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The 7 deadly signs Neverwinter will disappoint...
jimhon
Member, Neverwinter Beta Users, Silverstars Posts: 50
I have a long history with Dungeons and Dragons computer games.
At 11 years old I took a party from Champions of Krynn through to Dark Queen of Krynn on my old Amiga 500. I even played the crappy ones like Heroes of the Lance! Of course, I played pools, curse, secrets in the Forgotten Realms too.
Then after the Dark Sun games D&D seemed to die until Baldurs Gate and Infinity Engine games; which I played over and over. Even played the new BG:EE with a solo Half-Orc Berzerker.
Initially I didn't think much of Neverwinter Nights from Bioware (I never played the one from AOL, though I did play an obscure fan-remake project which, while I forget the name, should still exist online today.) It was only playing multiplayer in community developed projects that NWN shone its brightest. Neverwinter 2 failed to repeat the greatness from NWN and got less play than Shadows over Mystara coin-op!
Then we enter the "present". 4E days. My first 4E experience was Daggerdale. It was grim. Very, very grim.... After a detour through "Baldurs Gate: Dark Alliance" Diablo clone on console and DDO, with the rubbish free2play model, I was about ready to accept D&D games were dead forever.
UNTIL NOW!
So without further ado...
TL;DR
The 7 deadly signs Neverwinter might suck.
1. Huge damage numbers.
I can't even work out how these are possible in 4E. 4000 damage? C'mon, If you want to compete with Mists of Panda you need 100,000 damage crits at least. Why not have damage like a Dungeons and Dragons game instead of ego inflating ********?
2. Level cap 60
4E level cap is 30. What kinda artificial filler will extend this? Is this just to extend the time it takes to do things or to force you to repeat everything? I'd have much preferred Diablo3 let you level 1-60 with 1-60 of content, not forcing you to win the game 3 times before you're essentially level 1 and can set the monster difficulty like you thought you were doing at the start. MMORPG slowness is best left to subscription cash cows, anyway. Or are you trying to sell +100% xp buffs in the item mall for people who want normal speed leveling? That's understandable. I get it. Gotta feed the monkey, so to speak. STO business model was quite good so I'm not worried about that aspect. I just don't want...
3. Reworked skills not actually D&D rules any more.
Well, this is kind of an overarching one, but the point is legitimate. Are you making a D&D game or not?? Who cares about the lore; DMs make up their own campaigns. All anyone knows from Forgotten Realms lore is Drizzt. We want D&D computer game with REAL D&D rules and gameplay. If we wanted to play WoW we would be. You release a wow clone and people will go straight back to wow.
4. Action combat but no talk about why this won't be bad for high pings.
In every interview when asked whats good about the game the devs say "oh, the action combat!". In gamer terms that's called Twitch gameplay. Are you aware of latency issues? What are you doing to address these issues for Australians and other foreign players? Some kinda clever netcode like Sony claimed for Planetside 2? Fact is lag makes competitive play unfair and makes melee combat feel awful. Active blocking might become frustrating very quickly. When you lag you stand still and the enemy runs though you then teleports back a bit before striking from where they would have stopped without lag. Will there be Australian servers? Just steal Blacklight:Redemptions ones. Talk to PW about it?
5. Not Dark enough.
I'm a huge fan of Dark Souls. When a PnP DungeonMaster describes the spooky dungeon you're entering its not full of bloody rainbow colours, pink smoke, perfectly well lit into the distance. It's dark. You might light a torch. Dark Souls and Doom 3 use the darkness well to enhance the graphics and atmosphere in a mature way that I feel represents oldschool DND campaigns desired emotional state better than rainbows and unicorns. Even exploring a cave in real life, without any goblins, is scary and claustrophobic. I understand that it's believed girls are attracted to bright colours and you get the guys at the party by having girls there, but there's limits to how far you can push this and I feel like you're about borderline too colourful already. Dark Souls didn't need cheesy coloured sparks for effect it had clanging steel echoing down the corridors and maybe a small spark as the blade scrapes along a wall. Good games give you an adrenaline rush; a physiological effect. WoW never managed this accept in moments of rage from being griefed. Dark Souls excelled at it. Heroes of Newerth and DOTA2 too.
6. Active Blocking is not in D&D.
Shields give AC. Check the rulebook. However, active blocking is almost the essence of Dark Souls combat and I feel it could actually add to Neverwinter if implemented properly and as it is in Dark Souls. Unfortunately, how I picture blocking in group play is "OMFG GUARDIAN JUST STAND AND BLOCK THAT'S YOUR JOB. STOP TRYING TO ATTACK THAT'S THE DPS JOB" while the poor Battle Cleric is forced to stand still spamming heals on you. Consider this very carefully as its not too late to remove active blocking and its unlikely anyone will complain.
7. Classes seem like templates.
I want my plain Fighter to be a guardian fighter because of the moves I pick; not the class. I'm the kinda guy who WILL spend 3 hours rerolling my guy and if all there is in character creation is a bunch of templates like in diablo It'll ruin half the fun. While I didn't enjoy NWN2 at all I did have a blast making hybrid classes up with their huge selection. We want control and depth. LET US ROLL GIMPED CHARACTERS. Making it more instantly accessible will only LOWER the satisfaction players get from learning then doing it right and knowing their hero is actually most likely above average for the class because of their input. That personalization forms a much stronger bond to your character. It's not preference like face or hair. You're actually superior and that's fun.
Well, that about wraps it up. Cryptic, please pretend I work for a leading games mag or something and have these questions addressed in interview style? I've watched EVERY bit of promotional material, every interview and these questions have all gone unanswered. Most interviews sucked, but I did learn to send a woman if you want 16 mins and not 5.
Having users generate content is about the only way a new game can compete with 8 years of wow expansion packs so the potential is there to actually be the best game ever and one we don't burn through in a week. Please don't mess up this game by following the "market trends" and emulating some other game that we're already bored of!
I hope I can have a long future with Dungeons and Dragons computer games too.
At 11 years old I took a party from Champions of Krynn through to Dark Queen of Krynn on my old Amiga 500. I even played the crappy ones like Heroes of the Lance! Of course, I played pools, curse, secrets in the Forgotten Realms too.
Then after the Dark Sun games D&D seemed to die until Baldurs Gate and Infinity Engine games; which I played over and over. Even played the new BG:EE with a solo Half-Orc Berzerker.
Initially I didn't think much of Neverwinter Nights from Bioware (I never played the one from AOL, though I did play an obscure fan-remake project which, while I forget the name, should still exist online today.) It was only playing multiplayer in community developed projects that NWN shone its brightest. Neverwinter 2 failed to repeat the greatness from NWN and got less play than Shadows over Mystara coin-op!
Then we enter the "present". 4E days. My first 4E experience was Daggerdale. It was grim. Very, very grim.... After a detour through "Baldurs Gate: Dark Alliance" Diablo clone on console and DDO, with the rubbish free2play model, I was about ready to accept D&D games were dead forever.
UNTIL NOW!
So without further ado...
TL;DR
The 7 deadly signs Neverwinter might suck.
1. Huge damage numbers.
I can't even work out how these are possible in 4E. 4000 damage? C'mon, If you want to compete with Mists of Panda you need 100,000 damage crits at least. Why not have damage like a Dungeons and Dragons game instead of ego inflating ********?
2. Level cap 60
4E level cap is 30. What kinda artificial filler will extend this? Is this just to extend the time it takes to do things or to force you to repeat everything? I'd have much preferred Diablo3 let you level 1-60 with 1-60 of content, not forcing you to win the game 3 times before you're essentially level 1 and can set the monster difficulty like you thought you were doing at the start. MMORPG slowness is best left to subscription cash cows, anyway. Or are you trying to sell +100% xp buffs in the item mall for people who want normal speed leveling? That's understandable. I get it. Gotta feed the monkey, so to speak. STO business model was quite good so I'm not worried about that aspect. I just don't want...
3. Reworked skills not actually D&D rules any more.
Well, this is kind of an overarching one, but the point is legitimate. Are you making a D&D game or not?? Who cares about the lore; DMs make up their own campaigns. All anyone knows from Forgotten Realms lore is Drizzt. We want D&D computer game with REAL D&D rules and gameplay. If we wanted to play WoW we would be. You release a wow clone and people will go straight back to wow.
4. Action combat but no talk about why this won't be bad for high pings.
In every interview when asked whats good about the game the devs say "oh, the action combat!". In gamer terms that's called Twitch gameplay. Are you aware of latency issues? What are you doing to address these issues for Australians and other foreign players? Some kinda clever netcode like Sony claimed for Planetside 2? Fact is lag makes competitive play unfair and makes melee combat feel awful. Active blocking might become frustrating very quickly. When you lag you stand still and the enemy runs though you then teleports back a bit before striking from where they would have stopped without lag. Will there be Australian servers? Just steal Blacklight:Redemptions ones. Talk to PW about it?
5. Not Dark enough.
I'm a huge fan of Dark Souls. When a PnP DungeonMaster describes the spooky dungeon you're entering its not full of bloody rainbow colours, pink smoke, perfectly well lit into the distance. It's dark. You might light a torch. Dark Souls and Doom 3 use the darkness well to enhance the graphics and atmosphere in a mature way that I feel represents oldschool DND campaigns desired emotional state better than rainbows and unicorns. Even exploring a cave in real life, without any goblins, is scary and claustrophobic. I understand that it's believed girls are attracted to bright colours and you get the guys at the party by having girls there, but there's limits to how far you can push this and I feel like you're about borderline too colourful already. Dark Souls didn't need cheesy coloured sparks for effect it had clanging steel echoing down the corridors and maybe a small spark as the blade scrapes along a wall. Good games give you an adrenaline rush; a physiological effect. WoW never managed this accept in moments of rage from being griefed. Dark Souls excelled at it. Heroes of Newerth and DOTA2 too.
6. Active Blocking is not in D&D.
Shields give AC. Check the rulebook. However, active blocking is almost the essence of Dark Souls combat and I feel it could actually add to Neverwinter if implemented properly and as it is in Dark Souls. Unfortunately, how I picture blocking in group play is "OMFG GUARDIAN JUST STAND AND BLOCK THAT'S YOUR JOB. STOP TRYING TO ATTACK THAT'S THE DPS JOB" while the poor Battle Cleric is forced to stand still spamming heals on you. Consider this very carefully as its not too late to remove active blocking and its unlikely anyone will complain.
7. Classes seem like templates.
I want my plain Fighter to be a guardian fighter because of the moves I pick; not the class. I'm the kinda guy who WILL spend 3 hours rerolling my guy and if all there is in character creation is a bunch of templates like in diablo It'll ruin half the fun. While I didn't enjoy NWN2 at all I did have a blast making hybrid classes up with their huge selection. We want control and depth. LET US ROLL GIMPED CHARACTERS. Making it more instantly accessible will only LOWER the satisfaction players get from learning then doing it right and knowing their hero is actually most likely above average for the class because of their input. That personalization forms a much stronger bond to your character. It's not preference like face or hair. You're actually superior and that's fun.
Well, that about wraps it up. Cryptic, please pretend I work for a leading games mag or something and have these questions addressed in interview style? I've watched EVERY bit of promotional material, every interview and these questions have all gone unanswered. Most interviews sucked, but I did learn to send a woman if you want 16 mins and not 5.
Having users generate content is about the only way a new game can compete with 8 years of wow expansion packs so the potential is there to actually be the best game ever and one we don't burn through in a week. Please don't mess up this game by following the "market trends" and emulating some other game that we're already bored of!
I hope I can have a long future with Dungeons and Dragons computer games too.
Post edited by jimhon on
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Are you ranting, are you suggesting solutions, are you warning people to stay away, are you showing solutions by the games you've played should be this in D&D from etc? It's not that clear. While your concerns are addressed, your end result isn't.
Honestly, if all you're doing is saying why the game might suck and here's your pedigree, we have a ton of people before you, one of whom even has optimism a bit more than when he started that.
But I'm thinking this is your way of "trying to wake up" those responsible for the game. If I'm wrong, disregard the rest.
If you have specific constructive solutions, I and others look forward to reading them in future replies, but when I can list about it, I'll try clearing up your points:
1. DDO's numbers are ridiculous for D&D because they tried to pretend it was a D&D tabletop game also an MMO. Do I need to go into the mess that became glancing blows because of this?
This game made no such promise. To every gamer who is a D&D tabletop fundamentalist harsh words, but: get over it.
This is a D&D themed MMO game. If you're looking for a faithful recreation of D&D in a computer game, even NWN cannot succeed. It just is not doable on a multi-player level of this magnitude to do so with the rules meant for a group ONLY EVER of 4-6 except under rare circumstances
After 34+ years of doing this plus playing most if not every computer game related to D&D both individual and multi-player, I know my history.
And Daggerdale has nothing to do with this game or how 4e should work but everything showing why I am grateful PWE and not the...other publisher is involved/not involved anymore.
2. The heroic and paragon tiers or levels 1-20 are extended to a 3-1 ratio. Or levels 1-20 are now in game 1-60 and I can't comment further on how this works publicly.
I don't know how to say you are missing all the facts without breaching some things under secrecy, so I have to leave a lot of things currently unsaid. I will address a few things that are blatantly wrong or overlooked in a historical context. Such as the game simply would not work with a 30 level progression what one does on a tabletop session once a week in an MMO format. But I will say the developers tried to do 20-30 levels in the beginning extensively at first when they made the framework. Same with healing surges not being in an MMO game. Again. See 1.
And epic tier will not be released at launch does no mean not released or done like DDO did in their own...unique way contrary to the D&D mythos.
And Wow started with a 60 level setup if I remember correctly. (Then again, I avoided the game because I was told it was grindless then told it grinds you at later levels after all so I made a choice to "dodge that MMO bullet" since I played the rest of the MMOS for many years before this release and had to deal with grind, and could be very wrong on this.)
But I can publicly say it's not for an XP boost. I'm sorry I can't yet further publicly comment on this though.
3. See 1. WOTC will make sure the story references and creatures and feel of combat don't deviate from D&D cannon, but this will be done rules-wise from a MMO game. And if you are going all D&D purist, you fail to mention if the term skills means the tabletop skills like arcana, religion, etc or the MMO term for attacks, which you then fail to use the correct terminology of POWERS if so in 4E D&D. I will say D&D tabletop skills will be represented in an MMO format but that's all I can say.
4. This can't specifically be addressed until extended testing is done, but this isn't their first dance and such contingencies are addressed with a similar action level of response with their other active STO/CO games and how they addressed it on COH/COX before transfer (and sunset
5.
This is one of those you have to see what is done and I can't further comment (except strongly recommend you get a good video card if you want to note the gorgeous physical textures when the game is released) but if you think this is some WoW or Japanese themed cutsie game you are completely off the mark. Not even close. If you were referring to and don't like the special effects I already confirmed in my FAQ you can turn that off, so don't say that's why. Knowledge to select what you do or don't want details effectswise is a player's choice and I tolerated that later argument when people claimed epileptic concerns not this (if any of this is applicable.)
6. You might want to look at the 4th edition rules when it comes to immediate reactions and powers. Those ARE essentially blocking. Just because an MMO does it through action on a fighter does not mean it isn't in D&D in other ways. The fighter is more than stand and take hits. There's strategy in the powers shown HOW to be a defender ad draw enemies as well as not take hits. Shift keys and powers being used in the demos show that in the video even if not demonstrated explicitly and clearly to many. I highly recommend watching the video of the fighter and seeing this (even if any of the old video doesn't show what the newer VO announcer video now shows.)
7. Bluntly, this is where you are right. They are using the templated 4e optional tabletop builds as character class builds for the MMO, so new players can select a class. I can't comment on the customization being worked on for making the Cryptic character what it is award winning for, but know the feedback given on this by you and others is not being ignored here and elsewhere. I will say the way people looked at attribute points for DDO between win and gimped here should not be a problem due to the 4e setup of balance both in a solo and group setup.
Thanks for taking the time to read my replies and hope if I don't solve concerns it can cause discussion to help develop solutions.
Furthermore, i don't agree about "dark": forgottern realms isn't "dark" at all... it's a standard fantasy setting, or, even better, it's THE standard fantasy setting, with Greyhawk and Dragonlance.
Active blocking and combat are needed in a 2nd generation MMORPG. Otherwise, it's just a bad copy of wow without the tremendous potential wow has.
St. Augustinus
As far as the mechanics of the game not strictly following any ruleset of PnP D&D, I have no issue with it. Wizards of the Coast is so heavily involved in this project that they're not going to approve anything that would tarnish their brand by being SO outside of the box. For me, it's all about how the game plays. The tightness of the controls and UI elements and the feel as I work my way through it more than the mechanics of how random numbers fly up on the screen.
Just wait to see what it holds. I'm really encouraged by the fact that they've pushed it back. It gives them time to polish up what they have implemented, work the obvious bugs out in it and add new stuff they've got in mind. Don't kill it in your mind before you get your hands on it, that's a great way to ensure you'll hate it when ya do.
I disagree with every part of these two statements. Lore isn't important to YOU. Don't project your none caring attitude onto everybody else please.
I've played computer games with REAL D&D rules and game play. They are far to slow for an MMORPG. What it sounds like you want is a much better virtual gaming bored. Hopefully Wizards of the Coasts will make that for us all.
This is my largest concern. We just have to wait and see if they allow enough freedom to make people feel as if their character is uniquely theirs.
As for all the guardian fighter comments you made. Blah have you ever really listened to cry babies like that? You get that in every MMORPG in the world. Ignore them and keep having fun.
heres where you lost all your credibility for me.......
That is not to say however, that the block amount may be to high or to low resulting in state game play, only release will show that.
Amen brother.
Pffttt... bad example... DDO has no story - they forcibly tried to introduce some loose stories lot after launch and tried to connect them here and there - but nothing was phenomenal in it.
Only series with good story is Phiarnal Carnival, and almost everybody enjoys reading and doing diplo and stuff (and use toilet paper shrines)
that is all
How charged with punishments the scroll.
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I am the captain of my soul.
- W.E.H.
Gary Gary Gary!
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1) Combat. In melee I see big paused. It misses smoothness. And those flashy effects. Hope it will be adjusted.
2) Character templates - like above. I want to be e.g. rogue. Not a trickster rogue or defensive rogue or mechanic rogue. Maybe I want to mix all 3 or 2 together not mastering any. (yes... like in ddo). This is not SET yet... so I hope itll end up being good.
Oh and 3rd things:
3) Im gonna grow old before its released :P/.
I will also add I really love d20 etc in game rolls. But we will see how this game is gonna solve this out.
I love DDO and I know I cant expect this game to be its better clone. But I just expect it to be better.... not worse.
Anyone still searching for guilds you can check out HCG Hardcore Christian Gamers.
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[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
Shame on you.
Lore, history, backgroud. Without them, in PnP game, you are just trowing dices to kill enemyes.. Then, why don't you go to play Tibia?
=PPP
And i would LOVE do play Neverwinter with players who likes to Roleplay in online games
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
After all, it will be written by the winners. And i am one. "
(Please don't mind my bad english, i'm Brazilian.
Yeah same here.....Not going to start bashing Munchkin players, what they think is a success or failure means very little to me though.
Seriously, it is good to know you are going into the game so open minded.
I, for one, have been excited for this game since I heard about it, each video and tidbit of information released has only added to that. I love the PnP game, I love 4e, and the fact that this is based off of it is fantastic, but I have no desire to play a strait up translated version of 4e as a fast paced MMO. Have you thought about healing surges and how that would work in a raid when most Leader powers require you have one to spend? Uuuugh. It works in PnP because the fights usually last less than a minute game-time, but since play-time that fight can take hours it feels like you are getting much more done. You have a DM there that, if good, can recognize when they have gone to far and help aid the players. MMOs do not have that, mechanics MUST be updated.
As far as not caring about the lore, the comparison to DDO is flawed. DDO's stories were one-off things where you were given a wall of flavor text that, with few exceptions, was pretty boring. Look at a game like SWTOR, where there is great storyline, I knew a lot of people in that game who played each of the base classes JUST to see all the story options, people who would do multiples of the class to be able to pick different options, because some of your choices actually did come back to you later in the game. I've never been a Star Wars fan, but I found the story lines I finished to be fantastic. The side quests you get a bit back to DDO or most other MMOs on, go kill X number of these guys for whatever reason type quests, but the difference was the main storyline, and it was very effective.
Here's the bottom line: The game is free. What are you loosing again? If it is seriously not worth the time it takes to download and determine that you don't like it, go somewhere else.
As much as I look forward to this game I know that if I turn out to just hate it it is only a few clicks and it is off my computer.
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Asset upgrading poll.
lol am i not making friends with my comment about daggerdale?
Daggerdale gets too much hate....its a popcorn game and once you get out of the underground not too bad, It's a little less fun and polished than Demonstone was, plus it looks really similar to the Cryptic engine...in fact I swear I have seen some of the exact same assets in the Neverwinter videos.