CDP Topic: VIP

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Comments

  • milehighxr#1299
    milehighxr#1299 Member Posts: 429 Arc User
    No reduction in the rate of free keys, even if the odds of lockboxes are adjusted to be better than they are now. For me personally I would like more free keys, or to trade the potions of health for free keys. I view the potions of health as worthless, as they don't heal my tank for very many HP, and the cooldown is too long, plus it takes out any other healing item in the potion try on use.

    There is nothing else that can be offered to me in place of keys, and in fact I am currently on the fence about reupping my vip at this time anyhow(expires in less than 2 weeks).

    For me ranks mean nothing, as I am now at rank 12 and there was no real benefit for to go past 8, other than the bigger discount in the wonderous bazaar.

    Current benefits I like in order of importance:

    Free keys

    no fees to poast in auction house- not that I am huge seller, but it would reduce my selling significantly if I had to pay posting fees to list and lose that when the item doesn't sell for what I want, the 10% take on the sale of stuff is bad enough.

    chest reroll tokens

    discount in wonderous bazaar

    invoke anywhere

    travel sign post

    As for proposed new benefits:

    I like the idea of increased odds on lockboxes, but they need to be closer to 1-5% for the best items. And honestly all items that drop from lockboxes should be unbound, ALL. I hate getting a legendary tool that is BtC on pick up. I don't even open lockboxes that have crafting stuff in the list as I don't craft, I can't use it. It is worthless to sell it for gold, and since legendary tools are BtC, I can't trade to someone that can use it. I had a trade all worked out for the one legendary tool I got, and I had to anger the guy by cancelling cuz I didn't realize it was BtC on pick up. To get a legendary tool, and not be able to trade/sell it is unacceptable, when I can sell legendary mounts.

    I like the idea of increased daily rad, but I am also concerned it could hurt the economy the same way the adx cap raise did. Xbox was doing, and too a lesser extent PS was doing just fine with a adx cap of 500. There was absolutely no reason to raise it on console except to make it look fairer to the PC folks, and there is still a one month backlog on PC as I understand it.

    All the others you proposed are just bad.

    New benefits I would like to see:

    Ability to call up guild bank anywhere like regular bank.

    More free keys in place of health potions, or way to trade health potions for keys at a rate of 5 potions per key. Basically giving us 2 keys instead of one and a health potion.




  • gastndorf#9723
    gastndorf#9723 Member Posts: 2 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    Interesting, I thought that there could be improvements to VIP a couple times, so this is a good time to discuss it.

    - The rate of free keys: Honestly, 1 feels pretty bare after a while. If you really want to improve the odds of boxes, fair enough, or don't change it, this isn't really improving anything. But don't offer less than one key a day, that would be a big loss of value.

    - Alternate to keys: As much as the idea of having an added currency to VIP regarding daily bonus is exciting, I wouldn't see it replace the keys, again it would feel like a loss, especially if the items you get are of less value.
    A key on the Zen market is 125 Zen (1,25 bucks, 93750 AD at max value, and we all know that the average reward in the lockboxes is way less than that), you would have to equal that. This is the price range of 12 pres wards, a MOP6 etc..., if you feel like this would be a possible daily bonuses you could get from these currencies then fine by me.

    - Ranks: I don't know how it would feel to remove the ranks, on one hand it would be beneficial to the greater majority of people and I'd imagine those who don't have VIP would be enticed to get it, but at the same time the ranks entice you to get more ranks, except that it's just until you capped it. There's also the fact that the higher ranks add less enjoyable feature, welcomed ones but still, it's mostly rebates. Also if the removal of ranks come with devalued VIP features, then I'm 100% against it.

    Many times I actually thought it would be nice to have more ranks, maybe stretch out the rebates between ranks a little more, and have more meaningful added functions like the portable summons and others...

    - Current Benefits: My favorite is definitely the portable signpost, it is a huge timesaver, and I really have a hard time imagining coming back to the game without having it.

    Then there are the daily keys and reroll tokens, this is what adds weight to the value quite litteraly, this is what makes me come back to the game everyday without skipping a single one. The key, I kind of explained why earlier, while the reroll tokens quite simply put, I would never reroll without them, because rerolling for 5k AD mostly for crappy gear and rough AD that are worth nothing until refined (and possibly less than 5k) is a big no no, so I really appreciate having them.

    I also appreciate a lot the quality of life stuff like portable mail and bank (saves you travelling back and forth) and the injury immunity (because carrying tons of injury kits is annoying and that red message spam which says "you are injured" is awful).

    - New Benefits: The part I was waiting for... Here are some ideas I came up with, just know that I value QoL things that saves time more than anything, some of these idea might even be good outside of VIP if you consider it.

    For the workshop:
    *Ability to craft in bulk with morale, say I want to craft that item 10 times, I input the number then everything goes in my inventory, the gamewould have calculates how many fail, how many gets +1 and how many times the artisan perk applies on those 10.
    *Increased morale, reduced cost and or time: It doesn't have to be high, between 10-25% would be good.
    *No morale cost when you use the workshop remotely from the menu
    *Ability to auto-sell your production: let's face it, we mostly use the workshop to sell the products directly to gold, so the idea would be that when you craft with or without morale, you could select an option to auto-sell the product when it's ready. The workshop would have a separate bank that can cap similar to how the delivery box works.
    *A shared profession bag between all characters, because it's so annoying to remember who has what
    *An extra row in the delivery box

    Then other things without a common theme:
    *Summon once for everyone: when you pray once, all your characters receive the benefits of it, would save a lot of time swapping between every one of them to summon, basically idling between a lot of load screens. I just don't know if it is possible due to the characters being offline... or add a button to the character selection that lets you pray in the menu directly, to save you from loading that many times.
    *Alternatively to the above, having a very fast loading instance for your character to spawn in (a tent, a bedroom, things like these), and you could select to respawn there everytime you log in this character in the options.
    *No fee from selling on the auction house
    *More legacy campaign quests (from Sybella)
    *Extra currency from campaign quests: again doesn't have to be high, 10-25%, but should be rounded up in case you receive like 1 or 2 items
    *A scroll of mass life in addition to the daily leveled potions
    *An up to date seal merchant with all the latest seals
    *Extra appearances only accessible to VIP, just to show off
    *Special quests only accessible to VIP with nice little rewards

    Things you mentionned like extra rAD refinement or an updated VIP extra HP (because 5k HP is ridiculous and basically not a real bonus) are good ones I can get behind.

    I'm prety sure I forgot good ones I came up with. Of course a lot of them feel like it's just more things but it's more on the expection that there would be extra vip ranks and this may be not the route you expect to take... Anyway as a closing word, if you ever change something make sure what you offer instead is better or at least equal to what was there before because you can be sure that if it's not the case, players will find out and many people will get angry, won't renew their subscriptions if they're at loss, even if it's still somehow benefitial, it just would feel nor worth it anymore.
    Post edited by gastndorf#9723 on
  • tempus86#1158
    tempus86#1158 Member Posts: 165 Arc User

    Here’s a crazy idea, and I don’t want to read all the posts to get up to date,

    Whatever you all agree to/come up with - cash us all out on our existing VIP and relaunch it. I’d be good with it and it would be a good way to get out of the lockbox game - those days are coming to an end as it is.


    Seconded.

    This is a plan so cunning you could pin a tail on it and call it a weasel
  • wozkeo#1612
    wozkeo#1612 Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    I like VIP as it is and would just prefer you to extend the ranks to like 15 or something.
    Also moving Travel Post to Rank 1 VIP would be a good move imo to get new players on board quick before quitting the game .
  • catson#7772
    catson#7772 Member Posts: 81 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    Less keys but higher chance? Sure, but 2x / 3x chance from near 0, is still near 0


    Fee for AH? Please no, thats huge reason VIP is worth to have.
    Unless you cap Listing FEE at certain amount and at the same time you give VIP less Sales Fee instead of 10%.


    All ranks of VIP from start? I kinda liked to have that goal to reach rank 12 at first. One of few goals that game has, and having 25% discount exclusive to max rank gives some opportunity to make some money on reselling MOPs.

    extra cap on RAD? Please no, why? Would have to play more to grind for that cap, and this game is already tiresome.


    Changing loadouts wherever? I don't find it necessary, maybe make it work at portable altars?

    Health gain? Right now i don't even notice it exists, make it more noticeable? sure. But fixing CON would be nice too.


    What would new benefits I'd like? extra 4th active item slot, gotta put my chair somewhere.


    How about fixing some bugs instead of messing with VIP right now and creating new ones?
  • rubytrue
    rubytrue Member Posts: 565 Arc User
    edited January 2020

    Feedback Overview

    Understanding what it means to be VIP and how to incentivize the player base to invest in VIP

    Feedback Goal

    Create an understanding of VIP that benefits both players and Cryptic

    Feedback Functionality

    When we talk about VIP, we need to realize that VIP stands for Very Important Person. For Cryptic, the "Very Important Person" is the person who spends (and/or will potentially spend) real world dollars in the game; for the player, the "Very Important Person" is the person (self) who has invested both time and/or money in the game and would like to see a return on that investment.

    VIP status,currently, is something in-game that is purchased with Zen. That isn't going to change. Most people who purchase VIP, however, don't *feel* like a VIP because after R12, there isn't any increased return on investment. The reality is that for most players, VIP is, in actuality, little more than an in-game Quality of Life upgrade. And that is OK. As far as I am concerned, the quality of life upgrades is totally worth the price of VIP.

    But if you want to make me, the player, feel like a VIP, you need to recognize the contribution that I make to the game. From Cryptic's perspective that is a combination of time and money spent in/on the game.

    I'm perfectly happy with the benefits R12 VIP provides, and in fact, initially purchased 12 months of VIP so I could unlock them all at once. I grew to like those QoL enhancements that VIP afforded, so I continued to purchase VIP since its inception. By and large, I think that is true for all players. I think it is a good business decision to unlock all tiers for VIP benefits from the very beginning. I think this not only levels the playing field for everyone who has VIP (not everyone can purchase 12 months at a time), but it provides an incentive to not leave those QoL behind by dropping VIP.

    The problem is how do you make those players who have, up until now, supported the game in both time and money feel special if everyone gets the same benefits? The answer, I believe, is relatively simple: in-game recognition/reward for the length of time a player has had VIP. The game currently has bonus rewards for when Neverwinter reaches anniversary milestones, why not have anniversary rewards for the amount of time a player has had VIP? The more years you have played with VIP status, the greater the reward on the anniversary. One way to think about those rewards is to look at them as akin to lockbox streakbreakers. (The streakbreaker mechanic in refining is something all players appreciate.) I know for some folks who've had VIP for four or more years and have never gotten a legendary mount out of a lockbox, it can be kind of discouraging when they see a relatively new player hit the RNG jackpot and have two or more legendary mounts. It really takes away that feeling of being a "Very Important Person." But if that person were guaranteed, say, a legendary mount choice pack after two years of VIP, that would signal from Cryptic that they consider that player to be a "Very Important Person" to the longevity and overall health of the game. After all, that player will have spent two years, and ostensibly, roughly $240 on VIP. Considering that Cryptic was selling legendary mounts for ~$80 (before discounts) in the Zen store, that isn't outrageous. Moreover, once you take into consideration of Legendary Mount drop rates of approx. .17%, two years of VIP at one key per day would serve as a nice backdrop/safety net for acquiring a Legendary Mount.

    What ongoing VIP anniversary rewards look like is something players could provide feedback for in another CDP.

    Risks & Concerns

    If you have, generally, (valuable) guaranteed rewards, the larger your player base (truly incentivizing VIP will increase the player base again), the greater the supply of currently rare(r) items resulting in a shift in the in-game economy. People who've capitalized on moving rare items would potentially be up in arms because their inventory would potentially be less valuable. Overall, however, I don't see this as that big of a problem: for one, those players are a relatively small percentage of the player base; two, part of the reason why that part of the player base is successful in the market is their ability to adapt to changing market conditions; and, three, increased market liquidity results in more players making transactions (whether in Zen market or AH) injecting both real world dollars into the game while at the same time removing excess AD from the game from increased AH transactions.
  • mordekai#1901
    mordekai#1901 Member Posts: 1,598 Arc User


    Hi Mordekai,



    Thanks for your post. I am rank 4. Note this is the first time I have even opened up the panel to check. I wasn’t pointed to it’s existence in any tutorial in the game. As I mentioned before in this CDP this is a problem in of itself in regard to VIP perceived value and engagement from players. However as per the accessibility CDP, solving this issue will be part of Streamlining.



    Chris

    Understandable. And from the darkest depths of my memory, I don't remember what first led me down the route of VIP, but I do recall wanting to get to... whatever Rank gives Signpost. 4? I think???

    It's one of those things that when you start using it you wonder how you got along without it. The sheer time it saves farting about finding portals is worth every penny of VIP alone. If there were one thing that was removed
    that would lead me to quit, it would be that bloody sign post.

    Building a more comprehensive guide to this stuff would certainly be a big help.
    I don't know about numbers and don't imagine there's any way to tell, but I for one had never committed to a proper MMO before Neverwinter.
    I've dabbled with a few since, but my main interest was that it was D&D, and looked and felt a lot like Neverwinter Nights 2, which was my favourite game prior to NWO.

    It's not my area of expertise, but I imagine that a prestige title like D&D will draw a lot of interest from the players of that game, (like me) who have no prior experience in MMO style games.

    There have always been a LOT of assumptions about a new player's understanding of how "stuff" works. And I just didn't understand most of it. It's taken a long time to become even moderately proficient in the game lore, and I still don't fully understand how damage is calculated... every time I think I've got it, someone somewhere says, "No dumbass, it works like THIS..."

    Just so you know, the accessibility to a lot of stuff in the two main menus has improved over time. Though I don't believe the new player experience has been particularly well attended to. A lot is left to Guilds and 3rd party guides to provide that stuff.

    When the drive is ever forward, it takes someone to come in fresh at a high enough level within the organisation and say, "hold on a minute..."

    In my experience, when looking at this sort of stuff, the areas to focus on are usually the ones where, when asked, "Why does it work like this?" the answer is... "We've always done it that way..."
    Those are the areas most ripe for re-invigoration, and I believe that the accessibility/player guide stuff falls right into that slot.

    But I'll shut up now as I've drifted back into the last CDP Topic, which is not likely to help this one.
  • wozkeo#1612
    wozkeo#1612 Member Posts: 5 Arc User
    > @wozkeo#1612 said:
    > I like VIP as it is and would just prefer you to extend the ranks to like 15 or something.
    > Also moving Travel Post to Rank 1 VIP would be a good move imo to get new players on board quick before quitting the game .

    Just to add context
    Travel post is in rank 1
    New players after say a 2 week active account they have felt the slog of the running to doors .
    They recieve a free 1 week VIP in the mail.
    They have a taste of the new shiny travel post .
    This will make more people purchase 1 month imo when it expires.
    Then when it runs out they will miss it so much they buy again and now they rank 2 .
    That's my 2 pence anyway 🤷‍♂️
  • fluffy6977
    fluffy6977 Member Posts: 291 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    A little about me as requested – former endgame player, sort of endgame-lite (I can do the content, I just don’t care for the hassle of finding a group etc, sold off high level enchants on Wizard to boost all 7 other class toons). Wiz is still 24kish, the rest are between 21k and 23k with R13 or higher bondings/weapon enchants. When I do log in to play I usually run a couple dungeons and farm legacy campaigns, often rotating characters to keep it interesting. I have played since shortly after launch on Xbox, and survived Mod 6. I lead a small guild of people who rarely have time to play, and have almost singlehandedly got it up to GH 8 before apathy set in. I also tend to come across brimming with emotion – I’m not. Passion maybe, definitely no emotion. Except for the 2nd question. Plenty of emotion there after buying keys for cash for weeks to stockpile tradebars..

    Feedback Overview
    The rate of free keys
    We currently grant a key a day, which is 30 a month. We want to preserve the value of VIP, so if lockbox odds are improved by 2x or even 3x, how would you view altering the rate of free keys to keep a similar value?


    Lockboxes aren’t worth opening since the unasked-for update to them and the major nerf to daily drop values. As someone who has bought (cash/ADX) somewhere around 3-4k keys over the years and enjoyed it immensely, I’ve not touched the new lockboxes and have no plans to. Having said that, to preserve the present value of VIP, grant all keys on purchase of VIP and get rid of the daily doling. Admittedly this helps folks like me (Full time worker, regular weekly OT and averaging 9 credits a quarter in undergrad engineering – I don’t always have time to log on and collect that key).

    Alternates to keys
    How would you feel about getting a currency with VIP that allowed you to get items other than keys from your daily login? Would you choose to get wards, enchanting stones, or other valuable items instead of keys if you had that option?


    I’m actually quite angered by this question – you took the wards and other valuables out of the tradebar store right before they were supposed to be added (xbox) and now you suggest giving us a completely different currency to buy them with?
    Put. Them. Back. In. The. Tradebar. Store. It would actually give some value to the daily key. While you’re at it add companion upgrade tokens and reroll tokens and whatever else you were thinking of for this “VIP store” – you already have an almost unused store, no need to reinvent the wheel.

    Ranks
    How would you feel about the removal of ranks on VIP, granting full benefits of VIP 12 while active? What do you value about ranks?


    Get rid of the ranks. There is no player benefit to ranks.

    Current Benefits
    Which of the current benefits of VIP do you value and why?


    Travel signpost, summoned merchant, mailbox and bank vault are the only remaining perks I value. Honestly, at this point I will not be renewing VIP when it runs out later this year – the value is not there, and the cash can be better spent elsewhere.

    New Benefits
    What would you like to see added in terms of benefits?


    Add a bonus to TB drops from lockboxes for VIP members to help balance out the lockbox value/lack thereof and encourage VIP participation.

    Auction House
    Having one group able to list an item, de-list, and re-list again at no cost/penalty to undercut is not healthy for the Auction House and we’d like that to be a better experience for everyone. What are your thoughts in regard to this statement?


    Get rid of no posting fee for VIP. Honestly there are two main problems with the AH as it stands. 1 – you can have 2160 auction slots if you max out character slots. AH (on console at least) only shows 400 results. I have, many, many times, been in a selling war with a certain person on Xbox in the Pres Ward market who will list his pres wards in stacks of 1 at a slight undercut. Limit it to 40/account. This will also help with the cabal problem, since a large amount of their ability to control the market price is based on being able to flood the market and undercut anyone else. You could then add +20 AH slots to VIP perks.

    The second major problem is the lack of posting fees. The ability to post anything for any price with no penalty caused prices to run away across the board, until items are no longer in demand and then they are worthless. Re-instate the posting fee, with the caveat that if the item sells for the posted price the posting fee will be refunded, and if the item is removed or fails to sell the posting fee is forfeit. This will encourage sellers to price their goods at the market clearing rate and not above it.

    Other thoughts:
    • Wondrous Bazaar discount should be eliminated – it devalues game drops of Marks of Potency by quite a lot, since you can almost always find marks on the AH for nearly as cheap, if not cheaper, than the discount.
    • Do not remove the reroll tokens please. Maybe give us an option between 3 reroll tokens or 1 BtC Legendary Dragon key (per toon, same as it is now)?
    • I’m ambivalent about increasing RAD refinement for VIP holders. Doesn’t sound like a well thought out move, sounds like it will just drive in game inflation faster.
    • The ability to change loadouts outside of combat should be available for everyone. Changes like this are close to pay to win when included.
    • Please do not give stats out for VIP. Straight pay to win.
    • A nice potential VIP perk would be a crafting bag or vault. Account wide access to all crafting materials in the workshop – Honestly this would probably help with server performance, instead of having 5 bajillion stacks of iron ore across my 22 of toons the server has to remember each load, it could all consolidate into one place and be easily accessible when crafting. I would be willing to pay for that, instead of having to collect x of y on toon a and send it to toon b to create item z. I actually pay for something similar in two other games I play.
    Feedback Goal

    Return value to VIP and remove some of the more problematic parts of it, help balance game economy.

    Feedback Functionality

    This section doesn’t make sense for this CDP. See Feedback Overview.

    Risks and Concerns

    No matter what changes you make a good chunk of the player base will likely be annoyed. We did pay for a specific service and you are altering the deal after taking our money.
  • mordekai#1901
    mordekai#1901 Member Posts: 1,598 Arc User


    Travel post is in rank 1

    New players after say a 2 week active account they have felt the slog of the running to doors .

    They recieve a free 1 week VIP in the mail.

    They have a taste of the new shiny travel post .

    This will make more people purchase 1 month imo when it expires.

    Then when it runs out they will miss it so much they buy again and now they rank 2 .

    That's my 2 pence anyway 🤷‍♂️

    Yep, that signpost is like crack.
    Put a special VIP tester period in those level up crates for your first character, and give them that sign post for a week, and if they continue with the game into the end game, they're buying VIP.

    Cynical? Mebbe...
    Brutally pragmatic? Probably...
    Good for the game? I'd say yes.
  • rangerreek
    rangerreek Member Posts: 56 Arc User
    The rate of free keys
    -Rate of free keys is fine. Like many have said increasing the odds by 2 or 3x isn't a noticeable difference as it ends up still being less than 1%.

    Alternates to keys
    - The theory of a VIP currency is sound, but the practice may be hard to pull off. Adding valuable items to the VIP store would be paramount. Things such as Load-outs, Race Change, Bank Slots, etc. would be enticing for some. Also, add keys and re-roll tokens to the store on top f the ones that are already given to the VIPs.

    Ranks
    - Removing ranks is not necessary. Having the ranks more meaningful is. One incentive could be ti increase the cap of RAD based on the Rank of VIP. Start it at Rnk five and increase every rank for a total of 35% increase equaling a total of 135k RAD a day.

    Current Benefits
    - With the exception of the Moonstone Mask teleport, I find value in all of the amenities I have access to at rnk 12. Invoking anywhere, no injuries, the travel sign post, the bank, and the mailbox are the things I value more due to the QoL improvements they have.

    New Benefits
    - My favorite proposed new benefit would be the ability to change load-outs. I will go into that in more detail in the feedback portion.One thing that would be useful would be access to SH Bank, and coffers. Another fun idea would be to have a "Fashion Catalog" of transmutes available to VIP members (I know this is going to be met with disdain from some of you, but come on don't harsh my mellow!), and maybe also a way to purchase vanity pets.

    Auction House
    - Not having posting fees for VIP is a benefit that many players look forward to. Getting rid of it would be problematic. Instead of replacing that maybe add a timer/amount to the listing to reduce the under cutting that occurs.



    Feedback Overview
    -Adding the functionality to switch between load outs away from campfires.

    Feedback Goal
    - The goal of the feedback is to foster a conversation regarding the use of load outs in a meaningful way to increase a player's use/enjoyment of load outs overall, and to add a VIP function to the ability to change between load outs.

    Feedback Functionality
    - Having multiple load outs for your character is a nice way to be prepared for any thing that you may come across in the game. Restricting the change at campfires only greatly reduces players want to switch. If you give players the ability to switch their load outs freely, out of combat, they will be ready for any situation they are going to come in contact with. An example would be a rangers ability to go from Melee Warden to a Hunter Archer Build while travelling between areas. Players often plan out their paths to their next objective and being able to switch to match the next challenge before you get there without having to veer toward a campfire would make their time more valuable.
    - Adding the ability to do it in combat, as well, would greatly impact a group's ability to complete a dungeon run if it is getting a little rough. If you switch during combat you will have a cool down applied (maybe 30 minutes?) so as not to abuse the change inside of queued random content.
    - Adding a decreased timer to VIP members (15 minutes, down from 30) would be a way to further entice people to look into getting ranks of VIP.


    Risks & Concerns
    - People don't use load outs as much as I think they do (unless it is a support class)
    - Adding a cool down will deter people from using them any way.

    Fight with honor, die with glory!
  • neidanman#1423
    neidanman#1423 Member Posts: 82 Arc User
    Feedback Overview - Auction house listing fees
    Feedback Goal - making it viable to sell high ticket items that sell slowly and need multiple relisting e.g. legendary mounts, high rank weapon enchants etc
    Feedback Functionality - If you had to keep paying fees to list these items each time you could lose out quite badly. Maybe instead you could have an early removal fee, so people legitimately relisting multiple times, but leaving the item on the market for its full listing time, aren't adversely affected. But if people want to keep removing them to relist, then they would take a financial penalty.
  • jules#6770
    jules#6770 Member Posts: 708 Arc User

    VIP ranks benefits for all regardless how long they have VIP? No thanks, it is at least something that makes people increase their ranks. You what, you want everyone to have same benefits? What's the purpose of VIP then? Bad idea.

    I forgot to talk about this in my post, so I will steal yours as an intro please:
    VIP Ranks are that total mysterious thing to new people that doesn't seem to make much sense at the get-go. What even is the Bazaar and why would I buy stuff at so many different stores? I need to buy a year to get access to everything?
    I remember being confused by this, and I think it might seem to be an accessibility-issue where we (the players promoting the ranks) are not completely understood:
    I do not care if a newbie buys 12 months at once to have Rank 12 or not. I do not use it to feel better about my vet self. Is this a thought? I don't know. I do not need to have an advantage OVER somebody, I think I deserve an improvement for dedicating myself/my money/my time to a game for over 12 months.
    When I play, I am surrounded by new players (It may sound offensive, but it is not, it is actually quite nice with most of them) and I do remember my time as a new player, too, and I do not need an advantage on the market over them in a form the VIP currently offers, because I figure I might understand the market better/have better ways to make AD than some of them, because they are new. I do not keep those ways to myself, I share them, as many many vets do with their guildies, alliance members, friends.
    I do not view the ranks as a way to keep the newbies low.
    I see it as a way of the game saying (outdated) Thank you for sticking around.
    I can see how you want the game to more accessible and newcomer-friendly. Thats perfectly fine, good, understandable. But progression is not some form of locking players out of something, just a friendly reminder that the game is big and there is a lot to reach, to achieve.
    Ranks, among other things, in my opinion make the player consider how much they like a game and if they even wanna go there. A good game can only win from this.
    - bye bye -
  • thefiresidecat
    thefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited January 2020

    Feedback Overview - Auction house listing fees
    Feedback Goal - making it viable to sell high ticket items that sell slowly and need multiple relisting e.g. legendary mounts, high rank weapon enchants etc
    Feedback Functionality - If you had to keep paying fees to list these items each time you could lose out quite badly. Maybe instead you could have an early removal fee, so people legitimately relisting multiple times, but leaving the item on the market for its full listing time, aren't adversely affected. But if people want to keep removing them to relist, then they would take a financial penalty.

    imo undercutting is fine. you're still penalizing the poorer person who gets a lucky drop over the richer ppl who aren't phased by ad loss. they need to just get rid of the fees for everyone and leave it at that. there is nothing wrong wtih the market as it is.

    lucky poor person gets widget worth 7 mil. they have 30k to their name. they are like YAY I can finally upgrade my widgets!!! they post it for 6.8 mil hoping it sells quick. pissed off rich person with nine of them. undercuts them with all 9 of their identical widgets. now poor person is sad. he can't afford the fee. and his item doesn't sell.

    the truely rich people tend to have many multiple accounts as well. if they really wanted to dodge fees they'd just hop on to their alt account and not feel it at all while mr newtothegame is left high and dry.

    people get all up in arms. undercutting omg.. meanies. I want mine to sell first...but that's how auctions and buy it now works. it's really not a big deal. but it is when you start trying to control it like that.


    also as mentioned before undercutting is actually healthy for hte market because it keeps prices reasonable. if you make undercutting difficult prices will be and remain sky high. great for sellers bad for people trying to keep up.

    also one of the strategies of the market is when you think there is an emerging market and there isn't much for sale but you know people will notice it and undercut you. you price is really high so the price doesn't set at a ridiculous price point once undercutting does start. it's all part of the strategy.

    not broke doesn't need fixing. does need equality. make it so no one pays a entry fee. just an exit fee. it's all fair that way.
  • cwhitesidedev#9752
    cwhitesidedev#9752 Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 253 Cryptic Developer
    FYI I will be semi afk today and tomorrow on the thread. Family stuff, playing the game and so on.

    So much to think about already, thanks for your contributions.

    Chris
  • rickcase276
    rickcase276 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,399 Arc User
    What I would like to see is maybe get keys once a week, but with it being a chance to get between maybe 5-15 keys randomly. And once a lockbox is say over 2 years old, they would be able to be automatically opened without using keys. I am certain there are more people out there like me that have 1000s of different keys that they will never end up using.

    The rest of VIP should stay the same, other than maybe up the HP provided as that has been the same since the level cap was 60.
  • littledanger#4115
    littledanger#4115 Member Posts: 71 Arc User
    We all talk about undercutting on the AH. But WE all know that anybody with a brain, straight up trades any item of value; of course this takes more time and effort. But how many awesome stories have you heard about trade chat “flippers” that started with 2 widgets and turned it into a rank 14 negation over the course of week via horse trading.

    You only post items in the AH when you are looking for AD, have time to kill or are looking to “stick it” to others.
  • tanais58crane
    tanais58crane Member Posts: 111 Arc User
    edited January 2020

    Hello Nebo,

    It was not an exploit. It was not a bug either:

    'We have been exploring improved chase item odds in lockboxes internally. This has been an ongoing experiment, and while it wasn't ready to release yet for a few reasons, the exploratory work had been done during the same time as other Infernal Descent (M18) work. When we decided to hold the changes for a later release, we missed (turning of) the Stardock lock-box (experimental version) and players experienced a partial set of changes to that lock box in the early hours of launch.'

    It was our fault. We are working hard to ensure our release quality improves and you can see aspects of this in Mod 18 already. I appreciate your opinion but sorry I don't agree. Whilst this is an off topic comment i would like it to stay here so folks can see the difference between the incident and the CDP topic.

    Thanks

    Chris

    From the point of view of most players this would not had been an impediment for a banhammer witch-hunt in the 'old days'. It would help your ongoing efforts to change the playerbase's view on the developer team if you let them at large know through a blog post or something of the sort that this is why you aren't punishing those that got the free legendary mounts.

    Thank you for the lively discussion so far! While reading over the different comments, I have the knowledge of "player status" in the back of my head - endgame/casual, veteran/newer, etc. I'm pretty familiar with folks in these forums by now but others may not be and there's some newer/don't post as frequently faces showing up (which is great! More variety of voices hopefully leads to richer conversations!). Some of you already allude to it in your posts but would would it be useful if everyone included that info? It may help provide perspective to where they are coming from.

    As a side note, there's been a lot of conversations stemming from the AH portion but it's gone into off-topic territory. We do want to keep this thread centered on VIP as a whole, not just 1 element of it.

    you can probably also kinda tell by post count who the old timers are. I'm veteran endgame. xbox platform but I've played on all three with some degree of depth. with the plans to merge the forum it might be handy if you can do some sort of tag for platform.
    Not exactly, I have been playing far longer than I have been posting on the official forums and I often read more than I post. I even know many who were here far before I was who never even bother to visit these forums. I agree that there should be some kind of flair or icon to help differentiate between platforms though. Like you said in one of your earlier posts things are a bit different between platforms. Your viewpoint is unique and valuable because of that insight. As an after thought maybe there could even be a sort of CDP participation icon, title or flair for people who contribute to the CDP within the rules and in the desired format.

    That would be an interesting way to encourage participation. Colour me interested.



    Also how about adding a pve ranking system ? for example, players with the highest dps overal ( % based ) , best healers , best tank ( so most dmg taken or something ), it can be divided by class, or all together, it can also be reset every month, 3 months or 6 months. Just an idea, would be fun to see a standings board . ( just thinking out of the box)

    i have tons of ideas, but not enough space :astonished:

    Regards Galactic Underwear.

    Been a while. And while I do think a PvE ranking system would be an interesting addition to encourage competition for end-game players, it would have good chances of exacerbating the toxic behaviour from some players that is already fairly widespread, so I couldn't say that I support the harm its implementation could cause. However, having that PvE ranking applied to guilds and alliances with something of the sort of a "Guild hall of honour" as in an in-guild ranking for several things.. that might be quite interesting.



    http://chinesegarden101.blogspot.com/2011/07/three-in-morning-and-four-in-evening.html

    Long ago there was a man, who kept many monkeys. Everybody called him Mr. Monkey. He knew the monkeys' temperament very well, and the monkeys could also understand what he said. Mr. Monkey's monkeys are different from the other monkeys. They didn't like to eat bananas or peanuts. They liked to eat a special kind of fruits instead. Everyday they ate a lot of this fruit, which was very expensive. Mr. Monkey didn't have enough money to buy that many for the monkeys. He intended to give them less, but was afraid that the monkeys would get mad at him. So he thought of an idea.

    One morning, Mr. Monkey said to the monkeys: "From now on, I will give you three fruits in the morning and four in the evening. How is that?" Hearing this, the monkeys all said no, feeling he was giving too little. Upon this, Mr. Monkey smiled and said: "All right, I'll give you four in the morning, and three in the evening. Is it ok now?" All the monkeys were very happy to hear that and said ok. The idiom "Three in the morning and four in the evening" came from this story. However, the idiom carries a special meaning now: a person acts like this now, but acts like that later, very changeable.


    But, we are not monkeys.

    I like the story. Mind if I keep it?

    Ultimately, my suggestions are meant to make an improvement more agreeable to the general playerbase. Not as a way to disguise a decrease in the value of keys with a sleight of hand and a twist of the tongue. But as they say.. monkey sees, monkey do.

    Increasing the rarity of lockbox keys can be a good thing, it will give them room to increase the value of lockbox drops and increase the as we all know, abyssal chances. VIP is an important part of a new player's progress because of the additional income brought by lockboxes. We can't talk about halving the amount of keys handed out by VIP, while ignoring the nature of lockboxes.



    I most strongly disagree.

    I am happy to hear, I may quote you on that at some point.


    Chris you are getting a lot of emotion from people because the wording of the original post in this thread is very threatening and in the last year we've taken a lot of hits from the game.

    our trust, our morale is at a pretty low point for this game and we've had some serious lows. the examples in the op, read like: "this is what we're doing, lets talk about it and make it seem like you have some input..... but no matter what you say this is what is happening." and that's further highlighted by the fact that the lockbox thing was testing different drop rates. it looks very much like you're planning on dropping this on us and were in fact testing the waters for how angry we'd be.

    because this has happened before. usually they pose it in a way where it can be dialed back just a little bit so it feels like we've had some kind of "win" when we're still hamstered.

    This is exactly why what was written as the goal of my earlier feedback was "Keeping the developers from shooting their own collective footsie." If behind the scenes they are just planning on doing such a dangerous change, I would like to at least offer them less explosively destructive alternatives to spare a thought to.

    Which, I am in no manner or way saying is actually what they are doing, as said, I am not privy to the flavour of today's doughnuts in their break room. (Weren't doughnuts, but still.)

    Here’s a crazy idea, and I don’t want to read all the posts to get up to date,

    Whatever you all agree to/come up with - cash us all out on our existing VIP and relaunch it. I’d be good with it and it would be a good way to get out of the lockbox game - those days are coming to an end as it is.

    If they convert remaining VIP days to astral diamonds they might just go broke with me, and a few others I know of.

    And lastly, @nitocris83 ..You've forgotten me already?.. Sniff.

    Also @kreatyve, I thought it fairly obvious with the change of font aspect that he hadn't actually said that, but I understand your caution.
    The stars are falling, and the old gods silent as death, with the blood sworn to rip you down from the night sky, what cost will pose too high?
  • thefiresidecat
    thefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited January 2020

    What I would like to see is maybe get keys once a week, but with it being a chance to get between maybe 5-15 keys randomly. And once a lockbox is say over 2 years old, they would be able to be automatically opened without using keys. I am certain there are more people out there like me that have 1000s of different keys that they will never end up using.

    The rest of VIP should stay the same, other than maybe up the HP provided as that has been the same since the level cap was 60.


    the worst lockbox from 2 years ago is better than the current lockbox now. they still drop leg mounts, mops insignias and other important things. look at the shaundakaul lockbox. 3 years old now and totally worth opening. has one of the bis mounts in it. and there are thousands of them out there. I have an alt that is full of old lockboxes of all types in case something becomes flavor of the month again. maybe a cut rate key for older stuff.. that would be nice.. but I still think it probably would hurt the economy.
  • kenpachiofak
    kenpachiofak Member Posts: 9 Arc User
    This VIP CDP really in my option alienate the long time veteran player. Think about it, reducing the amount of keys by double the drop rate seems like a meaningless move but if you zoom out you will notice this is a calculated move that will reduce the amount of leg mounts in the game. To be forced to log in everyday to receive half the benefit is detrimental to the player. Especially with the way this game is flowing. To think of a market that is controlled by devs as to what’s in it seems like a terrible idea just look at the; zen market(old and outdated prices and items, & trade bar store and how absolutely abysmal and lack luster it is as a consolation prize to keys. In regards to VIP ranking, please leave it alone! To devalue the rank system that people have invested in would be a terrible move. I would hope a full zen refund if you were going to do such a pitiful move (for ranks vested). If anything, add more ranks There are plenty of things players desire that could be included with more VIP rank progression! Undercutting definitely depreciates items insanely fast and should be addressed in some fashion but I think there are better ways to alleviate this. Quite frankly speaking I love the way Wrune-scape (misspelled on purpose for fear of reprimand) handles this. What is in place there is, a system that connects the highest buyer with the willing seller (grand exchange). If you want to sell your items, you aren’t able to see competitors prices, this forces you to research the price of the item on both the buyer and the sellers behalf. Removing undercutting completely.
  • darthpotater
    darthpotater Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,162 Arc User
    Having read all the post, I think you have no way to change vip and keep people happy.

    At this point, I think your best bet is to create a new VIP service and maintain the actual one. New service could not have keys, have similar QoL things and other things like selectable rewards.
    Lescar PvE Wizard - Sir Garlic PvE Paladin
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  • thefiresidecat
    thefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,486 Arc User
    edited January 2020
    @tanais58crane

    your suggestion is a childish slight of hand that most people over the age of 6 would see right though and it would create an even worse outrage that they would think we were stupid enough to fall for it. if you are a kindergarden teacher the ploy might work in your classroom. if you have an actual room of monkeys it's a good ploy. but if you're dealing with adults who have been playing a game for years you might just insult your customers intelligence that way. it's a very good way to lose your customer base. I know if a vendor treated me like that I'd walk out the door. they way for them not to shoot themselves in their collective footsie is to not take away things the customer has already purchased and to actually listen to their player base and not do things that are wildly unpopular. working with your clientele to give them the experience they want is the way to keep them. not by conning them with slight of hands.
  • skatopsixos7
    skatopsixos7 Member Posts: 45 Arc User


    further more what happened to the MEANINGFUL cdp topic we were promised?

    This pretty much sums it up. VIP topic, seriously? Come on, we have more urgent issues with your game than VIP.

    But to answer - I am perfectly fine with current VIP. Lockboxes rng is HAMSTER and I don't trust you it will be better so leave it as HAMSTER as it is, thanks. Less keys? No thanks. Special store? No thanks. VIP ranks benefits for all regardless how long they have VIP? No thanks, it is at least something that makes people increase their ranks. You what, you want everyone to have same benefits? What's the purpose of VIP then? Bad idea. Increasing rAD refining? Yes please but for all and much more than 115k a day (and don't start on inflation blah blah, I sit on milions of rAD that I earned by playing the game that now the game is not allowing me to use, how smart is that).

    Overall... this CDP is pointless. It can serve only as a point checked on your list of CDPs to do. I am disappointed, to say the least, I expected something more important, like how to make developers actually work with players to make the game PLAYABLE AND BETTER instead of ignoring them. Well, so much for that.


    Agreed, i would think player retention, queue system, rewards etc are higher priority items.
    keys and drop rates are not important at this time. My initial reaction was , WHY? anyways.


  • tanais58crane
    tanais58crane Member Posts: 111 Arc User

    Having read all the post, I think you have no way to change vip and keep people happy.

    At this point, I think your best bet is to create a new VIP service and maintain the actual one. New service could not have keys, have similar QoL things and other things like selectable rewards.

    Their recent changes these last mods have clearly shown that they are not looking to make everyone happy, but they'll tackle on changes that'll carry some backlash if they are needed for the long-term well being of the game. Even if I would prefer if they stopped to worry if players still had fun.
    The stars are falling, and the old gods silent as death, with the blood sworn to rip you down from the night sky, what cost will pose too high?
  • cwhitesidedev#9752
    cwhitesidedev#9752 Member, Cryptic Developer Posts: 253 Cryptic Developer


    further more what happened to the MEANINGFUL cdp topic we were promised?

    This pretty much sums it up. VIP topic, seriously? Come on, we have more urgent issues with your game than VIP.

    But to answer - I am perfectly fine with current VIP. Lockboxes rng is HAMSTER and I don't trust you it will be better so leave it as HAMSTER as it is, thanks. Less keys? No thanks. Special store? No thanks. VIP ranks benefits for all regardless how long they have VIP? No thanks, it is at least something that makes people increase their ranks. You what, you want everyone to have same benefits? What's the purpose of VIP then? Bad idea. Increasing rAD refining? Yes please but for all and much more than 115k a day (and don't start on inflation blah blah, I sit on milions of rAD that I earned by playing the game that now the game is not allowing me to use, how smart is that).

    Overall... this CDP is pointless. It can serve only as a point checked on your list of CDPs to do. I am disappointed, to say the least, I expected something more important, like how to make developers actually work with players to make the game PLAYABLE AND BETTER instead of ignoring them. Well, so much for that.


    Agreed, i would think player retention, queue system, rewards etc are higher priority items.
    keys and drop rates are not important at this time. My initial reaction was , WHY? anyways.

    Hi Skat,

    We work on multiple areas at once, the Accessibility CDP covered a number of your areas there (which we are currently planning out) and Rewards and Progression will start in a week.

    Thanks

    Chris
  • sumplkrum#5169
    sumplkrum#5169 Member Posts: 34 Arc User
    edited January 2020


    I am sure there are plenty more reasons to be excited about VIP but for whatever reason I just haven't learnt to the other benefits of the system yet.

    Personally I would like an option: something like the choice of a daily key or a currency (coin used to buy fixed priced items from not just the current lock box but ones before it as well as cosmetics and other personality items). That way if there is something i really want I can work toward it and when i am in the mood i can buy keys for fun. This coupled with lowering of odds would be great for me that is.

    However it isn't about 'me' it is about the community and the world/experience moving forward. I just wanted to share my thoughts as a player. Personally I would like a 'Forge' as well where as a VIP member i could spend currency on backlog/roadmap items that I would like to see be moved up in priority I have other thoughts but this one will do for now.


    Full VIP currently gives:

    More XP earned. (Regular XP, Professions XP, and Glory in PVP)
    A bonus to Rough Astral Diamonds when earned. (each character)
    Extra rerolls for all characters.
    Daily Health potions for all characters.
    One daily Lockbox key.
    Discount on items in the Wonderous Bazaar store.
    No posting fee on Auction House. (10% tax on sales still applies)
    Less cost for rushing Companion Training. (I think companions also earn XP faster)
    Less cost for rushing professions.
    Immune to injuries.

    Abilities:
    Teleport to Moonstone Mask Inn.
    Sign post to fast Travel
    Summon Seal Vendor
    Summon Professions Vendor
    Summon Bank
    Summon Email box

    I believe players already get a hit point bonus for VIP. Don't remember.

    Notes:
    With the exception of Teleporting to Moonstone Mask, the summon abilities are hugely important and actually make the game enjoyable because you don't have to backtrack across zones. Access to Bank, Email, and vendors saves tons of time.

    Lockbox Keys are important because you can choose which lockbox to open.
    Many players just open the current lockbox, but that's actually not making the best use of them.

    1. The current lockbox has the newest items - but because so many players are opening it, the value of the items on the Auction House becomes depressed. Smart players actually buy the best items off the AH just before a lockbox is set to retire and prices are their lowest, hold onto them, and then sell them later when prices go back up.

    2. Old lockboxes offer more consistent drops. The reason is because they drop item packs. Item packs can be opened during 2X Enchant events and give you double gemstones, enchants and runes. You can also sell the packs on the AH for AD. ... Old lockboxes generally also give you more Trade Bars and Companion Tokens.

    3. Many times older Legendary Mounts are better than whatever the current one is. Some players fish for these super-valuable mounts by opening old lockboxes to find them. And Lockboxes are the only source for these items. ... You can buy them on the AH, but they all come from lockboxes.

    Therefore, the option to have keys is far more valuable and flexible than currency in a set store of items.

    Edit: Another thought - Having a static VIP store will probably depress the value of the items in that store. If you're going to put things like wards in there, you might be killing demand for Zen items. ... You'd have to be very careful about what is offered and how it's bound.

    For example: If I'm an end-gamer and all my upgrades are already done, I don't need wards any more - so I use my currency to buy them out of the VIP store, then sell them on the auction house. If enough people do this, prices will go down to the point that its cheaper to buy wards on AH rather than the Zen market.

    Conversely, if items in the VIP store are account-bound and can't be sold on the AH, then you'd have many players looking at it like "there's nothing good in the store. I want my keys back."

    The solution to the above would be to have account-bound Enchanted Keys in the VIP store. Therefore players can't resell VIP store items in the AH because they are account-bound, but they can buy keys - which they can then use on lockboxes - and the lockboxes add an avenue where the VIP store value is never seen as stale.
    Post edited by sumplkrum#5169 on
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