Thanks for the feedback. We are aware of the concern here both as devs and players (100 boxes for me so far and no weapon). I personally am not a fan of double negative RNG and we will be reviewing.
Chris, what many of us are wondering is, why is the bad implemented RNG always only reviewed and corrected? By now, you Devs have so many, many examples where the RNG part was utter garbage, why do you repeat that same mistake over and over again? Why don't you review the way/the template you implement RNG and change that?
Make some rules for your developers/game designers, the most important would be: no multiple RNG! Not even double RNG! Make it not a rule, make it the 11th commandment! (Edit: just noticed that @burnthedead#7732 wrote something similar.)
I was lucky enough to only open 183 ornate boxes to get a dented rod, it reminded me of trying to get the epic kayak that took fishing over 840 maps in a bottle. Getting gear hunting rare mobs that take 40+ hours to drop the gear was super awesome too, just not as much "fun" as running IG all day every day for 4 weeks just to get a ring for my comp. Or even farming for underdark comp rings every day non stop for 2 mods, though I never got my +5. Who can forget shadowstalker rings, farming on 6 alts every day for 4 months to get 1.
Who wants to run dungeons, trials or enjoy content anyways. Wow, I just can't wait to hunt maps that rarely drop themselves with more exceptionally low chance drop rates within them, it just sounds so great......
Now I'm just looking forward to when they decide to add in a rare mob, that has a 1% drop rate for a map, that has a 1% rate on a material, that has a 1% success rate on crafting next, oh boy o boy that sounds groovy.
I am a rare poster here but have been playing since early 2013. I came back to play with lockdown and have been here hardcore now for 6 months. I do put money into the game at a sub level to make sure the company is being funded for giving me entertainment. I stay because I am in an amazing, highly active guild with some great payers - not all old, endgamers, but many newer, hard-working players who are fun to be with.
I had to post today to add to my frustration with the map issue, the current development philosophy and the way in which this manifests.
On top of the double rng with the maps, there is a third layer. There are instances where maps never drop. Either this is a bug or there is a deliberately placed cap on maps per instance.
The first weekend I farmed 10 hours for 8 maps. I got extremely lucky and got the mainhand on the 5th map from the second hour. I then quit as I was mindnumbed with the grind. Second weekend, after the patch, I tried again. 8 hours, 6 maps. Nothing I needed as I already had excess hammers/scraps. This weekend I went again, as guildies were telling me they were getting up more; one was getting 15/hour. Saturday: 8 hours, 6 maps. Then I was told some instances were map free, so kill 5 mobs, if no map, change instance. This I did and eventually got 6 maps in 30 minutes. It drops stopped so I changed, but was unable to find another dropping instance. Sunday I got a 4/5 maps from casual farming between other activities.
This is not fun. This is not worthwhile. This is disappointing given the ambition and concept behind the mod. The map is great and the concept of blood war should be an interesting one. It still is broken as the bosses turn up when they fancy, or not at all this weekend in some instances, and not according to WAI. Once you do have the rings and the weapons, what then for this? We nearly have the boons - I spend 30-45 minutes a week doing enough quests to fill the cap and like with mod 18, will never return once I have the last boon except to get key currency.
Why create mods with built in obsolescence? I still go to DR, Shar, IWD & WoD every week. The dragon run is my favourite content in the game outside running raids with guildies. I never go to Bar, RD, Chult, UM or Val unless it is for legacies or key currency or to help friends. AD farming is pointless - I add an excess of rAD of over 1m/month without trying. There are no rewards to sell or use left in those zones. I was farming Chult hunts for the Chain, but when the Forger's Box came out, that was pointless. I ran Expeditions to the max for the Staff, then it flooded from the new lockbox.
New mods keep killing the most interesting old content. Who does that?
Here is what I have to add by way of suggestions.
Fix the bugs. We don't need new content as much as we need existing content to remain enjoyable, worthwhile and reliably WAI. (Why CR - long and no rewards of value and the final boss can still bug and void the whole effort. Great dungeon in design, pointless in existence.)
Build for longevity. Dragon runs, demonic HEs are still massively popular as they are a lot of fun and give rewards players need or can AH. The SOMI bottles were massively worth farming for sellables and useful resources until later mods killed them. No other maps are - even if you need currency for the campaign which is doubly puzzling.
Make sure rng based rewards are fair to all players and if you are unlucky, or have the main prize, there is still something useful drops. The design of the insurgency boss drops was changed as it was unfair, but then reused in mod 19. Why? UM is a good example. The rng on Alabasters is right - not fast but guaranteed if you keep running. The option for burnished in the store works as a choice for players, and the BIS gear is in the raids for those who really want to chase it. Lomm is a great example of a fun, challenging dungeon that rewards practice and managing mechanics. IT is a good length, at 30 mins for a proficient team and the chance of a good gear or companion drop makes it worthy of a daily.
Stop rushing content out. I can't name a single mod that arrived on live without the same bugs that were unresolved on preview. Some committed players take time to test and report on issues, but I question why they bother if those issues aren't corrected before launch.
Use group content and reward it effectively. Insurgencies were a great idea - the whole player base working together for a short time - but, like stronghold content, why would I take part now I have my rods? Could there not be something in the store I might want if I completed enough of them? Maybe run this over time so the group content always rewards the same token that can be used to buy current bis items. If I kill Bel/Mog/Garyx X times, shouldn't I be able to buy my offhand if that is what I want most just now? Group content breeds player loyalty more than anything else - dragonflights showed that as we always logged in on time so we didn't let our friends down.
Use the players better. The Foundry was a weekly for me - one session playing content, one learning to build it - as it gave some of the best maps and storytelling this game has known. Some players are just amazing content creators and they are all free, adding value to the game. Old players help the new ones, so they are more likely to stay in game.
We know this is a business, but that business is in providing escapist entertainment and a socially vibrant environment. It should be making a good profit given the age and size of playerbase, but obvious cash grabs will only plug the holes for so long. There are many other options asking for our time and money.
I know there is a partnership on the go, but the forum has been here for years giving a pretty clear and consistent view on what would improve our gaming. Maybe this is more than a PR manipulation and will bring results, but the game has no long term future on PC unless there is change to ensure its financial viability so it is hard to CDP seriously given that player feedback on QoL from the preview shard has long been ignored.
We are not just players, we are customers. Any business that fails to deliver to it's customers will crash. Look how Skype lost out to new kid Zoom. We love this game, we want to stay and play. Stop fighting us when you need to work with us to ensure we have reason to invest our time and money in your business.
I don't mind the rarity of maps but I would like to see the weapons maybe have a cumulative chance of dropping. Let's say if you open 200 boxes, that on box 200 it's 100% chance of getting the weapon....
Also, if you have one piece of the legion set, by all means fix it so only the other piece drops.
I have no problems having to earn rewards by working hard.. but a few hundred maps seems very excessive given the reward.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,150Arc User
Yeah, well, I'd like to see a lot more maps than the piddling amount I've had in my characters' hands so far.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
Thanks for the feedback. We are aware of the concern here both as devs and players (100 boxes for me so far and no weapon). I personally am not a fan of double negative RNG and we will be reviewing.
That's great to hear, @cwhitesidedev#9752 - I must admit I am pleasantly surprised to even see a response.... hopefully, there will be an improvement at some point. However, my complaint is not about the Avernus treasure maps or RNG as such, but rather the issue of when a low random chance is a proper thing to use....and fixing that is not a matter of tweaking some numbers in a drop table, but more of a general policy change.
To clarify:
I am absolutely fine with aggressive RNG when you have an alternative, like grinding for AD and buying the item in question. An example of that is something like a 0.05% chance of a legendary mount drop from a a lockbox. If you get one, great, if you don't ,you can make steady progress towards buying one.
I am also fine with with aggressive RNG for non-essential stuff - something like the Repentant dragon cultist. Yes, it is boring to farm it for years, but it is only something I wanted to fill a gap in my collection - it is not like not having it is making my character inferior in some way.
What I am *NOT* fine with is placing "essential" progression items behind a wall of low RNG ... even multiple layers of RNG.
Examples:
The dented metal rod from Alyssa's boxes. The whole point of the Rage of Bel is to get that box, and get it upgraded to mythic level. Not having the box is a clear (although small) disadvantage. The issue that people have is with a low drop chance of the rod, some people will struggle for a long time, fail to get the rod...maybe get so frustrated that they leave. I consider the rods to be an "essential progression item", and as such, it should not be hidden behind a RNG "wall" where you have no sense of progression.
Now, you could have done something like having the rod for sale for, say 1500 Infernal Secrets (although you would also need to increase the max# players can hold). Then you give players a choice - they can farm Bel for 28 days, and be guaranteed to be able to buy a rod, or take their chances opening boxes with a low drop rate. (And yes, regarding those boxes, you could have avoided much of the negative feedback, if you had made sure the boxes would not drop unusable character-bound stuff)
The treasure maps in Avernus feel a bit odd, as if there is some cooldown or limits to getting them to drop. Anyhow, it is easy enough to get 20-30 maps per day, but the only worthwhile items in the chests are some of the pants, and the Legion weapons - at least for those players who are still using Burnished or Alabaster weapons - again, the Legion weapons are an "essential progression item" for them - an upgrade which gives them a better chance at tackling harder content like ToMM or Zariel.
Sure, I realize there will be alternatives, like the "Blessed" weapons we heard about earlier, or maybe a masterwork crafted weapon set at some point - but that's not here and now for most people. You could for example have made the weapons available in the store for Canian Iron Bars (the time-limited campaign currency)....so if you have finished the campaign, and farmed the maps without success for a month or two, you should have accumulated enough bars to buy them. Again, an alternative, with a clear progression.
The point I am trying to make is basically that by taking away people's sense of progression, you take away a lot of the fun for many people. Many people are fine with a heavy grind - but you need to have a goal in sight and a sense of getting closer to that goal. I once decided to get all the "Slayer" titles. The hardest one was the cultists - I had to kill a total of 20.000 cultists for that, but yes, while it was tedious and boring, I could see my slow progress towards the final goal.
I guess what I am basically suggesting is a policy like:
When an essential progression item is hidden behind a RNG wall, give players an alternative - something with a slow, but clear progression towards the item.
(note: I'm not really active on the forum these days, but I saw my post had been tagged with a "dev response", so I could not resist commenting).
@adinosii it's easy enough to get 20 or 30 a day on maps? you sure about that? it sure hasn't been my experience. I spent 6 hours in that zone and got 1. I've spent about an hour in that zone a few other times and got zero. how long are you spending there farming for that many? and where and what are you farming?
I can't speak for others but I get 10 a hour on average. I look for low populated instances, clear the mobs and then go to another instance. I do not wait for the mobs to respawn. Sometimes the instance has 1 map, 2 maps or 0 maps... just clear and move.
I collect maps for a couple of days, then go open, so as not to waist farming time.
I can't speak for others but I get 10 a hour on average. I look for low populated instances, clear the mobs and then go to another instance. I do not wait for the mobs to respawn. Sometimes the instance has 1 map, 2 maps or 0 maps... just clear and move.
I collect maps for a couple of days, then go open, so as not to waist farming time.
ty I'll try that
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lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
Agree.
When the game seems to be designed to HAMSTER you off - not going to support it financially.
When the content is released broken and obvious mistakes from previous releases ignored and repeated (i.e. need to land killing blow or do the most damage to get a drop & a big FU to tanks and healers) - not going to support it financially.
Its not even a Pay Vs Play trade off here (which imo is fair), its just how much HAMSTER game play can we put up with.
There is some talk in the forums about taking on feedback and improving things, but I don't see anything in the actual game itself that indicates that the Dev team gives a HAMSTER about what it is like to play the game. Sometimes it's like the goal is to make it as frustrating as possible.
Understand that you can't just gift everyone the best weapon set, and there needs to be reward to those that grind away for hours, days weeks to obtain stuff. But the RNG within RNG and the likely chance that you could spend weeks / months grinding for nothing is not something that appeals to me, so - not going to support it financially.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
There will be an increased chance of getting the weapons when rolling for gear.
Rage of Bel
Dented Rod drop rate will be increased.
Now....what's this? Fixes to a number of issues? Whining actually works? Wonders never cease!
On a serious note - those issues will "fix" the issues players are having, but really, someone needs to consider the real underlying problem.
Here is what I think may be happening:
Someone, somewhere, is looking at a shiny little dashboard, displaying various graphs and information about the game and the players.
If the graph for "Zen purchases" shows a worrying downtrend, we get a surprise offer (like the 3x Legendary mount pack).
If the graph for "New player accounts created" shows a downtrend, we get some promo meant to draw new players in.
However, there is no graph for "Average player enjoyment" - obviously because that cannot be easily measured. So, someone came up with the "bright" idea of measuring average time players spend in the game per day. More fun, more time spent playing, right ? Well...not exactly
Dev1: As you can see from the graph, the average player is spending 47 minutes per day on the game, down from 56 minutes last year. Dev2: Indeed, this is a worrying trend. We really need to encourage them to play more. Dev3: Maybe they do not find the game fun...we should make the game more fun. Dev1: Not a good idea, Dev3. We cannot measure this mythical "fun". Dev2: I know - we will add some items that everyone will want, and then make sure they have to grind for a long time for a low chance of actually get the items. If they have to spend, say, a hundred hours on that, it should push the numbers up. Dev1: Brilliant idea, Dev1. I'll make sure you get credited with it in the next performance review. Dev3: But this isn't fun. If players had more fun, they would spend more time playing. Dev 1 Stop babbling about this "fun" You are spending too much time playing the game, and not enough looking at the numbers. If you want to keep your job, focus on the important things!
I'm pleased to see that the treasure chests thing has been addressed for players.
It hasn't been a positive gaming experience recently. Rage of Bel had all those bugs and system design issues, the 90 insurgencies I did without getting the rod I wanted was frustrating, and then when the new module launched and I was confronted with sudden healing changes, more RNG on RNG in the form of the treasure chests, more bugs and another trial which was accessible only to those in larger guilds, I just concluded that enough was enough.
I've been playing a different game recently and have only popped on once or twice to Neverwinter in the last few weeks to say hello to a few people. All gaming companies need to appreciate that if they don't provide fun and engaging content, then players will go elsewhere.
There will be an increased chance of getting the weapons when rolling for gear.
Rage of Bel
Dented Rod drop rate will be increased.
Now....what's this? Fixes to a number of issues? Whining actually works? Wonders never cease!
On a serious note - those issues will "fix" the issues players are having, but really, someone needs to consider the real underlying problem.
Here is what I think may be happening:
Someone, somewhere, is looking at a shiny little dashboard, displaying various graphs and information about the game and the players.
If the graph for "Zen purchases" shows a worrying downtrend, we get a surprise offer (like the 3x Legendary mount pack).
If the graph for "New player accounts created" shows a downtrend, we get some promo meant to draw new players in.
However, there is no graph for "Average player enjoyment" - obviously because that cannot be easily measured. So, someone came up with the "bright" idea of measuring average time players spend in the game per day. More fun, more time spent playing, right ? Well...not exactly
Dev1: As you can see from the graph, the average player is spending 47 minutes per day on the game, down from 56 minutes last year. Dev2: Indeed, this is a worrying trend. We really need to encourage them to play more. Dev3: Maybe they do not find the game fun...we should make the game more fun. Dev1: Not a good idea, Dev3. We cannot measure this mythical "fun". Dev2: I know - we will add some items that everyone will want, and then make sure they have to grind for a long time for a low chance of actually get the items. If they have to spend, say, a hundred hours on that, it should push the numbers up. Dev1: Brilliant idea, Dev1. I'll make sure you get credited with it in the next performance review. Dev3: But this isn't fun. If players had more fun, they would spend more time playing. Dev 1 Stop babbling about this "fun" You are spending too much time playing the game, and not enough looking at the numbers. If you want to keep your job, focus on the important things!
I hope I'm wrong, though.....
LMAO so CYNICAL... (but so true......)
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gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
There will be an increased chance of getting the weapons when rolling for gear.
Rage of Bel
Dented Rod drop rate will be increased.
Now....what's this? Fixes to a number of issues? Whining actually works? Wonders never cease!
On a serious note - those issues will "fix" the issues players are having, but really, someone needs to consider the real underlying problem.
Here is what I think may be happening:
Someone, somewhere, is looking at a shiny little dashboard, displaying various graphs and information about the game and the players.
If the graph for "Zen purchases" shows a worrying downtrend, we get a surprise offer (like the 3x Legendary mount pack).
If the graph for "New player accounts created" shows a downtrend, we get some promo meant to draw new players in.
However, there is no graph for "Average player enjoyment" - obviously because that cannot be easily measured. So, someone came up with the "bright" idea of measuring average time players spend in the game per day. More fun, more time spent playing, right ? Well...not exactly
Dev1: As you can see from the graph, the average player is spending 47 minutes per day on the game, down from 56 minutes last year. Dev2: Indeed, this is a worrying trend. We really need to encourage them to play more. Dev3: Maybe they do not find the game fun...we should make the game more fun. Dev1: Not a good idea, Dev3. We cannot measure this mythical "fun". Dev2: I know - we will add some items that everyone will want, and then make sure they have to grind for a long time for a low chance of actually get the items. If they have to spend, say, a hundred hours on that, it should push the numbers up. Dev1: Brilliant idea, Dev1. I'll make sure you get credited with it in the next performance review. Dev3: But this isn't fun. If players had more fun, they would spend more time playing. Dev 1 Stop babbling about this "fun" You are spending too much time playing the game, and not enough looking at the numbers. If you want to keep your job, focus on the important things!
I hope I'm wrong, though.....
I think you are pretty much spot on. Look at the poor state of all events, which were a big part of the fun before.
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
There will be an increased chance of getting the weapons when rolling for gear.
Rage of Bel
Dented Rod drop rate will be increased.
Now....what's this? Fixes to a number of issues? Whining actually works? Wonders never cease!
On a serious note - those issues will "fix" the issues players are having, but really, someone needs to consider the real underlying problem.
Here is what I think may be happening:
Someone, somewhere, is looking at a shiny little dashboard, displaying various graphs and information about the game and the players.
If the graph for "Zen purchases" shows a worrying downtrend, we get a surprise offer (like the 3x Legendary mount pack).
If the graph for "New player accounts created" shows a downtrend, we get some promo meant to draw new players in.
However, there is no graph for "Average player enjoyment" - obviously because that cannot be easily measured. So, someone came up with the "bright" idea of measuring average time players spend in the game per day. More fun, more time spent playing, right ? Well...not exactly
Dev1: As you can see from the graph, the average player is spending 47 minutes per day on the game, down from 56 minutes last year. Dev2: Indeed, this is a worrying trend. We really need to encourage them to play more. Dev3: Maybe they do not find the game fun...we should make the game more fun. Dev1: Not a good idea, Dev3. We cannot measure this mythical "fun". Dev2: I know - we will add some items that everyone will want, and then make sure they have to grind for a long time for a low chance of actually get the items. If they have to spend, say, a hundred hours on that, it should push the numbers up. Dev1: Brilliant idea, Dev1. I'll make sure you get credited with it in the next performance review. Dev3: But this isn't fun. If players had more fun, they would spend more time playing. Dev 1 Stop babbling about this "fun" You are spending too much time playing the game, and not enough looking at the numbers. If you want to keep your job, focus on the important things!
I hope I'm wrong, though.....
The dev example^^ seems about right...
I've long said (in game) that most of what we see or I should say, our 1st world hardships here in lovely NW are a result of metrics. How much complaining and offered solutions on here must people see to finally guess that they ACTUALLY get it. They know. I don't buy into them not understanding what low % on the rng will do to the community enjoyment. It's just a game they play and we've seen it a number of times. New launch, new stuff...whatever, same old story...drop rate too low, somethings bugged blah blah. Everyone stays tied up in the new areas trying grind for their new shiny thing and it helps squeeze out more time people are involved in a largely nothing mod.
Then people cry...offer solutions...the dev gods appear after enough has been offered( in tears), feel good words are delivered to the masses.They then receive praise because they were gracious enough to hear our shrieks of agony and suffering lol. "Oh ty great dev, for coming here and taking the time really show you are working on this!!!" Ty TY TY!
Then the rng relaxes a bit, people start to earn their shinies more easily and some, if not most, people begin putting away their pitchforks. Mission accomplished, devs offered feelgood "fixes", coming to the aid of the players just in the nick of time.
This hamster repeats itself a bit often I think. Couple months later, same thing will most likely happen again. The cycle continues.
With the scaling I hate running random dungeons. What used to be 10 mins to beat temple of spider or cragmire has turned into 30 or 40 yet the rewards are still purple gear that dont hold a candle to the FREE gear you get. Black opal as best reward when you spend that much time is insane. Fix the rewards even if you just plug in rank 5 enchanting stones. I can breeze thru tomb of the 9 gods with 2 people faster than a full group in earlier dungeons.
any chance these changes made it into TODAYS PATCH for PC?
It seems there is no patch nor reboot for PC today...
yeas i was hoping it would be today but i guess ill just wait logging back in till after patch
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louchristanMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 50Arc User
edited August 2020
After the patch today the drop rate of treasure maps seems average one map per 100 mobs and the chance of getting the weapon set is super easy compare to what was before. Unless you have very bad luck, you should be able to get the set after 50 maps. You may get 3 or 4 main hands or off hands first before you get the full set. If things remain the same, I would say everyone should be able to get the full set within 3 to 6 hours of farming. That is my own experience after doing it on three characters/toons with 29K IL. I had open about 300 maps since the start of mod. 19 and I did not cheat.
Post edited by louchristan on
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lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
first two treasure chests this morning - MH and OH, thank you.
LOL I had not noticed this thread till now. That's how much I've been hitting the forum lately. After reading the threads around the launch date, I decided to wait a month to start the campaign. After seeing the pitiful drop rate for the maps from just doing the quests, I had resigned myself to just get the boons and use the maps at the end. If I get the legion set, great. If not, I'm fine with the hellfire set. Now that it looks super easy to get the legion set, maybe I should use the few maps I have now before the devs decide it is too easy. It will save me the trouble of running HEs to restore the hellfire set.
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lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
LOL I had not noticed this thread till now. That's how much I've been hitting the forum lately. After reading the threads around the launch date, I decided to wait a month to start the campaign. After seeing the pitiful drop rate for the maps from just doing the quests, I had resigned myself to just get the boons and use the maps at the end. If I get the legion set, great. If not, I'm fine with the hellfire set. Now that it looks super easy to get the legion set, maybe I should use the few maps I have now before the devs decide it is too easy. It will save me the trouble of running HEs to restore the hellfire set.
I'd get them fast, I wouldn't be surprised to see it get nerfed again - I got 2 sets on two toons in approx 15-20 maps. Prior to the patch - maybe 100+ maps and got nothing. With this level of ease, every party will be running 5x legion set
imo they struggle to fine tune their RNG, its either drop rate is super rare or common, hard to get something in between
LOL I had not noticed this thread till now. That's how much I've been hitting the forum lately. After reading the threads around the launch date, I decided to wait a month to start the campaign. After seeing the pitiful drop rate for the maps from just doing the quests, I had resigned myself to just get the boons and use the maps at the end. If I get the legion set, great. If not, I'm fine with the hellfire set. Now that it looks super easy to get the legion set, maybe I should use the few maps I have now before the devs decide it is too easy. It will save me the trouble of running HEs to restore the hellfire set.
I'd get them fast, I wouldn't be surprised to see it get nerfed again - I got 2 sets on two toons in approx 15-20 maps. Prior to the patch - maybe 100+ maps and got nothing. With this level of ease, every party will be running 5x legion set
imo they struggle to fine tune their RNG, its either drop rate is super rare or common, hard to get something in between
Get em whilst the going is good
I went ahead and spent the whole weekend knocking this out on my five toons. It took 9, 10, 14, 18, and 31 maps (there is always that one toon that seem to be cursed when it comes to RNG). One toon I queued up for REQ as dps and got both pieces before the queue popped. LOL. This tweak is definitely kind of nuts. It will probably be dialed back.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
I went ahead and spent the whole weekend knocking this out on my five toons. It took 9, 10, 14, 18, and 31 maps (there is always that one toon that seem to be cursed when it comes to RNG).
That's...high. An average of 16,4 maps to get a set would mean a drop rate of 18.3% I think you were a bit lucky.
Hoping for improvements...
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louchristanMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 50Arc User
Just to update my own experience of drop rate. You still can get no map at all for an hour farming but you can also get more than 10 maps or more. The inconsistency is way too high to get any fun out of it even if you like RNG. Getting the Legion set is the same. Open more than 60 maps still not necessary get you the full set but you can also get the full set with just 5 maps. I don't have time to farm for more maps to see the better picture and I only did this because the game is so boring now that I try to find something different to do.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
Just to update my own experience of drop rate. You still can get no map at all for an hour farming but you can also get more than 10 maps or more.
It is almost as if some instances are "broken" in this respect. My advice is to go to some location like Haruman's Hill, start gilling the groups just inside the gate...if no maps have dropped within a couple of minutes, switch instances ....otherwise do a full round of the area and then switch instances. 20+ maps/hour easy.
Based on data I colleced, and information from guild mates and others, I am guessing the weapon drop rate went from 1% to 10%. This means that on the average people will get a set after using 30 maps instead of 300. It also means that some people can open 50+ maps without getting a set, but still...it's a big improvement. Maybe too big.... if the drop rate had initially been likd 3-5% we would have avoided the annoyance.
Will they keep up with the lower tier boons in future or may we expect a chance at top tier boons? Would running focused retaliation and blood lust be too complex a formula to prevent overpowering players? My selection of boon choices is becoming far less attractive, considering that I took all the previous boons chosen first, before these became available. As a penultimate prize, short of defeating Zarriel herself, the stats increases seem a little underwhelming.
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
Will they keep up with the lower tier boons in future or may we expect a chance at top tier boons? Would running focused retaliation and blood lust be too complex a formula to prevent overpowering players? My selection of boon choices is becoming far less attractive, considering that I took all the previous boons chosen first, before these became available. As a penultimate prize, short of defeating Zarriel herself, the stats increases seem a little underwhelming.
Did you post this in the wrong thread by any chance? This is totally irrelevant here.
Comments
Chris, what many of us are wondering is, why is the bad implemented RNG always only reviewed and corrected? By now, you Devs have so many, many examples where the RNG part was utter garbage, why do you repeat that same mistake over and over again? Why don't you review the way/the template you implement RNG and change that?
Make some rules for your developers/game designers, the most important would be: no multiple RNG! Not even double RNG! Make it not a rule, make it the 11th commandment! (Edit: just noticed that @burnthedead#7732 wrote something similar.)
Who wants to run dungeons, trials or enjoy content anyways. Wow, I just can't wait to hunt maps that rarely drop themselves with more exceptionally low chance drop rates within them, it just sounds so great......
Now I'm just looking forward to when they decide to add in a rare mob, that has a 1% drop rate for a map, that has a 1% rate on a material, that has a 1% success rate on crafting next, oh boy o boy that sounds groovy.
I had to post today to add to my frustration with the map issue, the current development philosophy and the way in which this manifests.
On top of the double rng with the maps, there is a third layer. There are instances where maps never drop. Either this is a bug or there is a deliberately placed cap on maps per instance.
The first weekend I farmed 10 hours for 8 maps. I got extremely lucky and got the mainhand on the 5th map from the second hour. I then quit as I was mindnumbed with the grind. Second weekend, after the patch, I tried again. 8 hours, 6 maps. Nothing I needed as I already had excess hammers/scraps. This weekend I went again, as guildies were telling me they were getting up more; one was getting 15/hour. Saturday: 8 hours, 6 maps. Then I was told some instances were map free, so kill 5 mobs, if no map, change instance. This I did and eventually got 6 maps in 30 minutes. It drops stopped so I changed, but was unable to find another dropping instance. Sunday I got a 4/5 maps from casual farming between other activities.
This is not fun. This is not worthwhile. This is disappointing given the ambition and concept behind the mod. The map is great and the concept of blood war should be an interesting one. It still is broken as the bosses turn up when they fancy, or not at all this weekend in some instances, and not according to WAI. Once you do have the rings and the weapons, what then for this? We nearly have the boons - I spend 30-45 minutes a week doing enough quests to fill the cap and like with mod 18, will never return once I have the last boon except to get key currency.
Why create mods with built in obsolescence? I still go to DR, Shar, IWD & WoD every week. The dragon run is my favourite content in the game outside running raids with guildies. I never go to Bar, RD, Chult, UM or Val unless it is for legacies or key currency or to help friends. AD farming is pointless - I add an excess of rAD of over 1m/month without trying. There are no rewards to sell or use left in those zones. I was farming Chult hunts for the Chain, but when the Forger's Box came out, that was pointless. I ran Expeditions to the max for the Staff, then it flooded from the new lockbox.
New mods keep killing the most interesting old content. Who does that?
Here is what I have to add by way of suggestions.
- Fix the bugs. We don't need new content as much as we need existing content to remain enjoyable, worthwhile and reliably WAI. (Why CR - long and no rewards of value and the final boss can still bug and void the whole effort. Great dungeon in design, pointless in existence.)
- Build for longevity. Dragon runs, demonic HEs are still massively popular as they are a lot of fun and give rewards players need or can AH. The SOMI bottles were massively worth farming for sellables and useful resources until later mods killed them. No other maps are - even if you need currency for the campaign which is doubly puzzling.
- Make sure rng based rewards are fair to all players and if you are unlucky, or have the main prize, there is still something useful drops. The design of the insurgency boss drops was changed as it was unfair, but then reused in mod 19. Why? UM is a good example. The rng on Alabasters is right - not fast but guaranteed if you keep running. The option for burnished in the store works as a choice for players, and the BIS gear is in the raids for those who really want to chase it. Lomm is a great example of a fun, challenging dungeon that rewards practice and managing mechanics. IT is a good length, at 30 mins for a proficient team and the chance of a good gear or companion drop makes it worthy of a daily.
- Stop rushing content out. I can't name a single mod that arrived on live without the same bugs that were unresolved on preview. Some committed players take time to test and report on issues, but I question why they bother if those issues aren't corrected before launch.
- Use group content and reward it effectively. Insurgencies were a great idea - the whole player base working together for a short time - but, like stronghold content, why would I take part now I have my rods? Could there not be something in the store I might want if I completed enough of them? Maybe run this over time so the group content always rewards the same token that can be used to buy current bis items. If I kill Bel/Mog/Garyx X times, shouldn't I be able to buy my offhand if that is what I want most just now? Group content breeds player loyalty more than anything else - dragonflights showed that as we always logged in on time so we didn't let our friends down.
- Use the players better. The Foundry was a weekly for me - one session playing content, one learning to build it - as it gave some of the best maps and storytelling this game has known. Some players are just amazing content creators and they are all free, adding value to the game. Old players help the new ones, so they are more likely to stay in game.
We know this is a business, but that business is in providing escapist entertainment and a socially vibrant environment. It should be making a good profit given the age and size of playerbase, but obvious cash grabs will only plug the holes for so long. There are many other options asking for our time and money.I know there is a partnership on the go, but the forum has been here for years giving a pretty clear and consistent view on what would improve our gaming. Maybe this is more than a PR manipulation and will bring results, but the game has no long term future on PC unless there is change to ensure its financial viability so it is hard to CDP seriously given that player feedback on QoL from the preview shard has long been ignored.
We are not just players, we are customers. Any business that fails to deliver to it's customers will crash. Look how Skype lost out to new kid Zoom. We love this game, we want to stay and play. Stop fighting us when you need to work with us to ensure we have reason to invest our time and money in your business.
Also, if you have one piece of the legion set, by all means fix it so only the other piece drops.
I have no problems having to earn rewards by working hard.. but a few hundred maps seems very excessive given the reward.
To clarify:
I am absolutely fine with aggressive RNG when you have an alternative, like grinding for AD and buying the item in question. An example of that is something like a 0.05% chance of a legendary mount drop from a a lockbox. If you get one, great, if you don't ,you can make steady progress towards buying one.
I am also fine with with aggressive RNG for non-essential stuff - something like the Repentant dragon cultist. Yes, it is boring to farm it for years, but it is only something I wanted to fill a gap in my collection - it is not like not having it is making my character inferior in some way.
What I am *NOT* fine with is placing "essential" progression items behind a wall of low RNG ... even multiple layers of RNG.
Examples:
The dented metal rod from Alyssa's boxes. The whole point of the Rage of Bel is to get that box, and get it upgraded to mythic level. Not having the box is a clear (although small) disadvantage. The issue that people have is with a low drop chance of the rod, some people will struggle for a long time, fail to get the rod...maybe get so frustrated that they leave. I consider the rods to be an "essential progression item", and as such, it should not be hidden behind a RNG "wall" where you have no sense of progression.
Now, you could have done something like having the rod for sale for, say 1500 Infernal Secrets (although you would also need to increase the max# players can hold). Then you give players a choice - they can farm Bel for 28 days, and be guaranteed to be able to buy a rod, or take their chances opening boxes with a low drop rate. (And yes, regarding those boxes, you could have avoided much of the negative feedback, if you had made sure the boxes would not drop unusable character-bound stuff)
The treasure maps in Avernus feel a bit odd, as if there is some cooldown or limits to getting them to drop. Anyhow, it is easy enough to get 20-30 maps per day, but the only worthwhile items in the chests are some of the pants, and the Legion weapons - at least for those players who are still using Burnished or Alabaster weapons - again, the Legion weapons are an "essential progression item" for them - an upgrade which gives them a better chance at tackling harder content like ToMM or Zariel.
Sure, I realize there will be alternatives, like the "Blessed" weapons we heard about earlier, or maybe a masterwork crafted weapon set at some point - but that's not here and now for most people. You could for example have made the weapons available in the store for Canian Iron Bars (the time-limited campaign currency)....so if you have finished the campaign, and farmed the maps without success for a month or two, you should have accumulated enough bars to buy them. Again, an alternative, with a clear progression.
The point I am trying to make is basically that by taking away people's sense of progression, you take away a lot of the fun for many people. Many people are fine with a heavy grind - but you need to have a goal in sight and a sense of getting closer to that goal. I once decided to get all the "Slayer" titles. The hardest one was the cultists - I had to kill a total of 20.000 cultists for that, but yes, while it was tedious and boring, I could see my slow progress towards the final goal.
I guess what I am basically suggesting is a policy like:
When an essential progression item is hidden behind a RNG wall, give players an alternative - something with a slow, but clear progression towards the item.
(note: I'm not really active on the forum these days, but I saw my post had been tagged with a "dev response", so I could not resist commenting).
I collect maps for a couple of days, then go open, so as not to waist farming time.
When the game seems to be designed to HAMSTER you off - not going to support it financially.
When the content is released broken and obvious mistakes from previous releases ignored and repeated (i.e. need to land killing blow or do the most damage to get a drop & a big FU to tanks and healers) - not going to support it financially.
Its not even a Pay Vs Play trade off here (which imo is fair), its just how much HAMSTER game play can we put up with.
There is some talk in the forums about taking on feedback and improving things, but I don't see anything in the actual game itself that indicates that the Dev team gives a HAMSTER about what it is like to play the game. Sometimes it's like the goal is to make it as frustrating as possible.
Understand that you can't just gift everyone the best weapon set, and there needs to be reward to those that grind away for hours, days weeks to obtain stuff. But the RNG within RNG and the likely chance that you could spend weeks / months grinding for nothing is not something that appeals to me, so - not going to support it financially.
On a serious note - those issues will "fix" the issues players are having, but really, someone needs to consider the real underlying problem.
Here is what I think may be happening:
Dev1: As you can see from the graph, the average player is spending 47 minutes per day on the game, down from 56 minutes last year.
Dev2: Indeed, this is a worrying trend. We really need to encourage them to play more.
Dev3: Maybe they do not find the game fun...we should make the game more fun.
Dev1: Not a good idea, Dev3. We cannot measure this mythical "fun".
Dev2: I know - we will add some items that everyone will want, and then make sure they have to grind for a long time for a low chance of actually get the items. If they have to spend, say, a hundred hours on that, it should push the numbers up.
Dev1: Brilliant idea, Dev1. I'll make sure you get credited with it in the next performance review.
Dev3: But this isn't fun. If players had more fun, they would spend more time playing.
Dev 1 Stop babbling about this "fun" You are spending too much time playing the game, and not enough looking at the numbers. If you want to keep your job, focus on the important things!
I hope I'm wrong, though.....
It hasn't been a positive gaming experience recently. Rage of Bel had all those bugs and system design issues, the 90 insurgencies I did without getting the rod I wanted was frustrating, and then when the new module launched and I was confronted with sudden healing changes, more RNG on RNG in the form of the treasure chests, more bugs and another trial which was accessible only to those in larger guilds, I just concluded that enough was enough.
I've been playing a different game recently and have only popped on once or twice to Neverwinter in the last few weeks to say hello to a few people. All gaming companies need to appreciate that if they don't provide fun and engaging content, then players will go elsewhere.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
I've long said (in game) that most of what we see or I should say, our 1st world hardships here in lovely NW are a result of metrics. How much complaining and offered solutions on here must people see to finally guess that they ACTUALLY get it. They know. I don't buy into them not understanding what low % on the rng will do to the community enjoyment. It's just a game they play and we've seen it a number of times. New launch, new stuff...whatever, same old story...drop rate too low, somethings bugged blah blah. Everyone stays tied up in the new areas trying grind for their new shiny thing and it helps squeeze out more time people are involved in a largely nothing mod.
Then people cry...offer solutions...the dev gods appear after enough has been offered( in tears), feel good words are delivered to the masses.They then receive praise because they were gracious enough to hear our shrieks of agony and suffering lol. "Oh ty great dev, for coming here and taking the time really show you are working on this!!!" Ty TY TY!
Then the rng relaxes a bit, people start to earn their shinies more easily and some, if not most, people begin putting away their pitchforks. Mission accomplished, devs offered feelgood "fixes", coming to the aid of the players just in the nick of time.
This hamster repeats itself a bit often I think. Couple months later, same thing will most likely happen again. The cycle continues.
Gone from nearly impossible to super easy
Now its too easy
Lots of boots, shirts, bracers and Hammers to start a shop.. no MH.
imo they struggle to fine tune their RNG, its either drop rate is super rare or common, hard to get something in between
Get em whilst the going is good
Based on data I colleced, and information from guild mates and others, I am guessing the weapon drop rate went from 1% to 10%. This means that on the average people will get a set after using 30 maps instead of 300. It also means that some people can open 50+ maps without getting a set, but still...it's a big improvement. Maybe too big.... if the drop rate had initially been likd 3-5% we would have avoided the annoyance.
Will they keep up with the lower tier boons in future or may we expect a chance at top tier boons?
Would running focused retaliation and blood lust be too complex a formula to prevent overpowering players? My selection of boon choices is becoming far less attractive, considering that I took all the previous boons chosen first, before these became available.
As a penultimate prize, short of defeating Zarriel herself, the stats increases seem a little underwhelming.