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OFFICIAL M19: Zariel's Challenge Feedback

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  • sax1993sax1993 Member Posts: 123 Arc User
    I would still try and add SOMETHING to the dungeon to make it worthwhile to continue farming it even after we get our weapons. As I have seen others mentioned off of this forum. When we help other players get their Lionheart set from ToMM we are still getting ToMM loot in the meantime. Once I get my weapons and there aren't any other drops to get from this Trial that I cannot get anywhere else I don't even want to help other players do it it's not worth my time and effort teaching people this trial. Also if mastercraft is making a comeback those weapons will be BIS, their set bonus is bar none especially if they will have the same weapon damage compared to the Trial's, if the weapons do not have the same weapon damage you're only going to continue driving the end game players away from your game.
    Main: Sax Cleric (Arbiter) [Xbox and PC]
    Alts:
    Saxy Healz Paladin (Oathkeeper) [Xbox and PC]
    Saxon Ranger (Warden)
    Yuri Wizard (Thaumaturge)



    Member of the guild: Legacy (Xbox) and Strawberry Yakuza (PC)
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 858 Arc User
    edited June 1
    @asterdahl you were reticent to add BoE loot to ToMM but finally changed it according to feedback.

    It worked very well and still today, there are training groups for ToMM and groups running it even if the prizes are very low.

    Why wouldnt you want the same for the new trial? Is so problematic to give players rewards? The best content and satisfaction in this game was like this, since the first dungeons and CN. Then the game started a spiral of Binding items and most of the dedicated players lost interest.... until ToMM arrived.

    I really try to understand your decision but I cant. The ONLY reason that comes to my mind, is that players who farm this trials dont spend a dime in the game. I doubt is the case, and still, if you can sell the items, other players will buy that items, some with real money.
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garic PvE Paladin
    Caturday Survivor
    Elemental Evil Survivor
    Undermontain Survivor
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    fisenfis said:

    Fully agree with you. To be honest in the last mod there has been too much effort in providing content (and rewards) for endgamers and way less for more casual players. The top end dungeon/trial should feel like an achievement, not something you farm. Farmable stuff should be one step below.

    So just because the content is for endgamers the loot should not even be looked at? How would you like it if running randoms gave no rough AD, no seals and absolutely no drops? Would you still run it because you might be running content you havent completed before? And would you keep running it? If the endgame is not desireable then what is there to work towards? The reality of the situation is that most endgame groups have already stated they will not run the new trial if the loot does not improve. Is this not enough of a reason to shake things up?

    Instead of being afraid that players outside of the endgame category will get upset over the new trial and its rewards, why not cater to both groups and make both versions of the trial desierable and farmable? Why does it always have to be one way or the other? As someone stated, the trial is beautiful and a tough challenge, but it kind of goes down the drain when there is no inscentive to keep running it. I believe I speak for a lot of players when I say this needs to be addressed because many feel discouraged and disappointed by the last statement that was made in regards to the loot.

    @asterdahl
    The endgame would be desirable anyway. Hist the farming side would be a tad below and more people will be able to farm it instead of the usual elite
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • tepes#1182 tepes Member Posts: 24 Arc User
    To continue the dialogue about the proposed rewards and to add on to @thefabricant post - I'm in an end game guild and the general agreement is, if the current rewards make it to live, to get the weapons for guild, friends, alts and head back to ToMM. I think there have been multiple valid suggestions which won't impact power creep made which will add some desire to replay the trial. I do hope that you're listening.
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User

    To continue the dialogue about the proposed rewards and to add on to @thefabricant post - I'm in an end game guild and the general agreement is, if the current rewards make it to live, to get the weapons for guild, friends, alts and head back to ToMM. I think there have been multiple valid suggestions which won't impact power creep made which will add some desire to replay the trial. I do hope that you're listening.

    Which is pretty much the target according to @asterdahl
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • jbball92#2946 jbball92 Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    > @mynaam said:
    > (Quote)
    > This is hilarious Bis players are complaining that they are not getting Multiple BIS drops from BIS content when the vast majority of player base will only see this in one year and are still struggling with LOMM. really hilarious

    Sorry to tell you but without us grinding ToMM and posting the”bis” rings on the AH you won’t be hitting your stat caps for ToMM , really you saying “thank you” to us would be appropriate 🤷🏻‍♂️
  • ph33rm3ph33rm3 Member Posts: 513 Arc User

    > @mynaam said:

    > (Quote)

    > This is hilarious Bis players are complaining that they are not getting Multiple BIS drops from BIS content when the vast majority of player base will only see this in one year and are still struggling with LOMM. really hilarious



    Sorry to tell you but without us grinding ToMM and posting the”bis” rings on the AH you won’t be hitting your stat caps for ToMM , really you saying “thank you” to us would be appropriate 🤷🏻‍♂️

    Comments like that is why I avoid feedback.

    Anything that contradicts what the 1% want is IMMEDIATELY jumped on by people like this and attacked with comments like, "I noticed you don't have TOMM weapons" followed by personal insults and the moderators are nowhere to be seen.

    This leaves CDP , gameplay or preview feedback feeling like walking in a field of landmines and a complete waste of time. The last thing I want to do is thank you. You should be thanking me for my AD.
  • darthpotaterdarthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 858 Arc User
    edited June 1
    mynaam said:

    I will be the first person to say it. Might as well get the complain train going.

    This trial needs better loot. ToMM rings are not a good enough incentive to continue running it after people have acquired their weapons. I suggest either new pet gear or something else otherwise the trial will be a failure.

    This is hilarious Bis players are complaining that they are not getting Multiple BIS drops from BIS content when the vast majority of player base will only see this in one year and are still struggling with LOMM. really hilarious
    But if the content is not for you (thats fine) why would you have any problem with that content having a reason to run it more times (not neccesary better loot?) You dont want that rich people get richer? they are rich anyway, dont need more. And the weapons are there so the differences between players will get bigger anyway.

    So BIS players will be MEGABIS and people who struggle with LOMM will still be in the same spot.

    I could understand that you want more content for lower power players, but we are not in that boat, the trial is here, will be released the way it is.

    So because the content is not for you, you preffer an useless content instead of an interesting one? You will farm it one time, maybe not now, but you could one day, the same as lot of people is farming TOMM now and they couldnt the first month.

    Is a very poor way of thinking and does nothing for the game or any player.
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garic PvE Paladin
    Caturday Survivor
    Elemental Evil Survivor
    Undermontain Survivor
  • vorphiedvorphied Member Posts: 1,870 Arc User
    mynaam said:

    I will be the first person to say it. Might as well get the complain train going.

    This trial needs better loot. ToMM rings are not a good enough incentive to continue running it after people have acquired their weapons. I suggest either new pet gear or something else otherwise the trial will be a failure.

    This is hilarious Bis players are complaining that they are not getting Multiple BIS drops from BIS content when the vast majority of player base will only see this in one year and are still struggling with LOMM. really hilarious
    If this content and its rewards don't interest you and don't affect your gameplay, why are you pretending to offer feedback on it?

    Are you that person who watches content they don't like on YouTube so that they can leave negative comments and run away?
    Sacrilege - Warlock
    Contagion - Cleric
    Testament - Wizard
    Pestilence - Ranger
    Dominion - Paladin

    NIGHTSWATCH

  • hades#2194 hades Member Posts: 37 Arc User
    edited June 7
    .
    Post edited by hades#2194 on
  • mongol69mongol69 Member Posts: 322 Arc User
    edited June 2
    Players primarily run content for loot. If the content difficulty doesn't have relevant loot, it's dead and no one wants to touch it. After a few months the limited value of loot in cr dropped, so it pretty much became a ghost town. Not many wanted to touch it, especially with all the broken mechanics. It's viability quickly ran out as relevant content.

    Two things are very likely to happen with the new trial, players will get bored quickly and venture off to play other games with lackluster content and incentive. Then, the only relevance it will have is reinforcing toxic behavior and people "selling" spots for weapon runs.
    It's easy enough to stomp out toxic behavior and "selling" tomm runs with training and carry groups, since the cost of running is recoverable by everyone in a group...from relevant and desired loot.

    Good deeds and feelings of accomplishment for a bauable prize rarely motivates people to invest time and money, or help other players without a chance to recoup the cost. Not sure if your target audience will invest in this ideology.
  • mongol69mongol69 Member Posts: 322 Arc User
    edited June 2
    Also, why would devs expect players to be happy going through the effort with this weapon set bonus that is unbalanced and primarily benefitting an arcanist and arbiter over all other classes?
  • gweddrygweddry Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 240 Arc User
    Even now, there are a lot of PvP players that don't want to or can't (e.g. only have a PvP build, which is completely different from a PvE one and requires no companions) run TOMM, which puts them at a serious disadvantage. This will get worse with the new weapon set from this trial.

    As has been mentioned before, the weapons (and all other gear) from the trial should be unbound. Cosmetics like transmutes or vanity pets can remain bound. That way everyone is happy -- PvE players get AD and fun from running the content, PvP players go on playing PvP without needing to worry about being at a disadvantage, and more AD sinks are created in the AH. On top of that, changing the binding status of the weapon set is (hopefully) effortless.
  • tassedethe13tassedethe13 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 781 Arc User
    edited June 2
    Just to quote my self experience:

    In my alliance a new player level 74 wanted to run malabog but had hard times to find people. I joined him and we ran the dungeon. Then he said "What piece of stuff can I get here to improve myself ?", I was shocked because I only was able to tell him "Nothing, you are making this dungeon for nothing". This guy was right, what's the point of running something if you can't improve your stuff or money, or whatever... Will he run again malabog? I bet not.

    Same thing will happen with Zariel + The threshold to be able to run it is very expensive.
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    Looking at the rest of content in the module my feeling is that they want us to farm other stuff (hunts and Zariel's missions) before jumping into the trial. The trial is meant to be run only for the weapons at the end of the module's content )and possibly with the Blessed set). This module seems to be meant for a wider audience than that of the endgamers jumping straight into the trial as soon as they can. Personally I second it as in my guild almost nobody is going to jump into Zariel straight and basically everybody will work thorugh the rest of the content.
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,239 Arc User

    Looking at the rest of content in the module my feeling is that they want us to farm other stuff (hunts and Zariel's missions) before jumping into the trial. The trial is meant to be run only for the weapons at the end of the module's content )and possibly with the Blessed set). This module seems to be meant for a wider audience than that of the endgamers jumping straight into the trial as soon as they can. Personally I second it as in my guild almost nobody is going to jump into Zariel straight and basically everybody will work thorugh the rest of the content.

    Here is a novel concept for you. Why can't both the campaign and the trial be rewarding? Really bizarre idea I know. It totally has to be a case of 1 vs the other doesn't it?
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    edited June 2

    Looking at the rest of content in the module my feeling is that they want us to farm other stuff (hunts and Zariel's missions) before jumping into the trial. The trial is meant to be run only for the weapons at the end of the module's content )and possibly with the Blessed set). This module seems to be meant for a wider audience than that of the endgamers jumping straight into the trial as soon as they can. Personally I second it as in my guild almost nobody is going to jump into Zariel straight and basically everybody will work thorugh the rest of the content.

    Here is a novel concept for you. Why can't both the campaign and the trial be rewarding? Really bizarre idea I know. It totally has to be a case of 1 vs the other doesn't it?
    Because end-gamers corner the ad market once again with items from the trial? I was an end-gamer until SKT and that's what I saw. Why should "normal" gamers pay millions to end-gamers for items they can farm on their own while having fun?
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • gabrieldourdengabrieldourden Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,212 Arc User
    I think you pretty much showed your agenda. Have fun!
    Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
    Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,239 Arc User
    edited June 2

    I think you pretty much showed your agenda. Have fun!

    Yeah, my agenda is for content to not be dead on arrival. I said exactly the same things about IC and its amazing "drop pool" and it wasn't even aimed at me (the devs responsible for it literally told us, "this piece of content is not aimed at you"). Guess what, IC is pretty much dead and was dead when it came out, but hey, the only people campaigning for the content that was aimed at YOU to be worthwhile were also the "evil" people who are campaigning for their own content to be worthwhile. The people that you are now trying to shaft. The irony is through the roof.

    Imagine believing that because you can't do a piece of content nobody else should be rewarded for it.
  • werdandi#8366 werdandi Member Posts: 304 Arc User
    edited June 2

    Yeah, my agenda is for content to not be dead on arrival. I said exactly the same things about IC and its amazing "drop pool" and it wasn't even aimed at me (the devs responsible for it literally told us, "this piece of content is not aimed at you"). Guess what, IC is pretty much dead and was dead when it came out, but hey, the only people campaigning for the content that was aimed at YOU to be worthwhile were also the "evil" people who are campaigning for their own content to be worthwhile. The people that you are now trying to shaft. The irony is through the roof

    I have an objection : IC is what make people not having access to Tomm stay in the game. People with good stats but not Tomm-ready or not having a big friend list to find a Tomm group (or not knowing/using the custom channels). This represents the vast majority of not-so-badly geared players.
    Sorry for the offtopic but of course developers also have to create new dungeon or trial content for the biggest pool of players to retain them. I was hopeful on the baby version of Zariel's challenge but it seems it will be only a story-mode :(

  • wilbur626wilbur626 Member Posts: 388 Arc User
    The idea @thefabricant posted about having the trial drop unbound companion gear is excellent! I would gladly throw my AD at the endgame grinders to get out of the repetitive hell that is ME farming for alts.

    Now that legendary mounts have been replaced by mythic quality ones, why not have the older legendaries drop in the trial aswell?

    Farmable gear/mounts = win/win for everyone
  • tom#6998 tom Member Posts: 938 Arc User

    Yeah, my agenda is for content to not be dead on arrival. I said exactly the same things about IC and its amazing "drop pool" and it wasn't even aimed at me (the devs responsible for it literally told us, "this piece of content is not aimed at you"). Guess what, IC is pretty much dead and was dead when it came out, but hey, the only people campaigning for the content that was aimed at YOU to be worthwhile were also the "evil" people who are campaigning for their own content to be worthwhile. The people that you are now trying to shaft. The irony is through the roof

    I have an objection : IC is what make people not having access to Tomm stay in the game. People with good stats but not Tomm-ready or not having a big friend list to find a Tomm group (or not knowing/using the custom channels). This represents the vast majority of not-so-badly geared players.
    Sorry for the offtopic but of course developers also have to create new dungeon or trial content for the biggest pool of players to retain them. I was hopeful on the baby version of Zariel's challenge but it seems it will be only a story-mode :(

    do you agree that the loot in IC is pretty lackluster and it could have been done alot better?
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