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Official M16: Stats and Mechanics

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  • rickcase276rickcase276 Posts: 1,249Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    What is odd, a few cleric powers seem to be doing more damage for me after this week's patch than before it. Before the patch I was not able to one-shot elite mobs in master expeditions (no runes) with Forgemaster's Flame, after the patch I was regularly doing it. Now daunting light still seemed to be hitting for about the same amount of damage as before, so maybe it wasn't reduced in encounter damage, or maybe it was just the reduction of enemy hp that is the reason, I do not know.
  • dressrobadressroba Posts: 70Member Arc User

    What is odd, a few cleric powers seem to be doing more damage for me after this week's patch than before it. Before the patch I was not able to one-shot elite mobs in master expeditions (no runes) with Forgemaster's Flame, after the patch I was regularly doing it. Now daunting light still seemed to be hitting for about the same amount of damage as before, so maybe it wasn't reduced in encounter damage, or maybe it was just the reduction of enemy hp that is the reason, I do not know.

    that's class feedback
  • darkheart#6758 darkheart Posts: 274Member Arc User
    > @mebengalsfan#9264 said:
    > they are. but it's still indicative imo. solo is one thing group content is another. they have all the tools to be bis to test things out on test but i'm not sure how many people are running content as actual average players would play. r10's and partially leveled sets. with the 500/1 it was easy to get the stats you needed with gear that dropped and what not. imo it was totally doable to do anything as a random. (and that is what I think they were going for) this rebalance has made it more difficult to get the stats to do basic stuff unless you're a try hard.
    >
    > I think the end game players will be ok. they always are. but the other 95% are going to be struggling with this. imo they should have waited to do the stats 1000/1 and change the balance of the mobs til mod 17 and just given everyone a warning it was coming and focus on fixing the bugs for the next few weeks.
    >
    > just to be clear, my entire beef is with scaling combined with the stat changes. scaling is the issue here. nearly all of the content will be level 70 that we're running. and they're making it all very very hard now.
    >
    > I have been testing things “as is” from live, taking some advantage of preview, and minimal toons (incomplete campaigns, the gifted gear and few pets/mounts) just to get a range of experience with the changes.
    >
    > And yes the scaling down from 80 is terrible.
    >
    > It’s not that you are scaled down, it’s that your relative effectiveness is decreased when you are scaled down as well. So if you are doing ok, but not great against level 80 mobs, level 70 content will be hard or worse instead of staying “ok but not great”.
    >
    > Hopefully now that level 80 seems to be largely working they can go back and tweak the scaling so it works properly as well.
    >
    >
    > Remove scaling from zones. For dungeons let the players pick if they want to scale or not, like in mod 15. Forcing scaling is saying goodbye to many players. Players who worked on improving their character won't enjoy going back to a lower zone only to find out they are inferior now than even the first time they entered that zone. Scaling is going to hurt this game moreso than the devs probably realize.
    >
    > I play mmos to get powerful so if I go into a lower zone I can literally see my character become stronger.
    >
    > Of if the devs do scale things; scale our gear only to the highest allowed stats on that gear for that zone and leave everything else we have worked on as is; meaning if I go into a level 35 zone with my 19L il character my gear is scaled down but my enchantments are all at R14+.

    I agree with your comments. I think the Devs are in for a big surprise on how the scaling affects players, retentionx and queue times.

    I know my guild has already talked about giving up doing RIQ if you now have to take 20 minutes to run a dungeon we can now do in 6 to 8 minutes. If a RAQ is always going to take 30 minutes or more even with a 16k group or higher, wont be running those as well since the rewards aren't worth it.

    Then again that might be Devs plan to lower the amount of RAD being earned daily from riq and raq runs.
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Posts: 295Member Arc User


    they are. but it's still indicative imo. solo is one thing group content is another. they have all the tools to be bis to test things out on test but i'm not sure how many people are running content as actual average players would play. r10's and partially leveled sets. with the 500/1 it was easy to get the stats you needed with gear that dropped and what not. imo it was totally doable to do anything as a random. (and that is what I think they were going for) this rebalance has made it more difficult to get the stats to do basic stuff unless you're a try hard.

    I think the end game players will be ok. they always are. but the other 95% are going to be struggling with this. imo they should have waited to do the stats 1000/1 and change the balance of the mobs til mod 17 and just given everyone a warning it was coming and focus on fixing the bugs for the next few weeks.

    just to be clear, my entire beef is with scaling combined with the stat changes. scaling is the issue here. nearly all of the content will be level 70 that we're running. and they're making it all very very hard now.

    I have been testing things “as is” from live, taking some advantage of preview, and minimal toons (incomplete campaigns, the gifted gear and few pets/mounts) just to get a range of experience with the changes.

    And yes the scaling down from 80 is terrible.

    It’s not that you are scaled down, it’s that your relative effectiveness is decreased when you are scaled down as well. So if you are doing ok, but not great against level 80 mobs, level 70 content will be hard or worse instead of staying “ok but not great”.

    Hopefully now that level 80 seems to be largely working they can go back and tweak the scaling so it works properly as well.
    Remove scaling from zones. For dungeons let the players pick if they want to scale or not, like in mod 15. Forcing scaling is saying goodbye to many players. Players who worked on improving their character won't enjoy going back to a lower zone only to find out they are inferior now than even the first time they entered that zone. Scaling is going to hurt this game moreso than the devs probably realize.

    I play mmos to get powerful so if I go into a lower zone I can literally see my character become stronger.

    Of if the devs do scale things; scale our gear only to the highest allowed stats on that gear for that zone and leave everything else we have worked on as is; meaning if I go into a level 35 zone with my 19L il character my gear is scaled down but my enchantments are all at R14+.
    Or do the opposite because ranking enchantments up that far is suffering and you shouldn't have to be BiS to be strong in old content.
  • adders79#8251 adders79 Posts: 72Member Arc User
    Scaling will literally kill this game if it stays. I have a GF and SW on preview both at 20k+ all new gear, weapons, boons, etc. At level 80 I am pretty much where my stats need to be, but in level 70 zones I am way under. I soloed a high end in Barovia the one with vampires and hostages and my 100 magnitude at will was doing 700 damage to the vampires. I had to use 3 life scrolls to complete it. I can only imagine what newer players must think. Unstable events in the highest under mountain level are still impossible. encounters doing 1000 damage and dailies not moving health bars

    As a tank a lot or standard enemies in the level 70 dungeons rips straight through my shield and most my health bar. I can survive no problem in the new dungeon, which at the moment is the easiest content on preview. There is no way you have the time or resources to balance this scaling in time and really the only option is to remove it. Questing is a bore and dungeons are no fun whatsoever

    Also how hard it is too put patch notes up when you release a patch on preview. So much has changed, but without knowing what it is pretty difficult to test

  • santrusco#2331 santrusco Posts: 1Member Arc User
    Mortal combat is coming!!!!
    Why do not you make more cool raids ?, instead of annoying all the characters in the game that we have been struggling so long to build, and of course in relation to the legendary mounts ... we are many who have recently spent enough money to that magically, it vanishes ?? Do yourself and do us a favor and be a little more creative in the dungeons, especially in the raids! That baby smells bad and we all know it! We want long and difficult raids, involving 20 players, with labyrinths, tests, ... instead of clubs and collins with other states. I know it's just an opinion but luckily the world is not full of cowards ^ ^ By the way my main is a paladin and honestly ... this update seems inappropriate ... Of all the life the paladin gave moral to the party which I translate into power, movement and security. And dcs or thaos have always been expert healers and buffers, what are you going to do about it? If what you want is to transform the pve to pvp ... there are better games! in that case I will end up leaving the game. I refuse to have my paladin class taken away from me! I prefer to remember the game as it is now.
    I will not answer this message I just want to give my opinion, see you
  • khagarothkhagaroth Posts: 5Member Arc User
    The scaling is completely fscked. Lv 80 areas can be easily steamrolled without companions and potions, but once scaling comes into play the game becomes a frustrating nightmare. I really doubt you will be able (or rather willing) to fix it in time, so I fear we have another mod 6 in the making and the next three mods before us to wait for a half decent fix.
  • agodbeaagodbea Posts: 37Member Arc User
    A suggestion for the ability WISDOM have it decide how much max divinity you can have.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Posts: 3,166Member Arc User
    khagaroth said:

    The scaling is completely fscked. Lv 80 areas can be easily steamrolled without companions and potions, but once scaling comes into play the game becomes a frustrating nightmare. I really doubt you will be able (or rather willing) to fix it in time, so I fear we have another mod 6 in the making and the next three mods before us to wait for a half decent fix.

    It should only take one mod to fix, everything been simplified.
  • khagarothkhagaroth Posts: 5Member Arc User

    It should only take one mod to fix

    "Famous last words" ?
    ?
  • cdnbisoncdnbison Posts: 801Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    To avoid players feeling completely hamstrung when revisiting older content, would it be possible to set the scaling to the high end of a zones limits? i.e. if a zone is meant for level 50 characters, scaling would scale players to ~level 55.

    This will retain a modicum of challenge for players, while still allowing them to feel that they have well and truly mastered / moved beyond the content in question.
  • xtremozxtremoz Posts: 220Member Arc User
    edited April 2019
    I agree and have to, that the scaling down is not working! One thing I dont get is: why are dungeons staying lv70? If main objective now is to get lv 80 why are dungeon staying lv70? for what I see and from experience from last lv cap change no 1 will stay lv 70 for long so why keep dungeons lv70? just scale them to lv80 and set different rating on add/mobs. If new dungeon have 16k/50k rating make old lv70 dungeons lv80 and set rating lower like 10/30k for 14k ilv dungeons and 13/40k for higher .

    Playing a game where u are lv80 and 90% of the end game content is 70% is strange to say the least, and can not be called end game.

    Old area from campaigns forget the scaling there, in any case I am lock to x amount of day to do the campaign, doesn't matter if I can do may dailies in 5min or 15min, in the end i will need to do them each day for 4-5 weeks.
  • gripnir78gripnir78 Posts: 371Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    @asterdahl @noworries#8859 @mimicking#6533 I wonder if we do need scaling at all? I mean yeah it works all right now on live when below level 70. So why not to leave same mechanics there, AND push all campaigns to level 80?

    Just make a quest path for leveling ending on level 70 on Barovia to gain barovian gear and then open Yawning Portal to get to 80 -as easy as that.

    Do you really belive that leveling new player gona hold on level 70 just to try Dread Ring or SOMI before he gona hit level 80? Of course not....he will push to 80 asap its natural, and after that he will start to make a content.

    At the same moment you can push all campaign maps to level 80 and its related dungeons included.
    And those should be divided in easiest possible way - older campaigns lowest rating of mobs increasing further you go - so Dread Ring would be easier then Omu and Omu easier than Undermountain while still on level 80. That would create a natural demand to increase your toons to be able to make more content while you are already level 80

    Pretty much like it works now - yes, you are level 70 but your IL and statistics is what hold you from gettin to CR while you perform very good on lower dungeons.

    That way you avoid:
    - all scaling issues
    - all decresing value of hard earned enchantments and so on
    - keeping a players confidence - old content gona be easier like it should be
    - wont make 90% of content obsolete for end game players
  • adinosiiadinosii Posts: 3,945Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    I see a potential problem:

    A new player can get to level 70 really fast - in particular if he focuses just on what gives most XP, instead of going through all the quests. There is no reason why he could not go all the way to 80 - even without setting a foot in any of the campaigns.

    Then what?

    Sure he can go to Barovia and pick up the Vistani gear, or start the Undermountain quest chain and pick up the Undermountain gear, but such a player would be level 80 with a pretty minimal IL.

    The problem is - what if that player then attempts do do any of the level 70 content? Will he get scaled down so much that the content will effectively be impossible?
    Make NWO great again, please....
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Posts: 425Member Arc User
    edited April 2019
    I'm assuming the plan is to drop level scaling and go to IL scaling in the next week or weeks. I assume because IL scaling works better. The only problem is with figuring out how to handle Health and Power in such scaling. The big one is how to handle IL when it is over the average end content. Do you get scaled for empowering your character from 23,000 IL to 25,000 IL? I mean.. then whats the point in that increase?

    A flat proportional IL scaling is harsh and distatsteful, but balanced. If they implement a 'reward' for being over IL in an area, I dont want it to be a secret amount built into their new stat total. I think the best way to handle it is to create a "Heroic Bonus" stat. This stat will be a 'combined rating' bonus given for being 'over' the IL of an area. It will be some proportion of the true amount the player is over.


    For an example of a working system: https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1247050/truescale-system
    Post edited by zimxero#8085 on
  • gripnir78gripnir78 Posts: 371Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    edited April 2019
    adinosii said:

    I see a potential problem:

    A new player can get to level 70 really fast - in particular if he focuses just on what gives most XP, instead of going through all the quests. There is no reason why he could not go all the way to 80 - even without setting a foot in any of the campaigns.

    Then what?

    Sure he can go to Barovia and pick up the Vistani gear, or start the Undermountain quest chain and pick up the Undermountain gear, but such a player would be level 80 with a pretty minimal IL.

    The problem is - what if that player then attempts do do any of the level 70 content? Will he get scaled down so much that the content will effectively be impossible?

    As I said keep current scalling - via level but not changing enchants and gear stats etc.
    Any how this way I proposed all scaling issue gona be limited to undermountain as all campaigns maps gona be level 80 - with variety of dificulty ratings.

    And if devs are really in need scalling why not change it in a favor of a mechanics already implemented on tanks - global dps nerf instead of fluctuating statistics. It works on tanks why not add such feature on lover level maps - no matter of your IL - if you go to level 73 map your dps gona be reduced 5% you go 68 its 15%, and so on.

    One thing is certain - currently existing system is not working, and it seems to be beyong hope to working.
    So new approach is needed and devs are running out of time here.....yet they still wont to break pretty funcional system we have now and for what gain? To make 90% of content abandoned? Dont they realize that scalling issue will kick in even during leveling if a player gona gather xp too fast and will be promoted to level above a current map he is questing?

    And on the other heand - is it really intended that end game BIS player will be left with just 1 dungeon? As rest of content gona be buggy as hell due to scalling issue?

    Make all campaigns content level 80 with just 1 path to get to 80 and you get your problems solved.
  • adinosiiadinosii Posts: 3,945Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User


    A flat proportional IL scaling is harsh and distatsteful, but balanced.

    They have said they will not do proportional scaling. This was in response to the question why a R14 and a R10 enchant got scaled down to the same number.
    Make NWO great again, please....
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    gripnir78 said:

    One thing is certain - currently existing system is not working, and it seems to be beyong hope to working.
    So new approach is needed and devs are running out of time here.....yet they still wont to break pretty funcional system we have now and for what gain? To make 90% of content abandoned? Dont they realize that scalling issue will kick in even during leveling if a player gona gather xp too fast and will be promoted to level above a current map he is questing?

    Actually I can confirm this happens already and is annoying as Giant Space Hamster, because as soon as the scaling kicks in you become less effective.

    It’s like getting a pay rise, but taking home less money because you went up a tax bracket.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • gripnir78gripnir78 Posts: 371Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    I'm assuming the plan is to drop level scaling and go to IL scaling in the next week or weeks. I assume because IL scaling works better. The only problem is with figuring out how to handle Health and Power in such scaling. The big one is how to handle IL when it is over the average end content. Do you get scaled for empowering your character from 23,000 IL to 25,000 IL? I mean.. then whats the point in that increase?

    A flat proportional IL scaling is harsh and distatsteful, but balanced. If they implement a 'reward' for being over IL in an area, I dont want it to be a secret amount built into their new stat total. I think the best way to handle it is to create a "Heroic Bonus" stat. This stat will be a 'combined rating' bonus given for being 'over' the IL of an area. It will be some proportion of the true amount the player is over.

    That approach will simply make your toon working similar whenewer he would go - and sure it fits perfectly into a clone classes major MOD 16 idea, but I think lots of us visiting Dread Ring or Omu is happy to be more powerfull then we were doing this campaign long time ago. Or its just me?

    Put that together with huge nerf of value of enchantments, legendary mounts, insygnias, boons and so on....and yeah I seem to start recognize what @adinosii is talking about....
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Posts: 1,861Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    One fringe idea: have scaling so that everyone's at the same point IL wise except for the endgame content BUT

    Boons bypass this. So your base is your gear sans boons, and then you add the boon bonus on top. The boon effects are relatively small, but they're "sacred" meaning that your boons will always be in play.

    Gives people the incentive to run campaigns again.
  • theycallmetomutheycallmetomu Posts: 1,861Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User

    gripnir78 said:

    One thing is certain - currently existing system is not working, and it seems to be beyong hope to working.
    So new approach is needed and devs are running out of time here.....yet they still wont to break pretty funcional system we have now and for what gain? To make 90% of content abandoned? Dont they realize that scalling issue will kick in even during leveling if a player gona gather xp too fast and will be promoted to level above a current map he is questing?

    Actually I can confirm this happens already and is annoying as Giant Space Hamster, because as soon as the scaling kicks in you become less effective.

    It’s like getting a pay rise, but taking home less money because you went up a tax bracket.
    Also, just to dispel a common misconception, if that happens, it's because your withholding increased; your total tax burden may be higher, but your net take home pay increases when you get a pay increase. An increase in your tax bracket only applies to the income over that tax bracket, so when you go from 20% to 30%, only the income in the 30% bracket gets taxed as that.

    Meaning that the level scaling system is worse than taxation.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Posts: 1,823Member Arc User
    Not to descend into tax discussion, but given most countries have different taxation laws, perhaps this isn’t the place to try and dispel a misconception. :)
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Posts: 1,507Member Arc User
    Think I might just keep some of my lower IL alts at L70. At least until about Mod 21 when there's enough content to keep everyone busy in L80 content.
    That way I'll have characters that don't get nerfed going into EToS or CN on a Random INTERMEDIATE Queue...

    The irony is, that my "weaker" characters will be better than my "mains" in the vast majority of content until enough L80 stuff comes out.
    Won't that be funny...

    Please.. Devs... you have to look at Scaling.
  • malheur2080malheur2080 Posts: 109Member Arc User

    Think I might just keep some of my lower IL alts at L70. At least until about Mod 21 when there's enough content to keep everyone busy in L80 content.
    That way I'll have characters that don't get nerfed going into EToS or CN on a Random INTERMEDIATE Queue...

    The irony is, that my "weaker" characters will be better than my "mains" in the vast majority of content until enough L80 stuff comes out.
    Won't that be funny...

    Please.. Devs... you have to look at Scaling.

    How do you want to lock your characters from earning XP? After a couple dungeons you will leave your Lv70 save spot.

  • mordekai#1901 mordekai Posts: 1,507Member Arc User

    Think I might just keep some of my lower IL alts at L70. At least until about Mod 21 when there's enough content to keep everyone busy in L80 content.
    That way I'll have characters that don't get nerfed going into EToS or CN on a Random INTERMEDIATE Queue...

    The irony is, that my "weaker" characters will be better than my "mains" in the vast majority of content until enough L80 stuff comes out.
    Won't that be funny...

    Please.. Devs... you have to look at Scaling.

    How do you want to lock your characters from earning XP? After a couple dungeons you will leave your Lv70 save spot.

    Obviously, but if I avoid chasing XP and running other stuff they'll last a while.
  • wisper2048wisper2048 Posts: 178Member Arc User
    adinosii said:

    Sure he can go to Barovia and pick up the Vistani gear, or start the Undermountain quest chain and pick up the Undermountain gear, but such a player would be level 80 with a pretty minimal IL.

    Vistani and Undermountain start gears are just the same when I checked. Start weapons are better for Undermountain a bit, and they are acquired immediately w/o doing any quest or need to fight mobs on the way.

  • rafaeldarafaelda Posts: 622Member, NW M9 Playtest Arc User
    My personal opinios about scalling;

    To be short, the problem with scaling is that it has more experience and power should come back to old areas more powerful then he was previously, not weaker, and if possible not in the same "level of power", the scaling should mean
    1- Increase the stats / enchants of weaker players so they can reach the minimun required for that content
    2 - decrease the stats / enchantments of a powerfull character to the maximum allowed on that instance

    Any content must have a minimun and a maximum score and a powerfull character coming back to old content should be placed on TOP since he's being scaled down; i belive that doesn't matter if in LV 80 content hes an average player, the point is he is a LV 80 running Lv 30 or 70 content, hes is abouve the maximum allowed he should be scalled down to me max allowed...

    I've never seen on this game any maximum gear score for any content and that's the cause of overpowered runs

    Again this is my personal opinion and i know that giving ideas is easy, put it to pratice is another history but i do believe that placing a limit is easyer and make more sense than trying to scale down in the same proportions due the number of factors involved...

    also ake in considerations that is Much easyer for a new player to hit the required stats in lower level instances tham in end game, so if you do it in a proportional way you will send us back weaker than we where when running the old content...
  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Posts: 252Member Arc User
    I still haven't seen a satisfactory reason for why we need to be scaled at all. Why should ToS still be hard when I've mastered Cradle? That's not "keeping content relevant". The only relevance I can get out of ToS is rAD, and if I want to run 15 to cap my rAD for the day, so what?
  • xtremozxtremoz Posts: 220Member Arc User
    edited April 2019

    I still haven't seen a satisfactory reason for why we need to be scaled at all. Why should ToS still be hard when I've mastered Cradle? That's not "keeping content relevant". The only relevance I can get out of ToS is rAD, and if I want to run 15 to cap my rAD for the day, so what?

    Thats all... u said it yourself, since there's not much end game content u need to keep old content relevant, RAD makes it relevant, but they dont want us to cap RaD easy so making lv70 hard will make rad inflow slow. Now doing etos or similar is just for RAD and the Hope of a companion/arti/mount random drop, now Iam lv80 I ran a lv70 scale down making it harder and get and even more useless than even lv70 piece of gear (300 rp) and rad.

    Other than getting random queue RAD, no lv80 will run lv70's unless its something like cradle/tong the orange marks to lv enchants.

    Scalling down is so bad that if i dont wanna run the new lv80 dungeon I should not even lv my enchants why make lv14 enchants when 90% of what I run lower then to 8-9 status?


    Same goes for R15 enchantments - if the difference between a 14 and 15 is 200 status even in lv80 content the work/cost of lving for 200 status is useless. With 1/1000 ratio, 200 status 0.2% so the difference between 5x rank 14 or 5x rank 15 is 1%, Iam not spending zen/ad/$ to get 0.2% status.
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