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OFFICIAL M19: Zariel's Challenge Feedback

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  • werdandi#8366 werdandi Member Posts: 304 Arc User
    edited June 2
    tom#6998 said:

    Yeah, my agenda is for content to not be dead on arrival. I said exactly the same things about IC and its amazing "drop pool" and it wasn't even aimed at me (the devs responsible for it literally told us, "this piece of content is not aimed at you"). Guess what, IC is pretty much dead and was dead when it came out, but hey, the only people campaigning for the content that was aimed at YOU to be worthwhile were also the "evil" people who are campaigning for their own content to be worthwhile. The people that you are now trying to shaft. The irony is through the roof

    I have an objection : IC is what make people not having access to Tomm stay in the game. People with good stats but not Tomm-ready or not having a big friend list to find a Tomm group (or not knowing/using the custom channels). This represents the vast majority of not-so-badly geared players.
    Sorry for the offtopic but of course developers also have to create new dungeon or trial content for the biggest pool of players to retain them. I was hopeful on the baby version of Zariel's challenge but it seems it will be only a story-mode :(

    do you agree that the loot in IC is pretty lackluster and it could have been done alot better?
    EDIT: IC loot is ok: artefacts sell for a good price . And there are very often good pets or mounts. Of course, more things could have been added but it is the same idea of rewards as in Lomm.
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 938 Arc User

    Yeah, my agenda is for content to not be dead on arrival. I said exactly the same things about IC and its amazing "drop pool" and it wasn't even aimed at me (the devs responsible for it literally told us, "this piece of content is not aimed at you"). Guess what, IC is pretty much dead and was dead when it came out, but hey, the only people campaigning for the content that was aimed at YOU to be worthwhile were also the "evil" people who are campaigning for their own content to be worthwhile. The people that you are now trying to shaft. The irony is through the roof

    I have an objection : IC is what make people not having access to Tomm stay in the game. People with good stats but not Tomm-ready or not having a big friend list to find a Tomm group (or not knowing/using the custom channels). This represents the vast majority of not-so-badly geared players.
    Sorry for the offtopic but of course developers also have to create new dungeon or trial content for the biggest pool of players to retain them. I was hopeful on the baby version of Zariel's challenge but it seems it will be only a story-mode :(

    This is it. This game catered to small subset of endgamers for too long. Now let them have their shiny BIS weapons and that's it. We need more stuff for all the others.
    so you want them to waste development time just so you can feel better about your own shortcomings?
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    tom#6998 said:

    Yeah, my agenda is for content to not be dead on arrival. I said exactly the same things about IC and its amazing "drop pool" and it wasn't even aimed at me (the devs responsible for it literally told us, "this piece of content is not aimed at you"). Guess what, IC is pretty much dead and was dead when it came out, but hey, the only people campaigning for the content that was aimed at YOU to be worthwhile were also the "evil" people who are campaigning for their own content to be worthwhile. The people that you are now trying to shaft. The irony is through the roof

    I have an objection : IC is what make people not having access to Tomm stay in the game. People with good stats but not Tomm-ready or not having a big friend list to find a Tomm group (or not knowing/using the custom channels). This represents the vast majority of not-so-badly geared players.
    Sorry for the offtopic but of course developers also have to create new dungeon or trial content for the biggest pool of players to retain them. I was hopeful on the baby version of Zariel's challenge but it seems it will be only a story-mode :(

    This is it. This game catered to small subset of endgamers for too long. Now let them have their shiny BIS weapons and that's it. We need more stuff for all the others.
    so you want them to waste development time just so you can feel better about your own shortcomings?
    Nope. They should simply leave the challenge as it is and focus more on other parts. Looking at the campaign I can see that there will be hunts and Zariel's rebuilding tasks as well. That's where most of our guild will play. On my side, I did TOMM but the vast majority of the players I see didn't and don't plan to do it. Zariel was already in the plans but this type of content in my view shouldn't be where they put too much effort as a vast part of the gamers won't play it. It should be icing on the cake for players who want to show off their shiny weapons as @asterdahl put it (pretty much at least) and possibly a long term goal for the rest. And talking about shortcomings shows how much elitist some people in this game are.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    vorphied said:

    On the other hand, if the time and effort is not invested in this content, why have anyone working on it at all?



    At minimum, balancing the loot drop tables appropriately should not be a massive diversion of resources.



    As far as additional, special rewards go, making these unbound so that they can circulate in the economy is a way for players who pass on the content to enjoy most of the rewards while those doing the content benefit from the sales.



    Not seeing the issue with this discussion.

    The point is to buy stuff from somebody you need rad, which makes the economy flow in a certain direction and allows a smaller subset of players to control the economy. If you can farm the stuff you need then this benefits more a larger part of the players. But this is a personal point of view from being a guild leader for quite a long time in the past.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • xander#0631 xander Member Posts: 68 Arc User
    from what i undertood (but i may be too optimistic):

    in the roadmap it is shown that the 'evolved rewards' will come next year, so i don't think we should expect something different than the previous mod (in term of dungeon reward), and that is what we have : a new artifact and weapons set.

    i'm not saying that you should not ask for it but they didn't had plans for a list of specific reward in the trial, expecially if next year we will have a rework on rewards and evry content will have the right one.

    it may not have a reason to run it multiple times right now but it will stay the hardest content of the game for one year, until a new trial; so after the rework on reward it should have an incentive to farm.

    right now we have likely 6 month to have sub-end-game player to complete their build an learn the trial, end gamer to spread the way to complete the new trial with minimal setting of stat, low geared player to catch up; so that when it will have the shiny stuff we are ready to farm it.
    reality is what most recognize as true
  • mynaammynaam Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 874 Arc User

    > @mynaam said:

    > (Quote)

    > This is hilarious Bis players are complaining that they are not getting Multiple BIS drops from BIS content when the vast majority of player base will only see this in one year and are still struggling with LOMM. really hilarious



    Sorry to tell you but without us grinding ToMM and posting the”bis” rings on the AH you won’t be hitting your stat caps for ToMM , really you saying “thank you” to us would be appropriate 🤷🏻‍♂️

    So what you are saying is BIS players never need to spend real money just use their privileged to exploit non bis?
    ph33rm3 said:

    > @mynaam said:

    > (Quote)

    > This is hilarious Bis players are complaining that they are not getting Multiple BIS drops from BIS content when the vast majority of player base will only see this in one year and are still struggling with LOMM. really hilarious



    Sorry to tell you but without us grinding ToMM and posting the”bis” rings on the AH you won’t be hitting your stat caps for ToMM , really you saying “thank you” to us would be appropriate 🤷🏻‍♂️

    Comments like that is why I avoid feedback.

    Anything that contradicts what the 1% want is IMMEDIATELY jumped on by people like this and attacked with comments like, "I noticed you don't have TOMM weapons" followed by personal insults and the moderators are nowhere to be seen.

    This leaves CDP , gameplay or preview feedback feeling like walking in a field of landmines and a complete waste of time. The last thing I want to do is thank you. You should be thanking me for my AD.
    You are damn right i don't i am on an active BIS boycott. might be part of reason the uptake was so terrible because i am one of those doing 7 hour training runs unlike you.

    mynaam said:

    I will be the first person to say it. Might as well get the complain train going.

    This trial needs better loot. ToMM rings are not a good enough incentive to continue running it after people have acquired their weapons. I suggest either new pet gear or something else otherwise the trial will be a failure.

    This is hilarious Bis players are complaining that they are not getting Multiple BIS drops from BIS content when the vast majority of player base will only see this in one year and are still struggling with LOMM. really hilarious
    But if the content is not for you (thats fine) why would you have any problem with that content having a reason to run it more times (not neccesary better loot?) You dont want that rich people get richer? they are rich anyway, dont need more. And the weapons are there so the differences between players will get bigger anyway.

    So BIS players will be MEGABIS and people who struggle with LOMM will still be in the same spot.

    I could understand that you want more content for lower power players, but we are not in that boat, the trial is here, will be released the way it is.

    So because the content is not for you, you preffer an useless content instead of an interesting one? You will farm it one time, maybe not now, but you could one day, the same as lot of people is farming TOMM now and they couldnt the first month.

    Is a very poor way of thinking and does nothing for the game or any player.
    Never said i struggle with BIS i am jsut not such an elitist that i don't mind playing with little people
    vorphied said:

    mynaam said:

    I will be the first person to say it. Might as well get the complain train going.

    This trial needs better loot. ToMM rings are not a good enough incentive to continue running it after people have acquired their weapons. I suggest either new pet gear or something else otherwise the trial will be a failure.

    This is hilarious Bis players are complaining that they are not getting Multiple BIS drops from BIS content when the vast majority of player base will only see this in one year and are still struggling with LOMM. really hilarious
    If this content and its rewards don't interest you and don't affect your gameplay, why are you pretending to offer feedback on it?

    Are you that person who watches content they don't like on YouTube so that they can leave negative comments and run away?
    I am more than strong enough to do the content I just feel it is childish to complain that you are just getting 1 BIS item and not BIS items you can use to exploit ad from non BIS

    There are more than BIS players in this game
    It has been 5 YEARS since last new class this is getting ridiculous
    FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base
    Please do master/normal version of dungeons. This way content for all MOD 19 have nothing new for vast majority of player base. Giving an EVENT is not same thing as permanent content for non BIS. As we suggested in CDP
    Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)



  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    edited June 2
    @mynaam I think your ire is misdirected. I'm not sure how anyone can object with a straight face to the development of and discussion regarding end-game content when this is a game that is 99.9% about the early, "casual," and mid-game player. I think you forget that nothing is offered in content like ToMM or Zariel that is considered remotely necessary to play well in the rest of the game.

    Even TIC, the normal dungeon with the highest rating requirement, is both not extremely difficult (some potentially wonky mechanics aside) and not required for completion of other content.

    Your posts and even your signature drip with salt and toxicity. If you want any of your feedback to be taken seriously, you can at least try a different approach.
    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    edited June 2

    vorphied said:

    On the other hand, if the time and effort is not invested in this content, why have anyone working on it at all?



    At minimum, balancing the loot drop tables appropriately should not be a massive diversion of resources.



    As far as additional, special rewards go, making these unbound so that they can circulate in the economy is a way for players who pass on the content to enjoy most of the rewards while those doing the content benefit from the sales.



    Not seeing the issue with this discussion.

    The point is to buy stuff from somebody you need rad, which makes the economy flow in a certain direction and allows a smaller subset of players to control the economy. If you can farm the stuff you need then this benefits more a larger part of the players. But this is a personal point of view from being a guild leader for quite a long time in the past.
    Players are free to participate in the economy or not, to whichever extent they choose. To return briefly to the professions example, when that part of the economy isn't busted and outdated, players who don't participate in all content can have just as much, if not more of an impact on the economy. Is that also unfair?

    I might be missing your point about RAD, because every player has the means to cap this daily if desired and the freedom to spend as they wish. No one has to buy ToMM rings to play the game (frankly, you don't even need ToMM rings inside of ToMM, if we want to be really picky about it), and no one needs the artifact set, either. If anything, the farming of ToMM by the smaller subset of the population has made these items accessible and affordable to the entire player base, allowing them to choose whether or not they wish to participate.

    Perhaps our viewpoints are just very different, but I don't see the issue. Besides, none of this touches on the point that the content will have a very short shelf life if motivation to continue running it (and to help others learn it) is absent.
    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,239 Arc User
    edited June 2
    vorphied said:



    Perhaps our viewpoints are just very different, but I don't see the issue. Besides, none of this touches on the point that the content will half a very short shelf life if motivation to continue running it (and to help others learn it) is absent.

    Neither does it touch on the fact that by necessity, content with higher requirements needs to have other returns otherwise players will never be able to recoup their initial investment to get into the content in the first place. If every single piece in the game required you to spend an additional 30m AD in order to run it, I wonder how many of these complainers here would be upset that they were unable to make back what they invested to run it.

    They seem to have a very warped view on how much AD the people running this content have. Most of the people running ToMM don't have 100's of millions, they are probably somewhere in the 10-30 million range, with a couple of outliers. Asking them to invest so much into their character when they don't have that much to begin with is ridiculous. I know when my group completed ToMM I had to help some people gear up their characters, because they didn't have the resources to do it themselves.
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User

    Looking at the rest of content in the module my feeling is that they want us to farm other stuff (hunts and Zariel's missions) before jumping into the trial. The trial is meant to be run only for the weapons at the end of the module's content )and possibly with the Blessed set). This module seems to be meant for a wider audience than that of the endgamers jumping straight into the trial as soon as they can. Personally I second it as in my guild almost nobody is going to jump into Zariel straight and basically everybody will work thorugh the rest of the content.

    Here is a novel concept for you. Why can't both the campaign and the trial be rewarding? Really bizarre idea I know. It totally has to be a case of 1 vs the other doesn't it?
    Because end-gamers corner the ad market once again with items from the trial? I was an end-gamer until SKT and that's what I saw.
    What did you see exactly when you were "an end-gamer"? That giving players options and not treating them like toddlers hurts the game? (Amusingly enough that's more often than not true in game dev, but I don't think it applies to an MMO)


    Why should "normal" gamers pay millions to end-gamers for items they can farm on their own while having fun?

    They... shouldn't? If you can farm an item and have fun farming it, why use the AH and not just... farm it?
    It doesn't "corner" anyone; It just gives the ones who either can't farm it or don't have fun farming it, accesibility to said items.

    It definitely does corner the market. If you don't see that it's your fault. have fun with the new setup.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    edited June 2
    Well, compare gathering 100 million ad and farming it a lower difficulty level than endgame and you'll see that there is a vast difference in the time and effort needed. I fully agree with @asterdahl, the top end stuff should be a shiny reward for those who can get it, farmable stuff should be less difficult to get. That's it. By the way I will stop here, not to derail the thread into a pointless discussion.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • viraaalviraaal Member Posts: 69 Arc User
    .
    nooneatza said:

    Two things:

    1st:
    I don't know if this one is feedback or a bug report since i do not know if this is intended or not.

    Completed Zariel's challenge and dropped a weapon, we realised it just drops for one person in the group and that's all, no need/greed possible, whoever gets lucky gets a weapon drop

    If weapons are supposed to be like that (one per run, and only a random person gets it), it's a horrible way to make your players run the content, and goes in contradiction with what you guys implied above, that you don't really want players to run the same content on repeat.
    So you could bring back the need/greed format that ToMM had OR if you really are stubborn about it make it so that the lucky guy that gets the drop gets a weapon for his class.


    2nd:
    I also would imagine that you guys heard about this but will post regardless, as most posts in this thread are in regard to the lack of rewards.

    The runes mechanic (both x4 and x8) is not consistent, at times it lags the game for everyone and deals 5+ tics of damage to everyone instead of just one even if the mechanic is executed perfectly

    Regarding the weapons only appearing for 1 person, we assumed it would get changed when the loot was added, as ToMM had this same thing but it was changed when they also added the rings to the rewards, but considering asterdahl commented regarding rewards not being changed, then this might be another issues that we are not talking about that we should be.
  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User

    Well, compare gathering 100 million ad and farming it a lower difficulty level than endgame and you'll see that there is a vast difference in the time and effort needed. I fully agree with @asterdahl, the top end stuff should be a shiny reward for those who can get it, farmable stuff should be less difficult to get. That's it. By the way I will stop here, not to derail the thread into a pointless discussion.

    It's okay if you want to stop, but I'll add something else because the issue of rewards specifically in this content and how they might be balanced is still relevant.

    Farming for AD at a lower difficulty level is appropriately less consistent and slower, on average.

    To @thefabricant 's earlier point, is it unfair that players who already did that (and/or else paid significant monetary support to the game) and have invested those resources, along with their time, into being able to complete the highest tier of content lack increased expectation of valuable rewards and market profit as a result? I would say not.

    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • the1truehunterthe1truehunter Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 127 Arc User
    The challenge it is supposed to be fun but at the current state playing barbarian sentinel here it is just frustrating. I have to do everything perfectly regarding my blocks/timing/rotations otherwise me or my team ends in death. This is not the way I would like to play a game. Even if I know the mechanics and I do my best, one little mistake may end the run for everyone in our party. The biggest problems are in second phase because the positions of the shades and their sync the fact that you don t have too much time to switch inbetween. Sentinels doesn t generate enough threat with their encounters to be able to get aggro back like other tank classes do so if I screw it up, I will have to wait 17 seconds to get the aggro back. It is just not fun for me. Once I reached phase 4 I already had 4 skulls because of the wite noises/daunting lights. With TOMM I have so much fun still after 350 runs + in the past few months. I am waiting for a change that will relax a bit the situation and give the challenge the flavour of joy while I am running it. Tanking here is a huge responsability as the healing also. I have no reason to enter there because the set bonus for the new weapons doesn`t suits my needs as a tank player and also I heard that chest loots are same as in TOMM. .









  • d3cepti0n#1453 d3cepti0n Member Posts: 73 Arc User

    Well, compare gathering 100 million ad and farming it a lower difficulty level than endgame and you'll see that there is a vast difference in the time and effort needed. I fully agree with @asterdahl, the top end stuff should be a shiny reward for those who can get it, farmable stuff should be less difficult to get. That's it. By the way I will stop here, not to derail the thread into a pointless discussion.

    Make that comparison. Did you reach a result? Did you find the easier method of the two for you? Good. Do that. Having the option to do the other doesn't force you into it and definitely doesn't corner the AH. If items are too expensive, they won't sell, and the price will drop. If they are too cheap, they will sell fast (high demand), and supplies will drop, making the price go up. That's the beauty of a player driven economy.
    Piece by piece.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,280 Arc User
    fisenfis said:

    Fully agree with you. To be honest in the last mod there has been too much effort in providing content (and rewards) for endgamers and way less for more casual players. The top end dungeon/trial should feel like an achievement, not something you farm. Farmable stuff should be one step below.

    So just because the content is for endgamers the loot should not even be looked at? How would you like it if running randoms gave no rough AD, no seals and absolutely no drops? Would you still run it because you might be running content you havent completed before? And would you keep running it? If the endgame is not desireable then what is there to work towards? The reality of the situation is that most endgame groups have already stated they will not run the new trial if the loot does not improve. Is this not enough of a reason to shake things up?

    Instead of being afraid that players outside of the endgame category will get upset over the new trial and its rewards, why not cater to both groups and make both versions of the trial desierable and farmable? Why does it always have to be one way or the other? As someone stated, the trial is beautiful and a tough challenge, but it kind of goes down the drain when there is no inscentive to keep running it. I believe I speak for a lot of players when I say this needs to be addressed because many feel discouraged and disappointed by the last statement that was made in regards to the loot.

    @asterdahl
    part of the problem with the non end gamers being like don't let them endgamers get anything good, is that I think it's hard for them to imagine ever being geared enough for this content. people are generally ever tolerant of taxes and the rich and what not because they can envision themselves there down the road, but I think the bar is so high that the average gamer can't see themselves being able to EVER afford the 60 to 100 mil that it takes to be decked out. although honestly that bar isn' treally that high anymore. enchants are going to tank after mod 19, and leg mounts are already tanking as are insignias. imo there were be a lot more people ready to do tomm at least after mod 19 drops and maybe attitudes towards rewards will change a little as people realize they can do it now.


  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,280 Arc User
    edited June 3

    There's also a difficulty with people being able to see that just because something doesn't benefit ME directly right now it can still be good in an overall sense. It's hard for people to admit that it's okay for something to give good loot if they may not be able to do it because games like this push the individual's improvement. "You should do this content to make your character better. You HAVE to do this content to get these weapons." Well, WTF, I can't do this content so that's not fair is the immediate response. It doesn't even matter if the weapons themselves are required for the previous content we need to run. The creation of the weapons and placing them in the trial means that people need to run it to be competitive. A weapon isn't a "shiny reward". A weapon is what you need to upgrade your character in this game. It is, for all intents and purposes, required even if it isn't physically required. (That's a culture/attitude thing which maybe needs to be addressed somehow?) A "shiny reward" would be exclusive transmutes or mounts.

    On the flip side, it's hard to *not* be bitter when you're continually behind the curve and can't catch up. Because it *can* be really hard to get there, and some people forget that which doesn't help. Being excluded isn't fun. They're still trying to rank up enchantments and new artifacts to get in. By the time they get there, everyone else is done, and the goal posts have moved again. So they work toward that only to show up after it's over. Repeat ad nauseum, and yeah, people are bitter. I don't even know if there's a solution to this problem. I'm just calling it like I see it.

    Regardless, this trial should have better loot commensurate with the difficulty, even if I can't personally partake. In fact, I probably won't be able to because getting to the HP requirement is not going to be possible any time soon for me, and if as expected the replayability isn't there I'll have a hard time ever getting in by the time I can. It would be nice for that loot to be unbound for those of us that can't/won't, but even if it's bound, there needs to be worthwhile gains for the people who DO run it.

    as muhc as I am not fond of the solution I suspect you will never have to upgrade another enchant again. I believe that enchants are going to be cheap and plentiful as of mod 19 ebcause of the tradebar change. insignias and leg mounts are also becoming massively cheaper. the only thing left that is going to be a little pricy is comps and weapon and armor enchants.


  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,010 Arc User
    edited June 3
    A bit late, but I get why they wanted to make the new content non mandatory. It's super hard so lads like mynaam or whatever will have a problem about not being able to run this content because they're not bis, and it would make the game more grind-tastic.

    It also further splits bis from non bis players.

    On the other, the game strives on endgame, because people never want to downgrade. So this is sorta like endgame players don't want it because no upgrade path - just side grade, but it's too hard for non endgame players to run without endgame players support.

    It's catch 22.
    Maybe give it random guaranteed bta epics such as mounts and companions, or at least high chances.
    Doesn't ruin the economy completely, gives hopefully good items that are worthy of running the content for, so all groups want to run it. Bta so the items are also available for alts.
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User

    A bit late, but I get why they wanted to make the new content non mandatory. It's super hard so lads like mynaam or whatever will have a problem about not being able to run this content because they're not his, and it would make the game more grind-tastic.



    It also further splits bis from non bis players.



    On the other, the game strives on endgame, because people never want to downgrade. So this is sorta like endgame players don't want it because no upgrade path - just side grade, but it's too hard for non endgame players to run without endgame players support.



    It's catch 22.

    Maybe give it random guaranteed bta epics such as mounts and companions, or at least high chances.

    Doesn't ruin the economy completely, gives hopefully good items that are worthy of running the content for, so all groups want to run it. Bta so the items are also available for alts.

    I think you get the point. There's a vast majority of players who are stuck in grind at the moment. There's a dicothomy between the content released and the players' level (items, ability, time to be devoted to the game) that they are trying to address. Maybe they are not doing it in the right way but at least it seems they are starting to understand it and taking action.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
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