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Official M16: Stats and Mechanics

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  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Member Posts: 295 Arc User
    edited April 2019

    A thought that would improve quality-of-life without impacting combat balance at all:
    As "encounter" powers, make Encounter Powers and healer resources recharge twice as fast out of combat. Slower cooldowns in a fight is a pacing choice, and one of the dials you have access to when tweaking difficulty, but enforced downtime, where you're waiting on a pull so your powers can recharge, feels bad and frustrating (as you showed you understood with the lauded reduction in Injury recovery time).

    You still have the same failure state for fights, since faster recharge between fights doesn't change how much is available during the fight, encounters that have their cooldowns tuned around only being available X number of times in a given fight are still only available X times, but are still usable at the top of the next fight.

    (EDIT: changed word for modulation because swear filter is apparently british)
  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    That's already been suggested and rejected because people can try to game the system by leaving combat. Honestly the amount of time it takes to leave, wait on cooldown, then rejoin wouldn't be worth it, but we can't have it because people might try. The same reason divinity regeneration is on a leash between fights too.
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,441 Arc User

    Think I might just keep some of my lower IL alts at L70. At least until about Mod 21 when there's enough content to keep everyone busy in L80 content.
    That way I'll have characters that don't get nerfed going into EToS or CN on a Random INTERMEDIATE Queue...

    The irony is, that my "weaker" characters will be better than my "mains" in the vast majority of content until enough L80 stuff comes out.
    Won't that be funny...

    Please.. Devs... you have to look at Scaling.

    you aren't going to be able to keep them at 70. doing the content you talk about will rank you up quickly on those alts.


  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    In reading these threads, I see a common misconception that scaling can be dropped. This is simply not true with the stat system we have. If you wanted 'original difficulty', now they would need to scale to it.

    I created a scaling system that I believe adresses all of the concerns ive read so far.

    o No matter where you go, you will become more powerful if you improve your gear/stats.
    o Level 70 campains become easier, not harder, after you reach Level 80.
    o Dungeons and low level areas become more difficult.
    o There is no complication from item rank scaling.

    New Topic created for the system:
    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter/#/discussion/1247050/truescale-system
  • thefiresidecatthefiresidecat Member Posts: 4,441 Arc User

    Think I might just keep some of my lower IL alts at L70. At least until about Mod 21 when there's enough content to keep everyone busy in L80 content.
    That way I'll have characters that don't get nerfed going into EToS or CN on a Random INTERMEDIATE Queue...

    The irony is, that my "weaker" characters will be better than my "mains" in the vast majority of content until enough L80 stuff comes out.
    Won't that be funny...

    Please.. Devs... you have to look at Scaling.

    How do you want to lock your characters from earning XP? After a couple dungeons you will leave your Lv70 save spot.

    Obviously, but if I avoid chasing XP and running other stuff they'll last a while.
    dungeons are the fastest way to earn xp.


  • autumnwitchautumnwitch Member Posts: 953 Arc User
    Does anyone know what the stats will be for the Rings of Rising Fortitude in MOD16?
    Boudica's Sisters - A Guild For Introverts
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    So I went to Barovia and Chult this evening, and while Chult felt ok to play, similar to Vanrakdoom, Baroiva is a pain.

    This seems to be because of things outside the basic "level" of the zone. For example Barovia was originally planned to be harder content than Chult, which was harder than River District and so on. While that feel is maintained its no longer relevant, especially as most people coming to do this in the future will be level 80.

    Also now that mobs actually extend to 80, it seems to make more sense to just shift the actual level of those zones, rather than manipulate their difficulty behind the scenes as is done now on Live.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
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  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Member Posts: 295 Arc User

    That's already been suggested and rejected because people can try to game the system by leaving combat. Honestly the amount of time it takes to leave, wait on cooldown, then rejoin wouldn't be worth it, but we can't have it because people might try. The same reason divinity regeneration is on a leash between fights too.

    Make it not work in PvP? Trying to game it in PvE just leads to the encounter resetting, and then you're back where you started, minus any consumables you may have used.
  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    I'm not saying it's a bad suggestion. I agree with you. Just pointing out why we can't have things like that. Because people might try to game it. Even in PvE. In dungeons where the rest of the party can maintain the encounter, one person runs out, gets CD reduction, runs back in. Next person runs out, gets CD reduction, runs back in. Etc. Even if you didn't gain anything by trying to game it, the idea that people would try it means they won't do it.
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Member Posts: 295 Arc User
    edited April 2019

    I'm not saying it's a bad suggestion. I agree with you. Just pointing out why we can't have things like that. Because people might try to game it. Even in PvE. In dungeons where the rest of the party can maintain the encounter, one person runs out, gets CD reduction, runs back in. Next person runs out, gets CD reduction, runs back in. Etc. Even if you didn't gain anything by trying to game it, the idea that people would try it means they won't do it.

    But that's... absurd. You'd still do more damage by using atwills than by afking long enough for the out-of-combat cooldown boost to kick in, and if that weren't the case, it would mean that atwills were underperforming.

    Even a party combat check, to confirm that if your party is within cohesion range and in combat, would deal with that.

    Or they could just tune the content for the people who play the game, as opposed to just striving for the biggest numbers or try to skip content.
  • kythelion#3210 kythelion Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    It is absurd. I agree. But that's how reasoning goes here unfortunately. "Someone MIGHT try to cheat the system. Better make sure they can't try that." WAY more important than making things fun and convenient. Same deal we're seeing with the exchange bta. "Oh gods, someone might profit by managing to unbind a level 5 enchantment from a QM bag. Better make sure that can't happen, and screw all the people who would probably legit use it."
  • zimxero#8085 zimxero Member Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited April 2019

    Does anyone know what the stats will be for the Rings of Rising Fortitude in MOD16?

    Lots of unknowns that are important for gear & stat selection:

    o Will second enchantment slots now be nerfed to half value universally?

    o What is the critical severity of Monsters? seriously.. how are we supposed to know the value of critical resistance?

    o Will deflection severity remain at only 50% damage reduction? If so, accuracy is worth half as much as armor penetration and deflect is only worth half as much as defense.

    o What formula is being used for AP gain & recovery? any changes to the old formula? Is 1% recovery evaluated by the engine the same way that 200 recovery points was in the old system?

    o Which equipment perks can raise a player above CAP, and which will not?

    o Are monster Health and Power completely set by a formula, or are they hand set uniquely for each species on a map?

    o While at the final area in the Undermountain map, am I scaled if my equipment level gets higher than the map?

    o Are stats from boons being scaled down, while percentage & effects boons are not being scaled down?
  • b3llist0rb3llist0r Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 191 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Hi,

    I wrote a detailed proposal but it got del/moderated. Is that forbidden / violates rules?

    My questions

    1) Why does a stat, which is below a counter stat, gives 0%? Reducing the effect of a stat when below counter threshold would avoid the zero effect gap. Why not?

    2) An absolute linear scaling creates a static dependency between stats. From a given point e.g. Power gives more return on invest than Crit. The value itself becomes meaningless... it may be better to increase power from 120.000 to 130.000 instead of investing in a 22.000 accuracy. That makes stats useless ...A linear scaling with STEPS could solve this. The % per stat could go down step by step. So other stats have a chance to become more effective. Neverwinter had complex Diminishing Returns formula once and then after Mod X a fixed linear scaling. What about a way in between?

    3) 1% Armor Penetration is much better than 1% Deflect Ignore. So 1000 Arp is better than 1000 Accuracy. Always .. up to the hard cap. Is that intended?

    One design goal is the scaleability. Definition of lvl is the critter counter stat. So why dont you tie the STEPS to the counter stat.
    Below counter stat : 1% / 2000
    Up to counter stat : 1% / 1000
    Up to 2x counter stat : 1% / 1500
    Up to 3x counter stat.......
    You could change the counter stats for new player/critter levels.
    You could change the threshold factors for a major difficulty change (e.g. epic mode).
    You could change the percent per stat ratio for each stat individually to balance the stats.
    You can introduce soft caps instead of hard caps with very unrewarding step stages for ultra high stat values. Even for power to soft cap the max dps.
    That system offers sooooo much more options.
    Is that too much complexity for Neverwinter? No offense. There are so many working
    solutions for math systems in a game. I would like to see Neverwinter improving!

    //Bellistor
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,293 Arc User
    b3llist0r said:


    3) 1% Armor Penetration is much better than 1% Deflect Ignore. So 1000 Arp is better than 1000 Accuracy. Always .. up to the hard cap. Is that intended?

    Not all stats are equal. This is for example why all the M16 guides say something "For DPS, focus on maxing ArPen first, before putting points into Accuracy.

    Sometimes the relative importance of stats is situational. Consider for example Awareness and Crit Resist.

    Awareness counters the CA of the opponent. However, for a dedicated "boss" loadout where you are fighting a single opponent, it will (generally) not have CA against you in the first place, so it is a waste to put any points into Awareness for that loadout, whereas if you are surrounded by a group of trash mobs, they will typically have CA, so Awareness is useful in that case.

    Crit Resist might be useful in boss loadouts, to reduce the risk of being one-shotted by a big critical hit, but in general, it is a pretty useless stat, and that is just because the Crit Severity of mobs isn't that high. It is simply more effective to put additional points into HP instead. This might change if the Crit Severity of mobs was raised (something which I would actually like).
    Hoping for improvements...
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,293 Arc User

    as a cleric how do i know if a powers deals physical or magical damage, both, or neither? i would assume all my damage is magical since i dont use a melee weapon.....why do i have a physical damage boosting stat????

    All your damage is magical. Basically, you want high INT scores. Yes, I know it makes no sense from a D&D point of view.

    Yes, I know it sucks to get a high score in WIS, which is utterly useless for an Arbiter Cleric, but it has been made VERY clear that this is not going to change.

    On the positive side, the bonuses given by the stats (0.25% per point are so pathetic that they don't really matter - it's not like D&D where a +2 to a stat is a really big deal.
    Hoping for improvements...
  • kacsaneverkacsanever Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 167 Arc User
    adinosii said:

    as a cleric how do i know if a powers deals physical or magical damage, both, or neither? i would assume all my damage is magical since i dont use a melee weapon.....why do i have a physical damage boosting stat????

    All your damage is magical. Basically, you want high INT scores. Yes, I know it makes no sense from a D&D point of view.

    Yes, I know it sucks to get a high score in WIS, which is utterly useless for an Arbiter Cleric, but it has been made VERY clear that this is not going to change.

    On the positive side, the bonuses given by the stats (0.25% per point are so pathetic that they don't really matter - it's not like D&D where a +2 to a stat is a really big deal.
    Not everything can be followed from D&D rues, we must accept it like it or not. At least they listened and chnged WIS to outgoing heal instead of incoming heal increase. Also don't forget, in D&D you would be a "zero dps" as a cleric w/o STR, as your at-wills would be STR based and you are limited by HP and spell slots to use your magical attacks.
    Also, compared to D&D, all ability scores are effective from 1 instead of from 11.
    As adonisii wrote, all your attacks are magic based. STR on the other hand givs you stamina gain (even if it was just lvl10) wich is useful. DEX gives you movspeed and critsev, etc.
    Hence, I am not 100% satisfied with the ability score effects being the same for all class, it is an acceptable trade-off w/ other "non-compliancies".
  • kacsaneverkacsanever Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 167 Arc User
    I will wait for the next path to check how lvl-scaling is changed, if any, but the current one is really terrible. Made a quick calculation and my results showed that, mobs in lvl70 zone have higher stats, for lvl80 toon, than mobs in lvl80 zone.
  • kieranmtornkieranmtorn Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 382 Arc User
    > @autumnwitch said:
    > Does anyone know what the stats will be for the Rings of Rising Fortitude in MOD16?

    It's still bugged and unscaled. My +5 Rising Critical ring is still giving its mod 15 numbers.
  • mebengalsfan#9264 mebengalsfan Member Posts: 3,169 Arc User

    Why nerf stat values by 50% when you could just put in diminishing returns after a certain cap? I mean, if the goal is to sell less companions, mounts, enchantments, etc. then this is a great way to accomplish it - everything in the zen store that isn't wards or cosmetic has been nerfed 50%. And all this with less than a month to launch? How is that a good idea?

    You do realize companions give better stats in mod 16 than legendary mounts. Players won't need legendary mount because they are WORTHLESS come next mod. That is going to hit their revenue pretty big because I know myself and everyone I played the game with has purchased zen to convert to AD to buy a legendary mount. Players now won't need that legendary mount, so why bother spending $100+ when it does not add any value to your character. Devs need to reconsider stats on mounts but than again they want to nerf us, so let's nerf them and stop spending money on this game.
  • adinosiiadinosii Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 4,293 Arc User
    edited April 2019

    Initial stats:

    Cleric: STR: 10, CON: 10, DEX: 10, INT: 15, WIS: 16, CHA: 13
    Warlock: STR: 8, CON: 14, DEX: 12, INT: 16, WIS: 8, CHA: 16
    Both the Cleric and Warlock have "Healer" and "DPS" roles, so why are their enforced initial stats so different? Clerics get a semi-decent distribution for healing, but a pathetic one for DPS - Warlocks get a good DPS distribution, and a somewhat lousy healing one.

    Not fair.

    I am very unhappy with the whole idea of a fixed stat distribution, but if you are going to persist with that you should at least equally unfair to all classes, like giving both classes the same stat distribution which would be like the average of those two.
    Hoping for improvements...
  • kacsaneverkacsanever Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 167 Arc User

    Getting lots of strange stats, but at least now the stats I see in YP match the stats I see (after a few minutes) in LotMM and Master Expeditions, so that is a win!



    It’s very disappointing that adding 3 points in Con changes HP by 390 (yes just 390) when you have 446k HP. At this point I might as well not bother having Con at all really... which is super odd.

    I agree. Adding any point to CON is a waste. Have not checked yet, but my guess is it increases the base HP, not the current HP.
  • obsidiancran3obsidiancran3 Member Posts: 1,823 Arc User
    So I have started a project where I take a screen shot of my stats in different locations, then go back to the same spot in Barovia to compare my stats.

    So far this has not been reassuring!

    Just in a 10 minute window my stats can change by 10k in the same zone!

    My stats now in Barovia are worse than before I started the “Important Invitation” quest and I haven’t changed a single thing, including level!

    I fear that whatever you are doing in these old 70 zones is fundamentally broken and until you make all level 70 content actually level 70 now (not fake level 75 etc) or its actual level, and remove all the code messing with function of stats it’s going to stay broken.

    The project is going to take some time to complete, but I will get it done tomorrow and share the data.
    Obsidian Moonlight - Paladin
    Obsidian Oath - Warlock
    A whole lot of other Obsidian toons as well.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,391 Arc User
    edited April 2019


    Here it says Movment is not a stat, but will be added as percent only:


    Many of the level 80 items have Movment as a stat:


    So what is it?

    Is it a 1000:1 stat?
    Is there anything else like that?


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  • hawkeyelhawkeyel Member Posts: 389 Arc User
    edited April 2019
    Mechanics. I still find the mechanics on the Warlock more than a little over the top. We even have an At - Will that makes us jump and do a 360 deg. spin before it goes off .Really. Nobody is going to get that excited for an Warlocks At - Will or anything else about them for that matter.Should just make it look more like it hits, make us look like we are doing a finger pluck to the target and it will be more realistic looking.
    Post edited by hawkeyel on
  • fenrir4lifefenrir4life Member Posts: 295 Arc User
    edited April 2019

    BUG: Powers tab continues to blink despite having no further choices to make on that tab. Appears to also be blocking changing between my original loadout and my second one. Was able to work around this via taking a free extra loadout on test shard, but this is a potentially character-breaking issue if it makes it to live.

    Character is Rodek Ironblood
    The reason I feel these issues are related is that in my "manage loadouts" screen, it locks me out of my second loadout with the message that I have not finished retraining, or have spent fewer ability score, power, feat, or boon points in my current loadout(this statement is nonsensical; I shouldn't have to fully finalize a build before swapping between them).

    Error message when I attempt to swap loadouts from my character sheet reads:"[Error] Unable to equip some items from the loadout."

    When that happens, shouldn't it just change loadouts without equipping the unequippable items?
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