< font color=cyan > ToMM had 75-80% of its in-game population sitting on their hands, Paying folks for completions, or just not playing the game. This dungeon will be no different. If ToMM Loot is dropping from Zariel, what is the point of upgrading my class shelling out AD when i can just save my AD and continue to run Tomm for the same loot? I don't plan on getting the new set as it is now on the preview server, weapon damage is good, weapon set perks, not so much. Would be BETTER if you removed Daily skill from it, and made it into Encounter /At-will skill instead. As i tell my friends this is the Infernal Citadel of trials, meaning medium effort for minimal payout, granted the Tomm rings are nice but, i would rather just run TOMM for those.This is a dungeon for "End gamers" but there is literally nothing in this dungeon that makes it worth doing if it drops loot from a LOWER pre-existing dungeon. Just to clarify, adding NEW rings with a few hundred extra stats (Epic stats VS Legendary stats on Tomm rings for example) is not what i have in mind to remedy this problem. Also, leave my paladin heals alone its starting to get tedious.
Here is a balancing idea, that I'm sure many would "love" so much.
We should have a completion leader-board, each completion a player (Account) gets points. The earlier the completion is after the release, the more points the player is granted.
But there is a catch, the more points a person have, the harder it becomes for them (can be non linear), some resistance debuff, longer res-sickness, speed debuff, or like rez sickness, just hp and damage, you get the idea, I'm sure.
This would be probably be an incentive benefiting new players in the respective content, adding bonus difficulty to grinders. But it would delete "carrier" positions as well. Which means you added a complicated system just to annoy people on all levels.
edit: I really don't like the system of punishing the player for a successful run - however, this actually can be one possible version of training camps. You start with 5 stacks of "trainee buff" - lets say 5% damage received reduction per stack. Each successful run would remove one stack, five wins would mean the trial would finally have its full difficulty thrown at you - while you already should roughly know how things work there.
As you can see in the video above, Arbiter has much higher damage than other classes. Roughly 20% higher! It will be the same as in the case of mod 17, but now instead of Arcanist...
Arbiters already outdamage everyone on live. That's not new.
Yes, it's unbalanced, but it's not a sudden change on Preview or specific to this trial. More of a class discussion.
With more and more new MMO's coming out(found the no NDA funny on Amazons New world invite beta) only giving content for the vast minority of your player base is not a wise decision. YES give bis something hard but at same time give it to others also. That is why we recommended and empowering way simular to ME's . If you continue this BIS only mentality you will loos more than just the corona uptick you got(all games got this nothing to be proud of BTW) in player base If you release mod 19 as is you will get mod 6 level DISASTER
An event is not a trial and dungeon. Just like tales of old is NOT the return of old dungeons!!! Players will not be happy with this since many still struggle with LOMM. PLEASE think about non bis players also !!!!!!
They're releasing a story mode of this trial.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Here is a balancing idea, that I'm sure many would "love" so much.
We should have a completion leader-board, each completion a player (Account) gets points. The earlier the completion is after the release, the more points the player is granted.
But there is a catch, the more points a person have, the harder it becomes for them (can be non linear), some resistance debuff, longer res-sickness, speed debuff, or like rez sickness, just hp and damage, you get the idea, I'm sure.
This would be probably be an incentive benefiting new players in the respective content, adding bonus difficulty to grinders. But it would delete "carrier" positions as well. Which means you added a complicated system just to annoy people on all levels.
edit: I really don't like the system of punishing the player for a successful run - however, this actually can be one possible version of training camps. You start with 5 stacks of "trainee buff" - lets say 5% damage received reduction per stack. Each successful run would remove one stack, five wins would mean the trial would finally have its full difficulty thrown at you - while you already should roughly know how things work there.
Notice that it depends on the time of the run, and not only number of runs. Those that finish on day one, get the largest "score" while someone who gets on second week, gets less.
You can balance it that at week 4+ you can carry as much as you want. This levels the gap is between those that finish first to those who will finish second and so on. A gap reducer, but not as punishment only, it has a positive side, and can be a "Season" thing with rewards.
Also we count successes only, so if someone wants to carry or not, they still get the loot.
Edit - Also the 'penalty' is non linear in nature, so it's not barring from helping others.
In phase 2 (at the shade of ice and fire), if the tanks dont execute it perfectly the two fiends start clipping together, i assume because they use the exact same AI. In other words, this means that if one tank messes up and the other one gets aggro on both for a second or so, the fiends fuse together and you can no longer recover from that since they start walking and attacking in absolute sync. Unless this is intended a possible fixwould be to make it so that the fiends can't clip through each other.
Still regarding phase 2, after the big overhead smash when you are supposed to swap aggro, increase the time the fiend doesn't attack by one second or so. With two paladin tanks we have no issue aggro swapping because smite is ranged. But in a party with no paladin tanks they dont have enough time to switch, so they "get their butt slapped" on the way to swap aggro, that is not survivable without loads of temp hp or a deflection(and you cant block it because...you're walking away ! hence the "butt slapping") It's not that it's impossible to do, but two barb tanks in the same group would get their butt slapped as they walk away alot more than two paladins, which just makes it unfair towards the barbs. As i said above, feedback is: increase time between overhead smash and next hit by some amount (not a big amount, otherwise it becomes too easy)
***when i ran my paladin with a barb tank we did get through it but i was the one whose butt got slapped, since he couldnt take it from me as he walked, but i learned to use tab during aggro swap, so i survived, barely***
Thanks for reporting the bug with the shades, we are now looking into this.
As you can see in the video above, Arbiter has much higher damage than other classes. Roughly 20% higher!
20% ?)) Realy?) I think you're playing the arcanist.) And I guess you want to stay in the TOP of DPS list just like you did it in M18, right? And you don't want any competition from other classes.
I think the Arbiters now have a chance to be on par with the other DSS classes. Thank to developers, for not forgetting about us.
I will be the first person to say it. Might as well get the complain train going.
This trial needs better loot. ToMM rings are not a good enough incentive to continue running it after people have acquired their weapons. I suggest either new pet gear or something else otherwise the trial will be a failure.
Suggestion:Add a set of Armor Reinforcements that can be added to pants or shirts. Everyone will need them.
Example:
Ruby Reinforcement: Increases control and control resistance by 1% Diamond Reinforcement: Increases critical severity by 1% Sapphire Reinforcement: Increases recovery (recharge rate) by 1% Emerald Reinforcement: Increases move speed by 2% Topaz Reinforcement: Increases companion damage by 4% Opal Reinforcement: Increases deflection severity by 2% Garnet Reinforcement: Increases health regeneration (out of combat) by 5% Pearl Reinforcement: Increases incoming and outgoing healing by 1%
The hypo aoe it is just too small for people to fit in properly and if you have dragonborn races involved you will get pushed out of the area with will result in death of your party members. Could you guys increase it a bit?
There are a few posts that say mechanics are too easy, but remember about console players when balancing the trial.
PC players cheat, this has been known since the beginning of the game. Setting FoV + zoom to the maximum value gives you a full view of the battlefield (it's looks bad, but tactical advantage is way bigger), you don't even have to move to see what's going on. Console players cannot do this! They have to look around every time something happens, camera rotation is also slow, even at maximum speed. Some time ago the patch introduced a lower FoV, PC players started shouting loudly that they could not finish ToMM because they could not see the mechanics. It shows how this affects the gameplay.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
There are a few posts that say mechanics are too easy, but remember about console players when balancing the trial.
PC players cheat, this has been known since the beginning of the game. Setting FoV + zoom to the maximum value gives you a full view of the battlefield (it's looks bad, but tactical advantage is way bigger), you don't even have to move to see what's going on. Console players cannot do this! They have to look around every time something happens, camera rotation is also slow, even at maximum speed. Some time ago the patch introduced a lower FoV, PC players started shouting loudly that they could not finish ToMM because they could not see the mechanics. It shows how this affects the gameplay.
There are a few posts that say mechanics are too easy, but remember about console players when balancing the trial.
PC players cheat, this has been known since the beginning of the game. Setting FoV + zoom to the maximum value gives you a full view of the battlefield (it's looks bad, but tactical advantage is way bigger), you don't even have to move to see what's going on. Console players cannot do this! They have to look around every time something happens, camera rotation is also slow, even at maximum speed. Some time ago the patch introduced a lower FoV, PC players started shouting loudly that they could not finish ToMM because they could not see the mechanics. It shows how this affects the gameplay.
But it is also true that a wide FoV definitely helps in TOMM and console players don't have the same access to it. I'm not saying it is cheating, just that playtesting on PC may give biased results due to different FoV settings. Look at most of the TOMM (and now Zariel) videos and you'll see that they are taken at high FoV, meaning that this is probably the most common setup on PC. Relying on these results to evaluate the trial for consoles may give inaccurate results.
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
There are a few posts that say mechanics are too easy, but remember about console players when balancing the trial.
PC players cheat, this has been known since the beginning of the game. Setting FoV + zoom to the maximum value gives you a full view of the battlefield (it's looks bad, but tactical advantage is way bigger), you don't even have to move to see what's going on. Console players cannot do this! They have to look around every time something happens, camera rotation is also slow, even at maximum speed. Some time ago the patch introduced a lower FoV, PC players started shouting loudly that they could not finish ToMM because they could not see the mechanics. It shows how this affects the gameplay.
But it is also true that a wide FoV definitely helps in TOMM and console players don't have the same access to it. I'm not saying it is cheating, just that playtesting on PC may give biased results due to different FoV settings. Look at most of the TOMM (and now Zariel) videos and you'll see that they are taken at high FoV, meaning that this is probably the most common setup on PC. Relying on these results to evaluate the trial for consoles may give inaccurate results.
I know and I pointed that out at the start of the FoV thread as well. Its just that being accused of "cheating" when there is a very valid reason to change your FoV not related to gameplay irritates me.
Ruby Reinforcement: Increases control and control resistance by 1% Diamond Reinforcement: Increases critical severity by 1% Sapphire Reinforcement: Increases recovery (recharge rate) by 1% Emerald Reinforcement: Increases move speed by 2% Topaz Reinforcement: Increases companion damage by 4% Opal Reinforcement: Increases deflection severity by 2% Garnet Reinforcement: Increases health regeneration (out of combat) by 5% Pearl Reinforcement: Increases incoming and outgoing healing by 1%
While this is a decent idea, it would be much more suitable as an addition to crafting - and might actually make crafting relevant again ... really not a something for random drops.
Hoping for improvements...
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
Now, I have not completed the Trial yet, but what I have seen makes me want to ask one question:
After getting their Celestial weapons, what is supposed to motivate people to continue run this content. That is, what unique (as in, not available from doing easier content), profitable (as in sellable) rewards does the trial have?
If the answer is "nothing", something failed in the design.
Phase 5 needs a buff imo, whether by more hp, or more complex combinations of mechanics (i would prefer this one), or a combination of both.
Please don‘t nerf the dps-check (p4). My groups overall damage isn‘t as high as @viraaal‘s, and we still managed to beat it, so my guess is, like with tomm, that after getting new weapons it will become easier and easier, and by nerfing the phase it will become pointless.
Also:
The loot is terrible. No tomm-rings, for obvious reasons. Players need a longterm-incentive to run the trial. Give us unbound, shiny, (new!) things.
The mechanic that pushes the group doesn't feel 'pushy' enough. I think we have never had any death or wipes from this mechanic because it is almost impossible to push you from the platform.
Phase 2 - tank swap feedback
The time you have for switching aggro between the demons is pretty short. Furthermore their attack has a huge range as well. Maybe another 2 seconds or so to swap aggro would be nice.
Phase 2 - Demon's tankbuster damage
The demon's tankbuster hits for roughly 3-4 mio damage which is often more difficult to survive than Zariel's tankbuster. A small damage decrease of the demon's tankbuster would be nice.
First of all, thank you for this new challenging trial that requires a lot of group coordination. -I am really concerned by the amount of hit points needed to survive for dps classes, e.g. for sword clusters or sword fall which are mechanics to eat alone but not only. Currently on preview server, everybody is "cheating" by slotting legendary 50k hit points mount and by slotting a +5% hit points glyph overload from hellpit event. This is not something desirable for the live version. You cannot ask everybody to have ALL this workarounds, on top of their endgame gear or enchants. A healthy 450-475k toon (which is already 100k more than a mod 18 character with good gear) should be able to cope with the mechanics and not die in loop after his first death. I assume that this is probably a strategy to avoid people being overcapped too early with upcoming gear but still...Please tone down a bit the damage and keep of course the deadly mechanics. -Same applies to tanks, the big damage on them should be reduced (not by a significant amount), especially with the healing changes... -For the dps checks, I don't think it should be buffed. Groups that passed the trial had overperforming arbiters and should not be the reference. A decent DPS group with very few resurrection sicknesses is entitled to pass it. I am also thinking of groups with some players that would not have Lionheart weapons, so with less damage.. - Celestial Blade portals: not sure if the 1sec between the red color on the ground and the striking is intended. Should be one sec longer or more (that's what red is supposed to announce, and what about players with terrible ping or latency?). We can dodge the damage partially but if I had to choose, I would prefer to have the position myself correctly or to die. - Wingflap: ok we are pushed. Is that to give the healers some rest ?. This attack makes not sense as the activation is too long . We have plenty of time to cross the platform. -DPS check of Shade of fire and shade of ice: I would add some other attacks to the demons (obviously not on the tanks and healers as they have much to do). -There is something missing in the mechanics. Cannot really tell what, but maybe a random order of the mechanics at some point. -Rewards: Some specific rewards should be created on top of celestial weapons. Or like the Halaster mount, maybe to create a NPC that would sell some cool stuff or wards or overloads or whatever, in exchange of your completion scrolls. < /font >
Stress inducing trials that require high amounts of coordination drive players to other games. It's fun for awhile IF you have the friends to stick it out with but not if you do not. After getting the showoff weapons, many do not return.
-I am really concerned by the amount of hit points needed to survive for dps classes, e.g. for sword clusters or sword fall which are mechanics to eat alone but not only. Currently on preview server, everybody is "cheating" by slotting legendary 50k hit points mount and by slotting a +5% hit points glyph overload from hellpit event. This is not something desirable for the live version. You cannot ask everybody to have ALL this workarounds, on top of their endgame gear or enchants. A healthy 450-475k toon (which is already 100k more than a mod 18 character with good gear) should be able to cope with the mechanics and not die in loop after his first death. I assume that this is probably a strategy to avoid people being overcapped too early with upcoming gear but still...Please tone down a bit the damage and keep of course the deadly mechanics.
I'm actually curious about the tethers, myself. I've only done the trial a couple of times on Preview, and just to phase 2, but I've seen the line of swords from the tethers hit my character for 495k with defense capped and no apparent debuffs.
Is the expectation here that an Oathkeeper or Soulweaver is always pre-shielding for this mechanic, or is there an interaction that needs to be observed, like distance between origin point and target affecting the damage?
I will be the first person to say it. Might as well get the complain train going.
This trial needs better loot. ToMM rings are not a good enough incentive to continue running it after people have acquired their weapons. I suggest either new pet gear or something else otherwise the trial will be a failure.
I understand that some will consider a piece of content a failure if they are not encouraged to run it on repeat continually. However, we don't necessarily adhere to this same philosophy—particularly with very challenging content—it's okay if once you have the primary reward from the content you don't feel the compulsion to farm it continually. This is especially true because for some players, simply completing that content in the first place can be a monumental challenge.
However, we do appreciate the feedback, and are examining ways in the future we could provide ways to encourage more repeat play of challenging content for those so-inclined. The difficulty becomes that if those loops feel essential, they feel very punishing for those who cannot participate in that harder content. For now, we do hope that the power and status of having a superior weapon is something that can continue to feel good for tackling the most challenging content successfully.
The trial is visually interesting and has a nice, crisp pace. Really enjoying the design so far.
Some of the healing/mitigation checks might be a tad overtuned if the trial is intended to be accessible to parties without ideally stacked legendary mount abilities etc., much more so than with ToMM currently. Need to do more extensive testing to offer more informed feedback, but whether or not it's by design, the incoming damage on some of the unavoidable mechanics (was it "White Noise?") is so high that survival can't reasonably be guaranteed without a lot of stacked damage down effects and extremely high HP on all party members. The players who aren't near the top of their respective classes for ToMM will not be able to be effective in this trial for some time if it launches as-is.
Thank you for the feedback! I am glad to hear you're enjoying the trial, and the visuals! Our effects team worked hard to build some unique visuals this time around—what's currently on preview is still not final as well, I hope you'll check back and see the final visuals once the module launches. We have some exciting things planned!
In regards to the current damage tuning, I did significantly boost some of the tuning near the end of the closed beta at the players' request, and that may be reined in slightly as we gather data and make our final adjustments. There are some mechanical tweaks that I would like to make as well, some that I have been hoping to make but simply have not had time to due to conflicting tasks, and some based on all of your feedback.
P.S. The power in question "Weight of Virtue" was called "Whitenoise" during much of the closed beta, before the final names were decided upon. I do apologize for any confusion this may have caused as players from the closed beta discuss the mechanics of this fight. I do greatly appreciate if those who were in the closed beta could refer to powers by their final names. Difficulties like this sometimes crop up with providing early looks at content. I appreciate your patience!
1st Phase (Zariel): Good, I don't think there needs to be anything done here, lots of fun mechanics, and the length is appropriate. Could be longer if you want that.
2nd Phase (2 Devils): I like this phase alot more after the buffs you gave to it. I think you could even increase the HP a bit more, and let the Demons also cast stuff like creeping ice, lava on the floor, or put people into Ice (like in ToMM).
3rd Phase (Zariel): I also feel that Phase 3 could be a little longer, maybe 10-20% more HP This still feels harder than Phase 5. but thats probably because of the Rune Bug. I feel like it could use a bit more Celestial Blades, and maybe more locations for Spreading Light to spawn. Since the patter now is very easy to avoid, once you understood where the Spreading light goes.
4th Phase (2 Angels): This Phase is the hardest at the moment, cause the dps check is rather tight. I like that and in my opinion Powercreep will make this easier, so i dont think it needs to be nerfed. But id like this whole phase to last a bit longer, so maybe you can increase the timer and the HP proportionally.
5th Phase (Zariel): This phase is possibly easier than P3 and shorter, which feels very anticlimactic. The fact that she increases her casts of Weight of Virtue each time she goes through her rotation, is hardly noticeable when you have sufficient dps. In my opinion the most difficult mechanics are absent in this phase, for example Celestial Blades, Parhelion, Anthelion. Also, Hallowed Slash feels better since it got increased speed, but its still just running around in a circle.
Some interesting combinations to think of: Celestial blades + swordfall Rain of Swords + Celestial Blades Rain of Swords + Scathing Light More detailed feedback on the mechanics is in the next section. Also in my opinion this phase should be at least twice as long (with more mechanics in it ofc), so id suggest that she heals to full life after P4.
Mechanics:
Rain of Swords: Good mechanic, i suggest increasing the number of Rain of Swords up from 2 to 3 or 4 (4x would take place in P5). We are still very keen on the idea of a single target Rain of Swords, that would have to be soaked by the tanks (requires teamplay, and makes the tanks have more to do).
Tempest Wings/Great Divide, i suggest having more of these in quick succession, so for example, she is at 12 o’clock, does her Tempest Wings, moves to 9 o’clock, does another Tempest Wings. Same goes for Great Divide. Also it feels like you have too much time to react to both of those. Reduce it.
Spreading Light: Feels like a good mechanic, but the locations where the Spreading Light spawns must be more random, or there have to be at least more spots where it can spawn. Otherwise it gets too easy to avoid. Maybe even consider having 3 spawns in the final phase.
Scathing Light: OK
Celestial Blades: The DoT inflicted by it seems not punishing enough. If you don't want to tune up the dmg of the DoT, we suggest adding a damage debuff (similar to the magnet debuff) that is also inflicted onto the player when he is hit by the mechanic. WE NEED MORE OF THIS!
Vulnerability up: OK
Hallowed Slash: As said above this feels alot better after getting its speed increased, but its still only running in a circle, maybe try out randomizing the area she targets.
Parhelion/Anthelion: Both feel ok, but it's a problem that they both can be avoided by just staying far away. Especially in the later stages that feels too easy to avoid.
Penance: Feels like you have a little too much time to position. They should trigger faster.
General design:
I feel like the fight is missing mechanics that interact with the arena itself, much like creeping ice in ToMM, or like the lava ground mechanic in IC. Something that reduces the usable area, restricts players from entering a certain part of the arena or inflicts some sort of status debuff/disables their powers etc. Letting the players influence the placement of those areas would lead to much more interactive gameplay. i think Scrolls of Life and Stones of Health make it a lot easier than it should be. Consider disabling them in the harder version (ofc best case: remove them from the game entirely :>)
Feedback on Loot and special Rewards: The changes to the weapons make ToMM way too easy, but you already know that It also kind of negates the nerfs to healing you did. (25% bigger shields for example) Besides that, ToMM rings seem pointless, they are not valuable outside of a few outliers and i don't think they would hold up as long term motivation. I don't know what kind of gear you plan to implement in the future, so it's up to you guys how you want to do this, but the current situation sets the trial up for failure. People will get their weapons and then dont bother with it. Especially since ToMM will be so much easier with the new weapons. I suggest unbound Companion gear. Just take the gear that can drop from MEs/WEs now, put the 1010 version + a Legendary version (1100 IL) and maybe a few new stat combinations in there. Let the easier version drop the 990 IL companion gear, because this would, in my opinion, make both versions lucrative to farm in the short and long term.
Thank you! Lots of great feedback here, I apologize for not taking time to respond to all of it. But know that in the case of many of the combination mechanics you have suggested and small adjustments—I'd like to make some of the changes you've hinted at as well (and some you haven't.)
Iteration on this trial has been a bit more difficult than ToMM due to COVID and my development time also being allocated to healing adjustments and other unannounced work. However, I do have some time in the near future that I will be devoting to making further adjustments. In general, you can expect that some of the numbers tuning may be slightly reduced in places, but mechanical complexity and difficulty in other places will increase. In particular, as you point out, phase 5 is much too easy for the final phase of the fight. This is definitely an area I will be focusing on.
The trial is visually interesting and has a nice, crisp pace. Really enjoying the design so far.
Some of the healing/mitigation checks might be a tad overtuned if the trial is intended to be accessible to parties without ideally stacked legendary mount abilities etc., much more so than with ToMM currently. Need to do more extensive testing to offer more informed feedback, but whether or not it's by design, the incoming damage on some of the unavoidable mechanics (was it "White Noise?") is so high that survival can't reasonably be guaranteed without a lot of stacked damage down effects and extremely high HP on all party members. The players who aren't near the top of their respective classes for ToMM will not be able to be effective in this trial for some time if it launches as-is.
Thank you for the feedback! I am glad to hear you're enjoying the trial, and the visuals! Our effects team worked hard to build some unique visuals this time around—what's currently on preview is still not final as well, I hope you'll check back and see the final visuals once the module launches. We have some exciting things planned!
In regards to the current damage tuning, I did significantly boost some of the tuning near the end of the closed beta at the players' request, and that may be reined in slightly as we gather data and make our final adjustments. There are some mechanical tweaks that I would like to make as well, some that I have been hoping to make but simply have not had time to due to conflicting tasks, and some based on all of your feedback.
P.S. The power in question "Weight of Virtue" was called "Whitenoise" during much of the closed beta, before the final names were decided upon. I do apologize for any confusion this may have caused as players from the closed beta discuss the mechanics of this fight. I do greatly appreciate if those who were in the closed beta could refer to powers by their final names. Difficulties like this sometimes crop up with providing early looks at content. I appreciate your patience!
Thank you for your response! I'm looking forward to seeing how this trial develops
I'm also glad to see that you're considering maintaining and, in some places, increasing mechanical complexity while perhaps taking slight pressure off of the damage values for certain mechanics.
A lot of players bristle when any perceived nerfing of difficult content is discussed, but this is the rare occasion that I play devil's advocate.
- For those of us with the resources onhand, having to rebalance stats to include significantly more HP beyond ToMM standards is merely an annoyance. We swap some things around until we feel comfy and then proceed to play the same way.
- Our friends who are maybe doing okay in ToMM or who are just working their way into training are incredibly far from being able to deal with Zariel. By the time these players can survive basic phase 1 mechanics in Zariel, the rest of the server will have moved on to the next big thing.
I'd suggest setting the goal post for base HP values a little lower while increasing the expectation for high performance in handling mechanics. The real test of difficulty should lie more with individual player skill that way, and less with their base endurance and ability to secure the strongest possible shields to save them from said mechanics.
I will be the first person to say it. Might as well get the complain train going.
This trial needs better loot. ToMM rings are not a good enough incentive to continue running it after people have acquired their weapons. I suggest either new pet gear or something else otherwise the trial will be a failure.
I understand that some will consider a piece of content a failure if they are not encouraged to run it on repeat continually. However, we don't necessarily adhere to this same philosophy—particularly with very challenging content—it's okay if once you have the primary reward from the content you don't feel the compulsion to farm it continually. This is especially true because for some players, simply completing that content in the first place can be a monumental challenge.
However, we do appreciate the feedback, and are examining ways in the future we could provide ways to encourage more repeat play of challenging content for those so-inclined. The difficulty becomes that if those loops feel essential, they feel very punishing for those who cannot participate in that harder content. For now, we do hope that the power and status of having a superior weapon is something that can continue to feel good for tackling the most challenging content successfully.
FEEDBACK(sorry font color noob here) ----
Although I do share this same feeling, I feel a large portion of the community does not. I will be very annoyed if I get blackened jaw or red feather garbage from this trial. If you leave the loot table this way here is what I suggest as a happy medium for your point of view and players who feel otherwise.
A. Take out any and ALL Blackened Jaw/Red feather
B. Make ONLY legendary tomm rings come from the trial/ Up the drop rate of purple companions
C. Make the weapon set MUCH more chase worthy. Currently players will not invest the average 20 Million a/d needed for this subpar upgrade, its more of a horizontal upgrade (set bonus need to be fair for all classes PLEASE REWORK)
I feel if you don't meet the players even 25 % of the way and take what im going to call the lazy way out and copy the TOMM loot table its a huge mistake.
IF I had to choose one of the above suggestions that you might consider since its clear which direction your heading with loot it would be option C
I will be the first person to say it. Might as well get the complain train going.
This trial needs better loot. ToMM rings are not a good enough incentive to continue running it after people have acquired their weapons. I suggest either new pet gear or something else otherwise the trial will be a failure.
I understand that some will consider a piece of content a failure if they are not encouraged to run it on repeat continually. However, we don't necessarily adhere to this same philosophy—particularly with very challenging content—it's okay if once you have the primary reward from the content you don't feel the compulsion to farm it continually. This is especially true because for some players, simply completing that content in the first place can be a monumental challenge.
However, we do appreciate the feedback, and are examining ways in the future we could provide ways to encourage more repeat play of challenging content for those so-inclined. The difficulty becomes that if those loops feel essential, they feel very punishing for those who cannot participate in that harder content. For now, we do hope that the power and status of having a superior weapon is something that can continue to feel good for tackling the most challenging content successfully.
This is the prime example of an idea that seems good and nice until you start actually thinking about it, then it's the worst of both world. If endgame players don't feel the need to do it and everyone else just can't, then you just made a content that's just not good for anyone involved. If something fails to engage the playerbase, it's a waste of resources and generally, a failure. It's too hard to be fun training for it and it's unrewarding to be doing after you've done with it and also people already with power and status gets the items, not the other way around. Also it's in no way solves the player's actual problem of a content being unavailable for them, because it's too hard and requires impossibly high stats for them. They won't be happy with it, they will be "fine" without it.
So, if the problem is being too punishing for those who cannot participate, then release it with good rewards then gradually decrease the difficulty until everyone will be able to do it (or at least, everyone who should be doing it). And just make an achievement + angel wings fashion cloak for those who do it in K-team challenge style (Deathless+reduced minimal item level). This means you don't even need to introduce the n-th weapon item level and a fashion is actually better at showing status then a weapon that almost no one notices unless they inspect you.
I understand that some will consider a piece of content a failure if they are not encouraged to run it on repeat continually. However, we don't necessarily adhere to this same philosophy—particularly with very challenging content—it's okay if once you have the primary reward from the content you don't feel the compulsion to farm it continually. This is especially true because for some players, simply completing that content in the first place can be a monumental challenge.
However, we do appreciate the feedback, and are examining ways in the future we could provide ways to encourage more repeat play of challenging content for those so-inclined. The difficulty becomes that if those loops feel essential, they feel very punishing for those who cannot participate in that harder content. For now, we do hope that the power and status of having a superior weapon is something that can continue to feel good for tackling the most challenging content successfully.
I actually like this idea in theory. Don't like it? Skip it! That would be really cool. Like the way I skipped SOMI and got the RD weapons instead because SOMI gave me migraines. But, there's not another weapon set with the same IL for me to get if I don't like Zariel or if I find the flashy lights nauseating. There isn't another new piece of content for me to do instead. And there won't be anything else until next year. That's a long time to wait with nothing to do.
If the newest content isn't supposed to be engaging to us past the first week or so to get the weapons .... then what IS supposed to engage our time? We get a small amount of new content about twice a year. If you're designing that new content in such a way and with rewards such that it's supposed to be played for a week, then we're waiting 5 3/4 months for the next week of playing? Realistically, you just wasted a bunch of your time if this is they way you're designing things.
Unless you are SIGNIFICANTLY going to increase the rate at which you are providing new content, which I doubt is possible, then this sort of attitude simply isn't going to cut it with retaining players. If we don't have anything to do, then we won't spend time on NW which means the content was a failure.
@kythelion#3210 they actually have increased the rate at which content is being released. In the past we would receive a major update every 3-4 months with only events breaking it up. The current Roadmap shows that there is 5 episodes of content plus various other things, plus other events that have had no changes made to them and are not listed on the Roadmap. Although I do understand your point that the best weapons for DPS and Healers only will come out of the new trial, your point was that you could get weapons in the next module. I see more content coming in the next 6 months than I have ever seen in the game in the past, it may not be a trial or a dungeon, but I do see more than this Trial as should you looking at the Rage of Bel and the new Campaign Zone in Mod 19.
I'm going to aim to keep an open mind. However, I will be a little concerned if it turns out that there's so little incentive to keep running Zariel after getting the weapons that latecomers will be mostly excluded as training runs dry up for them.
With ToMM there's a decent incentive to keep going for most players who have it on farm, whether it's AD from selling the top rewards or just farming for the uniquely-colored whirlwind mount, which is keeping the content accessible to learners.
Now, if it is the case that new content releases are being ramped up significantly, what asterdahl is saying may make more sense. Some other MMORPGs have balanced this design philosophy by doing some version of what was implemented with ToMM - a unique mount skin or other cosmetic reward that drops very rarely, is purchasable with special currency, or both. That way at least some players will continue to run it with this goal in mind, but the loot cycle and the economy aren't directly influenced.
I will be the first person to say it. Might as well get the complain train going.
This trial needs better loot. ToMM rings are not a good enough incentive to continue running it after people have acquired their weapons. I suggest either new pet gear or something else otherwise the trial will be a failure.
I understand that some will consider a piece of content a failure if they are not encouraged to run it on repeat continually. However, we don't necessarily adhere to this same philosophy—particularly with very challenging content—it's okay if once you have the primary reward from the content you don't feel the compulsion to farm it continually. This is especially true because for some players, simply completing that content in the first place can be a monumental challenge.
However, we do appreciate the feedback, and are examining ways in the future we could provide ways to encourage more repeat play of challenging content for those so-inclined. The difficulty becomes that if those loops feel essential, they feel very punishing for those who cannot participate in that harder content. For now, we do hope that the power and status of having a superior weapon is something that can continue to feel good for tackling the most challenging content successfully.
the problem is if there isn't the carrot of farming it many won't even bother. it costs millions and millions to gear up for this content. if there isn't some hope of making some of it back why go to the effort? and why wouldn't you want repeat value for your content. there is so little content out there we've been doing codg 50 times a day for a couple years now. it sure would be nice to have new content that was worth grinding for.
if we know that the only reason to do this dungeon is weapons that are just slightly better than the last content we spend millions and millions grinding for a good portion of us are gonna be like, well what's so bad about having a lions set. the bonus is better anyway.
Comments
edit: I really don't like the system of punishing the player for a successful run - however, this actually can be one possible version of training camps. You start with 5 stacks of "trainee buff" - lets say 5% damage received reduction per stack. Each successful run would remove one stack, five wins would mean the trial would finally have its full difficulty thrown at you - while you already should roughly know how things work there.
Arbiters already outdamage everyone on live. That's not new.
Yes, it's unbalanced, but it's not a sudden change on Preview or specific to this trial. More of a class discussion.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
You can balance it that at week 4+ you can carry as much as you want. This levels the gap is between those that finish first to those who will finish second and so on. A gap reducer, but not as punishment only, it has a positive side, and can be a "Season" thing with rewards.
Also we count successes only, so if someone wants to carry or not, they still get the loot.
Edit - Also the 'penalty' is non linear in nature, so it's not barring from helping others.
I think you're playing the arcanist.)
And I guess you want to stay in the TOP of DPS list just like you did it in M18, right? And you don't want any competition from other classes.
I think the Arbiters now have a chance to be on par with the other DSS classes. Thank to developers, for not forgetting about us.
Example:
Ruby Reinforcement: Increases control and control resistance by 1%
Diamond Reinforcement: Increases critical severity by 1%
Sapphire Reinforcement: Increases recovery (recharge rate) by 1%
Emerald Reinforcement: Increases move speed by 2%
Topaz Reinforcement: Increases companion damage by 4%
Opal Reinforcement: Increases deflection severity by 2%
Garnet Reinforcement: Increases health regeneration (out of combat) by 5%
Pearl Reinforcement: Increases incoming and outgoing healing by 1%
PC players cheat, this has been known since the beginning of the game. Setting FoV + zoom to the maximum value gives you a full view of the battlefield (it's looks bad, but tactical advantage is way bigger), you don't even have to move to see what's going on. Console players cannot do this! They have to look around every time something happens, camera rotation is also slow, even at maximum speed.
Some time ago the patch introduced a lower FoV, PC players started shouting loudly that they could not finish ToMM because they could not see the mechanics. It shows how this affects the gameplay.
https://www.howtogeek.com/241285/why-video-games-make-you-feel-sick-and-what-you-can-do-about-it/
And just in case you feel like being a history revisionist, here was the thread where people complained about FoV changes:
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1254935/field-of-view-changes/p1
Note, the largest complaint by far is about nausea.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
After getting their Celestial weapons, what is supposed to motivate people to continue run this content. That is, what unique (as in, not available from doing easier content), profitable (as in sellable) rewards does the trial have?
If the answer is "nothing", something failed in the design.
Phase 5 needs a buff imo, whether by more hp, or more complex combinations of mechanics (i would prefer this one), or a combination of both.
Please don‘t nerf the dps-check (p4). My groups overall damage isn‘t as high as @viraaal‘s, and we still managed to beat it, so my guess is, like with tomm, that after getting new weapons it will become easier and easier, and by nerfing the phase it will become pointless.
Also:
The loot is terrible. No tomm-rings, for obvious reasons. Players need a longterm-incentive to run the trial. Give us unbound, shiny, (new!) things.
Phase 1 - Push mechanic
The mechanic that pushes the group doesn't feel 'pushy' enough. I think we have never had any death or wipes from this mechanic because it is almost impossible to push you from the platform.Phase 2 - tank swap feedback
The time you have for switching aggro between the demons is pretty short. Furthermore their attack has a huge range as well. Maybe another 2 seconds or so to swap aggro would be nice.Phase 2 - Demon's tankbuster damage
The demon's tankbuster hits for roughly 3-4 mio damage which is often more difficult to survive than Zariel's tankbuster. A small damage decrease of the demon's tankbuster would be nice.-I am really concerned by the amount of hit points needed to survive for dps classes, e.g. for sword clusters or sword fall which are mechanics to eat alone but not only. Currently on preview server, everybody is "cheating" by slotting legendary 50k hit points mount and by slotting a +5% hit points glyph overload from hellpit event. This is not something desirable for the live version. You cannot ask everybody to have ALL this workarounds, on top of their endgame gear or enchants. A healthy 450-475k toon (which is already 100k more than a mod 18 character with good gear) should be able to cope with the mechanics and not die in loop after his first death. I assume that this is probably a strategy to avoid people being overcapped too early with upcoming gear but still...Please tone down a bit the damage and keep of course the deadly mechanics.
-Same applies to tanks, the big damage on them should be reduced (not by a significant amount), especially with the healing changes...
-For the dps checks, I don't think it should be buffed. Groups that passed the trial had overperforming arbiters and should not be the reference. A decent DPS group with very few resurrection sicknesses is entitled to pass it. I am also thinking of groups with some players that would not have Lionheart weapons, so with less damage..
- Celestial Blade portals: not sure if the 1sec between the red color on the ground and the striking is intended. Should be one sec longer or more (that's what red is supposed to announce, and what about players with terrible ping or latency?). We can dodge the damage partially but if I had to choose, I would prefer to have the position myself correctly or to die.
- Wingflap: ok we are pushed. Is that to give the healers some rest
-DPS check of Shade of fire and shade of ice: I would add some other attacks to the demons (obviously not on the tanks and healers as they have much to do).
-There is something missing in the mechanics. Cannot really tell what, but maybe a random order of the mechanics at some point.
-Rewards: Some specific rewards should be created on top of celestial weapons. Or like the Halaster mount, maybe to create a NPC that would sell some cool stuff or wards or overloads or whatever, in exchange of your completion scrolls.
< /font >
Is the expectation here that an Oathkeeper or Soulweaver is always pre-shielding for this mechanic, or is there an interaction that needs to be observed, like distance between origin point and target affecting the damage?
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
However, we do appreciate the feedback, and are examining ways in the future we could provide ways to encourage more repeat play of challenging content for those so-inclined. The difficulty becomes that if those loops feel essential, they feel very punishing for those who cannot participate in that harder content. For now, we do hope that the power and status of having a superior weapon is something that can continue to feel good for tackling the most challenging content successfully.
Thank you for the feedback! I am glad to hear you're enjoying the trial, and the visuals! Our effects team worked hard to build some unique visuals this time around—what's currently on preview is still not final as well, I hope you'll check back and see the final visuals once the module launches. We have some exciting things planned!
In regards to the current damage tuning, I did significantly boost some of the tuning near the end of the closed beta at the players' request, and that may be reined in slightly as we gather data and make our final adjustments. There are some mechanical tweaks that I would like to make as well, some that I have been hoping to make but simply have not had time to due to conflicting tasks, and some based on all of your feedback.
P.S. The power in question "Weight of Virtue" was called "Whitenoise" during much of the closed beta, before the final names were decided upon. I do apologize for any confusion this may have caused as players from the closed beta discuss the mechanics of this fight. I do greatly appreciate if those who were in the closed beta could refer to powers by their final names. Difficulties like this sometimes crop up with providing early looks at content. I appreciate your patience!
Iteration on this trial has been a bit more difficult than ToMM due to COVID and my development time also being allocated to healing adjustments and other unannounced work. However, I do have some time in the near future that I will be devoting to making further adjustments. In general, you can expect that some of the numbers tuning may be slightly reduced in places, but mechanical complexity and difficulty in other places will increase. In particular, as you point out, phase 5 is much too easy for the final phase of the fight. This is definitely an area I will be focusing on.
I'm also glad to see that you're considering maintaining and, in some places, increasing mechanical complexity while perhaps taking slight pressure off of the damage values for certain mechanics.
A lot of players bristle when any perceived nerfing of difficult content is discussed, but this is the rare occasion that I play devil's advocate.
- For those of us with the resources onhand, having to rebalance stats to include significantly more HP beyond ToMM standards is merely an annoyance. We swap some things around until we feel comfy and then proceed to play the same way.
- Our friends who are maybe doing okay in ToMM or who are just working their way into training are incredibly far from being able to deal with Zariel. By the time these players can survive basic phase 1 mechanics in Zariel, the rest of the server will have moved on to the next big thing.
I'd suggest setting the goal post for base HP values a little lower while increasing the expectation for high performance in handling mechanics. The real test of difficulty should lie more with individual player skill that way, and less with their base endurance and ability to secure the strongest possible shields to save them from said mechanics.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
Although I do share this same feeling, I feel a large portion of the community does not. I will be very annoyed if I get blackened jaw or red feather garbage from this trial. If you leave the loot table this way here is what I suggest as a happy medium for your point of view and players who feel otherwise.
A. Take out any and ALL Blackened Jaw/Red feather
B. Make ONLY legendary tomm rings come from the trial/ Up the drop rate of purple companions
C. Make the weapon set MUCH more chase worthy. Currently players will not invest the average 20 Million a/d needed for this subpar upgrade, its more of a horizontal upgrade (set bonus need to be fair for all classes PLEASE REWORK)
I feel if you don't meet the players even 25 % of the way and take what im going to call the lazy way out and copy the TOMM loot table its a huge mistake.
IF I had to choose one of the above suggestions that you might consider since its clear which direction your heading with loot it would be option C
So, if the problem is being too punishing for those who cannot participate, then release it with good rewards then gradually decrease the difficulty until everyone will be able to do it (or at least, everyone who should be doing it). And just make an achievement + angel wings fashion cloak for those who do it in K-team challenge style (Deathless+reduced minimal item level). This means you don't even need to introduce the n-th weapon item level and a fashion is actually better at showing status then a weapon that almost no one notices unless they inspect you.
I actually like this idea in theory. Don't like it? Skip it! That would be really cool. Like the way I skipped SOMI and got the RD weapons instead because SOMI gave me migraines. But, there's not another weapon set with the same IL for me to get if I don't like Zariel or if I find the flashy lights nauseating. There isn't another new piece of content for me to do instead. And there won't be anything else until next year. That's a long time to wait with nothing to do.
If the newest content isn't supposed to be engaging to us past the first week or so to get the weapons .... then what IS supposed to engage our time? We get a small amount of new content about twice a year. If you're designing that new content in such a way and with rewards such that it's supposed to be played for a week, then we're waiting 5 3/4 months for the next week of playing? Realistically, you just wasted a bunch of your time if this is they way you're designing things.
Unless you are SIGNIFICANTLY going to increase the rate at which you are providing new content, which I doubt is possible, then this sort of attitude simply isn't going to cut it with retaining players. If we don't have anything to do, then we won't spend time on NW which means the content was a failure.
With ToMM there's a decent incentive to keep going for most players who have it on farm, whether it's AD from selling the top rewards or just farming for the uniquely-colored whirlwind mount, which is keeping the content accessible to learners.
Now, if it is the case that new content releases are being ramped up significantly, what asterdahl is saying may make more sense. Some other MMORPGs have balanced this design philosophy by doing some version of what was implemented with ToMM - a unique mount skin or other cosmetic reward that drops very rarely, is purchasable with special currency, or both. That way at least some players will continue to run it with this goal in mind, but the loot cycle and the economy aren't directly influenced.
Contagion - Cleric
Testament - Wizard
Pestilence - Ranger
Dominion - Paladin
NIGHTSWATCH
if we know that the only reason to do this dungeon is weapons that are just slightly better than the last content we spend millions and millions grinding for a good portion of us are gonna be like, well what's so bad about having a lions set. the bonus is better anyway.