I will be the first person to say it. Might as well get the complain train going.
This trial needs better loot. ToMM rings are not a good enough incentive to continue running it after people have acquired their weapons. I suggest either new pet gear or something else otherwise the trial will be a failure.
I understand that some will consider a piece of content a failure if they are not encouraged to run it on repeat continually. However, we don't necessarily adhere to this same philosophy—particularly with very challenging content—it's okay if once you have the primary reward from the content you don't feel the compulsion to farm it continually. This is especially true because for some players, simply completing that content in the first place can be a monumental challenge.
However, we do appreciate the feedback, and are examining ways in the future we could provide ways to encourage more repeat play of challenging content for those so-inclined. The difficulty becomes that if those loops feel essential, they feel very punishing for those who cannot participate in that harder content. For now, we do hope that the power and status of having a superior weapon is something that can continue to feel good for tackling the most challenging content successfully.
With ToMM we at least had a shop with a chase item in there that felt a bit special. Why not work in that direction and make a shop where you can use the hilt to buy some of the very useful items, like epic mounts/companions, hellpit overloads, decent-size comp upgrade token packs, companion gear (maybe new/better?) etc.. Another idea if you don't want to add practical things to the store is to add new fashion and maybe new colors to the store. But make it desirable stuff.
We need more! The completion happiness feeling will grow old very soon and people won't be running the content anymore once they have what they need...
Plain and simple, loot needs to be changed. I for one dont understand why you wouldnt want to appeal to the replayability of the trial, as Rainer stated the "completion happiness" will disappear quickly. In its current state I see no reason why all endgame players shouldnt band together, get their weapons in a very short spam only to quit running the trial and go back to ToMM. Why run Zariel if ToMM, which is easier to complete, gives the same rewards? The biggest issue here is also, how will those players that didnt get in with the first wave of players complete Zariel? The longer the trial is available, the less endgamers will run it. Also just because this trial is not accessable to the whole playerbase does not mean that the rewards should be completely overlooked. There is another version of the trial coming as well, what rewards will that version have?
My suggestion for loot is either bound or unbound legendary companion gear or mythic rings. These are chase items, something to keep players busy and cause them to continously farm the content. Whether or not it is unbound is debateable although looking at ToMM I would say that the unbound gear dropping was a success and caused players to farm it even to this day.Is that not what the goal is here? To make a great piece of content that is challenging but also rewarding? There are numerous other items that would be desirable in the Zariel loottable. Transmutes always go well with players. How about getting Zariels burning halo or the blindfolds?
Give us more of an incentive to run the trial repeatedly, please.
sorry for the scuffed photoshop but i like putting in visual representations
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
I will be the first person to say it. Might as well get the complain train going.
This trial needs better loot. ToMM rings are not a good enough incentive to continue running it after people have acquired their weapons. I suggest either new pet gear or something else otherwise the trial will be a failure.
I understand that some will consider a piece of content a failure if they are not encouraged to run it on repeat continually. However, we don't necessarily adhere to this same philosophy—particularly with very challenging content—it's okay if once you have the primary reward from the content you don't feel the compulsion to farm it continually. This is especially true because for some players, simply completing that content in the first place can be a monumental challenge.
However, we do appreciate the feedback, and are examining ways in the future we could provide ways to encourage more repeat play of challenging content for those so-inclined. The difficulty becomes that if those loops feel essential, they feel very punishing for those who cannot participate in that harder content. For now, we do hope that the power and status of having a superior weapon is something that can continue to feel good for tackling the most challenging content successfully.
Yes, for some players it's a monumental challenge, and for some, to overcome it, it takes a lot of effort and time, training and so on.. In case of ToMM that was justifiable. Except the weapons, ToMM had the rings and artifact, which made ToMM viable to run for over half year after its release and much longer "shelf life" than IC.
No offense, but the EA'ish "The intent is to provide players with a sense of pride and accomplishment for unlocking different weapons." is just not good enough of a reason for those that will need more than a week (and more than a month and longer) to finish it.
Why I need the weapons to begin with? To do the story mode with them?
Looks like the proper way to do this content will be wait for the finishing groups to finish, get their weapon, and then get carried few times for the weapons, and be done with it? Or just skip it. Why bother learn it with a group, investing in HP, and all that... if its dead before it arrived... Finishing as a guild / group is great, and a motivation on its own, but the investment for those that do not aim to finish among the first groups just doesn't justify it on its own.
I will be the first person to say it. Might as well get the complain train going.
This trial needs better loot. ToMM rings are not a good enough incentive to continue running it after people have acquired their weapons. I suggest either new pet gear or something else otherwise the trial will be a failure.
I understand that some will consider a piece of content a failure if they are not encouraged to run it on repeat continually. However, we don't necessarily adhere to this same philosophy—particularly with very challenging content—it's okay if once you have the primary reward from the content you don't feel the compulsion to farm it continually. This is especially true because for some players, simply completing that content in the first place can be a monumental challenge.
However, we do appreciate the feedback, and are examining ways in the future we could provide ways to encourage more repeat play of challenging content for those so-inclined. The difficulty becomes that if those loops feel essential, they feel very punishing for those who cannot participate in that harder content. For now, we do hope that the power and status of having a superior weapon is something that can continue to feel good for tackling the most challenging content successfully.
so do i get this right? You put alot of effort into creating content with the intention of us running it for a week and then never looking at it again? If so, i dont want to be rude, but it looks like you wasted alot of developer time on this trial. Mod 19 just went from pretty good to rather borring for me . Can we expect the future of challenging content to stay with this philosophy? 1 Piece of challenging content every 2 mods, that keeps us busy for a month at most?
As someone who is not usually interested in PvE, TOMM was the first piece of content since old CN that I enjoyed. In fact, I spent about 2 months running it after the first few days of struggling -- mostly because of rewards.
The fun for me comes from playing with the group and learning together. Many groups are practicing on preview this time and the trial relies more on stat checks rather than skill checks (an entirely different topic, but I couldn't help myself). This means that the numbers you'll see on live will be horrible, as a lot of people, just like me, will come in there to pick up their weapons and barely ever touch it again.
With no rewards to keep players in longer term, the trial will be a failure and a waste of development time. Putting rewards in challenging content (TOMM) has definitely been one of your better ideas, as opposed to gating them behind horrible RNG (such as WE, FE, some of the rods in rage of Bel, demo rings, shadowstalker rings and many more sad examples). Please reconsider your approach to this issue.
I feel like this trial is a dangling carrot for new players, something to work towards, and not really aimed towards the endgamers that will actually run it. My question is.. why have this trial at all then? Why not just scrap it and have the easier version be the only version if the main focus is not to cater to endgamers? Why are we busting out behinds to get through the trial on preview when it honestly sounds like you dont want to address incentives and reasons to actually run the content in fear of excluding players that cant run it? Why not make the new weapons drop in the easy version so that everyone can get them then? More players will have access to the weapons and less players would be excluded, endgamers would have even less things to work towards but ultimately that might be what you want out of the loot? I wouldnt want it to be set up as such but I hope that you hear us out when it comes to this matter.
There will always be content and gear that only a certain group of players will be able to obtain, these are chase-items. Making content extremely new player-friendly is not the path that we want to go down, we want challenge and rewards, not one or the other. You want to inspect a person and go "Wow, I cant wait till I'm strong enough to obtain that gear".
*shrug*
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
If the issue is game economy "market control", first of all I've suggested an elegant solution for that in this very thread.
Second, and not great but still there are options like bta store that is updated per episode and offers what is under RNG in other aspects of the game. So players offered either get stuff via rng or finish the trial. Small consolation for those that have it all, but still more than just pride.
The parallel will be offering companion gear in ToMM store for scrolls of the void.
Rewards: I vote again for a NPC's store with useful or cosmetic things to buy, or a legendary box of pet gear choice after gaining enough angel's feathers or whatever. In addition, I think the trial should reward systematically 3-5 scrolls of life (BtA or not) to motivate people to repeat
Zariel doesn't speak at all when the game is set in another language than English. It is really annoying for the White noise mechanic. I understand that there is currently no dubbing from English to another language (because of covid delay). But in that case, you should have let the English langage vocals instead of nothing. If the dubbings are not made by the time of Zariel trial release, please think about including English language in all countries
For now, we do hope that the power and status of having a superior weapon is something that can continue to feel good for tackling the most challenging content successfully.
it costs millions and millions to gear up for this content. if there isn't some hope of making some of it back why go to the effort?
For the challenge, for the competition, because the content is enjoyable, to improve teamwork, to improve self, etc. etc. There are many different reasons for people to play the content. Not everyone plays to get richer.
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tassedethe13Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 806Arc User
I will be the first person to say it. Might as well get the complain train going.
This trial needs better loot. ToMM rings are not a good enough incentive to continue running it after people have acquired their weapons. I suggest either new pet gear or something else otherwise the trial will be a failure.
I understand that some will consider a piece of content a failure if they are not encouraged to run it on repeat continually. However, we don't necessarily adhere to this same philosophy—particularly with very challenging content—it's okay if once you have the primary reward from the content you don't feel the compulsion to farm it continually. This is especially true because for some players, simply completing that content in the first place can be a monumental challenge.
However, we do appreciate the feedback, and are examining ways in the future we could provide ways to encourage more repeat play of challenging content for those so-inclined. The difficulty becomes that if those loops feel essential, they feel very punishing for those who cannot participate in that harder content. For now, we do hope that the power and status of having a superior weapon is something that can continue to feel good for tackling the most challenging content successfully.
Soooo basically, you said that the goal of this trial is only to get weapon, and then stop running it ( like TIC failure ). what's the point of getting those weapons so ? To be the shiny one at the enclave ?
But more important, what's YOUR goal when you make content and you don't give people the will to play it ? I have seen so many people saying "new content ? naaah that's not worth the investissement"
it costs millions and millions to gear up for this content. if there isn't some hope of making some of it back why go to the effort?
For the challenge, for the competition, because the content is enjoyable, to improve teamwork, to improve self, etc. etc. There are many different reasons for people to play the content. Not everyone plays to get richer.
for challenge and completion you run it at the start. For fun and teamwork you run it once in a while. If there is no longterm incentive in terms of loot, most ppl will stop running it pretty fast. But it seems like thats the goal of the devs, they want the trial to be not played.
If that is really the Case what i said the in this Feedback Forum i dont see any pride Future for the Game since there will be No teachers Left for the Mid and Low Tier players since all Endgamer Players will Leave the game or will play only small portion of it. U need to Gear up your toon for at least 25m to 30 million AD from Tomm Status to Zariel Status on Current Status of Preview and i dont see any midgamer player or lower tier player will take there Time to Gear up For a Trial. Since they had at least from mod 17 enough time to Gear up for Tomm. "example i where yesterday in a Trainings run with almost only midgame players they had a 4hrs Tomm Trainigsrun wich i never seen that much dedication for training on this dungeon. I Think its nice to have something to Focus on and Training for then you have at least the intensive to play the game even more". I finished that run with those players after 2 more Trys and they where so happy it Felt so amazing to see players actualy have something that they grind for and getting progress on there toon. I run tomm now 1421 Times i counted every single Run since end of September where the Trial came out.
I would call it aswell the IC of The trials then, No Rewards No Good Weapons for every Class and that would excluded even more players to not particapate in the new Trial. I dont see a bright Future for the Game if that will be the Case what is said here.
well in a certain way it could make sense, if they upgrade it each new mod.
strong pleople will run it for the challenge until story mode, then we all will run it in story mode (probably with some minor differences in final drop, like no weaponsand no coin to buy weapons). when the time will come, the story mode can be put in the random queue without resuting in a mass drop from the instance in case it will pop, and the hard mode can still be played by those that want a challenge. hypotetically each new mod the story mode will remain unchanged (making it easier to complete) and the hard mode could be upgraded to the new end game level (creating a good way to test changes in build if needed, we would know the content, and how we poerformed before, we could see if we do better or worse).
a little like some used to do a 5 tr tong, 25 dc tiamat, etc, the trials will be challenges.
if not... then i agree that strong people will run it until they have the weapons, their friends and guild's menbers have the weapons, then they will probably be sick of it, and will never (voluntarily) do it again (for at least some time)
Transmutes always go well with players. How about getting Zariels burning halo or the blindfolds?
+1 for the Halo and Blindfolds, preferably as different slots so that both can be used together (let's say blindfolds as a head trasnmute and the halo as neck). Also, the new mount that can be seen on preview, "Celestial Wings", looks unfinished, but if the finished looks for this mount is actually a pair of wings similar to Zariel's, it could be a pretty decent reason for running the trial too (and an epic version could be added in its place for Redeemed Citadel, whatever that is).
I will be the first person to say it. Might as well get the complain train going.
This trial needs better loot. ToMM rings are not a good enough incentive to continue running it after people have acquired their weapons. I suggest either new pet gear or something else otherwise the trial will be a failure.
I understand that some will consider a piece of content a failure if they are not encouraged to run it on repeat continually. However, we don't necessarily adhere to this same philosophy—particularly with very challenging content—it's okay if once you have the primary reward from the content you don't feel the compulsion to farm it continually. This is especially true because for some players, simply completing that content in the first place can be a monumental challenge.
However, we do appreciate the feedback, and are examining ways in the future we could provide ways to encourage more repeat play of challenging content for those so-inclined. The difficulty becomes that if those loops feel essential, they feel very punishing for those who cannot participate in that harder content. For now, we do hope that the power and status of having a superior weapon is something that can continue to feel good for tackling the most challenging content successfully.
If you want to go the "just finishing it in itself is enough" route, then this trial needs to get ALOT harder. Im fine with bad loot, if its atleast so hard that i need to train for weeks/months to have a chance of beating it.
for challenge and completion you run it at the start. For fun and teamwork you run it once in a while. If there is no longterm incentive in terms of loot, most ppl will stop running it pretty fast. But it seems like thats the goal of the devs, they want the trial to be not played.
I don't see anything wrong with only running it once in a while. I'd rather run every content once in a while to get richer than to run the same one over and over again.
for challenge and completion you run it at the start. For fun and teamwork you run it once in a while. If there is no longterm incentive in terms of loot, most ppl will stop running it pretty fast. But it seems like thats the goal of the devs, they want the trial to be not played.
I don't see anything wrong with only running it once in a while. I'd rather run every content once in a while to get richer than to run the same one over and over again.
if there would be a variety of engaging endgame content i would agree, but i just dont see that in Neverwinter.
I understand that some will consider a piece of content a failure if they are not encouraged to run it on repeat continually. However, we don't necessarily adhere to this same philosophy—particularly with very challenging content—it's okay if once you have the primary reward from the content you don't feel the compulsion to farm it continually. This is especially true because for some players, simply completing that content in the first place can be a monumental challenge.
However, we do appreciate the feedback, and are examining ways in the future we could provide ways to encourage more repeat play of challenging content for those so-inclined. The difficulty becomes that if those loops feel essential, they feel very punishing for those who cannot participate in that harder content. For now, we do hope that the power and status of having a superior weapon is something that can continue to feel good for tackling the most challenging content successfully.
In every single trial that has came out in this game, you have always had weapons and other items to farm for once you have it. This has always worked, so I dont understand why you would now suddenly change this idea.
In Temple of Tiamat we were farming for linus favours. These bought the weapons and also used for campaign progression, to this day people still farm it for Linus to complete the campaign.
In Demogorgen we were farming for weapons, and also +5 rings which at the time were the only way to get them and were best in slot at the time. This gave people a reason to want to farm it over and over to get the best in slot rings.
In Assault on Svardborg we were farming for weapons, after this some people quit running as there was no other thing to farm. However this was after the dungeon key chest change / rework, and this was a trial where you could get at the time best in slot rings from FBI, it was faster to complete then FBI, and it has 3 chests which you could open for free by doing dailies, this was incentive for some people to continue farming it.
In Cradle of the Death God we were farming for weapons, Ostorian Tale Carving and Soulmonger Ampoule, to upgrade your weapons and armor. On top of this we also had Ultimate Enchanting Stones, which was needed by a lot of the community, so if it was to either sell or use for yourself, people had a reason to farm this, as this trial was faster then doing its dungeon counter part, Tomb of the Nine Gods.
In Tower of the Mad Mage we were farming for weapons, a artifact set which is best in slot for some endgame builds and characters, Enchanting Stones rank 6, and most importantly the "ToMM rings" (I guess we should change these name to level 80 trial rings). These rings were and still are best in slot. These rings were made unbound which is the only difference in this trial compared to the rest, this was a massive reason for people wanting to farm it, so they can make AD.
In Zariel's Challenge we are farming for weapons. That is it. The artifact set is not good, it needs to be reworked or it wont be used in endgame builds and characters. The only other rewards are ToMM rings. Which is different to the past when I compared MSVA to FBI, as MSVA was faster and more chests for chances of the ring. ZC is longer then ToMM and it has the same amount of chests, so if people want to farm for ToMM rings, why would they chose to do it in ZC? Also these rings are older rings from mod 17, when this is a trial for mod 19, with a new mod should come vertical progression, whereas we currently get no progression from this, not even horizontal.
If there isnt an incentive for endgame players to run it, then they wont run it. In ToMM after the first groups on preview beat it, they made guides and started to teach the community. They helped them to get their weapons and from there they could then help their friends and so on. If there isnt the players to start this chain, it will either never begin, or will come much later, and im not sure how appealing a new piece of content that nobody wants to run looks.
On top of this, the weapon is going to be best in slot, and this is the main incentive. It has higher weapon damage and therefore dps and healers will want to use it to deal more damage and heal for greater amounts. However the lionheart set has a bonus to tanking, which has no relation to weapon damage and the new set bonus doesnt have this. So if anything it will be a direct downgrade in terms of tankiness and survivability, which is the primary job as a tank.
For these reasons I believe the rewards from the trial should be changed. Reworking the set bonuses from both the weapon and artifact set, as well as adding something else for the players to want to farm. If it were even bound new best in slot rings or an upgrade to our existing rings, like +1 variants.
We know on the roadmap there is a new masterworks coming out. If it worked like how it used to and materials were adding into the dungeons for people to farm, then you could add a drop into ZC which would then give people the incentive to farm it. The drop from this trial could be used to make all masterwork weapons, that are also at the same item level as the ZC ones, but have a more appealing bonus. Meaning you could keep the set bonus as it is from the trial, knowing that there will be a more appealing one coming later (horizontal progression), as this wouldnt be at the launch of the trial and a month or 2 later. If you want to give everyone the chance to learn the mechanics and not make it so people who practise on preview have a advantage (just disable the trial on preview or limit the playtime similar to owlbear) then release the main farming item with masterwork, I wouldnt mind this, but it would also be nice to know this in advance. I think a few people think this will be the case, as it seems weird having nothing appealing for people to play for. However if masterwork comes out in a different way, players might feel like there has been a bait and switch. as otherwise as many have said it just feels like a waste of time, money and effort to learning this trial when after you beat it at most 40 times for your weapons, you wont want to enter again.
Considering we had a CDP on rewards, which is the first ever CDP we've had. And this is the first fresh new piece of content it could be applied to without retroactively going back and changing older contents rewards. It feels like the rewards have gotten worse, which is not a good sign.
While this doesn't effect me personally, as I am not in a position to meet the health requirements any time soon, I do think not having something else to aim for once the weapons have been gotten is a really bad idea. you spend 6months designing this place, to have the majority of the players who will be able to clear this practice it on the PTR, be able to come in and get the weapons in a few days on the live server, and then never have a reason to go there again.
Is there at least some hidden reward for a deathless run? something unique to the trial.
And while I am sure having something to farm to sell is appealing, I dunno what exactly is there for the players who already have more in game currency than they could possibly spend. This is more an open ended question to the players. If you are already sitting on 100s of millions of AD and enough zen to do whatever and buy whatever you want, what exactly is appealing about farming stuff to sell for a fraction of what you already have.
Honestly I Don't know, vanity stuff? transmogs? Mount skins, A new Throne? a unique title? ( though there are already about 200+ of Its not much of a statue symbol)
While I personally am not a big fan of time gated content, The restriction in TIC with the token drops to 3 per week was actually quite refreshing. Reminded me of raid lockouts which I never had a issue with in other games, and I always found it a bit odd being able to just spam the HAMSTER out of the dungeon/raid content in a day. But that's just me
Just like everyone that posted above, i will also come out and say what i think will happen with Zariel's Challenge:
While it is a very fun and challenging piece of content, there is no incentive to replay it after the first few times. The people that really want a challenge will complete it at first, get their satisfaction and then drop it, they won't host training runs for others, instead they will tell them "just go farm tomm it's easier and better". And since the trial is behind a campaign task, not many people will buy the release pack with the currency unless the other stuff in the pack is GOLD.
Also, please don't take this as dev bashing, it is my point of view and feel free to delete this if it's offensive:
In that post you are implying that you don't mind if people don't run your content on repeat (ahem, in an MMO), seriously, personally i'm really inclined to not believe you guys. I genuinely think some of the devs that worked on designing the arena and the mechanics (which are absolutely beautiful by the way) feel screwed over. I know for certain i would be PISSED if i pumped out a masterpiece and people were not interested in it.
Hello @asterdahl ! I apologise for being redundant and off topic on something, want just to add my perspective as well. With mod19 release, the only relevant content endgame-wise will be Zariel's challenge, because ToMM with lionheart upgrade will be a joke (6 dps runs in mod19 are going as fast and smooth as mod18 8 dps runs). With current standing, I would have to invest around 30mil (aka war triceratops for my warlock and fighter) to having an upgraded version of my weapons that I will likely benefit for Zariel's challenge only, then having to wait for around an year for another endgame content. That said, with current standing I would still play Zariel's challenge for "a sense of achievement" but I will do it on preview only, because the consumables/scrolls/time (and the 30mil ad above) aren't worth the effort. I don't even think it will be worth to help friends/guildies getting the weapons, it is way more efficient tell them to wait for one year for a new trial to be released and Zariel's challenge being put into oblivion like ToMM will in mod19. At last, I won't even queue for PvP, as the lionheart buff itself is adding even more powercreep (specific post will follow), making most of the fights like "oneshot or get oneshotted". TL;DR: I am not asking to become rich, but can I have a long-term endgame content to have fun without getting poor? Trying to be propositive: I like the upgraded gear suggestion, if lazy proposals are accepted as well, I would go for unbind weapons, changing the bonus for something more useful, same for the artifact set. Have a nice day!
I understand that some will consider a piece of content a failure if they are not encouraged to run it on repeat continually. However, we don't necessarily adhere to this same philosophy—particularly with very challenging content—it's okay if once you have the primary reward from the content you don't feel the compulsion to farm it continually. This is especially true because for some players, simply completing that content in the first place can be a monumental challenge.
However, we do appreciate the feedback, and are examining ways in the future we could provide ways to encourage more repeat play of challenging content for those so-inclined. The difficulty becomes that if those loops feel essential, they feel very punishing for those who cannot participate in that harder content. For now, we do hope that the power and status of having a superior weapon is something that can continue to feel good for tackling the most challenging content successfully.
Well on the one hand, a superior weapon is something very essential for progressing so thats a barrier for future content such as this trial where you wont get invited unless you have last trial weapons. Even now you wont get invited for most tomm's unless you have lionheart weapons (somehow a paradox). I already said this before on stardock module, endgame content should be arranged for 5 ppl groups, and use 10 ppl dungeons/trials for integrating newer ppl. Its easier for endgame people to arrange a group of 5 friends and coordinate better the trial. Plus item rewards should be things that you can get another way but would be better to farm them on the challenging content (such as rank 5 stones on codg, or add marks of potency, pres wards,etc to those coffers), or something sellable as were tomm rings (of course when everyone has them they would have no value but that is unavoidable). Lionhear weps and new weps are actually a barrier
I too agree that the "cost" of running a dungeon/trial should not be a net negative benefit. I harken back to when FBI was first released and after charging your armor etc with voninblood you would then be forced to spend hours farming more voninblood to recharge your armor, the dev's listened and the amount of voninblood that was given exceeded what was used in the dungeon. Having said that voninblood is not scrolls, nor is it AD, neither of which should be a requirement to enter or complete content which the Trial in its current configuration is exactly doing. Knowing that this is still in preview, and that there is still changes to come I reserve judgment. But the question has been raised that the main part of the modules are supposed to be about vertical progression, from what I can see one must take the whole module in the picture and not specifically speak about the Trial alone. Many of the other parts of the campaign offer vertical progression items that are superior to the drops(hunts) that will be in the Trial which I applaud. So maybe the solution is to allow these rings from Hunts to also have a chance to drop in the Trial, allowing the players a choice of how they want to play the game. Do hunts or do trial?
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gabrieldourdenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,212Arc User
I will be the first person to say it. Might as well get the complain train going.
This trial needs better loot. ToMM rings are not a good enough incentive to continue running it after people have acquired their weapons. I suggest either new pet gear or something else otherwise the trial will be a failure.
I understand that some will consider a piece of content a failure if they are not encouraged to run it on repeat continually. However, we don't necessarily adhere to this same philosophy—particularly with very challenging content—it's okay if once you have the primary reward from the content you don't feel the compulsion to farm it continually. This is especially true because for some players, simply completing that content in the first place can be a monumental challenge.
However, we do appreciate the feedback, and are examining ways in the future we could provide ways to encourage more repeat play of challenging content for those so-inclined. The difficulty becomes that if those loops feel essential, they feel very punishing for those who cannot participate in that harder content. For now, we do hope that the power and status of having a superior weapon is something that can continue to feel good for tackling the most challenging content successfully.
Fully agree with you. To be honest in the last mod there has been too much effort in providing content (and rewards) for endgamers and way less for more casual players. The top end dungeon/trial should feel like an achievement, not something you farm. Farmable stuff should be one step below.
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
I'm not going to write a super long response to the loot situation as many people have explained it better than I. Without good loot in the content, it won't be farmed. Why even spend so long making the content if you don't want to drive your playerbase to play it? Why would developers EVER want their content that is supposed to last a year (for a trial) to last for the bare minimum completions to get weapons?
ToMM was one of the most successful pieces of content this game has ever had in terms of bringing it to look like a serious MMO, with real raiding potential. If we hadn't already had the Idris Journal situation and then the rampant power of the Arbiter clerics that have made the ToMM rings so saturated in the game and now not worth running, then maybe it wouldn't have been an issue. But now anyone can get those rings. It's not even a situation of people going to farm ToMM instead for the rings, they can literally just buy them off the tradehouse for 10k astral diamonds.
The only reason anyone I know now wants to run Zariel - with the possibility that there is no loot to be farmed for in the content - is for the challenge. If the case is for the satisfaction of completing it, then it is WAY too easy. The first groups should be spending weeks or possibly months on this for it to be worth only running once. There is already going to be an easy mode for all those that complain of difficulty, why give no incentive for the difficult version to be farmed? Even then, this is very backwards for formally an economy based MMO, which now would have minimal items to stimulate that economy.
Why do you want people farming Dread Ring and Heroic events all day to progress? Do you want your game to just be a mindless boring grind or do you want it to be fun? Engaging? Rewarding? Chasing the high of getting rare drops from the hardest content? That is honestly one of the best parts of this game, and ToMM did it the best. Since ToMM launched, I know people who are spending every moment in the game preparing for Zariel before they even knew it existed, with the idea that we are working towards something very challenging that is equally rewarding, since its projected to spend millions of astral diamonds to be ready for it. Most of these people will probably not even run a trial with no replayability, and it's in my opinion really sad to let down the most devoted players of this game.
I know I'm far from the only one that shares these opinion.
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wurmschwanzMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 35Arc User
Although I am shadowbanned I want to express my opinion:
I think it is a very foolish to think that anyone would like to run this content more than 20 times to get the weapons. Maybe to carry a friend or so. I think a lot of people don't even consider to gear up for this trial because it is not lucrative. Sounds sad but this is the main motivation behind this. Yes, it feels good to accomplish this trial. Yes, it is great. But this feeling won't last long - after the feeling fades, it needs something else to entertain the people.
I can't stress this enough: If you don't give good rewards for this trial this is just a waste of time - not only for the players but also for you, the devs. Because you spent so much time designing and programming this trial and in the end only a handful players will run this content and lose interest in it after they got their weapons. Is this what you were aiming for? I don't understand this idea - what is the goal?
Please consider new loot. It does not have to be something completely new: The overload ench. from the hellpit event would be an extremely desirable loot and it's already in the game. Even vanity pets or skins or just ANYTHING else which seems to be lucrative would be a good motivation.
I'm tired of begging the devs to design something that pleases the community.
PS: I'm also tired of asking Julia and Lassor to consider unbanning me. I'm tired of being ignored. I couldn't give my beta feedback because of the ban and I don't know why they couldn't unban me for at least this comment section.
Fully agree with you. To be honest in the last mod there has been too much effort in providing content (and rewards) for endgamers and way less for more casual players. The top end dungeon/trial should feel like an achievement, not something you farm. Farmable stuff should be one step below.
So just because the content is for endgamers the loot should not even be looked at? How would you like it if running randoms gave no rough AD, no seals and absolutely no drops? Would you still run it because you might be running content you havent completed before? And would you keep running it? If the endgame is not desireable then what is there to work towards? The reality of the situation is that most endgame groups have already stated they will not run the new trial if the loot does not improve. Is this not enough of a reason to shake things up?
Instead of being afraid that players outside of the endgame category will get upset over the new trial and its rewards, why not cater to both groups and make both versions of the trial desierable and farmable? Why does it always have to be one way or the other? As someone stated, the trial is beautiful and a tough challenge, but it kind of goes down the drain when there is no inscentive to keep running it. I believe I speak for a lot of players when I say this needs to be addressed because many feel discouraged and disappointed by the last statement that was made in regards to the loot.
Once the weapons are got there is absolutely no incentive to endgame players. How hard is it to introduce a campaign store for trial completion currency like hell pit? I mean seriously, because you won’t have a single endgame player left to teach the game to noobies.
At the risk of being repetitive, I’m going to agree that it doesn’t make the best sense if the only worthwhile reward for completing the trial ends up being the best weapons in the game, which you can then use to...farm the trial you no longer wish to do? Have even faster ToMM runs? Feel pretty while doing MEs?
I’m only exaggerating a tiny bit. Mostly serious, unfortunately.
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We need more! The completion happiness feeling will grow old very soon and people won't be running the content anymore once they have what they need...
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My suggestion for loot is either bound or unbound legendary companion gear or mythic rings. These are chase items, something to keep players busy and cause them to continously farm the content. Whether or not it is unbound is debateable although looking at ToMM I would say that the unbound gear dropping was a success and caused players to farm it even to this day.Is that not what the goal is here? To make a great piece of content that is challenging but also rewarding? There are numerous other items that would be desirable in the Zariel loottable. Transmutes always go well with players. How about getting Zariels burning halo or the blindfolds?
Give us more of an incentive to run the trial repeatedly, please.
sorry for the scuffed photoshop but i like putting in visual representations
No offense, but the EA'ish "The intent is to provide players with a sense of pride and accomplishment for unlocking different weapons." is just not good enough of a reason for those that will need more than a week (and more than a month and longer) to finish it.
Why I need the weapons to begin with? To do the story mode with them?
Looks like the proper way to do this content will be wait for the finishing groups to finish, get their weapon, and then get carried few times for the weapons, and be done with it? Or just skip it. Why bother learn it with a group, investing in HP, and all that... if its dead before it arrived...
Finishing as a guild / group is great, and a motivation on its own, but the investment for those that do not aim to finish among the first groups just doesn't justify it on its own.
Mod 19 just went from pretty good to rather borring for me
The fun for me comes from playing with the group and learning together. Many groups are practicing on preview this time and the trial relies more on stat checks rather than skill checks (an entirely different topic, but I couldn't help myself). This means that the numbers you'll see on live will be horrible, as a lot of people, just like me, will come in there to pick up their weapons and barely ever touch it again.
With no rewards to keep players in longer term, the trial will be a failure and a waste of development time. Putting rewards in challenging content (TOMM) has definitely been one of your better ideas, as opposed to gating them behind horrible RNG (such as WE, FE, some of the rods in rage of Bel, demo rings, shadowstalker rings and many more sad examples). Please reconsider your approach to this issue.
There will always be content and gear that only a certain group of players will be able to obtain, these are chase-items. Making content extremely new player-friendly is not the path that we want to go down, we want challenge and rewards, not one or the other. You want to inspect a person and go "Wow, I cant wait till I'm strong enough to obtain that gear".
*shrug*
Second, and not great but still there are options like bta store that is updated per episode and offers what is under RNG in other aspects of the game. So players offered either get stuff via rng or finish the trial. Small consolation for those that have it all, but still more than just pride.
The parallel will be offering companion gear in ToMM store for scrolls of the void.
In addition, I think the trial should reward systematically 3-5 scrolls of life (BtA or not) to motivate people to repeat
Zariel doesn't speak at all when the game is set in another language than English. It is really annoying for the White noise mechanic. I understand that there is currently no dubbing from English to another language (because of covid delay). But in that case, you should have let the English langage vocals instead of nothing. If the dubbings are not made by the time of Zariel trial release, please think about including English language in all countries
There are many different reasons for people to play the content. Not everyone plays to get richer.
But more important, what's YOUR goal when you make content and you don't give people the will to play it ? I have seen so many people saying "new content ? naaah that's not worth the investissement"
I would call it aswell the IC of The trials then, No Rewards No Good Weapons for every Class and that would excluded even more players to not particapate in the new Trial. I dont see a bright Future for the Game if that will be the Case what is said here.
Iam really concern about our lovely game.
strong pleople will run it for the challenge until story mode, then we all will run it in story mode (probably with some minor differences in final drop, like no weaponsand no coin to buy weapons).
when the time will come, the story mode can be put in the random queue without resuting in a mass drop from the instance in case it will pop, and the hard mode can still be played by those that want a challenge.
hypotetically each new mod the story mode will remain unchanged (making it easier to complete) and the hard mode could be upgraded to the new end game level (creating a good way to test changes in build if needed, we would know the content, and how we poerformed before, we could see if we do better or worse).
a little like some used to do a 5 tr tong, 25 dc tiamat, etc, the trials will be challenges.
if not... then i agree that strong people will run it until they have the weapons, their friends and guild's menbers have the weapons, then they will probably be sick of it, and will never (voluntarily) do it again (for at least some time)
In every single trial that has came out in this game, you have always had weapons and other items to farm for once you have it. This has always worked, so I dont understand why you would now suddenly change this idea.
In Temple of Tiamat we were farming for linus favours. These bought the weapons and also used for campaign progression, to this day people still farm it for Linus to complete the campaign.
In Demogorgen we were farming for weapons, and also +5 rings which at the time were the only way to get them and were best in slot at the time. This gave people a reason to want to farm it over and over to get the best in slot rings.
In Assault on Svardborg we were farming for weapons, after this some people quit running as there was no other thing to farm. However this was after the dungeon key chest change / rework, and this was a trial where you could get at the time best in slot rings from FBI, it was faster to complete then FBI, and it has 3 chests which you could open for free by doing dailies, this was incentive for some people to continue farming it.
In Cradle of the Death God we were farming for weapons, Ostorian Tale Carving and Soulmonger Ampoule, to upgrade your weapons and armor. On top of this we also had Ultimate Enchanting Stones, which was needed by a lot of the community, so if it was to either sell or use for yourself, people had a reason to farm this, as this trial was faster then doing its dungeon counter part, Tomb of the Nine Gods.
In Tower of the Mad Mage we were farming for weapons, a artifact set which is best in slot for some endgame builds and characters, Enchanting Stones rank 6, and most importantly the "ToMM rings" (I guess we should change these name to level 80 trial rings). These rings were and still are best in slot. These rings were made unbound which is the only difference in this trial compared to the rest, this was a massive reason for people wanting to farm it, so they can make AD.
In Zariel's Challenge we are farming for weapons. That is it. The artifact set is not good, it needs to be reworked or it wont be used in endgame builds and characters. The only other rewards are ToMM rings. Which is different to the past when I compared MSVA to FBI, as MSVA was faster and more chests for chances of the ring. ZC is longer then ToMM and it has the same amount of chests, so if people want to farm for ToMM rings, why would they chose to do it in ZC? Also these rings are older rings from mod 17, when this is a trial for mod 19, with a new mod should come vertical progression, whereas we currently get no progression from this, not even horizontal.
If there isnt an incentive for endgame players to run it, then they wont run it. In ToMM after the first groups on preview beat it, they made guides and started to teach the community. They helped them to get their weapons and from there they could then help their friends and so on. If there isnt the players to start this chain, it will either never begin, or will come much later, and im not sure how appealing a new piece of content that nobody wants to run looks.
On top of this, the weapon is going to be best in slot, and this is the main incentive. It has higher weapon damage and therefore dps and healers will want to use it to deal more damage and heal for greater amounts. However the lionheart set has a bonus to tanking, which has no relation to weapon damage and the new set bonus doesnt have this. So if anything it will be a direct downgrade in terms of tankiness and survivability, which is the primary job as a tank.
For these reasons I believe the rewards from the trial should be changed. Reworking the set bonuses from both the weapon and artifact set, as well as adding something else for the players to want to farm. If it were even bound new best in slot rings or an upgrade to our existing rings, like +1 variants.
We know on the roadmap there is a new masterworks coming out. If it worked like how it used to and materials were adding into the dungeons for people to farm, then you could add a drop into ZC which would then give people the incentive to farm it. The drop from this trial could be used to make all masterwork weapons, that are also at the same item level as the ZC ones, but have a more appealing bonus. Meaning you could keep the set bonus as it is from the trial, knowing that there will be a more appealing one coming later (horizontal progression), as this wouldnt be at the launch of the trial and a month or 2 later.
If you want to give everyone the chance to learn the mechanics and not make it so people who practise on preview have a advantage (just disable the trial on preview or limit the playtime similar to owlbear) then release the main farming item with masterwork, I wouldnt mind this, but it would also be nice to know this in advance. I think a few people think this will be the case, as it seems weird having nothing appealing for people to play for. However if masterwork comes out in a different way, players might feel like there has been a bait and switch. as otherwise as many have said it just feels like a waste of time, money and effort to learning this trial when after you beat it at most 40 times for your weapons, you wont want to enter again.
Considering we had a CDP on rewards, which is the first ever CDP we've had. And this is the first fresh new piece of content it could be applied to without retroactively going back and changing older contents rewards. It feels like the rewards have gotten worse, which is not a good sign.
Is there at least some hidden reward for a deathless run? something unique to the trial.
And while I am sure having something to farm to sell is appealing, I dunno what exactly is there for the players who already have more in game currency than they could possibly spend. This is more an open ended question to the players.
If you are already sitting on 100s of millions of AD and enough zen to do whatever and buy whatever you want, what exactly is appealing about farming stuff to sell for a fraction of what you already have.
Honestly I Don't know, vanity stuff? transmogs? Mount skins, A new Throne? a unique title? ( though there are already about 200+ of Its not much of a statue symbol)
While I personally am not a big fan of time gated content, The restriction in TIC with the token drops to 3 per week was actually quite refreshing. Reminded me of raid lockouts which I never had a issue with in other games, and I always found it a bit odd being able to just spam the HAMSTER out of the dungeon/raid content in a day. But that's just me
While it is a very fun and challenging piece of content, there is no incentive to replay it after the first few times.
The people that really want a challenge will complete it at first, get their satisfaction and then drop it, they won't host training runs for others, instead they will tell them "just go farm tomm it's easier and better".
And since the trial is behind a campaign task, not many people will buy the release pack with the currency unless the other stuff in the pack is GOLD.
Also, please don't take this as dev bashing, it is my point of view and feel free to delete this if it's offensive:
In that post you are implying that you don't mind if people don't run your content on repeat (ahem, in an MMO), seriously, personally i'm really inclined to not believe you guys.
I genuinely think some of the devs that worked on designing the arena and the mechanics (which are absolutely beautiful by the way) feel screwed over. I know for certain i would be PISSED if i pumped out a masterpiece and people were not interested in it.
I apologise for being redundant and off topic on something, want just to add my perspective as well.
With mod19 release, the only relevant content endgame-wise will be Zariel's challenge, because ToMM with lionheart upgrade will be a joke (6 dps runs in mod19 are going as fast and smooth as mod18 8 dps runs).
With current standing, I would have to invest around 30mil (aka war triceratops for my warlock and fighter) to having an upgraded version of my weapons that I will likely benefit for Zariel's challenge only, then having to wait for around an year for another endgame content.
That said, with current standing I would still play Zariel's challenge for "a sense of achievement" but I will do it on preview only, because the consumables/scrolls/time (and the 30mil ad above) aren't worth the effort.
I don't even think it will be worth to help friends/guildies getting the weapons, it is way more efficient tell them to wait for one year for a new trial to be released and Zariel's challenge being put into oblivion like ToMM will in mod19.
At last, I won't even queue for PvP, as the lionheart buff itself is adding even more powercreep (specific post will follow), making most of the fights like "oneshot or get oneshotted".
TL;DR: I am not asking to become rich, but can I have a long-term endgame content to have fun without getting poor?
Trying to be propositive: I like the upgraded gear suggestion, if lazy proposals are accepted as well, I would go for unbind weapons, changing the bonus for something more useful, same for the artifact set.
Have a nice day!
I already said this before on stardock module, endgame content should be arranged for 5 ppl groups, and use 10 ppl dungeons/trials for integrating newer ppl. Its easier for endgame people to arrange a group of 5 friends and coordinate better the trial.
Plus item rewards should be things that you can get another way but would be better to farm them on the challenging content (such as rank 5 stones on codg, or add marks of potency, pres wards,etc to those coffers), or something sellable as were tomm rings (of course when everyone has them they would have no value but that is unavoidable). Lionhear weps and new weps are actually a barrier
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
ToMM was one of the most successful pieces of content this game has ever had in terms of bringing it to look like a serious MMO, with real raiding potential. If we hadn't already had the Idris Journal situation and then the rampant power of the Arbiter clerics that have made the ToMM rings so saturated in the game and now not worth running, then maybe it wouldn't have been an issue. But now anyone can get those rings. It's not even a situation of people going to farm ToMM instead for the rings, they can literally just buy them off the tradehouse for 10k astral diamonds.
The only reason anyone I know now wants to run Zariel - with the possibility that there is no loot to be farmed for in the content - is for the challenge. If the case is for the satisfaction of completing it, then it is WAY too easy. The first groups should be spending weeks or possibly months on this for it to be worth only running once. There is already going to be an easy mode for all those that complain of difficulty, why give no incentive for the difficult version to be farmed? Even then, this is very backwards for formally an economy based MMO, which now would have minimal items to stimulate that economy.
Why do you want people farming Dread Ring and Heroic events all day to progress? Do you want your game to just be a mindless boring grind or do you want it to be fun? Engaging? Rewarding? Chasing the high of getting rare drops from the hardest content? That is honestly one of the best parts of this game, and ToMM did it the best. Since ToMM launched, I know people who are spending every moment in the game preparing for Zariel before they even knew it existed, with the idea that we are working towards something very challenging that is equally rewarding, since its projected to spend millions of astral diamonds to be ready for it. Most of these people will probably not even run a trial with no replayability, and it's in my opinion really sad to let down the most devoted players of this game.
I know I'm far from the only one that shares these opinion.
I think it is a very foolish to think that anyone would like to run this content more than 20 times to get the weapons. Maybe to carry a friend or so. I think a lot of people don't even consider to gear up for this trial because it is not lucrative. Sounds sad but this is the main motivation behind this. Yes, it feels good to accomplish this trial. Yes, it is great. But this feeling won't last long - after the feeling fades, it needs something else to entertain the people.
I can't stress this enough: If you don't give good rewards for this trial this is just a waste of time - not only for the players but also for you, the devs. Because you spent so much time designing and programming this trial and in the end only a handful players will run this content and lose interest in it after they got their weapons. Is this what you were aiming for? I don't understand this idea - what is the goal?
Please consider new loot. It does not have to be something completely new: The overload ench. from the hellpit event would be an extremely desirable loot and it's already in the game. Even vanity pets or skins or just ANYTHING else which seems to be lucrative would be a good motivation.
I'm tired of begging the devs to design something that pleases the community.
PS: I'm also tired of asking Julia and Lassor to consider unbanning me. I'm tired of being ignored. I couldn't give my beta feedback because of the ban and I don't know why they couldn't unban me for at least this comment section.
Instead of being afraid that players outside of the endgame category will get upset over the new trial and its rewards, why not cater to both groups and make both versions of the trial desierable and farmable? Why does it always have to be one way or the other? As someone stated, the trial is beautiful and a tough challenge, but it kind of goes down the drain when there is no inscentive to keep running it. I believe I speak for a lot of players when I say this needs to be addressed because many feel discouraged and disappointed by the last statement that was made in regards to the loot.
@asterdahl
I’m only exaggerating a tiny bit. Mostly serious, unfortunately.
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