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OFFICIAL: Refinement Changes

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  • stark760stark760 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 654 Arc User
    The price of Mark of potency rank 4 dropping to under 15k, cheaper than can be bought from from bazaar w/ discount this week and max vip. People are unsure if there will be a turn in for old marks, which are still sold, and on discount right now. The enchanting stones from dread ring are also dropping quickly. These were currency that many built up over years. Please announce if there is going a turn in, or what the plan is with things that are going to be made useless, or used a fraction of what they were before. Showing the lower usage, or not having a place at all, and not letting people know what they are going to get in return for this, is causing prices on live server to tank.
  • arcanjo86arcanjo86 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,093 Arc User

    Feedback :
    This is going to be kept as short and clear as possible.

    Overall, I don't see the change to refinement bad. In the end, we do end up with more stats in terms of offensive and defensive enchantments... Or rather, we would.

    1. Currently blue enchants which we use to replace our rank 15s in total give less ratings than 8x Assassin's and cost to upgrade even one is massive, unless...

    2. Motes. We have no info on those. Are there going to be different ranks of motes? Because it's like deciding between 1% and 100% chance, where 1% chance costs, once again, much more than the guarantee, further inflating the 100% mote's price.

    3. Combat enchantment. It's absolutely the worst. No combined rating for a very minimal upgrade. Yes, minimal. Players have to account for 5k loss (with mythic combat enchant) in defensive, offensive and utility ratings. That means DPS players definitely lose 5k in all defensive ratings with zero compensation (HP is not a compensation) and 5% total from whatever their forte is providing. Before we at least had resistances from Fireburst or Barkshield... maybe even negation, now those were taken away.

    What about scaled instances in this scenario? Some players will have barely same offensive ratings, with an augment, and while their HP will be scaled down, their defenses will also remain unchanged.

    Once again, Combined rating is needed. We are at 75k item level on average now and look how my defensive ratings look like:
    image

    This is in fact a 5% loss in defensive stats compared to live that I just can't cover up. 10% more HP won't work for 25% defensive stats loss.


    Edit:

    To make it clearer on what I mean by loss of ratings rank 15s. Yes, we do gain item level... but again, it's a combined rating loss. It can be disregarded in terms of offensive/defensive enchantments.
    Bonus enchantment which provides 15% speed at maximum rank is only providing 60% of what we used to gain at max rank if we choose movement speed though.



    have you tried the right augment companion with the right stats for you? fighting companion got nerfed to the ground when you loose the companion rune slots to add stats, the new enchantments combined rating values seem to low
  • geminisky59#9345 geminisky59 Member Posts: 80 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    tgwolf said:

    The new meta will be to create a single set of enchants + alternates and transfer them from character to character as you play.

    Annoying, yes. But a lot less costly overall.

    All 12 of my characters have their own enchants. The only thing I used to move was the bondings after they made that free. The only things I move now are comp gear w/runes and collars.
    They should also do the same thing with mount insignias and collars.
  • rockster#6227 rockster Member Posts: 1,860 Arc User
    More deletions. I guess my soulforged is gone now? Also deleting the choices regarding off/def combos.
    Apparently pointing-out the bleeding obvious is a 'personal attack'.
  • thomasschwandathomasschwanda Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    So what you are saying is all out rank 9s are now useless in this new money grab? So the r9 barkshield, bronzewood and elven battle i got on my alt tank, that i spend millions of AD to buy is now worthless? Thank you once again for destroying our toons. And yes we get about 5k more IL, but the stats can't keep up so we actually drop in stats. 4k IL for a combat encantment? Come on man. And once again or defense seems to drop even more for dps. Im 60k now and spend hours of grunding and some money on Zen to get 15 myth insignia to balance the stats perfectly, and now we are screwed again. You dont even put all max rank enchantments out to grab and test on preveiw so we can actually see what to aim for at end game. You are getting so greedy i understand ppl are leaving the game, and Im pretty close to join them.
  • thomasschwandathomasschwanda Member Posts: 11 Arc User
    > @arazith07 said:
    > As it is on live now, rank 9s are super cheap anyways and basically useless now. I suspect that the new rank 1s will be just as ubiquitous. You really aren't losing anything as a new player by refining old low rank enchants and getting the new ones. You are trying to apply value that hasn't had value in years.

    Well my barkshield, bronzewood and elvenbattle r9s are not cheap. I spent millions on those on my little tank i was building up to play other than dps. Those are now worth 0!
  • slohcin13#7963 slohcin13 Member Posts: 18 Arc User
    I have seen a few posts about wards being consumed. My understanding is that you use wards to protect any portion that you want to protect and a ward on each warded material is consumed on failure. So having two wards in protects two of the three slots, meaning both wards disappear on failure in addition to the third slots cost being used because it was not warded. If you have one ward in, then you lose on ward and the material for the other two slots. Not sure why y'all think they would have multiple ward slots and only consume a ward from one slot on failure....
  • lordmelchett#1830 lordmelchett Member Posts: 38 Arc User

    I have seen a few posts about wards being consumed. My understanding is that you use wards to protect any portion that you want to protect and a ward on each warded material is consumed on failure. So having two wards in protects two of the three slots, meaning both wards disappear on failure in addition to the third slots cost being used because it was not warded. If you have one ward in, then you lose on ward and the material for the other two slots. Not sure why y'all think they would have multiple ward slots and only consume a ward from one slot on failure....

    That's because it doesn't make sense...
    In the current system you use 1 ward to protect multiple resources.
    In this new system it actually burns wards for protecting nothing.

    Each attempt to upgrade should not burn more than 1 ward since it can only burn only 1 resource.
  • fritz#8093 fritz Member Posts: 439 Arc User

    That's because it doesn't make sense...
    In the current system you use 1 ward to protect multiple resources.
    In this new system it actually burns wards for protecting nothing.

    Each attempt to upgrade should not burn more than 1 ward since it can only burn only 1 resource.

    Oh wow this is major. Depending on the drop rates of Motes you are probably going to use Coals for Enchantments most of the time anyway, but spending more Pres Wards as well is ugly.
  • fritz#8093 fritz Member Posts: 439 Arc User

    Will the new r1 enchants be in the lockboxes?

    In that case they will be dirt cheap like r9's in a few months and all alts can actually get an upgrade from enchants at a low price.

    Not sure it has to be lockboxes, but there should be a way to obtain entry level enchantments (maybe even Rank 0 item level 100 or whatever) from sources within the game. Mostly thinking Adventure Rewards here.
  • slohcin13#7963 slohcin13 Member Posts: 18 Arc User
    For actual feedback:

    As a whole I don't see many issues with the new system for our higher-end toons (other than the loss of ratings when using the enchants with iL but no combine rating). At present there are only single-stat enchant equivalents, so it is logical that the iL from those will be more spread to all 15 ratings than the targeted stats people are wanting from the multi-stat enchants people are using. I suspect the multi-stats will eventually get covered as well based on comments about these being only a starting point.

    For weapon/armor to one combat; while I would appreciate having an offensive and defensive option, a tank doesn't actually need offensive, and a good dps that knows how to dodge and stay out of the red does not typically need a defensive (although it is nice). As a rogue main, I rarely take damage except when there is no dodging it (like multiple attacks in ToMM). That being said, Lightning and Vorpal are heavily used currently and I feel should be available in the new system. I use a lightning for mob aggro-grabbing on my tank, and vorpal is my healer's go-to. I do like that they added the DR bonus to the defensive combat enchants, to mirror the damage boost on the offensives.

    For alts (and more concerningly for newer players) that only have low-level enchants, there is an issue. If they don't have rank 9s, they are likely better off spending the 900k AD to purchase the off/def/util enchants from the Sage Shop at rank 1. This will keep them at the same iL. Keep in mind that new characters get a few thousand AD just running levelling content and low campaigns, to help boost their AD. The rank 9s are practically worthless now and I feel should not be given any trade value ... they are easily obtained and most of us just convert or donate them to guild coffers anyways, and if you're hoarding something worthless then you don't need to get value from something that essentially has none now. The exchange rates for other enchants should be modified to more closely reflect the iL, because a toon with just Rank 10s cannot even buy a single new enchant. I think a more fair exchange rate would be:


    R15 - 20
    R14 - 17
    R13 - 14
    R12 - 11
    R11 - 8
    R10 - 5
    R9 or lower - RP


    This would give the ability to get at least half of ones iL back without discounting the amount of work and effort we have all put into our R15s.


    I like the idea of allowing us to set aside some enchants as "Account-wide", but I feel it should be limited. You should only be able to make the R1 and R2 account-wide, and while they should be upgradeable the RCA version should not be upgraded. It would also need to be tested to ensure that you can only claim one per toon per account-wide enchant.

    As for MoPs, some form of trade would be nice, but not at the full WB price (since many of the people buying bunches bought as a gamble, and at a 40% discount between VIP and sale. I feel 50% of WB value is sufficient trade-in for MoPs. I do feel that this change should have hit preview before the sale, since it would have impacted what people bought. Sales that are impacted by changes should really be analyzed when deciding when to release the change information, and I feel this was a major failing on your part (and so soon after you did the same thing with Mastercraft maps during a GM discount).
  • fritz#8093 fritz Member Posts: 439 Arc User
    tamtoucan said:

    Some maths (hopefully I've got this correct). Assumptions
    1. Assume VIP12
    2. Bazaar sale prices
    3. Have all Enchanting Stones and RP from normal gameplay
    4. Have a R7 weapon/armour enchantment at 0 cost

    To upgrade a R7 to R15 = 30xMop4, 25xMop5, 25xMop6 = 4.8million

    Which just so happens to be the cost of 120 medallions which you get from trading in a R14 weapon/armour.

    HOWEVER, that does not include the cost of Coalescent wards. The Zen store prices theese at 800 Zen (20% discont) = 600k AD So that's 600k * 7 Coals for R7->R14. Which is another 4.2million AD

    When people are complaining about the "Marks of Potency" problem.....this is why.

    Was thinking about upgrading some Enchants in preparation of the new system, but I don't think it makes any sense. Just trading in what you have and buy the rest with AD (exchange, Sage Shop) is almost always the better option. Or buy Enchants from the AH, which already have adjusted to the 40k per medallion exchange rate.
  • fritz#8093 fritz Member Posts: 439 Arc User

    For alts (and more concerningly for newer players) that only have low-level enchants, there is an issue. If they don't have rank 9s, they are likely better off spending the 900k AD to purchase the off/def/util enchants from the Sage Shop at rank 1. This will keep them at the same iL. Keep in mind that new characters get a few thousand AD just running levelling content and low campaigns, to help boost their AD. The rank 9s are practically worthless now and I feel should not be given any trade value ... they are easily obtained and most of us just convert or donate them to guild coffers anyways, and if you're hoarding something worthless then you don't need to get value from something that essentially has none now. The exchange rates for other enchants should be modified to more closely reflect the iL, because a toon with just Rank 10s cannot even buy a single new enchant. I think a more fair exchange rate would be:


    R15 - 20
    R14 - 17
    R13 - 14
    R12 - 11
    R11 - 8
    R10 - 5
    R9 or lower - RP


    This would give the ability to get at least half of ones iL back without discounting the amount of work and effort we have all put into our R15s.


    I like the idea of allowing us to set aside some enchants as "Account-wide", but I feel it should be limited. You should only be able to make the R1 and R2 account-wide, and while they should be upgradeable the RCA version should not be upgraded. It would also need to be tested to ensure that you can only claim one per toon per account-wide enchant.

    As for MoPs, some form of trade would be nice, but not at the full WB price (since many of the people buying bunches bought as a gamble, and at a 40% discount between VIP and sale. I feel 50% of WB value is sufficient trade-in for MoPs. I do feel that this change should have hit preview before the sale, since it would have impacted what people bought. Sales that are impacted by changes should really be analyzed when deciding when to release the change information, and I feel this was a major failing on your part (and so soon after you did the same thing with Mastercraft maps during a GM discount).

    I posted about how you have to "invest" way more item level at the exchange on lower levels as well and am very supportive of this idea.

    Wouldn't hold my breath about MoP. Back in the day the already devalued MoPs once (I think by 50% or sth) and never even cared to respond to the playerbase about it.
  • jules#6770 jules Member Posts: 709 Arc User
    edited December 2021
    Everybody playing rn: You mad Masochists
    tgwolf said:

    The new meta will be to create a single set of enchants + alternates and transfer them from character to character as you play.

    Annoying, yes. But a lot less costly overall.

    The meta of running alts has died with changing from salvage/toon to salvage/acc imo. It wasn't good to have many toons for a while, I guess. When I started playing it was good to have 50 toons+, but lately (or until I stopped playing) people that went for endgame (not that I would know) didnt tinker with too many toons if they didn't want to spend 24/7 on this show
    In theory, this would be nice - but they change the meta of enchs way too often for this to be cool

    More deletions. I guess my soulforged is gone now? Also deleting the choices regarding off/def combos.

    Did SF even work properly :D
    - bye bye -
  • azeldh1234azeldh1234 Member Posts: 9 Arc User

    Refinement and Enchantments are undergoing some big changes. We read the feedback on enchantments not being meaningful enough in terms of item level and stats, and how the unslot cost was a tedious aspect of changing gear. We also had a wide variety of enchantments, but many were hardly used. We took that feedback and data, looked at the refinement system, and made changes we are excited to share with you.

    No More Unslot Cost
    In the new refinement system there is no more unslot cost for enchantments. In fact, there are no more enchantment slots on gear. Instead, players now have an enhancement page on their character sheet. Add and remove enchants from this page with no cost.

    The enchantment page has the following enchantment slots:
    4x Offense Enchantments
    4x Defense Enchantments
    1x Utility Enchantment
    1x Bonus Enchantment
    1x Combat Enchantment
    2x Overload Enchantments
    And on the Companion sheet you will find a slot for a Companion Enchantment

    With these new slots come all new enchantments with higher item levels and some new options. There are 5 ranks to the new enchantments. Existing enchantments can be exchanged for the new enchantments at the antiquities dealer.

    There is only one type of companion enchant with this change. It will increase companion damage or if it is an augment companion, it will increase the value of the bonus stats from that companion.

    Exchange Rates

    Enchant/Runestone Rank / Exchange Currency
    15 20
    14 12
    13 8
    12 4
    11 2
    10 1

    Weapon + Armor Enchants
    14 120
    13 80
    12 50
    11 30
    10 20

    Exchange Cost
    New Enchantment Choice Pack Cost
    All Enchantments - Rank 1 30
    All Enchantments - Rank 2 60
    Combat/Companion – Rank 3 90
    Combat/Companion – Rank 4 120

    The current item level of a rank 15 enchant on live is 200. A rank 2 enchantment in the new system is 600 Item Level which is why it takes 3 rank 15s to convert into a rank 2.

    Don’t have a lot of high level enchantments lying around to exchange? Not a problem! You can also buy the exchange currency directly with AD to get a head start on the new enchantments.



    Preservation and Coal Wards

    Preservation wards in the new system are the same items they’ve always been, but they are used slightly differently than before which we will discuss in the next section.

    Coalescent Wards have a new icon and are now called Coalescent Motes, but are also the same items they were before and work in the same way.

    There are new Motes as well which when used will add their percentage bonus to the chance of success. These motes increase the chance by 1%, 2%, 5%, 10%. The lowest tier can be bought in the refinement sage shop in PE. The other tiers can drop in dungeon end chests.


    New Upgrade UI
    With these changes we also reworked the upgrade UI. In the past we had several different upgrade UIs depending on the item being upgraded and what items it turned into. We have combined all of this into a single UI that is universal to all items.


    Each upgrade will have up to 3 components, each of which can be protected by a preservation ward. If the upgrade fails, 1 of the components is chosen at random to be destroyed, unless it is protected by a preservation ward which will get destroyed instead.

    There is a percentage chance of success and a mote can be slotted to increase that chance, with a coalescent mote still raising the chance to 100%.

    With this system there is no longer partial refinement point filling of an item. All of the refinement points are needed upfront and it goes directly into a chance to upgrade. Existing items with partial refinement points in them will have the refinement points refunded to the owner on login with these changes. If you are at max refinement points of 50,000,000 then you will need to spend some of that ahead of the update to receive the refunds.

    Artifacts/Artifact Equipment
    If every item is now using the same refinement window, what does that mean for artifacts and artifact equipment?
    These items are no longer upgraded by ranks and instead are upgraded in full quality tiers each time. Some items received an item level increase during this change over.

    Weapon/Armor Enchant Effects
    With these changes we have separated weapon and armor enchant effects from the enchantments. Instead we have added new slots to the appearance tab where you can slot both a weapon and an armor visual effect.
    Exchanging existing armor and weapon enchantments will also give you one of these matching effect items so you both have the visuals you had access to before and have new flexibility in how your character looks.


    Will I have to figure this all out before I can play again?
    We realize changes of this size can be disruptive and may even feel overwhelming at first. To help with this and to let people play as they normally would when the update goes live, characters will get temporary enchantments equipped automatically. These enchantment have the item level of rank 4 in the new system and give a range of balanced stats. They last 7 days before disappearing, at which point you’d want to have exchanged your old enchants for new ones to take their place.



    With this release to preview work is still ongoing and some things may not function as intended or may still have adjustments to values before going live.

    We welcome all feedback and bug reports.

    Refinement and Enchantments are undergoing some big changes. We read the feedback on enchantments not being meaningful enough in terms of item level and stats, and how the unslot cost was a tedious aspect of changing gear. We also had a wide variety of enchantments, but many were hardly used. We took that feedback and data, looked at the refinement system, and made changes we are excited to share with you.

    No More Unslot Cost
    In the new refinement system there is no more unslot cost for enchantments. In fact, there are no more enchantment slots on gear. Instead, players now have an enhancement page on their character sheet. Add and remove enchants from this page with no cost.

    The enchantment page has the following enchantment slots:
    4x Offense Enchantments
    4x Defense Enchantments
    1x Utility Enchantment
    1x Bonus Enchantment
    1x Combat Enchantment
    2x Overload Enchantments
    And on the Companion sheet you will find a slot for a Companion Enchantment

    With these new slots come all new enchantments with higher item levels and some new options. There are 5 ranks to the new enchantments. Existing enchantments can be exchanged for the new enchantments at the antiquities dealer.

    There is only one type of companion enchant with this change. It will increase companion damage or if it is an augment companion, it will increase the value of the bonus stats from that companion.

    Exchange Rates

    Enchant/Runestone Rank / Exchange Currency
    15 20
    14 12
    13 8
    12 4
    11 2
    10 1

    Weapon + Armor Enchants
    14 120
    13 80
    12 50
    11 30
    10 20

    Exchange Cost
    New Enchantment Choice Pack Cost
    All Enchantments - Rank 1 30
    All Enchantments - Rank 2 60
    Combat/Companion – Rank 3 90
    Combat/Companion – Rank 4 120

    The current item level of a rank 15 enchant on live is 200. A rank 2 enchantment in the new system is 600 Item Level which is why it takes 3 rank 15s to convert into a rank 2.

    Don’t have a lot of high level enchantments lying around to exchange? Not a problem! You can also buy the exchange currency directly with AD to get a head start on the new enchantments.



    Preservation and Coal Wards

    Preservation wards in the new system are the same items they’ve always been, but they are used slightly differently than before which we will discuss in the next section.

    Coalescent Wards have a new icon and are now called Coalescent Motes, but are also the same items they were before and work in the same way.

    There are new Motes as well which when used will add their percentage bonus to the chance of success. These motes increase the chance by 1%, 2%, 5%, 10%. The lowest tier can be bought in the refinement sage shop in PE. The other tiers can drop in dungeon end chests.


    New Upgrade UI
    With these changes we also reworked the upgrade UI. In the past we had several different upgrade UIs depending on the item being upgraded and what items it turned into. We have combined all of this into a single UI that is universal to all items.


    Each upgrade will have up to 3 components, each of which can be protected by a preservation ward. If the upgrade fails, 1 of the components is chosen at random to be destroyed, unless it is protected by a preservation ward which will get destroyed instead.

    There is a percentage chance of success and a mote can be slotted to increase that chance, with a coalescent mote still raising the chance to 100%.

    With this system there is no longer partial refinement point filling of an item. All of the refinement points are needed upfront and it goes directly into a chance to upgrade. Existing items with partial refinement points in them will have the refinement points refunded to the owner on login with these changes. If you are at max refinement points of 50,000,000 then you will need to spend some of that ahead of the update to receive the refunds.

    Artifacts/Artifact Equipment
    If every item is now using the same refinement window, what does that mean for artifacts and artifact equipment?
    These items are no longer upgraded by ranks and instead are upgraded in full quality tiers each time. Some items received an item level increase during this change over.

    Weapon/Armor Enchant Effects
    With these changes we have separated weapon and armor enchant effects from the enchantments. Instead we have added new slots to the appearance tab where you can slot both a weapon and an armor visual effect.
    Exchanging existing armor and weapon enchantments will also give you one of these matching effect items so you both have the visuals you had access to before and have new flexibility in how your character looks.


    Will I have to figure this all out before I can play again?
    We realize changes of this size can be disruptive and may even feel overwhelming at first. To help with this and to let people play as they normally would when the update goes live, characters will get temporary enchantments equipped automatically. These enchantment have the item level of rank 4 in the new system and give a range of balanced stats. They last 7 days before disappearing, at which point you’d want to have exchanged your old enchants for new ones to take their place.



    With this release to preview work is still ongoing and some things may not function as intended or may still have adjustments to values before going live.

    We welcome all feedback and bug reports.
    how did u even come up with this idea.... did u even consider the player experience ,, his hard work, his time and his energy up to this level.. let me remind you if u really want money focus on improving the game rather than making it even worse. we understand this is a money game and u guys are greedy enough to think straight.. oh and btw today's RC is bugged .. if u even care about player feedback..

  • powerpuff#6508 powerpuff Member Posts: 212 Arc User
    Why does a preservation ward continue to be called a ward while a coalescent ward is renamed to a mote?
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