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[PC] Epic Dungeon Party Composition Problematics
c1k4ml3kc3
Member Posts: 1,257 Arc User
Dear Developers and Neverwinter community. I have to report a horrible experience which continuously is happening in Neverwinter Online. It revolves around the class exclusivity in Epic Dungeon content.
You know me. When something is good I will say that it is good. When something is bad, I will say that it is bad. And the Epic Dungeon content is extremely bad because it's extremely class restrictive. And that restriction falls onto SUPPORT classes.
The system says 3 DPS and 2 Support (Tank + Healer). Is that a joke, ask I? Is that a slap in the face, ask I? That does not happen, ever, whatsoever. Because there is a flaw in the way system works and the way how the content is restrictive to the classes in Neverwinter.
MOD 3 had it good. You get hurt, you drink a health potion, it goes on a cooldown, but you play with friends and family the way you want in the time you want, in the moment you want, the way you want. If it was 5 DPS, it was 5 DPS, no questions asked. Was it harder with bosses? A bit. Was it faster without the support? Not really.
Now? Just horrible, horrible, restrictive experience.
I am a longtime Neverwinter player who plays with a Spell Storm Wizard class. As such I am at a huge disadvantage when it comes around going into any Epic Dungeon with any party. As such I gave up from going into dungeons and I find that necessity to get the new Weapons which only arrive through the quest after Count is defeated a very unpleasant experience. I like playing hunts as an alternative to going to dungeons because I do not want to plunge into the META play again only to find out that it completely changed by the time I invested into perfecting the character creation for the following 6 months. That being said, META demands very specific character options and shuts down anyone else. That meta didn't change at all in the past years. Why? What is the point of it?
The dungeons I did not beat nor play are :
- Spellplague Caverns
- Tomb of the Nine Gods
- Cradle of the Death God
- Castle Ravenloft
And neither did my friends nor family.
Very rarely do people have the patience to allow any newbies to learn and play the new content. Unless I find some kind soul in the game to actually take turns and lead all my friends and family into the new content just to experience it once, it simply won't happen. It is impossible to happen with either LFG or other custom channel options. If you do not play a support role or the highest dps role, you do not play it at all. I know players who run "practice runs" and I congratulate them. Even in the test runs there is META play, so unless I play as a Paladin or Devoted Cleric I can say goodbye to the dungeon.
The latest Castle Ravenloft Epic Dungeon needs a Paladin (Healadin if you will), Two Devoted Clerics and a Guardian Fighter to actually have a decent team with decent survivability options in contrast to the speed of beating the given content. This automatically shuts down my Executioner TR friends in party alongside with me as a Spell Storm Wizard. I have to play as a Master of Flame in order to be actually useful in boss fights. Why is this a necessity? Is that equality? No.
That being said, that is FOUR support classes. The logical choice to follow is either a Warlock or a Great Weapon Fighter as those outdish some astronomical numbers DPS-wise without much effort.
This FORCED EPIC DUNGEON charade started at MOD6, the worst module this game and playerbase ever experienced, and still persists no matter how many nerfs were given to the support classes in the process. It is obvious that it does not work for everyone as people already have the problem of investing a lot of time to beat one dungeon, also to mention occasional disconnects, lags and tendency to get completely wiped out due to how hard the mobs attack in EPIC DUNGEONS.
And as the biggest letdown for me is the inability to play with people I like because of how similar or different our classes are. If I am forced to play a class I do not enjoy just in order to beat the content that is inevitably called - WORKING THE CONTENT. I do not want my FUN TIME to turn into WORK TIME. I do not want to play as a class I do not enjoy playing. Yet, the META demands that and has been demanding it for a long time now.
Given the very positive changes in the recent times with MOD 13 and MOD 14 I was sincerely hoping that the "Bring your own support" method will die out, but it obviously did not as the dungeon runs simply demand having a tank which is a very hard thing to come by.
I can't play without a TANK role. Without a TANK I would need around 500 Scrolls of Mass Life so that I and my friends play as roles we actually enjoy playing, which would make us like the game more, which would make us actually invest money in the things we enjoy logically.
My point is, you've tried too hard since MOD 6 to make people "realize" that tank role is a must, but it looks to me that it outlasted its usefulness and people are getting tired of tank roles altogether. Why force this onto playerbase I do not understand? Why does an EPIC dungeon needs to be that hard so that people can't defeat it without a tank?
If you are already making RESTORING weapons whose biggest benefits are only in Barovia area, which I think is a very cheap way to prolong the content BTW, why do they have to be dropped only after Count is defeated in an Epic Dungeon? This weapon becomes extremely class restrictive that way.
Do I want weapon that much to trouble others into babysitting me through the dungeon, taking their time and patience? No, I do not want the weapon that much, especially since after all that effort of
- Finding team
- Getting the dungeon done
- Beating the Count
I have to actually restore the weapons which, wonder oh wonder, have a weekly cap into restoring?
The consensus from all my friends and family members as well as guildies is that it is NOT WORTH IT. I wrote about this in the support for the preview. Making this DUNGEON-only content for the newest weapon makes it a horrible, horrible experience since the playerbase is already divided and forced to play support classes which they do not like or prefer just in order to beat the content. That makes it a job more than a game. It even says A JOB in the queue I think. Jesus Christ!
Thank you, but do not do this anymore as there are classes which are not welcome in the Epic Dungeon queue. Dear developers I URGE YOU to make a SURVEY asking people about how many people actually play the dungeons as their favorite class or whether they are forced into waiting for a DC + OP combo in order to play the game.
This is not diversity, this is exclusivity.
So to sum it up : MOD 14 :
For HUNTS the biggest B R A V O!
For Epic Dungeon, the biggest letdown!
You know me. When something is good I will say that it is good. When something is bad, I will say that it is bad. And the Epic Dungeon content is extremely bad because it's extremely class restrictive. And that restriction falls onto SUPPORT classes.
The system says 3 DPS and 2 Support (Tank + Healer). Is that a joke, ask I? Is that a slap in the face, ask I? That does not happen, ever, whatsoever. Because there is a flaw in the way system works and the way how the content is restrictive to the classes in Neverwinter.
MOD 3 had it good. You get hurt, you drink a health potion, it goes on a cooldown, but you play with friends and family the way you want in the time you want, in the moment you want, the way you want. If it was 5 DPS, it was 5 DPS, no questions asked. Was it harder with bosses? A bit. Was it faster without the support? Not really.
Now? Just horrible, horrible, restrictive experience.
I am a longtime Neverwinter player who plays with a Spell Storm Wizard class. As such I am at a huge disadvantage when it comes around going into any Epic Dungeon with any party. As such I gave up from going into dungeons and I find that necessity to get the new Weapons which only arrive through the quest after Count is defeated a very unpleasant experience. I like playing hunts as an alternative to going to dungeons because I do not want to plunge into the META play again only to find out that it completely changed by the time I invested into perfecting the character creation for the following 6 months. That being said, META demands very specific character options and shuts down anyone else. That meta didn't change at all in the past years. Why? What is the point of it?
The dungeons I did not beat nor play are :
- Spellplague Caverns
- Tomb of the Nine Gods
- Cradle of the Death God
- Castle Ravenloft
And neither did my friends nor family.
Very rarely do people have the patience to allow any newbies to learn and play the new content. Unless I find some kind soul in the game to actually take turns and lead all my friends and family into the new content just to experience it once, it simply won't happen. It is impossible to happen with either LFG or other custom channel options. If you do not play a support role or the highest dps role, you do not play it at all. I know players who run "practice runs" and I congratulate them. Even in the test runs there is META play, so unless I play as a Paladin or Devoted Cleric I can say goodbye to the dungeon.
The latest Castle Ravenloft Epic Dungeon needs a Paladin (Healadin if you will), Two Devoted Clerics and a Guardian Fighter to actually have a decent team with decent survivability options in contrast to the speed of beating the given content. This automatically shuts down my Executioner TR friends in party alongside with me as a Spell Storm Wizard. I have to play as a Master of Flame in order to be actually useful in boss fights. Why is this a necessity? Is that equality? No.
That being said, that is FOUR support classes. The logical choice to follow is either a Warlock or a Great Weapon Fighter as those outdish some astronomical numbers DPS-wise without much effort.
This FORCED EPIC DUNGEON charade started at MOD6, the worst module this game and playerbase ever experienced, and still persists no matter how many nerfs were given to the support classes in the process. It is obvious that it does not work for everyone as people already have the problem of investing a lot of time to beat one dungeon, also to mention occasional disconnects, lags and tendency to get completely wiped out due to how hard the mobs attack in EPIC DUNGEONS.
And as the biggest letdown for me is the inability to play with people I like because of how similar or different our classes are. If I am forced to play a class I do not enjoy just in order to beat the content that is inevitably called - WORKING THE CONTENT. I do not want my FUN TIME to turn into WORK TIME. I do not want to play as a class I do not enjoy playing. Yet, the META demands that and has been demanding it for a long time now.
Given the very positive changes in the recent times with MOD 13 and MOD 14 I was sincerely hoping that the "Bring your own support" method will die out, but it obviously did not as the dungeon runs simply demand having a tank which is a very hard thing to come by.
I can't play without a TANK role. Without a TANK I would need around 500 Scrolls of Mass Life so that I and my friends play as roles we actually enjoy playing, which would make us like the game more, which would make us actually invest money in the things we enjoy logically.
My point is, you've tried too hard since MOD 6 to make people "realize" that tank role is a must, but it looks to me that it outlasted its usefulness and people are getting tired of tank roles altogether. Why force this onto playerbase I do not understand? Why does an EPIC dungeon needs to be that hard so that people can't defeat it without a tank?
If you are already making RESTORING weapons whose biggest benefits are only in Barovia area, which I think is a very cheap way to prolong the content BTW, why do they have to be dropped only after Count is defeated in an Epic Dungeon? This weapon becomes extremely class restrictive that way.
Do I want weapon that much to trouble others into babysitting me through the dungeon, taking their time and patience? No, I do not want the weapon that much, especially since after all that effort of
- Finding team
- Getting the dungeon done
- Beating the Count
I have to actually restore the weapons which, wonder oh wonder, have a weekly cap into restoring?
The consensus from all my friends and family members as well as guildies is that it is NOT WORTH IT. I wrote about this in the support for the preview. Making this DUNGEON-only content for the newest weapon makes it a horrible, horrible experience since the playerbase is already divided and forced to play support classes which they do not like or prefer just in order to beat the content. That makes it a job more than a game. It even says A JOB in the queue I think. Jesus Christ!
Thank you, but do not do this anymore as there are classes which are not welcome in the Epic Dungeon queue. Dear developers I URGE YOU to make a SURVEY asking people about how many people actually play the dungeons as their favorite class or whether they are forced into waiting for a DC + OP combo in order to play the game.
This is not diversity, this is exclusivity.
So to sum it up : MOD 14 :
For HUNTS the biggest B R A V O!
For Epic Dungeon, the biggest letdown!
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
12
Comments
I dont play:
- Spellplague Caverns
- Tomb of the Nine Gods
- Cradle of the Death God
- Castle Ravenloft
And would add in Fangbreaker Island
I fear You and I will never see eye to eye concerning how this game's development is handled. I think (and I'm not alone) that Castle Ravenloft is one of the best dungeons that has come out in the past few years. The dungeons have been pregressively improving starting with Fangbreaker Island. Each dungeon since then has been better and better and more and more what I consider a 'real dungeon' worthy of group content.
For those unwilling to adapt or incapable of doing the current end-game content their are options for them. The Vistani weapons were given to everyone who came to Barovia. They are perfectly capable weapons. Everyone has access to Hunts and Donjon cards which can grant them IL 540 gear, many pieces of which are really quite nice.
Finally I do agree that it would be nice if some classes had more options as to what role they can fill in a dungeon. If a SSCW wants to primary DPS in a grp they should be capable of that and if they want to play MOF they can, same goes for SW. You can still bring 2 dps into CR and succeed, I've done it multiple times. The biggest problem is that almost all buffs/debuffs in this game are far too strong and add/multiply far too well, but that is a discussion for another thread.
A Survey to ask people do they like to play it that way should be a thing because it's been NINE MODULES with the same ratio, changes to both OP and DC powers due to the same problem that goes over and over again never to be fixed finally, which makes both classes a necessity to play with.
It doesn't seem to me that you really understand the problem. If I want to play a specific class in the game that is my right and I do not want to be forced into playing something I do not feel is good for me.
It is not the problem that there is end-game content, it is the problem the necessity to play as a very narrow class choice and optimization, thus inevitably losing the ability to play the game as I'd like it to be and as it is presented, by default, to be playable.
One tank and one healer is fine. The problem is that the tank is the healer, and buffer and mother and father unless you and me are playing different games altogether.
You also strike me a bit contradictory given that you signature lashes against MOD6, with which I completely agree, but if you do remember correctly OP + DC combo was introduced in order to bring in more class diversity. By doing so and making the content that is practically unplayable without the duo, the exclusivity belongs to the OP + DC combo, thus narrowing down all other classes.
In any LFG you will never see that someone calls for a HR or a CW. It is, always, OP + DC + GF since monday. I disagree. In all my DnD experience there is always a way to beat a dungeon without a tank role and this is the case with all of Neverwinter Online. The only place where it is impossible to do so is the Epic Dungeon content.
This means that it is not a good thing as you do not benefit as any other class, but as a tank role you are practically guaranteed the entry since everyone wants you to be their little buff-boi. A human artifact if you will.
I do not agree and I won't spec into another paragon because like that I'm giving all the power to the changes which do not go hand-in-hand with logic-and-brain.
Although I took that off the list since it took 1 hour and 30 minutes to beat it ever since I came back.
I do not think that anyone plays it anymore. Those who did were farming the pet and were selling it for 30.000.000 AD if I recall correctly what my friend told me.
I agree with you callumf and I'm sure that there are other people who always have to wait or call others, sometimes for hours, maybe even days, until the party is ready to go to the Epic Dungeon of any kind, unless it is premade game with people who already have pretty much everything maxed out so they can act like it is all nice and okay.
But the catch is that not everyone plays like that nor has 5-6 DCs in friend list who are specced for Dung content.
The main problem is the necessity for a team of Support roles. This means that Support roles rule the end-game content in 80 : 20 which shouldn't be the case.
The next dungeon on my list will be Spellplague because my gf wants that sweet fashion item from it.
The crux of the issue is that buffs in particular (and debuffs to a lesser extent) are very important to party success. If your dps players all make sure to play their support powers, then the difference compared to a full meta party is not so dramatic.
However, that also requires learning the dungeon mechanics and coordinating your rotations. Some of the most fun I've had is running non-meta parties in hard content. Sure it can take longer than a full meta run, but you get to actually enjoy the action combat system and dungeon mechanics rather than just blowing through them.
If you have special wishes, such as doing 5-man content as support CW then good luck with that, you most likely wont be picked unless you make the party yourself. As a CW, filling the dps spot should be no problem. So the decision lies in your hands, if you wanna play something undesirable or something thats actually wanted.
Yes, meta demands specific party for best results but the dps spot can be taken by any class, imo, without drastic changes. So if you dont play one of the 4 wanted supports play the dps.
Content is specifically designed to have a tank and healer, it says so in the requirements. You can disagree with that, its your choice but doesnt mean devs will agree with you. Tanks role is not there by accident, it has a purpose and doing end game content without tank makes it laughable content.
Fangbreaker Island is not end game content for a longer period now, if it takes more than 1 hour to do it you either play with left foot or you are bad at it. People solo that dungeon in less time now.
I do agree that FBI and MSP can be fun with random parties if you at least have decent tank or decent healer but good luck with such parties in TOMB/CODG/CR.
To try and explain it metaphorically. Lets say the gods of Neverwinter are the devs and their plan is the Divine plan. So, now you pray for something which is not in line with their Divine plan. What do you want them to do? Change the Divine plan? Just for you? Whats good at being gods of Neverwinter if a forum prayer can mess up your Divine plan?
@OP You are accurate in saying that a dungeon in DnD can be overcome without a tank-type but this isn't DnD. It is an MMO (kinda) inspired by DnD and based in a DnD world, but DnD it is not. Most games in this genre follow the holy trinity, some games have tried to get away that and some embrace it. If the players didn't like it more games would move away from the trope, but since we seem to like it, (I know I do) it continues to dominate.
The Neverwinter Dev's have decided to embrace the holy trinity so dungeons are designed this way. I like it, my friends like it. We think its a great idea and the majority of players seem to agree. I am sorry that you want things to be different but I'm afraid you're in the minority.
I never said non-support players are newbies, I simply took your reference to 'newbies' to mean what it actually does: person's new to something, and in this context I figured you meant 'persons new to end-game group content'.
Moving on. In your reference to tanks. I know that when I bring a tank to a dungeon I don't bring them to be 'my little buff-boi' as you put it. I bring a tank to generate threat on enemies and absorb the damage those enemies do because my healer can't take those hits, or my dps can't take those hits. It's all about building a group that is going to work with each other and help each other by excelling in their determined role.
In conclusion. I'm sorry you're having trouble making groups and completing content, I really am. I know a lot of players who are not having the problems you're having and I help lead one of the largest guilds in the game so I hear a lot of the complaints from my members.
My only advice to you is maybe you need to loosen your grip on what you want to play, when I first started playing Neverwinter I wanted to play a ranged dps class and I planned on pvp'ing a lot. The options for ranged dps at the time were very limited so I changed and adapted and now my main is a TR.
When Strongholds was released my guild was struggling with having enough healers online to successfully do Dragonflights so I made a Devotion Paladin alt so that my guild could progress. I didn't do it because I liked it necessarily but I took one for the team so that my friends and guildmates could progress. As I played my paladin more I began to enjoy it more, I embraced it and now I enjoy it quite a bit. 75% of the time I run Cradle now I'm on my paladin because that is what is needed, even though my paladin is 16k and my TR is 18k.
What I'm getting at is that maybe some of your issues with the game have less to do with the game itself and more to do with your expectations of the game. It might be worth it to at least consider that.
Dungeons should have a difficulty setting adjustable by the people, similarly to how it was done with the cards in Hunts. Such system would prove to be amazing for the Dungeon content! What you do not realize or purposefully do not want to realize is that there are people who can't or won't complete any Epic Dungeon without someone literally babysitting them. That is wrong. People should be competent enough to fight with the class of their choice and not simply go with the flow with what is most desirable since anyone and their grandma asks for it in the LFGs of all sorts.
Why shouldn't people who do not play Neverwinter Online elitistically be at such a major disadvantage of not being able to finish a Dungeon in a video-game of their choice? I play with people who already have families and can't really meddle with the specific roles for the best possible party compositions. For some of us the inability to play content is devastating. Can't you understand that? Or is it only what you guys think that is important the most viable choice?
As such investing or making the character that will orient itself towards a very narrow selection of classes with a very specific gear score and items at hand seems to be completely redundant and repelling even for the longtime players like me, let alone people who just jumped into the game itself. It is clearly a major problem many people face.
The direction of the topic is not meant to defy the current meta but to propose a better approach which will lead to a more constructive solutions so that more players would be interested in going to the Epic Dungeons without being purely class-restrictive.
If you want to play a more challenging content because things are boring for you, then let devs make a card for you to use to increase the damage, HP and aggro when you start the dungeon and let it be over with.
If you want to play a less challenging content because Epic Dungeon's design leaves you behind that should be okay too, just use a lesser card or similar so that you do not feel left behind in content.
Neverwinter changes are still not to be trusted. So far this was not the case. The gap between the players who were looking towards finishing the endgame content and the people with the given items and whatnot is tremendous.
As you stated, the meta DEMANDS support roles and demands 4 of them. One OP, Two DCs, One GF.
As for the DPS vs Support CW, a DPS cw is a Support CW, playing the support tree for maximum (de)buff options for entire party, increasing not personal DPS only, but for the entire team.
If venturing and managing to complete such dungeons gives you some form of an "elitist pleasure" that only "few can do", i wholeheartedly disagree with your position and I do not want to have a restrictive access to the end-game content by playing something that meta demands out of me. The reason for this are the recent changes and the developers clear goal to include all classes in the Dungeon oriented content which corresponds to the buffs and changes which were done to the CW class in MOD 13.
Perhaps there is a valid and constructive solution to this which relies in players choice to make a dungeon harder or easier by using specific cards (or items) similarly to how it was done with the hunts.
"My only advice to you is maybe you need to loosen your grip on what you want to play"
Thanks for the advice but I can 100% tell you that such a thing is never going to happen. That is the opposite effect and I immediately lose all interest in playing the game if I am obliged to play as another class. I shouldn't feel a penalty for playing a specific class over people who play many. There is no rule saying that anyone should play a specific class when going to a dungeon, so this is a job for the balancing of the content.
The Epic Dungeons are proving to be a menace for people who do not play this game like elitists. I do not see why it should be like that.
"Yes, meta demands specific party for best results but the dps spot can be taken by any class, imo, without drastic changes. So if you dont play one of the 4 wanted supports play the dps."
How about - change 4 support necessity? Would that be too hard? Or read the topic?
Unless you have a way to fit all 8 classes into 5-man content someone will always sit out and some classes will always be preferred over the others.
Again, you can play any content, make the party yourself. There are better buffers than CW so leave the buffing to them and try doing the pure DPS role. Even if u stay with your hybrid role you can do content if you make party yourself but u will force 4 others to run with mediocre buff and mediocre dps.
You absolutely can join 10-man content, even 2 CW's are not rare in CODG runs.
Meta parties dont fall out of the sky, they are created so create it yourself as well. You will most likely have better results than waiting to get invited.
One of the main problems with the support meta, as others have mentioned, is that 80% of players would rather play DPS, while 80% of the people that GET to play end content are support. Class balancing would help a little bit, otherwise they might as well just get rid of every DPS class that's not GWF. Class balance though would barely scratch the surface of the real underlying problem: Buffs are just too damn good. I'm not talking about "Terrifying Insight is too good" or "Into the Fray is too good", I'm talking about how they stack. More specifically, the fact that buffs multiply each other.
I've looked at this for a long time now, and buffs multiplying pops out as the core problem behind the support meta. Not only that, it also fueled the Bonding nerf and other problems. It creates a spike where certain groups can melt a boss in seconds, which makes the devs cry (rightfully so) and makes those players cry for ever harder and harder content that no one else would have a prayer at. Nerfing support powers, feats, and gear would solve nothing. I'm pretty convinced the support meta will never change until buffs are changed to be additive instead of multiplying. Until then, 1 DPS with 4/9 support will always be the optimal party comp. I also think power sharing (and stat sharing in general) needs to go. That was the core reason Bondings had to be nerfed, but that was just putting a band-aid on cancer.
---
As archangel indirectly touched on, part of the divide between who sees a problem here and who doesn't is D&D players vs. MMO players. MMO players are perfectly fine with meta comps, the "holy trinity", carefully constructed parties, etc. D&D players, generally, want to play what they want to play, want *others* to play what *they* want to play, and go out and kill stuff together. People who play D&D in the MMO style are frequently derided as munchkins, powergamers, min-maxers, etc. There has classically been a desire/need for *someone* to play a healer, but the game has been moving away from that direction for a long time because a lot of people never liked being brow-beat into playing the party's "Heal HAMSTER". In Neverwinter, anyone who doesn't have the perfectly min-maxed, munchkin DPS character is being brow-beat into being that player's "Support HAMSTER". LOL, the irony is that I actually don't mind playing support classes in table top D&D because I have the freedom to play them creatively, but in video games it just makes me want to cry.
At the very least, they could start adding (Normal) versions of the newer dungeons/trial with lower rewards so the rest of us can actually experience that content the devs create, instead of just having to go watch a youtube video.
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
This is wrong and shouldn't be like that. Other than some players in the guild with "friends at high places" I can pretty much guarantee that the majority of players didn't go pass Sisters. I got bored yesterday not being able to find a team, so I went into a private queue and went alone. Took me some time to clear the bridge of the horseman luring them one by one. My friends later on joined.
Interestingly, the horseman have a DEMOUNT mechanic which seems to either trigger once enough damage is done in a single instance of what seems to go up to two seconds or with GWF powers specifically. The latter being bad.
As for the weapons you get them through the quest which I think is called "The Devil's Due" given by Ezmeralda in the heart of Barovian village. I did not notice an account-based unlock of the Artifact Weapons, but I did notice that it was an Orb and Amulet, typical for the specific class of Control Wizard. I think that a safe bet is to say that content is not open on Account. To open it you will have to go with each class separately. At least this is what I believe to be true as I do not have the means to beat the dungeon, yet. Thank you for your much appreciated input. You really hit a nail there. I have been thinking for a long time about the main problem with the Support meta and I realize it is the way the content is created with the permanent damage reduction. I do not see it being made for the majority of the players, it looks like it is made for some very support-friendly people who barely made 0.01% of entire Neverwinter Online content. I agree with this statement. Nerfing wouldn't benefit anyone. The power sharing definitely needs to go, but this is a very complicated thing since people invested quite a bit for the sake of power sharing. It's a huge pickle. But then again even if it gave just like 1000 extra Power, people would still use it and consider it BiS and Meta. Whatever the case at the very least I think we can agree that the ways this is happening is simply broken to the point of being exclusive to the selected few.
The way Epic Dungeon party composition is set really isn't healthy. Previous nerfs to Bondings, Power Sharing and Support Classes in general did not improve the game. Nothing changed other than numbers dished out. And in those numbers dished out GWF stands supreme as the go-to class for the Epic Dungeon content due to how fast it's at-will makes millions upon millions of damage with ease. It is like an Automatic Disintegrate from CW or rather constant SoD from TR. But I think that this is due to how good the damage is at GWF. If anything, this class should cost something like 20.000 ZEN to unlock. It is just that good in comparison to other DPS classes in the Epic Dungeon.
For the moment I will absent from the topic and hopefully more people will come and share their experience with the Epic Dungeon content and honestly state how many times they went or whether it was "fun" playing a support class which felt more like a job than a fun experience.
I do not see people playing Epic Dungeon content. Mr. Blur, you are not helping by offering people to play content that is not Epic Dungeon. Apparently you are okay with the necessity to have 4 support characters in the Epic Dungeon content. You are not providing any reason why that is the best case scenario nor providing the arguments to why this is an ideal thing to happen. This topic is for the sake of finding out the core problematics of the Epic Dungeon party composition.
It seems that you do not understand that it is not about privately making party, it is about the arbitrary necessity to bring 4 support classes in order to have a good chance at beating the content. This particular thing or form had been going for some time now and some drastic changes need to occur so that people can finally enjoy dungeons without necessarily being held by Paladin and Devoted Cleric in every Epic Dungeon. This forced agenda is simply not working for the people. The amount of Paladins and Devoted Clerics to the ratio of the DPS classes is rather low and people stopped or disliked to be doing that for the previous 9 mods. It becomes old. It becomes unnecessary. I want to point this out because I believe that currently there is a team of very good developers who will hear the plea of players who were or are still unable to play the Epic Dungeon content due to how hard the mobs hit.
You see, the main problem here is not the inability to play, it is the necessity to take a specific class into the content. Imagine that there is the Control Wizard's ability to freeze the group of mobs for 10 sec no matter the number of mobs thrown at the party. Then imagine that you are instantaneously fighting, as a group, some 300 adds. If you want to have some surviving chances you immediately need to bring a CW to cast Icy Terrain or other push-pull mechanics and keep the adds at bay. You see, something similar was the case before and then people were complaining and complaining and complaining how they couldn't go to the dungeon because people could only defeat content with the CWs. Then with MOD6 the Elite monsters couldn't be frozen anymore. Their freezing status is connected to their Damage Reduction status, so more Damage Reduction they have, less time for them to become frozen. One of the main things which makes a good CW is hitting a Frozen target. This is not the case in Epic Dungeons nor with the bosses. This makes a CW to be crippled.
Yes, I am complaining since my class got nerfed to oblivion and back thanks to the META. And meta orients towards the content.
"Meta parties dont fall out of the sky, they are created so create it yourself as well. You will most likely have better results than waiting to get invited."
You do not seem to understand the topic at hand. I do not want to create meta party.
If you want to run a dungeon the way you want to then YOU have to make the group. I do it all the time and I've had no issue. I hate running meta, I like to experience different kind of party comp and how each one performs and what limits there are. But if I join a pug then of course I don't get any say in it because I'm not the leader.
As a DPS you need to be the one starting groups, especially if you are an "undesirable". If you don't or are unwilling to do it, then just pack up and play another game because the only ones who will get groups from waiting for others is DC, OP (and also GF) Either you take initiative and form groups, be in a guild which doesn't care for the meta or just do as you are doing and stroll around in lower tier dungeons waiting for someone to give you a handout that may/will never come.
As a GF who only had 1 spot in the current codg meta, it was impossible to get a group if I waited around because of the abundance of GFs. I had to form my own codg groups to farm it, and forming a trial that "requires" 2/3 DCs + 2 OPs is alot harder than making a 5 man group, so I don't see the problem.
And lastly, it only takes 1 person to show the rest how to do a dungeon. I had to show 4 people a CR run for the first time, and I myself was new to some of the mechanics so there was a lot of trial and error. Sure, it took over an hour, but it was fun learning things together for the first time.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
I didnt tell you to create meta party i told you to create your own party, since metas are also created by someone.
Composition is not that specific. 1 tank is needed and you can pick OP or GF, if you want to tank bosses with cloth wearing class thats your opinion which devs dont agree with. 1 healer is needed and you can pick OP, DC or SW. If you want to heal with some other class thats again your opinion which devs dont support.
You can absolutely go in with 1 tank and 1 healer and have 3 dps and do any content. It will be harder but doable. You can do TOMB and CODG even without tank roles, CR is the only 1 that really demands it but its totally fine for latest content.
You complain that CW is crippled since it cannot freeze bosses. Last time i checked CW was beating GWF in boss fights. Problem is you. Could it be your hybrid choice of playstyle?
Which, in typical Cryptic fashion, means that in order to restore the Sunset weapons, you have to show that you don't even need them in the first place.
Take it like this - In hunts I can bring whoever I want into the party.
In Epic Dungeons I have to bring 4 support and 1 dps. That's essentially the horrible experience. Just because people got used to that doesn't mean that it is the right choice.
By the time September/October comes those weapons will be old news.
Generally speaking what ruins the experience for many is that their favourite way to play is not in demand, or was nerfed into oblivion, or made obsolete. And if you do not adapt, you are locked out of some portion of game content.
For developers this is simply war with numbers: for every person chased away you d better lure another, but there is no way everyone can be happy at the same time.
and a little bit of sarcasm: I really love the recommendation "if you do not like to play support, play pure dps". That is actually really hard thing to do in such competitive place with couple of mods old weapons at your disposal. Take it from someone who somehow cannot not fall in cradle. Cradle is simply out of my reach, so is the weapon upgrade. And the next top weapon is locked behind the newest dung, oh great.
Yes, support role is the only thing I can dream of for a long time now and I do not see a way out of it. Luckily for me I am comfortable like that, but I can see why others might feel cut off.
Yes, you can take whatever you want to Hunts, because hunts are lower tier content. Epic dungeons are not nor should they be.
You seem to want the top tier content in this game to be as easy as the low tier content. That would be a very, very boring game.
Listen, there is content available for people who don't want to be challenged. If you don't want to be challenged play that content and until your willing to put forth the extra effort to complete the more challenging content you don't get to complain that you can't. It's as simple as that.
Are you suggesting to remove the need for tanks or healers/mitigators in the game? It used to be like that, when people ran 5x CW groups. And that was far less healthy for the game than what is happening right now.
Honestly it sounds like you are just whining for the sake of it and will no even attempt to find a solution to your problems.
and also the featured satirical comedic adventure "A Call for Heroes".
To get what you want would mean going back to a time when better than 1/3 of the classes were rendered irrelevant in end game dungeons. Maybe that would be great for you if your preference is DPS, but it completely ignores what that change would do to players who don't focus on DPS classes.
This, what @kemnimtarkas said, even if i don't play an Gf, i could also still remember the bad situations some classes were.
Let's take a few looks back in the history of NW...
Mod0/1/2 Cn...and let's take Tr as class, the only "viable" Tr back then was the so called "Runner" wich means an perma stealth Tr with some feats/classfeats for runspeed. An skilled "runner" could bypass all adds/bosses up to the Endboss, meanwhile the Rest of teh party were waiting at the first campfire, making jokes, drinking coffee or had some "sexy time" with their partner. (Well last point depends how fast the Tr was).
Mod1 VT, the first classes with the dread legion weapons/gear were...Cw and Hr, bc they could attack Val from range and could disable the caskets, noone was looking for Melee classes
Mod 3/4/5..now the Cw starts to really shine, as @kemnimtarkas said, far superior to other classes, no need for heal bc of lifesteal, able to get rid as fast as possible with adds and even bosses...so everyone and their Mother was asking for Cw, up to an point that they could solo everything.
Mod 4? can't remember correctly, SW came up, for me broken from the beginning, bc of the T1/T2 set bonus and not to mention the Illyanbruen Set, the smartest Sw's back then had both, for adds and Bosses.
Mod 5 Tr rework and the broken SoD, heck back then i could simply jump in the air and evryone including the innocent tree nearby had an Sod Procc on it. Too bad many fellow Tr starts to explot it bc they changed their vorpal for an plaguefire enchant..
Mod 5 in a nutshell: High geared players starts soloing every content..
Mod 6...ok the rise of the silver surf..i mean Swordmaster Gwf..and the Bubblepala...and the haste Dc...so this was the time so many partys were in need of an Bubbledin, an Haste Dc so the Bubbledin could bubblewopple and as many Gwf they could find..and exploit something like Ecc Traven, bc ToS was too hard....
New Cn: Could remember an run with an befriended Gf, i was making the party and i forgot to set up on privat..surprisingly i had an disconnect, and an Hr joined, his first comment was not "Hi Guys"...it was "Kick the Gf we need an Op, bc Gf couldn't tank Orcus properly!!!".....
Mod 8/9 maybe?
The bugged Puppet Sw was back, and even the legit played Sw could dish out an really nice dps.
And the first dps Gf came up and also the first "meta partys".
Mod 10/11/12/13/14 Meta Partys are common more casual oriented players are looking for high ilvl, smarter people don't care, for them it is more important, wich sort of gear people have. (Hunt Stuff for example)
So my personal advice is, for small guilds (be it SH Rank or Members), it doesn't make sense anymore to build up three or more "Dps" chars, it is far more smarter to gear up also one or two "supporter", so you could easy rotate on an "dungeon run day/evening" between your favourite dps char and an support char.
And like @archangelzorak01 said, it was never so easy to gear up an dps or support char than nowadays, be it with hunt gear from Bonjovia or even Seal of the Brave.
Please don't try to argue the point that you NEED 4 supports and 1 dps to finish the end-game content in this game. That is ridiculous.
Having that ^ party composition just makes a run faster, easier, and honestly TOO EASY!
I sympathize with players who are struggling to find groups, I mean that. Honestly though, all you need to do is make some friends and run content with them. Don't waste your time spamming the enclave if you are not getting invites.
Please do not try to reduce end-game content difficulty. What we need are dungeons that challenge those "meta-built" groups. Sure, there should be easy content for casual players, but we also need content that isn't such a joke for stronger teams. I want to go into a dungeon with a nearly full optimized party and struggle for 1-2 hours. Then I want good rewards. The rewards from running content like this should match the time invested in character development, team coordination, and all the wipes.
Again, you don't need 4 support and 1 dps to run the end-game dungeons in this game, end of story.
Example:
5 DPS turn ToNG into a JOKE (love this video btw)
You see I disagree that the game benefits older and more elite players here, it does not. The game is extremely friendly to the newer players and the only place where it is not is Epic Dungeons (maybe pvp but that's different aesthetics and problematics altogether).
PvP and PvE should have different set of powers to actually have some meaning so that we do not have issues like recently with SoD nor issues where all CWs lost CC powers because some PvP crazies were QQing on the forum how wizards are OP in PvP.
All that aside, the point of the topic is not to reduce the hard gameplay for those who want to play harder stuff. The point of the topic is that exclusivity shouldn't befall certain classes and those classes are right now OP and DC. And have been for some time now. This whole premise is a horrible idea and it does not work because it brings more issues to the classes overall.
Every change, everything practically wrong or bad in this game since MOD6 is because of the faulty mechanics of Epic Dungeons which do not benefit all classes.
Now, you say that INTRODUCING CC is bad? Why? What gives a Paladin the right to share a lot of power? What gives a Devoted Cleric the right to (DE)buff enemies and allies? Why are their powers good and CWs powers bad? Who are you to decide what is easy and what is not? The very control is the core function of the Control Wizard. The name itself says it all.
Do not play with Paladins and Devoted Clerics, then, mr. HERO and I would like to just see how far will you get in a dungeon. Instead, play with a bunch of 13K IL characters the newest Dungeon without any of the SUPPORT characters in the party. Just plain damage.
When you beat the content "the way devs imagined" with a bunch of 13K IL characters please come back and show a video, especially if you can manage to do it in less than one hour.
There's talk and there's crazy talk. The META does not play with 5 TRs. End of story.
CC is the core function of a Control Wizard. Many powers of a Control Wizard are purely Control oriented, but not used at all because of how ineffective they are in Epic Dungeon content.
I think that it is a cheap thing to bring a Paladin into the queue or a DC for that matter. Play with just your own strength without any Power Sharing then. And no Bonding Runestones then.
You're just portraying how biased and exclusive you believe things should be ran and at this point I do not find any further discussion with you appealing since you do not appreciate nor understand the class I'm playing with.
CC exists in the game so do not pretend like it doesn't.
Edit : You are basically saying : Tank is a must, but Wizard isn't. That's highly biased and arrogant.