The TR has received a lot of reworks recently: buffs to powers, with a fantastic buff to Shadow of Demise. It is not just guides and ‘image’ that helped promote the TR into the single-target damage dealer of this day, but actual Dev reworks to the class.
This is 100% incorrect. Please do check the patch notes, and time line. The only single relevant change is to SoD and this one was ~3 weeks ago. And we are talking at longer time spans, a year for example..
You are joking right? 100%? Care to explain to me these changes below after a quick search?
So the following were the changes to the TR just this year. I couldn't be bothered going back further, because you are already absolutely incorrect about this. I highlighted all the improvements in red for you to see easier. Perhaps you won't be so forgetful and forget about these next time?
Perhaps you should check the patch notes, and the time line, and get back to me when you have a logical order of events in place. And yeah, go back a year and tell me then. Or stop wasting your time trying to justify yourself to me when you are the one who is 100% incorrect.
Trickster Rogue Duelist's Flurry can now trigger weapon enhancements with each hit against the target.Not used - we use sly + vorpal /fey Gloaming Cut: This power's tooltip has been updated to clarify its functionality. Functionality has not changed. Impact Shot now deals approximately 20% more damage.Not used Impact Shot now calculates based on the correct amount of charges left; it had previously thought the player had fewer charges than they actually did. Oppressive Darkness: An issue has been fixed where the rank-up values were providing much more damage than intended. To compensate for this change, the base damage has been increased, and this power now scales with player stats.Not used Path of the Blade can now proc the Lostmauth's Vengeance effect.Not used Path of the Blade now procs weapon enchantments on the first hit only. Path of the Blade now deals an extra tick of damage.Not used Path of the Blade now hits up to 5 targets, increased from 3.Not used Razor Action now has a 30' radius at rank 1, and no longer increases by 5' per rank. Razor Action no longer deals Piercing damage. Razor Action now scales with buffs / Power.Not used Razor Action: The artifact off-hand bonus for this power has been redesigned. It now increases Damage and Run Speed by 2% for each target hit by Razor Action.Not used Shadow of Demise: This effect now only takes into account the damage dealt by the Trickster Rogue who applied it, even when several are applied at once.This is actually a 'nerf' - it used to count one TR damage and all the damage of the other TR except a proccing hit = big number Shadowborn: This feat has been changed to the following effect: Whenever you enter stealth, your next encounter or daily power deals an additional 5/10/15/20/25% damage as physical damage.Not used Shadowy Opportunity now deals 10/20/30/40/50% weapon damage, down from 20/40/60/80/100%, but now scales with player stats.Not used Sly Flourish now increases enemy damage taken by 10%, rather than reducing enemy armor.Tooltip change only Smoke Bomb now procs weapon enchantments on the first hit. Smoke Bomb now deals an extra tick of damage. Damage for each tick has been reduced to compensate for the extra tick. Tenacious Concealment: This power now grants 20% Stealth Loss reduction and 5% Stealth Regeneration at each rank.Not used Tenacious Concealment: This power no longer grants Stealth Regeneration while taking damage.Not used Tenacious Concealment: Rank 4 of this power should now properly function.Not used Tenacious Concealment: The Artifact Off-hand bonus has been increased to 20% Stealth Loss reduction.Not used
Trickster Rogue Shadow of Demise now deals 75% of the damage that triggered it as a 5-second Damage over Time (DoT) effect. When Shadow of Demise ends, it now deals 75% of the damage dealt over its duration, increased from 50%. However, this value is now calculated based on mitigated damage, rather than damage before mitigation. As a result, compared to before, Shadow of Demise deals less damage against enemies with high damage reduction, and more damage against enemies with low damage reduction. Shadowborn: This feat now provides a bonus of 7/14/21/28/35% on your next strike after stealth, increased from 5/10/15/20/25%.Not used - The most useless t5 feat, you know that we don't use t5 exe feats.. Smoke Bomb: This power's CC now works with diminishing returns in PvP.
For your connivance Iv'e marked in blue what is 100% irrelevant as it is not used, useless before the patch, and remains useless after it.
So do tell, how these patch notes changed anything? The only relevant is SoD from mod14 change, and as I've said, I refer to before that change. For example consoles do not have it yet, we can take them as example.
So please, lets not jump ahead of the carriage... Or it may run over..
Post edited by micky1p00 on
3
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
What concerns me are those CW that don’t have the networks that you or I do. Where are they to begin?
Same place we all began, and succeeded, don't forget that a new player doesn't start at CR, they start at CN and go to FBI.
I'll say that this is a major issue of older content made less and less relevant. While it is natural that some things will be outdated, there must be a linear progress path for people to get experience, learn their class, and always have appropriate challenge for their current progress. NW doesn't excel at this. Yet, still, guilds, channels, and still functioning lower tier content like CN, FBI all available to cover this point.
The learning curve for a CW seems to me much harder for DPS than any other DPS class at the moment, barring the SW.
Sorry, I guess we all biased and what not, but I wouldn't say DPS CW has a much harder learning curve than the rest. And I do play CW... ( But far less than main, as a personal preference, that I don't have the energy to keep up-to date )
You are trying to understand the perspective of a CW without really playing a CW as a main yourself?
Yes, and I'm playing/was playing CW successfully, hence the disagreement that it has the highest learning curve. Also you can use the same argument on yourself, you are comparing it to the rest of the classes without maining them?
Also what I play or not play is not relevant, again, feel free to correct what I'm wrong at, or not. Maybe my not 'main' CW is more game-time and better understanding of the class than others who main it? Maybe I address other concerns that are not CW specific?
If your only intention is to get enough CW buffs to eliminate the need for any other class, or change everything to controllable, regardless of what it do to the game as a whole, and players at other game level, then indeed this discussion is a waste of time.
Because CWs were the dominant class 8 or so Mods ago, does that mean that they will be stuck in their position forever? I joined just in the middle of Mod 5, when the CW was already on the wane. When Mod 6 hit, control became practically useless, and the Storm Spell nerfs began. I guess I was ‘lucky’ that I got to experience the last remnants of control in Mod 5, for example the old Spellplague caverns. I know those days are long gone.
My point is, why should I, or any new CW player, who never experienced this “CW superiority”, yet enjoy playing a Wizard class, suffer because of our class’ former dominance? I haven’t done anything wrong, so why do people (and I am not specifying you) continue to use that example against me or others like me to justify the current state of the CW?
CW was very dominant when lightning procced on all the encounter ticks and not a single time, this was recent.
But that's besides the point, actually that was not the point at all. The point is when asking for a change, lets not overdo some things and screw the game for the rest of us. There are some absurd requests here, please give it all a fresh read in general terms not as CW, and you will see it too.
CW was very dominant!?! LOL!
You didn't even 'main' a CW (which you have admitted). CW were not dominant before the lightning enchantment nerfs - they were already middling and on the decline.
1. What is my main has to do with my ability to see what is the meta? Please focus on the point, or you want also discuss my blond hair and blue eyes? You can disagree/disprove what I'm saying or agree, "LOL" or a discussion about what I do will not do either in regards of CW capability.
2. Lightning CW was not short on DPS, unfortunately bloody course didn't work to full effectiveness. Which created the discrepancy of FBI vs Tomb, and CW vs GWF (at that time). Comparing (As much as comparing can be done) without bloody curse, and they were similar)
The TR has received a lot of reworks recently: buffs to powers, with a fantastic buff to Shadow of Demise. It is not just guides and ‘image’ that helped promote the TR into the single-target damage dealer of this day, but actual Dev reworks to the class.
This is 100% incorrect. Please do check the patch notes, and time line. The only single relevant change is to SoD and this one was ~3 weeks ago. And we are talking at longer time spans, a year for example..
Ivory tower eh? You know how much time it takes to organize a guild, custom channels, moderate large channels like /legit used to be at its prime, large discords, write a proper guide, or explain people stuff, from char mechanics to new dungeons? I've probably took more new people to CR/Tomb and explained each one what and where to do than you ran it at all. Or explained the same things about the game, classes, dungeons, and what not. you don't see me whine about the little man. I do things to actually help ( hopefully).
What strikes me odd, @micky1p00, is that you claim to be a leader of a, "guild, custom channels, moderate large channels, large discords", yet when people put opinions differing to yours (like the OP's post and a few others), you shoot them down?
I would have thought if other players have different opinions you would take time to listen, comment and not antagonise them.
The original post was that the OP is experiencing a problem. While there have been some good comments, e.g. finding an alliance, guild, building a network ... some other comments have just been a bit counterproductive. While I do hope that we can get into a more productive conversation, calling some of my ideas "absurd" without reference or qualifying statements is really taking it a bit far, and then condescendingly telling me to "read my own post" to find out what those "absurd" ideas are, is really offensive.
It strikes me odd, that you choose to take my post to someone else, with relevance to something they did in game, as ad-hominem against me. You want to address a point, address a point. PS I didn't tell you to go and read your own posts nor I called your ideas absurd. I've told you to re-read the thread and suggestions not in an eyes of a CW but in the perspective of global balance of players, difficulty and interest in the game, and how some suggestions affect that. And I still stand by that request, this thread is not only about CWs, and not only as a buff request to CW, there are other aspects here that you ignore and focus your problem which is CW buff request (may it be valid or not).
Do you find that doing dungeons without the need of a tank for example but 5 arbitrary class in random specs a good thing ? And the difficulty balanced towards that?
Gosh, you asked me outright what I want, and so I responded to you! Then you are saying that I'm only making it about the CW! LOL.
I don't know what you are trying to justify now ... I don't know if I want to get embroiled in something like this. You ask a question and you get a response. Then you say my response is attacking you?
Do you find that doing dungeons without the need of a tank for example but 5 arbitrary class in random specs a good thing ? And the difficulty balanced towards that?
Surely this is a rhetorical question. Or are you asking me a leading question for other reasons? What good are you trying to get from this?
What concerns me are those CW that don’t have the networks that you or I do. Where are they to begin?
Same place we all began, and succeeded, don't forget that a new player doesn't start at CR, they start at CN and go to FBI.
I'll say that this is a major issue of older content made less and less relevant. While it is natural that some things will be outdated, there must be a linear progress path for people to get experience, learn their class, and always have appropriate challenge for their current progress. NW doesn't excel at this. Yet, still, guilds, channels, and still functioning lower tier content like CN, FBI all available to cover this point.
The learning curve for a CW seems to me much harder for DPS than any other DPS class at the moment, barring the SW.
Sorry, I guess we all biased and what not, but I wouldn't say DPS CW has a much harder learning curve than the rest. And I do play CW... ( But far less than main, as a personal preference, that I don't have the energy to keep up-to date )
You are trying to understand the perspective of a CW without really playing a CW as a main yourself?
Yes, and I'm playing/was playing CW successfully, hence the disagreement that it has the highest learning curve. Also you can use the same argument on yourself, you are comparing it to the rest of the classes without maining them?
Also what I play or not play is not relevant, again, feel free to correct what I'm wrong at, or not. Maybe my not 'main' CW is more game-time and better understanding of the class than others who main it? Maybe I address other concerns that are not CW specific?
If your only intention is to get enough CW buffs to eliminate the need for any other class, or change everything to controllable, regardless of what it do to the game as a whole, and players at other game level, then indeed this discussion is a waste of time.
Because CWs were the dominant class 8 or so Mods ago, does that mean that they will be stuck in their position forever? I joined just in the middle of Mod 5, when the CW was already on the wane. When Mod 6 hit, control became practically useless, and the Storm Spell nerfs began. I guess I was ‘lucky’ that I got to experience the last remnants of control in Mod 5, for example the old Spellplague caverns. I know those days are long gone.
My point is, why should I, or any new CW player, who never experienced this “CW superiority”, yet enjoy playing a Wizard class, suffer because of our class’ former dominance? I haven’t done anything wrong, so why do people (and I am not specifying you) continue to use that example against me or others like me to justify the current state of the CW?
CW was very dominant when lightning procced on all the encounter ticks and not a single time, this was recent.
But that's besides the point, actually that was not the point at all. The point is when asking for a change, lets not overdo some things and screw the game for the rest of us. There are some absurd requests here, please give it all a fresh read in general terms not as CW, and you will see it too.
CW was very dominant!?! LOL!
You didn't even 'main' a CW (which you have admitted). CW were not dominant before the lightning enchantment nerfs - they were already middling and on the decline.
1. What is my main has to do with my ability to see what is the meta? Please focus on the point, or you want also discuss my blond hair and blue eyes? You can disagree/disprove what I'm saying or agree, "LOL" or a discussion about what I do will not do either in regards of CW capability.
2. Lightning CW was not short on DPS, unfortunately bloody course didn't work to full effectiveness. Which created the discrepancy of FBI vs Tomb, and CW vs GWF (at that time). Comparing (As much as comparing can be done) without bloody curse, and they were similar)
The TR has received a lot of reworks recently: buffs to powers, with a fantastic buff to Shadow of Demise. It is not just guides and ‘image’ that helped promote the TR into the single-target damage dealer of this day, but actual Dev reworks to the class.
This is 100% incorrect. Please do check the patch notes, and time line. The only single relevant change is to SoD and this one was ~3 weeks ago. And we are talking at longer time spans, a year for example..
Read my post above.
I've addressed that.
I cannot believe the number of assumptions you make. I also main other classes besides the CW.
I don't think I can take you seriously very much any more if you continue to argue with assumptions rather than logic, reason and facts.
Re: TRs have received more than just the SoD buff this year - from your perspective, those powers are not used. Well, they are used, and yes I know because I also look at ACT logs and see them being used. Just because you do not use them does not mean others do not - that is a logical fallacy and borders on solipsism.
But to bring the point about "Lighting CW" I am not referring to the Spell Storm CW, but rather the lightning enchantment proc:
2. Lightning CW was not short on DPS, unfortunately bloody course didn't work to full effectiveness. Which created the discrepancy of FBI vs Tomb, and CW vs GWF (at that time). Comparing (As much as comparing can be done) without bloody curse, and they were similar)
I'm not sure what you are referring to here, as it seems to be jumping to a different argument entirely! You are harder to catch than a MI Sab in PvP!
Ivory tower eh? You know how much time it takes to organize a guild, custom channels, moderate large channels like /legit used to be at its prime, large discords, write a proper guide, or explain people stuff, from char mechanics to new dungeons? I've probably took more new people to CR/Tomb and explained each one what and where to do than you ran it at all. Or explained the same things about the game, classes, dungeons, and what not. you don't see me whine about the little man. I do things to actually help ( hopefully).
What strikes me odd, @micky1p00, is that you claim to be a leader of a, "guild, custom channels, moderate large channels, large discords", yet when people put opinions differing to yours (like the OP's post and a few others), you shoot them down?
I would have thought if other players have different opinions you would take time to listen, comment and not antagonise them.
The original post was that the OP is experiencing a problem. While there have been some good comments, e.g. finding an alliance, guild, building a network ... some other comments have just been a bit counterproductive. While I do hope that we can get into a more productive conversation, calling some of my ideas "absurd" without reference or qualifying statements is really taking it a bit far, and then condescendingly telling me to "read my own post" to find out what those "absurd" ideas are, is really offensive.
It strikes me odd, that you choose to take my post to someone else, with relevance to something they did in game, as ad-hominem against me. You want to address a point, address a point. PS I didn't tell you to go and read your own posts nor I called your ideas absurd. I've told you to re-read the thread and suggestions not in an eyes of a CW but in the perspective of global balance of players, difficulty and interest in the game, and how some suggestions affect that. And I still stand by that request, this thread is not only about CWs, and not only as a buff request to CW, there are other aspects here that you ignore and focus your problem which is CW buff request (may it be valid or not).
Do you find that doing dungeons without the need of a tank for example but 5 arbitrary class in random specs a good thing ? And the difficulty balanced towards that?
Gosh, you asked me outright what I want, and so I responded to you! Then you are saying that I'm only making it about the CW! LOL.
I don't know what you are trying to justify now ... I don't know if I want to get embroiled in something like this. You ask a question and you get a response. Then you say my response is attacking you?
Please ...
What the hell you talk about? I've responded to exactly what was quoted. You took a part of my response to someone else, and want something from me.
Where I had issue with your response before that one? I've asked and you responded, and part of the discussion I've asked you to re-read the thread again (not your posts) and look at it not as CW but in general terms.
You took it into personal parts, quoted irrelevant things, that not relevant to this CW discussion or the thread. Now you jumped to a post from last week, that no one has issue with?
I have no clue what you want... Why you now bring up that post?
Ivory tower eh? You know how much time it takes to organize a guild, custom channels, moderate large channels like /legit used to be at its prime, large discords, write a proper guide, or explain people stuff, from char mechanics to new dungeons? I've probably took more new people to CR/Tomb and explained each one what and where to do than you ran it at all. Or explained the same things about the game, classes, dungeons, and what not. you don't see me whine about the little man. I do things to actually help ( hopefully).
What strikes me odd, @micky1p00, is that you claim to be a leader of a, "guild, custom channels, moderate large channels, large discords", yet when people put opinions differing to yours (like the OP's post and a few others), you shoot them down?
I would have thought if other players have different opinions you would take time to listen, comment and not antagonise them.
The original post was that the OP is experiencing a problem. While there have been some good comments, e.g. finding an alliance, guild, building a network ... some other comments have just been a bit counterproductive. While I do hope that we can get into a more productive conversation, calling some of my ideas "absurd" without reference or qualifying statements is really taking it a bit far, and then condescendingly telling me to "read my own post" to find out what those "absurd" ideas are, is really offensive.
It strikes me odd, that you choose to take my post to someone else, with relevance to something they did in game, as ad-hominem against me. You want to address a point, address a point. PS I didn't tell you to go and read your own posts nor I called your ideas absurd. I've told you to re-read the thread and suggestions not in an eyes of a CW but in the perspective of global balance of players, difficulty and interest in the game, and how some suggestions affect that. And I still stand by that request, this thread is not only about CWs, and not only as a buff request to CW, there are other aspects here that you ignore and focus your problem which is CW buff request (may it be valid or not).
Do you find that doing dungeons without the need of a tank for example but 5 arbitrary class in random specs a good thing ? And the difficulty balanced towards that?
Gosh, you asked me outright what I want, and so I responded to you! Then you are saying that I'm only making it about the CW! LOL.
I don't know what you are trying to justify now ... I don't know if I want to get embroiled in something like this. You ask a question and you get a response. Then you say my response is attacking you?
Please ...
What the hell you talk about? I've responded to exactly what was quoted. You took a part of my response to someone else, and want something from me.
Where I had issue with your response before that one? I've asked and you responded, and part of the discussion I've asked you to re-read the thread again (not your posts) and look at it not as CW but in general terms.
You took it into personal parts, quoted irrelevant things, that not relevant to this CW discussion or the thread. Now you jumped to a post from last week, that no one has issue with?
I have no clue what you want... Why you now bring up that post?
I was away for a week, lol, then I read your post. That's why it was delayed.
I'm laughing.
Sorry, for how it might seem. Really, can we just drop it for now? I think we are going in circles.
What concerns me are those CW that don’t have the networks that you or I do. Where are they to begin?
Same place we all began, and succeeded, don't forget that a new player doesn't start at CR, they start at CN and go to FBI.
I'll say that this is a major issue of older content made less and less relevant. While it is natural that some things will be outdated, there must be a linear progress path for people to get experience, learn their class, and always have appropriate challenge for their current progress. NW doesn't excel at this. Yet, still, guilds, channels, and still functioning lower tier content like CN, FBI all available to cover this point.
The learning curve for a CW seems to me much harder for DPS than any other DPS class at the moment, barring the SW.
Sorry, I guess we all biased and what not, but I wouldn't say DPS CW has a much harder learning curve than the rest. And I do play CW... ( But far less than main, as a personal preference, that I don't have the energy to keep up-to date )
You are trying to understand the perspective of a CW without really playing a CW as a main yourself?
Yes, and I'm playing/was playing CW successfully, hence the disagreement that it has the highest learning curve. Also you can use the same argument on yourself, you are comparing it to the rest of the classes without maining them?
Also what I play or not play is not relevant, again, feel free to correct what I'm wrong at, or not. Maybe my not 'main' CW is more game-time and better understanding of the class than others who main it? Maybe I address other concerns that are not CW specific?
If your only intention is to get enough CW buffs to eliminate the need for any other class, or change everything to controllable, regardless of what it do to the game as a whole, and players at other game level, then indeed this discussion is a waste of time.
Because CWs were the dominant class 8 or so Mods ago, does that mean that they will be stuck in their position forever? I joined just in the middle of Mod 5, when the CW was already on the wane. When Mod 6 hit, control became practically useless, and the Storm Spell nerfs began. I guess I was ‘lucky’ that I got to experience the last remnants of control in Mod 5, for example the old Spellplague caverns. I know those days are long gone.
My point is, why should I, or any new CW player, who never experienced this “CW superiority”, yet enjoy playing a Wizard class, suffer because of our class’ former dominance? I haven’t done anything wrong, so why do people (and I am not specifying you) continue to use that example against me or others like me to justify the current state of the CW?
CW was very dominant when lightning procced on all the encounter ticks and not a single time, this was recent.
But that's besides the point, actually that was not the point at all. The point is when asking for a change, lets not overdo some things and screw the game for the rest of us. There are some absurd requests here, please give it all a fresh read in general terms not as CW, and you will see it too.
CW was very dominant!?! LOL!
You didn't even 'main' a CW (which you have admitted). CW were not dominant before the lightning enchantment nerfs - they were already middling and on the decline.
1. What is my main has to do with my ability to see what is the meta? Please focus on the point, or you want also discuss my blond hair and blue eyes? You can disagree/disprove what I'm saying or agree, "LOL" or a discussion about what I do will not do either in regards of CW capability.
2. Lightning CW was not short on DPS, unfortunately bloody course didn't work to full effectiveness. Which created the discrepancy of FBI vs Tomb, and CW vs GWF (at that time). Comparing (As much as comparing can be done) without bloody curse, and they were similar)
The TR has received a lot of reworks recently: buffs to powers, with a fantastic buff to Shadow of Demise. It is not just guides and ‘image’ that helped promote the TR into the single-target damage dealer of this day, but actual Dev reworks to the class.
This is 100% incorrect. Please do check the patch notes, and time line. The only single relevant change is to SoD and this one was ~3 weeks ago. And we are talking at longer time spans, a year for example..
Read my post above.
I've addressed that.
I cannot believe the number of assumptions you make. I also main other classes besides the CW.
I don't think I can take you seriously very much any more if you continue to argue with assumptions rather than logic, reason and facts.
Re: TRs have received more than just the SoD buff this year - from your perspective, those powers are not used. Well, they are used, and yes I know because I also look at ACT logs and see them being used. Just because you do not use them does not mean others do not - that is a logical fallacy and borders on solipsism.
But to bring the point about "Lighting CW" I am not referring to the Spell Storm CW, but rather the lightning enchantment proc:
2. Lightning CW was not short on DPS, unfortunately bloody course didn't work to full effectiveness. Which created the discrepancy of FBI vs Tomb, and CW vs GWF (at that time). Comparing (As much as comparing can be done) without bloody curse, and they were similar)
I'm not sure what you are referring to here, as it seems to be jumping to a different argument entirely! You are harder to catch than a MI Sab in PvP!
first, hmm you want to tell me that you main all classes equally? I did assume that you do not play every class at the same investment of time / gear / AD. I don't know anyone who can uphold that investment of time and effort to be proficient at all of them. It's either master few or be jack of all trades and master of none.
Those buffs didn't change anything, and if you saw someone in ACT use those powers, congratulations, but the argument was that it is not dev changes that made TRs what it is...
3. What to be lost about? I've quoted exactly what I respond to.
You say " CW were not dominant before the lightning enchantment nerfs - they were already middling and on the decline..." I've responded " Lightning CW was not short on DPS, unfortunately bloody course didn't work to full effectiveness. ...."
first, hmm you want to tell me that you main all classes equally? I did assume that you do not play every class at the same investment of time / gear / AD. I don't know anyone who can uphold that investment of time and effort to be proficient at all of them. It's either master few or be jack of all trades and master of none.
3. What to be lost about? I've quoted exactly what I respond to.
You say " CW were not dominant before the lightning enchantment nerfs - they were already middling and on the decline..." I've responded " Lightning CW was not short on DPS, unfortunately bloody course didn't work to full effectiveness. ...."
What is the difficulty here?
Yes, I see no difficulty, but those statements are disparate.
I believe the 1st statement was referring to you saying:
first, hmm you want to tell me that you main all classes equally? I did assume that you do not play every class at the same investment of time / gear / AD. I don't know anyone who can uphold that investment of time and effort to be proficient at all of them. It's either master few or be jack of all trades and master of none.
3. What to be lost about? I've quoted exactly what I respond to.
You say " CW were not dominant before the lightning enchantment nerfs - they were already middling and on the decline..." I've responded " Lightning CW was not short on DPS, unfortunately bloody course didn't work to full effectiveness. ...."
What is the difficulty here?
Yes, I see no difficulty, but those statements are disparate.
I believe the 1st statement was referring to you saying:
CW was very dominant when lightning procced on all the encounter ticks and not a single time, this was recent.
It was my opinion, and experience, that CW was not at all the dominant class even when lightning procced on all encounter ticks for some powers.
Then you mentioned about the bloody curse? I don't know how that was relevant to the 1st statement.
No problem, I'll clarify.
For general context, and as I've wrote somewhere in one of the posts, I do think that SS thaum should be the DPS path, and not MoF Opressor, and changes should be made accordingly to buff the SS path, and god knows what to do with oppressor.
My mention of bloody curse and multi lightning proccing CW was about perception of the CW class and how things spiraled down in relation to group forming.
Before Tomb, CW was arguably ok (yes, I understand that you disagree here, and maybe it was a decline, but I would say they were in still in ok position, we can go into videos of dps races, and one phases, but please lets not go into this as it is endless and not the most important point). There was no issue of it being main dps for FBI or SP and main DPS bosses.
The Tomb came, it was both more difficult and a DPS check, that required a better performance personally and as a group. It also became the measuring stick for classes. And here comes the main problem, that measuring stick, and specifically Orcus bloody course, it doesn't proc on half of CW procs, so effectively lowering CW capability on the boss. That being the measuring stick of the times and CW not performing well there created a situation where people preferred other classes as DPS (namely GWF) and CW to go as support which chain reacted into many ungeared people riding the "MoF" bandwagon as it takes no gear and join parties as "Buff MoF" which is fing debuffer.
The combination of that bloody curse bug, and people jumping on an opportunity to get into tombs with low geared alts in the name of "MoF support" created hordes of CW that can't DPS, and make CW look like an extremely lackluster DPS class.
The proc changes later and not everyone adapting to MoF Oppressor as the DPS build (and understandably, not everyone can expect that, and track every change) further reduced the CW reputation as DPS.
The point is that CW current situation in grouping is at least in part, not due to the CW actual performance, but a reputation and perception as bad DPS and only support, while CW can actually DPS as main DPS successfully, and the shunting is not justified, as probably up-to-date CW knows from private groups and successful runs.
It will end up as a trade off, people can prove now that CW can do everything needed to be done, and it will help the grouping issue for all CWs but lower any buffs that may come. Or on the other hand, enforce the perception that CW is extremely bad, which will make grouping for many CWs now harder, or force them into supports, but if / when class buffs will come it will make CW the FOTM class. This is how it is.. and for all classes.
I hope that clarifies that context, and the point in general, that the perception of the class, and not specifically its actual performance has a lot of influence in terms how people create groups. This is not unique to CW, and happens to all classes at some point.
0
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
first, hmm you want to tell me that you main all classes equally? I did assume that you do not play every class at the same investment of time / gear / AD. I don't know anyone who can uphold that investment of time and effort to be proficient at all of them. It's either master few or be jack of all trades and master of none.
The learning curve for a CW seems to me much harder for DPS than any other DPS class at the moment, barring the SW.
I said "seems". This was my opinion.
And I've disagreed from my expiriance:
"Sorry, I guess we all biased and what not, but I wouldn't say DPS CW has a much harder learning curve than the rest. And I do play CW... ( But far less than main, as a personal preference, that I don't have the energy to keep up-to date ) "
We all biased - in terms of what we play and what we main, how much we invest in each class, and how deep into perfecting it. And that I, from my expiriance wouldn't say that CW is.. the rest of the quote.
As it is subjective, I was hoping to not start the discussion by providing a honest perspective that I do play CW, but not as much as the single other class I play, and more than the rest of classes.
first, hmm you want to tell me that you main all classes equally? I did assume that you do not play every class at the same investment of time / gear / AD. I don't know anyone who can uphold that investment of time and effort to be proficient at all of them. It's either master few or be jack of all trades and master of none.
3. What to be lost about? I've quoted exactly what I respond to.
You say " CW were not dominant before the lightning enchantment nerfs - they were already middling and on the decline..." I've responded " Lightning CW was not short on DPS, unfortunately bloody course didn't work to full effectiveness. ...."
What is the difficulty here?
Yes, I see no difficulty, but those statements are disparate.
I believe the 1st statement was referring to you saying:
CW was very dominant when lightning procced on all the encounter ticks and not a single time, this was recent.
It was my opinion, and experience, that CW was not at all the dominant class even when lightning procced on all encounter ticks for some powers.
Then you mentioned about the bloody curse? I don't know how that was relevant to the 1st statement.
No problem, I'll clarify.
For general context, and as I've wrote somewhere in one of the posts, I do think that SS thaum should be the DPS path, and not MoF Opressor, and changes should be made accordingly to buff the SS path, and god knows what to do with oppressor.
My mention of bloody curse and multi lightning proccing CW was about perception of the CW class and how things spiraled down in relation to group forming.
Before Tomb, CW was arguably ok (yes, I understand that you disagree here, and maybe it was a decline, but I would say they were in still in ok position, we can go into videos of dps races, and one phases, but please lets not go into this as it is endless and not the most important point). There was no issue of it being main dps for FBI or SP and main DPS bosses.
The Tomb came, it was both more difficult and a DPS check, that required a better performance personally and as a group. It also became the measuring stick for classes. And here comes the main problem, that measuring stick, and specifically Orcus bloody course, it doesn't proc on half of CW procs, so effectively lowering CW capability on the boss. That being the measuring stick of the times and CW not performing well there created a situation where people preferred other classes as DPS (namely GWF) and CW to go as support which chain reacted into many ungeared people riding the "MoF" bandwagon as it takes no gear and join parties as "Buff MoF" which is fing debuffer.
The combination of that bloody curse bug, and people jumping on an opportunity to get into tombs with low geared alts in the name of "MoF support" created hordes of CW that can't DPS, and make CW look like an extremely lackluster DPS class.
The proc changes later and not everyone adapting to MoF Oppressor as the DPS build (and understandably, not everyone can expect that, and track every change) further reduced the CW reputation as DPS.
The point is that CW current situation in grouping is at least in part, not due to the CW actual performance, but a reputation and perception as bad DPS and only support, while CW can actually DPS as main DPS successfully, and the shunting is not justified, as probably up-to-date CW knows from private groups and successful runs.
It will end up as a trade off, people can prove now that CW can do everything needed to be done, and it will help the grouping issue for all CWs but lower any buffs that may come. Or on the other hand, enforce the perception that CW is extremely bad, which will make grouping for many CWs now harder, or force them into supports, but if / when class buffs will come it will make CW the FOTM class. This is how it is.. and for all classes.
I hope that clarifies that context, and the point in general, that the perception of the class, and not specifically its actual performance has a lot of influence in terms how people create groups. This is not unique to CW, and happens to all classes at some point.
An interesting read, and a perspective that I am sure other people may share.
I note how you put a lot of emphasis on perception, but if you take a moment to read how other people's perception of their own class is, then surely that must hold some weight? What I mean is (and I do not just want to drag this back to the CW, however, that has been the example here), is that I, and a number of other people, have experienced a drop in DPS of the CW. This is a personal perception of our class. How can you discount that a number of experienced CWs feel that they can no longer compete DPS wise by the 3, and possible 4, "DPS" classes currently: GWF, TR, HR, GF (in no particular order, except for the 4th).
It isn't that I lack for knowledge about how the CW functions, and what it can do. It also doesn't mean that I also lack for knowledge in other classes. I have run TONG perhaps 5 more times on my DC than my CW. I have more UES in the bank than I can work with at the moment, so I do not lack for experience or groupings into TONG. In those runs as a DC, I have been fortunate to run sub-15 minute TONGs. Not the best runs, but still good in my opinion. I have run with very experienced TRs, HRs, GWFs, CWs, SWs, and GFs as primary DPS. In all that time, the number of times that the CW has been primary DPS I can count on my hand. And yes, this is a mixture of both pre-made groups, guild and alliance members, friends, channels and the occasional random queue or PE /lfg when I feel like up for a challenge and something different. The best TONG run times, were when the primary DPS was run by a TR, GWF, HR and funnily enough a SW (but it was a buglock). The difference in times is a matter of minutes, say 15 minutes compared to 18 minutes (which was the best that the primary DPS CW attained). 3 minutes may not seem a lot as an absolute number, but as a percentage of time for the dungeon it is a 20% difference. Again, perhaps my sample size is small, but when I look at other threads (and not just this one, but the topic of the CW cropped up, as it is affected by the aforesaid meta in the OP original post), I also see the same complaints.
A forum is place to express our opinions. I have expressed my opinion, and you have yours. Know this, however, because the CW was the first class that I played, that I fell in love with, I use it as my examples and experiences in this game, and in the current meta. I know how much the CW has fallen. By others stating that it is only a perception, is missing the point. It is a matter of other people's perception of the class, true, but when the perception is from the class itself, the class that knows the most about itself and how it performs, then who are you to discount that perception?
An interesting read, and a perspective that I am sure other people may share.
I note how you put a lot of emphasis on perception, but if you take a moment to read how other people's perception of their own class is, then surely that must hold some weight?
Actually, depends on the context. And that's the point. If we talk about /lfg /channels grouping, that no one cares what a CW (as an example) thinks about themselves, in the context of public grouping it mainly matters what everyone else think about the class and not the class players themselves.
What I mean is (and I do not just want to drag this back to the CW, however, that has been the example here), is that I, and a number of other people, have experienced a drop in DPS of the CW. This is a personal perception of our class. How can you discount that a number of experienced CWs feel that they can no longer compete DPS wise by the 3, and possible 4, "DPS" classes currently: GWF, TR, HR, GF (in no particular order, except for the 4th). It isn't that I lack for knowledge about how the CW functions, and what it can do.
I didn't say you don't know how to CW. I've said that people who jumped on the " has MoF, no gear, still can do tomb as support" wagon for easy grouping without actually knowing the class, contributed, ultimately, to it's bad reputation as DPS (among other factors).
It also doesn't mean that I also lack for knowledge in other classes. I have run TONG perhaps 5 more times on my DC than my CW. I have more UES in the bank than I can work with at the moment, so I do not lack for experience or groupings into TONG. In those runs as a DC, I have been fortunate to run sub-15 minute TONGs. Not the best runs, but still good in my opinion. I have run with very experienced TRs, HRs, GWFs, CWs, SWs, and GFs as primary DPS. In all that time, the number of times that the CW has been primary DPS I can count on my hand. And yes, this is a mixture of both pre-made groups, guild and alliance members, friends, channels and the occasional random queue or PE /lfg when I feel like up for a challenge and something different. The best TONG run times, were when the primary DPS was run by a TR, GWF, HR and funnily enough a SW (but it was a buglock). The difference in times is a matter of minutes, say 15 minutes compared to 18 minutes (which was the best that the primary DPS CW attained). 3 minutes may not seem a lot as an absolute number, but as a percentage of time for the dungeon it is a 20% difference. Again, perhaps my sample size is small, but when I look at other threads (and not just this one, but the topic of the CW cropped up, as it is affected by the aforesaid meta in the OP original post), I also see the same complaints.
And this is in part of the same issue of the bugged measuring stick, bloody course doesn't/didn't work on most CW procs...
If CW best time is 18 minutes ? I don't believe so, but as CW is enclosed in their facebook group (which were a great initiative long ago, but imo not so now) I can't tell you much beyond those that I play with. Interestingly, when a mod ago there was "dps" rating posted on some blog, and CW was not on top, some CWs posted that it is biased and that people just don't know good CWs.
Who is right? I don't know. My personal opinion about CW changes I've already wrote at the beginning of the post.
I can tell you one thing, and this is how we got to TR changelog to begin with, a year ago we were in the same position, with bad reputation and decline. As I've pointed out, regardless of those dev changes, that actually were discarded and do not affect anything, today on consoles (no SoD change) TRs do not have the same reputation issues. This happened due to adapting, learning to utilize support classes better, new gear, and a discord of over 1k TRs, squeezing the maximum out of the class. I thought I know the class, yet, in group thinking I was shown how it can be much better. It may apply to CW, it may not.
But you know which class didn't even have a discord until 2 weeks ago, and even that one wasn't made by a CW players, but a GF player trying to help. So grouping was brought up, and decline, in DPS, sure perhaps CW sucks, but as I see it, it sucks much less than in general people make it so (not you, in general), and there is much more to do to make it better and its reputation even before the devs will remember to class balance one per a millennia.
A forum is place to express our opinions. I have expressed my opinion, and you have yours. Know this, however, because the CW was the first class that I played, that I fell in love with, I use it as my examples and experiences in this game, and in the current meta. I know how much the CW has fallen. By others stating that it is only a perception, is missing the point. It is a matter of other people's perception of the class, true, but when the perception is from the class itself, the class that knows the most about itself and how it performs, then who are you to discount that perception?
I've said that CW grouping suffers from bad reputation and explained how it got there. The main point was not your perception of your class, but others of your class.
This thread is about many things, one of those is grouping, and for that a CW perception of its own class is not important, only important how well they adapted, and what others think, and in general there is a lot that can be done in both aspects to make CW better without any patch notes.
As you've said, just another forum poster, same as you. You can disregard what I'm saying, you can think that here is another "class x" wan't CW nerfs, or maybe I have personal issue with magic users.. Or what not (There is another thread, that someone took a single line from several posts and dragged it into how I hate CWs or something when it was just a freaking example of something that was actually happening in mod4 and can be easily said for any other class), but anyway, or you can take from this change things, maybe it will help, and you will see that actually CW is in better place that it looked like, or maybe it wont help, and you need all the buffs you can have.
But at least, a more coherent idea can come out if it, and not one asks for DPS because that what they signed up for when they started the game "wizards and fireballs" while another want the class to return to it's namesake "controller" and not DPS.
You can look as example of what we did, when the suggestions where group idea, thought over, refined, most discarded, and only the few most important posted. Later we just gave up and make do without dev changes. So you can take it as advice from expiriance or not.
Because the last time CW could do both, it was 4CW parties. And sorry for my lack of sympathy, but I'll rather not see that happen again.
So you don't have? Don't worry about it. Right back at ya!
And what you want? Seems like you are the only one that has reading and understanding problems. Yes there was a meta long ago, of 4-5 CWs in a party for CN, it was worse meta than now. Should I copy the explanation again for you? Here is the thread for anyone to judge https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/comment/13043375
I'll agree that there is no perfect balance, and if you will need 2-3 DPS, it's likely that an 'optimal' group will be 3 DPS of the same class. But the larger issue of, for example 80% DPS players and 20% supports, should be solved controlled, and a good way to start is in a single tune-able way not by killing buffs and with them people who worked hard for their chars, but balanced enough that one buffer in a group is better than taking a dps instead but 2 buffers will not be better than 5 dps (for example).
I don't agree it's not Cryptic fault. Yes, the community can do a lot about this, and many do, in their private bubbles. And Yes the general 'zerg' channels, lfg and so on, can stop being afraid to loose 30 seconds of a run and be more flexible, especially when they know the party is strong enough to finish it smoothly.
But at the same time Cryptic can adjust class balance on a monthly basis, and not once a blue moon, and thus getting some classes stuck out of favor for very long times, even years in some cases, and FOTM becomes FOTYear too. Also dungeon design, with meager loot, crappy RNG, and no adjustment for various tiers + obsoleting the older content and thus killing verity, forces even the better players run the same thing over and over and over again and again.
What is the solution? I guess maybe a combination of:
1. Balancing the most acute issues like buff scaling. 2. Creating more role specialization - controller, AoE dps, Single target DPS, tank, healer, buffer, debuffer, damage mitigation, etc.. - Having the capstones, higher tear feats and paragons play more significant role, so there is a more significant difference, one clearer path and choice for tanking, one for dps, one for buffing, for example. Still allowing tweaks and min-maxing in the way there, but narrowing it down, so capstones have clear benefit and specialization. 3. Creating content that match the specializations. 4. And most importantly creating viable paths for all classes for multiple specializations, so each class is at least viable in a couple.
Or maybe this will create 5 DCs going and swapping load-outs for each campfire , I guess it is all about fine tuning and implementation.
PS: It is always possible to add some rainbow bonus for DPS, lets say 10% buff per different class in party. It's perhaps not the most elegant, but can be enough to counter the '4 CW' return.
Some things, there isn't a single healer conceived can heal...
I don't understand the problem of the thread poster.
Right now, every class has at least 1 viable build to be used. Right now, there is at least 1 guide for every class with good information to progress and use the class effectively. The game feats/power descriptions are not optimized yet, and the guides help people understand them. Right now, there are many videos and streamers who do NWO content and explain it to others. And finally, right now it is possible to build meta/non-meta groups with 3-5 different classes and successfully complete the dungeon.
It is fine and commendable to play with your friends and family, but in NWO, some game features are still "coming" and boss tactics are one of them. If you truly wish to succed in your family/friend runs, sit together and watch some videos/read guides about the dungeons you are about to visit. Additionally, there are really good guides made by several, not just 1, but several experienced people of the same class to aid casual players like me, who don't have time to explore and test every part of the game. Those guide explain you how to be effective in combat and how to build your character.
In conclusion, I don't undestand why you are complaining with so much resources at your disposal. NWO suffers from ignorance, in terms of people wanting to enter the game and kill everything on first try without properly optimizing their characters or learning the fights. As someone above said, normal versions of the current high IL dungeons could help with the latter, as players potentially would remember the tactics from the normal mode..and maybe follow them.
If they nerf power-share and buffs, I'm cool with that.
Well, this sentence essentially makes the whole discussion pointless since this is the point of fact.
However, I still disagree that introduction of the better and more available CC in dungeons would make content "too easy". It would increase the DPS of CWs by some 4-5% tops, but otherwise wouldn't really hurt the party composition by any reasonable margin.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
I don't understand the problem of the thread poster.
That is probably because you are rather unfamiliar with the methods of a constructive feedback and any conversational option you may see by someone you will define as "complaining", which effectively correlates to your inability to be tolerant and parliamentary in such regards. If you do not understand something, the bare minimum of decency would be to actually ask if something is not clear enough, instead to argue from a position that serves no constructive feedback whatsoever.
Yes, every class has one viable build and, yes, everyone can beat content with viable builds. What a wonder. If that was all you wanted to post, congratulations, you've successfully preached to a choir and managed to attack me for no apparent reason other than to write something that not even remotely connects to everything stated here, yet relates to the very fact you yourself are using as an argument, and that is that MMO's are changing and adapting constantly, so why do you offer such contraditction to begin with is beyond me.
First you accuse me for complaining, then you yourself start complaining that people shouldn't "complain" because MMOs constantly change.
NWO suffers from ignorance, in terms of people wanting to enter the game and kill everything on first try without properly optimizing their characters or learning the fights.
Virtually nobody I know in this game, who played more than two days, wanted to get in and kill everything in sight. Maybe and just maybe it was me, but I'm already way too crazy of a guy and player in NWO, messing around with every single thing you can tinker about, so I'm not a good example I guess. Although I wouldn't call people ignorant, people are not familiar with the game enough to understand what the major problematics are from a moral standpoint. And not just moral but also a longtime problem which will arise and produce more problems down the line. And I've seen people in this thread successfully realizing this, albeit in some apathy based on expertise with NWO changes in the past, so why can't you? What is so difficult to realize about party compositions?
Perhaps it would be better to say that people are afraid of changes after investing a lot into their builds in order to be more successful in beating a specific content. And whoever did so inevitably got burned hard at one point or another, thus making people afraid to invest into something because they are afraid of how Cryptic might change it later on.
As far as experience goes, everything that is overused becomes obsolete at some point. And at the moment power sharing is super-overused and for some reason it is still viable.
But that is not the main problem. No. After the Power Sharing is gone, and if it becomes gone, nobody knows that right(?), the party composition problematics befall the content itself. BAM
Why so? Well, simply put, one-two shots by enemies. You can avoid this in dungeons which are relatively hard.
Here, yesterday I beat CN with my wife. it took us some 20-30 minutes and we had fun playing like that.
It is refreshing and nice to build your own character which can survive dungeon based on your skill of both micromanagement of boons as well as pet choices also followed by adequate gear.
And that is RPG essentially for me. RPG for me is not to call a 911-OP/DC combo each time I have to beat some hard content. That defeats the purpose of progression JUST BECAUSE there was this faulty agenda to make people play with tanks and healers at all times. Potions got nerfed, classes got nerfed, enemies got upgraded and epic dungeons got changed drastically. This MOD 6 agenda still prevails and it shouldn't.
If even after all this time there are always OP/DC lacking to joining parties, it doesn't work, you can't make people play like that and people will rather skip content altogether than play it. Especially evident for FBI/MSP etc.
People would rather play Hunts in Barovia than playing dungeons, unless they specifically play dungeons to gain something. I've seen people saying "once I get weapon I'm out of this CR". And this tells a lot.
My complaint is that I can't get into the epic dungeon content without carrying a tank/healer combo. Notably CR that I am interested in because - vampires! Otherwise I wouldn't care one bit because the way Epic Dungeons are made is stupid and not really inviting.
I do not realize why people get so happy once they finish some dungeon when in fact they were carried thanks to Tank and DC offering power sharing and debuffs. So, no, it is not about skill and it is not about knowledge or experience. It is about surviving it because it is hard to beat, and is hard to beat for no apparent reason other than to fuel the already great divide between the class choices.
No, I can't go without tank/healer into CR. Sorry, it just wouldn't make sense to do so, if anything just because of Sisters themselves.
And, yes, I do not find it to my benefit and personal preference or skill to beat content where I am carried around like a child by papa OP and mama DC. Going to say that every time. That is not how I want to play the game because it DEFEATS the purpose of building a character.
To me a character should be built in order to be able to survive any content. If there is going to be some very epic content it should be made for at least 10 people and not just 5.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited August 2018
Here are some clips of a CR run I did some days ago with some friends, no DCs, GWFs or TRs involved and no scrolls of mass l2p:
Keep in mind that this was a very casual run, in laggy circumstances. We were typing/messing around and not really heavily focusing on what was happening during the run. I messed up a lot (forgetting to use soul sight crystal, killing grace at the first boss with the reflect mechanic, not really following any rotation at all, etc). All in all, it was a very sloppy run. We actually wiped at the 2nd boss once (which is not in this cut) because bethel decided to talk about hearthstone while the boss was spinning instead of taking him to the pillar (lol).
All in all, the run still only took 33 minutes and if we were actually trying, it could have been done in 22-25 minutes, no dcs involved. Would it have been faster with dcs? undoubtedly, but at most if you are comparing a run where the group is speedrunning without dcs to a run where they are speedrunning with dcs, you are looking at a 4 minute difference, max.
The point being, if you want to run without dcs, you can still do the dungeon in a reasonable time frame. I am not denying that it is faster with dcs, but arguing that dcs are make or break for this dungeon is a complete and utter fabrication. Is a good tank and healer a must? Yes, absolutely. Do I think there is something wrong with that? No, not at all, I feel having 1 tank and 1 healer at minimum should be a requirement to run content.
The latest Castle Ravenloft Epic Dungeon needs a Paladin (Healadin if you will), Two Devoted Clerics and a Guardian Fighter to actually have a decent team with decent survivability options in contrast to the speed of beating the given content. This automatically shuts down my Executioner TR friends in party alongside with me as a Spell Storm Wizard. I have to play as a Master of Flame in order to be actually useful in boss fights. Why is this a necessity? Is that equality? No.
Your 'Executioner TR friend' has the right idea. They've spec'd their character the only viable way they can to be competitive. You seem to not be willing to do so. You have a viable option you're just unwilling to use it.
This is a good thing. Dungeons should not be doable without a proper tank. For that matter they should not be doable without a proper healer, at least 1 dps and preferably at least 1 buffs. The final spot is open for anything. This is actually a really good setup for an MMO. You seem to be arguing against one of the very cornerstones of group content in the MMO/RPG genre, the 'Holy Trinity' of Tank/Heals/DPS. The fact that you can't walk into the dungeon with just any group setup and expect any amount of success is a good thing, not a bad thing.
I fear You and I will never see eye to eye concerning how this game's development is handled. I think (and I'm not alone) that Castle Ravenloft is one of the best dungeons that has come out in the past few years. The dungeons have been pregressively improving starting with Fangbreaker Island. Each dungeon since then has been better and better and more and more what I consider a 'real dungeon' worthy of group content.
For those unwilling to adapt or incapable of doing the current end-game content their are options for them. The Vistani weapons were given to everyone who came to Barovia. They are perfectly capable weapons. Everyone has access to Hunts and Donjon cards which can grant them IL 540 gear, many pieces of which are really quite nice.
Finally I do agree that it would be nice if some classes had more options as to what role they can fill in a dungeon. If a SSCW wants to primary DPS in a grp they should be capable of that and if they want to play MOF they can, same goes for SW. You can still bring 2 dps into CR and succeed, I've done it multiple times. The biggest problem is that almost all buffs/debuffs in this game are far too strong and add/multiply far too well, but that is a discussion for another thread.
I agree with all this and like I've been saying all along. they should just start doing an N version that people can play however they want along with the Master version. that lets the newbies learn the dynamics and opens it up for them when they do become ready for epic content. it also lets people who are ready for epic content learn the dynamics outside of the master setting. it would be win win win imo. there is no reason to make new content only for end gamers. it should have a path where all can enjoy it.
Keep in mind that this was a very casual run, in laggy circumstances. We were typing/messing around and not really heavily focusing on what was happening during the run. I messed up a lot (forgetting to use soul sight crystal, killing grace at the first boss with the reflect mechanic, not really following any rotation at all, etc). All in all, it was a very sloppy run. We actually wiped at the 2nd boss once (which is not in this cut) because bethel decided to talk about hearthstone while the boss was spinning instead of taking him to the pillar (lol).
All in all, the run still only took 33 minutes and if we were actually trying, it could have been done in 22-25 minutes, no dcs involved. Would it have been faster with dcs? undoubtedly, but at most if you are comparing a run where the group is speedrunning without dcs to a run where they are speedrunning with dcs, you are looking at a 4 minute difference, max.
The point being, if you want to run without dcs, you can still do the dungeon in a reasonable time frame. I am not denying that it is faster with dcs, but arguing that dcs are make or break for this dungeon is a complete and utter fabrication. Is a good tank and healer a must? Yes, absolutely. Do I think there is something wrong with that? No, not at all, I feel having 1 tank and 1 healer at minimum should be a requirement to run content.
It does not proves anything when u are still using class build that are in meta. Class like gwf IV sentinel, archery HR etc are still out of the game. Player playing those class are still forced to abandon their class to play those that are in meta. It is more balance in the past when at least there are more viable class specific tree build than there are today. Until the developer are able to buff those non meta class up to the meta level, it does not solve the issue where class build in this game are rigid and are forcing player that does not follow the meta out of the game. Call it a bad build if u want but it still does not deny that those class need a boost. Class build in this game are no longer as flexible as in the past. There are more tree path that u could build into and still call it viable back then. It will get worse as more class tree are rendered dead and not revived. Just saying.
The point being, if you want to run without dcs, you can still do the dungeon in a reasonable time frame. I am not denying that it is faster with dcs, but arguing that dcs are make or break for this dungeon is a complete and utter fabrication. Is a good tank and healer a must? Yes, absolutely. Do I think there is something wrong with that? No, not at all, I feel having 1 tank and 1 healer at minimum should be a requirement to run content.
We finally go somewhere in the topic. Good.
I understand the position that you're coming from. I have to disagree that tank and healer is a must for any content and point is that OP makes both classes at once, known as Healadin. I do not like that we're talking class roles without class roles. I do not like that the community's pretending like everything is good when it's quite stagnant. So there we do have a problem at start because the class roles have changed drastically just to fit that narrow spot of "tank healer" combo. And this plagues NWO for quite some time now because we have two SUPER classes. And as much as some would like to argue that OP/DC combo is "fine", yet other classes should come around that glowing combo pillar and just play as some gray "DPS" class, there's going to be a problem. So that goes out of the window pretty quick as there are no "Tanks and Healers" in this game, at least that is not the main reason OPs and DCs are invited to the groups in my experience.
There is just no point to bring that content is beatable with a tank and healer, the point (one of) is that it shouldn't be absolutely mandatory and that there should be ways to mitigate or evade it without focusing on the mandatory tank position in the group. Of course, this is one of the weaker points, but it fits into the narrow space with such arguments relating to the party composition at at later stage.
I can sum up to three different points being made.
1. Fastest runs with power sharing, power sharing too good. I do not want it nerfed, I want other classes improved and eventually the content itself. This is an optimal case scenario, but given the history it will probably be nerfed at one point or another or it will be some other class getting boosted a bit, yet broken to good heavens, thus becoming the next meta for another year or so.
2. If optimal case scenario from point one is made, great. If power sharing becomes nerfed there is another problem - Content demands a Tank and Healer roles (first one a bit more mandatory) due to the way mobs attack or destroy groups with various skills. Problem is that Paladins are both Tanks and Healers at the same time, leaving enough room for a DC, who should be a healer by all logical and reasonable points, to become a total buffer. And not so long ago the buffs stacked, so it was 2xDC combo. Even after the nerf this didn't change as 2xDC are still in the parties. So even if we go by the logic that it is MANDATORY to have a tank and healer (and we all know who tanks best and heals best), and even if by some miracle DC becomes a meta healer, it still leaves the party problematics.
3. Party composition problematics - Since the hardships of content in contrast to the benefits of the paladins and clerics have created a cancerous environment which lasts for over 6 mods, making it actually be valid would take some heavy work from developers revolving around
- Managing power sharing so that either all classes can provide it, or diminish it's effectiveness completely after which would totally open at least two or three new can of worms... - Of on the major cans would revolve around having to figure out how to make the shiny, glowing pillar of awesomeness known as >>>Op/Dc combo<<< to stop providing THAT much benefit, which leads to the next can - Content provided. Now, this is what made me think about the problem and it revolves around how awesome the hunts in Barovia were made. Make no mistake, this is by far the best content NWO saw since who knows when! Stated by many as their favorite innovation and finding a perfect balance between prize / run ratio, constantly having the potential to earn more posters, buy/sell posters and whatnot. It just works and works amazingly.
This particular content it is not mandatory for people to bring a tank unless we're talking about Donjon Sister run. For that people do need to bring a tank and perhaps a healer, but also reduce the Sister mechanic power which grabs you over the half of the map. The point is that ultimately the content provided governs how the party should run, but with Barovia hunts there are no penalties for being new to the game or being an old player. There are no penalties which are based on how many damage or healing you do, like in Tiamat. There are no penalties which would reduce the benefits you might receive. You are welcome to try once you beat the introductions quest. You are welcome to be a part of the group which you may find either in the guild, alliance chat, zone chat or even LFG sometimes. There are no Hunt specific groups to my knowledge and I ran with GF/GWF and 2 TRs. And we had fun together because for the first time in years there was an end-game content revolving around playing however you want without getting a heavy penalty for not going with a tank or healer.
Not once, not a single time, it is UNHEARD of in any group I ran in hunts that someone blamed anything on anyone in the party. There was no "Why don't you tank better" or "Why didn't you heal me" or anything even remotely like that. There is no damage counter. There is no 40 minutes stressful runs which would destroy your willingness to play (and the rest of your day, too) because not only do you need to take care of yourself, but also have to explain to others what they are doing wrong in the dungeon creating unnecessary arguments which could take forever till the point you realize that you either play with elitist friends or do not play at all. And the same things happens because of the PUGs, but it's not weird to have that even in guild or alliance, too.
Yet, all of that ignorance and lack of knowledge simply disappears once they are in Barovian hunts. And it produces a very, very healthy environment where even mistakes are taken and laughed at, with people having great time, making internal jokes and using SPICY runs. Weak spice, medium spice, heavy spice, holy <font color="orange">HAMSTER spice, RIP spice etc... And it makes ti a bit more interesting.
The point is, if it ultimately comes down to changes regarding the content itself, it should follow down the Barovian Hunts example because even if it would be super fast to run with power sharing duo-trio-quartet, it is not mandatory since the mobs won't hit like a truck (and even if they do, use LS, switch to a shield, use that AC bonuses etc) to make for a nice run.
Having to go to Barovian CR to get weapon and then 15+ more times to get ingredients? No, not good. Extremely bad example, more so given that weapons themselves will get obsolete once the new mod gets introduced with weapons which offer up to 50 more damage and thus makes all that effort of going to CR completely obsolete, useless and void.
So, ultimately, content should change and avoid the cancerous duo as the mandatory fellowship. That's my opinion since nobody should be obliged to run with a tank and healer and especially not in DnD game. I am for Tank and Healer only in scenarios of 10+ players dungeons.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
1
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Keep in mind that this was a very casual run, in laggy circumstances. We were typing/messing around and not really heavily focusing on what was happening during the run. I messed up a lot (forgetting to use soul sight crystal, killing grace at the first boss with the reflect mechanic, not really following any rotation at all, etc). All in all, it was a very sloppy run. We actually wiped at the 2nd boss once (which is not in this cut) because bethel decided to talk about hearthstone while the boss was spinning instead of taking him to the pillar (lol).
All in all, the run still only took 33 minutes and if we were actually trying, it could have been done in 22-25 minutes, no dcs involved. Would it have been faster with dcs? undoubtedly, but at most if you are comparing a run where the group is speedrunning without dcs to a run where they are speedrunning with dcs, you are looking at a 4 minute difference, max.
The point being, if you want to run without dcs, you can still do the dungeon in a reasonable time frame. I am not denying that it is faster with dcs, but arguing that dcs are make or break for this dungeon is a complete and utter fabrication. Is a good tank and healer a must? Yes, absolutely. Do I think there is something wrong with that? No, not at all, I feel having 1 tank and 1 healer at minimum should be a requirement to run content.
It does not proves anything when u are still using class build that are in meta. Class like gwf IV sentinel, archery HR etc are still out of the game. Player playing those class are still forced to abandon their class to play those that are in meta. It is more balance in the past when at least there are more viable class specific tree build than there are today. Until the developer are able to buff those non meta class up to the meta level, it does not solve the issue where class build in this game are rigid and are forcing player that does not follow the meta out of the game. Call it a bad build if u want but it still does not deny that those class need a boost. Class build in this game are no longer as flexible as in the past. There are more tree path that u could build into and still call it viable back then. It will get worse as more class tree are rendered dead and not revived. Just saying.
I am sorry but I don't think the lowest common denominator should be able to complete endgame content. Either accept that your build is bad and play something that works or stop whining about content that is designed for builds that work, or try and get your build fixed by asking for reworks. There is nothing wrong with the dungeon, there is everything wrong with your entitlement philosophy.
Keep in mind that this was a very casual run, in laggy circumstances. We were typing/messing around and not really heavily focusing on what was happening during the run. I messed up a lot (forgetting to use soul sight crystal, killing grace at the first boss with the reflect mechanic, not really following any rotation at all, etc). All in all, it was a very sloppy run. We actually wiped at the 2nd boss once (which is not in this cut) because bethel decided to talk about hearthstone while the boss was spinning instead of taking him to the pillar (lol).
All in all, the run still only took 33 minutes and if we were actually trying, it could have been done in 22-25 minutes, no dcs involved. Would it have been faster with dcs? undoubtedly, but at most if you are comparing a run where the group is speedrunning without dcs to a run where they are speedrunning with dcs, you are looking at a 4 minute difference, max.
The point being, if you want to run without dcs, you can still do the dungeon in a reasonable time frame. I am not denying that it is faster with dcs, but arguing that dcs are make or break for this dungeon is a complete and utter fabrication. Is a good tank and healer a must? Yes, absolutely. Do I think there is something wrong with that? No, not at all, I feel having 1 tank and 1 healer at minimum should be a requirement to run content.
It does not proves anything when u are still using class build that are in meta. Class like gwf IV sentinel, archery HR etc are still out of the game. Player playing those class are still forced to abandon their class to play those that are in meta. It is more balance in the past when at least there are more viable class specific tree build than there are today. Until the developer are able to buff those non meta class up to the meta level, it does not solve the issue where class build in this game are rigid and are forcing player that does not follow the meta out of the game. Call it a bad build if u want but it still does not deny that those class need a boost. Class build in this game are no longer as flexible as in the past. There are more tree path that u could build into and still call it viable back then. It will get worse as more class tree are rendered dead and not revived. Just saying.
I am sorry but I don't think the lowest common denominator should be able to complete endgame content. Either accept that your build is bad and play something that works or stop whining about content that is designed for builds that work, or try and get your build fixed by asking for reworks. There is nothing wrong with the dungeon, there is everything wrong with your entitlement philosophy.
What if the developer decides to buff archery path too much while making trapper and combat to be close to non viable like back in mod 4? Will u speak the same or will u simply just switch ur stance saying trapper and combat are the "lowest denominator" aka bad build? If u do switch your stance, it will only show your lack of understanding in class balance. But if u still speak the same that archery is a bad build, then I pity your bias towards that tree. Either way, it makes your comment questionable.
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Keep in mind that this was a very casual run, in laggy circumstances. We were typing/messing around and not really heavily focusing on what was happening during the run. I messed up a lot (forgetting to use soul sight crystal, killing grace at the first boss with the reflect mechanic, not really following any rotation at all, etc). All in all, it was a very sloppy run. We actually wiped at the 2nd boss once (which is not in this cut) because bethel decided to talk about hearthstone while the boss was spinning instead of taking him to the pillar (lol).
All in all, the run still only took 33 minutes and if we were actually trying, it could have been done in 22-25 minutes, no dcs involved. Would it have been faster with dcs? undoubtedly, but at most if you are comparing a run where the group is speedrunning without dcs to a run where they are speedrunning with dcs, you are looking at a 4 minute difference, max.
The point being, if you want to run without dcs, you can still do the dungeon in a reasonable time frame. I am not denying that it is faster with dcs, but arguing that dcs are make or break for this dungeon is a complete and utter fabrication. Is a good tank and healer a must? Yes, absolutely. Do I think there is something wrong with that? No, not at all, I feel having 1 tank and 1 healer at minimum should be a requirement to run content.
It does not proves anything when u are still using class build that are in meta. Class like gwf IV sentinel, archery HR etc are still out of the game. Player playing those class are still forced to abandon their class to play those that are in meta. It is more balance in the past when at least there are more viable class specific tree build than there are today. Until the developer are able to buff those non meta class up to the meta level, it does not solve the issue where class build in this game are rigid and are forcing player that does not follow the meta out of the game. Call it a bad build if u want but it still does not deny that those class need a boost. Class build in this game are no longer as flexible as in the past. There are more tree path that u could build into and still call it viable back then. It will get worse as more class tree are rendered dead and not revived. Just saying.
I am sorry but I don't think the lowest common denominator should be able to complete endgame content. Either accept that your build is bad and play something that works or stop whining about content that is designed for builds that work, or try and get your build fixed by asking for reworks. There is nothing wrong with the dungeon, there is everything wrong with your entitlement philosophy.
What if the developer decides to buff archery path too much while making trapper and combat to be close to non viable like back in mod 4? Will u speak the same or will u simply just switch ur stance saying trapper and combat are the "lowest denominator" aka bad build? If u do switch your stance, it will only show your lack of understanding in class balance. But if u still speak the same that archery is a bad build, then I pity your bias towards that tree. Either way, it makes your comment questionable.
The only person who lacks understanding is you. There will always be a best and a worst, unless everything is uniform which would just make for a dull game. By choosing to play the worst, you are only gimping yourself. So long as every class can complete everything, it is ok, it does not have to be beatable by every build on every class and nor would I want it to. You have viable options, play them and ask for an archery buff, maybe you will get 1, but I would bet against it.
In fact, if I had it my way, CR would be so hard that 99% of the people who can currently finish it would be unable to do it as well, that is how much harder I want content to be. I want stuff to be so hard that players spend days to weeks figuring out works well and how to beat it, because challenge and adversity is how you become better, its not by facing content that can be beat by any composition with any group of people.
Keep in mind that this was a very casual run, in laggy circumstances. We were typing/messing around and not really heavily focusing on what was happening during the run. I messed up a lot (forgetting to use soul sight crystal, killing grace at the first boss with the reflect mechanic, not really following any rotation at all, etc). All in all, it was a very sloppy run. We actually wiped at the 2nd boss once (which is not in this cut) because bethel decided to talk about hearthstone while the boss was spinning instead of taking him to the pillar (lol).
All in all, the run still only took 33 minutes and if we were actually trying, it could have been done in 22-25 minutes, no dcs involved. Would it have been faster with dcs? undoubtedly, but at most if you are comparing a run where the group is speedrunning without dcs to a run where they are speedrunning with dcs, you are looking at a 4 minute difference, max.
The point being, if you want to run without dcs, you can still do the dungeon in a reasonable time frame. I am not denying that it is faster with dcs, but arguing that dcs are make or break for this dungeon is a complete and utter fabrication. Is a good tank and healer a must? Yes, absolutely. Do I think there is something wrong with that? No, not at all, I feel having 1 tank and 1 healer at minimum should be a requirement to run content.
It does not proves anything when u are still using class build that are in meta. Class like gwf IV sentinel, archery HR etc are still out of the game. Player playing those class are still forced to abandon their class to play those that are in meta. It is more balance in the past when at least there are more viable class specific tree build than there are today. Until the developer are able to buff those non meta class up to the meta level, it does not solve the issue where class build in this game are rigid and are forcing player that does not follow the meta out of the game. Call it a bad build if u want but it still does not deny that those class need a boost. Class build in this game are no longer as flexible as in the past. There are more tree path that u could build into and still call it viable back then. It will get worse as more class tree are rendered dead and not revived. Just saying.
I am sorry but I don't think the lowest common denominator should be able to complete endgame content. Either accept that your build is bad and play something that works or stop whining about content that is designed for builds that work, or try and get your build fixed by asking for reworks. There is nothing wrong with the dungeon, there is everything wrong with your entitlement philosophy.
What if the developer decides to buff archery path too much while making trapper and combat to be close to non viable like back in mod 4? Will u speak the same or will u simply just switch ur stance saying trapper and combat are the "lowest denominator" aka bad build? If u do switch your stance, it will only show your lack of understanding in class balance. But if u still speak the same that archery is a bad build, then I pity your bias towards that tree. Either way, it makes your comment questionable.
The only person who lacks understanding is you. There will always be a best and a worst, unless everything is uniform which would just make for a dull game. By choosing to play the worst, you are only gimping yourself. So long as every class can complete everything, it is ok, it does not have to be beatable by every build on every class and nor would I want it to.
No, each class feat should be balanced not for the sake of dullness but the opposite. Creating imbalance class feat will only push towards rigid build where every tom and hairy is taking the same feat. Balanced feat gives people choice. Just look at gwf. We could see people playing IV sentinel back then where as now, everyone is destroyer.
In fact, if I had it my way, CR would be so hard that 99% of the people who can currently finish it would be unable to do it as well, that is how much harder I want content to be. I want stuff to be so hard that players spend days to weeks figuring out works well and how to beat it, because challenge and adversity is how you become better, its not by facing content that can be beat by any composition with any group of people.
Speaking of self entitlement, u do know that your idea should not be forced into the community while ousting those who didn't think the same as u do, out of the game. If it is to accommodate everyone, the solution is to created a dungeon difficulty option.
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Keep in mind that this was a very casual run, in laggy circumstances. We were typing/messing around and not really heavily focusing on what was happening during the run. I messed up a lot (forgetting to use soul sight crystal, killing grace at the first boss with the reflect mechanic, not really following any rotation at all, etc). All in all, it was a very sloppy run. We actually wiped at the 2nd boss once (which is not in this cut) because bethel decided to talk about hearthstone while the boss was spinning instead of taking him to the pillar (lol).
All in all, the run still only took 33 minutes and if we were actually trying, it could have been done in 22-25 minutes, no dcs involved. Would it have been faster with dcs? undoubtedly, but at most if you are comparing a run where the group is speedrunning without dcs to a run where they are speedrunning with dcs, you are looking at a 4 minute difference, max.
The point being, if you want to run without dcs, you can still do the dungeon in a reasonable time frame. I am not denying that it is faster with dcs, but arguing that dcs are make or break for this dungeon is a complete and utter fabrication. Is a good tank and healer a must? Yes, absolutely. Do I think there is something wrong with that? No, not at all, I feel having 1 tank and 1 healer at minimum should be a requirement to run content.
It does not proves anything when u are still using class build that are in meta. Class like gwf IV sentinel, archery HR etc are still out of the game. Player playing those class are still forced to abandon their class to play those that are in meta. It is more balance in the past when at least there are more viable class specific tree build than there are today. Until the developer are able to buff those non meta class up to the meta level, it does not solve the issue where class build in this game are rigid and are forcing player that does not follow the meta out of the game. Call it a bad build if u want but it still does not deny that those class need a boost. Class build in this game are no longer as flexible as in the past. There are more tree path that u could build into and still call it viable back then. It will get worse as more class tree are rendered dead and not revived. Just saying.
I am sorry but I don't think the lowest common denominator should be able to complete endgame content. Either accept that your build is bad and play something that works or stop whining about content that is designed for builds that work, or try and get your build fixed by asking for reworks. There is nothing wrong with the dungeon, there is everything wrong with your entitlement philosophy.
What if the developer decides to buff archery path too much while making trapper and combat to be close to non viable like back in mod 4? Will u speak the same or will u simply just switch ur stance saying trapper and combat are the "lowest denominator" aka bad build? If u do switch your stance, it will only show your lack of understanding in class balance. But if u still speak the same that archery is a bad build, then I pity your bias towards that tree. Either way, it makes your comment questionable.
The only person who lacks understanding is you. There will always be a best and a worst, unless everything is uniform which would just make for a dull game. By choosing to play the worst, you are only gimping yourself. So long as every class can complete everything, it is ok, it does not have to be beatable by every build on every class and nor would I want it to.
No, each class feat should be balanced not for the sake of dullness but the opposite. Creating imbalance class feat will only push towards rigid build where every tom and hairy is taking the same feat. Balanced feat gives people choice. Just look at gwf. We could see people playing IV sentinel back then where as now, everyone is destroyer.
In fact, if I had it my way, CR would be so hard that 99% of the people who can currently finish it would be unable to do it as well, that is how much harder I want content to be. I want stuff to be so hard that players spend days to weeks figuring out works well and how to beat it, because challenge and adversity is how you become better, its not by facing content that can be beat by any composition with any group of people.
Speaking of self entitlement, u do know that your idea should not be forced into the community while ousting those who didn't think the same as u do, out of the game. If it is to accommodate everyone, the solution is to created a dungeon difficulty option.
No, my idea is to create some content that caters towards the subset of players that wants hard content, because right now, there is none. There is plenty of content that caters towards people like you who want to play builds that are the equivalent of a spec made by a random number generator, there is no need to cater more towards that part of the playerbase.
Another game I play, Path of Exile has more viable specs then this game has possible specs and it still has myriads of specs which are not viable at all and nor would I want them to be. Not every spec should be able to beat every piece of content. I would argue 50% of being able to beat content should be your build and the other 50% should be how you play it. If everything can beat everything, then a part of, "knowing how to make your character work" is gone.
Keep in mind that this was a very casual run, in laggy circumstances. We were typing/messing around and not really heavily focusing on what was happening during the run. I messed up a lot (forgetting to use soul sight crystal, killing grace at the first boss with the reflect mechanic, not really following any rotation at all, etc). All in all, it was a very sloppy run. We actually wiped at the 2nd boss once (which is not in this cut) because bethel decided to talk about hearthstone while the boss was spinning instead of taking him to the pillar (lol).
All in all, the run still only took 33 minutes and if we were actually trying, it could have been done in 22-25 minutes, no dcs involved. Would it have been faster with dcs? undoubtedly, but at most if you are comparing a run where the group is speedrunning without dcs to a run where they are speedrunning with dcs, you are looking at a 4 minute difference, max.
The point being, if you want to run without dcs, you can still do the dungeon in a reasonable time frame. I am not denying that it is faster with dcs, but arguing that dcs are make or break for this dungeon is a complete and utter fabrication. Is a good tank and healer a must? Yes, absolutely. Do I think there is something wrong with that? No, not at all, I feel having 1 tank and 1 healer at minimum should be a requirement to run content.
It does not proves anything when u are still using class build that are in meta. Class like gwf IV sentinel, archery HR etc are still out of the game. Player playing those class are still forced to abandon their class to play those that are in meta. It is more balance in the past when at least there are more viable class specific tree build than there are today. Until the developer are able to buff those non meta class up to the meta level, it does not solve the issue where class build in this game are rigid and are forcing player that does not follow the meta out of the game. Call it a bad build if u want but it still does not deny that those class need a boost. Class build in this game are no longer as flexible as in the past. There are more tree path that u could build into and still call it viable back then. It will get worse as more class tree are rendered dead and not revived. Just saying.
I am sorry but I don't think the lowest common denominator should be able to complete endgame content. Either accept that your build is bad and play something that works or stop whining about content that is designed for builds that work, or try and get your build fixed by asking for reworks. There is nothing wrong with the dungeon, there is everything wrong with your entitlement philosophy.
What if the developer decides to buff archery path too much while making trapper and combat to be close to non viable like back in mod 4? Will u speak the same or will u simply just switch ur stance saying trapper and combat are the "lowest denominator" aka bad build? If u do switch your stance, it will only show your lack of understanding in class balance. But if u still speak the same that archery is a bad build, then I pity your bias towards that tree. Either way, it makes your comment questionable.
The only person who lacks understanding is you. There will always be a best and a worst, unless everything is uniform which would just make for a dull game. By choosing to play the worst, you are only gimping yourself. So long as every class can complete everything, it is ok, it does not have to be beatable by every build on every class and nor would I want it to.
No, each class feat should be balanced not for the sake of dullness but the opposite. Creating imbalance class feat will only push towards rigid build where every tom and hairy is taking the same feat. Balanced feat gives people choice. Just look at gwf. We could see people playing IV sentinel back then where as now, everyone is destroyer.
In fact, if I had it my way, CR would be so hard that 99% of the people who can currently finish it would be unable to do it as well, that is how much harder I want content to be. I want stuff to be so hard that players spend days to weeks figuring out works well and how to beat it, because challenge and adversity is how you become better, its not by facing content that can be beat by any composition with any group of people.
Speaking of self entitlement, u do know that your idea should not be forced into the community while ousting those who didn't think the same as u do, out of the game. If it is to accommodate everyone, the solution is to created a dungeon difficulty option.
No, my idea is to create some content that caters towards the subset of players that wants hard content, because right now, there is none. There is plenty of content that caters towards people like you who want to play builds that are the equivalent of a spec made by a random number generator, there is no need to cater more towards that part of the playerbase.
The problem is there is no Tong or CR easy enough for casual players and there is no eTOS hard enough for hard core player either. That simply close down the option for both side. Both has limited dungeon to play.
0
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
Keep in mind that this was a very casual run, in laggy circumstances. We were typing/messing around and not really heavily focusing on what was happening during the run. I messed up a lot (forgetting to use soul sight crystal, killing grace at the first boss with the reflect mechanic, not really following any rotation at all, etc). All in all, it was a very sloppy run. We actually wiped at the 2nd boss once (which is not in this cut) because bethel decided to talk about hearthstone while the boss was spinning instead of taking him to the pillar (lol).
All in all, the run still only took 33 minutes and if we were actually trying, it could have been done in 22-25 minutes, no dcs involved. Would it have been faster with dcs? undoubtedly, but at most if you are comparing a run where the group is speedrunning without dcs to a run where they are speedrunning with dcs, you are looking at a 4 minute difference, max.
The point being, if you want to run without dcs, you can still do the dungeon in a reasonable time frame. I am not denying that it is faster with dcs, but arguing that dcs are make or break for this dungeon is a complete and utter fabrication. Is a good tank and healer a must? Yes, absolutely. Do I think there is something wrong with that? No, not at all, I feel having 1 tank and 1 healer at minimum should be a requirement to run content.
It does not proves anything when u are still using class build that are in meta. Class like gwf IV sentinel, archery HR etc are still out of the game. Player playing those class are still forced to abandon their class to play those that are in meta. It is more balance in the past when at least there are more viable class specific tree build than there are today. Until the developer are able to buff those non meta class up to the meta level, it does not solve the issue where class build in this game are rigid and are forcing player that does not follow the meta out of the game. Call it a bad build if u want but it still does not deny that those class need a boost. Class build in this game are no longer as flexible as in the past. There are more tree path that u could build into and still call it viable back then. It will get worse as more class tree are rendered dead and not revived. Just saying.
I am sorry but I don't think the lowest common denominator should be able to complete endgame content. Either accept that your build is bad and play something that works or stop whining about content that is designed for builds that work, or try and get your build fixed by asking for reworks. There is nothing wrong with the dungeon, there is everything wrong with your entitlement philosophy.
What if the developer decides to buff archery path too much while making trapper and combat to be close to non viable like back in mod 4? Will u speak the same or will u simply just switch ur stance saying trapper and combat are the "lowest denominator" aka bad build? If u do switch your stance, it will only show your lack of understanding in class balance. But if u still speak the same that archery is a bad build, then I pity your bias towards that tree. Either way, it makes your comment questionable.
The only person who lacks understanding is you. There will always be a best and a worst, unless everything is uniform which would just make for a dull game. By choosing to play the worst, you are only gimping yourself. So long as every class can complete everything, it is ok, it does not have to be beatable by every build on every class and nor would I want it to.
No, each class feat should be balanced not for the sake of dullness but the opposite. Creating imbalance class feat will only push towards rigid build where every tom and hairy is taking the same feat. Balanced feat gives people choice. Just look at gwf. We could see people playing IV sentinel back then where as now, everyone is destroyer.
In fact, if I had it my way, CR would be so hard that 99% of the people who can currently finish it would be unable to do it as well, that is how much harder I want content to be. I want stuff to be so hard that players spend days to weeks figuring out works well and how to beat it, because challenge and adversity is how you become better, its not by facing content that can be beat by any composition with any group of people.
Speaking of self entitlement, u do know that your idea should not be forced into the community while ousting those who didn't think the same as u do, out of the game. If it is to accommodate everyone, the solution is to created a dungeon difficulty option.
No, my idea is to create some content that caters towards the subset of players that wants hard content, because right now, there is none. There is plenty of content that caters towards people like you who want to play builds that are the equivalent of a spec made by a random number generator, there is no need to cater more towards that part of the playerbase.
The problem is there is no Tong or CR easy enough for casual players and there is no eTOS hard enough for hard core player either. That simply close down the option for both side. Both has limited dungeon to play.
No, there is no problem with that at all. I don't see why everything should be beatable by everyone and why there should be an easy or hard version of everything. Having only a hard version gives you something to work towards.
Another game I play, Path of Exile has more viable specs then this game has possible specs and it still has myriads of specs which are not viable at all and nor would I want them to be. Not every spec should be able to beat every piece of content. I would argue 50% of being able to beat content should be your build and the other 50% should be how you play it. If everything can beat everything, then a part of, "knowing how to make your character work" is gone.
Never played that game but myriad spec is a better balance. It open up to a whole new window of possibility giving more player to think and come up with builds. That's what keeps the game interesting. Because people are gonna get bored when they keep playing the same old build over and over again. It kept the player longer to the game when they keep coming out with new builds. Also with more build are viable, more player are open to the content. Its good for both player and the game.
Keep in mind that this was a very casual run, in laggy circumstances. We were typing/messing around and not really heavily focusing on what was happening during the run. I messed up a lot (forgetting to use soul sight crystal, killing grace at the first boss with the reflect mechanic, not really following any rotation at all, etc). All in all, it was a very sloppy run. We actually wiped at the 2nd boss once (which is not in this cut) because bethel decided to talk about hearthstone while the boss was spinning instead of taking him to the pillar (lol).
All in all, the run still only took 33 minutes and if we were actually trying, it could have been done in 22-25 minutes, no dcs involved. Would it have been faster with dcs? undoubtedly, but at most if you are comparing a run where the group is speedrunning without dcs to a run where they are speedrunning with dcs, you are looking at a 4 minute difference, max.
The point being, if you want to run without dcs, you can still do the dungeon in a reasonable time frame. I am not denying that it is faster with dcs, but arguing that dcs are make or break for this dungeon is a complete and utter fabrication. Is a good tank and healer a must? Yes, absolutely. Do I think there is something wrong with that? No, not at all, I feel having 1 tank and 1 healer at minimum should be a requirement to run content.
It does not proves anything when u are still using class build that are in meta. Class like gwf IV sentinel, archery HR etc are still out of the game. Player playing those class are still forced to abandon their class to play those that are in meta. It is more balance in the past when at least there are more viable class specific tree build than there are today. Until the developer are able to buff those non meta class up to the meta level, it does not solve the issue where class build in this game are rigid and are forcing player that does not follow the meta out of the game. Call it a bad build if u want but it still does not deny that those class need a boost. Class build in this game are no longer as flexible as in the past. There are more tree path that u could build into and still call it viable back then. It will get worse as more class tree are rendered dead and not revived. Just saying.
I am sorry but I don't think the lowest common denominator should be able to complete endgame content. Either accept that your build is bad and play something that works or stop whining about content that is designed for builds that work, or try and get your build fixed by asking for reworks. There is nothing wrong with the dungeon, there is everything wrong with your entitlement philosophy.
What if the developer decides to buff archery path too much while making trapper and combat to be close to non viable like back in mod 4? Will u speak the same or will u simply just switch ur stance saying trapper and combat are the "lowest denominator" aka bad build? If u do switch your stance, it will only show your lack of understanding in class balance. But if u still speak the same that archery is a bad build, then I pity your bias towards that tree. Either way, it makes your comment questionable.
The only person who lacks understanding is you. There will always be a best and a worst, unless everything is uniform which would just make for a dull game. By choosing to play the worst, you are only gimping yourself. So long as every class can complete everything, it is ok, it does not have to be beatable by every build on every class and nor would I want it to.
No, each class feat should be balanced not for the sake of dullness but the opposite. Creating imbalance class feat will only push towards rigid build where every tom and hairy is taking the same feat. Balanced feat gives people choice. Just look at gwf. We could see people playing IV sentinel back then where as now, everyone is destroyer.
In fact, if I had it my way, CR would be so hard that 99% of the people who can currently finish it would be unable to do it as well, that is how much harder I want content to be. I want stuff to be so hard that players spend days to weeks figuring out works well and how to beat it, because challenge and adversity is how you become better, its not by facing content that can be beat by any composition with any group of people.
Speaking of self entitlement, u do know that your idea should not be forced into the community while ousting those who didn't think the same as u do, out of the game. If it is to accommodate everyone, the solution is to created a dungeon difficulty option.
No, my idea is to create some content that caters towards the subset of players that wants hard content, because right now, there is none. There is plenty of content that caters towards people like you who want to play builds that are the equivalent of a spec made by a random number generator, there is no need to cater more towards that part of the playerbase.
The problem is there is no Tong or CR easy enough for casual players and there is no eTOS hard enough for hard core player either. That simply close down the option for both side. Both has limited dungeon to play.
No, there is no problem with that at all. I don't see why everything should be beatable by everyone and why there should be an easy or hard version of everything. Having only a hard version gives you something to work towards.
People could still work toward harder difficulty if they seek challenge? Or rewards should scale with the difficulty for those that seek rewards? I played DDO. They have a group of people that play for challenge like u do. When the developer introduce the reaper mode ( FYI previously they have casual, normal, hard & elite. reaper mode is a new set of difficulty scaling from r1 to r10 ), they work their way up to r10 just for the challenge. That guy even make videos on reaper series where he show his progress with his group of friend. Anyway difficulty option does not prevent people from working hard to achieve challenge.
Comments
So do tell, how these patch notes changed anything? The only relevant is SoD from mod14 change, and as I've said, I refer to before that change. For example consoles do not have it yet, we can take them as example.
So please, lets not jump ahead of the carriage... Or it may run over..
Also you can use the same argument on yourself, you are comparing it to the rest of the classes without maining them?
Also what I play or not play is not relevant, again, feel free to correct what I'm wrong at, or not. Maybe my not 'main' CW is more game-time and better understanding of the class than others who main it?
Maybe I address other concerns that are not CW specific?
If your only intention is to get enough CW buffs to eliminate the need for any other class, or change everything to controllable, regardless of what it do to the game as a whole, and players at other game level, then indeed this discussion is a waste of time. 1. What is my main has to do with my ability to see what is the meta? Please focus on the point, or you want also discuss my blond hair and blue eyes? You can disagree/disprove what I'm saying or agree, "LOL" or a discussion about what I do will not do either in regards of CW capability.
2. Lightning CW was not short on DPS, unfortunately bloody course didn't work to full effectiveness. Which created the discrepancy of FBI vs Tomb, and CW vs GWF (at that time). Comparing (As much as comparing can be done) without bloody curse, and they were similar) I've addressed that.
Remember this: What you are doing is a form of entrapment. Haha.
I don't know what you are trying to justify now ... I don't know if I want to get embroiled in something like this. You ask a question and you get a response. Then you say my response is attacking you?
Please ... Surely this is a rhetorical question. Or are you asking me a leading question for other reasons? What good are you trying to get from this?
I don't think I can take you seriously very much any more if you continue to argue with assumptions rather than logic, reason and facts.
Re: TRs have received more than just the SoD buff this year - from your perspective, those powers are not used. Well, they are used, and yes I know because I also look at ACT logs and see them being used. Just because you do not use them does not mean others do not - that is a logical fallacy and borders on solipsism.
But to bring the point about "Lighting CW" I am not referring to the Spell Storm CW, but rather the lightning enchantment proc: I'm not sure what you are referring to here, as it seems to be jumping to a different argument entirely! You are harder to catch than a MI Sab in PvP!
Where I had issue with your response before that one? I've asked and you responded, and part of the discussion I've asked you to re-read the thread again (not your posts) and look at it not as CW but in general terms.
You took it into personal parts, quoted irrelevant things, that not relevant to this CW discussion or the thread. Now you jumped to a post from last week, that no one has issue with?
I have no clue what you want... Why you now bring up that post?
I'm laughing.
Sorry, for how it might seem. Really, can we just drop it for now? I think we are going in circles.
I believe it is realistic assumption.
2. No it's not me, but high end-game TRs. And that was the difference between being lackluster and crawling higher on the food chain.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/10Dwtx9Or-UOhrZOKwOWz8_O_Yzu_mX3Q5xE-QX6OkGA/edit
https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vTPwgW3YB-JQaQb8VU7aoSy3TlWVAHu9sdXUC1fFSjmFEeioeqSErekITGB509P9HqTNIlomE_sTa6m/pub
and more.
Those buffs didn't change anything, and if you saw someone in ACT use those powers, congratulations, but the argument was that it is not dev changes that made TRs what it is...
3. What to be lost about? I've quoted exactly what I respond to.
You say
" CW were not dominant before the lightning enchantment nerfs - they were already middling and on the decline..."
I've responded
" Lightning CW was not short on DPS, unfortunately bloody course didn't work to full effectiveness. ...."
What is the difficulty here?
I did say: I said "seems". This was my opinion. Yes, I see no difficulty, but those statements are disparate.
I believe the 1st statement was referring to you saying: It was my opinion, and experience, that CW was not at all the dominant class even when lightning procced on all encounter ticks for some powers.
Then you mentioned about the bloody curse? I don't know how that was relevant to the 1st statement.
For general context, and as I've wrote somewhere in one of the posts, I do think that SS thaum should be the DPS path, and not MoF Opressor, and changes should be made accordingly to buff the SS path, and god knows what to do with oppressor.
My mention of bloody curse and multi lightning proccing CW was about perception of the CW class and how things spiraled down in relation to group forming.
Before Tomb, CW was arguably ok (yes, I understand that you disagree here, and maybe it was a decline, but I would say they were in still in ok position, we can go into videos of dps races, and one phases, but please lets not go into this as it is endless and not the most important point). There was no issue of it being main dps for FBI or SP and main DPS bosses.
The Tomb came, it was both more difficult and a DPS check, that required a better performance personally and as a group. It also became the measuring stick for classes. And here comes the main problem, that measuring stick, and specifically Orcus bloody course, it doesn't proc on half of CW procs, so effectively lowering CW capability on the boss. That being the measuring stick of the times and CW not performing well there created a situation where people preferred other classes as DPS (namely GWF) and CW to go as support which chain reacted into many ungeared people riding the "MoF" bandwagon as it takes no gear and join parties as "Buff MoF" which is fing debuffer.
The combination of that bloody curse bug, and people jumping on an opportunity to get into tombs with low geared alts in the name of "MoF support" created hordes of CW that can't DPS, and make CW look like an extremely lackluster DPS class.
The proc changes later and not everyone adapting to MoF Oppressor as the DPS build (and understandably, not everyone can expect that, and track every change) further reduced the CW reputation as DPS.
The point is that CW current situation in grouping is at least in part, not due to the CW actual performance, but a reputation and perception as bad DPS and only support, while CW can actually DPS as main DPS successfully, and the shunting is not justified, as probably up-to-date CW knows from private groups and successful runs.
It will end up as a trade off, people can prove now that CW can do everything needed to be done, and it will help the grouping issue for all CWs but lower any buffs that may come.
Or on the other hand, enforce the perception that CW is extremely bad, which will make grouping for many CWs now harder, or force them into supports, but if / when class buffs will come it will make CW the FOTM class.
This is how it is.. and for all classes.
I hope that clarifies that context, and the point in general, that the perception of the class, and not specifically its actual performance has a lot of influence in terms how people create groups. This is not unique to CW, and happens to all classes at some point.
"Sorry, I guess we all biased and what not, but I wouldn't say DPS CW has a much harder learning curve than the rest. And I do play CW... ( But far less than main, as a personal preference, that I don't have the energy to keep up-to date ) "
We all biased - in terms of what we play and what we main, how much we invest in each class, and how deep into perfecting it.
And that I, from my expiriance wouldn't say that CW is.. the rest of the quote.
As it is subjective, I was hoping to not start the discussion by providing a honest perspective that I do play CW, but not as much as the single other class I play, and more than the rest of classes.
I note how you put a lot of emphasis on perception, but if you take a moment to read how other people's perception of their own class is, then surely that must hold some weight? What I mean is (and I do not just want to drag this back to the CW, however, that has been the example here), is that I, and a number of other people, have experienced a drop in DPS of the CW. This is a personal perception of our class. How can you discount that a number of experienced CWs feel that they can no longer compete DPS wise by the 3, and possible 4, "DPS" classes currently: GWF, TR, HR, GF (in no particular order, except for the 4th).
It isn't that I lack for knowledge about how the CW functions, and what it can do. It also doesn't mean that I also lack for knowledge in other classes. I have run TONG perhaps 5 more times on my DC than my CW. I have more UES in the bank than I can work with at the moment, so I do not lack for experience or groupings into TONG. In those runs as a DC, I have been fortunate to run sub-15 minute TONGs. Not the best runs, but still good in my opinion. I have run with very experienced TRs, HRs, GWFs, CWs, SWs, and GFs as primary DPS. In all that time, the number of times that the CW has been primary DPS I can count on my hand. And yes, this is a mixture of both pre-made groups, guild and alliance members, friends, channels and the occasional random queue or PE /lfg when I feel like up for a challenge and something different. The best TONG run times, were when the primary DPS was run by a TR, GWF, HR and funnily enough a SW (but it was a buglock). The difference in times is a matter of minutes, say 15 minutes compared to 18 minutes (which was the best that the primary DPS CW attained). 3 minutes may not seem a lot as an absolute number, but as a percentage of time for the dungeon it is a 20% difference. Again, perhaps my sample size is small, but when I look at other threads (and not just this one, but the topic of the CW cropped up, as it is affected by the aforesaid meta in the OP original post), I also see the same complaints.
A forum is place to express our opinions. I have expressed my opinion, and you have yours. Know this, however, because the CW was the first class that I played, that I fell in love with, I use it as my examples and experiences in this game, and in the current meta. I know how much the CW has fallen. By others stating that it is only a perception, is missing the point. It is a matter of other people's perception of the class, true, but when the perception is from the class itself, the class that knows the most about itself and how it performs, then who are you to discount that perception?
If CW best time is 18 minutes ? I don't believe so, but as CW is enclosed in their facebook group (which were a great initiative long ago, but imo not so now) I can't tell you much beyond those that I play with.
Interestingly, when a mod ago there was "dps" rating posted on some blog, and CW was not on top, some CWs posted that it is biased and that people just don't know good CWs.
Who is right? I don't know. My personal opinion about CW changes I've already wrote at the beginning of the post.
I can tell you one thing, and this is how we got to TR changelog to begin with, a year ago we were in the same position, with bad reputation and decline.
As I've pointed out, regardless of those dev changes, that actually were discarded and do not affect anything, today on consoles (no SoD change) TRs do not have the same reputation issues. This happened due to adapting, learning to utilize support classes better, new gear, and a discord of over 1k TRs, squeezing the maximum out of the class.
I thought I know the class, yet, in group thinking I was shown how it can be much better.
It may apply to CW, it may not.
But you know which class didn't even have a discord until 2 weeks ago, and even that one wasn't made by a CW players, but a GF player trying to help.
So grouping was brought up, and decline, in DPS, sure perhaps CW sucks, but as I see it, it sucks much less than in general people make it so (not you, in general), and there is much more to do to make it better and its reputation even before the devs
will remember to class balance one per a millennia.
I've said that CW grouping suffers from bad reputation and explained how it got there. The main point was not your perception of your class, but others of your class.
This thread is about many things, one of those is grouping, and for that a CW perception of its own class is not important, only important how well they adapted, and what others think, and in general there is a lot that can be done in both aspects to make CW better without any patch notes. As you've said, just another forum poster, same as you. You can disregard what I'm saying, you can think that here is another "class x" wan't CW nerfs, or maybe I have personal issue with magic users.. Or what not (There is another thread, that someone took a single line from several posts and dragged it into how I hate CWs or something when it was just a freaking example of something that was actually happening in mod4 and can be easily said for any other class), but anyway, or you can take from this change things, maybe it will help, and you will see that actually CW is in better place that it looked like, or maybe it wont help, and you need all the buffs you can have.
But at least, a more coherent idea can come out if it, and not one asks for DPS because that what they signed up for when they started the game "wizards and fireballs" while another want the class to return to it's namesake "controller" and not DPS.
You can look as example of what we did, when the suggestions where group idea, thought over, refined, most discarded, and only the few most important posted. Later we just gave up and make do without dev changes. So you can take it as advice from expiriance or not.
Right back at ya!
Yes there was a meta long ago, of 4-5 CWs in a party for CN, it was worse meta than now. Should I copy the explanation again for you?
Here is the thread for anyone to judge
https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/comment/13043375
So again, you need to check you density levels.
Here are the full posts btw: Some things, there isn't a single healer conceived can heal...
Right now, every class has at least 1 viable build to be used. Right now, there is at least 1 guide for every class with good information to progress and use the class effectively. The game feats/power descriptions are not optimized yet, and the guides help people understand them.
Right now, there are many videos and streamers who do NWO content and explain it to others.
And finally, right now it is possible to build meta/non-meta groups with 3-5 different classes and successfully complete the dungeon.
It is fine and commendable to play with your friends and family, but in NWO, some game features are still "coming" and boss tactics are one of them. If you truly wish to succed in your family/friend runs, sit together and watch some videos/read guides about the dungeons you are about to visit.
Additionally, there are really good guides made by several, not just 1, but several experienced people of the same class to aid casual players like me, who don't have time to explore and test every part of the game. Those guide explain you how to be effective in combat and how to build your character.
In conclusion, I don't undestand why you are complaining with so much resources at your disposal. NWO suffers from ignorance, in terms of people wanting to enter the game and kill everything on first try without properly optimizing their characters or learning the fights. As someone above said, normal versions of the current high IL dungeons could help with the latter, as players potentially would remember the tactics from the normal mode..and maybe follow them.
I wish you luck and lots of fun!
Safe travels!
Almondum.
However, I still disagree that introduction of the better and more available CC in dungeons would make content "too easy". It would increase the DPS of CWs by some 4-5% tops, but otherwise wouldn't really hurt the party composition by any reasonable margin.
Yes, every class has one viable build and, yes, everyone can beat content with viable builds. What a wonder. If that was all you wanted to post, congratulations, you've successfully preached to a choir and managed to attack me for no apparent reason other than to write something that not even remotely connects to everything stated here, yet relates to the very fact you yourself are using as an argument, and that is that MMO's are changing and adapting constantly, so why do you offer such contraditction to begin with is beyond me.
First you accuse me for complaining, then you yourself start complaining that people shouldn't "complain" because MMOs constantly change. Virtually nobody I know in this game, who played more than two days, wanted to get in and kill everything in sight. Maybe and just maybe it was me, but I'm already way too crazy of a guy and player in NWO, messing around with every single thing you can tinker about, so I'm not a good example I guess.
Although I wouldn't call people ignorant, people are not familiar with the game enough to understand what the major problematics are from a moral standpoint. And not just moral but also a longtime problem which will arise and produce more problems down the line. And I've seen people in this thread successfully realizing this, albeit in some apathy based on expertise with NWO changes in the past, so why can't you? What is so difficult to realize about party compositions?
Perhaps it would be better to say that people are afraid of changes after investing a lot into their builds in order to be more successful in beating a specific content. And whoever did so inevitably got burned hard at one point or another, thus making people afraid to invest into something because they are afraid of how Cryptic might change it later on.
As far as experience goes, everything that is overused becomes obsolete at some point. And at the moment power sharing is super-overused and for some reason it is still viable.
But that is not the main problem. No. After the Power Sharing is gone, and if it becomes gone, nobody knows that right(?), the party composition problematics befall the content itself. BAM
Why so? Well, simply put, one-two shots by enemies. You can avoid this in dungeons which are relatively hard.
Here, yesterday I beat CN with my wife. it took us some 20-30 minutes and we had fun playing like that.
It is refreshing and nice to build your own character which can survive dungeon based on your skill of both micromanagement of boons as well as pet choices also followed by adequate gear.
And that is RPG essentially for me. RPG for me is not to call a 911-OP/DC combo each time I have to beat some hard content. That defeats the purpose of progression JUST BECAUSE there was this faulty agenda to make people play with tanks and healers at all times. Potions got nerfed, classes got nerfed, enemies got upgraded and epic dungeons got changed drastically.
This MOD 6 agenda still prevails and it shouldn't.
If even after all this time there are always OP/DC lacking to joining parties, it doesn't work, you can't make people play like that and people will rather skip content altogether than play it. Especially evident for FBI/MSP etc.
People would rather play Hunts in Barovia than playing dungeons, unless they specifically play dungeons to gain something. I've seen people saying "once I get weapon I'm out of this CR". And this tells a lot.
My complaint is that I can't get into the epic dungeon content without carrying a tank/healer combo. Notably CR that I am interested in because - vampires! Otherwise I wouldn't care one bit because the way Epic Dungeons are made is stupid and not really inviting.
I do not realize why people get so happy once they finish some dungeon when in fact they were carried thanks to Tank and DC offering power sharing and debuffs. So, no, it is not about skill and it is not about knowledge or experience. It is about surviving it because it is hard to beat, and is hard to beat for no apparent reason other than to fuel the already great divide between the class choices.
No, I can't go without tank/healer into CR. Sorry, it just wouldn't make sense to do so, if anything just because of Sisters themselves.
And, yes, I do not find it to my benefit and personal preference or skill to beat content where I am carried around like a child by papa OP and mama DC. Going to say that every time. That is not how I want to play the game because it DEFEATS the purpose of building a character.
To me a character should be built in order to be able to survive any content. If there is going to be some very epic content it should be made for at least 10 people and not just 5.
Keep in mind that this was a very casual run, in laggy circumstances. We were typing/messing around and not really heavily focusing on what was happening during the run. I messed up a lot (forgetting to use soul sight crystal, killing grace at the first boss with the reflect mechanic, not really following any rotation at all, etc). All in all, it was a very sloppy run. We actually wiped at the 2nd boss once (which is not in this cut) because bethel decided to talk about hearthstone while the boss was spinning instead of taking him to the pillar (lol).
All in all, the run still only took 33 minutes and if we were actually trying, it could have been done in 22-25 minutes, no dcs involved. Would it have been faster with dcs? undoubtedly, but at most if you are comparing a run where the group is speedrunning without dcs to a run where they are speedrunning with dcs, you are looking at a 4 minute difference, max.
The point being, if you want to run without dcs, you can still do the dungeon in a reasonable time frame. I am not denying that it is faster with dcs, but arguing that dcs are make or break for this dungeon is a complete and utter fabrication. Is a good tank and healer a must? Yes, absolutely. Do I think there is something wrong with that? No, not at all, I feel having 1 tank and 1 healer at minimum should be a requirement to run content.
I understand the position that you're coming from. I have to disagree that tank and healer is a must for any content and point is that OP makes both classes at once, known as Healadin. I do not like that we're talking class roles without class roles. I do not like that the community's pretending like everything is good when it's quite stagnant.
So there we do have a problem at start because the class roles have changed drastically just to fit that narrow spot of "tank healer" combo. And this plagues NWO for quite some time now because we have two SUPER classes. And as much as some would like to argue that OP/DC combo is "fine", yet other classes should come around that glowing combo pillar and just play as some gray "DPS" class, there's going to be a problem. So that goes out of the window pretty quick as there are no "Tanks and Healers" in this game, at least that is not the main reason OPs and DCs are invited to the groups in my experience.
There is just no point to bring that content is beatable with a tank and healer, the point (one of) is that it shouldn't be absolutely mandatory and that there should be ways to mitigate or evade it without focusing on the mandatory tank position in the group. Of course, this is one of the weaker points, but it fits into the narrow space with such arguments relating to the party composition at at later stage.
I can sum up to three different points being made.
1. Fastest runs with power sharing, power sharing too good. I do not want it nerfed, I want other classes improved and eventually the content itself. This is an optimal case scenario, but given the history it will probably be nerfed at one point or another or it will be some other class getting boosted a bit, yet broken to good heavens, thus becoming the next meta for another year or so.
2. If optimal case scenario from point one is made, great. If power sharing becomes nerfed there is another problem - Content demands a Tank and Healer roles (first one a bit more mandatory) due to the way mobs attack or destroy groups with various skills. Problem is that Paladins are both Tanks and Healers at the same time, leaving enough room for a DC, who should be a healer by all logical and reasonable points, to become a total buffer. And not so long ago the buffs stacked, so it was 2xDC combo. Even after the nerf this didn't change as 2xDC are still in the parties. So even if we go by the logic that it is MANDATORY to have a tank and healer (and we all know who tanks best and heals best), and even if by some miracle DC becomes a meta healer, it still leaves the party problematics.
3. Party composition problematics - Since the hardships of content in contrast to the benefits of the paladins and clerics have created a cancerous environment which lasts for over 6 mods, making it actually be valid would take some heavy work from developers revolving around
- Managing power sharing so that either all classes can provide it, or diminish it's effectiveness completely after which would totally open at least two or three new can of worms...
- Of on the major cans would revolve around having to figure out how to make the shiny, glowing pillar of awesomeness known as >>>Op/Dc combo<<< to stop providing THAT much benefit, which leads to the next can
- Content provided. Now, this is what made me think about the problem and it revolves around how awesome the hunts in Barovia were made. Make no mistake, this is by far the best content NWO saw since who knows when! Stated by many as their favorite innovation and finding a perfect balance between prize / run ratio, constantly having the potential to earn more posters, buy/sell posters and whatnot. It just works and works amazingly.
This particular content it is not mandatory for people to bring a tank unless we're talking about Donjon Sister run. For that people do need to bring a tank and perhaps a healer, but also reduce the Sister mechanic power which grabs you over the half of the map. The point is that ultimately the content provided governs how the party should run, but with Barovia hunts there are no penalties for being new to the game or being an old player. There are no penalties which are based on how many damage or healing you do, like in Tiamat. There are no penalties which would reduce the benefits you might receive. You are welcome to try once you beat the introductions quest. You are welcome to be a part of the group which you may find either in the guild, alliance chat, zone chat or even LFG sometimes.
There are no Hunt specific groups to my knowledge and I ran with GF/GWF and 2 TRs. And we had fun together because for the first time in years there was an end-game content revolving around playing however you want without getting a heavy penalty for not going with a tank or healer.
Not once, not a single time, it is UNHEARD of in any group I ran in hunts that someone blamed anything on anyone in the party. There was no "Why don't you tank better" or "Why didn't you heal me" or anything even remotely like that. There is no damage counter. There is no 40 minutes stressful runs which would destroy your willingness to play (and the rest of your day, too) because not only do you need to take care of yourself, but also have to explain to others what they are doing wrong in the dungeon creating unnecessary arguments which could take forever till the point you realize that you either play with elitist friends or do not play at all. And the same things happens because of the PUGs, but it's not weird to have that even in guild or alliance, too.
Yet, all of that ignorance and lack of knowledge simply disappears once they are in Barovian hunts. And it produces a very, very healthy environment where even mistakes are taken and laughed at, with people having great time, making internal jokes and using SPICY runs. Weak spice, medium spice, heavy spice, holy <font color="orange">HAMSTER spice, RIP spice etc... And it makes ti a bit more interesting.
The point is, if it ultimately comes down to changes regarding the content itself, it should follow down the Barovian Hunts example because even if it would be super fast to run with power sharing duo-trio-quartet, it is not mandatory since the mobs won't hit like a truck (and even if they do, use LS, switch to a shield, use that AC bonuses etc) to make for a nice run.
Having to go to Barovian CR to get weapon and then 15+ more times to get ingredients? No, not good. Extremely bad example, more so given that weapons themselves will get obsolete once the new mod gets introduced with weapons which offer up to 50 more damage and thus makes all that effort of going to CR completely obsolete, useless and void.
So, ultimately, content should change and avoid the cancerous duo as the mandatory fellowship. That's my opinion since nobody should be obliged to run with a tank and healer and especially not in DnD game. I am for Tank and Healer only in scenarios of 10+ players dungeons.
In fact, if I had it my way, CR would be so hard that 99% of the people who can currently finish it would be unable to do it as well, that is how much harder I want content to be. I want stuff to be so hard that players spend days to weeks figuring out works well and how to beat it, because challenge and adversity is how you become better, its not by facing content that can be beat by any composition with any group of people.
No, my idea is to create some content that caters towards the subset of players that wants hard content, because right now, there is none. There is plenty of content that caters towards people like you who want to play builds that are the equivalent of a spec made by a random number generator, there is no need to cater more towards that part of the playerbase.
Another game I play, Path of Exile has more viable specs then this game has possible specs and it still has myriads of specs which are not viable at all and nor would I want them to be. Not every spec should be able to beat every piece of content. I would argue 50% of being able to beat content should be your build and the other 50% should be how you play it. If everything can beat everything, then a part of, "knowing how to make your character work" is gone.
(https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9-XxuSfsXQ1U9yKUvQSxjw?pbjreload=10) if u wanna know.