Personally for me 4h editon seems more difficult to learn then 3rd edition so actually that Cryptice simplifies rules and makes it also Action combat might be a blessing to many gamers who are not used to DD 4th edition rules.
Actually fourth edition is far simpler than third edition and that was the point of the change. Players and developers themselves found that third edition had far too many rules and regulations to enjoy the game and wanted to bring it more in line with the original roots of first edition.
You can argue whether or not this was good or bad, better or worse and right or wrong all you want but that was the goal.
The reason it's being modified has more to do with adapting the mechanics to fit with an MMO than anything else. For instance they mentioned their difficulties with the rest system and how/if to include it in the game.
They're not really adapting it to simplify it, they're adapting it to make it work better in this situation.
Thank you ranncore for the link it was a great video and very informative.
I like a lot of the features they were talking about very much.
The doors anywhere is a nice touch along with the auto populating rooms with dressing.
The closer linking of foundry missions alongside cryptic ones is very cool.
Thank you truthseeker all info is gratefully received and way rewards are linked to play time and level is a fair way to prevent a lot of exploits and will help foundry missions receive the audience many deserve.
I am off to work through the foundry thread now to further explore.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Actually fourth edition is far simpler than third edition and that was the point of the change. Players and developers themselves found that third edition had far too many rules and regulations to enjoy the game and wanted to bring it more in line with the original roots of first edition.
You can argue whether or not this was good or bad, better or worse and right or wrong all you want but that was the goal.
The reason it's being modified has more to do with adapting the mechanics to fit with an MMO than anything else. For instance they mentioned their difficulties with the rest system and how/if to include it in the game.
They're not really adapting it to simplify it, they're adapting it to make it work better in this situation.
Nonsense, 3rd ed is very simple!
*opens spreadsheet to figure out the skills, cross class skills, feats and what race/class(es) must be used when for his next Prestige Class on his new character.*
ranncoreMember, Moderators, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Knight of the Feywild UsersPosts: 2,508
edited November 2012
lordthrud you've played STO right?
how does the foundry compare with what you know of it so far, and what kind of XP/loot restrictions does it have in STO?
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
lordthrud you've played STO right?
how does the foundry compare with what you know of it so far, and what kind of XP/loot restrictions does it have in STO?
Of course I'll let the recipient answer the quiestion but can say the XP is based on the Author's number of encounters and their difficulty (easy regular or hard) and there is no end reward compared to the official quests/dailies. As for three foundry quest daily rewards, I'm not touching the changing the dilithium daily rules with a ten-foot tractor beam though.
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited November 2012
The one thing I will add to such a question...
From what I have heard STO Foundry rewards are minimal and very much under-rewarded which is part of the reason there has been so much abuse on making one click missions.
However Cryptic has taken a completely new approach with the NW Foundry Rewards. The two systems aren't going to be overly comparable though I've heard tidbits of recent improvements to the STO Foundry and removal of one click missions. Somebody else should confirm that though since I don't play STO.
*opens spreadsheet to figure out the skills, cross class skills, feats and what race/class(es) must be used when for his next Prestige Class on his new character.*
Lol. I remember that when i was creating the "last campaign" for my high level friends in 3.5 i decided to add a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> solo, with character classes. So, i used a drow, without the EL penalty, and made it an optimised level 20 wizard/cleric. I remember that it took not less than 3 hours to be completed.
In 4e i could make the same character in less than 20 minutes... And it could be even able to use a good amount of his abilities in the encounter, while that wizard was basically roflstomped in 3 rounds.
Dilige, et quod vis fac (Love, and do what you will)
St. Augustinus
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Actually fourth edition is far simpler than third edition and that was the point of the change. Players and developers themselves found that third edition had far too many rules and regulations to enjoy the game and wanted to bring it more in line with the original roots of first edition.
You can argue whether or not this was good or bad, better or worse and right or wrong all you want but that was the goal.
The reason it's being modified has more to do with adapting the mechanics to fit with an MMO than anything else. For instance they mentioned their difficulties with the rest system and how/if to include it in the game.
They're not really adapting it to simplify it, they're adapting it to make it work better in this situation.
You must be kidding? I am GURU with DD 3.5 rules(easy to learn!) and I feel like a newbie with DD4th edition rules though I have read Players Handbook of DD 4th edition. I am an engineer in data communication and I certainly do not feel that 4th edition is easy to understand.
Maybe we have a misconception because understanding well means to me GURU! Would 4th edition basic rules be easy to understand so you can play it? Yes! Would it be easy to me to powergame from 4th edition rules for example a Cleric as I did in DD 3.5 edition? Absolutely no(at least not form Players Handbook!)!
For your understanding powergaming is more then simply min/max attributes no instead make your character so powerful in battles encounters that he/she owns the encounter if playing together with a group of none powergamer players!
My brother has complained that I powergame way to much in DD 3.5 pen and paper games when he is GM and I was banned from NeverwinterNights persistent player servers a few times temporary due to the ridiculous reason of to much powergaming. After reading PHB ok DD 4th edition I can't see that happening in Neverwinter though I am also happy that this time Cryptic is the server holder!
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denkasaebaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2012
Well, you can't simply powergame with only one handbook, even if the cold based combos were available immediately. The more material you put in, the simpler becomes min-maxing.
But yes, overall, i think that 4e is much much much more intuitive: lack of different BABs, lack of long reading spells, lack of 25000 types of bonus (divine, luck), much easier conditions, a much more friendly skill system, lack of multiple multiclassing (which is a shame, imho), most classes follow a similar power pattern, no CR on encounters creation but just an XP model, etc...
Dilige, et quod vis fac (Love, and do what you will)
St. Augustinus
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited November 2012
Don't get me wrong, I loved third edition. I can honestly say I'd probably enjoy this game more if it was third edition compared to fourth.
However the gameplay is a far simpler as denkasaeba said.
Of course if you define harder by your ability (inability) to create an overpowered character then the Fourth Edition Design Team achieved their goal. All classes were purposely rebalanced to prevent classes from becoming as overpowered as they were in Third Edition.
I have a plethora of stories of abusing third edition rules I'd be happy to share on another thread. I can say my uncle and I were hated by the DM's of almost every server we went to and were often accused of cheating because of our character builds.
For now let's just leave it that there were hundreds of occasions when DM's appeared while we were killing things with jaws dropped saying "We designed this to be challenging for 8 players and you're doing it solo/duo...?"
However while it may be harder to "powergame" in Fourth Edition that's because they purposely tried to prevent it. The actual fourth edition gameplay is far simpler and that is what I was referring to.
P.S. Third Edition Rules aren't directly complex, they are simply everywhere. And there are plenty of loopholes and varying interpretations which can start frequent rule quarrels. Goodbye to failing to jump (walk) over one foot gaps.
denkasaebaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2012
Oh, also 4e has its history of broken stuff... Early instances of Feycharger, Orbizard, infinite instances of attack with weapon + divine oracle... the difference is that those big issues were addressed and errataed.
Dilige, et quod vis fac (Love, and do what you will)
St. Augustinus
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Don't get me wrong, I loved third edition. I can honestly say I'd probably enjoy this game more if it was third edition compared to fourth.
However the gameplay is a far simpler as denkasaeba said.
Of course if you define harder by your ability (inability) to create an overpowered character then the Fourth Edition Design Team achieved their goal. All classes were purposely rebalanced to prevent classes from becoming as overpowered as they were in Third Edition.
I have a plethora of stories of abusing third edition rules I'd be happy to share on another thread. I can say my uncle and I were hated by the DM's of almost every server we went to and were often accused of cheating because of our character builds.
For now let's just leave it that there were hundreds of occasions when DM's appeared while we were killing things with jaws dropped saying "We designed this to be challenging for 8 players and you're doing it solo/duo...?"
However while it may be harder to "powergame" in Fourth Edition that's because they purposely tried to prevent it. The actual fourth edition gameplay is far simpler and that is what I was referring to.
P.S. Third Edition Rules aren't directly complex, they are simply everywhere. And there are plenty of loopholes and varying interpretations which can start frequent rule quarrels. Goodbye to failing to jump (walk) over one foot gaps.
Good analysis and my respect for other powergamers like you and your uncle:). Well I sense some truth that classes are much more balanced in 4th editon.
At the end comparing 3rd to 4h is like comparing apples vs oranges to me very different, but both have their benefits. I don't like that Cleric seems less powerful, but the Ranger Class seems much more interesting in 4th edition. I liked playing a Hunter(=Ranger) in WOW.
I hope Cleric and Ranger classes will be available at release. I also hope this game will have horror and nudity example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1qBesZA8kU&feature=relatedlike the TV series True Blood. Hopefully we can also have PvP in the form of team work like Capture the Flag in Battlegrounds.
Aye I am a life timer on STO and play most days as work and commitments allow.
Please keep in mind I am a dabbler in the foundry on STO there are many players out there who are experts.
From what I have seen and heard the NW version is far superior and as any fan of the foundry I cannot wait to get hands on.
I would assume it is how cryptic would have wanted the STO foundry to have been from the start and with the benefit of hindsight, player input and advances in tech.
We are going to benefit a lot from these changes.
All the basics of the STO toolset seem to be there and they have added many of the wish list applications that STO users have been asking for.
In STO you need to do work rounds in the toolset to accomplish certain tasks.
It certainly seems that now much of this will be far easier to incorporate into your adventures in NW.
The doors anywhere app is very nice I also heard rumours of being able to expand the cryptic pre made maps by adding extra corridors and rooms this would certainly be awesome.
If anyone can confirm if this will be in game I would be very grateful.
The integration of the toolset and missions into the game looks much better which can only be a good thing as there seemed to be a strange kind of disconnect between the two in STO.
To be fair they are trying to remedy this as with the UI changes in the season 7 build.
The choice of game assets in the foundry also seem to be larger than in STO and choice is always good and masses of choice even better.
I imagine that the architectural build items columns, blocks and walls are there as well. As the foundry for me is all about creativity and story.
The assets cryptic supply are always very good but there is nothing like building your own temple of elemental evil that’s unique to your foundry adventure.
Loot for foundry missions. This has always been a touchy subject in STO.
As truthseeker said for the individual missions.
The daily quest for completing 3 foundry missions gives a reward of skill points, expertise points, and the choice of a level specific item or a dilithium reward box.
And I totally agree with truthseeker the less said about that box at the moment the better lol.
Until we get hands on its hard to tell how well this will all come together but for now it is looking very slick and polished and I am very much looking forward to more years of fun from them.
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2012
Looks like there is a confusion between pre-made maps, self-contained structures, and open modular pieces. Pre made maps are things like forests or caverns with decor already done. Since it's an entire area you can't add rooms or hallways to them the same way you can't do so on a tabletop pre-made map. Like the physical example, you can always add other items and characters of course.
Self-Contained structures would be normally like that ToEE which would likely exist in the Foundry as a pre-formed "single unit" structure. I'm guessing it would have pillars and stairs and doors in key spots, but nothing else. This would work for the"auto populate" of furniture and other items, but I bet since it's self contained, it would have very limited "points" for "doors anywhere." I think I once saw a "peasant shack" option too in a video, and this would work the same way.
Open modular pieces means any "single modular component" that could be connected to any other. So that s-shaped hallway would link (with doors anywhere) to that 10*30 room, both could have items manually placed or "auto populated" as mentioned earlier, and have the extra corridors and rooms. Custom interior maps work like this I'm positive what Craig and Andy have shown us, but I suspect since it works with "modular" setups, they likely only have "premade outdoor maps" "unpopulated outdoor map templates" also, and "customizable modular indoor maps" like we just mentioned. I'd love to be wrong on this, but have yet to see an outdoor map be added to with "corridors" and "clearings" (instead of "rooms") in any video yet.
foodleMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited November 2012
1. No gear grind, no gear tiers
2. Level down system that makes all level content fun to play and that rewards you for your current level. So someone level 80 in a level 10 area would get rewards with loot as if he was playing a level 80 area.
3. Open world 3 faction PvP with objectives and rewards
4. Player made mods at launch, sick of broken UIs that are low on the devs list of things to fix. Players do this much better.
5. Public quests / Dynamic event system
6. Fun and low grind, when did MMO become 90% about the grind. If there is no reason to have a grind dont add it. Like leveling, dont make it take 6 months to a year to get top level, just make it take long enough you learn your char and the game.
7. Casual gamer friendly. Make progress saveable. Make encounter/raids that are short so that casual gamers have time to do content and hard core players can do many encounters. Nothing worse that not being able to get X gear in Y raid because I dont have 5 hours to play. I will do the same work but over a longer time frame.
8. Make auction houses game wide, not server based (like GW2). This system is awesome for the game, crafters and casual gamers and stops a lot of exploits.
9. lots of rewards and reasons to explore and stick my nose in every corner of the map.
10. Higher level you get in most games the more ugly maps get. My wife keep pointing this out to me and her gaming girlfriends say the same thing. Can there be high level zones that look purdy? Seems when you get end game its all war zones and undead monsters in a swamp. What about "Elemental Plane of Nature" as a high level area?
12. Player houses. I like it but its the one thing a lot of female players go nuts over. Sorry if my wife does not like the game to... well you get the idea.
13. Make lots of content for small teams. Would be nice if there could be content you dont need the holly trinity for.
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psychotichamsterMember, Neverwinter Beta Users, Neverwinter Guardian UsersPosts: 8Arc User
edited November 2012
1. A large dynamic world. If anyone knows, approx. where is the cutoff on the Faerun of where the game is taking place of. I know they've said "The Sword Coast", but that's a really large tract of land, and it seems weird of them to not try and move inland a bit. Dynamic weather/wilderness would be pretty awesome, where it takes a while for a certain plant to grow back, and you could go and plant something not native to the area, and if you come back much later its starting to grow there. Non instanced zones and a variety of caves/dungeons(not group ones, actual dungeons and such), houses, ruins dotted through the world.
2. A personal crafting system. Allow us to choose color scheme and add adornments/engravings/and other addons to pieces of equipment, allow naming and giving it a back story. For all crafts, allow the use of different mats for an item(i.e. a certain potion can be made using a combination of 10 different herbs instead of just 1.) Crafting should be about exploring the world, finding unknown materials and ingredients and testing them to see how they work and what they make.
3. Good PvP. I've never been a fan of games whose "pvp" that people really get into is essentially ganking. Instead of making it super structured or super loose, find a balance. Allow for arenas that flag you when you go in(with an unflagging timer if you leave), have guilds formally declare war on each other, or multiple guilds. There should be at least 1 PvP zone, that guilds can try and take over, for access to "whatever" be it a dungeon, form of income, etc..
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
2. Level down system that makes all level content fun to play and that rewards you for your current level. So someone level 80 in a level 10 area would get rewards with loot as if he was playing a level 80 area.
Ahhh, no. What you are saying is in persistent worlds [where the enemies are a set minor variable range looking at all enemies in the zone, but fixed level assigned to the specific type (example could be 10, 11, or 12, but a brute would always be 12 and a caster would always be 11 and a rogue would always be 10, etc.)]
is the player could go to the "Cloak tower" area (that's where I think it's level 10 or 12 I think on average but hard to tell in videos with those orc fights) when player characters are double that level or more in that higher content area instead (Blackdagger, Uthgard Grey Wolf Tribe, anywhere from 20-60 at least, let's just say 30 for this reply.) So a L 30 character can go to a Level 10-12 area, kill enemies who would be no higher than L 12 in those persistent areas, and get level 30 drops., based on your suggestion if used in persistent areas which do not randomly adapt enemy levels in zones
Now in instanced areas, the zone automatically scales to your overall level, including party level whether solo or group. Cryptic's been a bit mum if they will use the STO method to "sync" levels for those who group up this way or not. Either way, the overall instanced level drops that range of loot based on the easy/normal/hard enemies fought, and the static official quest end chest items I have always seen in CO and in STO by Cryptic's official missions. Foundry items will always use a random dynamic end chest reward in NWO based on overall level and active time spent in the mission.
4. Player made mods at launch, sick of broken UIs that are low on the devs list of things to fix. Players do this much better.
Actually, I've heard the Foundry testing had more problems with their links than the official games with the pathing, but I have nothing publicly to support this at this time. So I'll consider it rumor at this time. However, I can say UI means User Interface in the MMO world. I guessed you meant quest linking but could be wrong on this. But as my FAQ linked in my banner shows in Section II Foundry, the mods the users will create in Beta WILL be there for launch, so player mods a plenty will be there! The problem? Plenty of player mods and we have to go through all them to find the good ones!
Seriously, there will also be spotlighted and star ranking for UGC to sort those out, just playing there!
5. Public quests / Dynamic event system
Already done and shown here. Besides me mentioning that in my FAQ in the same section, I also made this News by Topic meta-link so you can peruse all things Cryptic has discussed on the blog without having to archive months and months on the official News blog. The dates next to the links are my doing to show how "recent" it is as well as my posting the meta-links in a most recent to least recent per topic listing.
6. Fun and low grind, when did MMO become 90% about the grind. If there is no reason to have a grind dont add it. Like leveling, dont make it take 6 months to a year to get top level, just make it take long enough you learn your char and the game.
Seconded!
7. Casual gamer friendly. Make progress saveable. Make encounter/raids that are short so that casual gamers have time to do content and hard core players can do many encounters. Nothing worse that not being able to get X gear in Y raid because I dont have 5 hours to play. I will do the same work but over a longer time frame.
Already mentioned in multiple posts as well as my FAQ that their answer to RAIDs (Delves) can be finished by a 5-person team in an hour or sometimes less! As for only 5 max for the "RAID" type quests, that's another debate...
8. Make auction houses game wide, not server based (like GW2). This system is awesome for the game, crafters and casual gamers and stops a lot of exploits.
We're all on one big server. Moot.
9. lots of rewards and reasons to explore and stick my nose in every corner of the map.
SECONDED! I'm (secretly) getting whispers besides the normal item rewards, they have "lore" that works the same way the STO Accomplishments do. As how that works in D&D, I can't say.
10. Higher level you get in most games the more ugly maps get. My wife keep pointing this out to me and her gaming girlfriends say the same thing. Can there be high level zones that look purdy? Seems when you get end game its all war zones and undead monsters in a swamp. What about "Elemental Plane of Nature" as a high level area?
Not sure since all we got is this video, (and somewhere else, there is a older video with Andy showing it at E3 in an interview I think) but the Werewolves allegedly are the high-end content monsters of Vellosk, and they just have an AWESOME Wolf mountain as well as some lovely scenery it seems. These are from actual game content BTW. Gotta wait to test it and see though of course.
13. Make lots of content for small teams. Would be nice if there could be content you dont need the holly trinity for.
Allegedly, the content will be made (except for the delves) for solo players or multiplayer use. We shall see.
Please, tell me there will be gear tiers and gear rewards. I want my reward, or it will become GW2-the second.
I sometimes muddle the specfific terms. What does that mean in an MMO exactly? It it (yet) another WoW example like this? Because if CO and STO taught me one thing, Cryptic will eventually put in questing for gear sets. I just don't think it will be in for launch but neither were the F;eet Actions if I remember correctly.
I sometimes muddle the specfific terms. What does that mean in an MMO exactly? It it (yet) another WoW example like this? Because if CO and STO taught me one thing, Cryptic will eventually put in questing for gear sets.
Yes and no. Yes, because it puts some difference between players' gearsets. If you play a lot, you should have better gear, period. This is also made to provide psychological incentives and keep people playing.
No, because the way you get the best loot should not be only limited to raids. Questing for gear sets is good, as long as you may be able to do also with a "standard" party of 4-5 members. Or even solo.
Dilige, et quod vis fac (Love, and do what you will)
St. Augustinus
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iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yes and no. Yes, because it puts some difference between players' gearsets. If you play a lot, you should have better gear, period. This is also made to provide psychological incentives and keep people playing.
No, because the way you get the best loot should not be only limited to raids. Questing for gear sets is good, as long as you may be able to do also with a "standard" party of 4-5 members. Or even solo.
In that case, I think you'll be disappointed at the present release because I know the best gear drops at release will be Delves which require a 5-person team to complete the multiplayer mission (and drop the best loot.)
In that case, I think you'll be disappointed at the present release because I know the best gear drops at release will be Delves which require a 5-person team to complete the multiplayer mission (and drop the best loot.)
Oh no, i'm not disappointed.
1) because i'm not 24 anymore, i have a family and not so much time to raid
2) because it's d&d... a group of 5 people in a delve. It's so much d&d.
That said, i hope there are raids, for people who like/want to raid.
Dilige, et quod vis fac (Love, and do what you will)
St. Augustinus
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
1. No gear grind, no gear tiers
2. Level down system that makes all level content fun to play and that rewards you for your current level. So someone level 80 in a level 10 area would get rewards with loot as if he was playing a level 80 area.
3. Open world 3 faction PvP with objectives and rewards
4. Player made mods at launch, sick of broken UIs that are low on the devs list of things to fix. Players do this much better.
5. Public quests / Dynamic event system
6. Fun and low grind, when did MMO become 90% about the grind. If there is no reason to have a grind dont add it. Like leveling, dont make it take 6 months to a year to get top level, just make it take long enough you learn your char and the game.
7. Casual gamer friendly. Make progress saveable. Make encounter/raids that are short so that casual gamers have time to do content and hard core players can do many encounters. Nothing worse that not being able to get X gear in Y raid because I dont have 5 hours to play. I will do the same work but over a longer time frame.
8. Make auction houses game wide, not server based (like GW2). This system is awesome for the game, crafters and casual gamers and stops a lot of exploits.
9. lots of rewards and reasons to explore and stick my nose in every corner of the map.
10. Higher level you get in most games the more ugly maps get. My wife keep pointing this out to me and her gaming girlfriends say the same thing. Can there be high level zones that look purdy? Seems when you get end game its all war zones and undead monsters in a swamp. What about "Elemental Plane of Nature" as a high level area?
12. Player houses. I like it but its the one thing a lot of female players go nuts over. Sorry if my wife does not like the game to... well you get the idea.
13. Make lots of content for small teams. Would be nice if there could be content you dont need the holly trinity for.
Shortly said this is not Guild Wars 2. Maybe you should return to GW2 since this is not GW2!
A few things to start with that differs from GW2: 1. Developers talk openly about endgame exist! Forget about casual carebear mentality of Guild Wars 2 loot policy. I suspect it will not be so hardcore as WOW(endless loot mill never max your character), but neither will it be so annoying casual as Guild Wars 2(max your character in less then 2 weeks!). If you play 40 hours/week then I would expect it to take months before you max your character! Anyway we do know that random loot drops exist. 2. Max level is 60 at release. They have divided the 20 levels and multiplied it with 3. Max level is not 80 at release, but the levelup speed will certainly be slower then in GW2. 3. PvP. We really do not know anything about PvP except that full Open World PvP with no limits will not be supported. I would suspect Battlegrounds(instance areas with environment example forest), but much less scale then GW2 the Mist. If you are looking for huge PvP fights like GW2 then Mist then you will logically be disappointed. On the other hand since really huge fights with hundreds of players do not exist then the CPU system requirements will be more friendly. We do not know if for example Capture the Flag(my wish), Deathmatch or what possible PvP gaming modes are supported. PvP will be in the game, but remains to be seen what kind of PvP will be supported. 4. The holy trinity absolutely exist. Sigh have you seen any video about this game at all? They have showed the Guardian Fighter that is a classic TANK role. While still in the dark I suspect Cleric will be available as Healer at the release. Another class that might(maybe) likely be in the release is the Ranger as DPS role. Anyway Trickster Rogue and Control Wizard are classic DPS roles, but their method of DPS is very different since Control Wizard always prefers to keep safe distance from enemies. 5. There is no scaling in this game forget that. Your level does not scale neither does the encounters if you wander to high level areas you could be slaughtered as should be.
Sorry for the harsh answer. This is not GW2 and neither my brother or me never want to play GW2 again. So what so special about this game then that makes it very different from both WOW and Guild Wars 2?Well IMO it is the FOUNDRY a powerful tool that players can create good PvE adventures that other players can enjoy. Thus we have a constant supply of PvE content and if you are worried that you will play bad adventures there exist a rating(voting) system so adventures can get scores and you can choose to play top rated user created adventures if you get bored on the Cryptic created main quest/adventures.
We also have Action combat combined with DD 4th edition rules more or less. Wizards actually need to aim like in a FPS to hit the target.
Finally WOTC and the famous author R.A Salvatore supports this game and it is a free game.
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denkasaebaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Shortly said this is not Guild Wars 2. Maybe you should return to GW2 since this is not GW2! [...]1. Developers talk openly about endgame exist!Forget about casual carebear mentality of Guild Wars 2 loot policy. I suspect it will not be so hardcore as WOW(endless loot mill never max your character) but neither will it be so annoying casual as Guild Wars 2(max your character in less then 2 weeks!). If you play 40 hour/week then I would expect it to take months before you max your character! Anyway we do know that random loot drops exist.
2. Max level is 60 at release. They have divided the 20 levels and multiplied it with 3. Max level is not 80 at release, but the levelup speed will certainly be slower then in GW2.
[...]full Open World with no limits will not be supported. I would suspect Battlegrounds(instance areas with environment example forest) but much less scale then GW2 the Mist and. If you are looking for huge PvP fights like GW2 then Mist then you will logically be disappointed. On the other hand since really huge fights with hundreds of players do not exist then the CPU system requirements will be more friendly.
[...] The holy trinity absolutely exist.[/[/B]Sigh have you seen any video about this game at all? They have showed the Guardian that is a classic TANK role. While still in the dark I suspect Cleric will be available as Healer at the release. Another class that might(maybe) likely be in the release is the Ranger as DPS role.
Sorry for the harsh answer. This is not GW2 and neither my brother or me never want to play GW2 again.
God bless you Especially for the Holy Trinity (pun intended ).
Dilige, et quod vis fac (Love, and do what you will)
What I want from this game? I want it to feel like Dungeons and Dragons.
Yep, that's pretty much it in the short. With that being said, I expect there to be healers, tanks, dungeons and probably a dragon or two somewhere but I can only hope they're scary enough that I don't want to see one right away. DnD was never about max level play but about the adventure, in theory. Being that it is a computer game there will be a max level but hopefully my character won't feel his life's goal has been completed a week out of the stable. I want the experience to be fun, not monotonous. I want to feel like my character has a purpose and it is my job as a player to help him accomplish it. I always preferred low magic settings myself but don't want to feel pressured or penalized for not having top rated gear. I want to be able to have enough ways to express my character in the game world to want to play on different toons at times just to see what would happen if I do things differently. There is only so much freeform you can have but given the Foundry I'm hoping for a lot of options. Some people want to play a goody two-shoes paladin, some people will want to play a demon worshiping wizard, I'll be playing the snarky swashbuckler with a flair for the unexpected.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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elewyndylMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
God bless you Especially for the Holy Trinity (pun intended ).
Yeah Holy Trinity exists. After experiencing GW2 I would say it is no blessing to skip Holy Trinity.GW2 has a ridiculous death system so anyone can resurect easily another party member so the fights become annoying resurect festivals since in GW2 there exist no tank that can take damage. Neverwinter is action fight so it wiser that the Tank tries to dodge the blow while still standing in front of the enemy.
We don't know the death system of Neverwinter, but I suspect strongly it will not be the same annoying system that Guild Wars 2 uses. Guild Wars 2 is like a respawn festival.
There might be some complications though. For example you want to play more offensive Cleric and everybody expects you to be healer, but at the end of day I think Cleric can pull of both roles at same time i.e multitasking.
Guardian Fighter is pretty much meant for TANK role, but even then you can do some damage. Playing a Control Wizard I suspect it is all not about dps and also how to control mobs:). I think the whole idea of names like Trickster Rogue and Control Wizard is to specify they are specialized, but also at same time not so simple to play and a bit more versatible.
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denkasaebaMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yeah Holy Trinity exists. After experiencing GW2 I would say it is no blessing to skip Holy Trinity. There might be some complications though. For example you want to play more offensive Cleric and everybody expects you to be healer, but at the end of day I think Cleric can pull of both roles at same time i.e multitasking. Guardian Fighter is pretty much meant for TANK role, but even then you can do some damage. Playing a Control Wizard I suspect it is all not about dps and also how to control mobs:). I think the whole idea of names like Trickster Rogue and Control Wizard is to specify they are specialized but also not so simple and a bit more versatible.
Exactly like in 4e, each class has an inherited "sub role" that deals very well with. For instance the Fighter, especially the 2h weapon version, is a decent striker (especially with hammers and polearms). The Battle Cleric can work decently as off-tank and the Devoted Cleric is a nice controller and debuffer. The rogue class feature is based around controlling the enemy: as such the rogue is a decent off-controller.
Imho there are very few "pure" classes: one of them is surely the ranger, which is only a striker (but it's the best striker in the game, hands down).
I think that the game will be move towards this direction: each character has a role, but it makes it work in different ways.
Dilige, et quod vis fac (Love, and do what you will)
St. Augustinus
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foodleMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
2. Level down system that makes all level content fun to play and that rewards you for your current level. So someone level 80 in a level 10 area would get rewards with loot as if he was playing a level 80 area.
Ahhh, no. What you are saying is in persistent worlds [where the enemies are a set minor variable range looking at all enemies in the zone, but fixed level assigned to the specific type (example could be 10, 11, or 12, but a brute would always be 12 and a caster would always be 11 and a rogue would always be 10, etc.)]
is the player could go to the "Cloak tower" area (that's where I think it's level 10 or 12 I think on average but hard to tell in videos with those orc fights) when player characters are double that level or more in that higher content area instead (Blackdagger, Uthgard Grey Wolf Tribe, anywhere from 20-60 at least, let's just say 30 for this reply.) So a L 30 character can go to a Level 10-12 area, kill enemies who would be no higher than L 12 in those persistent areas, and get level 30 drops., based on your suggestion if used in persistent areas which do not randomly adapt enemy levels in zones
Now in instanced areas, the zone automatically scales to your overall level, including party level whether solo or group. Cryptic's been a bit mum if they will use the STO method to "sync" levels for those who group up this way or not. Either way, the overall instanced level drops that range of loot based on the easy/normal/hard enemies fought, and the static official quest end chest items I have always seen in CO and in STO by Cryptic's official missions. Foundry items will always use a random dynamic end chest reward in NWO based on overall level and active time spent in the mission. [/COLOR].
GW2 did it and it works like this. If you are level 80 and you goto a level 10-15 map. You are lowered to level 15. Now this make content playable as not a easy walk threw with tones of gery con mobs. Also when high level players come in the area to get the map done, they are not cake walking the content with low level players not being able to join in. This video talks about it...
GW2 did it and it works like this. If you are level 80 and you goto a level 10-15 map. You are lowered to level 15. Now this make content playable as not a easy walk threw with tones of gery con mobs. Also when high level players come in the area to get the map done, they are not cake walking the content with low level players not being able to join in. This video talks about it...
I'm sorry, but having played gw2, this is not completely true. While you won't wave through mobs, you'll deal substantially more damage to them than you do at low level. Doing AC at level 30 is a thing, doing it al level 80 is another.
Dilige, et quod vis fac (Love, and do what you will)
St. Augustinus
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foodleMember, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
Yeah Holy Trinity exists. After experiencing GW2 I would say it is no blessing to skip Holy Trinity.GW2 has a ridiculous death system so anyone can resurect easily another party member so the fights become annoying resurect festivals since in GW2 there exist no tank that can take damage. Neverwinter is action fight so it wiser that the Tank tries to dodge the blow while still standing in front of the enemy.
We don't know the death system of Neverwinter, but I suspect strongly it will not be the same annoying system that Guild Wars 2 uses. Guild Wars 2 is like a respawn festival.
There might be some complications though. For example you want to play more offensive Cleric and everybody expects you to be healer, but at the end of day I think Cleric can pull of both roles at same time i.e multitasking.
Guardian Fighter is pretty much meant for TANK role, but even then you can do some damage. Playing a Control Wizard I suspect it is all not about dps and also how to control mobs:). I think the whole idea of names like Trickster Rogue and Control Wizard is to specify they are specialized, but also at same time not so simple to play and a bit more versatible.
Ya I agree, I miss the holy trinity in GW2. What I was asking for in my post was that not all content require it. In DnD you didnt need to make sure your team had the healer, tank and DPS to get all content done. It helped but for small adventures it was not needed. I hope NW adds 2-3 man content that does not need the holy trinity to get done but has a higher reward then standard solo content. I find it a blast when 2-3 random strangers in a MMO say "Hay wana try and take that random boss?" In EQ1 back in the day, rare spawn bosses and Hill Giants were just such outlets. I would like to see NW take a hard look at that type of content.
Comments
Actually fourth edition is far simpler than third edition and that was the point of the change. Players and developers themselves found that third edition had far too many rules and regulations to enjoy the game and wanted to bring it more in line with the original roots of first edition.
You can argue whether or not this was good or bad, better or worse and right or wrong all you want but that was the goal.
The reason it's being modified has more to do with adapting the mechanics to fit with an MMO than anything else. For instance they mentioned their difficulties with the rest system and how/if to include it in the game.
They're not really adapting it to simplify it, they're adapting it to make it work better in this situation.
I like a lot of the features they were talking about very much.
The doors anywhere is a nice touch along with the auto populating rooms with dressing.
The closer linking of foundry missions alongside cryptic ones is very cool.
Thank you truthseeker all info is gratefully received and way rewards are linked to play time and level is a fair way to prevent a lot of exploits and will help foundry missions receive the audience many deserve.
I am off to work through the foundry thread now to further explore.
Nonsense, 3rd ed is very simple!
*opens spreadsheet to figure out the skills, cross class skills, feats and what race/class(es) must be used when for his next Prestige Class on his new character.*
how does the foundry compare with what you know of it so far, and what kind of XP/loot restrictions does it have in STO?
Of course I'll let the recipient answer the quiestion but can say the XP is based on the Author's number of encounters and their difficulty (easy regular or hard) and there is no end reward compared to the official quests/dailies. As for three foundry quest daily rewards, I'm not touching the changing the dilithium daily rules with a ten-foot tractor beam though.
From what I have heard STO Foundry rewards are minimal and very much under-rewarded which is part of the reason there has been so much abuse on making one click missions.
However Cryptic has taken a completely new approach with the NW Foundry Rewards. The two systems aren't going to be overly comparable though I've heard tidbits of recent improvements to the STO Foundry and removal of one click missions. Somebody else should confirm that though since I don't play STO.
Lol. I remember that when i was creating the "last campaign" for my high level friends in 3.5 i decided to add a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> solo, with character classes. So, i used a drow, without the EL penalty, and made it an optimised level 20 wizard/cleric. I remember that it took not less than 3 hours to be completed.
In 4e i could make the same character in less than 20 minutes... And it could be even able to use a good amount of his abilities in the encounter, while that wizard was basically roflstomped in 3 rounds.
St. Augustinus
Maybe we have a misconception because understanding well means to me GURU! Would 4th edition basic rules be easy to understand so you can play it? Yes! Would it be easy to me to powergame from 4th edition rules for example a Cleric as I did in DD 3.5 edition? Absolutely no(at least not form Players Handbook!)!
For your understanding powergaming is more then simply min/max attributes no instead make your character so powerful in battles encounters that he/she owns the encounter if playing together with a group of none powergamer players!
My brother has complained that I powergame way to much in DD 3.5 pen and paper games when he is GM and I was banned from NeverwinterNights persistent player servers a few times temporary due to the ridiculous reason of to much powergaming. After reading PHB ok DD 4th edition I can't see that happening in Neverwinter though I am also happy that this time Cryptic is the server holder!
But yes, overall, i think that 4e is much much much more intuitive: lack of different BABs, lack of long reading spells, lack of 25000 types of bonus (divine, luck), much easier conditions, a much more friendly skill system, lack of multiple multiclassing (which is a shame, imho), most classes follow a similar power pattern, no CR on encounters creation but just an XP model, etc...
St. Augustinus
However the gameplay is a far simpler as denkasaeba said.
Of course if you define harder by your ability (inability) to create an overpowered character then the Fourth Edition Design Team achieved their goal. All classes were purposely rebalanced to prevent classes from becoming as overpowered as they were in Third Edition.
I have a plethora of stories of abusing third edition rules I'd be happy to share on another thread. I can say my uncle and I were hated by the DM's of almost every server we went to and were often accused of cheating because of our character builds.
For now let's just leave it that there were hundreds of occasions when DM's appeared while we were killing things with jaws dropped saying "We designed this to be challenging for 8 players and you're doing it solo/duo...?"
However while it may be harder to "powergame" in Fourth Edition that's because they purposely tried to prevent it. The actual fourth edition gameplay is far simpler and that is what I was referring to.
P.S. Third Edition Rules aren't directly complex, they are simply everywhere. And there are plenty of loopholes and varying interpretations which can start frequent rule quarrels. Goodbye to failing to jump (walk) over one foot gaps.
St. Augustinus
At the end comparing 3rd to 4h is like comparing apples vs oranges to me very different, but both have their benefits. I don't like that Cleric seems less powerful, but the Ranger Class seems much more interesting in 4th edition. I liked playing a Hunter(=Ranger) in WOW.
I hope Cleric and Ranger classes will be available at release. I also hope this game will have horror and nudity example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1qBesZA8kU&feature=relatedlike the TV series True Blood. Hopefully we can also have PvP in the form of team work like Capture the Flag in Battlegrounds.
Please keep in mind I am a dabbler in the foundry on STO there are many players out there who are experts.
From what I have seen and heard the NW version is far superior and as any fan of the foundry I cannot wait to get hands on.
I would assume it is how cryptic would have wanted the STO foundry to have been from the start and with the benefit of hindsight, player input and advances in tech.
We are going to benefit a lot from these changes.
All the basics of the STO toolset seem to be there and they have added many of the wish list applications that STO users have been asking for.
In STO you need to do work rounds in the toolset to accomplish certain tasks.
It certainly seems that now much of this will be far easier to incorporate into your adventures in NW.
The doors anywhere app is very nice I also heard rumours of being able to expand the cryptic pre made maps by adding extra corridors and rooms this would certainly be awesome.
If anyone can confirm if this will be in game I would be very grateful.
The integration of the toolset and missions into the game looks much better which can only be a good thing as there seemed to be a strange kind of disconnect between the two in STO.
To be fair they are trying to remedy this as with the UI changes in the season 7 build.
The choice of game assets in the foundry also seem to be larger than in STO and choice is always good and masses of choice even better.
I imagine that the architectural build items columns, blocks and walls are there as well. As the foundry for me is all about creativity and story.
The assets cryptic supply are always very good but there is nothing like building your own temple of elemental evil that’s unique to your foundry adventure.
Loot for foundry missions. This has always been a touchy subject in STO.
As truthseeker said for the individual missions.
The daily quest for completing 3 foundry missions gives a reward of skill points, expertise points, and the choice of a level specific item or a dilithium reward box.
And I totally agree with truthseeker the less said about that box at the moment the better lol.
Until we get hands on its hard to tell how well this will all come together but for now it is looking very slick and polished and I am very much looking forward to more years of fun from them.
Self-Contained structures would be normally like that ToEE which would likely exist in the Foundry as a pre-formed "single unit" structure. I'm guessing it would have pillars and stairs and doors in key spots, but nothing else. This would work for the"auto populate" of furniture and other items, but I bet since it's self contained, it would have very limited "points" for "doors anywhere." I think I once saw a "peasant shack" option too in a video, and this would work the same way.
Open modular pieces means any "single modular component" that could be connected to any other. So that s-shaped hallway would link (with doors anywhere) to that 10*30 room, both could have items manually placed or "auto populated" as mentioned earlier, and have the extra corridors and rooms. Custom interior maps work like this I'm positive what Craig and Andy have shown us, but I suspect since it works with "modular" setups, they likely only have "premade outdoor maps" "unpopulated outdoor map templates" also, and "customizable modular indoor maps" like we just mentioned. I'd love to be wrong on this, but have yet to see an outdoor map be added to with "corridors" and "clearings" (instead of "rooms") in any video yet.
2. Level down system that makes all level content fun to play and that rewards you for your current level. So someone level 80 in a level 10 area would get rewards with loot as if he was playing a level 80 area.
3. Open world 3 faction PvP with objectives and rewards
4. Player made mods at launch, sick of broken UIs that are low on the devs list of things to fix. Players do this much better.
5. Public quests / Dynamic event system
6. Fun and low grind, when did MMO become 90% about the grind. If there is no reason to have a grind dont add it. Like leveling, dont make it take 6 months to a year to get top level, just make it take long enough you learn your char and the game.
7. Casual gamer friendly. Make progress saveable. Make encounter/raids that are short so that casual gamers have time to do content and hard core players can do many encounters. Nothing worse that not being able to get X gear in Y raid because I dont have 5 hours to play. I will do the same work but over a longer time frame.
8. Make auction houses game wide, not server based (like GW2). This system is awesome for the game, crafters and casual gamers and stops a lot of exploits.
9. lots of rewards and reasons to explore and stick my nose in every corner of the map.
10. Higher level you get in most games the more ugly maps get. My wife keep pointing this out to me and her gaming girlfriends say the same thing. Can there be high level zones that look purdy? Seems when you get end game its all war zones and undead monsters in a swamp. What about "Elemental Plane of Nature" as a high level area?
12. Player houses. I like it but its the one thing a lot of female players go nuts over. Sorry if my wife does not like the game to... well you get the idea.
13. Make lots of content for small teams. Would be nice if there could be content you dont need the holly trinity for.
2. A personal crafting system. Allow us to choose color scheme and add adornments/engravings/and other addons to pieces of equipment, allow naming and giving it a back story. For all crafts, allow the use of different mats for an item(i.e. a certain potion can be made using a combination of 10 different herbs instead of just 1.) Crafting should be about exploring the world, finding unknown materials and ingredients and testing them to see how they work and what they make.
3. Good PvP. I've never been a fan of games whose "pvp" that people really get into is essentially ganking. Instead of making it super structured or super loose, find a balance. Allow for arenas that flag you when you go in(with an unflagging timer if you leave), have guilds formally declare war on each other, or multiple guilds. There should be at least 1 PvP zone, that guilds can try and take over, for access to "whatever" be it a dungeon, form of income, etc..
St. Augustinus
I sometimes muddle the specfific terms. What does that mean in an MMO exactly? It it (yet) another WoW example like this? Because if CO and STO taught me one thing, Cryptic will eventually put in questing for gear sets. I just don't think it will be in for launch but neither were the F;eet Actions if I remember correctly.
Yes and no. Yes, because it puts some difference between players' gearsets. If you play a lot, you should have better gear, period. This is also made to provide psychological incentives and keep people playing.
No, because the way you get the best loot should not be only limited to raids. Questing for gear sets is good, as long as you may be able to do also with a "standard" party of 4-5 members. Or even solo.
St. Augustinus
In that case, I think you'll be disappointed at the present release because I know the best gear drops at release will be Delves which require a 5-person team to complete the multiplayer mission (and drop the best loot.)
Oh no, i'm not disappointed.
1) because i'm not 24 anymore, i have a family and not so much time to raid
2) because it's d&d... a group of 5 people in a delve. It's so much d&d.
That said, i hope there are raids, for people who like/want to raid.
St. Augustinus
A few things to start with that differs from GW2:
1. Developers talk openly about endgame exist! Forget about casual carebear mentality of Guild Wars 2 loot policy. I suspect it will not be so hardcore as WOW(endless loot mill never max your character), but neither will it be so annoying casual as Guild Wars 2(max your character in less then 2 weeks!). If you play 40 hours/week then I would expect it to take months before you max your character! Anyway we do know that random loot drops exist.
2. Max level is 60 at release. They have divided the 20 levels and multiplied it with 3. Max level is not 80 at release, but the levelup speed will certainly be slower then in GW2.
3. PvP. We really do not know anything about PvP except that full Open World PvP with no limits will not be supported. I would suspect Battlegrounds(instance areas with environment example forest), but much less scale then GW2 the Mist. If you are looking for huge PvP fights like GW2 then Mist then you will logically be disappointed. On the other hand since really huge fights with hundreds of players do not exist then the CPU system requirements will be more friendly. We do not know if for example Capture the Flag(my wish), Deathmatch or what possible PvP gaming modes are supported. PvP will be in the game, but remains to be seen what kind of PvP will be supported.
4. The holy trinity absolutely exist. Sigh have you seen any video about this game at all? They have showed the Guardian Fighter that is a classic TANK role. While still in the dark I suspect Cleric will be available as Healer at the release. Another class that might(maybe) likely be in the release is the Ranger as DPS role. Anyway Trickster Rogue and Control Wizard are classic DPS roles, but their method of DPS is very different since Control Wizard always prefers to keep safe distance from enemies.
5. There is no scaling in this game forget that. Your level does not scale neither does the encounters if you wander to high level areas you could be slaughtered as should be.
Sorry for the harsh answer. This is not GW2 and neither my brother or me never want to play GW2 again. So what so special about this game then that makes it very different from both WOW and Guild Wars 2? Well IMO it is the FOUNDRY a powerful tool that players can create good PvE adventures that other players can enjoy. Thus we have a constant supply of PvE content and if you are worried that you will play bad adventures there exist a rating(voting) system so adventures can get scores and you can choose to play top rated user created adventures if you get bored on the Cryptic created main quest/adventures.
We also have Action combat combined with DD 4th edition rules more or less. Wizards actually need to aim like in a FPS to hit the target.
Finally WOTC and the famous author R.A Salvatore supports this game and it is a free game.
God bless you
St. Augustinus
Yep, that's pretty much it in the short. With that being said, I expect there to be healers, tanks, dungeons and probably a dragon or two somewhere but I can only hope they're scary enough that I don't want to see one right away. DnD was never about max level play but about the adventure, in theory. Being that it is a computer game there will be a max level but hopefully my character won't feel his life's goal has been completed a week out of the stable. I want the experience to be fun, not monotonous. I want to feel like my character has a purpose and it is my job as a player to help him accomplish it. I always preferred low magic settings myself but don't want to feel pressured or penalized for not having top rated gear. I want to be able to have enough ways to express my character in the game world to want to play on different toons at times just to see what would happen if I do things differently. There is only so much freeform you can have but given the Foundry I'm hoping for a lot of options. Some people want to play a goody two-shoes paladin, some people will want to play a demon worshiping wizard, I'll be playing the snarky swashbuckler with a flair for the unexpected.
We don't know the death system of Neverwinter, but I suspect strongly it will not be the same annoying system that Guild Wars 2 uses. Guild Wars 2 is like a respawn festival.
There might be some complications though. For example you want to play more offensive Cleric and everybody expects you to be healer, but at the end of day I think Cleric can pull of both roles at same time i.e multitasking.
Guardian Fighter is pretty much meant for TANK role, but even then you can do some damage. Playing a Control Wizard I suspect it is all not about dps and also how to control mobs:). I think the whole idea of names like Trickster Rogue and Control Wizard is to specify they are specialized, but also at same time not so simple to play and a bit more versatible.
Exactly like in 4e, each class has an inherited "sub role" that deals very well with. For instance the Fighter, especially the 2h weapon version, is a decent striker (especially with hammers and polearms). The Battle Cleric can work decently as off-tank and the Devoted Cleric is a nice controller and debuffer. The rogue class feature is based around controlling the enemy: as such the rogue is a decent off-controller.
Imho there are very few "pure" classes: one of them is surely the ranger, which is only a striker (but it's the best striker in the game, hands down).
I think that the game will be move towards this direction: each character has a role, but it makes it work in different ways.
St. Augustinus
GW2 did it and it works like this. If you are level 80 and you goto a level 10-15 map. You are lowered to level 15. Now this make content playable as not a easy walk threw with tones of gery con mobs. Also when high level players come in the area to get the map done, they are not cake walking the content with low level players not being able to join in. This video talks about it...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Zn81sY7pqI
I'm sorry, but having played gw2, this is not completely true. While you won't wave through mobs, you'll deal substantially more damage to them than you do at low level. Doing AC at level 30 is a thing, doing it al level 80 is another.
St. Augustinus
Ya I agree, I miss the holy trinity in GW2. What I was asking for in my post was that not all content require it. In DnD you didnt need to make sure your team had the healer, tank and DPS to get all content done. It helped but for small adventures it was not needed. I hope NW adds 2-3 man content that does not need the holy trinity to get done but has a higher reward then standard solo content. I find it a blast when 2-3 random strangers in a MMO say "Hay wana try and take that random boss?" In EQ1 back in the day, rare spawn bosses and Hill Giants were just such outlets. I would like to see NW take a hard look at that type of content.