and progression guilds who see it as just a game to be enjoyed.
Not really. They just didn't have the other two legs in. WoW has story, if you care to experience it. PvP is one aspect, but I've seen games (CoH) do really well without it, specifically.
I'm a bit tired, so I won't detail game design here. There are plenty of well-written articles (or video articles) available from Extra Credits and available with a search.
Needless to say, those who think that d20 work in an action environment, I don't know what to say. It doesn't. Even DDO was not responsive to your commands in a real-time environment and was not enjoyable to myself and a number of other NWN players. And if you ever experienced NWN's "round of combat" interaction, you know that this was not a high bar to beat.
DDO has its benefits, but fluidity of interaction isn't one of them. I think it's an excellent game in it's own right, but I don't think that it was successful in the context of LOTRO, SWTOR, and CO (which is failing right now due to lack of support and bug fixes rather than actual game play experience).
Again, that's an old TT player speaking. I can create more immersive combat experiences in TT removing the "round" experience and working from a narrative experience instead. Video games as of this time can't reproduce that properly, and you end up feeling like you're "waiting" for something rather than interacting with it. And I honestly hope it never goes in that direction.
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jaffrojonesMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
6. You might want to look at the 4th edition rules when it comes to immediate reactions and powers. Those ARE essentially blocking. Just because an MMO does it through action on a fighter does not mean it isn't in D&D in other ways. The fighter is more than stand and take hits. There's strategy in the powers shown HOW to be a defender ad draw enemies as well as not take hits. Shift keys and powers being used in the demos show that in the video even if not demonstrated explicitly and clearly to many. I highly recommend watching the video of the fighter and seeing this (even if any of the old video doesn't show what the newer VO announcer video now shows.)
I wanted to thank you for taking the time to answer Jimhon's hateful drivel. I am 36, I have been playing D&D since I was 9, and watched my family play it for 2 years prior to that before they thought I was old enough to take part, so I know a thing or two about D&D. I just wanted to chime in on this one part of his whole diatribe. Blocking is and always has been a part of D&D. When it was called THAC0, which means To Hit AC 0 for the people that don't know, your armor class took into account all the parts of battle. Moving, swinging your weapon, glancing blows, dodging, armor, and many other factors, including blocking. When you rolled to see if you hit, it wasn't ever suppose to just be a number, and then hit or miss. It was given those rules so the system worked, but it was always up to the DM to add substance to the rolls. So for example, if you needed to roll a 15 on a D20 to hit, and you rolled a 14, the DM could say something like, "You swing your sword with great expertise, your blow tracking the vein in the goblin's neck to land a deathblow, but at the last second, it raised it's shield and deflected the blow."
So long story short (to late), blocking has always been in D&D, and they are translating it to an action MMO so it works.
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b00mstickMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Wrong- as someone who has played TOR since launch, TOR didn't fail because of story- in fact, story is the one thing that got it universal acclaim- it failed because it ignored customer feedback and consistently made changes that made the game worse and worse- particularly pvp.
Also- EVERY mmo that sells story? What other mmo was big on story exactly? At best- you have a bit of story behind the same old quests, like TSW did, or a story behind each dungeon, like DDO did.
But- DDO didn't fail due to stories either- it has so many issues and is a confusing mess to any new players... or even old players, not to mention a min/max nightmare.
You can't say 'story' is what fails games when that is often the best part about those games and other things caused them to 'fail'- although considering the profits TOR and DDO are turning as f2p, they are both doing very well for what they are.
If you look at games that don't have story- how many of those have failed brutally? Almost every one of them- mmorpgs without attention to story have a far, far worse track record than mmos with a story, so if anything, the opposite of what you just said is true.
Again you fail to comprehend what i said just to make an argument. I never said the story was bad in fact it was quite decent. Also never said that story isn't important, in fact i said it actually was if you read my post. So thank you for agreeing with me that ToR failed not because of its story but because it based it's existence solely on its story.
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aavariusMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
I'm pretty certain the discussions, videos, interviews, and so forth that have already been made about Neverwinter make the original post a steaming pile of unreasonable expectations.
How can you be saying essentially you want the game to be true to D&D in regards to classes, mechanics, numbers, etc... and at the same time saying lore isn't important?
Lore is important. But don't forget my Monopoly analogy.
The only DND feeling in the Neverwinter videos is directly related to lore and its the world map saying well known names like Neverwinter and Baldurs Gate. But it's supposed to be a Neverwinter game and a 4th edition game and not a spin-off Forgotten Realms non-DND game like Monopoly. When they're so far from the core rules telling them to forget about the lore isn't going to make them remove familiar places and monster lore, is it? It's just supposed tip the scales of priority back towards the games foundation.
Lore beyond just names and monsters, events people read in novels or the storyline of previous DND games,etc, are not required. Those are their own adventures. In this new game there will be new stories taking place in these famous name towns.
I've always played DND for the tactical battles and never had much interest for reading Tavern Tales or Adventuerers Journal entries. I've won Deathknights of Krynn probably 10 times and still only have a vague idea what was going on.
From memory, Sir karl was a solomanic knight turned into a deathknight by soth. His woman was a silver dragon in human form called Maya. They tragicly reunite at the high clerists tower after you hook up with Sir Durfey who'll eventually be turned into a deathknight too and make me cry. Theres a gnome gauntlet in the hills and daves challenge hidden in the corner after you win the final battle. You kill soth after you get some rod of omniscience.
So, i really don't know a lot there but its still one of my all time favourite games. I'd love to run into Durfey, for example, but if im playing poker with a deck of Dragonlance themed cards its not really DND no matter how much lore they draw on the cards.
edit: @jefrojones
Roleplaying that AC incorporates blocking is totally different to active blocking and not even in line with what your quote was saying. Besides, there is no AC now.
When you took your turn in a Deathknights battle you could end your turn with Guard and that would simply counter attack. In Temple of Elemental Evil you could "ready vs attack" or "ready vs spell" but a skill/ability for actively blocking with your shield didn't exist.
The closest thing in 4E to active blocking would be that fighter move I forget the name of, which doesn't require a shield, that makes you ignore xdamage+con mod for a bit. I think it might even have been a daily. The others moves add stuff like +2 AC, which might work for roleplaying for you, but since there's no AC....
Also, hateful is incorrect. Think of me like a concerned parent telling off their kids for doing drugs. Maybe I'm being uncool and sound like a jerk but its coming from a place of love.
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vagrantzeroMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, Neverwinter Guardian Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 0Arc User
WHo cares about Lore? about 10% of the player base. Turbine Devs are always complaining that no one reads the "Storyline" beind the quests.
That's a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>-poor example considering Turbine's far more successful MMO (that'd be Lord of the Rings) is steeped heavily in Lore and Story, and is frankly one of its major selling points. Seriously, it's like you wanted to make a point then thought better of it and decided to destroy the point in one fell sentence.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
Oh and they ruined LOTRO with begging for premium coin buying at every dang minute. Long time users left.
geddings12Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
You got to understand that in order to bring the game to more people they had to change a few things. It will not be EXACTLY as pen and paper DnD is. Personally i find these "issues" only a problem for the very hardcore DnD player. I like to think Neverwinter is not an exact point per point translation of the pen and paper game to the PC but instead uses the rules as a guide and such.
(also the fact that the action is not really turn based as the pen and paper game is anyways) I dont see a problem with it really.
I think the game will do just fine honestly.
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aavariusMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, SilverstarsPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
I think some people need to understand that, as much as I and my fellow D&D nerds would like it to be the other way around, this game MUST satisfy the needs of being an MMO before it satisfies being a Dungeons and Dragons game. It's a themepark MMO (I don't like that term but I don't have an alternative either) and the theme has to come second if it's going to have a snowball's chance of being profitable. And let's be honest, profit is what it comes down to. That doesn't make anybody at Cryptic or PWE greedy. It just means that this project has to withstand the realities of being a functioning MMO (and whatever changes being that means).
The alternative is no Neverwinter game at all. In the end I think it's a small price to pay make this game a reality.
I think some people need to understand that, as much as I and my fellow D&D nerds would like it to be the other way around, this game MUST satisfy the needs of being an MMO before it satisfies being a Dungeons and Dragons game. It's a themepark MMO (I don't like that term but I don't have an alternative either) and the theme has to come second if it's going to have a snowball's chance of being profitable. And let's be honest, profit is what it comes down to. That doesn't make anybody at Cryptic or PWE greedy. It just means that this project has to withstand the realities of being a functioning MMO (and whatever changes being that means).
The alternative is no Neverwinter game at all. In the end I think it's a small price to pay make this game a reality.
I think you made my point better than I did. When I was talking about Thac0 from back in the day, and it taking blocking into consideration as a whole, verses active blocking in this game, I think what I was trying to say is that this game is an interpretation of the Pen and Paper D&D. It can't and shouldn't be an exact replica.
I know people that won't play 4th edition because it is so far removed from 1st or even 2nd edition. This is a game that has been around since 1974. It has grown, changed, changed again, changed again... If you choose not to play something just because it is not how you remember it to be, then all you are doing is denying yourself the chance to find something you might end up loving. 4th isn't what 1st was, this isn't what 4th is, and 4.5, which I and many other people are currently testing, isn't what 4th is now. It's not suppose to remain the same, it grows and changes with the time.
You got to understand that in order to bring the game to more people they had to change a few things. It will not be EXACTLY as pen and paper DnD is. Personally i find these "issues" only a problem for the very hardcore DnD player. I like to think Neverwinter is not an exact point per point translation of the pen and paper game to the PC but instead uses the rules as a guide and such.
(also the fact that the action is not really turn based as the pen and paper game is anyways) I dont see a problem with it really.
I think the game will do just fine honestly.
I look at at it like this:
In order to translate a different medium or genre into an MMO, you have to deviate from some elements and systems that just dont work in a persistent environment. Case in point: World of Warcraft is nothing like Warcraft 3 but it does play true to the spirt of the game. This is what I look for in an MMO that usses a well known IP from another medium.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Character is what a man is in the dark
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legiosmortisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 13Arc User
edited January 2013
1: Meh, doesn't bother me. The game clearly isn't trying to be the boardgame.
2: Also doesn't bother me. Neverwinter isn't using the DnD ruleset, just the setting. 60 at least doesn't sound too grindy.
3: There are two kinds of system in the post-TERA world. "Highly mechanical number crunching systems vs. Most attacks have to be aimed and can be dodged". As soon as Neverwinter was confirmed for the latter category, you should have stopped expecting a DnD ruleset MMO.
4: It will probably be bad for high pings in all the same ways that TERA is bad for people with high pings, but the time for NOT taking advantage of advances in the average user's broadband capabilities has passed. It passed with Aion and it certainly passed with TOR. I never want to see the highly mechanical number cruncher again, personally. No matter what that means for the aussies.
5: I appreciate areas that are crapping rainbows, provided that they offset much darker, moodier areas. An MMO should have both. The difference between needing a break from the zone and needing a break from the game is where else you are able to go.
6: No it isn't, and nor does it want to be. And nor should it want to be. See answers 3 and 4.
7: I agree. A warrior should be a warrior. Let me decide whether I want him to be an X or Y warrior.
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jaffrojonesMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 0Arc User
7: I agree. A warrior should be a warrior. Let me decide whether I want him to be an X or Y warrior.
I think this is the only thing that bothers me about the game so far... I know I know, none of us have played it yet, so maybe it won't. I would like to pick my skills and have that determine what kind of class I am. I think 99% of us are in agreement with this, but I just want the damn game, so I will deal. This is going to be great!
Originally Posted by jimhon
....
The 7 deadly signs Neverwinter might suck.
1. Huge damage numbers.
I hate big numbers. Even if they can be turned off. Action environment is too fast for massive calculating.
2. Level cap 60
If you made it 30 the player base would fall off too fast and besides they would beg like dogs for it to be implemented as soon as it launched. I believe the begging to lift the cap off of 60 is close......:o
3. Reworked skills not actually D&D rules any more.
The adjustment for balance in this setting has to be fair between classes, races and in the action mode. If you change it for one detail it would still be changed. D&D was made up to represent a fantastic method of operating within a system. Same need to do that here. Even in 3.5 the deluge of complaint about unbalanced warlocks in nwn2 was ad nauseum X infinity.
4. Action combat but no talk about why this won't be bad for high pings.
I think high pings know in advance their life will be miserable and will purchase it anyway.
5. Not Dark enough.
It looks like detail and that needs to be seen. Foundry settings can adjust this I assume?
6. Active Blocking is not in D&D.
No AC... something has to keep you alive to finish the game....
7. Classes seem like templates.
They promise more classes and customization so there is hope.
castagyreMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 4Arc User
edited January 2013
As someone else who has been playing pretty much every D&D game I could get my hands on since '81 (EXCEPT 4th ed >.>) I really only have one comment on the OP.
Making up their own campaign and dismissing the old favorites, while understandable from a business standpoint for WotC, is one of the things that shot DDO in the foot. I know several people I used to table top with and play online with who refused to play it for that very reason. A few of them frequented conventions just to get items signed by Greenwood. Never underestimate the passions of fanboys and what they obsess over. The setting is important.
Remembering Hanlon's Razor can save one a lot on aspirines.
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legiosmortisMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Hero UsersPosts: 13Arc User
I think this is the only thing that bothers me about the game so far... I know I know, none of us have played it yet, so maybe it won't. I would like to pick my skills and have that determine what kind of class I am. I think 99% of us are in agreement with this, but I just want the damn game, so I will deal. This is going to be great!
The more I think about it, the more I realise that I said something idiotic.
Once I've found my favourite class, and a way of fighting that I love within that class, how often do I change? The answer is never. When I want to do something else, I roll another class entirely. There's nothing to stop me doing that in Neverwinter, so my objection to fixed-style classes-within-classes is just not valid. Not when my behaviour in other MMOs is considered. So I take it back!
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jim1771Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited January 2013
you forgot the 8th sign! A total lack of beta testing. Two months til launch and Cryptic is still unsure of where they stand with the game. Will this be failure number three for Cryptic?
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
you forgot the 8th sign! A total lack of beta testing. Two months til launch and Cryptic is still unsure of where they stand with the game. Will this be failure number three for Cryptic?
Total lack of Beta Testing? They just released the schedule for the beginning of the Beta Testing. Besides, the game's been in development for years....
Failure number three? Uhm... *looks* Yep, Champions Online and Star Trek Online are STILL going strong! What are these other two failures doth speeketh of?
I think you made my point better than I did. When I was talking about Thac0 from back in the day, and it taking blocking into consideration as a whole, verses active blocking in this game, I think what I was trying to say is that this game is an interpretation of the Pen and Paper D&D. It can't and shouldn't be an exact replica.
I know people that won't play 4th edition because it is so far removed from 1st or even 2nd edition. This is a game that has been around since 1974. It has grown, changed, changed again, changed again... If you choose not to play something just because it is not how you remember it to be, then all you are doing is denying yourself the chance to find something you might end up loving. 4th isn't what 1st was, this isn't what 4th is, and 4.5, which I and many other people are currently testing, isn't what 4th is now. It's not suppose to remain the same, it grows and changes with the time.
I look at at it like this: In order to translate a different medium or genre into an MMO, you have to deviate from some elements and systems that just dont work in a persistent environment. Case in point: World of Warcraft is nothing like Warcraft 3 but it does play true to the spirt of the game. This is what I look for in an MMO that usses a well known IP from another medium.
We have two winners in this thread. Thank you for stating this so well!
5: I appreciate areas that are crapping rainbows, provided that they offset much darker, moodier areas. An MMO should have both. The difference between needing a break from the zone and needing a break from the game is where else you are able to go.
I'm likely going to get in big trouble for disclosing this but here I go:
There are absolutely no places in the game that poo rainbows.
Total lack of Beta Testing? They just released the schedule for the beginning of the Beta Testing. Besides, the game's been in development for years....
Yes however the real bugs and glitches are found in Beta. This game should have been in Beta mode six months prior to launch. This close to the launch date will mean a very bugy launch because the team will not have the time to fix any bugs and glitches found during the limited beta.
BTW I am an experianced tester and have tested both STO and Chapions for Cryptic as Starbuck1771 so I know how Cryptic does things. They leave out key content , and rush to launch the game on time. Thats where they are headed again. I said the same thing dureing the STO Beta and look where we are now. Atari wasn't going to keep a failed game.
[EDIT] To prove my point look at how few classes there are they don't even have a ranger class yet and thats a starting class.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
...
Failure number three? Uhm... *looks* Yep, Champions Online and Star Trek Online are STILL going strong! What are these other two failures doth speeketh of?
Three successes actually - CoX was also cryptic's till they left it. It was profit making till they were there from its inception to when they left.
Even after they left, it was making profits for some time - but the game engine being too old was tough to maintain (or something)
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
Atari went bankrupt, they couldn't keep anything. Yet Cryptic is still here and was bought by PWE. The games remain and continue to make money, so I hardly count them as failures. If they were failures, why would PWE buy them and continue to have Cryptic maintain them?
Atari went bankrupt, they couldn't keep anything. Yet Cryptic is still here and was bought by PWE. The games remain and continue to make money, so I hardly count them as failures. If they were failures, why would PWE buy them and continue to have Cryptic maintain them?
One thing more- cryptic was making profit when Atari sold it. Atari was looking into covering their losses from other places using cryptic that is the reason (and thanks to Selune!) for it.
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jim1771Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Atari went bankrupt, they couldn't keep anything. Yet Cryptic is still here and was bought by PWE. The games remain and continue to make money, so I hardly count them as failures.
Well Cryptic admited their mistakes with Champions and Jack even went and admited STO was <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
Well Cryptic admited their mistakes with Champions and Jack even went and admited STO was <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
Opinions do not equate fact. Besides, I'l love to see these quotes you're referring to, for I have never seen such - at least not to the point of "failure" and "<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" that you purvey.
Opinions do not equate fact. Besides, I'l love to see these quotes you're referring to, for I have never seen such - at least not to the point of "failure" and "<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>" that you purvey.
Comments
Thank you, yes that is exactly what i meant which was cleared up in a rebuttal. But you say it much better than i did. Story is awsome and something that mmo's have lost in the RPG world over the years. But at the end of the day, story only lasts for so long and if there is nothing else that is worth staying around, then people will just move on. The foundry is neat but there isn't going to be an explosion of amazing content coming from it. The majority will be just random stuff or setup dungeons in attempt to exploit something. A small portion will probably be amazing. But again, once you have exasperated all that, whats left?
Also as neat as the foundry is, ive seen the demo of it on youtube, and to be honest i don't think its going to be as powerful as most think or hope it will be. It is very functional yes, but the "story" portion is going to be from reading a book which most people aren't going to do.
The main reason wow's story isn't that great is because it doesn't tell a story. You have to dig that story out of it and go out of your way. This will be the same problem here. You will have to read pages of lore with in the foundry made quest to get the story. You cant add voice overs or anything like that so story telling will only be so affective when most ADHD gamers will just click the accept button and move on. I understand there are those that are there for the story, and they will read all the stuff, but that wont be the majority. Its just a fact of the mmo world these days.
Wrong- as someone who has played TOR since launch, TOR didn't fail because of story- in fact, story is the one thing that got it universal acclaim- it failed because it ignored customer feedback and consistently made changes that made the game worse and worse- particularly pvp.
Also- EVERY mmo that sells story? What other mmo was big on story exactly? At best- you have a bit of story behind the same old quests, like TSW did, or a story behind each dungeon, like DDO did.
But- DDO didn't fail due to stories either- it has so many issues and is a confusing mess to any new players... or even old players, not to mention a min/max nightmare.
You can't say 'story' is what fails games when that is often the best part about those games and other things caused them to 'fail'- although considering the profits TOR and DDO are turning as f2p, they are both doing very well for what they are.
If you look at games that don't have story- how many of those have failed brutally? Almost every one of them- mmorpgs without attention to story have a far, far worse track record than mmos with a story, so if anything, the opposite of what you just said is true.
How can you be saying essentially you want the game to be true to D&D in regards to classes, mechanics, numbers, etc... and at the same time saying lore isn't important?
D&D campaigns have always been much, much more about the lore and story than anything else- anyone who knows nothing about the lore probably doesn't know or care for the mechanics either. The lore's the most important part, without it you have just another action mmo.
If someone only knows Drizzt- they won't know the difference between a D&D combat system and anything else, the people who want the combat closer to what's normal for D&D have played it, know the lore and consider that part of it- not to mention anyone who reads the books.
True- DMs often make up their own world, as well as their own house rules- but this game is going to be in Forgotten Realms. While a DM may use their own world- I've yet to see a DM that didn't consider the lore of that world they've made to be a very important part of the campaign.
Not really. They just didn't have the other two legs in. WoW has story, if you care to experience it. PvP is one aspect, but I've seen games (CoH) do really well without it, specifically.
I'm a bit tired, so I won't detail game design here. There are plenty of well-written articles (or video articles) available from Extra Credits and available with a search.
Needless to say, those who think that d20 work in an action environment, I don't know what to say. It doesn't. Even DDO was not responsive to your commands in a real-time environment and was not enjoyable to myself and a number of other NWN players. And if you ever experienced NWN's "round of combat" interaction, you know that this was not a high bar to beat.
DDO has its benefits, but fluidity of interaction isn't one of them. I think it's an excellent game in it's own right, but I don't think that it was successful in the context of LOTRO, SWTOR, and CO (which is failing right now due to lack of support and bug fixes rather than actual game play experience).
Again, that's an old TT player speaking. I can create more immersive combat experiences in TT removing the "round" experience and working from a narrative experience instead. Video games as of this time can't reproduce that properly, and you end up feeling like you're "waiting" for something rather than interacting with it. And I honestly hope it never goes in that direction.
I wanted to thank you for taking the time to answer Jimhon's hateful drivel. I am 36, I have been playing D&D since I was 9, and watched my family play it for 2 years prior to that before they thought I was old enough to take part, so I know a thing or two about D&D. I just wanted to chime in on this one part of his whole diatribe. Blocking is and always has been a part of D&D. When it was called THAC0, which means To Hit AC 0 for the people that don't know, your armor class took into account all the parts of battle. Moving, swinging your weapon, glancing blows, dodging, armor, and many other factors, including blocking. When you rolled to see if you hit, it wasn't ever suppose to just be a number, and then hit or miss. It was given those rules so the system worked, but it was always up to the DM to add substance to the rolls. So for example, if you needed to roll a 15 on a D20 to hit, and you rolled a 14, the DM could say something like, "You swing your sword with great expertise, your blow tracking the vein in the goblin's neck to land a deathblow, but at the last second, it raised it's shield and deflected the blow."
So long story short (to late), blocking has always been in D&D, and they are translating it to an action MMO so it works.
Again you fail to comprehend what i said just to make an argument. I never said the story was bad in fact it was quite decent. Also never said that story isn't important, in fact i said it actually was if you read my post. So thank you for agreeing with me that ToR failed not because of its story but because it based it's existence solely on its story.
Lore is important. But don't forget my Monopoly analogy.
The only DND feeling in the Neverwinter videos is directly related to lore and its the world map saying well known names like Neverwinter and Baldurs Gate. But it's supposed to be a Neverwinter game and a 4th edition game and not a spin-off Forgotten Realms non-DND game like Monopoly. When they're so far from the core rules telling them to forget about the lore isn't going to make them remove familiar places and monster lore, is it? It's just supposed tip the scales of priority back towards the games foundation.
Lore beyond just names and monsters, events people read in novels or the storyline of previous DND games,etc, are not required. Those are their own adventures. In this new game there will be new stories taking place in these famous name towns.
I've always played DND for the tactical battles and never had much interest for reading Tavern Tales or Adventuerers Journal entries. I've won Deathknights of Krynn probably 10 times and still only have a vague idea what was going on.
From memory, Sir karl was a solomanic knight turned into a deathknight by soth. His woman was a silver dragon in human form called Maya. They tragicly reunite at the high clerists tower after you hook up with Sir Durfey who'll eventually be turned into a deathknight too and make me cry. Theres a gnome gauntlet in the hills and daves challenge hidden in the corner after you win the final battle. You kill soth after you get some rod of omniscience.
So, i really don't know a lot there but its still one of my all time favourite games. I'd love to run into Durfey, for example, but if im playing poker with a deck of Dragonlance themed cards its not really DND no matter how much lore they draw on the cards.
edit: @jefrojones
Roleplaying that AC incorporates blocking is totally different to active blocking and not even in line with what your quote was saying. Besides, there is no AC now.
When you took your turn in a Deathknights battle you could end your turn with Guard and that would simply counter attack. In Temple of Elemental Evil you could "ready vs attack" or "ready vs spell" but a skill/ability for actively blocking with your shield didn't exist.
The closest thing in 4E to active blocking would be that fighter move I forget the name of, which doesn't require a shield, that makes you ignore xdamage+con mod for a bit. I think it might even have been a daily. The others moves add stuff like +2 AC, which might work for roleplaying for you, but since there's no AC....
Also, hateful is incorrect. Think of me like a concerned parent telling off their kids for doing drugs. Maybe I'm being uncool and sound like a jerk but its coming from a place of love.
That's a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>-poor example considering Turbine's far more successful MMO (that'd be Lord of the Rings) is steeped heavily in Lore and Story, and is frankly one of its major selling points. Seriously, it's like you wanted to make a point then thought better of it and decided to destroy the point in one fell sentence.
(also the fact that the action is not really turn based as the pen and paper game is anyways) I dont see a problem with it really.
I think the game will do just fine honestly.
The alternative is no Neverwinter game at all. In the end I think it's a small price to pay make this game a reality.
I think you made my point better than I did. When I was talking about Thac0 from back in the day, and it taking blocking into consideration as a whole, verses active blocking in this game, I think what I was trying to say is that this game is an interpretation of the Pen and Paper D&D. It can't and shouldn't be an exact replica.
I know people that won't play 4th edition because it is so far removed from 1st or even 2nd edition. This is a game that has been around since 1974. It has grown, changed, changed again, changed again... If you choose not to play something just because it is not how you remember it to be, then all you are doing is denying yourself the chance to find something you might end up loving. 4th isn't what 1st was, this isn't what 4th is, and 4.5, which I and many other people are currently testing, isn't what 4th is now. It's not suppose to remain the same, it grows and changes with the time.
I look at at it like this:
In order to translate a different medium or genre into an MMO, you have to deviate from some elements and systems that just dont work in a persistent environment. Case in point: World of Warcraft is nothing like Warcraft 3 but it does play true to the spirt of the game. This is what I look for in an MMO that usses a well known IP from another medium.
Character is what a man is in the dark
2: Also doesn't bother me. Neverwinter isn't using the DnD ruleset, just the setting. 60 at least doesn't sound too grindy.
3: There are two kinds of system in the post-TERA world. "Highly mechanical number crunching systems vs. Most attacks have to be aimed and can be dodged". As soon as Neverwinter was confirmed for the latter category, you should have stopped expecting a DnD ruleset MMO.
4: It will probably be bad for high pings in all the same ways that TERA is bad for people with high pings, but the time for NOT taking advantage of advances in the average user's broadband capabilities has passed. It passed with Aion and it certainly passed with TOR. I never want to see the highly mechanical number cruncher again, personally. No matter what that means for the aussies.
5: I appreciate areas that are crapping rainbows, provided that they offset much darker, moodier areas. An MMO should have both. The difference between needing a break from the zone and needing a break from the game is where else you are able to go.
6: No it isn't, and nor does it want to be. And nor should it want to be. See answers 3 and 4.
7: I agree. A warrior should be a warrior. Let me decide whether I want him to be an X or Y warrior.
I think this is the only thing that bothers me about the game so far... I know I know, none of us have played it yet, so maybe it won't. I would like to pick my skills and have that determine what kind of class I am. I think 99% of us are in agreement with this, but I just want the damn game, so I will deal. This is going to be great!
....
The 7 deadly signs Neverwinter might suck.
1. Huge damage numbers.
I hate big numbers. Even if they can be turned off. Action environment is too fast for massive calculating.
2. Level cap 60
If you made it 30 the player base would fall off too fast and besides they would beg like dogs for it to be implemented as soon as it launched. I believe the begging to lift the cap off of 60 is close......:o
3. Reworked skills not actually D&D rules any more.
The adjustment for balance in this setting has to be fair between classes, races and in the action mode. If you change it for one detail it would still be changed. D&D was made up to represent a fantastic method of operating within a system. Same need to do that here. Even in 3.5 the deluge of complaint about unbalanced warlocks in nwn2 was ad nauseum X infinity.
4. Action combat but no talk about why this won't be bad for high pings.
I think high pings know in advance their life will be miserable and will purchase it anyway.
5. Not Dark enough.
It looks like detail and that needs to be seen. Foundry settings can adjust this I assume?
6. Active Blocking is not in D&D.
No AC... something has to keep you alive to finish the game....
7. Classes seem like templates.
They promise more classes and customization so there is hope.
https://soundcloud.com/nathankilgore/i-wanna-see-you2
Otter ~~~~ on Beholder
Making up their own campaign and dismissing the old favorites, while understandable from a business standpoint for WotC, is one of the things that shot DDO in the foot. I know several people I used to table top with and play online with who refused to play it for that very reason. A few of them frequented conventions just to get items signed by Greenwood. Never underestimate the passions of fanboys and what they obsess over. The setting is important.
The more I think about it, the more I realise that I said something idiotic.
Once I've found my favourite class, and a way of fighting that I love within that class, how often do I change? The answer is never. When I want to do something else, I roll another class entirely. There's nothing to stop me doing that in Neverwinter, so my objection to fixed-style classes-within-classes is just not valid. Not when my behaviour in other MMOs is considered. So I take it back!
Failure number three? Uhm... *looks* Yep, Champions Online and Star Trek Online are STILL going strong! What are these other two failures doth speeketh of?
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We have two winners in this thread. Thank you for stating this so well!
I'm likely going to get in big trouble for disclosing this but here I go:
There are absolutely no places in the game that poo rainbows.
I'm ready for my punishment now Pin
Yes however the real bugs and glitches are found in Beta. This game should have been in Beta mode six months prior to launch. This close to the launch date will mean a very bugy launch because the team will not have the time to fix any bugs and glitches found during the limited beta.
BTW I am an experianced tester and have tested both STO and Chapions for Cryptic as Starbuck1771 so I know how Cryptic does things. They leave out key content , and rush to launch the game on time. Thats where they are headed again. I said the same thing dureing the STO Beta and look where we are now. Atari wasn't going to keep a failed game.
[EDIT] To prove my point look at how few classes there are they don't even have a ranger class yet and thats a starting class.
I wonder... is this how rainbows are made though? Leprechaun poo?
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
Three successes actually - CoX was also cryptic's till they left it. It was profit making till they were there from its inception to when they left.
Even after they left, it was making profits for some time - but the game engine being too old was tough to maintain (or something)
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
One thing more- cryptic was making profit when Atari sold it. Atari was looking into covering their losses from other places using cryptic that is the reason (and thanks to Selune!) for it.
Well Cryptic admited their mistakes with Champions and Jack even went and admited STO was <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
http://www.zam.com/story.html?story=23115
Even this interveiw shows Jack doesn't know Jack: http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/interviews/56890/Neverwinter-Interview-with-Jack-Emmert
Q4 2011 release? Ranger class at launch?