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OFFICIAL M19: Zariel's Challenge Feedback

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  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,249 Arc User
    If the issue is game economy "market control", first of all I've suggested an elegant solution for that in this very thread.

    Second, and not great but still there are options like bta store that is updated per episode and offers what is under RNG in other aspects of the game. So players offered either get stuff via rng or finish the trial. Small consolation for those that have it all, but still more than just pride.

    The parallel will be offering companion gear in ToMM store for scrolls of the void.
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  • werdandi#8366 werdandi Member Posts: 304 Arc User
    edited May 31
    Rewards: I vote again for a NPC's store with useful or cosmetic things to buy, or a legendary box of pet gear choice after gaining enough angel's feathers or whatever.
    In addition, I think the trial should reward systematically 3-5 scrolls of life (BtA or not) to motivate people to repeat


    Zariel doesn't speak at all when the game is set in another language than English. It is really annoying for the White noise mechanic. I understand that there is currently no dubbing from English to another language (because of covid delay). But in that case, you should have let the English langage vocals instead of nothing. If the dubbings are not made by the time of Zariel trial release, please think about including English language in all countries
  • werdandi#8366 werdandi Member Posts: 304 Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    For now, we do hope that the power and status of having a superior weapon is something that can continue to feel good for tackling the most challenging content successfully.

    Hope over experience .............

  • cilginordekcilginordek Member Posts: 459 Arc User


    it costs millions and millions to gear up for this content. if there isn't some hope of making some of it back why go to the effort?

    For the challenge, for the competition, because the content is enjoyable, to improve teamwork, to improve self, etc. etc.
    There are many different reasons for people to play the content. Not everyone plays to get richer.

  • tassedethe13tassedethe13 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 781 Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    I will be the first person to say it. Might as well get the complain train going.

    This trial needs better loot. ToMM rings are not a good enough incentive to continue running it after people have acquired their weapons. I suggest either new pet gear or something else otherwise the trial will be a failure.

    I understand that some will consider a piece of content a failure if they are not encouraged to run it on repeat continually. However, we don't necessarily adhere to this same philosophy—particularly with very challenging content—it's okay if once you have the primary reward from the content you don't feel the compulsion to farm it continually. This is especially true because for some players, simply completing that content in the first place can be a monumental challenge.

    However, we do appreciate the feedback, and are examining ways in the future we could provide ways to encourage more repeat play of challenging content for those so-inclined. The difficulty becomes that if those loops feel essential, they feel very punishing for those who cannot participate in that harder content. For now, we do hope that the power and status of having a superior weapon is something that can continue to feel good for tackling the most challenging content successfully.
    Soooo basically, you said that the goal of this trial is only to get weapon, and then stop running it ( like TIC failure ). what's the point of getting those weapons so ? To be the shiny one at the enclave ?

    But more important, what's YOUR goal when you make content and you don't give people the will to play it ? I have seen so many people saying "new content ? naaah that's not worth the investissement"
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 938 Arc User


    it costs millions and millions to gear up for this content. if there isn't some hope of making some of it back why go to the effort?

    For the challenge, for the competition, because the content is enjoyable, to improve teamwork, to improve self, etc. etc.
    There are many different reasons for people to play the content. Not everyone plays to get richer.

    for challenge and completion you run it at the start. For fun and teamwork you run it once in a while. If there is no longterm incentive in terms of loot, most ppl will stop running it pretty fast. But it seems like thats the goal of the devs, they want the trial to be not played.
  • hayyyyahayyyya Member Posts: 12 Arc User
    If that is really the Case what i said the in this Feedback Forum i dont see any pride Future for the Game since there will be No teachers Left for the Mid and Low Tier players since all Endgamer Players will Leave the game or will play only small portion of it. U need to Gear up your toon for at least 25m to 30 million AD from Tomm Status to Zariel Status on Current Status of Preview and i dont see any midgamer player or lower tier player will take there Time to Gear up For a Trial. Since they had at least from mod 17 enough time to Gear up for Tomm. "example i where yesterday in a Trainings run with almost only midgame players they had a 4hrs Tomm Trainigsrun wich i never seen that much dedication for training on this dungeon. I Think its nice to have something to Focus on and Training for then you have at least the intensive to play the game even more". I finished that run with those players after 2 more Trys and they where so happy it Felt so amazing to see players actualy have something that they grind for and getting progress on there toon. I run tomm now 1421 Times i counted every single Run since end of September where the Trial came out.

    I would call it aswell the IC of The trials then, No Rewards No Good Weapons for every Class and that would excluded even more players to not particapate in the new Trial. I dont see a bright Future for the Game if that will be the Case what is said here.

    Iam really concern about our lovely game.
  • xander#0631 xander Member Posts: 68 Arc User
    well in a certain way it could make sense, if they upgrade it each new mod.

    strong pleople will run it for the challenge until story mode, then we all will run it in story mode (probably with some minor differences in final drop, like no weaponsand no coin to buy weapons).
    when the time will come, the story mode can be put in the random queue without resuting in a mass drop from the instance in case it will pop, and the hard mode can still be played by those that want a challenge.
    hypotetically each new mod the story mode will remain unchanged (making it easier to complete) and the hard mode could be upgraded to the new end game level (creating a good way to test changes in build if needed, we would know the content, and how we poerformed before, we could see if we do better or worse).

    a little like some used to do a 5 tr tong, 25 dc tiamat, etc, the trials will be challenges.

    if not... then i agree that strong people will run it until they have the weapons, their friends and guild's menbers have the weapons, then they will probably be sick of it, and will never (voluntarily) do it again (for at least some time)
    reality is what most recognize as true
  • carloswartune#5709 carloswartune Member Posts: 188 Arc User
    fisenfis said:

    Transmutes always go well with players. How about getting Zariels burning halo or the blindfolds?

    +1 for the Halo and Blindfolds, preferably as different slots so that both can be used together (let's say blindfolds as a head trasnmute and the halo as neck). Also, the new mount that can be seen on preview, "Celestial Wings", looks unfinished, but if the finished looks for this mount is actually a pair of wings similar to Zariel's, it could be a pretty decent reason for running the trial too (and an epic version could be added in its place for Redeemed Citadel, whatever that is).
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 938 Arc User
    asterdahl said:

    I will be the first person to say it. Might as well get the complain train going.

    This trial needs better loot. ToMM rings are not a good enough incentive to continue running it after people have acquired their weapons. I suggest either new pet gear or something else otherwise the trial will be a failure.

    I understand that some will consider a piece of content a failure if they are not encouraged to run it on repeat continually. However, we don't necessarily adhere to this same philosophy—particularly with very challenging content—it's okay if once you have the primary reward from the content you don't feel the compulsion to farm it continually. This is especially true because for some players, simply completing that content in the first place can be a monumental challenge.

    However, we do appreciate the feedback, and are examining ways in the future we could provide ways to encourage more repeat play of challenging content for those so-inclined. The difficulty becomes that if those loops feel essential, they feel very punishing for those who cannot participate in that harder content. For now, we do hope that the power and status of having a superior weapon is something that can continue to feel good for tackling the most challenging content successfully.
    If you want to go the "just finishing it in itself is enough" route, then this trial needs to get ALOT harder. Im fine with bad loot, if its atleast so hard that i need to train for weeks/months to have a chance of beating it.
  • cilginordekcilginordek Member Posts: 459 Arc User
    tom#6998 said:


    for challenge and completion you run it at the start. For fun and teamwork you run it once in a while. If there is no longterm incentive in terms of loot, most ppl will stop running it pretty fast. But it seems like thats the goal of the devs, they want the trial to be not played.

    I don't see anything wrong with only running it once in a while. I'd rather run every content once in a while to get richer than to run the same one over and over again.
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 938 Arc User

    tom#6998 said:


    for challenge and completion you run it at the start. For fun and teamwork you run it once in a while. If there is no longterm incentive in terms of loot, most ppl will stop running it pretty fast. But it seems like thats the goal of the devs, they want the trial to be not played.

    I don't see anything wrong with only running it once in a while. I'd rather run every content once in a while to get richer than to run the same one over and over again.
    if there would be a variety of engaging endgame content i would agree, but i just dont see that in Neverwinter.
  • tempus86#1158 tempus86 Member Posts: 148 Arc User
    While this doesn't effect me personally, as I am not in a position to meet the health requirements any time soon, I do think not having something else to aim for once the weapons have been gotten is a really bad idea. you spend 6months designing this place, to have the majority of the players who will be able to clear this practice it on the PTR, be able to come in and get the weapons in a few days on the live server, and then never have a reason to go there again.

    Is there at least some hidden reward for a deathless run? something unique to the trial.

    And while I am sure having something to farm to sell is appealing, I dunno what exactly is there for the players who already have more in game currency than they could possibly spend. This is more an open ended question to the players.
    If you are already sitting on 100s of millions of AD and enough zen to do whatever and buy whatever you want, what exactly is appealing about farming stuff to sell for a fraction of what you already have.

    Honestly I Don't know, vanity stuff? transmogs? Mount skins, A new Throne? a unique title? ( though there are already about 200+ of Its not much of a statue symbol)

    While I personally am not a big fan of time gated content, The restriction in TIC with the token drops to 3 per week was actually quite refreshing. Reminded me of raid lockouts which I never had a issue with in other games, and I always found it a bit odd being able to just spam the HAMSTER out of the dungeon/raid content in a day. But that's just me
  • gonzakotwigonzakotwi Member Posts: 249 Arc User
    asterdahl said:



    I understand that some will consider a piece of content a failure if they are not encouraged to run it on repeat continually. However, we don't necessarily adhere to this same philosophy—particularly with very challenging content—it's okay if once you have the primary reward from the content you don't feel the compulsion to farm it continually. This is especially true because for some players, simply completing that content in the first place can be a monumental challenge.

    However, we do appreciate the feedback, and are examining ways in the future we could provide ways to encourage more repeat play of challenging content for those so-inclined. The difficulty becomes that if those loops feel essential, they feel very punishing for those who cannot participate in that harder content. For now, we do hope that the power and status of having a superior weapon is something that can continue to feel good for tackling the most challenging content successfully.

    Well on the one hand, a superior weapon is something very essential for progressing so thats a barrier for future content such as this trial where you wont get invited unless you have last trial weapons. Even now you wont get invited for most tomm's unless you have lionheart weapons (somehow a paradox).
    I already said this before on stardock module, endgame content should be arranged for 5 ppl groups, and use 10 ppl dungeons/trials for integrating newer ppl. Its easier for endgame people to arrange a group of 5 friends and coordinate better the trial.
    Plus item rewards should be things that you can get another way but would be better to farm them on the challenging content (such as rank 5 stones on codg, or add marks of potency, pres wards,etc to those coffers), or something sellable as were tomm rings (of course when everyone has them they would have no value but that is unavoidable). Lionhear weps and new weps are actually a barrier
  • hastur905hastur905 Member Posts: 147 Arc User
    I too agree that the "cost" of running a dungeon/trial should not be a net negative benefit. I harken back to when FBI was first released and after charging your armor etc with voninblood you would then be forced to spend hours farming more voninblood to recharge your armor, the dev's listened and the amount of voninblood that was given exceeded what was used in the dungeon. Having said that voninblood is not scrolls, nor is it AD, neither of which should be a requirement to enter or complete content which the Trial in its current configuration is exactly doing. Knowing that this is still in preview, and that there is still changes to come I reserve judgment. But the question has been raised that the main part of the modules are supposed to be about vertical progression, from what I can see one must take the whole module in the picture and not specifically speak about the Trial alone. Many of the other parts of the campaign offer vertical progression items that are superior to the drops(hunts) that will be in the Trial which I applaud. So maybe the solution is to allow these rings from Hunts to also have a chance to drop in the Trial, allowing the players a choice of how they want to play the game. Do hunts or do trial?
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    edited May 31
    asterdahl said:

    I will be the first person to say it. Might as well get the complain train going.

    This trial needs better loot. ToMM rings are not a good enough incentive to continue running it after people have acquired their weapons. I suggest either new pet gear or something else otherwise the trial will be a failure.

    I understand that some will consider a piece of content a failure if they are not encouraged to run it on repeat continually. However, we don't necessarily adhere to this same philosophy—particularly with very challenging content—it's okay if once you have the primary reward from the content you don't feel the compulsion to farm it continually. This is especially true because for some players, simply completing that content in the first place can be a monumental challenge.

    However, we do appreciate the feedback, and are examining ways in the future we could provide ways to encourage more repeat play of challenging content for those so-inclined. The difficulty becomes that if those loops feel essential, they feel very punishing for those who cannot participate in that harder content. For now, we do hope that the power and status of having a superior weapon is something that can continue to feel good for tackling the most challenging content successfully.
    Fully agree with you. To be honest in the last mod there has been too much effort in providing content (and rewards) for endgamers and way less for more casual players. The top end dungeon/trial should feel like an achievement, not something you farm. Farmable stuff should be one step below.
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  • cecil2xs#3048 cecil2xs Member Posts: 4 Arc User
    I'm not going to write a super long response to the loot situation as many people have explained it better than I. Without good loot in the content, it won't be farmed. Why even spend so long making the content if you don't want to drive your playerbase to play it? Why would developers EVER want their content that is supposed to last a year (for a trial) to last for the bare minimum completions to get weapons?

    ToMM was one of the most successful pieces of content this game has ever had in terms of bringing it to look like a serious MMO, with real raiding potential. If we hadn't already had the Idris Journal situation and then the rampant power of the Arbiter clerics that have made the ToMM rings so saturated in the game and now not worth running, then maybe it wouldn't have been an issue. But now anyone can get those rings. It's not even a situation of people going to farm ToMM instead for the rings, they can literally just buy them off the tradehouse for 10k astral diamonds.

    The only reason anyone I know now wants to run Zariel - with the possibility that there is no loot to be farmed for in the content - is for the challenge. If the case is for the satisfaction of completing it, then it is WAY too easy. The first groups should be spending weeks or possibly months on this for it to be worth only running once. There is already going to be an easy mode for all those that complain of difficulty, why give no incentive for the difficult version to be farmed? Even then, this is very backwards for formally an economy based MMO, which now would have minimal items to stimulate that economy.

    Why do you want people farming Dread Ring and Heroic events all day to progress? Do you want your game to just be a mindless boring grind or do you want it to be fun? Engaging? Rewarding? Chasing the high of getting rare drops from the hardest content? That is honestly one of the best parts of this game, and ToMM did it the best. Since ToMM launched, I know people who are spending every moment in the game preparing for Zariel before they even knew it existed, with the idea that we are working towards something very challenging that is equally rewarding, since its projected to spend millions of astral diamonds to be ready for it. Most of these people will probably not even run a trial with no replayability, and it's in my opinion really sad to let down the most devoted players of this game.

    I know I'm far from the only one that shares these opinion.
  • wurmschwanzwurmschwanz Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 35 Arc User
    Although I am shadowbanned I want to express my opinion:

    I think it is a very foolish to think that anyone would like to run this content more than 20 times to get the weapons. Maybe to carry a friend or so. I think a lot of people don't even consider to gear up for this trial because it is not lucrative. Sounds sad but this is the main motivation behind this. Yes, it feels good to accomplish this trial. Yes, it is great. But this feeling won't last long - after the feeling fades, it needs something else to entertain the people.

    I can't stress this enough: If you don't give good rewards for this trial this is just a waste of time - not only for the players but also for you, the devs. Because you spent so much time designing and programming this trial and in the end only a handful players will run this content and lose interest in it after they got their weapons. Is this what you were aiming for? I don't understand this idea - what is the goal?

    Please consider new loot. It does not have to be something completely new: The overload ench. from the hellpit event would be an extremely desirable loot and it's already in the game. Even vanity pets or skins or just ANYTHING else which seems to be lucrative would be a good motivation.

    I'm tired of begging the devs to design something that pleases the community.

    PS: I'm also tired of asking Julia and Lassor to consider unbanning me. I'm tired of being ignored. I couldn't give my beta feedback because of the ban and I don't know why they couldn't unban me for at least this comment section.
  • fisenfisfisenfis Member Posts: 131 Arc User

    Fully agree with you. To be honest in the last mod there has been too much effort in providing content (and rewards) for endgamers and way less for more casual players. The top end dungeon/trial should feel like an achievement, not something you farm. Farmable stuff should be one step below.

    So just because the content is for endgamers the loot should not even be looked at? How would you like it if running randoms gave no rough AD, no seals and absolutely no drops? Would you still run it because you might be running content you havent completed before? And would you keep running it? If the endgame is not desireable then what is there to work towards? The reality of the situation is that most endgame groups have already stated they will not run the new trial if the loot does not improve. Is this not enough of a reason to shake things up?

    Instead of being afraid that players outside of the endgame category will get upset over the new trial and its rewards, why not cater to both groups and make both versions of the trial desierable and farmable? Why does it always have to be one way or the other? As someone stated, the trial is beautiful and a tough challenge, but it kind of goes down the drain when there is no inscentive to keep running it. I believe I speak for a lot of players when I say this needs to be addressed because many feel discouraged and disappointed by the last statement that was made in regards to the loot.

    @asterdahl
  • jbball92#2946 jbball92 Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    Once the weapons are got there is absolutely no incentive to endgame players. How hard is it to introduce a campaign store for trial completion currency like hell pit? I mean seriously, because you won’t have a single endgame player left to teach the game to noobies.
  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    At the risk of being repetitive, I’m going to agree that it doesn’t make the best sense if the only worthwhile reward for completing the trial ends up being the best weapons in the game, which you can then use to...farm the trial you no longer wish to do? Have even faster ToMM runs? Feel pretty while doing MEs?

    I’m only exaggerating a tiny bit. Mostly serious, unfortunately.
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