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Official M16: Stats and Mechanics

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  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    Spent some time in LoL today, level 71 TR and level 80 Paladins, the TRs stats were better than the level 80 characters....

    Particularly a problem when the tank's HP are nerfed to the ground as well.

    On the subject of HP, something is wrong with Con.

    Con 21, 410373 HP. +11% HP
    Con 28, 411683 HP +14% HP

    That's not a 3% difference and it should be a 7% difference!
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • artifleurartifleur Member Posts: 642 Arc User

    Spent some time in LoL today, level 71 TR and level 80 Paladins, the TRs stats were better than the level 80 characters....

    Particularly a problem when the tank's HP are nerfed to the ground as well.

    On the subject of HP, something is wrong with Con.

    Con 21, 410373 HP. +11% HP
    Con 28, 411683 HP +14% HP

    That's not a 3% difference and it should be a 7% difference!

    Nice catch. It only counts naked HP, so about 30k at level 80.

  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Member Posts: 295 Arc User
    arcanjo86 said:

    when respec boons the game auto change my encounter powers/at-wills and daily powers for the starting ones and forcing player to re-arrange all our powers everytime we try to change boons @noworries#8859 the respec boons button is not locking the respec to boons page only, if i use respec feats it resets all my boons locked options, something is broken and not working like it does on live, were each tab for power/feats/boons reset separate, also after i reach level 80 the tab for power stay highlighted but nothing is available to change

    I get that it's a hassle, but maybe it's a good thing that one token does a full respec, instead of one token per page? Just saying.
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,105 Arc User
    I wouldn't want to have to redo all of the boons just to click a few different boxes for feats. It wouldn't be as bad as having to redo powers on Live but still bad. They split respec tokens into 3 and made them per page as a good QoL change.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    It also seems to be random...
    Sometimes I get just the feats, other times it respects everything from that page..

    Every time it resets your powers...
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • fdsakhfduewhfiuffdsakhfduewhfiuf Member Posts: 604 Arc User
    With the new mechanics (and probably scaling too) everything just takes longer. That's not a challenge, that's just pain. Whoever thought that it would be fun to make repetitive content in zones take longer?

    The only challenge with that is not to fall asleep or get bored to death.
  • karvarekarvare Member Posts: 212 Arc User
    Did the second expedition last night, very weird bug with stats. Normally my HPs are 410K(535K bounces in lower UM and workshop), my HPs were 805K and my ratings were through the roof. Oddly my gold/glory gain from my 9 prosperity insignia was completely gone, only the half elf racial of 1% gold gain.
  • fdsakhfduewhfiuffdsakhfduewhfiuf Member Posts: 604 Arc User
    After the latest patch my Vanguard lost 160k HP (in Protector's Enclave). WAI?
  • rafaeldarafaelda Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 657 Arc User

    Like I stated in another thread, lower instances should not scale the player level or item level but instead simply enforce a set value for all stats, AKA maximum allowed stat for said zone. This would make balancing easier. It is simply set the stat and forget. Let higher level players enjoy the extra stats as they EARNED it and should be able to feel stronger in lower level zones.



    100% agreed
    Exactly my tought, also placed this feedback a few times already...
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,391 Arc User
    edited April 2019

    Like I stated in another thread, lower instances should not scale the player level or item level but instead simply enforce a set value for all stats, AKA maximum allowed stat for said zone. This would make balancing easier. It is simply set the stat and forget. Let higher level players enjoy the extra stats as they EARNED it and should be able to feel stronger in lower level zones.

    Hmm you do notice that "cap" that enforces a set value on all stats is the exact opposite of:
    "higher level players enjoy the extra stats as they EARNED it and should be able to feel stronger in lower level zones"

    Any point in stat said higher level players will have above the cap is useless. And if the cap is high so that high level players enjoy the stats in your system then the cap -> your scaling model is not working.

    The current system is in part like that, uses caps on gear. And this is why it is so bad.

    The solution is the opposite of caps. Any uncapped diminishing return function based on the difference in levels or some content difficulty rating is the solution.
    Guild: The Imaginary Friends
    If you disagree with me: My opinions are my own and do not reflect on my guild and friends.
    If you agree with me: My opinions are totally the guild official policy !
    ;)
  • arcanjo86arcanjo86 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,008 Arc User
    @noworries#8859 why when i add the total of +8 point to ability score INT i get and +2.5% to magical damage, max points?? always was 1% if over 10 points on int, whith these small percentage values makes ability score useless to boost damage, i wonder if all players will stick to max cha ability scores values instead of damage ability scores, with the nerf on encounters/dailiypower damage values, removal of power stat from companion gear, removal of power from char rings, nerf on weapons damage values(fom a 9-10k damge weapon to a level 80 4k damage weapon. really??? how can dev team self destruct this game from inside with these bad decisions without community polls to ask for their opinion on the changes you all are trying to change the game without taking playerbase feedback into consideration, cryptic studios way of working and devs are puppets towards those goals and killing a d&d franchise is on their goal shame that had such a good fluid fight style is killed by dumbing down the game with such lazy coding.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    micky1p00 said:

    Like I stated in another thread, lower instances should not scale the player level or item level but instead simply enforce a set value for all stats, AKA maximum allowed stat for said zone. This would make balancing easier. It is simply set the stat and forget. Let higher level players enjoy the extra stats as they EARNED it and should be able to feel stronger in lower level zones.

    Hmm you do notice that "cap" that enforces a set value on all stats is the exact opposite of:
    "higher level players enjoy the extra stats as they EARNED it and should be able to feel stronger in lower level zones"

    Any point in stat said higher level players will have above the cap is useless. And if the cap is high so that high level players enjoy the stats in your system then the cap -> your scaling model is not working.

    The current system is in part like that, uses caps on gear. And this is why it is so bad.

    The solution is the opposite of caps. Any uncapped diminishing return function based on the difference in levels or some content difficulty rating is the solution.
    I never said the solution I listed is perfect, but it is better than scaling by level or IL. Both level and item level scaling assumes that all players of the same level or item level have the same stats and that is not the case. Players focus differently on their stat resulting in players having different stats and when you scale like this you are gimping players in an ineffective manor causing issues for the player, especially if it is done by the character level.

    As for your solution it is actually additional coding beyond setting a hard value for each zone. Your solution would require proper programming that is error free vs. a hard coded value you enter into a table. Given Cryptic history of delivering code, I prefer the method I listed as it should be easier to implement and less likely to result in error. Both solutions can have problems.

    Within my solution the devs can actually provide a bump in allowed stats to give players that sense of character progression.

  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,391 Arc User
    edited April 2019

    micky1p00 said:

    Like I stated in another thread, lower instances should not scale the player level or item level but instead simply enforce a set value for all stats, AKA maximum allowed stat for said zone. This would make balancing easier. It is simply set the stat and forget. Let higher level players enjoy the extra stats as they EARNED it and should be able to feel stronger in lower level zones.

    Hmm you do notice that "cap" that enforces a set value on all stats is the exact opposite of:
    "higher level players enjoy the extra stats as they EARNED it and should be able to feel stronger in lower level zones"

    Any point in stat said higher level players will have above the cap is useless. And if the cap is high so that high level players enjoy the stats in your system then the cap -> your scaling model is not working.

    The current system is in part like that, uses caps on gear. And this is why it is so bad.

    The solution is the opposite of caps. Any uncapped diminishing return function based on the difference in levels or some content difficulty rating is the solution.
    I never said the solution I listed is perfect, but it is better than scaling by level or IL. Both level and item level scaling assumes that all players of the same level or item level have the same stats and that is not the case. Players focus differently on their stat resulting in players having different stats and when you scale like this you are gimping players in an ineffective manor causing issues for the player, especially if it is done by the character level.

    As for your solution it is actually additional coding beyond setting a hard value for each zone. Your solution would require proper programming that is error free vs. a hard coded value you enter into a table. Given Cryptic history of delivering code, I prefer the method I listed as it should be easier to implement and less likely to result in error. Both solutions can have problems.

    Within my solution the devs can actually provide a bump in allowed stats to give players that sense of character progression.

    I believe you miss the meaning behind scaling, and the effect of a cap.
    Please check various scaling functions, Linear, Bi-Linear, etc..

    Any proper scaling function, allows players to benefit from any stat points they have, if they spread them on all stats, or one single stats. Adding any point to their stats will be still beneficial after scaling.

    Capping to any fixed value does exactly the opposite, various players will get some of their stats useless due to the cap, any progress they will do will be met with a cap. Players having much more stats in high level gear will cap all of your 'scaled' stats, hence they will have 0 progress. Exactly the opposite of what you aim to achieve.

    Do you understand how scaling currently works and why it is bad? It is bad because it caps on gear like enchants. There is no difference if you have rank 8 or rank 15, they are all capped at 8. So... No progress due to cap.
    Your suggestion is to make it even worse. 0 progress at all from all sources due to static cap per zone.

    Also - adding a scaling function on the main stats is trivial. Creating one is also not complex, today you can fit any number of desired points and get a function. In general there are plenty of known and simple functions to use for DR. for example X^(1/a) for a > 1
    increase a by 0.1 per zone level difference (for example) and you are done.
    Post edited by micky1p00 on
    Guild: The Imaginary Friends
    If you disagree with me: My opinions are my own and do not reflect on my guild and friends.
    If you agree with me: My opinions are totally the guild official policy !
    ;)
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,310 Arc User

    you are gimping players in an ineffective manor

    how did you know janne was running an illicit clothing store based out of a broken down manor?


    As for your solution it is actually additional coding beyond setting a hard value for each zone. Your solution would require proper programming that is error free vs. a hard coded value you enter into a table. Given Cryptic history of delivering code, I prefer the method I listed as it should be easier to implement and less likely to result in error. Both solutions can have problems.

    Diminishing returns on stats were around since Mod 4/5 to my knowledge, probably earlier. They weren't based off zone (I recall they were partially based on level, but it's been too long since I looked at kaelac stuff), but they existed.

    I don't know the engine specifics at all, but it might end up being more work having to set an individual cap for each individual stat zone and each individual zone (including future modules' zones) rather than creating a formula and applying it for all zones.

    Though I doubt there would be any dim. returns anyways, considering that any mathematical formulas past multiplication/division seem to scare people off.
    arcanjo86 said:

    nerf on weapons damage values(fom a 9-10k damge weapon to a level 80 4k damage weapon.

    Weapon damage wasn't technically nerfed, it was player stats and buffs that were (or is removed more accurate?).

    Right now on live, most players' weapon damage is sitting around the 3000 mark sans level base, with GWF being the weirdo class approaching 4000 weapon damage.

    But otherwise, I'm with you on the ability score changes being a poor idea.

  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Member Posts: 295 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:

    micky1p00 said:

    Like I stated in another thread, lower instances should not scale the player level or item level but instead simply enforce a set value for all stats, AKA maximum allowed stat for said zone. This would make balancing easier. It is simply set the stat and forget. Let higher level players enjoy the extra stats as they EARNED it and should be able to feel stronger in lower level zones.

    Hmm you do notice that "cap" that enforces a set value on all stats is the exact opposite of:
    "higher level players enjoy the extra stats as they EARNED it and should be able to feel stronger in lower level zones"

    Any point in stat said higher level players will have above the cap is useless. And if the cap is high so that high level players enjoy the stats in your system then the cap -> your scaling model is not working.

    The current system is in part like that, uses caps on gear. And this is why it is so bad.

    The solution is the opposite of caps. Any uncapped diminishing return function based on the difference in levels or some content difficulty rating is the solution.
    I never said the solution I listed is perfect, but it is better than scaling by level or IL. Both level and item level scaling assumes that all players of the same level or item level have the same stats and that is not the case. Players focus differently on their stat resulting in players having different stats and when you scale like this you are gimping players in an ineffective manor causing issues for the player, especially if it is done by the character level.

    As for your solution it is actually additional coding beyond setting a hard value for each zone. Your solution would require proper programming that is error free vs. a hard coded value you enter into a table. Given Cryptic history of delivering code, I prefer the method I listed as it should be easier to implement and less likely to result in error. Both solutions can have problems.

    Within my solution the devs can actually provide a bump in allowed stats to give players that sense of character progression.

    I believe you miss the meaning behind scaling, and the effect of a cap.
    Please check various scaling functions, Linear, Bi-Linear, etc..

    Any proper scaling function, allows players to benefit from any stat points they have, if they spread them on all stats, or one single stats. Adding any point to their stats will be still beneficial after scaling.

    Capping to any fixed value does exactly the opposite, various players will get some of their stats useless due to the cap, any progress they will do will be met with a cap. Players having much more stats in high level gear will cap all of your 'scaled' stats, hence they will have 0 progress. Exactly the opposite of what you aim to achieve.

    Do you understand how scaling currently works and why it is bad? It is bad because it caps on gear like enchants. There is no difference if you have rank 8 or rank 15, they are all capped at 8. So... No progress due to cap.
    Your suggestion is to make it even worse. 0 progress at all from all sources due to static cap per zone.

    Also - adding a scaling function on the main stats is trivial. Creating one is also not complex, today you can fit any number of desired points and get a function. In general there are plenty of known and simple functions to use for DR. for example X^(1/a) for a > 1
    increase a by 0.1 per zone level difference (for example) and you are done.
    I... really don't think "enchant caps" are the problem. You can say that it's frustrating to see your enchantments scaled down to rank 8, but that cap is NOT why 80s are coming out weaker than 70s.
    The problem is that the scaling is inconsistent, opaque, and overly aggressive.

    It's funny. You'd think, with the new, highly linear "1000 pts = 1%" math, it'd be really easy to just subtract the the difference between the current zone's benchmarks and L80 open world benchmarks to give you the same percentages in every rating stat that you have unscaled. Even on live, it doesn't work that way, but with the simpler system math, the code shouldn't be too fiddly.
  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Fenrir's point is that because they've simplified the stats and code so much, so they say, that stat capping should be easy for them. The system shouldn't be so wonky. Honest scaling should be easy for them too, that math isn't too hard either. Yet we're seeing a seriously HAMSTER and cack-handed scaling system that doesn't work at all. And bottom line is that we shouldn't be.
  • cdnbisoncdnbison Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 806 Arc User

    Like I stated in another thread, lower instances should not scale the player level or item level but instead simply enforce a set value for all stats, AKA maximum allowed stat for said zone. This would make balancing easier. It is simply set the stat and forget. Let higher level players enjoy the extra stats as they EARNED it and should be able to feel stronger in lower level zones.

    This won't happen this late in the process, but...

    Wouldn't it make more sense to scale stats as opposing %? If a level 80 has "100%" (i.e. enough to overcome resistances for offence) of a stat (66,000 in this case), that'd translate to 100% at level 70 - which is 57,000. The max. numbers are already well known, so translating things like this seems more manageable than whatever system is currently in place.

    The only fly in the ointment would be HP, but that should be relatively translatable, shouldn't it?

    I would also argue in favor of scaling players to slightly higher power levels (+3-7 levels) over the zone average; so level 75-ish in a level 70 zone. It preserves that sense of gained power and mastery, but not completely supreme. Dungeons - maybe just +0-1 level bonus to maintain a bit of a bonus, but not too much, and avoid speedruns.

  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    That's exactly what should happen. It's gone too long this way to think they'll do it now though.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    The only stats that need to scale are HP, Power and Weapon Damage and maybe Critical Severity, everything else has a hard cap (50% or 100%).

    That’s how the system is supposed to work at least.

    So stats other than HP, Power and Weapon Damage don’t need to be scaled at all.

    Not scaling them rewards players for progressing in the game and does provide the benefit of making lower level content easier, which is what people expect! But the hard caps on effectiveness means that being BIS makes no more difference for lower level content than being average if you are higher level, as long as you hit the lower level’s cap.

    Then the current level 70 dungeons need to be made level 80.
    They should fit between normal level 80 and LotMM, even if that means increasing the base value for LotMM.

    So if 80 has a 10000 base, KR, SoT, VT, MC should be 11000, ToS, CC, GWD, 12000, CN, 12500, FBI, ToNG, CR, 13000 and LotMM 14000. (Yes that is an increase in difficulty for LotMM as I understand it, but frankly I think it needs it.)

    I ultimately don’t care if BIS players and near BIS players can solo dungeons or do 5dps runs or whatever. As long as average teams still want 3/1/1 to run the top 2 or 3 tiers of dungeon the module will achieve its goals in my eyes.

    By far my biggest frustration with the current system, is that I don’t know what my stats are at any given time, they need to stop moving so you actually can understand them and are not just pursuing a myth.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    jelara1 said:

    Can someone please tell me what zone I can go to in order to see my base stats in a reliable way? Is there such a zone? Because there really needs to be. Your level shouldn't matter, it should work for any level to show you your base stats at that level. I am so frustrated by this when trying to set up my characters!

    I would think this is PE but my stats jump around with no changes (I’m avoiding campfire and other bonuses).

    Examples from today (none of these are reliably reproducible, but because I've been making a lot of notes about my stats I've seem all kinds of inconsistent things occur):

    1. Sitting in PE for a while, no buffs on. Make note of stats. Log out, then log back in, (wait for companion’s gift) and I’ve suddenly gained 1000-3000 in various stats. Huh?

    2. Change out a single stat (ex: Crit Strike enchantment to accuracy), and while my accuracy and Crit change, so does armor pen, by a significant difference (was about 4k this time). Log out and back in again, and it looks normal again.

    3. Have an augment companion out and make note of starting stats, switch to a summoned pet, then switch back to the original augment pet and your stats may be very different than your starting stats.

    I have no idea what my base stats actually are.

    So much this.

    Nothing shows that this scaling system is breaking the game as much as these sorts of problems.

    You can enter a zone and have 1000s more stats than you will have 10s later. Standing in different spots in the same zone changes your stats. Holding your mouse differently changes your stats it feels like.

    Get rid of the scaling system entirely.

    Then take 6 months to get it working correctly in all instances, then announce it as coming as part of whatever the next mod is to maximise play test time.

    But this is in no state to go live and 2 weeks seems like an unreasonable amount of time to fix such a malfunctioning major element of the game. Better to excise it and get everything else working properly.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,441 Arc User

    jelara1 said:

    Can someone please tell me what zone I can go to in order to see my base stats in a reliable way? Is there such a zone? Because there really needs to be. Your level shouldn't matter, it should work for any level to show you your base stats at that level. I am so frustrated by this when trying to set up my characters!

    I would think this is PE but my stats jump around with no changes (I’m avoiding campfire and other bonuses).

    Examples from today (none of these are reliably reproducible, but because I've been making a lot of notes about my stats I've seem all kinds of inconsistent things occur):

    1. Sitting in PE for a while, no buffs on. Make note of stats. Log out, then log back in, (wait for companion’s gift) and I’ve suddenly gained 1000-3000 in various stats. Huh?

    2. Change out a single stat (ex: Crit Strike enchantment to accuracy), and while my accuracy and Crit change, so does armor pen, by a significant difference (was about 4k this time). Log out and back in again, and it looks normal again.

    3. Have an augment companion out and make note of starting stats, switch to a summoned pet, then switch back to the original augment pet and your stats may be very different than your starting stats.

    I have no idea what my base stats actually are.

    So much this.

    Nothing shows that this scaling system is breaking the game as much as these sorts of problems.

    You can enter a zone and have 1000s more stats than you will have 10s later. Standing in different spots in the same zone changes your stats. Holding your mouse differently changes your stats it feels like.

    Get rid of the scaling system entirely.

    Then take 6 months to get it working correctly in all instances, then announce it as coming as part of whatever the next mod is to maximise play test time.

    But this is in no state to go live and 2 weeks seems like an unreasonable amount of time to fix such a malfunctioning major element of the game. Better to excise it and get everything else working properly.
    with 2 weeks before release the final copy should be in qa already


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