Since it seems you missed the source I quoted before, I picked up another book ingoogle and here it says again on page 600 column 2:
And if you really do care you will find more of these examples of Drows and Trows.
Also, Drow is just an alternative form for trow, by the way. And plural of Trow is also Trows. Just saying...
EDIT:
Now that I have searched it already, let me put another source: book
Page 118: last poem -
Have you heard? The priest flown off-
Off the hillocks, out of howes
Swarmthe demons and the drows
Black and ugly, big and little
Ugghh How fierce they cut and cuff
...
And this probably is from where the idea of drow came. (As the source listed on wikipedia with (purportedly) Gary's statement doesn't have any drows).
I could have listed more, but I need to go to office now and start my day but as I have said, plural of drow is drows.
All you have said may be accurate BUT in DnD there is no plural for it, Drow is both. The obscure origins of the word really are not relevant for the Neverwinter wiki are they ?
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited June 2012
"Drow" may be an alternate spelling of a real world mythical creature known as "Trow" in our real world here, in another language besides English. In Dungeons & Dragons however, they are not. Please do understand the difference for if you really want to go there and call them by their true original name, then we should be calling them the "Ssri'Tel-Quessir" instead, as they are known in old elvish.
As fictional beings of a fictional world, that we call Abeir-Toril here on our world of Earth in our English language, they are simply "drow," both singular and plural. The wiki is not a work of non-fictional history and myth, nor is it in Scottish, or any other language besides English that may have variances on how plurality is handled.
Regardless of the origin of the name for the drow species, there is no usage of it as "drows" in any official Dungeons & Dragons publication that I own or have read. It is this that I am trying to convey as to my reasoning for the word to be used in the same consistent manner, as it is in Dungeons & Dragons. If we were to use it with an "s," then we would be breaking such consistency.
Ladies, gentleman, including the great scholars of the realm...
"Drows" has been used as the plural form of drow sporadically in the literary world. Gillrmn is technically correct.
However, the dictionary I checked was a Chambers dictionary 1972 edition (well before Gary wrote his stuff) and lists the word DROW as coming from mythology, specifically from the Shetland islands area and has it meaning a troll-like monster, which, given the wide meaning of the 'troll' term prior to widespread RPGs, just basically means a nasty monster, which would allow it to cover the 'dark elf' as well. Gary Gygax/TSR borrowed the word DROW and created his monster, and used the word in all literature printed at the time as singular and plural... as has every author, including RA Salvatore, since this time.
Since every licensed D&D computer game has also used Drow as singular and plural, I believe, whether it was intended or not, due to common usage of the last 40+ years, we need to continue that tradition or risk confusion of the masses.
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2012
when speaking about the real world sightings of mythical creatures, Drows is a rare but acceptable variant. When speaking in D&D terms, Drow is both singular and plural.
Thanks.
We could really use some help in Regions page for the missing lore if you have time and can help out. It is theoretical and does not depend on launch date.
My writing skills are not that good, if I read three lines, they end up being one line when I write. So if you are a good writer you can write that lore in a better flowery language... or dark language post spellplague - whichever is more appropriate.
We definately need better writeup for vallindra and vellosk. possibly with pics from game trailer.
Regarding drows, I understand that and leave it to editors. I was just replying to my RP friend aavarius that it was not grammer but usage which has change the drows to drow.
... As to "Drows," there are plenty of words that require no modification to pluralize them, like "fish." Unfortunately, nouns don't necessarily follow a uniform pluralization rule, and "Drow" has been very consistently plural and singular in D&D products throughout the years.
So I thought I would share some background on the actual word.
I leave it to editors to look into stuff like this. Maybe zeb can move the explaination for drows/drow to trivia for clarity or do what he(?) thinks is best. I just wanted to share information that drows is actually correct according to word roots. Ofcourse english itself has changed over years and many words now called correct would be laughed at a century before (OK - oll korrect comes to mind).
0
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
Regarding drows, I understand that and leave it to editors. I was just replying to my RP friend aavarius that it was not grammer but usage which has change the drows to drow.
So I thought I would share some background on the actual word.
I leave it to editors to look into stuff like this. Maybe zeb can move the explaination for drows/drow to trivia for clarity or do what he(?) thinks is best. I just wanted to share information that drows is actually correct according to word roots. Ofcourse english itself has changed over years and many words now called correct would be laughed at a century before (OK - oll korrect comes to mind).
Background is fine but to try and change consistency and traditional use through out Dungeons & Dragons' entire history, is not. I have moved the paragraph in question down into the Trivia section, it needs now some citations as well as will probably need to be totally re-written to not give the impression that it is a factual part of "D&D Drow History."
While I was editing this, I decided to get out my Drow of the Underdark and Menzoberranzan Boxed Set again and do a bit of fact-checking and updated several areas of the Drow page. Racial names would now appear to need their own section or subsection within the lore sections for each Race, as these are more facts and lore than they are Trivia. I'll let whoever has been updating the layouts figure out where best to place this, for now I've edited the Drow's as is.
I'll also get out my Elves of Evermeet book and my Cormanthyr and Myth Drannor Boxed Sets and do some checking/updating to the Elves page later today. I also own the Arcane Age boxed set (and a slew of other 2nd edition FR source books/sets all the way back to the original Forgotten Realms boxed set), which will be great for any back-history on Netheril - but these won't help with any current state of things, just now as historical records.
Thanks we need as much updates and as much info as possible to clear the doubts of new-comer and introduce them to their answers of their questions. Also, please take care to keep it well-organised so that those who visit only for well-known info (like traits, numbers, stats) don't find it hard to fish. Best would be to create as many sub-pages as possible but that can be done at later stage also. Also I would recommend to keep it as close to 4e as possible.
Background is fine but to try and change consistency and traditional use through out Dungeons & Dragons' entire history, is not.
...
Regarding drows
I have consistently maintained the position that drows is the correct form and drow is the form mostly used by d&d publication. This fact I post before in some other thread some weeks back too.
And I have never stopped anyone using drow for plural. I still say that drow, drows or even drowes is an acceptable plural of the word. Because that is actually the fact with solid reasoning behind each. What I will always protest against is people saying that drows is wrong because it is not.
Also, more info on it for interested: The old dictionary don't say that drow were trolls, but trolls, elves, drows, fairy etc. are all fairy world creatures. In old legends elves used to be the size of Robin bird(which ever that is, i am assuming it was small) while fairy had wings even though they were the same size. Trolls were also small creatures made of stone who became unmovable when exposed to sunshine. They were also evil but also were dangerous as they could crush a child unknowingly just out of curiosity. Dark elves were drows and called so because they had a deal with devil and were evil. Though Elves were also pranksters, they were not evil.
Elves in D&D 4e have become more closer to real elves as they are merry and enjoy life. Though they are also a bit Tolkien because of their size near to human, dexterity and foos-nahshim-ssa kind of names. They took the unclean version of trolls as there is also a version which says trolls eat humans after cooking them (The one used in Hobbiton).
Regarding drows, I am not sure regarding only this part, but it seems that Gary misquoted the source only thing Gary borrowed was - 1) Name, 2) Midnight colored Skin, 3) That they were evil and 4) That they made pact with devil and were enslaved by 'Devil's contract'. Rest everything, height, name, culture, eye color etc. were made up by Gary.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited June 2012
It doesn't matter what our real world myths say, the fact is that the Drow of Dungeons & Dragons are a work of fiction and has never, not once, been oficially used as "drows" in any TSR or WotC publication. That is the fact that I, and others, have been trying to convey to you. If this wiki was based off of Scottish folk-lore and mythology, then yes, Drows and Trows would indeed be correct usage. The fact of the matter is that this wiki is based off of Dungeons & Dragons and tradition, consistency and history of the usage of the word in Dungeons & Dragons would indeed suggest that using "drows" is incorrect.
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2012
And that is why I restated my earlier post link and the wiki support of drow plural in the D&D world.
Grammatically it is not wrong to saw drows, but in the D&D world itself, it is. I even provided a site SHOWING the plural of drow was drow in D&D. Agree to disagree, fine, but until we see a plural of drow is drows in D&D-produced lore and/or officials who made/are currently working on the D&D race, it will be supported as drow here and elsewhere in D&D.
It has gone long enough, so lets seal away this long episode on english grammer and stuff.
*Prepares a ritual*
!!!SEALING!!!
*Seals the evil away*
there there, all good now
Now back to wiki, I won't be there for a few days these week due to buisness related travel. I won't thus be able to help with wiki. I will try to drop in at odd hours to make a snide or humour comment, but I don't expect anything useful or helpful coming to my brain when I work.
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2012
While I have no problem with polishing writing for content, the wiki sometimes acts strangely when it comes to physical placement. Hopefully that won't be an issue with text only and is only mixed text/graphics. But I might not have the time to sit down and divert time for said writing for a few days. I'll see if I can find supported content and base writing develop-required background areas.
zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
edited June 2012
Sorry, no historical content additions happening from me tonight and probably tomorrow for I just got out of the ER from chest pains. So, I need to take it easy and take these potassium supplements to see if the pains are being caused by my low, 3.3 potassium level. I'll do what I can editing wise still though, just not tonight as I am still pretty out there on the morphine they gave me.
Sorry, no historical content additions happening from me tonight and probably tomorrow for I just got out of the ER from chest pains. So, I need to take it easy and take these potassium supplements to see if the pains are being caused by my low, 3.3 potassium level. I'll do what I can editing wise still though, just not tonight as I am still pretty out there on the morphine they gave me.
In my prayers for a speedy recovery Zebular. I've been to the ER myself, for an allergic reaction to a drug that caused my heart rate to speed up. Quite scary stuff.
Have rest, smile, and most importantly, here's to the best of health!
In my prayers for a speedy recovery Zebular. I've been to the ER myself, for an allergic reaction to a drug that caused my heart rate to speed up. Quite scary stuff.
Have rest, smile, and most importantly, here's to the best of health!
Sorry, no historical content additions happening from me tonight and probably tomorrow for I just got out of the ER from chest pains. So, I need to take it easy and take these potassium supplements to see if the pains are being caused by my low, 3.3 potassium level. I'll do what I can editing wise still though, just not tonight as I am still pretty out there on the morphine they gave me.
Wish you a speedy recovery Zeb. Health is most important. Any other stuff can always wait!
Please take care and concentrate on recovery :-)
I sneaked in late at night to correct some tid-bits. Drow trivia was corrected and linked. Also all the names now have a section in culture for races named: Acceptable names for Role Play.
The name is a bit lame so it would be nice if someone can come up with better. At first I was thinking - "Example for racially appropriate names for Role Playing" but it was too long and a bit unacceptable. Cultural names also doesn't seem appropriate.
So AnfRP is holding the title unless someone suggests a better one.
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
I sneaked in late at night to correct some tid-bits. Drow trivia was corrected and linked. Also all the names now have a section in culture for races named: Acceptable names for Role Play.
The name is a bit lame so it would be nice if someone can come up with better. At first I was thinking - "Example for racially appropriate names for Role Playing" but it was too long and a bit unacceptable. Cultural names also doesn't seem appropriate.
So AnfRP is holding the title unless someone suggests a better one.
Updated regions - Helm's Hold. I thought putting role of werewolves and rohini's schemes in there would be good as vellosk is in the trailer.
"Traditional role-playing names"
That heading is still quite long and still does not intend to convey that those names are just examples or guides and not the only ones. I am still hoping for a shorter heading.
Probably something like "Cultural names samples" but it still sounds a bit cheesy(?)...
Hey- Priestess Ralph does not take kindly to insults! She and her drider buddies hunt down folks for making fun of her and her mate Terry. Don't you know that people DIE from Dissing Terry?
*dragged away by over-sized hook*
0
iamtruthseekerMember, Moonstars, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 0Arc User
edited June 2012
heh, funny vindevereauxx. You can also call it traditional [race] names like traditional elf names and traditional dwarf names or swap traditional with common for common elf names or common dwarf names etc.
avet85Member, Neverwinter Beta UsersPosts: 6Arc User
edited June 2012
Hi! I have been reading this post, and I
am willing to participate in bringing it to max. I have played D&D for
15 years, and can help in uploading data and lore. In http://neverwintergame.wikia.com there is many posts yet to be
written. I would like this project to be wonderful place for all who
need information on NeverWinter. I don't have expirience in web
design, but I'm very informed on the lore and rules of play, classes,
reaces, etc.
Comments
All you have said may be accurate BUT in DnD there is no plural for it, Drow is both. The obscure origins of the word really are not relevant for the Neverwinter wiki are they ?
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
As fictional beings of a fictional world, that we call Abeir-Toril here on our world of Earth in our English language, they are simply "drow," both singular and plural. The wiki is not a work of non-fictional history and myth, nor is it in Scottish, or any other language besides English that may have variances on how plurality is handled.
Regardless of the origin of the name for the drow species, there is no usage of it as "drows" in any official Dungeons & Dragons publication that I own or have read. It is this that I am trying to convey as to my reasoning for the word to be used in the same consistent manner, as it is in Dungeons & Dragons. If we were to use it with an "s," then we would be breaking such consistency.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
"Drows" has been used as the plural form of drow sporadically in the literary world. Gillrmn is technically correct.
However, the dictionary I checked was a Chambers dictionary 1972 edition (well before Gary wrote his stuff) and lists the word DROW as coming from mythology, specifically from the Shetland islands area and has it meaning a troll-like monster, which, given the wide meaning of the 'troll' term prior to widespread RPGs, just basically means a nasty monster, which would allow it to cover the 'dark elf' as well. Gary Gygax/TSR borrowed the word DROW and created his monster, and used the word in all literature printed at the time as singular and plural... as has every author, including RA Salvatore, since this time.
Since every licensed D&D computer game has also used Drow as singular and plural, I believe, whether it was intended or not, due to common usage of the last 40+ years, we need to continue that tradition or risk confusion of the masses.
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
That same source, will also reference Tyr, which is of course partly where our guild got its name
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
I already had this discussion on this thread, starting on page two, post 15, if you wish to skip ahead.
http://neverwintergame.wikia.com/wiki/Neverwinter_Wiki
Great work!
Thanks.
We could really use some help in Regions page for the missing lore if you have time and can help out. It is theoretical and does not depend on launch date.
My writing skills are not that good, if I read three lines, they end up being one line when I write. So if you are a good writer you can write that lore in a better flowery language... or dark language post spellplague - whichever is more appropriate.
We definately need better writeup for vallindra and vellosk. possibly with pics from game trailer.
So I thought I would share some background on the actual word.
I leave it to editors to look into stuff like this. Maybe zeb can move the explaination for drows/drow to trivia for clarity or do what he(?) thinks is best. I just wanted to share information that drows is actually correct according to word roots. Ofcourse english itself has changed over years and many words now called correct would be laughed at a century before (OK - oll korrect comes to mind).
Background is fine but to try and change consistency and traditional use through out Dungeons & Dragons' entire history, is not. I have moved the paragraph in question down into the Trivia section, it needs now some citations as well as will probably need to be totally re-written to not give the impression that it is a factual part of "D&D Drow History."
While I was editing this, I decided to get out my Drow of the Underdark and Menzoberranzan Boxed Set again and do a bit of fact-checking and updated several areas of the Drow page. Racial names would now appear to need their own section or subsection within the lore sections for each Race, as these are more facts and lore than they are Trivia. I'll let whoever has been updating the layouts figure out where best to place this, for now I've edited the Drow's as is.
I'll also get out my Elves of Evermeet book and my Cormanthyr and Myth Drannor Boxed Sets and do some checking/updating to the Elves page later today. I also own the Arcane Age boxed set (and a slew of other 2nd edition FR source books/sets all the way back to the original Forgotten Realms boxed set), which will be great for any back-history on Netheril - but these won't help with any current state of things, just now as historical records.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
Regarding drows
I have consistently maintained the position that drows is the correct form and drow is the form mostly used by d&d publication. This fact I post before in some other thread some weeks back too.
And I have never stopped anyone using drow for plural. I still say that drow, drows or even drowes is an acceptable plural of the word. Because that is actually the fact with solid reasoning behind each. What I will always protest against is people saying that drows is wrong because it is not.
Also, more info on it for interested: The old dictionary don't say that drow were trolls, but trolls, elves, drows, fairy etc. are all fairy world creatures. In old legends elves used to be the size of Robin bird(which ever that is, i am assuming it was small) while fairy had wings even though they were the same size. Trolls were also small creatures made of stone who became unmovable when exposed to sunshine. They were also evil but also were dangerous as they could crush a child unknowingly just out of curiosity. Dark elves were drows and called so because they had a deal with devil and were evil. Though Elves were also pranksters, they were not evil.
Elves in D&D 4e have become more closer to real elves as they are merry and enjoy life. Though they are also a bit Tolkien because of their size near to human, dexterity and foos-nah shim-ssa kind of names. They took the unclean version of trolls as there is also a version which says trolls eat humans after cooking them (The one used in Hobbiton).
Regarding drows, I am not sure regarding only this part, but it seems that Gary misquoted the source only thing Gary borrowed was - 1) Name, 2) Midnight colored Skin, 3) That they were evil and 4) That they made pact with devil and were enslaved by 'Devil's contract'. Rest everything, height, name, culture, eye color etc. were made up by Gary.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
Grammatically it is not wrong to saw drows, but in the D&D world itself, it is. I even provided a site SHOWING the plural of drow was drow in D&D. Agree to disagree, fine, but until we see a plural of drow is drows in D&D-produced lore and/or officials who made/are currently working on the D&D race, it will be supported as drow here and elsewhere in D&D.
*Prepares a ritual*
!!!SEALING!!!
*Seals the evil away*
there there, all good now
Now back to wiki, I won't be there for a few days these week due to buisness related travel. I won't thus be able to help with wiki. I will try to drop in at odd hours to make a snide or humour comment, but I don't expect anything useful or helpful coming to my brain when I work.
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
In my prayers for a speedy recovery Zebular. I've been to the ER myself, for an allergic reaction to a drug that caused my heart rate to speed up. Quite scary stuff.
Have rest, smile, and most importantly, here's to the best of health!
TYRS PALADIUM - A Premier Neverwinter Online Guild
No Drama. Camaraderie. TEAM Focus. That's the TYRS way. If that's your style, come join us!
Research our Guild here: Read our official Recruitment thread | Sign up here: Tyrs Guild Website! | NEVERWINTER GUILD LEADERS: Join the Fellowship!
[ Support Center • Rules & Policies and Guidelines • ARC ToS • Guild Recruitment Guidelines | FR DM Since 1993 ]
Nice work on the wiki all, it's looking good so far.
Neverwinter Thieves Guild
@Effreet in game
Terms of Service and Rules of Conduct. Learn them, Love them
Wish you a speedy recovery Zeb. Health is most important. Any other stuff can always wait!
Please take care and concentrate on recovery :-)
The name is a bit lame so it would be nice if someone can come up with better. At first I was thinking - "Example for racially appropriate names for Role Playing" but it was too long and a bit unacceptable. Cultural names also doesn't seem appropriate.
So AnfRP is holding the title unless someone suggests a better one.
Why not "Traditional role-playing names?"
"Traditional role-playing names"
That heading is still quite long and still does not intend to convey that those names are just examples or guides and not the only ones. I am still hoping for a shorter heading.
Probably something like "Cultural names samples" but it still sounds a bit cheesy(?)...
"[race] Naming Conventions" : Drow Naming Conventions, Tiefling Naming Conventions, etc.
This could allow for giving examples of how to create a new name that is appropriate for RP, instead of just listing names
Or
"Traditional [race] Names" perhaps?
Basically a name generator that has some basic parameters that will give examples of names appropriate for races and gender.
The way I always come up with names of toons is to generate names 'til one sticks out then change it around by adding letters or taking some away.
*dragged away by over-sized hook*
am willing to participate in bringing it to max. I have played D&D for
15 years, and can help in uploading data and lore. In
http://neverwintergame.wikia.com there is many posts yet to be
written. I would like this project to be wonderful place for all who
need information on NeverWinter. I don't have expirience in web
design, but I'm very informed on the lore and rules of play, classes,
reaces, etc.
Fell free to contact me for anything.
don't know much about how to add it but that would help a lot
ex: