Additionally please remove AH posting fee from everyone VIP or not. It would make everyone happy and people who paid for VIP wont leave the game over it.
Remove all discounts from VIP - AH posting fee elimination [...]. Before VIP removed posting fees Legendary mounts ran 2-5 million and were much more attainable than they are now. If players do not have the astral to post an item they can still trade player to play as many of them do now
Interesting, how divided the player base is about this (and other) perks.
Obviously, lots of hidden agendas. Gentle reminder: Everyone who posts here as a more or less hidden agenda, including myself. Some are more open with what they really want, some not so much.
Lets sort through a couple of different perspectives for the example given above:
1. Hidden Agenda: "We want high AH prices" (obviously sellers, also Cryptic at least to some extent)
This hidden agenda is very seldom openly expressed. Rather what we hear is the following "argument":
- undercutting is bad, hurts the economy I must really laugh when I read this. One of the major advantages of a free market economy is, that you have competition. Competition generally attempts to undercut your prices (unless you have a monopoly or illegal price fixing arrangement). Undercutting by the competition keeps prices and profit margins reasonably low. This is considered as one of the best traits of a free market economy. To say that this is "bad for the economy" is just hilarious. Undercutting might hurt an individual seller. But the economy does not care about individuals. It only cares about the total.
Why is Cryptic interested in high AH prices? There are people that buy ZEN for real money, convert to AD via ZAX to buy stuff from the AH. Higher AH prices means more ZEN sold. But only, if the AD/ZAX conversion rate it capped! If it is not capped at say 750 AD / ZEN, and rises to 1000 AD / ZEN, less ZEN is sold. Of course, if the cap is increased, prices in the AH feel rise as well. But this effect is indirect and there are limits: If AD prices are so high, that people cannot earn it, the market crashes. Generally, capping the exchange rate is more beneficial for Cryptic than a free floating rate. Now you know, why there is a cap. Simple.
typical argument: - AH posting fee is good; keeps people from posting stuff at unreasonably high prices This argument is actually more honest than the "argument" typical argument given for 1.
In any case, this simple example shows, what @spelldazer explained in a preceding post (her post is much more fun to read than mine, actually an engaging story instead of technical stuff ): People on the forums not always say what they really want (= hidden agendas). In order to make good decisions, the devs need to be aware of the difference.
SNIP
I'd like to think I'm fairly open about my agenda =D
I enjoyed your post, wanted to add just a bit of background on my opinion (honestly didn't expect anyone to read and discuss).
I'm actually a seller, been selling for years. Used to sell refinement back in the day, buy Zen when price was low, sell when high, purchase whatever was on a discount, sit on it for 3-9 months and sell at opportune times. Farm content for drops to sell. Been doing it long enough to have a really good dataset (anecdotal, I don't spreadsheet or anything but rough based on percentage increases in account wealth over time). As crazy as it sounds, lower AH prices and under cutters are generally better for sellers, because we can turn a profit on volume and timing. This doesn't come cheap by the by, I have 16 characters with full runic bags and half of them have full bank slots unlocked just to hold the items. I have no problem with either, and in fact recognize that there is only an opportunity to make money in game when items are moving - which by and large they aren't outside of a few niches. People posting for high prices and holding out for them are usually posting to create the illusion of value, sometimes to scam other players for trades that aren't in their favor so they can sell the gains from the trade - but thats another topic.
What I think is really meant by the undercutting comment from the CM is that there is, at least on Xbox, a relatively small number of individuals and groups who attempt to corner the market on items, a popular example is Mastercraft gear. I myself have received a few messages over time from players warning me that I shouldn't post certain items (that flaming blue rage drake mount for instance), or shouldn't post those items for so cheap, and that they would run me into the ground and out of business if I continued. Ultimately I've held my own against some of them long enough to cash out of that market, but many don't. And that is a huge problem, and it largely stems from them not having to pay to post and repost these items. This kind of behavior needs to be stopped, it is not good for anyone in the game seller or buyer. Most effective way I can see of making that happen is to charge people to post items, and only return that money if the item sells at the listed price. I fully believe the average player, and the game market as a whole, will re-adapt to that charge, and while it may take a couple of months for people to get used to it and new market prices to stabilize, I think it will overall benefit everyone involved who does not participate in that sort of predation.
rainer does the odds on lockboxes. it's not transparent from cryptic but there is info out there. I think the rate is like .017 or something like that
Thanks thefiresidecat. I have no idea who rainer is, but unless s/he's Cryptic staff, people shouldn't need to search/work out for themselves what the rates are. It should be readily available in game. That really goes for all pertinent game information.
As an aside, .017 is a really *cute hamster* number.
Rainer is one of the best content creators associated with the game. Go to Youtube search "Rainer Neverwinter" and prepare to learn a lot. Every time a new lock box appears, Rainer opens 10'000 of them on the preview server and collates the results. This gives a pretty effective gauge for the chances of various drop rates.
As @firesidecat says, over the many times Rainer has done this, the typical number of Legendary Mounts he gets is in the 0.16-0.17 range. He also worked out that (taking into account Tarmalune Trade Bar Jackpots) the average number of TTBs that drops from a single lock box is almost exactly 8. (But that's the average, because of the jackpots, the typical drop is lower.)
Let's say Cryptic triple the chances of a lock box to 0.5 percent... the typical one a day Joe is still unlikely to see much action. You will still need to be very lucky to hit a 1:200 chance which is down from a 1:600 chance. BUT... those guys who open hundreds of lock boxes every week/month are going to get three times as many legendary mounts.
And does anyone think because their supply just tripled they will cut their AH value to 1/3?
(P.S. If you DO believe this, then I have a bag of magic beans that I would like to sell to you. Throw them on the ground before you go to bed and a beanstalk will grow in the night that leads to a giant's castle in the clouds where all manner of riches await the eager hero...)
Who does a raise in the "Chase Item" odds benefit? It's not the little guy, that's for sure.
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darthpotaterMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,261Arc User
... This kind of behavior needs to be stopped, it is not good for anyone in the game seller or buyer. Most effective way I can see of making that happen is to charge people to post items, and only return that money if the item sells at the listed price. I fully believe the average player, and the game market as a whole, will re-adapt to that charge, and while it may take a couple of months for people to get used to it and new market prices to stabilize, I think it will overall benefit everyone involved who does not participate in that sort of predation.
Hope that makes sense.
Bold mine. This is exactly how the AH works, you have a 2% posting fee that return to you if the item is sold. The "problem" is that VIP removed that posting fee.
Brief description of myself as a player, as requested: I've played for slightly over a year. I'm VIP 12 with 185 days left, and frequently make purchases with cash. I have 17 characters (many of them level 80), run 17 workshops, and am a Senior Officer in a Helm Guild. I'm mostly a solo player that is heavily invested in the narrative, escapist D&D world, and visuals. I found NW through a Humble Bundle promotion for the Ravenloft expansion. I often participate in promo stuff (like the current Alienware and Dragon+). My main has a high enough gear score to access everything, and my youngest characters have whatever low stuff drops. I like to play a little everyday, but consider myself a casual player with pretty low skill.
My top 3 VIP experiences and hopes: 1. Don't take any benefits away, please. I'm honestly happy with it now, even if nothing changed. We recommend VIP to new guild members every day. 2. I'd love loyalty perks for those of us that keep VIP active without lapse, and I'm highly motivated by them. 3. I'd love to see the Tarmalune Trade Bar store polished and updated. It would make opening a lockbox more exciting, because the trade bars would be super meaningful rewards again.
For consoles, games are required to publish loot box odds by the end of the year. WotC has committed to this. Senate bill is irrelevant.
The longevity or even viability of the game depends on its ability to justify the company's investment in it. Sometimes, it's not about money but about tying up resources, develooers, etc. This game is built using infra that is shared across a number of games. Therefore, some changes are done by a central group extrinsic to the game develooment and that means things need to be scoped and aligned within constraints that could be less than optimal for the game release cycle. That's just how the dev lifecycle goes.
Having thought about the VIP question some more, I think a new VIP+ offering as someone suggested earlier or some sort of perks packs store is a good way forward. This does not adversely affect the existing model and is fair to everyone at launch.
I think posting fees on the AH are an unnecessary nuisance that just inflates prices. This has nothing to do with VIP. It should go away. The AH deserves a cdp in its own right, tbh. Aggressive sellers exist and will continue to exist. They are a persona that should be researched and dealt with. I don't understand what drives such people anymore than I understand why some people choose to spend their time trolling others in the forum. The exception to this is the odd seller that makes real world cash transactions for high value trade items. Again, not in scope. Changing vip perks will have zero effect on crooked behaviors.
None of us work for Cryptic or PWE or are privy to their actual development cycle or methodology. Saying they should hire an analyst is not only presumtuous, it is silly. They hired Chris. I would expect him to have the experience and business acumen to do his job. Regardless, we don't know what kind of business constraints he/they deal with. I once worked in a group within a large company where any development done had to pay for itself right out the door. Meaning you had to sell it bwfore you wrote even one line of code. Terrible experience for employees but the financial suits were happy.
I think Chris and others have mentioned waiting on technical debt a few times and we have heard in the past that mods are built using inhouse software that cuts down on the need for actual programers. It's clear the NW team are working within costraints and can't always get what they want when they want it. From this perspective, I'm ok with mod19 being pushed to EoY and having incremental updates of which VIP might be a necessary first step in order to get the money to do the necessary next steps. But this brings me back to the beginning...that I hope to see new stuff introduced. Stuff that is so desirable to me that I'd be willing to spend money, real money, on it.
Most important things concerning VIP from my point of view ('New' player, going on 6 months now, currently VIP 9) :
(1) VIP should stand for Quality-of-Life, do not add things that F2P-players cannot overcome by putting in time ('grinding'). (You need both type of players, under this model, to have a successful game.) - Things like Invoking anywhere, Travel Post, Portable Mailbox, Portable Vendor, Portable (guild) bank, ... All these things are very good to have, but not necessary... there are (time-consuming) alternatives for F2P-players. (Though I'm on the fence about Invoking as a mechanism... see (2))
(2) VIP should not offer extra rewards for extra character slots. (Reroll tokens, invoking for wards/coals/vouchers...). Alts should be made to experience the game from another point of view : class/profession/... Even if the playtime on it is used to fuel other character(s), that's still fine. (As it stands now though this game is very alt unfriendly... Truly fleshing out a character is so much work, that I just can't commit myself to really trying an alt... even though I really, really, really want to see/experience the other classes.)
(3) VIP Loyalty Program : Reading through all the posts, it is clear that people enjoy/expect this and done right this effectively replaces the VIP rank/benefits system. I would like to see this two-fold : A. Cosmetic 'Upgrades' : Titles, transmutes, ... to show off your 'veteran' status. (VIP rank to display could be one of them ) B. VIP Currency : The 'tradebar' store, where players can choose how they want their loyalty to be rewarded. (Usefull items, that lessen the grind for the VIP and yes, keys... as it stands you are doomed to offer those, making sure people can at the very least get the same bang for their buck key-wise. Other items could be whatever grind items are put into the game : wards, coals, MoPs, Enchanting Stones, ... things like companions/(legendary) mounts are fine too as long as they don't feature unique powers/benefits that cannot be obtained otherwise. (Unique-to-VIP kick-HAMSTER looks though are exactly what you'd expect here !)
Also please stop gating the rewards behind daily account/character logins... Just hand it out, as an automatic add to your account/character. (It was bought and people should not be punished for RL.) (Also solves the problem of people having bought in for years to come... They get immediate benefit and can buy the high-end items from the store immediately and the newer players can either slowly buy VIP and get there too or buy-in for multiple months/years too. (Cost/Benefit up to the buyer...))
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arcticblitzMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 126Arc User
My Top 3 1.) do not remove or adjust down any current benefits (you can get rid of Ranks) 2.) claim up to 7 Days worth of missed VIP rewards 3.) Super Shop that uses all currency
Blitzy : PVE only Barbarian
Martin ConDion PVE only Ranger Guild Founder: -HunterS-
Why is it that VIP rewards have to be penalized to improve the lockboxes? The lousy box drop rates have nothing to do with VIP. Why is the rest of the player base not paying for the improved drops. Are you going to double or more the price of keys? That would be a fair thing to do, since everyone would get the same benefit, not just VIP players. Of course, that would kill key sales as well. Reducing the number of keys for VIP holders will have the same effect on VIP sales.
Also, how many others remember when they removed "Peaking" in the dungeon chests. The promise was to improve the rewards from the chests substantially in exchange. The improvements lasted what, about 2 weeks. Then back to the same old junk.
It is just basic-level economy, as supply increases so does prices fall. (Which is why diamonds are a false luxury good, for a long time they were hoarded to artificially raise prices.)
So if they improved the loot given by lockboxes as-is, without adjusting the influx of keys, they would just be significantly pulling down the value of whatever it is they add and we would be back at square one.
Think on it this way, if from tomorrow on every single lockbox dropped a Enchanting Stone, Rank 5 that would be great, suddenly the value of every single dropbox you open would skyrocket for about.. five minutes, before market prices crash and Enchanting Stones, Rank 5 have roughly the same value as a peridot.
The stars are falling, and the old gods silent as death, with the blood sworn to rip you down from the night sky, what cost will pose too high?
What I think is really meant by the undercutting comment from the CM is that there is, at least on Xbox, a relatively small number of individuals and groups who attempt to corner the market on items, a popular example is Mastercraft gear. I myself have received a few messages over time from players warning me that I shouldn't post certain items (that flaming blue rage drake mount for instance), or shouldn't post those items for so cheap, and that they would run me into the ground and out of business if I continued. Ultimately I've held my own against some of them long enough to cash out of that market, but many don't. And that is a huge problem, and it largely stems from them not having to pay to post and repost these items. This kind of behavior needs to be stopped, it is not good for anyone in the game seller or buyer. Most effective way I can see of making that happen is to charge people to post items, and only return that money if the item sells at the listed price. I fully believe the average player, and the game market as a whole, will re-adapt to that charge, and while it may take a couple of months for people to get used to it and new market prices to stabilize, I think it will overall benefit everyone involved who does not participate in that sort of predation.
Hope that makes sense.
That makes perfect sense. Never noticed this on PC (EDIT: the bullying), but then I am more a buyer than a seller.
The aim of my post was not to judge what is right or wrong. It might have come over that way (in hindsight I can see that my wording was not the best).
Rather I wanted to point out that most of us are not always completely open with what we really want and what our "true motives" are.
In order to make "good decisions" (from the viewpoint of the *entire* player base and from the viewpoint of increasing revenue in order to keep the game running) it is important for the EP and his team to know what the true motives are and how they affect the different archetypes of players.
For instance, if you take my last example ("make low tier dungeons more challenging"), one needs to know that there is - one group of players (near-bis players, that proposed this in MOD 16 preview), - that almost never run the low tier dungeons, - and therefore are not really affected in a positive or negative way by their own proposal.
But there is also a large group of players (new and mid-level players, far less vocal on the forums), - who's actual gameplay has been rather negatively affected by Cryptic listening to the proposal. As a consequence of the decisions taken (including the bad implementation of scaling) the low tier dungeons (MC, eToS, VT, eLoL) are still more difficult (for new and mid-level players) than the more advanced ones (such as CN)
This is not just a theoretical example, it actually happened in MOD 16. Again, my point is not to judge whether the decision(s) taken were "better" or "worse" for the long term health of the game. This is Cryptic's job and responsibility (and they are also the most affected, because their jobs depend on it). But it seems rather obvious to me, that Cryptic was not really aware of the conflicting interests of the two aforementioned groups of players. Generally I think it is quite risky to implement changes, that do not really affect the gameplay and enjoyment of the group that proposes the changes, but have a large negative effect on the group who's gameplay is directly affected.
Regarding the posting fee, its not a big issue for me either way. Sometimes I sell stuff, there I am happy that I "only" loose 10% instead of 12%, in case that a rare and expensive item does not sell. I very rarely undercut and almost never remove my AH postings prematurely (just don't enjoy watching the market continuously) So undercutting is nothing I am really concerned about, neither as seller or as buyer. Cornering the market - yes I see it occasionally on PC: I just take a "one week leave from AH" and usually the problem is gone.
In any, AH and ZAX merits its own CDP. The same is true for scaling and the difficulty / reward ratio (which is quite off in the low tier dungeons).
Post edited by motu999#9953 on
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kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
A few off topic but relevant comments were moved to a separate thread that can be found here. Please keep your feedback on the topic at hand. Thanks!
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,403Arc User
edited January 2020
I don't like posting fee. Hence, I get the VIP to avoid that.
It is not about I want to undercut. It is about I don't want to pay the cost of not able to sell an item. That will limit posting item that are rare and unpopular.
Before the existence of VIP no posting fee:
Situation 1: I have an item X and it is a rare (say) fashion item. I post that for amount $X, the lowest price in AH. It was not sold after 5 days mainly because nobody looks for it. I lose AD. That means I should not even try to post anything rare and unpopular. That will limit the variety of AH.
Situation 2: I have an item X and I post that the lowest price. One day later, there are other post that even lower than me. They undercut me. That is fair in my point of view. However, the outcome is I cannot sell mine. I stand to lose AD for posting fee.
Situation 3: if you don't have enough AD upfront, you cannot even post. Actually, you can. You need to post the minimum and let people bid on your item.
Posting fee is the tool the big guy used to kill competitor. They can absorb the posting fee lose but the little guy cannot afford to. This was what happened BEFORE VIP no posting fee was introduced. If you think VIP no posting fee gives the big guy advantage, I don't agree. With the posting fee, little guy will be wiped out. I saw that in that era.
With no posting fee, the worst the big guy can do to you is to make you fail to sell. With posting fee, the big buy can make you lose AD for every posting. i.e. they can do real damage to you.
With VIP no posting fee, at least the little guy can have a chance.
I don't mind keeping posting fee if the nature of posting fee is changed.
Right now, if the item is sold, you get your AD back. You receive an email. I suggest if the item is returned for failure to sell, you also get your AD back. You receive an email. If you de-list it, you won't get your AD back. You don't receive an email.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
I don't like posting fee. Hence, I get the VIP to avoid that.
It is not about I want to undercut. It is about I don't want to pay the cost of not able to sell an item. That will limit posting item that are rare and unpopular.
[...]
Posting fee is the tool the big guy used to kill competitor. They can absorb the posting fee lose but the little guy cannot afford to. This was what happened BEFORE VIP no posting fee was introduced. If you think VIP no posting fee gives the big guy advantage, I don't agree. With the posting fee, little guy will be wiped out. I saw that in that era.
With no posting fee, the worst the big guy can do to you is to make you fail to sell. With posting fee, the big buy can make you lose AD for every posting. i.e. they can do real damage to you.
With VIP no posting fee, at least the little guy can have a chance.
I don't mind keeping posting fee if the nature of posting fee is changed.
Right now, if the item is sold, you get your AD back. You receive an email. I suggest if the item is returned for failure to sell, you also get your AD back. You receive an email. If you de-list it, you won't get your AD back. You don't receive an email.
I fully agree.
The posting fee is not only favors the "big guy" over the "little guy".
It also makes posting rare and expensive items a high risk business. Fact is, that even now (without posting fee for VIP) it can take several attempts to sell a rare item, even when I post this item at the lowest price.
In the worst of all cases, people would stop to sell rare items. Cryptic would loose money (from the people that buy ZEN, convert to AD via ZAX and buy the rare item from the AH) In a more favorable scenario the prices of many rare item would plummet significantly. Again, Cryptic would loose money (less ZEN sold and converted to AD)
I cannot see why this would be in the interest of a company that makes money, but of course there are many factors involved, so its difficult to assess the overall effect (from the company's point of view).
EDIT: If the real concern is undercutting via de-listing/re-listing, an efficient way to stop this "problem" would be what @plasticbat proposed, or (even better) - a free (EDIT: fee) for de-listing only
1) Access to Quick keys for travel/bank/vendor/mail
2) Eliminate VIP ranks.
3) VIP gives 5% extra Zen on all purchases.
LOADOUTS: Give EVERYONE ability to change loadouts at all times (even combat) so long as Paragon is not switched. Allow characters to only change Paragons at campfires. Right now players (within their paragon) can swap skills and equipment manually during combat and most players do... but it is a huge hassle. Please help automate this so players can focus on strategy and game play instead of how fast they can click menus and slide skills.
I don't like posting fee. Hence, I get the VIP to avoid that.
It is not about I want to undercut. It is about I don't want to pay the cost of not able to sell an item. That will limit posting item that are rare and unpopular.
[...]
Posting fee is the tool the big guy used to kill competitor. They can absorb the posting fee lose but the little guy cannot afford to. This was what happened BEFORE VIP no posting fee was introduced. If you think VIP no posting fee gives the big guy advantage, I don't agree. With the posting fee, little guy will be wiped out. I saw that in that era.
With no posting fee, the worst the big guy can do to you is to make you fail to sell. With posting fee, the big buy can make you lose AD for every posting. i.e. they can do real damage to you.
With VIP no posting fee, at least the little guy can have a chance.
I don't mind keeping posting fee if the nature of posting fee is changed.
Right now, if the item is sold, you get your AD back. You receive an email. I suggest if the item is returned for failure to sell, you also get your AD back. You receive an email. If you de-list it, you won't get your AD back. You don't receive an email.
I fully agree.
The posting fee is not only favors the "big guy" over the "little guy".
It also makes posting rare and expensive items a high risk business. Fact is, that even now (without posting fee for VIP) it can take several attempts to sell a rare item, even when I post this item at the lowest price.
In the worst of all cases, people would stop to sell rare items. Cryptic would loose money (from the people that buy ZEN, convert to AD via ZAX and buy the rare item from the AH) In a more favorable scenario the prices of many rare item would plummet significantly. Again, Cryptic would loose money (less ZEN sold and converted to AD)
I cannot see why this would be in the interest of a company that makes money, but of course there are many factors involved, so its difficult to assess the overall effect (from the company's point of view).
EDIT: If the real concern is undercutting via de-listing/re-listing, an efficient way to stop this "problem" would be what @plasticbat proposed, or (even better) - a free (EDIT: fee) for de-listing only
a delisting fee would be just as crippling as a posting fee for people trying to sell rare items. the big playrs generally have multiples as well as multiple accounts. your things would still forever hang there undercut not selling. and there would be absolutely NOTHING you could do about it without devaluing your item even more.
there is absolutely nothing wrong with undercuts. it's healthy for the economy. the real reason people get upset is because OMG I want it to be super expensive. the supply and demand were there at those super expensive prices both the undercut and the original price are going to sell. I remember when ues first hit the scene. I always just let the undercutters undercut because within half an hour they'd always buy it out up to me. if the supply and demand isn't there undercutting sometimes helps find that price point at which there are buyers. right now the system is fine other than being unequal for people without vip. making it equal makes the trade part all fair imo.
as far as the bullying goes. that happens everywhere in the game. not just the ah. Anywhere you have people and you have communication, you're going to get bullies. they should be reported for bullying.
the the ah should not be altered because of them. also sometimes people take threats where there are none. I've emailed ppl on a one or two occasions in what I thought was a friendly manner. where they undercut me big on something that was selling regularly at the pricepoint I was at. I was honestly trying to help them. If I did it, it was to people I recognized, that I was trying to help make more ad. I found out later they took it as an angry threat. I was like what? I know some people do do it out of threat or mean but I know for a fact I wasn't. so I can say factually not all of it is meant to be bullying. (and no I did not engage in undercutting wars with those people either. I either left my item wehre it was because it would come back to that and I wasn't going to lose 2 mil because they went way under me or I just delisted it for awhile) there was a case on xbox recently where a certain person who was in the first completion group was price fixing with threats. apparently that went south it was really fun to watch that fall out. I scored some equipment cheap from that fall out. as far as the people in that whole shebang clustermuck, I don't think there were ANY winners other than the buyers. oh wait. they still made millions off stuff they got as free drops.. right...
please for the sake of selune don't touch the ah other than to remove posting fees. it's fun. it works (more or less) and people can still make ad off it.
there is absolutely nothing wrong with undercuts. it's healthy for the economy. [...] if the supply and demand isn't there undercutting sometimes helps find that price point at which there are buyers.
Of course, a game economy is not a free market economy (more a monopoly) and it might not be in the interest of the company that runs the game, that the prices are low: low AH prices, less ZEN sold.
right now the system is fine other than being unequal for people without vip. making it equal makes the trade part all fair imo.
Taken all the arguments into account, I think I personally would prefer this solution as well (no posting fee for everyone). Keeps things simple, predictable and less risk for unwanted side-effects.
On the other hands, the original concern was undercutting (for me its not a concern, but for other players), and if Cryptic thinks it is a good idea to address this concern, more "complicated" measures (with higher risk for unwanted side-effects) might be "necessary".
I've been playing for ~14 months and have a rank 10 VIP that is currently lapsed, so I've been back to pleb status for a month after a brief hiatus from the game. I'm an Officer in my active and growing guild and main Warlock (sigh).
The rate of free keys We currently grant a key a day, which is 30 a month. We want to preserve the value of VIP, so if lockbox odds are improved by 2x or even 3x, how would you view altering the rate of free keys to keep a similar value?
As many others have posted, lowering the rate of keys given is a lowering of value. Your statement assumes the only value for opening a lockbox is the legendary mount. After my 10 months of VIP, I still don't have a legendary mount, but I feel that I have attained value for my keys. I valued the other things that dropped. If I had less of them, I would be gaining less value.
Alternates to keys How would you feel about getting a currency with VIP that allowed you to get items other than keys from your daily login? Would you choose to get wards, enchanting stones, or other valuable items instead of keys if you had that option?
This is an interesting notion. In the current system, we still have some method of tailoring our rewards. I chose to buy from the AH and open the lockbox from Ravenloft for the chance at the Swarm and the Mist, but also because the other rewards, i.e. companion token packs, voucher packs, etc. were all things I could use to reach my goals. There is already a VIP currency. It's called Trade Bars. Also, there is Zen. Currently, people are using Zen to either purchase a la carte items, or the bundle listed as VIP. Adding another currency seems useless. If you want less chance involved, just use the Trade Bar system already in place.
If this concern is wholly surrounding how to control the Legendary Mount economy, there are several options other than manipulating chance. Put them in the Trade Bar store. Give VIPs an exact amount of Trade Bars per day and let them spend them how they will. They can choose to save up for that Legendary Mount, or get Coal Wards, Enchantments, etc. Or just put Legendary Mounts on the Zen Market. Those willing to pay cash for Zen can get it, those wanting to free to play can save up and buy it on the AH or through the ZAX. Either of these options would allow you to publicly fix the pricing of Legendary Mounts, rather than having the price you set exist deeply in the random chances of the lockbox code. If you are wanting to move away from the Lockbox Economy, use the Trade Bars and Zen Market, the tools already in place, to accomplish the task.
After thinking it through, removing random chance from the VIP rewards sounds great to me. What I do not see is the need to add another currency to the game. Just use Trade Bars.
Ranks How would you feel about the removal of ranks on VIP, granting full benefits of VIP 12 while active? What do you value about ranks?
I like that the current system rewards those who either stick with it over time or who buy a big chunk up front. For me, I dipped my toes in with one month, wanting to support the game and try it out. I then got the 3 months through Prime, then purchased 6 months. I like the current model of the slow build. I think it's rewarding and beneficial for the game.
Current Benefits Which of the current benefits of VIP do you value and why?
The QoL benefits are the first thing. Signpost, vendors, and once I get 12, the mailbox. The time saved there is great. I also like how a VIP can choose to let someone else use them. It's a great way to share and build community (and get them wanting their own). Something I have started to miss more are the Trade Bars. I have used them to get Companions and other things, but am running low on what I had stocked up. I have also missed opening the Lockboxes, but mostly for the Companion Token packs I was getting along with other stuff, not for the pie in the sky chance of getting a Legendary.
New Benefits What would you like to see added in terms of benefits?
Changing loadouts away from fires sounds great. I'm all in for more QoL upgrades.
Maybe a constant Zen discount rather than having to rely on the coupons to drop?
The HP bonus sounds iffy. Some people spend a lot of time getting their stats, HP included just where they want them. As someone who has successfully Warlock healed through LoMM, giving everyone an extra 5% health for Acturia sounds terrible (Although yes please for the Worm).
Auction House Having one group able to list an item, de-list, and re-list again at no cost/penalty to undercut is not healthy for the Auction House and we’d like that to be a better experience for everyone. What are your thoughts in regard to this statement?
As someone who is in the midst of upgrading Mastercrafting, I've been spending more time on the AH, both as a buyer and seller. I agree with some of the other comments that the no listing fee can I think have more harm from those trying to price fix a market than for the undercutting. Let the market be the free market. But, I think keeping the (or a reduced) listing fee in place for VIP but having the benefit of a reduced AH cut would work great.
Thank you for the hours of entertainment I've received from this game and the opportunity to form friendships with my guildies.
there is absolutely nothing wrong with undercuts. it's healthy for the economy. [...] if the supply and demand isn't there undercutting sometimes helps find that price point at which there are buyers.
Of course, a game economy is not a free market economy (more a monopoly) and it might not be in the interest of the company that runs the game, that the prices are low: low AH prices, less ZEN sold.
right now the system is fine other than being unequal for people without vip. making it equal makes the trade part all fair imo.
Taken all the arguments into account, I think I personally would prefer this solution as well (no posting fee for everyone). Keeps things simple, predictable and less risk for unwanted side-effects.
On the other hands, the original concern was undercutting (for me its not a concern, but for other players), and if Cryptic thinks it is a good idea to address this concern, more "complicated" measures (with higher risk for unwanted side-effects) might be "necessary".
lower prices is still not "low prices" things are still expensive on rarer items. they just aren't sky high expensive. some people still have a hard time making ad or just would rather buy it than farm it. it isn't going to touch their zen what happens there. all of the suggestions I've seen about changing the ah would make things worse not better and in a way where I think the newer players are probably going to walk away to a friendlier game than stay and give them money. what needs to change first and foremost is explaining things to the new player as to how it works. when I started I remember it took over a year before I figured out how the auction house works. and IRL I'm a antiques expert. I've been to a billion auctions. I know the tactics. I know how it works but how the actual tool worked? omg it was an barbaric monstrosity of a nightmare to operate. the search the categories that make no sense. having things in multiple categories. even now mastercrafting mats are in misc and professions and it's a tossup as to what is where. there are enchantments in the mounts category. there is no over all search you can do to transcend the categories. I can't remember where I got hung up on but when i tried to search I couldn't find anything and i think I couldn't figure out how to give it ad either. it was just a nightmare. and posting.. nuh huh. that fee.. could not afford... this game just needs a better tutorial period. it needs one on what stats are, how they work, how to upgrade your toon, how to use the ah how to use the exchange. imo they should get rid of the opening levels all together and just do a series of quests teaching these things and make them repeatable. the ah really does need to be made more user friendly but to me it looks like it probably requires it's own mod. lol
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plasticbatMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 12,403Arc User
lower prices is still not "low prices" things are still expensive on rarer items. they just aren't sky high expensive. some people still have a hard time making ad or just would rather buy it than farm it. it isn't going to touch their zen what happens there. all of the suggestions I've seen about changing the ah would make things worse not better and in a way where I think the newer players are probably going to walk away to a friendlier game than stay and give them money. what needs to change first and foremost is explaining things to the new player as to how it works. when I started I remember it took over a year before I figured out how the auction house works. and IRL I'm a antiques expert. I've been to a billion auctions. I know the tactics. I know how it works but how the actual tool worked? omg it was an barbaric monstrosity of a nightmare to operate. the search the categories that make no sense. having things in multiple categories. even now mastercrafting mats are in misc and professions and it's a tossup as to what is where. there are enchantments in the mounts category. there is no over all search you can do to transcend the categories. I can't remember where I got hung up on but when i tried to search I couldn't find anything and i think I couldn't figure out how to give it ad either. it was just a nightmare. and posting.. nuh huh. that fee.. could not afford... this game just needs a better tutorial period. it needs one on what stats are, how they work, how to upgrade your toon, how to use the ah how to use the exchange. imo they should get rid of the opening levels all together and just do a series of quests teaching these things and make them repeatable. the ah really does need to be made more user friendly but to me it looks like it probably requires it's own mod. lol
I assume console is different (I think you play in console). For me, in PC, the AH is pretty straight forward. It may not be the best interface and has its flaws but overall, I could manage to use from day 1.
*** The game can read your mind. If you want it, you won't get it. If you don't expect to get it, you will. ***
lower prices is still not "low prices" things are still expensive on rarer items. they just aren't sky high expensive. some people still have a hard time making ad or just would rather buy it than farm it. it isn't going to touch their zen what happens there. all of the suggestions I've seen about changing the ah would make things worse not better and in a way where I think the newer players are probably going to walk away to a friendlier game than stay and give them money. what needs to change first and foremost is explaining things to the new player as to how it works. when I started I remember it took over a year before I figured out how the auction house works. and IRL I'm a antiques expert. I've been to a billion auctions. I know the tactics. I know how it works but how the actual tool worked? omg it was an barbaric monstrosity of a nightmare to operate. the search the categories that make no sense. having things in multiple categories. even now mastercrafting mats are in misc and professions and it's a tossup as to what is where. there are enchantments in the mounts category. there is no over all search you can do to transcend the categories. I can't remember where I got hung up on but when i tried to search I couldn't find anything and i think I couldn't figure out how to give it ad either. it was just a nightmare. and posting.. nuh huh. that fee.. could not afford... this game just needs a better tutorial period. it needs one on what stats are, how they work, how to upgrade your toon, how to use the ah how to use the exchange. imo they should get rid of the opening levels all together and just do a series of quests teaching these things and make them repeatable. the ah really does need to be made more user friendly but to me it looks like it probably requires it's own mod. lol
I assume console is different (I think you play in console). For me, in PC, the AH is pretty straight forward. It may not be the best interface and has its flaws but overall, I could manage to use from day 1.
pc is a little more friendly than console with the ah imo. the only way to know if it was more noob friendly as far as i was concerned would be to go back in time and see if I could figure it out lol. a lot of things were overwhelming to me back then though. this was my first mmo and nothing made a ton of sense.
Thanks all for your contributions. This has been a impassioned topic with some really thoughtful, valuable, and insightful posts. I won't be doing a proposal on this topic. This CDPs purpose was to learn community thoughts, ideas and opinion. I/we will be utilizing what we have learned moving forward.
Our next CDP is Rewards and it will start on Monday.
Comments
I enjoyed your post, wanted to add just a bit of background on my opinion (honestly didn't expect anyone to read and discuss).
I'm actually a seller, been selling for years. Used to sell refinement back in the day, buy Zen when price was low, sell when high, purchase whatever was on a discount, sit on it for 3-9 months and sell at opportune times. Farm content for drops to sell. Been doing it long enough to have a really good dataset (anecdotal, I don't spreadsheet or anything but rough based on percentage increases in account wealth over time). As crazy as it sounds, lower AH prices and under cutters are generally better for sellers, because we can turn a profit on volume and timing. This doesn't come cheap by the by, I have 16 characters with full runic bags and half of them have full bank slots unlocked just to hold the items. I have no problem with either, and in fact recognize that there is only an opportunity to make money in game when items are moving - which by and large they aren't outside of a few niches. People posting for high prices and holding out for them are usually posting to create the illusion of value, sometimes to scam other players for trades that aren't in their favor so they can sell the gains from the trade - but thats another topic.
What I think is really meant by the undercutting comment from the CM is that there is, at least on Xbox, a relatively small number of individuals and groups who attempt to corner the market on items, a popular example is Mastercraft gear. I myself have received a few messages over time from players warning me that I shouldn't post certain items (that flaming blue rage drake mount for instance), or shouldn't post those items for so cheap, and that they would run me into the ground and out of business if I continued. Ultimately I've held my own against some of them long enough to cash out of that market, but many don't. And that is a huge problem, and it largely stems from them not having to pay to post and repost these items. This kind of behavior needs to be stopped, it is not good for anyone in the game seller or buyer. Most effective way I can see of making that happen is to charge people to post items, and only return that money if the item sells at the listed price. I fully believe the average player, and the game market as a whole, will re-adapt to that charge, and while it may take a couple of months for people to get used to it and new market prices to stabilize, I think it will overall benefit everyone involved who does not participate in that sort of predation.
Hope that makes sense.
Go to Youtube search "Rainer Neverwinter" and prepare to learn a lot.
Every time a new lock box appears, Rainer opens 10'000 of them on the preview server and collates the results. This gives a pretty effective gauge for the chances of various drop rates.
As @firesidecat says, over the many times Rainer has done this, the typical number of Legendary Mounts he gets is in the 0.16-0.17 range. He also worked out that (taking into account Tarmalune Trade Bar Jackpots) the average number of TTBs that drops from a single lock box is almost exactly 8. (But that's the average, because of the jackpots, the typical drop is lower.)
Let's say Cryptic triple the chances of a lock box to 0.5 percent... the typical one a day Joe is still unlikely to see much action. You will still need to be very lucky to hit a 1:200 chance which is down from a 1:600 chance.
BUT... those guys who open hundreds of lock boxes every week/month are going to get three times as many legendary mounts.
And does anyone think because their supply just tripled they will cut their AH value to 1/3?
(P.S. If you DO believe this, then I have a bag of magic beans that I would like to sell to you. Throw them on the ground before you go to bed and a beanstalk will grow in the night that leads to a giant's castle in the clouds where all manner of riches await the eager hero...)
Who does a raise in the "Chase Item" odds benefit?
It's not the little guy, that's for sure.
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I've played for slightly over a year. I'm VIP 12 with 185 days left, and frequently make purchases with cash. I have 17 characters (many of them level 80), run 17 workshops, and am a Senior Officer in a Helm Guild. I'm mostly a solo player that is heavily invested in the narrative, escapist D&D world, and visuals. I found NW through a Humble Bundle promotion for the Ravenloft expansion. I often participate in promo stuff (like the current Alienware and Dragon+). My main has a high enough gear score to access everything, and my youngest characters have whatever low stuff drops. I like to play a little everyday, but consider myself a casual player with pretty low skill.
My top 3 VIP experiences and hopes:
1. Don't take any benefits away, please. I'm honestly happy with it now, even if nothing changed. We recommend VIP to new guild members every day.
2. I'd love loyalty perks for those of us that keep VIP active without lapse, and I'm highly motivated by them.
3. I'd love to see the Tarmalune Trade Bar store polished and updated. It would make opening a lockbox more exciting, because the trade bars would be super meaningful rewards again.
Thanks!
For consoles, games are required to publish loot box odds by the end of the year. WotC has committed to this. Senate bill is irrelevant.
The longevity or even viability of the game depends on its ability to justify the company's investment in it. Sometimes, it's not about money but about tying up resources, develooers, etc. This game is built using infra that is shared across a number of games. Therefore, some changes are done by a central group extrinsic to the game develooment and that means things need to be scoped and aligned within constraints that could be less than optimal for the game release cycle. That's just how the dev lifecycle goes.
Having thought about the VIP question some more, I think a new VIP+ offering as someone suggested earlier or some sort of perks packs store is a good way forward. This does not adversely affect the existing model and is fair to everyone at launch.
I think posting fees on the AH are an unnecessary nuisance that just inflates prices. This has nothing to do with VIP. It should go away. The AH deserves a cdp in its own right, tbh. Aggressive sellers exist and will continue to exist. They are a persona that should be researched and dealt with. I don't understand what drives such people anymore than I understand why some people choose to spend their time trolling others in the forum. The exception to this is the odd seller that makes real world cash transactions for high value trade items. Again, not in scope. Changing vip perks will have zero effect on crooked behaviors.
None of us work for Cryptic or PWE or are privy to their actual development cycle or methodology. Saying they should hire an analyst is not only presumtuous, it is silly. They hired Chris. I would expect him to have the experience and business acumen to do his job. Regardless, we don't know what kind of business constraints he/they deal with. I once worked in a group within a large company where any development done had to pay for itself right out the door. Meaning you had to sell it bwfore you wrote even one line of code. Terrible experience for employees but the financial suits were happy.
I think Chris and others have mentioned waiting on technical debt a few times and we have heard in the past that mods are built using inhouse software that cuts down on the need for actual programers. It's clear the NW team are working within costraints and can't always get what they want when they want it. From this perspective, I'm ok with mod19 being pushed to EoY and having incremental updates of which VIP might be a necessary first step in order to get the money to do the necessary next steps. But this brings me back to the beginning...that I hope to see new stuff introduced. Stuff that is so desirable to me that I'd be willing to spend money, real money, on it.
(1) VIP should stand for Quality-of-Life, do not add things that F2P-players cannot overcome by putting in time ('grinding'). (You need both type of players, under this model, to have a successful game.) - Things like Invoking anywhere, Travel Post, Portable Mailbox, Portable Vendor, Portable (guild) bank, ... All these things are very good to have, but not necessary... there are (time-consuming) alternatives for F2P-players. (Though I'm on the fence about Invoking as a mechanism... see (2))
(2) VIP should not offer extra rewards for extra character slots. (Reroll tokens, invoking for wards/coals/vouchers...). Alts should be made to experience the game from another point of view : class/profession/... Even if the playtime on it is used to fuel other character(s), that's still fine. (As it stands now though this game is very alt unfriendly... Truly fleshing out a character is so much work, that I just can't commit myself to really trying an alt... even though I really, really, really want to see/experience the other classes.)
(3) VIP Loyalty Program : Reading through all the posts, it is clear that people enjoy/expect this and done right this effectively replaces the VIP rank/benefits system.
I would like to see this two-fold :
A. Cosmetic 'Upgrades' : Titles, transmutes, ... to show off your 'veteran' status. (VIP rank to display could be one of them
B. VIP Currency : The 'tradebar' store, where players can choose how they want their loyalty to be rewarded. (Usefull items, that lessen the grind for the VIP and yes, keys... as it stands you are doomed to offer those, making sure people can at the very least get the same bang for their buck key-wise. Other items could be whatever grind items are put into the game : wards, coals, MoPs, Enchanting Stones, ... things like companions/(legendary) mounts are fine too as long as they don't feature unique powers/benefits that cannot be obtained otherwise. (Unique-to-VIP kick-HAMSTER looks though are exactly what you'd expect here !)
Also please stop gating the rewards behind daily account/character logins... Just hand it out, as an automatic add to your account/character. (It was bought and people should not be punished for RL.) (Also solves the problem of people having bought in for years to come... They get immediate benefit and can buy the high-end items from the store immediately and the newer players can either slowly buy VIP and get there too or buy-in for multiple months/years too. (Cost/Benefit up to the buyer...))
1.) do not remove or adjust down any current benefits (you can get rid of Ranks)
2.) claim up to 7 Days worth of missed VIP rewards
3.) Super Shop that uses all currency
Martin ConDion PVE only Ranger
Guild Founder: -HunterS-
So if they improved the loot given by lockboxes as-is, without adjusting the influx of keys, they would just be significantly pulling down the value of whatever it is they add and we would be back at square one.
Think on it this way, if from tomorrow on every single lockbox dropped a Enchanting Stone, Rank 5 that would be great, suddenly the value of every single dropbox you open would skyrocket for about.. five minutes, before market prices crash and Enchanting Stones, Rank 5 have roughly the same value as a peridot.
Never noticed this on PC (EDIT: the bullying), but then I am more a buyer than a seller.
The aim of my post was not to judge what is right or wrong.
It might have come over that way (in hindsight I can see that my wording was not the best).
Rather I wanted to point out that most of us are not always completely open with what we really want and what our "true motives" are.
In order to make "good decisions" (from the viewpoint of the *entire* player base and from the viewpoint of increasing revenue in order to keep the game running) it is important for the EP and his team to know what the true motives are and how they affect the different archetypes of players.
For instance, if you take my last example ("make low tier dungeons more challenging"), one needs to know that there is
- one group of players (near-bis players, that proposed this in MOD 16 preview),
- that almost never run the low tier dungeons,
- and therefore are not really affected in a positive or negative way by their own proposal.
But there is also a large group of players (new and mid-level players, far less vocal on the forums),
- who's actual gameplay has been rather negatively affected by Cryptic listening to the proposal.
As a consequence of the decisions taken (including the bad implementation of scaling) the low tier dungeons (MC, eToS, VT, eLoL) are still more difficult (for new and mid-level players) than the more advanced ones (such as CN)
This is not just a theoretical example, it actually happened in MOD 16.
Again, my point is not to judge whether the decision(s) taken were "better" or "worse" for the long term health of the game.
This is Cryptic's job and responsibility (and they are also the most affected, because their jobs depend on it).
But it seems rather obvious to me, that Cryptic was not really aware of the conflicting interests of the two aforementioned groups of players. Generally I think it is quite risky to implement changes, that do not really affect the gameplay and enjoyment of the group that proposes the changes, but have a large negative effect on the group who's gameplay is directly affected.
Regarding the posting fee, its not a big issue for me either way.
Sometimes I sell stuff, there I am happy that I "only" loose 10% instead of 12%, in case that a rare and expensive item does not sell.
I very rarely undercut and almost never remove my AH postings prematurely (just don't enjoy watching the market continuously)
So undercutting is nothing I am really concerned about, neither as seller or as buyer.
Cornering the market - yes I see it occasionally on PC: I just take a "one week leave from AH" and usually the problem is gone.
In any, AH and ZAX merits its own CDP.
The same is true for scaling and the difficulty / reward ratio (which is quite off in the low tier dungeons).
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
It is not about I want to undercut. It is about I don't want to pay the cost of not able to sell an item.
That will limit posting item that are rare and unpopular.
Before the existence of VIP no posting fee:
Situation 1: I have an item X and it is a rare (say) fashion item. I post that for amount $X, the lowest price in AH. It was not sold after 5 days mainly because nobody looks for it. I lose AD. That means I should not even try to post anything rare and unpopular. That will limit the variety of AH.
Situation 2: I have an item X and I post that the lowest price. One day later, there are other post that even lower than me. They undercut me. That is fair in my point of view. However, the outcome is I cannot sell mine. I stand to lose AD for posting fee.
Situation 3: if you don't have enough AD upfront, you cannot even post. Actually, you can. You need to post the minimum and let people bid on your item.
Posting fee is the tool the big guy used to kill competitor. They can absorb the posting fee lose but the little guy cannot afford to. This was what happened BEFORE VIP no posting fee was introduced. If you think VIP no posting fee gives the big guy advantage, I don't agree. With the posting fee, little guy will be wiped out. I saw that in that era.
With no posting fee, the worst the big guy can do to you is to make you fail to sell.
With posting fee, the big buy can make you lose AD for every posting. i.e. they can do real damage to you.
With VIP no posting fee, at least the little guy can have a chance.
I don't mind keeping posting fee if the nature of posting fee is changed.
Right now, if the item is sold, you get your AD back. You receive an email.
I suggest if the item is returned for failure to sell, you also get your AD back. You receive an email.
If you de-list it, you won't get your AD back. You don't receive an email.
That is the only reason i get vip, if i dont get 30key im not gonna take any vip again
The posting fee is not only favors the "big guy" over the "little guy".
It also makes posting rare and expensive items a high risk business.
Fact is, that even now (without posting fee for VIP) it can take several attempts to sell a rare item, even when I post this item at the lowest price.
In the worst of all cases, people would stop to sell rare items.
Cryptic would loose money (from the people that buy ZEN, convert to AD via ZAX and buy the rare item from the AH)
In a more favorable scenario the prices of many rare item would plummet significantly.
Again, Cryptic would loose money (less ZEN sold and converted to AD)
I cannot see why this would be in the interest of a company that makes money, but of course there are many factors involved, so its difficult to assess the overall effect (from the company's point of view).
EDIT: If the real concern is undercutting via de-listing/re-listing, an efficient way to stop this "problem" would be what @plasticbat proposed, or (even better)
- a free (EDIT: fee) for de-listing only
1) Access to Quick keys for travel/bank/vendor/mail
2) Eliminate VIP ranks.
3) VIP gives 5% extra Zen on all purchases.
LOADOUTS: Give EVERYONE ability to change loadouts at all times (even combat) so long as Paragon is not switched. Allow characters to only change Paragons at campfires. Right now players (within their paragon) can swap skills and equipment manually during combat and most players do... but it is a huge hassle. Please help automate this so players can focus on strategy and game play instead of how fast they can click menus and slide skills.
there is absolutely nothing wrong with undercuts. it's healthy for the economy. the real reason people get upset is because OMG I want it to be super expensive. the supply and demand were there at those super expensive prices both the undercut and the original price are going to sell. I remember when ues first hit the scene. I always just let the undercutters undercut because within half an hour they'd always buy it out up to me. if the supply and demand isn't there undercutting sometimes helps find that price point at which there are buyers. right now the system is fine other than being unequal for people without vip. making it equal makes the trade part all fair imo.
as far as the bullying goes. that happens everywhere in the game. not just the ah. Anywhere you have people and you have communication, you're going to get bullies. they should be reported for bullying.
the the ah should not be altered because of them. also sometimes people take threats where there are none. I've emailed ppl on a one or two occasions in what I thought was a friendly manner. where they undercut me big on something that was selling regularly at the pricepoint I was at. I was honestly trying to help them. If I did it, it was to people I recognized, that I was trying to help make more ad. I found out later they took it as an angry threat. I was like what? I know some people do do it out of threat or mean but I know for a fact I wasn't. so I can say factually not all of it is meant to be bullying. (and no I did not engage in undercutting wars with those people either. I either left my item wehre it was because it would come back to that and I wasn't going to lose 2 mil because they went way under me or I just delisted it for awhile) there was a case on xbox recently where a certain person who was in the first completion group was price fixing with threats. apparently that went south it was really fun to watch that fall out. I scored some equipment cheap from that fall out. as far as the people in that whole shebang clustermuck, I don't think there were ANY winners other than the buyers. oh wait. they still made millions off stuff they got as free drops.. right...
please for the sake of selune don't touch the ah other than to remove posting fees. it's fun. it works (more or less) and people can still make ad off it.
free market economy -> competion -> competion undercuts -> keeps prices and revenue reasonably low
Of course, a game economy is not a free market economy (more a monopoly) and it might not be in the interest of the company that runs the game, that the prices are low: low AH prices, less ZEN sold.
Taken all the arguments into account, I think I personally would prefer this solution as well (no posting fee for everyone).
Keeps things simple, predictable and less risk for unwanted side-effects.
On the other hands, the original concern was undercutting (for me its not a concern, but for other players), and if Cryptic thinks it is a good idea to address this concern, more "complicated" measures (with higher risk for unwanted side-effects) might be "necessary".
The rate of free keys
We currently grant a key a day, which is 30 a month. We want to preserve the value of VIP, so if lockbox odds are improved by 2x or even 3x, how would you view altering the rate of free keys to keep a similar value?
As many others have posted, lowering the rate of keys given is a lowering of value. Your statement assumes the only value for opening a lockbox is the legendary mount. After my 10 months of VIP, I still don't have a legendary mount, but I feel that I have attained value for my keys. I valued the other things that dropped. If I had less of them, I would be gaining less value.
Alternates to keys
How would you feel about getting a currency with VIP that allowed you to get items other than keys from your daily login? Would you choose to get wards, enchanting stones, or other valuable items instead of keys if you had that option?
This is an interesting notion. In the current system, we still have some method of tailoring our rewards. I chose to buy from the AH and open the lockbox from Ravenloft for the chance at the Swarm and the Mist, but also because the other rewards, i.e. companion token packs, voucher packs, etc. were all things I could use to reach my goals. There is already a VIP currency. It's called Trade Bars. Also, there is Zen. Currently, people are using Zen to either purchase a la carte items, or the bundle listed as VIP. Adding another currency seems useless. If you want less chance involved, just use the Trade Bar system already in place.
If this concern is wholly surrounding how to control the Legendary Mount economy, there are several options other than manipulating chance. Put them in the Trade Bar store. Give VIPs an exact amount of Trade Bars per day and let them spend them how they will. They can choose to save up for that Legendary Mount, or get Coal Wards, Enchantments, etc. Or just put Legendary Mounts on the Zen Market. Those willing to pay cash for Zen can get it, those wanting to free to play can save up and buy it on the AH or through the ZAX. Either of these options would allow you to publicly fix the pricing of Legendary Mounts, rather than having the price you set exist deeply in the random chances of the lockbox code. If you are wanting to move away from the Lockbox Economy, use the Trade Bars and Zen Market, the tools already in place, to accomplish the task.
After thinking it through, removing random chance from the VIP rewards sounds great to me. What I do not see is the need to add another currency to the game. Just use Trade Bars.
Ranks
How would you feel about the removal of ranks on VIP, granting full benefits of VIP 12 while active? What do you value about ranks?
I like that the current system rewards those who either stick with it over time or who buy a big chunk up front. For me, I dipped my toes in with one month, wanting to support the game and try it out. I then got the 3 months through Prime, then purchased 6 months. I like the current model of the slow build. I think it's rewarding and beneficial for the game.
Current Benefits
Which of the current benefits of VIP do you value and why?
The QoL benefits are the first thing. Signpost, vendors, and once I get 12, the mailbox. The time saved there is great. I also like how a VIP can choose to let someone else use them. It's a great way to share and build community (and get them wanting their own). Something I have started to miss more are the Trade Bars. I have used them to get Companions and other things, but am running low on what I had stocked up. I have also missed opening the Lockboxes, but mostly for the Companion Token packs I was getting along with other stuff, not for the pie in the sky chance of getting a Legendary.
New Benefits
What would you like to see added in terms of benefits?
Changing loadouts away from fires sounds great. I'm all in for more QoL upgrades.
Maybe a constant Zen discount rather than having to rely on the coupons to drop?
The HP bonus sounds iffy. Some people spend a lot of time getting their stats, HP included just where they want them. As someone who has successfully Warlock healed through LoMM, giving everyone an extra 5% health for Acturia sounds terrible (Although yes please for the Worm).
Auction House
Having one group able to list an item, de-list, and re-list again at no cost/penalty to undercut is not healthy for the Auction House and we’d like that to be a better experience for everyone. What are your thoughts in regard to this statement?
As someone who is in the midst of upgrading Mastercrafting, I've been spending more time on the AH, both as a buyer and seller. I agree with some of the other comments that the no listing fee can I think have more harm from those trying to price fix a market than for the undercutting. Let the market be the free market. But, I think keeping the (or a reduced) listing fee in place for VIP but having the benefit of a reduced AH cut would work great.
Thank you for the hours of entertainment I've received from this game and the opportunity to form friendships with my guildies.
Our next CDP is Rewards and it will start on Monday.
Thanks
Chris