By the way, the siderelated issue: The main reason why almost "no reward worths anything" is because everyone is expected to get everything by themself, thus there is no demand to buy anything from an other player.
But that's not exactly true, because there are worthy things in game:
1, General consumables like ES from Dread ring lair always has a decent price, because some player just refuse to grind it and have to buy it. Normally, it should not worth to be done by endgame players, but it was after AD conversion became accwide until ToMM.
The above mentioned problem is even bigger with the utility slot RP/gold generating enchants that integrates getting RP/gold into everything you do, which significantly devalues it for everyone. It essentially farms itself.
2, Ultra low drop chance highly sought item like (the Orcus' wand used to be or) now the alpha compy from juma bag. Realistically, you couldn't just get them, you had to buy them from those who had it dropped for them. It's actually fairer than people credit it for, because it's so inefficient to force success that even endgame players just farm up the cost and pay the random lucky person for their alpha compy. Even if you are the lucky person, you either take your lottery winning and cash it or get a hugely cost-inefficient upgrade.
3, There are endgame content which hard-limits who can do it, thus generating demand.
4, There are demanded items to do the endgame stuff or as an investment to shorten the runtime. Or, there would be if professions weren't been trivialized and AI campaign boxes were not accbound. But as example, black ice overload enchant was and still can be used for ToMM and worths a lot, but generally can be farmed by anyone. And I guess if you spared the summer foods till now, you can surcharge people who ran out.
Edit: Also on the 4, having consumables divided into very few category and even fewer you can buy. I think making players apply more and more significant consumables would not just let people have something to sell, but help people make leaps in progression if stuck.
> @theraxin#5169 said: > By the way, the siderelated issue: The main reason why almost "no reward worths anything" is because everyone is expected to get everything by themself, thus there is no demand to buy anything from an other player. > > But that's not exactly true, because there are worthy things in game: > > 1, General consumables like ES from Dread ring lair always has a decent price, because some player just refuse to grind it and have to buy it. Normally, it should not worth to be done by endgame players, but it was after AD conversion became accwide until ToMM. > > The above mentioned problem is even bigger with the utility slot RP/gold generating enchants that integrates getting RP/gold into everything you do, which significantly devalues it for everyone. It essentially farms itself. > > > 2, Ultra low drop chance highly sought item like (the Orcus' wand used to be or) now the alpha compy from juma bag. Realistically, you couldn't just get them, you had to buy them from those who had it dropped for them. It's actually fairer than people credit it for, because it's so inefficient to force success that even endgame players just farm up the cost and pay the random lucky person for their alpha compy. Even if you are the lucky person, you either take your lottery winning and cash it or get a hugely cost-inefficient upgrade. > > 3, There are endgame content which hard-limits who can do it, thus generating demand. > > 4, There are demanded items to do the endgame stuff or as an investment to shorten the runtime. Or, there would be if professions weren't been trivialized and AI campaign boxes were not accbound. But as example, black ice overload enchant was and still can be used for ToMM and worths a lot, but generally can be farmed by anyone. And I guess if you spared the summer foods till now, you can surcharge people who ran out. > > Edit: Also on the 4, having consumables divided into very few category and even fewer you can buy. I think making players apply more and more significant consumables would not just let people have something to sell, but help people make leaps in progression if stuck.
You can get alpha compy from juma bags? Frick, that's goooood.
More of this, Devs pls
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
edited June 2020
Put a delay from phase 3 to phase 4 transition because sometimes you have for example hypothermia on tank ( or other mechanic) and you cant go to the angel to tank it.
This issue appears maybe every 20-25th Judgement. The animation that shows Zariel on his knees is not shown. Zariel stands simply there, doing nothing and then Judgement hits.
This is a great way to filter out the trash of this game that has been rotting for a long time now and show peoples true colors.
So when are you leaving?
Never Why would I, the games heading in a direction which I have been wanting for a long time. On top of that People like you are quitting and/or moved on to other games (𝓢𝖍𝖆𝖗𝖕𝖊𝖉𝖌𝖊Today at 3:10 AM natsu etc all playing other games now
> @xavior44 said: > (Quote) > Never Why would I, the games heading in a direction which I have been wanting for a long time. On top of that People like you are quitting and/or moved on to other games > (𝓢𝖍𝖆𝖗𝖕𝖊𝖉𝖌𝖊Today at 3:10 AM > natsu etc all playing other games now > > TBH neverwinter has never been SO good for me
Put a delay from phase 3 to phase 4 transition because sometimes you have for example hypothermia on tank ( or other mechanic) and you cant go to the angel to tank it.
from what ive heard the devs say, you are supposed to manage the phase transitions so you dont run into such problems.
> Never Why would I, the games heading in a direction which I have been wanting for a long time. On top of that People like you are quitting and/or moved on to other games
Post patch, Zariel's runes still bug out - where you get hit multiple times even though all runes are occupied. Audio cues still overlap each other in Phase 3. Phase 2 -> Phase 3 transition, the entire screen darkens like you're about to fail but returns to normal during phase 3 start. Is this to hide the skybox change? Interesting that you removed the lip in phase 3 but nothing really exploits it too much - Zariel lunges far more often than she does wingflap. Only time people fall off is when they get pushed off
That would imply that this person had been victimized in some way.
I haven’t seen anything in this conversation that would seem to justify the way they came in here carrying that kind of baggage.
Not really, this being the internet, it is enough for them to simply FEEL victimized Any type of strong response on the internet has a, as near to for the difference to be inconsequential, 100% chance to step on someones toes. Fact of online life..
And here's a little bit of an eye opener for you, the people you are hurting by advocating for this isn't players like me, there is literally nothing you can do in this game to "hurt" a player like me short of banning my account. Its hurting little people who want to be able to run hard content, but can't quite afford to do so.
I'm not interested in hurting you or anyone else. All I'm interested in is that we are all operating under the same set of rules.
Here is a story. Back in Mod 10, when FBI was the endgame dungeon (and despite what you say, most groups considered it to be a very challenging dungeon), it was simply expected that DPS players would have the Demon Lord set. That meant getting the Shard of Orcus' Wand, which was at the time a rare drop from CN and very expensive. It did not matter if a player actually *needed* the Demon Lord set to complete the dungeon. You wouldn't be allowed in the door unless you had the set. So I spent the 3 million AD - nearly all I had - to buy the Shard so that I could participate in groups trying to do FBI. Which was a much larger proportion of my wealth at the time than 30 million AD is for you currently. It was a risky investment, because for all I knew at the time, the Demon Lord set could have been nerfed or made obsolete in Mod 11 and then I would be stuck with a very pricey investment that would be far less valuable. And there was zero expectation that I would ever recoup the cost of that Shard by doing FBI, or any other dungeon for that matter. But that was what I had to do at the time.
Those are the rules that I operate under. Why should those rules not apply to you? If you and other endgamers have to buy a 30 million AD piece of gear to get in the door of Zariel's Challenge, then go ahead and buy it. And if you can't afford it, then find other ways to make AD so that you can then buy it. Why should the dungeon reward you for that investment? You are making a permanent upgrade to your character. In the real world, if you get for example a nice haircut, there is no expectation that in some future time you will "recoup the cost" of that haircut in some way.
Now if you want to change how those rules operate, then I am all for it. I absolutely want to change how loot works. I'm willing to listen to any reasonable idea. But whatever change that occurs, should be applied to all. Not just to endgamers in the endgame trial.
I did tons of FBI runs when it was released, and many of them with DPS not wearing Demonlord set. Why was that a req in the groups you joined ?
I did not have the benefit of a dedicated group of friends which would run the dungeon with me at times when I was consistently available. I had to rely on public channels for most of my runs.
In the real world, if you get for example a nice haircut, there is no expectation that in some future time you will "recoup the cost" of that haircut in some way.
If you want to make an analogy, at least make a more appropriate one. They're not buying fashion to get into ZC, they're buying equipment necessary to run the dungeon. So for the analogy, they're buying items necessary to the running of their business, like machinery or equipment. I guarantee if I was a farmer and I drop a couple hundred thousand on a fancy new tractor so I can maintain additional acreage of crops, I *absolutely* expect for that to to pay itself off and to increase my ability to make money after it's paid off. If go to the expense of buying additional land and machinery and if I do not see an increase in profit, then I have completely wasted my time and money and shouldn't have done it. So yes, even in the real world, it IS expected that an investment brings returns. Is this an argument you really want to stake your hat on? Do you really want new content to be designed such that it should never be run by anyone at all because of petty jealously that someone else has more AD than you and can do something you can't? Because I don't. Even if I'll never get it, I think that it should absolutely have worthwhile rewards.
Back in Mod 10, when FBI was the endgame dungeon (and despite what you say, most groups considered it to be a very challenging dungeon), it was simply expected that DPS players would have the Demon Lord set. That meant getting the Shard of Orcus' Wand, which was at the time a rare drop from CN and very expensive. It did not matter if a player actually *needed* the Demon Lord set to complete the dungeon. You wouldn't be allowed in the door unless you had the set. So I spent the 3 million AD - nearly all I had - to buy the Shard so that I could participate in groups trying to do FBI.
So, you only got into FBI because you were allowed to purchase a Shard from someone who got the drop in CN. Which means, that if the old devs had believed in this argument of good loot shouldn't drop in dungeons because that's not fair to the people who won't get that drop, you wouldn't have gotten a Shard. Which means then you would never have gotten into FBI at all because you'd still have been farming CN for a bound shard. Restricting dungeon drops would have slowed down your progression and kept you from participating in newer content. So see, having the dungeon drop unbound loot for other people to buy actually helps *everyone* out. It helps out the people who run the dungeon by allowing them to sell things for AD. It helps out the people who run the dungeon but don't get the drop they need because they can farm the AD to buy it. Like YOU did. It helps the people who just hate that dungeon and would rather buy it. By your own argument, YOU SHOULD WANT there to be good, unbound loot in ZC.
I agree with what Vorphied posted earlier. I'm not seeing any game legitimate reasons why the loot from ZC shouldn't be appropriate per the challenge of the dungeon. All I'm seeing is a lot of people complaining it's unfair that they won't get it because the dungeon will be too hard for them to get into. That's why unbound loot *should* exist. Then you can get it, and you won't have to spend the 30 mil to prep your toon and another 30 mil on scrolls to learn it. AD saved. That's certainly how I hope to be getting the stuff from ZC cause goodness knows I don't have that much AD.
So, you only got into FBI because you were allowed to purchase a Shard from someone who got the drop in CN. Which means, that if the old devs had believed in this argument of good loot shouldn't drop in dungeons because that's not fair to the people who won't get that drop, you wouldn't have gotten a Shard. Which means then you would never have gotten into FBI at all because you'd still have been farming CN for a bound shard. Restricting dungeon drops would have slowed down your progression and kept you from participating in newer content. So see, having the dungeon drop unbound loot for other people to buy actually helps *everyone* out. It helps out the people who run the dungeon by allowing them to sell things for AD. It helps out the people who run the dungeon but don't get the drop they need because they can farm the AD to buy it. Like YOU did. It helps the people who just hate that dungeon and would rather buy it. By your own argument, YOU SHOULD WANT there to be good, unbound loot in ZC.
I am totally in favor of good, unbound loot. I am not in favor of good, unbound loot only for a certain class of players who believe themselves to be the so-called "elite" while the rest of us have to do ETOS for the 10,000,000th time for nothing more than RAD.
As I said, if you have an idea for how to reform the loot system, I will happily consider it. When that system is implemented, let's apply it to all players among all classes. But until that time, let's not treat the "elite" as a special class of players who "deserve" it more than the hoi polloi toiling in the 99%.
So as things stand *right now*, your motivation for doing ZC is the exact same motivation as mine for doing ZC: for getting the best weapons in the game, and if that isn't enough, then tough noogies.
I'm still not seeing an *actual* reason in there for there to not be rewards in ZC other than you don't want them to be there. Whether the rewards are weapons, rings, gear, enchantments, or fashion, everyone has the same ability to choose their motivation to run it. And adding more drops means more people will have more motivation to run it. Which is what people are wanting. It needs to have more motivation to run it, or it's just a waste of developer and player time alike. You're just being sour because someone other than you is more likely to profit. But if you want those profits, you can put in the same work. Max your toon out and get to it with them.
By now, regardless of arguments and their validity, giving in to the "demands" for additional, tradeable, loot would be perceived as pandering by a significant part of the playerbase. Not sure that with the state of the game that is something that can be afforded. But I guess we will find out..
I for one am already fascinated with the developments in the next episode of "as the trail turns"
The enormity of hypocrisy in this thread defeated me.
The people who "invested" in making a trial (and previously tomm), practiced it 1,000 times on a preview and asked for difficulties so that no one but them could do it for sure, suddenly set themselves up as benefactors, because through them, the noobs can buy the desired items in the game.
For the first time I will say this: if the only reward from this trial is a weapon; a big applause for devs.
Better to feed the troll than listen to the idiot .
This issue appears maybe every 20-25th Judgement. The animation that shows Zariel on his knees is not shown. Zariel stands simply there, doing nothing and then Judgement hits.
By now, regardless of arguments and their validity, giving in to the "demands" for additional, tradeable, loot would be perceived as pandering by a significant part of the playerbase. Not sure that with the state of the game that is something that can be afforded. But I guess we will find out..
I for one am already fascinated with the developments in the next episode of "as the trail turns"
On a side note, we on the forums are a tiny part of the playerbase; the vast majority have no idea what goes on here.
Whatever the devs do, I don't think they need to be disproportionately concerned about the consequences of our disapproval.
i'm an xbox player who was a part of one of the first 5-10 completion groups and have sence helped 100's of people to learn mechanics and get there set. i don't play on pc or priview so i will not have a jump on the trial. it's to the point now it is not profitable and i have to try to have flawless runs to not lose ad with the price of scrolls. this is not a big deal because of how long the trial has been out and how happy the people are to get there set. If the rewards in the new trial stay thre same i will sadly not be helping lower players i will get my set complete the campaign and then play another game till more content is released. i understand some players will benifit greatly from major drops coming from new hard content, and people complain about that. most people complaining about said topic don't realize the amount of work and/or money those players have put in. implementing another farm in the mod like masterworking ect. would solve the problem but not when there dropped months apart. in the recent months i have been happy and hopfull with most everything ive seen in dev streams and on forms, but if the rewads from this trial stay the same i will be very disapointed. one step forward two steps back will be an understatment TYVM for your time as always tuna
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
About 5 times I've written a reply and didn't post it.
I could explain what are the benefits for player retention. I could explain about the economical process and the positives there. I could go into the specifics of why all those that object post here. I could address each argument point by point. I could bring up all history and old repeated arguments. I could point out the fallacy and blatant omissions and lies in some claims, or worse the generalizations.
But all that futile. It's will be easier to explain colors to a blind person than getting in a sensible debate here.
I'll just point out that from this thread among those that want a worthy challenge with proper rewards are players who want to experience something with their friends, guild, alliance. To have the memory of trying, failing, and finally succeeding. Getting rewarded, improve your characters, help your friends, push them to succeed, and repeat.
My guild members can't throw 30 mil for throw-away trial. We don't care about paingiver charts. And if we can't get everyone, and help others to complete it, it's not worth it.
And from this thread we see the voices that love the current direction, among them people who only play to flex their meaningless paingiver epeen, and players who prefer solo play over group. When there are full alliances making groups for everything starting from randoms to IC and ToMM training/live, is it normal whine about getting kicked in PuGs, and blame the "elitist 1%"? How is it possible to get kicked 4-5 years ago, and still be in the same state?
In any case, when those that are, training, playing, getting into end-game, upgrading their char, realize that there the game caters towards paingiver chasers and/or running 20 minutes to open skill nodes, we will see what will happen, a nice repeat of mod5 or 15. Maybe someone from here will be still around to say "I told you so".
What is the purpose of completing this piece of content I asked myself. A player that had over 40 TOMM runs in a raw without any good loot because of the damn rng and the painfull process will continue with Zariel. I want mounts, I want appearance items, I want effects to enhance my character. Put a damn store where I can get something nice because I am tired to gamble 40k per run after 20 mins of time play just to get a Blood Ruby. do not talk about the fact that you didn t mind to put a bonus for tanks on the new weapon set. I will hardly laugh when people will look for tanks to play this trial and won t be able to get because of fierce position you put us inside facing repetitive 500k hits. I will probably complete it once to get the title and thats all. I will stick with Lionheart because there is no reason for me to get the new set and also I am pretty much full regarding my build so I don`t need any profit from what you can get inside of this pain.
Devs still silent after the plethora of complaints after they said they don’t plan on increasing rewards. I stopped running the trial on preview due to the silence and not planning on buying the packs to unlock the content ASAP. I can’t be bothered to run something with no incentive, to obtain a weapon set to make this trial a tiny bit easier that still offers no rewards passed the weapon set?
No thanks. Don’t think I’ll be running this trial at all maybe it’s a good thing I can focus on other games for a while some where I actually am rewarded for doing the most challenging content it offers... Clearly others feel the same way, I’m so glad you all spent the time and effort developing a trial that no one will play.
Member of the guild: Legacy (Xbox) and Strawberry Yakuza (PC)
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
edited June 2020
Haruman and olanthius hit points you need to reduce them because we lost 45% damage buff from thaumaturge fix and is very hard to impossible for some dps compositions to pass that dps check.
My guild members can't throw 30 mil for throw-away trial.
Okay, so what? If you can't afford the items necessary to get in the door, then I guess you're gonna be grinding for the AD to get it. And if you don't want to, then fine. No one is forcing you to.
You don't want to do the trial? You don't want the best weapons in the game? Then I guess you'll have to content yourself with "merely" the Lionheart weapons. Oh boo hoo. Still better than what the vast majority of players have.
"But the content should compensate me for my investment!" Why? And even still, why should that be the case only for you and the most recent content? If you want to suggest ideas to revamp the loot system, then let's hear it. But it should apply to everything, not just Zariel's Trial.
All of this whining about the rewards from Zariel's Trial is a bit of kabuki theater anyway, since I'd be willing to bet that even if you think the *best weapons in the game* are not enough of a reason to do the content, then there will be rewards from Zariel's Trial in the form of Masterwork resources once the next tier is released in the coming months. Then, just like the last time, there will be very rare drops from Zariel's Challenge that will sell on the AH for a pretty penny, just like what was the case the last time Masterworks was upgraded, with rare drops from FBI and MSP. So you're gonna get your rewards. You're just demanding MORE rewards.
And from this thread we see the voices that love the current direction, among them people who only play to flex their meaningless paingiver epeen, and players who prefer solo play over group. When there are full alliances making groups for everything starting from randoms to IC and ToMM training/live, is it normal whine about getting kicked in PuGs, and blame the "elitist 1%"? How is it possible to get kicked 4-5 years ago, and still be in the same state?
I think you must have missed the entire point of my comments.
The point of my little story, is that I had no choice but to invest in my character with nearly all of the AD that I had, with zero expectation of a return on that investment, if I wanted to even participate in the endgame content at the time. Those are the rules that I operate under. Go ahead and criticize those rules all you want. I will be on your side. But those ARE the rules. As I said, I don't want to harm anyone. I just want all of us to be under the same set of rules. If my rules are that I must buy whatever is required of me with no expectation of making a return on that investment, why should you have a different set of rules? If it takes a 30 million AD investment to get in the door of Zariel's Challenge, with no expectation of a return on that investment, then that means that you are operating on exactly the same set of rules that I am operating under, when I must purchase whatever upgrades are necessary to get into content to try to complete it, with zero expectation of a return on that investment. Fair is fair.
If you want to see a change to the loot system then I am all ears. But it should be a change that applies to all, not just to the 1%.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
And from this thread we see the voices that love the current direction, among them people who only play to flex their meaningless paingiver epeen, and players who prefer solo play over group. When there are full alliances making groups for everything starting from randoms to IC and ToMM training/live, is it normal whine about getting kicked in PuGs, and blame the "elitist 1%"? How is it possible to get kicked 4-5 years ago, and still be in the same state?
I think you must have missed the entire point of my comments.
The point of my little story, is that I had no choice but to invest in my character with nearly all of the AD that I had, with zero expectation of a return on that investment, if I wanted to even participate in the endgame content at the time. Those are the rules that I operate under. Go ahead and criticize those rules all you want. I will be on your side. But those ARE the rules. As I said, I don't want to harm anyone. I just want all of us to be under the same set of rules. If my rules are that I must buy whatever is required of me with no expectation of making a return on that investment, why should you have a different set of rules? If it takes a 30 million AD investment to get in the door of Zariel's Challenge, with no expectation of a return on that investment, then that means that you are operating on exactly the same set of rules that I am operating under, when I must purchase whatever upgrades are necessary to get into content to try to complete it, with zero expectation of a return on that investment. Fair is fair.
If you want to see a change to the loot system then I am all ears. But it should be a change that applies to all, not just to the 1%.
Except that that is simply not correct. There are 2 falsehoods in your arguments:
1. Orcus was not needed to participate or complete FBI, it was a choice by you to join pug groups. It was not required as part of the game mechanics, unlike raw HP in the new trials.
2. FBI returned the investment many times over. At some point of time it was the most profitable dungeon in the game. (IIRC it was right after keygate changes)
3'ish - Orcus set or even worse the lostmauth set before it, were drops from previous content.
So if we discuss operating under the same rules, lets look at the investment and return of every content. There was no other content that required specific investment to it. Sure content requires improvement, harder content, better gear, but up until ToMM there is no deviation, the requirement from the DPS was just do enough dps, with no specific requirements. How to do it is up to the player, once may choose to buy Orcus set, another may just join a group that will run it without.
There is also no specific requirement for IC, you do Juma bags, and you are good to go, if you can get the checks done. Yet even IC with its most pathetic rewards, has the artifact that sells for about 800k? If we look at the overall investment / return, running CoDG takes 0 investment, in either gear or mechanics, and has a loot table with various companions like owlbear, ghost, and so on that still sell for large sums.
So like you say "fair is fair", why is that every other content doesn't require any special investment, aka, I don't need 500k HP for anything else (nor defense caps), yet nets something once in a blue moon, yet here I do need the special investment and get the finger in said blue moon...
I've been following this thread closely and i can't really tell if you are genuinely a massive troll or believe what you are saying.
That "1%" idea you have is just...ridiculous, it doesn't take a whole lot of AD spending to get into tower and do well. People that started playing neverwinter 3-4 months ago are completing tomm with ease due to the fact they are motivated to learn and get better. And also due to the fact...those "1%" you keep talking about are still hosting training runs for their friends and guild because they want to share the loots with them.
You seem to forget this is an MMO we are playing, those types of games are usually centered around grinding and rewards (be it grinding quests, zone specific things, or chase items from group content). Questing and solo content is not a very big part of neverwinter because it's sort of a "small" game, so we are left with grinding the group content in order to improve. This is definitely NOT a bad thing as neverwinter's combat is absolutely brilliant and playing dungeons and stuff with friends is some of the most fun i ever had in a game.
People don't only want loots from ZC for themselves, they want a reason to keep playing the game since neverwinter can be beautiful and FUN at times. Any content that is not rewarding isn't played, take CR for example, it was done on repeat until people got their sun weapons (for transmute purposes mostly) and then dropped. I absolutely love CR but it's so hard to put together a group for it that i only get to do it in redq.
Tower is still worth doing because almost every run you drop a ~30k ring or something, buuut it's going to become so much easier with the lionheart buff (and with the new weapon sets from content) that everyone will be able to do it, heck, we 6 manned(tank, heal, 4dps) it already a month or two ago.
As a last note, we can all agree that loot in neverwinter has a problem, but having an endgame goal is something that pushes players to keep playing. Something to strive for is always GOOD in any game as it gives motivation to play. Seeing as m19 has none of that most(6/10) of the group i completed zariel with has already moved to another mmo since there's not gonna be much to do other than daily quests for avernus, grabbing vip rewards and refining ad. *my group doesn't include any of the beta testers nor do any of my group members check the forum, we're mostly casual players dressed in endgame gear*
Comments
But that's not exactly true, because there are worthy things in game:
1, General consumables like ES from Dread ring lair always has a decent price, because some player just refuse to grind it and have to buy it. Normally, it should not worth to be done by endgame players, but it was after AD conversion became accwide until ToMM.
The above mentioned problem is even bigger with the utility slot RP/gold generating enchants that integrates getting RP/gold into everything you do, which significantly devalues it for everyone. It essentially farms itself.
2, Ultra low drop chance highly sought item like (the Orcus' wand used to be or) now the alpha compy from juma bag. Realistically, you couldn't just get them, you had to buy them from those who had it dropped for them. It's actually fairer than people credit it for, because it's so inefficient to force success that even endgame players just farm up the cost and pay the random lucky person for their alpha compy. Even if you are the lucky person, you either take your lottery winning and cash it or get a hugely cost-inefficient upgrade.
3, There are endgame content which hard-limits who can do it, thus generating demand.
4, There are demanded items to do the endgame stuff or as an investment to shorten the runtime. Or, there would be if professions weren't been trivialized and AI campaign boxes were not accbound. But as example, black ice overload enchant was and still can be used for ToMM and worths a lot, but generally can be farmed by anyone. And I guess if you spared the summer foods till now, you can surcharge people who ran out.
Edit: Also on the 4, having consumables divided into very few category and even fewer you can buy. I think making players apply more and more significant consumables would not just let people have something to sell, but help people make leaps in progression if stuck.
> By the way, the siderelated issue: The main reason why almost "no reward worths anything" is because everyone is expected to get everything by themself, thus there is no demand to buy anything from an other player.
>
> But that's not exactly true, because there are worthy things in game:
>
> 1, General consumables like ES from Dread ring lair always has a decent price, because some player just refuse to grind it and have to buy it. Normally, it should not worth to be done by endgame players, but it was after AD conversion became accwide until ToMM.
>
> The above mentioned problem is even bigger with the utility slot RP/gold generating enchants that integrates getting RP/gold into everything you do, which significantly devalues it for everyone. It essentially farms itself.
>
>
> 2, Ultra low drop chance highly sought item like (the Orcus' wand used to be or) now the alpha compy from juma bag. Realistically, you couldn't just get them, you had to buy them from those who had it dropped for them. It's actually fairer than people credit it for, because it's so inefficient to force success that even endgame players just farm up the cost and pay the random lucky person for their alpha compy. Even if you are the lucky person, you either take your lottery winning and cash it or get a hugely cost-inefficient upgrade.
>
> 3, There are endgame content which hard-limits who can do it, thus generating demand.
>
> 4, There are demanded items to do the endgame stuff or as an investment to shorten the runtime. Or, there would be if professions weren't been trivialized and AI campaign boxes were not accbound. But as example, black ice overload enchant was and still can be used for ToMM and worths a lot, but generally can be farmed by anyone. And I guess if you spared the summer foods till now, you can surcharge people who ran out.
>
> Edit: Also on the 4, having consumables divided into very few category and even fewer you can buy. I think making players apply more and more significant consumables would not just let people have something to sell, but help people make leaps in progression if stuck.
You can get alpha compy from juma bags? Frick, that's goooood.
More of this, Devs pls
This issue appears maybe every 20-25th Judgement. The animation that shows Zariel on his knees is not shown. Zariel stands simply there, doing nothing and then Judgement hits.
(𝓢𝖍𝖆𝖗𝖕𝖊𝖉𝖌𝖊Today at 3:10 AM
natsu etc all playing other games now
TBH neverwinter has never been SO good for me
> (Quote)
> Never
> (𝓢𝖍𝖆𝖗𝖕𝖊𝖉𝖌𝖊Today at 3:10 AM
> natsu etc all playing other games now
>
> TBH neverwinter has never been SO good for me
Why so vindictive?
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
> (Quote)
> Newton's third law? At a guess..
That would imply that this person had been victimized in some way.
I haven’t seen anything in this conversation that would seem to justify the way they came in here carrying that kind of baggage.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Any type of strong response on the internet has a, as near to for the difference to be inconsequential, 100% chance to step on someones toes. Fact of online life..
Here is a story. Back in Mod 10, when FBI was the endgame dungeon (and despite what you say, most groups considered it to be a very challenging dungeon), it was simply expected that DPS players would have the Demon Lord set. That meant getting the Shard of Orcus' Wand, which was at the time a rare drop from CN and very expensive. It did not matter if a player actually *needed* the Demon Lord set to complete the dungeon. You wouldn't be allowed in the door unless you had the set. So I spent the 3 million AD - nearly all I had - to buy the Shard so that I could participate in groups trying to do FBI. Which was a much larger proportion of my wealth at the time than 30 million AD is for you currently. It was a risky investment, because for all I knew at the time, the Demon Lord set could have been nerfed or made obsolete in Mod 11 and then I would be stuck with a very pricey investment that would be far less valuable. And there was zero expectation that I would ever recoup the cost of that Shard by doing FBI, or any other dungeon for that matter. But that was what I had to do at the time.
Those are the rules that I operate under. Why should those rules not apply to you? If you and other endgamers have to buy a 30 million AD piece of gear to get in the door of Zariel's Challenge, then go ahead and buy it. And if you can't afford it, then find other ways to make AD so that you can then buy it.
Why should the dungeon reward you for that investment? You are making a permanent upgrade to your character. In the real world, if you get for example a nice haircut, there is no expectation that in some future time you will "recoup the cost" of that haircut in some way.
Now if you want to change how those rules operate, then I am all for it. I absolutely want to change how loot works. I'm willing to listen to any reasonable idea. But whatever change that occurs, should be applied to all. Not just to endgamers in the endgame trial. Isn't that what YOU want when you say you want 'truly endgame' content?
I did tons of FBI runs when it was released, and many of them with DPS not wearing Demonlord set. Why was that a req in the groups you joined ?
So, you only got into FBI because you were allowed to purchase a Shard from someone who got the drop in CN. Which means, that if the old devs had believed in this argument of good loot shouldn't drop in dungeons because that's not fair to the people who won't get that drop, you wouldn't have gotten a Shard. Which means then you would never have gotten into FBI at all because you'd still have been farming CN for a bound shard. Restricting dungeon drops would have slowed down your progression and kept you from participating in newer content. So see, having the dungeon drop unbound loot for other people to buy actually helps *everyone* out. It helps out the people who run the dungeon by allowing them to sell things for AD. It helps out the people who run the dungeon but don't get the drop they need because they can farm the AD to buy it. Like YOU did. It helps the people who just hate that dungeon and would rather buy it. By your own argument, YOU SHOULD WANT there to be good, unbound loot in ZC.
I agree with what Vorphied posted earlier. I'm not seeing any game legitimate reasons why the loot from ZC shouldn't be appropriate per the challenge of the dungeon. All I'm seeing is a lot of people complaining it's unfair that they won't get it because the dungeon will be too hard for them to get into. That's why unbound loot *should* exist. Then you can get it, and you won't have to spend the 30 mil to prep your toon and another 30 mil on scrolls to learn it. AD saved. That's certainly how I hope to be getting the stuff from ZC cause goodness knows I don't have that much AD.
As I said, if you have an idea for how to reform the loot system, I will happily consider it. When that system is implemented, let's apply it to all players among all classes. But until that time, let's not treat the "elite" as a special class of players who "deserve" it more than the hoi polloi toiling in the 99%.
So as things stand *right now*, your motivation for doing ZC is the exact same motivation as mine for doing ZC: for getting the best weapons in the game, and if that isn't enough, then tough noogies.
I for one am already fascinated with the developments in the next episode of "as the trail turns"
The people who "invested" in making a trial (and previously tomm), practiced it 1,000 times on a preview and asked for difficulties so that no one but them could do it for sure, suddenly set themselves up as benefactors, because through them, the noobs can buy the desired items in the game.
For the first time I will say this: if the only reward from this trial is a weapon; a big applause for devs.
Whatever the devs do, I don't think they need to be disproportionately concerned about the consequences of our disapproval.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
If the rewards in the new trial stay thre same i will sadly not be helping lower players i will get my set complete the campaign and then play another game till more content is released. i understand some players will benifit greatly from major drops coming from new hard content, and people complain about that. most people complaining about said topic don't realize the amount of work and/or money those players have put in.
implementing another farm in the mod like masterworking ect. would solve the problem but not when there dropped months apart. in the recent months i have been happy and hopfull with most everything ive seen in dev streams and on forms, but if the rewads from this trial stay the same i will be very disapointed. one step forward two steps back will be an understatment
TYVM for your time as always tuna
I could explain what are the benefits for player retention.
I could explain about the economical process and the positives there.
I could go into the specifics of why all those that object post here.
I could address each argument point by point.
I could bring up all history and old repeated arguments.
I could point out the fallacy and blatant omissions and lies in some claims, or worse the generalizations.
But all that futile. It's will be easier to explain colors to a blind person than getting in a sensible debate here.
I'll just point out that from this thread among those that want a worthy challenge with proper rewards are players who want to experience something with their friends, guild, alliance. To have the memory of trying, failing, and finally succeeding. Getting rewarded, improve your characters, help your friends, push them to succeed, and repeat.
My guild members can't throw 30 mil for throw-away trial. We don't care about paingiver charts. And if we can't get everyone, and help others to complete it, it's not worth it.
And from this thread we see the voices that love the current direction, among them people who only play to flex their meaningless paingiver epeen, and players who prefer solo play over group. When there are full alliances making groups for everything starting from randoms to IC and ToMM training/live, is it normal whine about getting kicked in PuGs, and blame the "elitist 1%"? How is it possible to get kicked 4-5 years ago, and still be in the same state?
In any case, when those that are, training, playing, getting into end-game, upgrading their char, realize that there the game caters towards paingiver chasers and/or running 20 minutes to open skill nodes, we will see what will happen, a nice repeat of mod5 or 15. Maybe someone from here will be still around to say "I told you so".
You will reap what you sow.
No thanks. Don’t think I’ll be running this trial at all maybe it’s a good thing I can focus on other games for a while some where I actually am rewarded for doing the most challenging content it offers... Clearly others feel the same way, I’m so glad you all spent the time and effort developing a trial that no one will play.
Alts:
Saxy Healz Paladin (Oathkeeper) [Xbox and PC]
Saxon Ranger (Warden)
Yuri Wizard (Thaumaturge)
Member of the guild: Legacy (Xbox) and Strawberry Yakuza (PC)
You don't want to do the trial? You don't want the best weapons in the game? Then I guess you'll have to content yourself with "merely" the Lionheart weapons. Oh boo hoo. Still better than what the vast majority of players have.
"But the content should compensate me for my investment!" Why? And even still, why should that be the case only for you and the most recent content? If you want to suggest ideas to revamp the loot system, then let's hear it. But it should apply to everything, not just Zariel's Trial.
All of this whining about the rewards from Zariel's Trial is a bit of kabuki theater anyway, since I'd be willing to bet that even if you think the *best weapons in the game* are not enough of a reason to do the content, then there will be rewards from Zariel's Trial in the form of Masterwork resources once the next tier is released in the coming months. Then, just like the last time, there will be very rare drops from Zariel's Challenge that will sell on the AH for a pretty penny, just like what was the case the last time Masterworks was upgraded, with rare drops from FBI and MSP. So you're gonna get your rewards. You're just demanding MORE rewards.
The point of my little story, is that I had no choice but to invest in my character with nearly all of the AD that I had, with zero expectation of a return on that investment, if I wanted to even participate in the endgame content at the time. Those are the rules that I operate under. Go ahead and criticize those rules all you want. I will be on your side. But those ARE the rules. As I said, I don't want to harm anyone. I just want all of us to be under the same set of rules. If my rules are that I must buy whatever is required of me with no expectation of making a return on that investment, why should you have a different set of rules? If it takes a 30 million AD investment to get in the door of Zariel's Challenge, with no expectation of a return on that investment, then that means that you are operating on exactly the same set of rules that I am operating under, when I must purchase whatever upgrades are necessary to get into content to try to complete it, with zero expectation of a return on that investment. Fair is fair.
If you want to see a change to the loot system then I am all ears. But it should be a change that applies to all, not just to the 1%.
1. Orcus was not needed to participate or complete FBI, it was a choice by you to join pug groups. It was not required as part of the game mechanics, unlike raw HP in the new trials.
2. FBI returned the investment many times over. At some point of time it was the most profitable dungeon in the game. (IIRC it was right after keygate changes)
3'ish - Orcus set or even worse the lostmauth set before it, were drops from previous content.
So if we discuss operating under the same rules, lets look at the investment and return of every content.
There was no other content that required specific investment to it. Sure content requires improvement, harder content, better gear, but up until ToMM there is no deviation, the requirement from the DPS was just do enough dps, with no specific requirements. How to do it is up to the player, once may choose to buy Orcus set, another may just join a group that will run it without.
There is also no specific requirement for IC, you do Juma bags, and you are good to go, if you can get the checks done. Yet even IC with its most pathetic rewards, has the artifact that sells for about 800k?
If we look at the overall investment / return, running CoDG takes 0 investment, in either gear or mechanics, and has a loot table with various companions like owlbear, ghost, and so on that still sell for large sums.
So like you say "fair is fair", why is that every other content doesn't require any special investment, aka, I don't need 500k HP for anything else (nor defense caps), yet nets something once in a blue moon, yet here I do need the special investment and get the finger in said blue moon...
I've been following this thread closely and i can't really tell if you are genuinely a massive troll or believe what you are saying.
That "1%" idea you have is just...ridiculous, it doesn't take a whole lot of AD spending to get into tower and do well.
People that started playing neverwinter 3-4 months ago are completing tomm with ease due to the fact they are motivated to learn and get better. And also due to the fact...those "1%" you keep talking about are still hosting training runs for their friends and guild because they want to share the loots with them.
You seem to forget this is an MMO we are playing, those types of games are usually centered around grinding and rewards (be it grinding quests, zone specific things, or chase items from group content). Questing and solo content is not a very big part of neverwinter because it's sort of a "small" game, so we are left with grinding the group content in order to improve.
This is definitely NOT a bad thing as neverwinter's combat is absolutely brilliant and playing dungeons and stuff with friends is some of the most fun i ever had in a game.
People don't only want loots from ZC for themselves, they want a reason to keep playing the game since neverwinter can be beautiful and FUN at times.
Any content that is not rewarding isn't played, take CR for example, it was done on repeat until people got their sun weapons (for transmute purposes mostly) and then dropped. I absolutely love CR but it's so hard to put together a group for it that i only get to do it in redq.
Tower is still worth doing because almost every run you drop a ~30k ring or something, buuut it's going to become so much easier with the lionheart buff (and with the new weapon sets from content) that everyone will be able to do it, heck, we 6 manned(tank, heal, 4dps) it already a month or two ago.
As a last note, we can all agree that loot in neverwinter has a problem, but having an endgame goal is something that pushes players to keep playing. Something to strive for is always GOOD in any game as it gives motivation to play. Seeing as m19 has none of that most(6/10) of the group i completed zariel with has already moved to another mmo since there's not gonna be much to do other than daily quests for avernus, grabbing vip rewards and refining ad.
*my group doesn't include any of the beta testers nor do any of my group members check the forum, we're mostly casual players dressed in endgame gear*