THE SAME PEOPLE THAT TOLD ME 6 MONTHS AGO THAT IT IS WRONG TO ASK FOR INCREASING THE AD REFINING CAP, NOW THEY APPROVE IT. The thread is archived somewhere.
The majority of posters agree with having VIP higher refining cap. It would not destroy the economy anymore? . Lets not make this game more P2W than already is.
Just introduce a subscription- Citizen of Neverwinter. Must have NO perks, just the title. I buy that. .
The game is not pay 2 win, i think people have poor knowledge of what pay too win is.
Pay to Win is a situation in gaming (usually MMOs or Massively Multiplayer Online games) where companies allow you to buy items or advantages with real money that cannot be obtained normally by playing the game. Which in nw is not the case. You can literaly farm zen by converting ad , thus making it obtainable.
You can get everything in the game with time and effort, EVERYTHING.
for example, i've been playing 6 years spent 20 bucks more or less and have all the beST gear/mounts and everything else. Granted they prefer someone who spends, and i am the prime example of players they don't want because i grind for everything instead of using real money..
The rate of free keys I feel like the keys give people a reason to get on daily, or gives them something to look forward to when they are able to get on. Some weeks I can only get on a couple of days, but it is nice to know I will be able to get some keys in addition to playing the game. I guess I would have to see exactly how the limited keys would work, because I wouldn't want to miss out on them due to irl responsibilities.
Alternates to keys I would be open to this personally. Would the trade-bar store be rolled into this? Also, the big question is, can we buy a legendary mount this way?
Ranks I am rank 12, so this would not affect me. It may lead to better retention if people get the full effect on the first month.
Current Benefits Which of the current benefits of VIP do you value and why? The signpost is the best thing ever. Other than that, the keys and re-roll tokens are nice as well as the HP and summoning bank etc. What would you like to see added in terms of benefits?
Auction House I just like not having to pay AD to list. I do not have enough opinion on this topic to be useful.
Here is an example of how VIP could look. Note: this is just an example but it is here to help provide insight and context into some of our thoughts:
VIP Example All of that sounds fine to me.
Feedback Format
I do not have a ton of alternate feedback on this topic. It sounds like you have some good ideas. My only addition, which may not be related-and if not my apologies- would be, We need more ways of getting our hands on Legendary Mounts. Possibly through VIP currency etc.
Feedback Overview: Overall changes to VIP After reading through everyone's comments it is clear that making big changes (i.e. removing/changing existing benefits) would no sit well with people that have pre-paid VIP for months and years into the future. This problem is due to the fact that you sold rank plus time together...
Please don't take away existing benefits. People will value each benefit differently, but we all purchased VIP for a reason and making a change or removing will suck a lot.
Feedback Goal If you want to add your list of new benefits to the system, then we can (mostly) agree that (some of) your suggestions would be great additions. What I would suggest is to add more ranks to VIP (above 12) to fit in your additions. You can bundle some of them together, of course.
Consider reordering which benefits are accrued at each rank. However, you must ensure that if a player has an existing benefit at their current rank, that the are advanced in rank to still receive that benefit during your restructure.
Feedback Functionality Unbundle time from rank. If I am Rank 12 VIP with 24 months of time, and you restructure the system to have 16 ranks of VIP available, then I am advanced in Rank to match my current benefits (having access to all ranks rewards under my new rank). In my example let's say I get bumped to Rank 13... Now I am Rank 13/16 with 24 months and if I want the next level of reward, then I can purchase Rank 14, but still only have 24 months of time. In the future I can choose to buy more VIP time (or not) and you get the benefit of adding more ranks later on the other side of the model.
Feedback Overview Regarding lockbox percentage increases The percentage chance of getting the orange items we are all after is SO LOW that there is no real meaningful change that you would reasonably make (you wont increase our odds to 1/90).
Feedback Functionality What if you played into your dice rolling model a little more and included a 'Streak bonus' for VIP members. Could be anything rewarding free value to the results. Say, if we open 10 lockboxes and receive the same pack twice or three times in a row, we get increased odds at something, or a free key, or heavily increased odds of getting an orange result in our next open (say 2%).
Risks & Concerns Ultimately, any change to the lockbox odds will haev a heavy effect on the economy.
Here is an example of a really useful post (Thanks franklin). There are many more in this CDP and in the accessibility CDP.
There is no hyperbole, the poster is thinking broadly (which is exactly right for this stage of the CDP), Franklin has taken the time to read previous post and there is no emotion.
I would appreciate it if we can get back to the topic at hand for which we have had many great posts already.
Thanks
Chris
Chris you are getting a lot of emotion from people because the wording of the original post in this thread is very threatening and in the last year we've taken a lot of hits from the game.
our trust, our morale is at a pretty low point for this game and we've had some serious lows. the examples in the op, read like: "this is what we're doing, lets talk about it and make it seem like you have some input..... but no matter what you say this is what is happening." and that's further highlighted by the fact that the lockbox thing was testing different drop rates. it looks very much like you're planning on dropping this on us and were in fact testing the waters for how angry we'd be.
because this has happened before. usually they pose it in a way where it can be dialed back just a little bit so it feels like we've had some kind of "win" when we're still hamstered. And not only was this an emotionally laden topic for the player base but we were prepared for something else. so it feels like a low blow. The feedback you've seen from a few of us on the wording in the op is real. it isn't phrased in a way where any kind of structured feedback makes sense. it appears to be a proposal, not an open ended quest for ideas. it's do you want a b or c.
a way to get most of us on the more open minded side of the equation is
how do you see vip going forward. GO!
not, so what do you think of having less keys and a oh boy 3x chance at things in lockboxes (like we don't know the odds already.) and nerf this and nerf that and how about some nerfball soup too?
Yep. So much Yep. I agree 100%. I have the feeling we are being told to shut up and color in a very passive way. It doesn't really work that way though does it? Fool me once and all that. I'm still waiting for answers to my questions, but I think we both made our point.
Right now, VIP is the LAST thing you need to worry about.
Allow me a moment of your time with this.
The SOLE reason I have VIP is the simple fact I want to support the game and that I'm lazy. I don't want to run across Dwarven Valley when I'm done with IWD, I don't want to have to run to the bank, I don't want to run to a vendor. I want invoke wherever I'm at and be done with it. The rest, for the most part, are "nothing" rewards.
Moonstone Mask? I've never once been there. It's useless to me and serves no purpose, especially since I can summon a bank, mailbox, teleporter, vendor anywhere.
VIP Key? It's HAMSTER. In order for it to be "worth" it's "value", I need at least 93500 in AD value. You're lucky to get even a third of that, even worse with the new lockbox mechanics. I've never once, after opening over a thousand lockboxes hit the jackpot. Not one single meta-tier item. Nope. I mostly get junk and that's expected, 'cos lockboxes are based off Casinos. The bank always wins. 4 Black Opals? That's worth 12k AD. You DEVALUED them when you added the 70-80 profession jobs and sorry, I'm not wasting gold to make over-priced Blood Rubies. I have STACKS of RP.
I actually used a key the other day, after the SNAFU on Mod 18's release (which should have NEVER have happened, by the way.) I wanted to see if anything improved.
I got 4 Black Opals, A rank 9 Dread and a Portal of Belial. That was barely 50k worth of AD and that's IF I could sell it. You know what the WORST part was?
You gave me an junk Artifact from 6 YEARS AGO and yet, didn't you just nerf an artifact set from 2 years ago, as you decided it reached it's end of life? So some HAMSTER Artifact that's 6 years old has more value than a set from 2?
I open keys once a month and when I do, I'm not excited. It's more, "Gee, how much HAMSTER am I going to get that's going to take up bag space this time?" Typically I just give the HAMSTER away to new players. I don't need more junk items, clogging up my bag space, personal bank, shared bank and guild bank.
Re-roll Tokens? Again, useless to me. I don't run dungeons anymore, due to the fact that a lot of the player base I can't stand from elitism and the fact that the dungeons I AM geared to run, drop HAMSTER rewards. If I did run a dungeon, the RNG and rewards are so lackluster, I'll probably end up with worse, by using Re-roll Tokens.
5 Potions a day? Again, a junk item. I have stacks of them and thanks to them being bound, they're only worth Gold. I make a whopping 64 gold month getting that junk out of my inventory. I can make that in 3 days, doing professions. Back when we had ID scrolls, I could make 225 Gold off the Scrolls I got monthy, by just ID'ing Blues. Now, the only Blues we seem to find are "Gaiters of the Miser Developer", which are only worth, again, useless RP.
15% off Astral Diamond Store? Pssh. The only thing to me, worth buying were the MoP R4s and only when the AD store was on sale. In fact, the LAST time I bought 3 stacks, spending 4.5 million AD, you screwed me, 'cos it was right before Mod 16 and I upgraded ALL of my 10 toons triple-stat enchants to a minimum of 10, plus a few weapon enchants. Most of these are now not even worth the value of the MoP R4s I invested in them, at their discount value of 60%, 'cos of the stupid design changes from Mod16 that NOBODY wanted.
There is *NOTHING* else of value in the Astral Diamond Store. I should be able to buy account bound Pres Wards there. I should be able to buy account bound Coals there. In fact, EVERYONE should.
Tarmalune Store? What's worth buying there, except for a deepcrow hatchling, some scrolls of life and stones of health? It takes approximately 160 keys to get enough Tarmalune Bars to purchase a hatchling. (I'm taking your pathetically abysmal RNG into account, as the "jackpots" are again based off casinos.) Sure you might make some AD off scrolls and stones of health, but as it's been pointed out, the Billionaires will scoop them up to control the AH and the market or you'll have to sell them at such a low price, it's not really worth it.
To add insult to injury, you've already stated that the Tarmalune Store won't be updated until Mod 19 which won't come until the END of the year.
Ad nauseam......
* * *
Look, the point I'm trying to make is it's fairly obvious you need some influx of capital from Neverwinter. I appreciate what you're trying to do, but understand, most of us, myself included, are jaded by all the BS that has taken place for YEARS. I have NO intentions of buying VIP in November, when mine runs out, unless Neverwinter does a complete 180 in regards to pricing, content, bug fixing, et al.
Your priority needs to be restructuring the AD Store, Tarmalune Store, the Zen Store and provide us with something of VALUE for our money, in addition to new, creative content that is bug free and engaging.
[EDIT] - Oh wow. I just found out they pulled the Legendary Insignia Pack from the Mount Section of the Zen Store. No more 33% off. Chris, this is exactly WHY you're not making money on the Zen store. *shakes head*
Feedback Overview: Overall changes to VIP "After reading through everyone's comments it is clear that making big changes (i.e. removing/changing existing benefits) would no sit well with people that have pre-paid VIP for months and years into the future. This problem is due to the fact that you sold rank plus time together...
Please don't take away existing benefits. People will value each benefit differently, but we all purchased VIP for a reason and making a change or removing will suck a lot."
I think @franklin223 said this perfectly. And i completely agree. I'm sure others would as well.
Feedback Goal
Discuss options to improve VIP without devaluing what players have already purchased or to "turn off" new players/players whose VIP is about to expire from wanting to purchase it. Feedback Functionality
I would strongly recommend not increasing the level of VIP beyond 12 and add in a few benefits (which you were considering) around rank 8 to rank 11 and not reducing the level of rank either. I would also recommend a small re-shuffling of certain QoL/benefits for certain ranks to make VIP appear more "worthwhile" to invest in. (Yes this is an investment. Both money and time)
As it currently stands, it costs 12K Zen to get to rank 12. (less with coupons, sales, etc... but close enough) Each rank offers unique benefits and QoL perks. And, as you have already read, all of which are used and valued depending on the player. The main reason you don't want to go above rank 12 (ie. rank 16, 18, 20 whatever it may be) is that new players will look at that and say "HAMSTER THAT" it would be far too expensive at first sight. It would be a huge "turn off" for newer players. They would do some quick mental math and conclude that it would be far too expensive/time consuming to achieve that.
As for not reducing the levels of VIP ranks. You need an incentive for players to pay more money and to play over a longer period of time, That is where the Ranks of VIP comes in. Some players will look at VIP and see "NO INJURIES" and say I want that and buy several ranks of VIP to get that. Congrats you just locked them in for several months now (not always but often enough). Now that they are locked in for the next few months, they might decide "Hey I want some press wards and an epic mount for all my characters". Congrats, you made more money. BUT if you put everything to Rank 1 and only have the one rank of VIP, well you only have 30 days till its up and then they might say " This game is MEH, time to play ESO since nothing is keeping me here now". There is a video about stuff like this. I think it was called "lets go whale hunting" can't remember but now I'm getting off topic. So yes I think 12 Ranks is a good number (At most you could reduce it to 10 but I still think 12 is better. Not too high and not too low).
As for the re-shuffling. You need to sweeten the deal with Rank 1. You get some nice things at rank 1 right now with a re-roll token, an enchanted key, 10% xp, professions, and stuff. But you really need to sell it to people. When new people look at it they see two things stand out. Then increase to XP for faster leveling and the enchanted key. They most likely don't understand about the bonus to AD (very few ways to get AD early on) or the re-roll token yet (none of the dungeons they've been running has the re-roll option yet). So here is my idea for what Rank 1 VIP should be to entice players to buy it.
At level 30, from the leveling box, you should get 7 days of free VIP. Give them a taste and they will want more...
Rank 1: -10% bonus to RAD/XP/Glory/Profession XP/Gold gain. (Most of this is the same from what we have now except gold. Gold is important early on to swap out enchantments due to leveling gear always changing)
-10% off the cost to rush training of companions and to refill moral at the workshop. (most people don't remember to send their companion off for training before they log off for the night. As for professions, this might give them a little boost to spend some AD to up their workshop)
-10% reduction cost of removing enchantments from items (goes back to the first perk with the gold increase)
-5% off all items in the Zen store. Does not stack with coupons or flash sales (store could use an update. and talk to us/let us know before you change things please)(VIP=VERY IMPORTANT PERSON. You need to make them feel special. Stores give discounts for being members. The same should be here. Entice them)
-5% off the cost to re-roll a chest at the end of a dungeon/skirmish/trial (This goes with the whole 7 days of free VIP to entice players to want to keep it and even upgrade it. By the end of 7 days, they should be running the lower end epic dungeons)
-Summon the professions vendor OR the signpost for quick travel (one or the other at this rank) (this should be one of the first things to be unlocked for new players to persuade them to work on professions and allows them to sell things. OR. The signpost is a nice incentive to push a player to try it out and once they lose it (And I feel this every time I go to the preview sever) they will want it back)
-Able to teleport straight to the workshop (like the moonstone mask. not the world map. Push the professions on them to burn gold and AD. and please update the professions)
-Access to the Moonstone Mask VIP area (not sure if many still use this but it is VIP. And VIP=VERY IMPORTANT PERSON)
-5 VIP Potions of health per character. Heals the player for 50% of max HP. (The healing potions during leveling and even at end game do like 30-40% even with the boons on many characters, usually less. The leveling ones are even worse)
-Every day receive 1) 1 Re-roll token per character (These two are obvious) 2) 1 VIP chest key per Account
Sweeten the deal at Rank 1 and give them 7 days of FREE. Let them taste it and many of them will want more. The other ranks can be sweetened as well to entice a player to want more of something like no injuries and % bonus campaign currency. So by rank 12 they could have a nice discount on removing enchantments, reduce the cost to re-roll chests by like 20% or other things you may wish to add. (I really liked the idea about an increase to campaign currency. I can't remember who said it in the thread. Players old and new would want that!!!)
Now with all that being said, MAKE SURE YOU DON'T REMOVE ANYTHING SOMEONE ALREADY PAID MONEY FOR (ie move the ability to summon the mailbox from Rank 6 to Rank 8 or remove something altogether) If they have it, let people keep it.
Risks & Concerns
Two things. One: DON'T REMOVE ANYTHING SOMEONE ALREADY PAID MONEY FOR. If anything is removed from what someone has purchased you will generate even more bad blood. Two: Balance. You want to entice people to buy VIP for the QoL/benefits but not make it look like its full on Pay to Win. Tough cookie to crack. And more and more gamers are getting wiser about these practices.
I was really hoping that this subject would come up in a CDP, but not this soon. I strongly recommend putting this on the back burner and tackling another subject first like rewards. Main reason why is that several aspects of VIP should have there own CDP first to lay the ground work for it like lootboxes (rewards), the AH, etc...
Remember everyone, this is just ideas being tossed about, and my quick opinion on it. Some will agree, others (probably many judging by what I've said) will definitely not agree. So now I challenge each of you whom agree, or disagree to tell me their ideas. (I've read everything in this thread up to this point) I want to see what we can come up with!! And not just players. I want to hear the ideas from the NW team. All of them if possible. Big and small. Artist to coders. You say you want to work together then lets do it. Throw ideas back a forth till something sticks!!!!
Feedback Overview: Overall changes to VIP After reading through everyone's comments it is clear that making big changes (i.e. removing/changing existing benefits) would no sit well with people that have pre-paid VIP for months and years into the future. This problem is due to the fact that you sold rank plus time together...
Please don't take away existing benefits. People will value each benefit differently, but we all purchased VIP for a reason and making a change or removing will suck a lot.
Feedback Goal If you want to add your list of new benefits to the system, then we can (mostly) agree that (some of) your suggestions would be great additions. What I would suggest is to add more ranks to VIP (above 12) to fit in your additions. You can bundle some of them together, of course.
Consider reordering which benefits are accrued at each rank. However, you must ensure that if a player has an existing benefit at their current rank, that the are advanced in rank to still receive that benefit during your restructure.
Feedback Functionality Unbundle time from rank. If I am Rank 12 VIP with 24 months of time, and you restructure the system to have 16 ranks of VIP available, then I am advanced in Rank to match my current benefits (having access to all ranks rewards under my new rank). In my example let's say I get bumped to Rank 13... Now I am Rank 13/16 with 24 months and if I want the next level of reward, then I can purchase Rank 14, but still only have 24 months of time. In the future I can choose to buy more VIP time (or not) and you get the benefit of adding more ranks later on the other side of the model.
Feedback Overview Regarding lockbox percentage increases The percentage chance of getting the orange items we are all after is SO LOW that there is no real meaningful change that you would reasonably make (you wont increase our odds to 1/90).
Feedback Functionality What if you played into your dice rolling model a little more and included a 'Streak bonus' for VIP members. Could be anything rewarding free value to the results. Say, if we open 10 lockboxes and receive the same pack twice or three times in a row, we get increased odds at something, or a free key, or heavily increased odds of getting an orange result in our next open (say 2%).
Risks & Concerns Ultimately, any change to the lockbox odds will haev a heavy effect on the economy.
Here is an example of a really useful post (Thanks franklin). There are many more in this CDP and in the accessibility CDP.
There is no hyperbole, the poster is thinking broadly (which is exactly right for this stage of the CDP), Franklin has taken the time to read previous post and there is no emotion.
I would appreciate it if we can get back to the topic at hand for which we have had many great posts already.
Thanks
Chris
I think this is a pretty unfair post. It implies that the majority of the responses are from people who "have not read the previous post".
We are all people, we all have emotions and as others have stated, the original topic was not worded well. It started out with questions on how we would feel about certain things. The problem was is everything that was listed was a negative. it all involved taking something away from us that we currently have. It was not until you got further down into your "example" that additions were listed. These were mostly good ideas. Nothing overly powerful but nice little QOL things.
Regardless i went back and looked at the original post again and noticed a couple things. specifically the first two points
VIP Example Instead of directly getting reroll tokens, VIP would be given a VIP currency and would have a store. The contents of this store would adjust over time but would likely start with things such as Preservation Wards, Enchanting Stones, Companion Upgrade Tokens, and yes Reroll Tokens.
10-15 Lockbox Keys per month – These would now be in the new VIP store and players could go all in on keys only to max out at 15, or could opt for fewer keys and more of the other rewards which gives players more flexibility in what VIP offers them.
I know this is an example and but this is exactly what people are worried about. a Bait and Switch. Just in these two points you have two examples of indicating a bait and switch. First you have the VIP store and currency. you specifically state it will start with good things but the contents will change. How long will we be able to get wards before it is decided that we have had enough and they disappear? Secondly 10-15 lockboxes per month we can go all in to get 15 keys. meaning we spend all of our currency for 1/2 or 1/3 of what we were previously getting. This is a straight devaluation of what we have, regardless if lockbox rates are increased.
Even the predecessor to this post, this lockbox response thread, was ended with a tiny bait and switch. you used the bug with the lockbox to introduce this CDP, instead of what people were expecting, as if they are dependent on each other. This is completely false. Obviously i dont have numbers, but i would expect that the amount of Lockboxes opened via the daily free VIP key would pale in comparison to the amount opened from regularly purchased keys. I am not even sure if you have a way to differentiate between the two. Regardless the lockbox bug has at best has a tangential association to VIP and is not a definitive issue concerning it.
To me it doesn't look like much of anything has changed. we have been told some big landscape type goals but no real information behind them at this point. Yes I do realize that a lot cannot be said at various times but it feels like we are still getting the run around and not having truthful answers. I dont know you and what your history is, but a lot of the forum population was pretty happy that you came on board, so you have some leeway and trust with the community. You also do seem to much more active on the forums than previous staff so that is a good thing. I fear posts like this one which are viewed to most as a negative change are quickly going to eat away at that leeway that trust.
Ok.. my take on this. We'll get to VIP in the end.
I feel this CDP is not primarily about VIP.
The signs are obvious that the NW product is struggling financially: * A big fall in users as documented by the Steam charts * The ZAX conversion rate has fallen from 1M Zen/day to 0.5M Zen/day - and this probably ties fairly directly into Cryptic's income from Zen * A flood of never-before-seen offerings from Cryptic trying to get people to spend more on game * This discussion also contributes to that slightly-desperate-for-income picture
I feel this CDP is about 'How can we change the VIP to increase our total income'.
A business must make money, or it will go away. So being focused on the income is completely OK and necessary, I just wish more thought was given to it before it got this far. It is in the interest of all the players that Cryptic got a good and solid income from the game or there will be a reduced game or no game at all.
Income = Arpu * number of users Arpu = Accumulated Revenue Per User, how much you earn per user(the term might be unknown to some)
The main reason I see for this CDP is that any attempt to increase the arpu could backlash in a reduction in the number of users. That is a very valid concern.
The word trust has been mentioned several times in this thread. Trust means that the customer is anticipating that the company does not do anything that is contrary to their interests. Trust is hard to build and very easy to lose. If the customers lose trust in the company the number of users is likely to fall because people leave, and the arpu is likely to fall since people dare not invest in a company that can change things around at any moment.
So keeping the trust of the customers actually is very important to keep the income up. Mod 16 for instance represented a massive trust loss for Cryptic since it took away a lot of goodies that people had worked hard for. Also a number of fairly bland expansions have lost customer trust in the ability to progress the game. And (I am sorry) discussions like this reduces trust in the continued existence of the game.
Lets also talk about the whip and the carrot. Whip = when you force people to buy something to have a good play experience Carrot = When people see that not having something will not have a big negative effect, but they still desire it to improve their play experience. They purchase something out of joy.
Neverwinter currently is fairly unique in that the business model is almost entirely based on the carrot. Most other MMORPGs to some extent use the whip by denying access to content unless you pay. Changing that model to any noticeable extent could have very unforeseen effects on both arpu and player numbers. Be careful.
In general, trying too hard to increase the arpu is dangerous, as it too easily leads to reduced player numbers far outweighing the increased arpu. As someone posted earlier in this thread: We (the players) are not stupid.
Specific comments on VIP: * Taking away anything in the product will lead to loss of trust and unhappiness * Trying to increase key sales by reducing key drops in VIP will lead to loss of trust and unhappiness Keys are an important part of VIP not just because the chance of a legendary drop, but selling the smaller lockbox drops let you recover some of the expenses of VIP. Trying to argue that the Legendary droprate remains constant will not hit home as that really is not the main point of the keys. * As long as the total benefits from VIP remains constant, getting them from a store adds flexibility and is positive * Giving everyone rank 12 from first VIP buy is positive - it could however lead to some loss in VIP sales as people have no incentive to buy more VIP, so I am not sure if the income effect of this would be positive.
My feeling is that VIP is in a pretty good spot at the moment and I don't really see any need for major changes to it, in particular changes motivated in increased income. Development time probably could be better spent elsewhere. Be very careful.
Serious suggestion: Let next CDP be 'What would you like added to the game that you would buy for Zen?' Give the players a chance at helping you increase the arpu without a player number backlash.
1. Instead of increasing the chance of a leg, you should make other things in the lockbox more attractive. More high quality items that are otherwise rare. Unfortunately there are many old items (this also applies to the tarmalune) 2. Please do not remove the free cost in the AH. The market is on the move and you have to react. It is not very attractive to offer items. Buyers also benefit from it. 3. VIP Market sounds good :-) There should be special worthwhile items. VIP must be something special, compared to no vip. 4. An additional buff that you can choose from a selection
We currently grant a key a day, which is 30 a month. We want to preserve the value of VIP, so if lockbox odds are improved by 2x or even 3x, how would you view altering the rate of free keys to keep a similar value?
In order to give a measured reply to this, you would need to elaborate on how much keys will cost in the Zen market, and whether or not they too will effectively double in cost to "balance" any increase in odds. If Keys are going to remain the same price in the Zen market, then this would clearly devalue the keys from VIP rather than achieve any sense of perceived "balance". If Keys will double in their Zen price then its absolutely a fair exchange to halve the number provided by VIP assuming VIP remains the same price.
How would you feel about getting a currency with VIP that allowed you to get items other than keys from your daily login? Would you choose to get wards, enchanting stones, or other valuable items instead of keys if you had that option?
Given how many "Stores" currently exist within the game, and that most are currently underwhelming to say the least...
(*Adopts Mr Plinkett voice for a moment* Ardent Favour, Celestial Synergy, Tarmalune Trade Bar Merchant, out of date professions vendors, Wondrous Bazaar, every campaign zone, out of date armour merchant, Sybella, extra stores in campaign zones for different currencies, every event, most events' extra store for second and third tier currencies, out of date jewelry merchant, zones from pre L60 content with stores for currencies people forgot they got, out of date seal vendors, Neverember's Incentives guy, other seal vendor across the way, out of date weapon merchant, potions guy, out of date "implements" guy... I'm not even going to get into all the out of date HAMSTER in the Stronghold...)
...I would advocate that there are enough stores that need reinvigorating before adding another that will be stuffed with goods that will be 75% out of date a year after inception and will sit there while ONE item or maybe two gets purchased with whatever currency you invent for it.
Please... no new (especially permanent) stores for new invented currencies till you sort out the mess of old ones
How would you feel about the removal of ranks on VIP, granting full benefits of VIP 12 while active? What do you value about ranks?
How would I feel about this? Utterly ambivalent. I value nothing about the ranks per se as I have had Rank 12 since about.. 7 or 8 months into playing. It all blends into one at that point. I would certainly not resent any new player gaining all VIP benefits when first buying in, if that is the real question being asked here, since anything that simple, which might improve player retention, would be something I am in favour of.
Which of the current benefits of VIP do you value and why?
Travel Post, Daily Key, Rerolls, Post Box, Banking Portal, Bonus AD, Invocation. Personally, I think you can get rid of the Hit Points and avoid anything that gives characters rather than players an edge. For me VIP should be about Player QoL only and not impact on characters' combat stats at all. But that's just my opinion and I doubt it's shared by many.
What would you like to see added in terms of benefits?
I'm genuinely fine as is. Though, for me, you could get rid of Moonstone Mask, and unless you are going to keep the Seal Vendor and Professions Trader up to date you might as well sack them off too as they are superfluous.
I'm not one of those players who will go mental if you remove the Seal Vendor and start saying stuff like "That was the only reason I used VIP... compensate me with 10'000 ZEN and a free Legendary Mount right now!!!" I'm happy if you just clear out the useless HAMSTER or, even better, make it work properly. I don't need or want more useless HAMSTER in it's place.
Having one group able to list an item, de-list, and re-list again at no cost/penalty to undercut is not healthy for the Auction House and we’d like that to be a better experience for everyone. What are your thoughts in regard to this statement?
It IS wrong to have a two tier system. Remove this perk from VIP.
Maybe try this instead. Remove the cost to post from the Auction House entirely and have it run on commission only. BUT... implement a charge to withdraw items early which amounts to the same cost as the existing posting charge. If you can't afford to withdraw it, it stays where it is. If the goods don't sell, they are returned free of charge. That way newer people without VIP can post that sexy "lucky drop" artifact they found that's going for 500'000 AD without having to stump up a load of up front fees. The more simple devices you can implement to narrow the gap between new, AD poor, players and established "wealthier" players the better the chances of player retention.
Hello, I am more and more astonished to see that by now the arc has forgotten that there are players like me who have been here since day one, I say this because every change that you are making incentives and improves the situation only for new players .... but do you think that to bring the vip to 12 was a challenge for us? what are you going to do now? raise grades? we are hitting bottom, we high players too put some more degrees in the vip and suitable rewards based on the quality of the character, the idea of the vip shop is not bad so maybe to give you a choice but don't forget us people who spent a lot of money and people who have been here for a long time and have lived and sweated what they have now, forgive my english I used google translator a greeting to all of you
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited January 2020
Feedback Overview: Key Changes
My thoughts on the key changes, keeping in mind that regardless of what change you make it likely does not impact my gameplay so I am pretty much impartial with regards to what you do to keys.
Feedback Goal
Restructure the key change proposal so that if changes were made to keys to lessen the economic impact and increase the chances that any changes to keys are successful.
Feedback Functionality
Instead of changing the odds on the lockboxes, I would add a different key to VIP, a "VIP Enchanted Key" which has a higher drop rate than ordinary keys and leave the drop rate of ordinary keys alone. The reason for this is, because this is what I believe would happen if you implemented the key change as proposed.
The value of keys in general would go up, so more people would buy keys who are not getting them from VIP.
Whilst on average the amount of VIP keys would remain the same, the value from the lockbox keys would go up a lot.
The increased supply from ordinary keys, would cause the value of items on the auction house to decline significantly. This is a result of supply vs demand.
The value of the VIP goes down, due to the increase of the normal key.
Riots ensue.
The problem is that changes to VIP keys and regular keys are currently not independent and so if you make any changes at all to keys, the results will impact both. Reducing the number of keys provided by VIP will currently always be a nerf to VIP, because relative to non VIP keys, you are getting less bang for your buck from VIP. If you wanted this key to also be purchasable outside of VIP, you could sell it independently for a higher price.
Risks & Concerns
Players will still see this as a nerf, even if its functionally the same.
You are making a change to a system that currently works reasonably well, for no discernible gain. Pretty much anyone who spends zen, also has VIP because it is 1 of the first things you would buy.
If this is a way to increase VIP, then I will cancel my VIP. There aren't really any improvements that will justify me paying more for this game, I will just subscribe to another game. I can't afford to pay an increased price.
Ranks, no ranks, it doesn't really bother me too much. From the rank rewards, I think the mailbox and the signpost are the only things I use.
I would rather keys go up to two a day, rather than increasing odds. Because, lets be honest. If legendary mount is 0.0000001% odds currently, doubling this is an increase, but still so remote that it will probably not be worth it, and then we will have had keys halved as well, so nothing changes. Keep the odds the same, but double the keys. Most of the time I get refine items anyway, so you wouldn't be losing money as such.
I would like to see coal wards, pres wards etc being given out in lockboxes, rather than gems.
I love the game but it increasingly feels like you are trying to get as much money as you can, as quickly as you can. I appreciate the game is free, so it's how you make your money. But it is now feeling more lie a cash grab than a game, and you're losing players, fast. In the last six months I have noticed how few people there are in Stardock, Yawing Portal and PE. It's heart breaking. I have made some great friends through the game, but they are leaving the game, as they feel developers don't care about the players, just what money they can get.
In the first phase of this CDP we would like you to think and comment about these questions:
The rate of free keys
We currently grant a key a day, which is 30 a month. We want to preserve the value of VIP, so if lockbox odds are improved by 2x or even 3x, how would you view altering the rate of free keys to keep a similar value?
Alternates to keys
How would you feel about getting a currency with VIP that allowed you to get items other than keys from your daily login? Would you choose to get wards, enchanting stones, or other valuable items instead of keys if you had that option?
Ranks
How would you feel about the removal of ranks on VIP, granting full benefits of VIP 12 while active? What do you value about ranks?
Current Benefits
Which of the current benefits of VIP do you value and why?
New Benefits
What would you like to see added in terms of benefits?
Auction House
Having one group able to list an item, de-list, and re-list again at no cost/penalty to undercut is not healthy for the Auction House and we’d like that to be a better experience for everyone. What are your thoughts in regard to this statement?
Here is an example of how VIP could look. Note: this is just an example but it is here to help provide insight and context into some of our thoughts:
VIP Example
Instead of directly getting reroll tokens, VIP would be given a VIP currency and would have a store. The contents of this store would adjust over time but would likely start with things such as Preservation Wards, Enchanting Stones, Companion Upgrade Tokens, and yes Reroll Tokens.
10-15 Lockbox Keys per month – These would now be in the new VIP store and players could go all in on keys only to max out at 15, or could opt for fewer keys and more of the other rewards which gives players more flexibility in what VIP offers them.
Increased odd chances on items in Lockboxes moving forward.
A higher cap on refined AD per day for VIP, 15% more for a cap of 115,000
Ability for VIP to change loadouts away from campfires
Increased health gain from VIP – grants every member of your group 1% of their base HP as additional Max HP. Maximum 5% with a full group of VIP.
Removal of VIP ranks meaning that anyone who purchases VIP gets full benefits immediately.
Key and Lockboxes: the real issue with Keys is that they are usually a not so good investment, Most of the stuff is really bad and normally you get less steam from lockboxes than you would get by buying directly what you need from the ZEN store. Then once in blue moon you get a really valuable item (legendary mounts), if you're lucky. Doubly or tripling the odds won't help much as the only valuable items will stay extremely rare anyway.
When preservation and coalescent wards were in the Tarmalune Shop then keys kept value anyway as you could buy the wards with the Tarmalune. Add wards back to the Tarmalune store and suddendly VIP and Keys will increase their value. Put enchanting stones there and it will be even better. I think that simply restructuring the Tarmalune bars shop and the Tarmalune bars drop rates from lockboxes would be enough to handle this issue, no need to create a new currency and store.
Agree with the removal of ranks and would love the ability to change loadouts away from campfires.
Le-Shan: HR level 80 (main)
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
Another thing I'd like to address is the function of the keys for vip users. If we had less many of us would not buy more. They are something we look forward to as a small bright point in our day. I hold no expectations I'll get a mount from these. For me it's all about getting small functional drops that make my life better and the occasional nicer than normal drop that is like, sweet.. but if these keys were halved would I buy more? Absolutely not. getting one key a day does not fill the binge feature that key poppers relish. this is moderation, not the satisfying pull tab binge.
this gives us a reason to log in every day. people that buy keys, buy keys regardless of vip. vip is not enough for their needs. Increasing the odds won't change this. if there was a slightly higher chance of getting a lego mount it changes nothing other than maybe make it cheaper to trade/buy on the ah. in other words, it's not eating your key sales. not at all. the reason key sales have gone down is because of the new lockboxes. not because of vip. not because of drop rate The overall value of lockboxes has diminished with the new style boxes and the old style boxes value have also diminished because of changes in the market. If you want higher key sales, changes NEED to be made to the lock boxes to make them more relevant and it has nothing to do with the lego mount odds.it has to do with the meat and potatoes of the boxes.
Rn the new boxes on average give about 6k back to you in enchantments/refining stones. That's it. Taking refining stones and enchantments out of the new style boxes would go along way towards making them relevant. The old style boxes are losing value because a couple of the things that used to be more relevant aren't. but they're still way better than the modern boxes. basically the meat and potatoes of boxes needs to have on average near the price of opening the box for people to spend money on it. most aren't completely idiotic who open these, they aren't like I don't care that I get nothing from it if I don't get mount.. They hope for a mount yes, but they are counting on the meat and potatoes to sustain them. if the meat and potatoes cannot sustain they stop buying.
I know I, and probably others are more than happen to help with monetization of the game, but please do be transparent about it. we aren't monkeys.
> @thefabricant said: > > > * Players will still see this as a nerf, even if its functionally the same. > > * You are making a change to a system that currently works reasonably well, for no discernible gain. Pretty much anyone who spends zen, also has VIP because it is 1 of the first things you would buy.
This. VIP is the ONLY thing I advertise to newer players. I tell them to play the game and if they can, get VIP. I do usually explain how the ZAX works, but many just want to have a good time and buy a month here or there... I do advertise it because it is worth it, and because you can reasonably buy it either with your time (and here it is mostly selling of lockbox-drops and putting that AD back in ZAX) or your money. When I miscalculated or spent the lockbox AD on something else, I have also bought VIP with real money before. Especially in times where I have an hour max to play and I don't just wanna sit in my workshops and in AH all hour long I do this... And I think many that do not make a lot of side AD ingame do that too. I wouldn't buy it anymore if I had to do that every month.
Players will still see this as a nerf, even if its functionally the same.
You are making a change to a system that currently works reasonably well, for no discernible gain. Pretty much anyone who spends zen, also has VIP because it is 1 of the first things you would buy.
yup, exactly. and I also encourage all new players to get vip whilst extolling it's virtues, (Which are many) it seems like time would be MUCH better spent elsewhere in the game. there are a lot of things that need a lot of work desperately. fixing things that aren't broken ends up just adding more bugs to the game as a general rule.
Feedback quality life A vendor that hallow us switch encantment ...they will be bta ok but as a vip we need to be treated as a vip 1 wep and1 def enc switch + 5 r15 exchange montly.we cant keep push up think every time yu change meta cmon we are vip no?
Ah feedback Ah without listening tax and possibility to listen 40 item faster 1by1.. if yu want let us pay a tax yu hv to guarante a cashbk for us example
i put a r15 that ah say wort 399k i put at 450k i pay 45k tax for listen. if i no sell ah offer a choice ah will buy it for the 85% value (based on true value they say 399k)and we give back to yu the 45k yu paied for listen or item back with ad losed for tax. from game this make 2 think .... Ppl can clean inventory and item dont be redunant cuz yu delete so if ppl want to buy have to buy be4 ah make his offert to the player...i hope is understandable my eng not good.plus yur ah decide the price who ppl have to respect without abuse.
feedback for key if yu really want to half us key we hv to hv something back... Store where we have a daily logon choice selection summonable from interface or auto pop at login... Ex daily reward(all think bta nothing resellable) token pet x1, ad rougue box 20k and similiar think that wort 20kto 35k a weekly login reward 25pward bound or similiar value item montly vip reward coal bta or a choice from a purple pet(6pet choice if 6 month will be pet reset) or a purple mount ... (The store have to be interest not like vault of pity damn)plus 1key with improvment drop rare as yu say every 48hour. (For give an idea what we lose have to be minus from what we can have with new system.)
but now the real think the new vip have to be earned only via trowing money ikr is too bad for ppl but we ruin the economy with zen excange i think ad and zen have to be separate think thats yur prob... In a ftp game yes who pay need advantage and some quality of life improved but who play free cmon yu play free cant have all item in zen market XD.
But for do this yu neeeed to gain bk us trust. so 1st think .. happy player = happy customer...yu first have to solve some think pc mountgate baroviahuntgate and balance...make the game fun and after maybe yu see player back to spend lot of money ..is a lot of work cheer ..
And a good marketing is a montly vip on every d&d book or table game.as a promo code for new ppl account claimable at level70
Disclaimer: I didn’t read any of the thread. My cleric is near or at end game. The rate of free keys. • I think lockbox odds are so bad now, if you gave me 1000 keys a month (with current boxes) I still wouldn’t get anything good. I have no reason to believe doubling, tripling or increasing lockbox odds ten-fold will make a difference in what I pull. I expect people will complain increasing lockbox odds will kill the market. Alternate Keys: • The option of a prize box with wards, enchanting stones (nothing below ES R4) is interesting. But people will complain if the items are unbound and kill the market. Current Benefits: • Above all Injury Immune • Travel post is #1 used benefit. • Auction house fee elimination #2 • Bank is #3 • Mailbox #4 • Profession vendor #5 • Teleport to Moonstone Mask #6 • Seal Vendor #7 because the game drops seals that can’t be exchanged for AD so she is useless. • I hate the XP boost for leveling, it causes me to out level content before it’s done. I’d like to be able to toggle this off. New Benefits: • Zone load in option from login screen as a VIP benefit. I want to choose where to start gameplay. Typically, I load into a zone and move somewhere else immediately. • A weekly random campaign currency pack • 15% Increased guild marks when donating to the coffer. • Morale discount for professions. Auction house: • This reads as an AD grab. • I’d like AH listings to be across account. Meaning all characters have access to the same listed items. The number of listing slots should increase with each additional character. VIP Example: • The store idea make for a predictable experience, I like this. • Make the keys unbound so I can sell them. • See my thoughts on lockboxes above. • People will love an increase in daily AD provided it doesn’t come with a reduction of Raw AD earning potential. • +1 for the loadout change • Amount HP needs to be increased. • I’m fine with rank removal, but how will that affect price?
Overall VIP is the only thing worth buying in the game. Currently it is a good value.
Froger - Barbarian - Original Main - The Freak Core - Xbone Jade - Cleric - Healer Main - The Freak Core - Xbone Magnus - Fighter - Tank for queues - The Freak Core - Xbone Loverboy - Ranger - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone Nomnomnommm - Wizard - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone I Am The Wall - Paladin - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone Xeros - Rogue - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone RIP bad name - Warlock - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone Bardholomew - Bard - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone Sirona - Cleric - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
for the record I've seen a number of people complain about the vendors. I do use the professions vendor regularly. I use it to sell things mostly. on occasion I buy from her. the seals vendors have been useless for ages. ever since they took salvage away. the gear is good for no one as a general rule.
For me I only care about VIP for keys or rather the chance at getting cool items from the lock box (which generally i give away). I am sure there are plenty more reasons to be excited about VIP but for whatever reason I just haven't learnt to the other benefits of the system yet. This is partly because of poor discover ability and teaching (accessibility) around these benefits and also because I am still learning some other key aspects of the game that they relate to.
....
Chris
Can I ask what Rank VIP you have got to? If you have jumped to Rank 12 and don't find the access to the Sign Post et al, more useful than one daily key, I'd give it some more time and then dump the VIP for a week while grinding Legacy weeklies and see which you miss the most. Go to Soshenstar... go do those daily quests over at Camp "Why did we build this on what is obviously an Ancient Cursed Burial Ground." and then realise you have to ride all the way back to the far side of the map to leave.
If you haven't got the signpost/bank vault/mail box yet, then once you do get them, you will certainly not want to go back to not having them.
And just another point to add, that doubling the chances of the big prize is not the same as doubling the value of the standard lock box, (I realised that I'd not made this point on my main post).
I'm never expecting a daily VIP key to yield a Legendary Mount. It;s happened a few times, but I'm just lucky I guess. If I'm halving my number of keys, for someone like me to see the return as being "balanced" I would need to see double the value of the rewards I GET. Not an increased chance of getting one super special thing. If, say, I don't get a legendary mount, or new super pet in the first 50 boxes, and what I do get is the rather more typical fayre such as R9 Enchant, 2 green insignia, and some RP stones. (In other words... a load of RP) then I'm sitting here wondering what I actually got out of the deal.
I haven't bought a key in... I don't remember... and since I finally equipped my last toon with a Deep Crow pet I haven't spent a penny in the Trade Bar Store...
If my VIP daily rewards drop from whatever 30 x the usual daily average of RP is, to 15 times whatever the usual daily average of RP is, then I don't give a fiddlers pluck how my odds of getting a Legendary Mount went up over that period. I'm thinking rather that my daily load of crappy RP from lock-boxes just got twice as crappy.
Now I'm still buying VIP, cos of the signpost and other stuff I mentioned that I've come to rely on, but you as a vendor are losing a lot of goodwill. Halving my crappy RP haul is not going to be mitigated by the notion that some whale buying 500 keys a week is now likely to get twice as many Legendary Mounts as before...
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,460Arc User
for the record I've seen a number of people complain about the vendors. I do use the professions vendor regularly. I use it to sell things mostly. on occasion I buy from her. the seals vendors have been useless for ages. ever since they took salvage away. the gear is good for no one as a general rule.
I use the seal vendor a lot to sell stuff to her for gold. I used to use the profession vendor to do the same but profession vendor needed more clicks (they have changed that). I do that regularly. May be 10 to 20 times a day. I also use seal vendor to get rAD from seal. There are still seal out there that can be exchanged for rAD.
Yes, the extra gear is only good for RP and sometime (if it is allowed) good for gold. Of course, there are also treasure item, VIP potions, etc to sell for gold too.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
I think you should get all VIP rewards every day whether you log in or not. It is insane to me that you have to log in every day to get things you ALREADY PAID FOR. Letting these currencies or keys build up one at a time is perfectly fine but you should not ever be penalized for spending a few days taking care of your family and not logging in.
Not directly related to increasing the *value* of VIP, but has it ever been considered to put VIP in the AD store? This would alleviate some pressure on the ZAX and people wouldn't have to wait 36-40 days :O for it to churn for them.
Maybe put it in the AD store at the maximum price it could be bought through ZAX conversion, so 750k ad. It might also be good to have a few different options, one to increase only time, and another to increase only rank each at say, 500k ad.
If the ZAX exchange rate ever dropped below 750 ad / zen, then people could still use the ZAX if they wanted to wait for it.
> @jimmypdt said: > Feedback Overview: Overall changes to VIP > "After reading through everyone's comments it is clear that making big changes (i.e. removing/changing existing benefits) would no sit well with people that have pre-paid VIP for months and years into the future. This problem is due to the fact that you sold rank plus time together... > > Please don't take away existing benefits. People will value each benefit differently, but we all purchased VIP for a reason and making a change or removing will suck a lot." > > I think @franklin223 said this perfectly. And i completely agree. I'm sure others would as well. > > Feedback Goal > > Discuss options to improve VIP without devaluing what players have already purchased or to "turn off" new players/players whose VIP is about to expire from wanting to purchase it. > > Feedback Functionality > > I would strongly recommend not increasing the level of VIP beyond 12 and add in a few benefits (which you were considering) around rank 8 to rank 11 and not reducing the level of rank either. I would also recommend a small re-shuffling of certain QoL/benefits for certain ranks to make VIP appear more "worthwhile" to invest in. (Yes this is an investment. Both money and time) > > As it currently stands, it costs 12K Zen to get to rank 12. (less with coupons, sales, etc... but close enough) Each rank offers unique benefits and QoL perks. And, as you have already read, all of which are used and valued depending on the player. The main reason you don't want to go above rank 12 (ie. rank 16, 18, 20 whatever it may be) is that new players will look at that and say "HAMSTER THAT" it would be far too expensive at first sight. It would be a huge "turn off" for newer players. They would do some quick mental math and conclude that it would be far too expensive/time consuming to achieve that. > > As for not reducing the levels of VIP ranks. You need an incentive for players to pay more money and to play over a longer period of time, That is where the Ranks of VIP comes in. Some players will look at VIP and see "NO INJURIES" and say I want that and buy several ranks of VIP to get that. Congrats you just locked them in for several months now (not always but often enough). Now that they are locked in for the next few months, they might decide "Hey I want some press wards and an epic mount for all my characters". Congrats, you made more money. BUT if you put everything to Rank 1 and only have the one rank of VIP, well you only have 30 days till its up and then they might say " This game is MEH, time to play ESO since nothing is keeping me here now". There is a video about stuff like this. I think it was called "lets go whale hunting" can't remember but now I'm getting off topic. So yes I think 12 Ranks is a good number (At most you could reduce it to 10 but I still think 12 is better. Not too high and not too low). > > As for the re-shuffling. You need to sweeten the deal with Rank 1. You get some nice things at rank 1 right now with a re-roll token, an enchanted key, 10% xp, professions, and stuff. But you really need to sell it to people. When new people look at it they see two things stand out. Then increase to XP for faster leveling and the enchanted key. They most likely don't understand about the bonus to AD (very few ways to get AD early on) or the re-roll token yet (none of the dungeons they've been running has the re-roll option yet). So here is my idea for what Rank 1 VIP should be to entice players to buy it. > > At level 30, from the leveling box, you should get 7 days of free VIP. Give them a taste and they will want more... > > Rank 1: > -10% bonus to RAD/XP/Glory/Profession XP/Gold gain. > (Most of this is the same from what we have now except gold. Gold is important early on to swap out enchantments due to leveling gear always changing) > > -10% off the cost to rush training of companions and to refill moral at the workshop. > (most people don't remember to send their companion off for training before they log off for the night. As for professions, this might give them a little boost to spend some AD to up their workshop) > > -10% reduction cost of removing enchantments from items > (goes back to the first perk with the gold increase) > > -5% off all items in the Zen store. Does not stack with coupons or flash sales > (store could use an update. and talk to us/let us know before you change things please)(VIP=VERY IMPORTANT PERSON. You need to make them feel special. Stores give discounts for being members. The same should be here. Entice them) > > -5% off the cost to re-roll a chest at the end of a dungeon/skirmish/trial > (This goes with the whole 7 days of free VIP to entice players to want to keep it and even upgrade it. By the end of 7 days, they should be running the lower end epic dungeons) > > -Summon the professions vendor OR the signpost for quick travel (one or the other at this rank) > (this should be one of the first things to be unlocked for new players to persuade them to work on professions and allows them to sell things. OR. The signpost is a nice incentive to push a player to try it out and once they lose it (And I feel this every time I go to the preview sever) they will want it back) > > -Able to teleport straight to the workshop > (like the moonstone mask. not the world map. Push the professions on them to burn gold and AD. and please update the professions) > > -Access to the Moonstone Mask VIP area > (not sure if many still use this but it is VIP. And VIP=VERY IMPORTANT PERSON) > > -5 VIP Potions of health per character. Heals the player for 50% of max HP. > (The healing potions during leveling and even at end game do like 30-40% even with the boons on many characters, usually less. The leveling ones are even worse) > > -Every day receive 1) 1 Re-roll token per character (These two are obvious) > 2) 1 VIP chest key per Account > > Sweeten the deal at Rank 1 and give them 7 days of FREE. Let them taste it and many of them will want more. The other ranks can be sweetened as well to entice a player to want more of something like no injuries and % bonus campaign currency. So by rank 12 they could have a nice discount on removing enchantments, reduce the cost to re-roll chests by like 20% or other things you may wish to add. (I really liked the idea about an increase to campaign currency. I can't remember who said it in the thread. Players old and new would want that!!!) > > Now with all that being said, MAKE SURE YOU DON'T REMOVE ANYTHING SOMEONE ALREADY PAID MONEY FOR (ie move the ability to summon the mailbox from Rank 6 to Rank 8 or remove something altogether) If they have it, let people keep it. > > > Risks & Concerns > > Two things. One: DON'T REMOVE ANYTHING SOMEONE ALREADY PAID MONEY FOR. If anything is removed from what someone has purchased you will generate even more bad blood. Two: Balance. You want to entice people to buy VIP for the QoL/benefits but not make it look like its full on Pay to Win. Tough cookie to crack. And more and more gamers are getting wiser about these practices. > > I was really hoping that this subject would come up in a CDP, but not this soon. I strongly recommend putting this on the back burner and tackling another subject first like rewards. Main reason why is that several aspects of VIP should have there own CDP first to lay the ground work for it like lootboxes (rewards), the AH, etc... > > Remember everyone, this is just ideas being tossed about, and my quick opinion on it. Some will agree, others (probably many judging by what I've said) will definitely not agree. So now I challenge each of you whom agree, or disagree to tell me their ideas. (I've read everything in this thread up to this point) I want to see what we can come up with!! And not just players. I want to hear the ideas from the NW team. All of them if possible. Big and small. Artist to coders. You say you want to work together then lets do it. Throw ideas back a forth till something sticks!!!! > > All the best, > > OPTank_
Hi OPTank,
Here are a few of my thoughts and ideas from an earlier post. I have more but thought I would share these first:
‘For me I only care about VIP for keys or rather the chance at getting cool items from the lock box (which generally i give away). I am sure there are plenty more reasons to be excited about VIP but for whatever reason I just haven't learnt the other benefits of the system yet. This is partly because of poor discover ability and teaching (accessibility) around these benefits and also because I am still learning some other key aspects of the game that they relate to.
Personally I would like an option: something like the choice of a daily key or a currency (coin used to buy fixed priced items from not just the current lock box but ones before it as well as cosmetics and other personality items). That way if there is something i really want I can work toward it and when i am in the mood i can buy keys for fun. This coupled with lowering of odds would be great for me that is.
Update: I think it would be cool if in the above proposed store you can buy keys for the price of a coin and conversely trade a coin for a key. This way my compulsion to claim keys or coins at any specific time can be exercised regardless of what I have selected but not spent in the past with no penalty.
... Personally I would like a 'Forge' as well where as a VIP member i could spend currency on backlog/roadmap items (features, content etc) that I would like to see be moved up in priority I have other thoughts but this one will do for now.’
I am sure some of the team will post their thoughts/ideas when they are back in the office next week.
Although you didn't bring this up; why not just bring it to MMO standards and make it 1500 Zen? You could convert the accrued VIP time people currently have and have purchased in the past into VIP Loyalty Store points so everyone that supported the game would be thanked. Then everyone starts out at the 1500 Zen VIP price point so you get your money that you need to fund the game right off the get go. More incentives for VIP below in the talking points.
Rate of Free Keys
I personally don't care about the keys. I would never purchase keys or lock boxes in a game that I'm paying a subscription for. I have a year of VIP already bought and paid for. I wouldn't be your target customer.
VIP Loyalty Store
It sounds like something that was successful on Rift and a lot of people purchased subscriptions ahead of time to get points, items, benefits, etc. I don't remember if they made it retroactive or not to veteran players having been subscribed before the change but it'd be something nice you could do for players that have supported you over the years. Maybe the stuff would be account/character bound to protect the Auction House economy. This is a pretty good idea overall because we get to choose the reward we want instead of just receiving only keys/re-roll tokens every day.
VIP Rank Removal
I am okay with this. The Loyalty Store could have mile markers for veterans to hit for certain unique rewards. I think giving an incentive to people to have VIP would be better overall and giving them all the benefits from just purchasing a month of VIP would be great and put everyone on an equal footing.
Current Benefits
I like all the benefits. I played Rift a lot and they fall in about the same category of what they offered. Everything you offer now is pretty good. You could look at Rift's patron system and other MMOs for ideas to add but I can't think of any except what I'll mention below.
New Benefits
VIPs should be able to convert double the AD. 15% is not enough incentive. This could be a choice they could make with their daily loyalty point(s). Honestly this would be the only benefit I'm interested in. If you want people to purchase VIP this would make it so everyone purchases it to support the game because of this huge incentive.
Auction House
Capitalism 101. I don't think you should touch this. You'd be messing with people who actually do buy keys and lock boxes. A lot of them have supported the game over the years and will continue to do so. This would be a huge slap in the face to them and also players in general that sell on the auction house.
You could add Auction House slots (maybe 5 or 10 per purchase) into the Services tab. If you want professions to make a come back; this would probably help that out. There's plenty of stuff in crafting that can be made that's useful on the way to level 80 and even some stuff at level 80.
I vote for keeping the Auction House the same.
Professions (Bonus item that's not talked about here)
VIPs get double morale (or unlimited morale/no morale cost to craft). Make Professions Great Again. I'm sure this will be a huge discussion in a later CDP though. But I think developers seriously underestimate the amount of people that are interested in crafting and these limitations just make it not worth it. Alright sorry for that being off topic.
Conclusion
Give VIP a huge benefit and everyone would purchase it out right. And with maybe certain loyalty goals unlocked after 3/6/12/18/24 months etc; bonus points or unique items, people will purchase VIP ahead of time. You need more money for Neverwinter and I think this is one of the ways to get there. As always with games like this; if you ask too much or give very little... players leave and they may never come back. MMO 101. Every MMO has to try and find that happy medium and Neverwinter is pretty close but could do better.
> @mordekai#1901 said: > (Quote) > Can I ask what Rank VIP you have got to? > If you have jumped to Rank 12 and don't find the access to the Sign Post et al, more useful than one daily key, I'd give it some more time and then dump the VIP for a week while grinding Legacy weeklies and see which you miss the most. > Go to Soshenstar... go do those daily quests over at Camp "Why did we build this on what is obviously an Ancient Cursed Burial Ground." and then realise you have to ride all the way back to the far side of the map to leave. > > If you haven't got the signpost/bank vault/mail box yet, then once you do get them, you will certainly not want to go back to not having them. > > > > And just another point to add, that doubling the chances of the big prize is not the same as doubling the value of the standard lock box, (I realised that I'd not made this point on my main post). > > I'm never expecting a daily VIP key to yield a Legendary Mount. It;s happened a few times, but I'm just lucky I guess. If I'm halving my number of keys, for someone like me to see the return as being "balanced" I would need to see double the value of the rewards I GET. Not an increased chance of getting one super special thing. > If, say, I don't get a legendary mount, or new super pet in the first 50 boxes, and what I do get is the rather more typical fayre such as R9 Enchant, 2 green insignia, and some RP stones. (In other words... a load of RP) then I'm sitting here wondering what I actually got out of the deal. > > I haven't bought a key in... I don't remember... and since I finally equipped my last toon with a Deep Crow pet I haven't spent a penny in the Trade Bar Store... > > If my VIP daily rewards drop from whatever 30 x the usual daily average of RP is, to 15 times whatever the usual daily average of RP is, then I don't give a fiddlers pluck how my odds of getting a Legendary Mount went up over that period. I'm thinking rather that my daily load of crappy RP from lock-boxes just got twice as crappy. > > Now I'm still buying VIP, cos of the signpost and other stuff I mentioned that I've come to rely on, but you as a vendor are losing a lot of goodwill. > Halving my crappy RP haul is not going to be mitigated by the notion that some whale buying 500 keys a week is now likely to get twice as many Legendary Mounts as before...
Hi Mordekai,
Thanks for your post. I am rank 4. Note this is the first time I have even opened up the panel to check. I wasn’t pointed to it’s existence in any tutorial in the game. As I mentioned before in this CDP this is a problem in of itself in regard to VIP perceived value and engagement from players. However as per the accessibility CDP, solving this issue will be part of Streamlining.
You got a leg toad already, didn't you @cwhitesidedev#9752 ? While it is.. Well the toad, it is still completely different to most people's lockbox experience. Even if you doubled the new lockbox chances it is still too low to justify any change on the keys. The first year I played NW I got 1 epic comp pack. The only leg I ever pulled, and I have had R12 for a while too, was a leg alembic worth a bit over 1 mil. There are threads, videos, chats discussing if opening lockboxes in a certain map or at a certain time enhances chances. Hell, people did Hell Pit because they are so desperately thirsty for their first leg! A leg power mount or the bis mounts in general are so expensive I have seen adults lose their HAMSTER over gaining one. VIP is not about some leg, it is part of NW's economy in a way that puts the Stardock issue to shame imo.
Sure there are people that do not care about their keys. But what they might care about is the other various ways they make profit through VIP. Touch one, even if it seems unimportant to you, will certainly change the game. Maybe I am being dramatic.
Long story short: If you plan to switch out things instead of just adding MORE to VIP, no thanks.
May sound greedy of me, but I found 1:750 greedy, not upgrading the tradebar store beyond the hatchling unsatisfying, the focus on AH fees unnecessary, and thats just the latest issues. (I 2a In the last few mods we were robbed of various methods of making AD. Salvage also was a way more engaging method than sitting out Tia for RTQ. Profession could've been so great, and I (many of us) invested into the new jazz in M15, because why would you rework professions if you didn't think about it being more consistently important than in the past. We were told those recipes would "remain bis for a while". All that lost options to make AD, and how they affect guild marks / SH vendors / guild content and you are not talking about increasing those options, but about some VIP store that sounds like an event NPC.. People adapt to NW, learn this and that, hear of this and that, and suddenly they can use high VIP ranks to make profit long down the road means they have to unlock those ranks first (money/time investment) and that they plan ahead. If I want to sell some stuff I bought discounted or not on bazaar/ TB store I either plan ahead (and plan to still play this game weeks and months after sales) or lose profit. Those are some of the last few ways to progress in playing NW that need a bit of brain and foresight. (Also closely related to guild mark value, guild progression, treasure hunter boon, MW unlocking..)
Here’s a crazy idea, and I don’t want to read all the posts to get up to date,
Whatever you all agree to/come up with - cash us all out on our existing VIP and relaunch it. I’d be good with it and it would be a good way to get out of the lockbox game - those days are coming to an end as it is.
Comments
Pay to Win is a situation in gaming (usually MMOs or Massively Multiplayer Online games) where companies allow you to buy items or advantages with real money that cannot be obtained normally by playing the game.
Which in nw is not the case.
You can literaly farm zen by converting ad , thus making it obtainable.
You can get everything in the game with time and effort, EVERYTHING.
for example, i've been playing 6 years spent 20 bucks more or less and have all the beST gear/mounts and everything else. Granted they prefer someone who spends, and i am the prime example of players they don't want because i grind for everything instead of using real money..
so yah, not pay 2 win at all.
Regards Galactic Undewear.
I feel like the keys give people a reason to get on daily, or gives them something to look forward to when they are able to get on. Some weeks I can only get on a couple of days, but it is nice to know I will be able to get some keys in addition to playing the game.
I guess I would have to see exactly how the limited keys would work, because I wouldn't want to miss out on them due to irl responsibilities.
Alternates to keys
I would be open to this personally. Would the trade-bar store be rolled into this? Also, the big question is, can we buy a legendary mount this way?
Ranks
I am rank 12, so this would not affect me. It may lead to better retention if people get the full effect on the first month.
Current Benefits
Which of the current benefits of VIP do you value and why?
The signpost is the best thing ever. Other than that, the keys and re-roll tokens are nice as well as the HP and summoning bank etc.
What would you like to see added in terms of benefits?
Auction House
I just like not having to pay AD to list. I do not have enough opinion on this topic to be useful.
Here is an example of how VIP could look. Note: this is just an example but it is here to help provide insight and context into some of our thoughts:
VIP Example
All of that sounds fine to me.
Feedback Format
I do not have a ton of alternate feedback on this topic. It sounds like you have some good ideas. My only addition, which may not be related-and if not my apologies- would be, We need more ways of getting our hands on Legendary Mounts. Possibly through VIP currency etc.
Thank you for this program!
Keep rocking it!
Right now, VIP is the LAST thing you need to worry about.
Allow me a moment of your time with this.
The SOLE reason I have VIP is the simple fact I want to support the game and that I'm lazy. I don't want to run across Dwarven Valley when I'm done with IWD, I don't want to have to run to the bank, I don't want to run to a vendor. I want invoke wherever I'm at and be done with it. The rest, for the most part, are "nothing" rewards.
Moonstone Mask? I've never once been there. It's useless to me and serves no purpose, especially since I can summon a bank, mailbox, teleporter, vendor anywhere.
VIP Key? It's HAMSTER. In order for it to be "worth" it's "value", I need at least 93500 in AD value. You're lucky to get even a third of that, even worse with the new lockbox mechanics. I've never once, after opening over a thousand lockboxes hit the jackpot. Not one single meta-tier item. Nope. I mostly get junk and that's expected, 'cos lockboxes are based off Casinos. The bank always wins. 4 Black Opals? That's worth 12k AD. You DEVALUED them when you added the 70-80 profession jobs and sorry, I'm not wasting gold to make over-priced Blood Rubies. I have STACKS of RP.
I actually used a key the other day, after the SNAFU on Mod 18's release (which should have NEVER have happened, by the way.) I wanted to see if anything improved.
I got 4 Black Opals, A rank 9 Dread and a Portal of Belial. That was barely 50k worth of AD and that's IF I could sell it. You know what the WORST part was?
You gave me an junk Artifact from 6 YEARS AGO and yet, didn't you just nerf an artifact set from 2 years ago, as you decided it reached it's end of life? So some HAMSTER Artifact that's 6 years old has more value than a set from 2?
I open keys once a month and when I do, I'm not excited. It's more, "Gee, how much HAMSTER am I going to get that's going to take up bag space this time?" Typically I just give the HAMSTER away to new players. I don't need more junk items, clogging up my bag space, personal bank, shared bank and guild bank.
Re-roll Tokens? Again, useless to me. I don't run dungeons anymore, due to the fact that a lot of the player base I can't stand from elitism and the fact that the dungeons I AM geared to run, drop HAMSTER rewards. If I did run a dungeon, the RNG and rewards are so lackluster, I'll probably end up with worse, by using Re-roll Tokens.
5 Potions a day? Again, a junk item. I have stacks of them and thanks to them being bound, they're only worth Gold. I make a whopping 64 gold month getting that junk out of my inventory. I can make that in 3 days, doing professions. Back when we had ID scrolls, I could make 225 Gold off the Scrolls I got monthy, by just ID'ing Blues. Now, the only Blues we seem to find are "Gaiters of the Miser Developer", which are only worth, again, useless RP.
15% off Astral Diamond Store? Pssh. The only thing to me, worth buying were the MoP R4s and only when the AD store was on sale. In fact, the LAST time I bought 3 stacks, spending 4.5 million AD, you screwed me, 'cos it was right before Mod 16 and I upgraded ALL of my 10 toons triple-stat enchants to a minimum of 10, plus a few weapon enchants. Most of these are now not even worth the value of the MoP R4s I invested in them, at their discount value of 60%, 'cos of the stupid design changes from Mod16 that NOBODY wanted.
There is *NOTHING* else of value in the Astral Diamond Store. I should be able to buy account bound Pres Wards there. I should be able to buy account bound Coals there. In fact, EVERYONE should.
Tarmalune Store? What's worth buying there, except for a deepcrow hatchling, some scrolls of life and stones of health? It takes approximately 160 keys to get enough Tarmalune Bars to purchase a hatchling. (I'm taking your pathetically abysmal RNG into account, as the "jackpots" are again based off casinos.) Sure you might make some AD off scrolls and stones of health, but as it's been pointed out, the Billionaires will scoop them up to control the AH and the market or you'll have to sell them at such a low price, it's not really worth it.
To add insult to injury, you've already stated that the Tarmalune Store won't be updated until Mod 19 which won't come until the END of the year.
Ad nauseam......
* * *
Look, the point I'm trying to make is it's fairly obvious you need some influx of capital from Neverwinter. I appreciate what you're trying to do, but understand, most of us, myself included, are jaded by all the BS that has taken place for YEARS. I have NO intentions of buying VIP in November, when mine runs out, unless Neverwinter does a complete 180 in regards to pricing, content, bug fixing, et al.
Your priority needs to be restructuring the AD Store, Tarmalune Store, the Zen Store and provide us with something of VALUE for our money, in addition to new, creative content that is bug free and engaging.
[EDIT] - Oh wow. I just found out they pulled the Legendary Insignia Pack from the Mount Section of the Zen Store. No more 33% off. Chris, this is exactly WHY you're not making money on the Zen store. *shakes head*
"After reading through everyone's comments it is clear that making big changes (i.e. removing/changing existing benefits) would no sit well with people that have pre-paid VIP for months and years into the future. This problem is due to the fact that you sold rank plus time together...
Please don't take away existing benefits. People will value each benefit differently, but we all purchased VIP for a reason and making a change or removing will suck a lot."
I think @franklin223 said this perfectly. And i completely agree. I'm sure others would as well.
Feedback Goal
Discuss options to improve VIP without devaluing what players have already purchased or to "turn off" new players/players whose VIP is about to expire from wanting to purchase it.
Feedback Functionality
I would strongly recommend not increasing the level of VIP beyond 12 and add in a few benefits (which you were considering) around rank 8 to rank 11 and not reducing the level of rank either. I would also recommend a small re-shuffling of certain QoL/benefits for certain ranks to make VIP appear more "worthwhile" to invest in. (Yes this is an investment. Both money and time)
As it currently stands, it costs 12K Zen to get to rank 12. (less with coupons, sales, etc... but close enough) Each rank offers unique benefits and QoL perks. And, as you have already read, all of which are used and valued depending on the player. The main reason you don't want to go above rank 12 (ie. rank 16, 18, 20 whatever it may be) is that new players will look at that and say "HAMSTER THAT" it would be far too expensive at first sight. It would be a huge "turn off" for newer players. They would do some quick mental math and conclude that it would be far too expensive/time consuming to achieve that.
As for not reducing the levels of VIP ranks. You need an incentive for players to pay more money and to play over a longer period of time, That is where the Ranks of VIP comes in. Some players will look at VIP and see "NO INJURIES" and say I want that and buy several ranks of VIP to get that. Congrats you just locked them in for several months now (not always but often enough). Now that they are locked in for the next few months, they might decide "Hey I want some press wards and an epic mount for all my characters". Congrats, you made more money. BUT if you put everything to Rank 1 and only have the one rank of VIP, well you only have 30 days till its up and then they might say " This game is MEH, time to play ESO since nothing is keeping me here now". There is a video about stuff like this. I think it was called "lets go whale hunting" can't remember but now I'm getting off topic. So yes I think 12 Ranks is a good number (At most you could reduce it to 10 but I still think 12 is better. Not too high and not too low).
As for the re-shuffling. You need to sweeten the deal with Rank 1. You get some nice things at rank 1 right now with a re-roll token, an enchanted key, 10% xp, professions, and stuff. But you really need to sell it to people. When new people look at it they see two things stand out. Then increase to XP for faster leveling and the enchanted key. They most likely don't understand about the bonus to AD (very few ways to get AD early on) or the re-roll token yet (none of the dungeons they've been running has the re-roll option yet). So here is my idea for what Rank 1 VIP should be to entice players to buy it.
At level 30, from the leveling box, you should get 7 days of free VIP. Give them a taste and they will want more...
Rank 1:
-10% bonus to RAD/XP/Glory/Profession XP/Gold gain.
(Most of this is the same from what we have now except gold. Gold is important early on to swap out enchantments due to leveling gear always changing)
-10% off the cost to rush training of companions and to refill moral at the workshop.
(most people don't remember to send their companion off for training before they log off for the night. As for professions, this might give them a little boost to spend some AD to up their workshop)
-10% reduction cost of removing enchantments from items
(goes back to the first perk with the gold increase)
-5% off all items in the Zen store. Does not stack with coupons or flash sales
(store could use an update. and talk to us/let us know before you change things please)(VIP=VERY IMPORTANT PERSON. You need to make them feel special. Stores give discounts for being members. The same should be here. Entice them)
-5% off the cost to re-roll a chest at the end of a dungeon/skirmish/trial
(This goes with the whole 7 days of free VIP to entice players to want to keep it and even upgrade it. By the end of 7 days, they should be running the lower end epic dungeons)
-Summon the professions vendor OR the signpost for quick travel (one or the other at this rank)
(this should be one of the first things to be unlocked for new players to persuade them to work on professions and allows them to sell things. OR. The signpost is a nice incentive to push a player to try it out and once they lose it (And I feel this every time I go to the preview sever) they will want it back)
-Able to teleport straight to the workshop
(like the moonstone mask. not the world map. Push the professions on them to burn gold and AD. and please update the professions)
-Access to the Moonstone Mask VIP area
(not sure if many still use this but it is VIP. And VIP=VERY IMPORTANT PERSON)
-5 VIP Potions of health per character. Heals the player for 50% of max HP.
(The healing potions during leveling and even at end game do like 30-40% even with the boons on many characters, usually less. The leveling ones are even worse)
-Every day receive 1) 1 Re-roll token per character (These two are obvious)
2) 1 VIP chest key per Account
Sweeten the deal at Rank 1 and give them 7 days of FREE. Let them taste it and many of them will want more. The other ranks can be sweetened as well to entice a player to want more of something like no injuries and % bonus campaign currency. So by rank 12 they could have a nice discount on removing enchantments, reduce the cost to re-roll chests by like 20% or other things you may wish to add. (I really liked the idea about an increase to campaign currency. I can't remember who said it in the thread. Players old and new would want that!!!)
Now with all that being said, MAKE SURE YOU DON'T REMOVE ANYTHING SOMEONE ALREADY PAID MONEY FOR (ie move the ability to summon the mailbox from Rank 6 to Rank 8 or remove something altogether) If they have it, let people keep it.
Risks & Concerns
Two things. One: DON'T REMOVE ANYTHING SOMEONE ALREADY PAID MONEY FOR. If anything is removed from what someone has purchased you will generate even more bad blood. Two: Balance. You want to entice people to buy VIP for the QoL/benefits but not make it look like its full on Pay to Win. Tough cookie to crack. And more and more gamers are getting wiser about these practices.
I was really hoping that this subject would come up in a CDP, but not this soon. I strongly recommend putting this on the back burner and tackling another subject first like rewards. Main reason why is that several aspects of VIP should have there own CDP first to lay the ground work for it like lootboxes (rewards), the AH, etc...
Remember everyone, this is just ideas being tossed about, and my quick opinion on it. Some will agree, others (probably many judging by what I've said) will definitely not agree. So now I challenge each of you whom agree, or disagree to tell me their ideas. (I've read everything in this thread up to this point) I want to see what we can come up with!! And not just players. I want to hear the ideas from the NW team. All of them if possible. Big and small. Artist to coders. You say you want to work together then lets do it. Throw ideas back a forth till something sticks!!!!
All the best,
OPTank_
We are all people, we all have emotions and as others have stated, the original topic was not worded well. It started out with questions on how we would feel about certain things. The problem was is everything that was listed was a negative. it all involved taking something away from us that we currently have. It was not until you got further down into your "example" that additions were listed. These were mostly good ideas. Nothing overly powerful but nice little QOL things.
Regardless i went back and looked at the original post again and noticed a couple things. specifically the first two points
VIP Example
Instead of directly getting reroll tokens, VIP would be given a VIP currency and would have a store. The contents of this store would adjust over time but would likely start with things such as Preservation Wards, Enchanting Stones, Companion Upgrade Tokens, and yes Reroll Tokens.
10-15 Lockbox Keys per month – These would now be in the new VIP store and players could go all in on keys only to max out at 15, or could opt for fewer keys and more of the other rewards which gives players more flexibility in what VIP offers them.
I know this is an example and but this is exactly what people are worried about. a Bait and Switch. Just in these two points you have two examples of indicating a bait and switch. First you have the VIP store and currency. you specifically state it will start with good things but the contents will change. How long will we be able to get wards before it is decided that we have had enough and they disappear? Secondly 10-15 lockboxes per month we can go all in to get 15 keys. meaning we spend all of our currency for 1/2 or 1/3 of what we were previously getting. This is a straight devaluation of what we have, regardless if lockbox rates are increased.
Even the predecessor to this post, this lockbox response thread, was ended with a tiny bait and switch. you used the bug with the lockbox to introduce this CDP, instead of what people were expecting, as if they are dependent on each other. This is completely false. Obviously i dont have numbers, but i would expect that the amount of Lockboxes opened via the daily free VIP key would pale in comparison to the amount opened from regularly purchased keys. I am not even sure if you have a way to differentiate between the two. Regardless the lockbox bug has at best has a tangential association to VIP and is not a definitive issue concerning it.
To me it doesn't look like much of anything has changed. we have been told some big landscape type goals but no real information behind them at this point. Yes I do realize that a lot cannot be said at various times but it feels like we are still getting the run around and not having truthful answers. I dont know you and what your history is, but a lot of the forum population was pretty happy that you came on board, so you have some leeway and trust with the community. You also do seem to much more active on the forums than previous staff so that is a good thing. I fear posts like this one which are viewed to most as a negative change are quickly going to eat away at that leeway that trust.
I feel this CDP is not primarily about VIP.
The signs are obvious that the NW product is struggling financially:
* A big fall in users as documented by the Steam charts
* The ZAX conversion rate has fallen from 1M Zen/day to 0.5M Zen/day - and this probably ties fairly directly into
Cryptic's income from Zen
* A flood of never-before-seen offerings from Cryptic trying to get people to spend more on game
* This discussion also contributes to that slightly-desperate-for-income picture
I feel this CDP is about 'How can we change the VIP to increase our total income'.
A business must make money, or it will go away. So being focused on the income is completely OK and necessary, I just wish more thought was given to it before it got this far. It is in the interest of all the players that Cryptic got a good and solid income from the game or there will be a reduced game or no game at all.
Income = Arpu * number of users
Arpu = Accumulated Revenue Per User, how much you earn per user(the term might be unknown to some)
The main reason I see for this CDP is that any attempt to increase the arpu could backlash in a reduction in the number of users. That is a very valid concern.
The word trust has been mentioned several times in this thread. Trust means that the customer is anticipating that the company does not do anything that is contrary to their interests. Trust is hard to build and very easy to lose. If the customers lose trust in the company the number of users is likely to fall because people leave, and the arpu is likely to fall since people dare not invest in a company that can change things around at any moment.
So keeping the trust of the customers actually is very important to keep the income up. Mod 16 for instance represented a massive trust loss for Cryptic since it took away a lot of goodies that people had worked hard for. Also a number of fairly bland expansions have lost customer trust in the ability to progress the game. And (I am sorry) discussions like this reduces trust in the continued existence of the game.
Lets also talk about the whip and the carrot.
Whip = when you force people to buy something to have a good play experience
Carrot = When people see that not having something will not have a big negative effect, but they still desire it to improve their play experience. They purchase something out of joy.
Neverwinter currently is fairly unique in that the business model is almost entirely based on the carrot. Most other MMORPGs to some extent use the whip by denying access to content unless you pay. Changing that model to any noticeable extent could have very unforeseen effects on both arpu and player numbers. Be careful.
In general, trying too hard to increase the arpu is dangerous, as it too easily leads to reduced player numbers far outweighing the increased arpu. As someone posted earlier in this thread: We (the players) are not stupid.
Specific comments on VIP:
* Taking away anything in the product will lead to loss of trust and unhappiness
* Trying to increase key sales by reducing key drops in VIP will lead to loss of trust and unhappiness
Keys are an important part of VIP not just because the chance of a legendary drop, but selling the smaller
lockbox drops let you recover some of the expenses of VIP. Trying to argue that the Legendary droprate remains constant
will not hit home as that really is not the main point of the keys.
* As long as the total benefits from VIP remains constant, getting them from a store adds flexibility and is positive
* Giving everyone rank 12 from first VIP buy is positive - it could however lead to some loss in VIP sales as people have
no incentive to buy more VIP, so I am not sure if the income effect of this would be positive.
My feeling is that VIP is in a pretty good spot at the moment and I don't really see any need for major changes to it, in particular changes motivated in increased income. Development time probably could be better spent elsewhere. Be very careful.
Serious suggestion: Let next CDP be 'What would you like added to the game that you would buy for Zen?' Give the players a chance at helping you increase the arpu without a player number backlash.
2. Please do not remove the free cost in the AH. The market is on the move and you have to react. It is not very attractive to offer items. Buyers also benefit from it.
3. VIP Market sounds good :-) There should be special worthwhile items. VIP must be something special, compared to no vip.
4. An additional buff that you can choose from a selection
(*Adopts Mr Plinkett voice for a moment* Ardent Favour, Celestial Synergy, Tarmalune Trade Bar Merchant, out of date professions vendors, Wondrous Bazaar, every campaign zone, out of date armour merchant, Sybella, extra stores in campaign zones for different currencies, every event, most events' extra store for second and third tier currencies, out of date jewelry merchant, zones from pre L60 content with stores for currencies people forgot they got, out of date seal vendors, Neverember's Incentives guy, other seal vendor across the way, out of date weapon merchant, potions guy, out of date "implements" guy... I'm not even going to get into all the out of date HAMSTER in the Stronghold...)
...I would advocate that there are enough stores that need reinvigorating before adding another that will be stuffed with goods that will be 75% out of date a year after inception and will sit there while ONE item or maybe two gets purchased with whatever currency you invent for it.
Please... no new (especially permanent) stores for new invented currencies till you sort out the mess of old ones How would I feel about this?
Utterly ambivalent.
I value nothing about the ranks per se as I have had Rank 12 since about.. 7 or 8 months into playing. It all blends into one at that point.
I would certainly not resent any new player gaining all VIP benefits when first buying in, if that is the real question being asked here, since anything that simple, which might improve player retention, would be something I am in favour of. Travel Post, Daily Key, Rerolls, Post Box, Banking Portal, Bonus AD, Invocation.
Personally, I think you can get rid of the Hit Points and avoid anything that gives characters rather than players an edge. For me VIP should be about Player QoL only and not impact on characters' combat stats at all. But that's just my opinion and I doubt it's shared by many. I'm genuinely fine as is.
Though, for me, you could get rid of Moonstone Mask, and unless you are going to keep the Seal Vendor and Professions Trader up to date you might as well sack them off too as they are superfluous.
I'm not one of those players who will go mental if you remove the Seal Vendor and start saying stuff like "That was the only reason I used VIP... compensate me with 10'000 ZEN and a free Legendary Mount right now!!!"
I'm happy if you just clear out the useless HAMSTER or, even better, make it work properly. I don't need or want more useless HAMSTER in it's place. It IS wrong to have a two tier system.
Remove this perk from VIP.
Maybe try this instead.
Remove the cost to post from the Auction House entirely and have it run on commission only.
BUT... implement a charge to withdraw items early which amounts to the same cost as the existing posting charge. If you can't afford to withdraw it, it stays where it is. If the goods don't sell, they are returned free of charge. That way newer people without VIP can post that sexy "lucky drop" artifact they found that's going for 500'000 AD without having to stump up a load of up front fees.
The more simple devices you can implement to narrow the gap between new, AD poor, players and established "wealthier" players the better the chances of player retention.
Feedback Overview: Key Changes
My thoughts on the key changes, keeping in mind that regardless of what change you make it likely does not impact my gameplay so I am pretty much impartial with regards to what you do to keys.Feedback Goal
Restructure the key change proposal so that if changes were made to keys to lessen the economic impact and increase the chances that any changes to keys are successful.Feedback Functionality
Instead of changing the odds on the lockboxes, I would add a different key to VIP, a "VIP Enchanted Key" which has a higher drop rate than ordinary keys and leave the drop rate of ordinary keys alone. The reason for this is, because this is what I believe would happen if you implemented the key change as proposed.- The value of keys in general would go up, so more people would buy keys who are not getting them from VIP.
- Whilst on average the amount of VIP keys would remain the same, the value from the lockbox keys would go up a lot.
- The increased supply from ordinary keys, would cause the value of items on the auction house to decline significantly. This is a result of supply vs demand.
- The value of the VIP goes down, due to the increase of the normal key.
- Riots ensue.
The problem is that changes to VIP keys and regular keys are currently not independent and so if you make any changes at all to keys, the results will impact both. Reducing the number of keys provided by VIP will currently always be a nerf to VIP, because relative to non VIP keys, you are getting less bang for your buck from VIP. If you wanted this key to also be purchasable outside of VIP, you could sell it independently for a higher price.Risks & Concerns
Ranks, no ranks, it doesn't really bother me too much. From the rank rewards, I think the mailbox and the signpost are the only things I use.
I would rather keys go up to two a day, rather than increasing odds. Because, lets be honest. If legendary mount is 0.0000001% odds currently, doubling this is an increase, but still so remote that it will probably not be worth it, and then we will have had keys halved as well, so nothing changes. Keep the odds the same, but double the keys. Most of the time I get refine items anyway, so you wouldn't be losing money as such.
I would like to see coal wards, pres wards etc being given out in lockboxes, rather than gems.
I love the game but it increasingly feels like you are trying to get as much money as you can, as quickly as you can. I appreciate the game is free, so it's how you make your money. But it is now feeling more lie a cash grab than a game, and you're losing players, fast. In the last six months I have noticed how few people there are in Stardock, Yawing Portal and PE. It's heart breaking. I have made some great friends through the game, but they are leaving the game, as they feel developers don't care about the players, just what money they can get.
When preservation and coalescent wards were in the Tarmalune Shop then keys kept value anyway as you could buy the wards with the Tarmalune. Add wards back to the Tarmalune store and suddendly VIP and Keys will increase their value. Put enchanting stones there and it will be even better. I think that simply restructuring the Tarmalune bars shop and the Tarmalune bars drop rates from lockboxes would be enough to handle this issue, no need to create a new currency and store.
Agree with the removal of ranks and would love the ability to change loadouts away from campfires.
Born of Black Wind: SW Level 80
this gives us a reason to log in every day. people that buy keys, buy keys regardless of vip. vip is not enough for their needs. Increasing the odds won't change this. if there was a slightly higher chance of getting a lego mount it changes nothing other than maybe make it cheaper to trade/buy on the ah.
in other words, it's not eating your key sales. not at all. the reason key sales have gone down is because of the new lockboxes. not because of vip. not because of drop rate The overall value of lockboxes has diminished with the new style boxes and the old style boxes value have also diminished because of changes in the market. If you want higher key sales, changes NEED to be made to the lock boxes to make them more relevant and it has nothing to do with the lego mount odds. it has to do with the meat and potatoes of the boxes.
Rn the new boxes on average give about 6k back to you in enchantments/refining stones. That's it. Taking refining stones and enchantments out of the new style boxes would go along way towards making them relevant. The old style boxes are losing value because a couple of the things that used to be more relevant aren't. but they're still way better than the modern boxes. basically the meat and potatoes of boxes needs to have on average near the price of opening the box for people to spend money on it. most aren't completely idiotic who open these, they aren't like I don't care that I get nothing from it if I don't get mount.. They hope for a mount yes, but they are counting on the meat and potatoes to sustain them. if the meat and potatoes cannot sustain they stop buying.
I know I, and probably others are more than happen to help with monetization of the game, but please do be transparent about it. we aren't monkeys.
>
>
> * Players will still see this as a nerf, even if its functionally the same.
>
> * You are making a change to a system that currently works reasonably well, for no discernible gain. Pretty much anyone who spends zen, also has VIP because it is 1 of the first things you would buy.
This.
VIP is the ONLY thing I advertise to newer players. I tell them to play the game and if they can, get VIP.
I do usually explain how the ZAX works, but many just want to have a good time and buy a month here or there...
I do advertise it because it is worth it, and because you can reasonably buy it either with your time (and here it is mostly selling of lockbox-drops and putting that AD back in ZAX) or your money.
When I miscalculated or spent the lockbox AD on something else, I have also bought VIP with real money before. Especially in times where I have an hour max to play and I don't just wanna sit in my workshops and in AH all hour long I do this... And I think many that do not make a lot of side AD ingame do that too.
I wouldn't buy it anymore if I had to do that every month.
A vendor that hallow us switch encantment ...they will be bta ok but as a vip we need to be treated as a vip 1 wep and1 def enc switch + 5 r15 exchange montly.we cant keep push up think every time yu change meta cmon we are vip no?
Ah feedback
Ah without listening tax and possibility to listen 40 item faster 1by1.. if yu want let us pay a tax yu hv to guarante a cashbk for us example
i put a r15 that ah say wort 399k i put at 450k i pay 45k tax for listen. if i no sell ah offer a choice ah will buy it for the 85% value (based on true value they say 399k)and we give back to yu the 45k yu paied for listen or item back with ad losed for tax.
from game this make 2 think .... Ppl can clean inventory and item dont be redunant cuz yu delete so if ppl want to buy have to buy be4 ah make his offert to the player...i hope is understandable my eng not good.plus yur ah decide the price who ppl have to respect without abuse.
feedback for key
if yu really want to half us key we hv to hv something back... Store where we have a daily logon choice selection summonable from interface or auto pop at login... Ex daily reward(all think bta nothing resellable) token pet x1, ad rougue box 20k and similiar think that wort 20kto 35k a weekly login reward 25pward bound or similiar value item montly vip reward coal bta or a choice from a purple pet(6pet choice if 6 month will be pet reset) or a purple mount ... (The store have to be interest not like vault of pity damn)plus 1key with improvment drop rare as yu say every 48hour. (For give an idea what we lose have to be minus from what we can have with new system.)
but now the real think the new vip have to be earned only via trowing money ikr is too bad for ppl but we ruin the economy with zen excange i think ad and zen have to be separate think thats yur prob... In a ftp game yes who pay need advantage and some quality of life improved but who play free cmon yu play free cant have all item in zen market XD.
But for do this yu neeeed to gain bk us trust. so 1st think .. happy player = happy customer...yu first have to solve some think pc mountgate baroviahuntgate and balance...make the game fun and after maybe yu see player back to spend lot of money ..is a lot of work cheer ..
And a good marketing is a montly vip on every d&d book or table game.as a promo code for new ppl account claimable at level70
Sey for text wall
The rate of free keys.
• I think lockbox odds are so bad now, if you gave me 1000 keys a month (with current boxes) I still wouldn’t get anything good. I have no reason to believe doubling, tripling or increasing lockbox odds ten-fold will make a difference in what I pull. I expect people will complain increasing lockbox odds will kill the market.
Alternate Keys:
• The option of a prize box with wards, enchanting stones (nothing below ES R4) is interesting. But people will complain if the items are unbound and kill the market.
Current Benefits:
• Above all Injury Immune
• Travel post is #1 used benefit.
• Auction house fee elimination #2
• Bank is #3
• Mailbox #4
• Profession vendor #5
• Teleport to Moonstone Mask #6
• Seal Vendor #7 because the game drops seals that can’t be exchanged for AD so she is useless.
• I hate the XP boost for leveling, it causes me to out level content before it’s done. I’d like to be able to toggle this off.
New Benefits:
• Zone load in option from login screen as a VIP benefit. I want to choose where to start gameplay. Typically, I load into a zone and move somewhere else immediately.
• A weekly random campaign currency pack
• 15% Increased guild marks when donating to the coffer.
• Morale discount for professions.
Auction house:
• This reads as an AD grab.
• I’d like AH listings to be across account. Meaning all characters have access to the same listed items. The number of listing slots should increase with each additional character.
VIP Example:
• The store idea make for a predictable experience, I like this.
• Make the keys unbound so I can sell them.
• See my thoughts on lockboxes above.
• People will love an increase in daily AD provided it doesn’t come with a reduction of Raw AD earning potential.
• +1 for the loadout change
• Amount HP needs to be increased.
• I’m fine with rank removal, but how will that affect price?
Overall VIP is the only thing worth buying in the game. Currently it is a good value.
Jade - Cleric - Healer Main - The Freak Core - Xbone
Magnus - Fighter - Tank for queues - The Freak Core - Xbone
Loverboy - Ranger - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Nomnomnommm - Wizard - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
I Am The Wall - Paladin - Alt - Droppin Crits on Fools - Xbone
Xeros - Rogue - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
RIP bad name - Warlock - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Bardholomew - Bard - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Sirona - Cleric - Alt - 9 3/4 Unbuffed - Xbone
Jade - DC - Shadows of Gauntlgrym - PC
If you have jumped to Rank 12 and don't find the access to the Sign Post et al, more useful than one daily key, I'd give it some more time and then dump the VIP for a week while grinding Legacy weeklies and see which you miss the most.
Go to Soshenstar... go do those daily quests over at Camp "Why did we build this on what is obviously an Ancient Cursed Burial Ground." and then realise you have to ride all the way back to the far side of the map to leave.
If you haven't got the signpost/bank vault/mail box yet, then once you do get them, you will certainly not want to go back to not having them.
And just another point to add, that doubling the chances of the big prize is not the same as doubling the value of the standard lock box, (I realised that I'd not made this point on my main post).
I'm never expecting a daily VIP key to yield a Legendary Mount. It;s happened a few times, but I'm just lucky I guess. If I'm halving my number of keys, for someone like me to see the return as being "balanced" I would need to see double the value of the rewards I GET. Not an increased chance of getting one super special thing.
If, say, I don't get a legendary mount, or new super pet in the first 50 boxes, and what I do get is the rather more typical fayre such as R9 Enchant, 2 green insignia, and some RP stones. (In other words... a load of RP) then I'm sitting here wondering what I actually got out of the deal.
I haven't bought a key in... I don't remember... and since I finally equipped my last toon with a Deep Crow pet I haven't spent a penny in the Trade Bar Store...
If my VIP daily rewards drop from whatever 30 x the usual daily average of RP is, to 15 times whatever the usual daily average of RP is, then I don't give a fiddlers pluck how my odds of getting a Legendary Mount went up over that period. I'm thinking rather that my daily load of crappy RP from lock-boxes just got twice as crappy.
Now I'm still buying VIP, cos of the signpost and other stuff I mentioned that I've come to rely on, but you as a vendor are losing a lot of goodwill.
Halving my crappy RP haul is not going to be mitigated by the notion that some whale buying 500 keys a week is now likely to get twice as many Legendary Mounts as before...
Yes, the extra gear is only good for RP and sometime (if it is allowed) good for gold. Of course, there are also treasure item, VIP potions, etc to sell for gold too.
Maybe put it in the AD store at the maximum price it could be bought through ZAX conversion, so 750k ad. It might also be good to have a few different options, one to increase only time, and another to increase only rank each at say, 500k ad.
If the ZAX exchange rate ever dropped below 750 ad / zen, then people could still use the ZAX if they wanted to wait for it.
Concern
VIP gives AD store discount.
> Feedback Overview: Overall changes to VIP
> "After reading through everyone's comments it is clear that making big changes (i.e. removing/changing existing benefits) would no sit well with people that have pre-paid VIP for months and years into the future. This problem is due to the fact that you sold rank plus time together...
>
> Please don't take away existing benefits. People will value each benefit differently, but we all purchased VIP for a reason and making a change or removing will suck a lot."
>
> I think @franklin223 said this perfectly. And i completely agree. I'm sure others would as well.
>
> Feedback Goal
>
> Discuss options to improve VIP without devaluing what players have already purchased or to "turn off" new players/players whose VIP is about to expire from wanting to purchase it.
>
> Feedback Functionality
>
> I would strongly recommend not increasing the level of VIP beyond 12 and add in a few benefits (which you were considering) around rank 8 to rank 11 and not reducing the level of rank either. I would also recommend a small re-shuffling of certain QoL/benefits for certain ranks to make VIP appear more "worthwhile" to invest in. (Yes this is an investment. Both money and time)
>
> As it currently stands, it costs 12K Zen to get to rank 12. (less with coupons, sales, etc... but close enough) Each rank offers unique benefits and QoL perks. And, as you have already read, all of which are used and valued depending on the player. The main reason you don't want to go above rank 12 (ie. rank 16, 18, 20 whatever it may be) is that new players will look at that and say "HAMSTER THAT" it would be far too expensive at first sight. It would be a huge "turn off" for newer players. They would do some quick mental math and conclude that it would be far too expensive/time consuming to achieve that.
>
> As for not reducing the levels of VIP ranks. You need an incentive for players to pay more money and to play over a longer period of time, That is where the Ranks of VIP comes in. Some players will look at VIP and see "NO INJURIES" and say I want that and buy several ranks of VIP to get that. Congrats you just locked them in for several months now (not always but often enough). Now that they are locked in for the next few months, they might decide "Hey I want some press wards and an epic mount for all my characters". Congrats, you made more money. BUT if you put everything to Rank 1 and only have the one rank of VIP, well you only have 30 days till its up and then they might say " This game is MEH, time to play ESO since nothing is keeping me here now". There is a video about stuff like this. I think it was called "lets go whale hunting" can't remember but now I'm getting off topic. So yes I think 12 Ranks is a good number (At most you could reduce it to 10 but I still think 12 is better. Not too high and not too low).
>
> As for the re-shuffling. You need to sweeten the deal with Rank 1. You get some nice things at rank 1 right now with a re-roll token, an enchanted key, 10% xp, professions, and stuff. But you really need to sell it to people. When new people look at it they see two things stand out. Then increase to XP for faster leveling and the enchanted key. They most likely don't understand about the bonus to AD (very few ways to get AD early on) or the re-roll token yet (none of the dungeons they've been running has the re-roll option yet). So here is my idea for what Rank 1 VIP should be to entice players to buy it.
>
> At level 30, from the leveling box, you should get 7 days of free VIP. Give them a taste and they will want more...
>
> Rank 1:
> -10% bonus to RAD/XP/Glory/Profession XP/Gold gain.
> (Most of this is the same from what we have now except gold. Gold is important early on to swap out enchantments due to leveling gear always changing)
>
> -10% off the cost to rush training of companions and to refill moral at the workshop.
> (most people don't remember to send their companion off for training before they log off for the night. As for professions, this might give them a little boost to spend some AD to up their workshop)
>
> -10% reduction cost of removing enchantments from items
> (goes back to the first perk with the gold increase)
>
> -5% off all items in the Zen store. Does not stack with coupons or flash sales
> (store could use an update. and talk to us/let us know before you change things please)(VIP=VERY IMPORTANT PERSON. You need to make them feel special. Stores give discounts for being members. The same should be here. Entice them)
>
> -5% off the cost to re-roll a chest at the end of a dungeon/skirmish/trial
> (This goes with the whole 7 days of free VIP to entice players to want to keep it and even upgrade it. By the end of 7 days, they should be running the lower end epic dungeons)
>
> -Summon the professions vendor OR the signpost for quick travel (one or the other at this rank)
> (this should be one of the first things to be unlocked for new players to persuade them to work on professions and allows them to sell things. OR. The signpost is a nice incentive to push a player to try it out and once they lose it (And I feel this every time I go to the preview sever) they will want it back)
>
> -Able to teleport straight to the workshop
> (like the moonstone mask. not the world map. Push the professions on them to burn gold and AD. and please update the professions)
>
> -Access to the Moonstone Mask VIP area
> (not sure if many still use this but it is VIP. And VIP=VERY IMPORTANT PERSON)
>
> -5 VIP Potions of health per character. Heals the player for 50% of max HP.
> (The healing potions during leveling and even at end game do like 30-40% even with the boons on many characters, usually less. The leveling ones are even worse)
>
> -Every day receive 1) 1 Re-roll token per character (These two are obvious)
> 2) 1 VIP chest key per Account
>
> Sweeten the deal at Rank 1 and give them 7 days of FREE. Let them taste it and many of them will want more. The other ranks can be sweetened as well to entice a player to want more of something like no injuries and % bonus campaign currency. So by rank 12 they could have a nice discount on removing enchantments, reduce the cost to re-roll chests by like 20% or other things you may wish to add. (I really liked the idea about an increase to campaign currency. I can't remember who said it in the thread. Players old and new would want that!!!)
>
> Now with all that being said, MAKE SURE YOU DON'T REMOVE ANYTHING SOMEONE ALREADY PAID MONEY FOR (ie move the ability to summon the mailbox from Rank 6 to Rank 8 or remove something altogether) If they have it, let people keep it.
>
>
> Risks & Concerns
>
> Two things. One: DON'T REMOVE ANYTHING SOMEONE ALREADY PAID MONEY FOR. If anything is removed from what someone has purchased you will generate even more bad blood. Two: Balance. You want to entice people to buy VIP for the QoL/benefits but not make it look like its full on Pay to Win. Tough cookie to crack. And more and more gamers are getting wiser about these practices.
>
> I was really hoping that this subject would come up in a CDP, but not this soon. I strongly recommend putting this on the back burner and tackling another subject first like rewards. Main reason why is that several aspects of VIP should have there own CDP first to lay the ground work for it like lootboxes (rewards), the AH, etc...
>
> Remember everyone, this is just ideas being tossed about, and my quick opinion on it. Some will agree, others (probably many judging by what I've said) will definitely not agree. So now I challenge each of you whom agree, or disagree to tell me their ideas. (I've read everything in this thread up to this point) I want to see what we can come up with!! And not just players. I want to hear the ideas from the NW team. All of them if possible. Big and small. Artist to coders. You say you want to work together then lets do it. Throw ideas back a forth till something sticks!!!!
>
> All the best,
>
> OPTank_
Hi OPTank,
Here are a few of my thoughts and ideas from an earlier post. I have more but thought I would share these first:
‘For me I only care about VIP for keys or rather the chance at getting cool items from the lock box (which generally i give away). I am sure there are plenty more reasons to be excited about VIP but for whatever reason I just haven't learnt the other benefits of the system yet. This is partly because of poor discover ability and teaching (accessibility) around these benefits and also because I am still learning some other key aspects of the game that they relate to.
Personally I would like an option: something like the choice of a daily key or a currency (coin used to buy fixed priced items from not just the current lock box but ones before it as well as cosmetics and other personality items). That way if there is something i really want I can work toward it and when i am in the mood i can buy keys for fun. This coupled with lowering of odds would be great for me that is.
Update: I think it would be cool if in the above proposed store you can buy keys for the price of a coin and conversely trade a coin for a key. This way my compulsion to claim keys or coins at any specific time can be exercised regardless of what I have selected but not spent in the past with no penalty.
... Personally I would like a 'Forge' as well where as a VIP member i could spend currency on backlog/roadmap items (features, content etc) that I would like to see be moved up in priority I have other thoughts but this one will do for now.’
I am sure some of the team will post their thoughts/ideas when they are back in the office next week.
Chris
Cost Of VIP
Although you didn't bring this up; why not just bring it to MMO standards and make it 1500 Zen? You could convert the accrued VIP time people currently have and have purchased in the past into VIP Loyalty Store points so everyone that supported the game would be thanked. Then everyone starts out at the 1500 Zen VIP price point so you get your money that you need to fund the game right off the get go. More incentives for VIP below in the talking points.Rate of Free Keys
I personally don't care about the keys. I would never purchase keys or lock boxes in a game that I'm paying a subscription for. I have a year of VIP already bought and paid for. I wouldn't be your target customer.VIP Loyalty Store
It sounds like something that was successful on Rift and a lot of people purchased subscriptions ahead of time to get points, items, benefits, etc. I don't remember if they made it retroactive or not to veteran players having been subscribed before the change but it'd be something nice you could do for players that have supported you over the years. Maybe the stuff would be account/character bound to protect the Auction House economy. This is a pretty good idea overall because we get to choose the reward we want instead of just receiving only keys/re-roll tokens every day.VIP Rank Removal
I am okay with this. The Loyalty Store could have mile markers for veterans to hit for certain unique rewards. I think giving an incentive to people to have VIP would be better overall and giving them all the benefits from just purchasing a month of VIP would be great and put everyone on an equal footing.Current Benefits
I like all the benefits. I played Rift a lot and they fall in about the same category of what they offered. Everything you offer now is pretty good. You could look at Rift's patron system and other MMOs for ideas to add but I can't think of any except what I'll mention below.New Benefits
VIPs should be able to convert double the AD. 15% is not enough incentive. This could be a choice they could make with their daily loyalty point(s). Honestly this would be the only benefit I'm interested in. If you want people to purchase VIP this would make it so everyone purchases it to support the game because of this huge incentive.Auction House
Capitalism 101. I don't think you should touch this. You'd be messing with people who actually do buy keys and lock boxes. A lot of them have supported the game over the years and will continue to do so. This would be a huge slap in the face to them and also players in general that sell on the auction house.You could add Auction House slots (maybe 5 or 10 per purchase) into the Services tab. If you want professions to make a come back; this would probably help that out. There's plenty of stuff in crafting that can be made that's useful on the way to level 80 and even some stuff at level 80.
I vote for keeping the Auction House the same.
Professions (Bonus item that's not talked about here)
VIPs get double morale (or unlimited morale/no morale cost to craft). Make Professions Great Again. I'm sure this will be a huge discussion in a later CDP though. But I think developers seriously underestimate the amount of people that are interested in crafting and these limitations just make it not worth it. Alright sorry for that being off topic.Conclusion
Give VIP a huge benefit and everyone would purchase it out right. And with maybe certain loyalty goals unlocked after 3/6/12/18/24 months etc; bonus points or unique items, people will purchase VIP ahead of time. You need more money for Neverwinter and I think this is one of the ways to get there. As always with games like this; if you ask too much or give very little... players leave and they may never come back. MMO 101. Every MMO has to try and find that happy medium and Neverwinter is pretty close but could do better.> (Quote)
> Can I ask what Rank VIP you have got to?
> If you have jumped to Rank 12 and don't find the access to the Sign Post et al, more useful than one daily key, I'd give it some more time and then dump the VIP for a week while grinding Legacy weeklies and see which you miss the most.
> Go to Soshenstar... go do those daily quests over at Camp "Why did we build this on what is obviously an Ancient Cursed Burial Ground." and then realise you have to ride all the way back to the far side of the map to leave.
>
> If you haven't got the signpost/bank vault/mail box yet, then once you do get them, you will certainly not want to go back to not having them.
>
>
>
> And just another point to add, that doubling the chances of the big prize is not the same as doubling the value of the standard lock box, (I realised that I'd not made this point on my main post).
>
> I'm never expecting a daily VIP key to yield a Legendary Mount. It;s happened a few times, but I'm just lucky I guess. If I'm halving my number of keys, for someone like me to see the return as being "balanced" I would need to see double the value of the rewards I GET. Not an increased chance of getting one super special thing.
> If, say, I don't get a legendary mount, or new super pet in the first 50 boxes, and what I do get is the rather more typical fayre such as R9 Enchant, 2 green insignia, and some RP stones. (In other words... a load of RP) then I'm sitting here wondering what I actually got out of the deal.
>
> I haven't bought a key in... I don't remember... and since I finally equipped my last toon with a Deep Crow pet I haven't spent a penny in the Trade Bar Store...
>
> If my VIP daily rewards drop from whatever 30 x the usual daily average of RP is, to 15 times whatever the usual daily average of RP is, then I don't give a fiddlers pluck how my odds of getting a Legendary Mount went up over that period. I'm thinking rather that my daily load of crappy RP from lock-boxes just got twice as crappy.
>
> Now I'm still buying VIP, cos of the signpost and other stuff I mentioned that I've come to rely on, but you as a vendor are losing a lot of goodwill.
> Halving my crappy RP haul is not going to be mitigated by the notion that some whale buying 500 keys a week is now likely to get twice as many Legendary Mounts as before...
Hi Mordekai,
Thanks for your post. I am rank 4. Note this is the first time I have even opened up the panel to check. I wasn’t pointed to it’s existence in any tutorial in the game. As I mentioned before in this CDP this is a problem in of itself in regard to VIP perceived value and engagement from players. However as per the accessibility CDP, solving this issue will be part of Streamlining.
Chris
The first year I played NW I got 1 epic comp pack. The only leg I ever pulled, and I have had R12 for a while too, was a leg alembic worth a bit over 1 mil. There are threads, videos, chats discussing if opening lockboxes in a certain map or at a certain time enhances chances. Hell, people did Hell Pit because they are so desperately thirsty for their first leg!
A leg power mount or the bis mounts in general are so expensive I have seen adults lose their HAMSTER over gaining one.
VIP is not about some leg, it is part of NW's economy in a way that puts the Stardock issue to shame imo.
Sure there are people that do not care about their keys. But what they might care about is the other various ways they make profit through VIP.
Touch one, even if it seems unimportant to you, will certainly change the game.
Maybe I am being dramatic.
Long story short: If you plan to switch out things instead of just adding MORE to VIP, no thanks.
May sound greedy of me, but I found 1:750 greedy, not upgrading the tradebar store beyond the hatchling unsatisfying, the focus on AH fees unnecessary, and thats just the latest issues. (I 2a
In the last few mods we were robbed of various methods of making AD. Salvage also was a way more engaging method than sitting out Tia for RTQ. Profession could've been so great, and I (many of us) invested into the new jazz in M15, because why would you rework professions if you didn't think about it being more consistently important than in the past.
We were told those recipes would "remain bis for a while".
All that lost options to make AD, and how they affect guild marks / SH vendors / guild content and you are not talking about increasing those options, but about some VIP store that sounds like an event NPC.. People adapt to NW, learn this and that, hear of this and that, and suddenly they can use high VIP ranks to make profit long down the road means they have to unlock those ranks first (money/time investment) and that they plan ahead.
If I want to sell some stuff I bought discounted or not on bazaar/ TB store I either plan ahead (and plan to still play this game weeks and months after sales) or lose profit.
Those are some of the last few ways to progress in playing NW that need a bit of brain and foresight. (Also closely related to guild mark value, guild progression, treasure hunter boon, MW unlocking..)
Whatever you all agree to/come up with - cash us all out on our existing VIP and relaunch it. I’d be good with it and it would be a good way to get out of the lockbox game - those days are coming to an end as it is.