I can sum up to three different points being made.
1. Fastest runs with power sharing, power sharing too good. I do not want it nerfed, I want other classes improved and eventually the content itself. This is an optimal case scenario, but given the history it will probably be nerfed at one point or another or it will be some other class getting boosted a bit, yet broken to good heavens, thus becoming the next meta for another year or so.
2. If optimal case scenario from point one is made, great. If power sharing becomes nerfed there is another problem - Content demands a Tank and Healer roles (first one a bit more mandatory) due to the way mobs attack or destroy groups with various skills. Problem is that Paladins are both Tanks and Healers at the same time, leaving enough room for a DC, who should be a healer by all logical and reasonable points, to become a total buffer. And not so long ago the buffs stacked, so it was 2xDC combo. Even after the nerf this didn't change as 2xDC are still in the parties. So even if we go by the logic that it is MANDATORY to have a tank and healer (and we all know who tanks best and heals best), and even if by some miracle DC becomes a meta healer, it still leaves the party problematics.
3. Party composition problematics - Since the hardships of content in contrast to the benefits of the paladins and clerics have created a cancerous environment which lasts for over 6 mods, making it actually be valid would take some heavy work from developers revolving around
Allow me to fix these three points. This is not what has been shown here (in this thread) with concrete examples.
The reality:
1.) Power sharing is not that important. It might make a run slightly faster, but you can still manage a decent time through Castle Ravenloft without a power-sharing DC (even without ANY DCs). You also don't need to spam scrolls without Dragonball Z status Shepherd's Devotion.
2.) All classes are welcome in end-game content. You don't need x2 DCs to complete Castle Ravenloft. The dungeon is already super easy and trivial. There are tons of different compositions that can currently face-roll the "hardest" content in the game. There is not a single class that is left out of end-game party compositions. You also don't need to bring x2 of the same class to succeed. That means that there is a ton of variety when it comes to composing a group.
3.) Developers nerfing power-share is not going to fix your problem. As I said, I am happy with an adjustment to power-share. That would result in harder content. Problem is, that is when players are going to come back here saying "Omg the second boss is now impossible to complete. We need to have fully decked out characters to kill him fast enough! How am I supposed to survive now that I don't have 20K defense and 20K deflect all the time. OMG OMG!" The reality is, if you are a group of good players, that power-sharing nerf won't really affect you much. Your average run might take 4-7 minutes longer. People definitely will be more picky about the DPS they invite to a group. If you are sub-par DPS after nerfs to buffs/power-share, you can forget about getting into any decent groups.
Not to mention, whoever bought that Knox companion is going to be seriously upset. LOL
4.) I am adding this here to acknowledge some of the players concerns here. I have said this before but I want to make this clear. Yes, there are stigmas in Neverwinter. This creates exclusivity in forming groups and favors certain classes.
HOWEVER, the most important point here is that it is indeed only a stigma, you don't need a certain setup to complete Castle Ravenloft, or any of the other content in this game. That stigma exists because of the PLAYERS, not the DEVELOPERS. The game isn't so unbalanced (and difficult) that you need a specific "Epic Dungeon Party Composition" (as this thread is formed around) to complete ANY of the content in Neverwinter, end of story.
The point being, if you want to run without dcs, you can still do the dungeon in a reasonable time frame. I am not denying that it is faster with dcs, but arguing that dcs are make or break for this dungeon is a complete and utter fabrication. Is a good tank and healer a must? Yes, absolutely. Do I think there is something wrong with that? No, not at all, I feel having 1 tank and 1 healer at minimum should be a requirement to run content.
Truth be told. The only way that you will be able to run Castle Ravenloft without any Healer, Tank, or significant buffing is for the developers to make the content easier (for example, 5DPS at 13K as someone suggested lol). If you are struggling with Castle Ravenloft, I recommend looking around online for some information about each and every class in Neverwinter. There is tons of it out there in various formats. Teach your friends, help them get better, and form your own groups. You will learn how trivial the content in this game already is.
This is the same type of problem that already happened with Call of Duty Black Ops 4 (still in Beta). People started to cry because the movement speed was too strong and nobody could aim their guns. People said things like "players are moving so fast. People turn the corner and kill me before I can land one bullet. People are jumping and I can't follow them with my aim." That is hilarious.
My response, get better and succeed. It is not impossible if people are doing it.
Now the developers (of Call of Duty) have nerfed movement speed. Most of the veteran players (many who advertise their game sometimes entirely for free) are already posting videos of other games and talking about how they might not feature Black Ops 4 in the future.
R.I.P. Blops 4...
Back to Neverwinter!
The hardest content in Neverwinter isn't hard for a casual player with a decent understanding of the game's mechanics. If you are struggling, you (or your group) are doing something(s) wrong. The hardest content of the game is entirely boring and trivial for the veteran "end-game" players and there is NOTHING (as far as content goes) for these heavily invested/supportive players of the game. You talk about content like their should be some for everyone. Well their is currently content for everyone, EXCEPT the players who have invested the time and resources to support the game for a long time!
Currently, as far as a challenge goes...
As a "new player", you have plenty of content to run. At "mid-game" you have plenty of content to run. At "end-game" you have ZERO content to run.
Just consider what that feels like for some people...
Keep in mind that this was a very casual run, in laggy circumstances. We were typing/messing around and not really heavily focusing on what was happening during the run. I messed up a lot (forgetting to use soul sight crystal, killing grace at the first boss with the reflect mechanic, not really following any rotation at all, etc). All in all, it was a very sloppy run. We actually wiped at the 2nd boss once (which is not in this cut) because bethel decided to talk about hearthstone while the boss was spinning instead of taking him to the pillar (lol).
All in all, the run still only took 33 minutes and if we were actually trying, it could have been done in 22-25 minutes, no dcs involved. Would it have been faster with dcs? undoubtedly, but at most if you are comparing a run where the group is speedrunning without dcs to a run where they are speedrunning with dcs, you are looking at a 4 minute difference, max.
The point being, if you want to run without dcs, you can still do the dungeon in a reasonable time frame. I am not denying that it is faster with dcs, but arguing that dcs are make or break for this dungeon is a complete and utter fabrication. Is a good tank and healer a must? Yes, absolutely. Do I think there is something wrong with that? No, not at all, I feel having 1 tank and 1 healer at minimum should be a requirement to run content.
It does not proves anything when u are still using class build that are in meta. Class like gwf IV sentinel, archery HR etc are still out of the game. Player playing those class are still forced to abandon their class to play those that are in meta. It is more balance in the past when at least there are more viable class specific tree build than there are today. Until the developer are able to buff those non meta class up to the meta level, it does not solve the issue where class build in this game are rigid and are forcing player that does not follow the meta out of the game. Call it a bad build if u want but it still does not deny that those class need a boost. Class build in this game are no longer as flexible as in the past. There are more tree path that u could build into and still call it viable back then. It will get worse as more class tree are rendered dead and not revived. Just saying.
I am sorry but I don't think the lowest common denominator should be able to complete endgame content. Either accept that your build is bad and play something that works or stop whining about content that is designed for builds that work, or try and get your build fixed by asking for reworks. There is nothing wrong with the dungeon, there is everything wrong with your entitlement philosophy.
What if the developer decides to buff archery path too much while making trapper and combat to be close to non viable like back in mod 4? Will u speak the same or will u simply just switch ur stance saying trapper and combat are the "lowest denominator" aka bad build? If u do switch your stance, it will only show your lack of understanding in class balance. But if u still speak the same that archery is a bad build, then I pity your bias towards that tree. Either way, it makes your comment questionable.
The only person who lacks understanding is you. There will always be a best and a worst, unless everything is uniform which would just make for a dull game. By choosing to play the worst, you are only gimping yourself. So long as every class can complete everything, it is ok, it does not have to be beatable by every build on every class and nor would I want it to.
No, each class feat should be balanced not for the sake of dullness but the opposite. Creating imbalance class feat will only push towards rigid build where every tom and hairy is taking the same feat. Balanced feat gives people choice. Just look at gwf. We could see people playing IV sentinel back then where as now, everyone is destroyer.
In fact, if I had it my way, CR would be so hard that 99% of the people who can currently finish it would be unable to do it as well, that is how much harder I want content to be. I want stuff to be so hard that players spend days to weeks figuring out works well and how to beat it, because challenge and adversity is how you become better, its not by facing content that can be beat by any composition with any group of people.
Speaking of self entitlement, u do know that your idea should not be forced into the community while ousting those who didn't think the same as u do, out of the game. If it is to accommodate everyone, the solution is to created a dungeon difficulty option.
No, my idea is to create some content that caters towards the subset of players that wants hard content, because right now, there is none. There is plenty of content that caters towards people like you who want to play builds that are the equivalent of a spec made by a random number generator, there is no need to cater more towards that part of the playerbase.
The problem is there is no Tong or CR easy enough for casual players and there is no eTOS hard enough for hard core player either. That simply close down the option for both side. Both has limited dungeon to play.
No, there is no problem with that at all. I don't see why everything should be beatable by everyone and why there should be an easy or hard version of everything. Having only a hard version gives you something to work towards.
One of the problems is, once players do actually reach the goal, they are entering the content cold with no knowledge of how the dungeon works... Meanwhile the players that are on their x000th run just want to grind it out as fast as they can & if you get in the way of that... is that a kick-truck hear revving?
The problem is neither the party composition nor the difficulty of the dungeons, but the players and the feeling of entitlement most of them have.
This is a casual game, so most dungeons are beatable by most groups and/or party compositions. Nowadays ppl think, that min IL, sup bar builds, gear and no understanding of any mechanics should be enough, to beat a dungeon.
Run EGWD with a PUG group. You can explain the mechanic with the red wolf, until your fingers are bleeding. Chances are, that one of your fellow teammates will attack it and kill it instantly or run around like a chicken, the red wolf hunting him and you (if you have the boss aggro) hunting the wolf. Ppl 'chilling' out for 10 minutes in a dungeon, that the others cleared in 7 minutes wondering, why the others hail them, to come along.
Yes, every class has one viable build and, yes, everyone can beat content with viable builds. What a wonder.
Your class (CW) has at least 6 viable builds that you can use in PvE content. Even more if you factor in PvP.
Do you have any idea how many people asked me to play as a MoF? You have a viable build for a CW but not for each content, and especially not for the Epic Dungeons. So all in All you have just one, single, solitary option to choose from, unless another CW is a substitute for a buffer in which case one would play as an Opp/Thaum build and another would play as a Rene build. No, you do not have the liberty nor ability to play in public groups as anything other than a very specific class with some very specific set of encounters and with a very specific build. The builds are not viable and your statement is downright 100% wrong and will continue to be wrong until you realize that people will leave the Queue if they consider it a waste of time. And this "waste of time" is a major problem as everyone wants to get things the way they got used to, with papa and mama Op/Dc buff combo. This means that people are generally rather lazy and way too pampered by power-sharing which turned into their safe-zone. Until this is thrown out of the window we can't really have a valid discussion.
1.) Power sharing is not that important. It might make a run slightly faster, but you can still manage a decent time through Castle Ravenloft without a power-sharing DC (even without ANY DCs). You also don't need to spam scrolls without Dragonball Z status Shepherd's Devotion.
Sigh...
a) Power sharing is extremely important as it allows you to finish the content by at least 50% faster. As such power sharing is extremely important and extremely viable. As such your statement is 100% wrong. b) Since most people want to run as fast as possible power sharing is mandatory as it may increase damage exponentially up to 300.000 power altogether. c) This becomes so mandatory and viable once you put the multiruns into the equation. And since some people exploited this before, now you get "WEEKLY LIMITS" on obtaining the items, resources and similar if you want to make a weapon. Action-Reaction. d) You are arguing what's not mandatory to beat a dungeon, but I'm arguing what people prefer and, of course, people prefer to have the content done in fastest possible method. I, personally, do not stand behind such notions as I prefer to have more fun without being forced to play something I do not like. Bottom line - DO NOT LIKE. And this is my right. As such I'd prefer to see more class balance instead of being obliged to play something simply because it may trim away 10 minutes or else I have to deal with unreasonable children who can't possibly understand exactly what you are preaching right now - viable builds.
So, YES, I do understand what you preach, I also support it, but it is HIGHLY unlikely that people will accept that.
Please, do me a favor and start queuing as a StormSpell Wizard in Epic Dungeon content. I guarantee you that you will raise some eyebrows and have people asking questions.
2.) All classes are welcome in end-game content. You don't need x2 DCs to complete Castle Ravenloft. The dungeon is already super easy and trivial.
I can't support such sentiment that Castle Ravenloft is "Super Easy and Trivial". I also can't support the sentiment behind stating that all classes and welcome in end-game content. As with everything, some classes are MORE welcomed in content, and that leaves some classes way behind. The concept of CLASS BALANCE relies on making other less desirable classes and less desirable builds - MORE desirable as they could provide more to the overall party. So, I do not recall EVER stating that some class can't go to a specific location, I stated, well, what I already stated and I'm not about to repeat the whole thing again just because you've failed to realize it or read since you're arguing some very, very, very weird things imho. Things nobody talked about. The META doesn't want SpellStorm CWs. So it is about viable builds more so than viable classes. And then it comes down to viable classes and even at that point the CW is not a really viable class atm. So that's just like some very side-side-point that I will talk about, but probably in some another topic as CW deserves a whole new topic altogether to discuss about.
3.) Developers nerfing power-share is not going to fix your problem. As I said, I am happy with an adjustment to power-share. That would result in harder content. Problem is, that is when players are going to come back here saying "Omg the second boss is now impossible to complete. We need to have fully decked out characters to kill him fast enough! How am I supposed to survive now that I don't have 20K defense and 20K deflect all the time. OMG OMG!"
So, your point 1 here was that Power Sharing is silly and nobody really needs it, yet here you say that nerfing it would make a havoc. Am I the only one to see this absolute contradictory statement of yours? If anything you just jumped into your own mouth with points 3 and 1.
Yes, it would make people play with more skill and less with being pampered by Papa OP and Mama DC. And in the past there were nerfs but people STILL do not want to listen to the devs, and it will end with a huge nerf to the Power Sharing.
As I stated I'm okay with Power Sharing as long as other classes can also bring something that amazing to the table. This is also one of the side-side-points, but I'm okay with that. Look at Paladin. not only does Aura of Courage increases the overall damage of Feytouched weapon ench, not only does ops build Power to give more power, not only can Op withstand extreme beating, not only can Op heal anyone in the vicinity without even lifting a finger, but is also mandatory in a party as the enemies hit like trucks. As such the Paladin itself is a SUPERCLASS. And this is wrong because the class is way too good. Bringing up Op/Dc combo completely changes the very dungeon run up to the point where it becomes the only real viable option. And when something becomes that viable, it becomes meta. And when you want to run with something that's not meta, you're outsider who doesn't know how to play the game, obviously. Hahahaha.
4.) I am adding this here to acknowledge some of the players concerns here. I have said this before but I want to make this clear. Yes, there are stigmas in Neverwinter. This creates exclusivity in forming groups and favors certain classes.
HAMSTER Why do we even discuss when you are going to crumble all your points by stating this? Why are you wasting BOTH of our times?
HOWEVER, the most important point here is that it is indeed only a stigma, you don't need a certain setup to complete Castle Ravenloft, or any of the other content in this game. That stigma exists because of the PLAYERS, not the DEVELOPERS. The game isn't so unbalanced (and difficult) that you need a specific "Epic Dungeon Party Composition" (as this thread is formed around) to complete ANY of the content in Neverwinter, end of story.
I'm sorry but as much as I'd like to agree with you on this, I can't. As much as Developers did an amazing job where that job was applied and nice (like Ravenloft or new Hunts), there are series and series of bad choices going back. As i stated the ripple effects of the MOD 6 damages are still felt to this day and I'm here standing on the side of things and points where that MOD 6 >>>stigma<<< needs to disappear. This isn't a new problem, this is a very old problem which somehow, for some arbitrary reason, still persists regardless of how much the developers are trying to fix it. And there are evidences of it being fixed down the line whether or not it's acknowledged simply because it becomes logical, eventually.
As one of the major examples of how it was done in the past - Lostmauth' set. This. That. Thing. I hated it so much because it was too good not to take. And it didn't get fixed for an entire year. Yet, the thing is the sole reason why Storm Spell feat power got nerfed to oblivion. I quit the game back then. There was simply no point NOT to take it as it was too good to skip. It was so good to the point where everything else pales in comparison.
And this is the exact problematics with the Party Compositions. Some classes like Paladin and Cleric are TOO GOOD not to take. They are the metaphorical "Lostmauth set" which prevailed over the time. They are THAT good and this is a fact. I do not feel like we should substantiate this with numbers as it is common knowledge.
Not that long ago the Lightning Enchantment was another metaphorical "Lostmauth set". And it was more than obvious that it won't last. But it was mandatory to make tremendous damage. And? It got nerfed to the ground for some classes to the point of being NONUSABLE and a major waste of time. Key fact - waste of time.
Post edited by percemer on
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Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
The hardest content in Neverwinter isn't hard for a casual player with a decent understanding of the game's mechanics. If you are struggling, you (or your group) are doing something(s) wrong. The hardest content of the game is entirely boring and trivial for the veteran "end-game" players and there is NOTHING (as far as content goes) for these heavily invested/supportive players of the game. You talk about content like their should be some for everyone. Well their is currently content for everyone, EXCEPT the players who have invested the time and resources to support the game for a long time!
Pure elitist propaganda. Basically, if you want harder content just play with weaker enchantments or similar. Your problem is extremely manageable and easy. The way you are presenting it is some form of self-entitlement. And the same can be said about Sharpedge. If you are "elitist gamer" and "veteran", why don't you actually do something so that other people can enjoy the game, too? Use your knowledge in better ways without pampering to the meta content and without defending unreasonable and void points.
You see, for me someone who is a veteran of NWO will understand and realize where its weak points are and for the sake of receiving a more fair and reasonable content will also pursue the forums in order to point on the unbalanced content, especially when noone else would dare to do it because it shakes the comfort zone.
And look at what happened recently when I reported that Shadow of Demise is bugged? A bunch of "elitist veteran TRs" started QQing. So much about "veteranism" from people who can't accept changes and face the truth. And the truth is that current meta is cancerous for many people who'd rather leave it the way it is than having to deal with devs breaking something, as it was the deal back in the years.
I, however, have faith in the new developing goals and I have the new content as an example to support it. I also think that people have been too harsh on Cryptic for the past actions, but Cryptic's the one to blame as well as more time passes and bugs are left alone only to be fixed after people already spent all their time and effort into obtaining/purchasing/making something. For that Cryptic takes all responsibility, and as far as the playerbase goes - they are the ones responsible for purchasing/buying into things which seem TOO good to be true.
I've yet to find a thing which didn't get nerfed according to my predictions.
So to sum up, not a single point I've made you managed to avert or dismay to any extent. If anything, you've only managed to jump into your own mouth and disregard everything you've just said.
And, yes I do acknowlefdge the point you've felt was so mandatory to mention that there are viable class builds and that when you build a party on your own who knows what they're doing and yadda yadda you can beat the dungeon. Yes, this is crystal clear and wasn't even a thing to begin talking about. It is common knowledge. But we're talking about META and what META demnads. Those are different things. Of course I care for the game as a WHOLE, and not only for 4-5 people in my party with whom I play all the time or with whom I'd play all the time if the game offered the possibility to beat the content I'm interested in with my friends playing with the classes they're interested in without any of us having to make sacrifices and play classes we do not like nor feel comfortable enough to play. We'd go to the extent of making our classes a bit more tankier and HP-intensive if the content required such a thing even if it would take us up to TWO hours to beat it, that's not the point, the point is that it is impossible to do so as there are only two classes which can really tank the Epic Dungeon content and those are GF and OP.
As you can see, it's CLASS-restrictive, ergo it's wrong and bad.
The reason why I'd like to have CC in the dungeons, of course, is because
a) It's made to be that way but it obviously has some bug of sorts which isn't fixed since MOD6.
b) It would provide an alternative way to build a character without relying purely on damage, but perhaps a bit more on a tanky/controller side.
That, my friend, is called CLASS balance and that would provide a rather viable choice. At the moment there is no VIABILITY to play as anything other than damage dealer i. e. DPS.
In the game you have two real gray classes - DPS and SUPPORT. That's it. And as long as some classes outperform in the given, they will be given the advantage in party runs/dungeon content.
And THAT ins't class balance, that's just "make the best possible build to have a chance to go into a dungeon, or else take HAMSTER from people and children in the chat" which creates a rather vitriolic environment and makes people to succumb to it and never, ever play public queue because you never know with whom you might end up with.
Haha, man, enough with the "challenge". That's not a real argument! If you are so concerned about the challenge then go Solo que into Hunts against Sisters of Fury and wear just undies with Donjon, 270% damage and 90% more HP tarroka's and try beating that.
You will find that
a) It is not mandatory for you to take on Sisters with Donjon, 270% more Damage and 90% HP with a full team, as you can enter alone.
b) It would be a trivial piece of cake for an expert and veteran player like you, no?
c) Your dodge mechanics will support you greatly, no?
Voila, you have successfully made end-game content extremely hard since the CR is too easy for you.
I mean, what is your whole point in the topic besides jumping into your own words, contradicting yourself and coming to say "it's beatable". Did you even understand what I wrote and what others stated or is it always going to the furthest shore with you?
Sharpedge can also join that hunt too, since he wants to make CR so hard that nobody can beat it but the select few. Talk about being self-conceited much and then stating how someone else is "entitled". There is already a huge abyss between the players who can beat the content and whose who never even went to a dungeon.
I'd like that you two actually TRY doing that hunt proposal since all you care is "hard content". I do not understand why is that such an important thing, I feel like this is just some side-side-argument, and what strikes me more buffled is that even though you understand just how easy the Op/Dc combo makes the game, you're still not really pursuing to explain why the combo is bad. Instead, you want to skip one problem and build on it altogether and want harder content where the necessity for the cancer such as Op/Dc combo is even greater. You two are completely unreasonable and childish.
Maybe you do not want to see Power-Sharing out of the picture since you've friends playing those classes, maybe you do not want because it's YOU playing those classes, maybe you have some other 100 reasons, but the point should be that the game in terms of class balance is not really about making harder content, but actually making everyone enjoy the content with the class of their preference.
Bottom line : PREFERENCE. And each preference should be good enough to beat content. In the best case scenario the difference between having one class in the team shouldn't be more than 5 minutes altogether. With DC the 30-40 minutes run suddenly turns into a 15-20 minutes run. That is a major problem.
And once you two guys realize that such Sister hunt with mentioned buffs is a hard content, then you return to the realization and consideration of the point I previously mentioned of having a mechanic like CARDS or similar which would increase or decrease the dungeon's challenge, so that we actually have a reasonable discussion instead of throwing mud at each other, then we may actually (again) start over from a more reasonable and valid point of a view and a discussion since this is not going anywhere and I am disappointed that we can't find some form of congeniality in finding the solution to the problem.
If you do not find any problem nor can provide the understanding and realization of the problem being present in the game, then please do not make it worse by trying to derail it further. I only ask a bit of civility.
Thank you.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
If you are "elitist gamer" and "veteran", why don't you actually do something so that other people can enjoy the game, too?
Srly? You really asking this sharp and mrmonkey? Interesting.
Yes, why not? Have you read what they've stated or are you just here to point to the obvious? Do you have anything of value to add to the discussion?
Proposing harder dungeons in order to make a greater divide between the players is an elitist agenda and nothing more than that. I find such propositions to be rather shortsighted and not really addressing the real issue at hand. The content's made to include, at all times, a Op/Dc combo. The content's not made to be equally inviting to all classes as some classes have a mandatory status.
This is the discussion at hand. If you feel like you can provide something useful, without pointing to the obvious regarding my actions, please do so.
As for the helping the community goes, it is always a blade with two edges as you have the elitists who want to keep the "secrets" on the one side and who will openly attack anyone sharing them. And there are those who'd like to profit from knowing something that "nobody else does".
This is not a place for such people who want to gain an unfair advantage. Forum is a place where information should be shared and where the community will help each-other out in finding the perfect solution, but also noting when something's wrong or bad regardless of whether that might irritate someone in the longer run.
Furthermore, my question was referring to the discussion at hand - helping to find a way for everyone to enjoy dungeons and not just the select few.
I do not think that the developer intention is that only 1% of the playerbase gets to the Epic Dungeon and even less that that beat it. I find that to be a no-brainer and a serious insult to anyone playing this game for fun.
The content should be made more approachable without the necessity to include two superclasses within each party. As stated on earlier pages people are getting tired of it. People who were posting other people as arguments of managing certain dungeons have stated their concerns and lack of enjoyment when people ask them to play as a support class.
And as far as the content goes, the CR is a fine line between reason and madness since it is using, by all standards, the Op/Dc foundation for further runs which makes no sense as other classes should have the benefit of going to the dungeon (and beating it) the way they see fit, with or without Op/Dc combo.
Op/Dc combo is overused, boring, not serving any real purpose and it's producing CONTRA-EFFECT since even the "elitist gamers" are stating that the content is too easy and would be even easier if certain cripled classes would suddenly be able to use their skills in Epic Dungeon.
Apparently, some people are okay with some classes being crippled, yet others over-performing to good heavens. As such I do not find such people being able to understand the game balance properly.
For instance CC should be a good substitute for having to take Op in the party. It would introduce a nice, good dynamic at, perhaps, the expense of having to run the dungeon a bit slower, which is a perfect trade for being able to use CC properly in Dungeons. The dungeon would still be extremely harder without Op.
^ That is a good example of a balance.
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Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
As for the helping the community goes, it is always a blade with two edges as you have the elitists who want to keep the "secrets" on the one side and who will openly attack anyone sharing them. And there are those who'd like to profit from knowing something that "nobody else does".
This is not a place for such people who want to gain an unfair advantage. Forum is a place where information should be shared and where the community will help each-other out in finding the perfect solution, but also noting when something's wrong or bad regardless of whether that might irritate someone in the longer run.
I'm dying. I'm dying. I'm dying.
@thefabricant Enough twiddling on the forums, go write a at least one guide. For once, be useful to the community.
Unfortunately u are in the minority, I don't believe u should be able to run 5 dps in T3 dungeons. Also gimping ur character by taking off gear/enchants just makes the work u poured into ur character a pointless effort. U don't have to play a mof, I've run with cw as long as they are the 1st ones to pm or post in alliance. Wat u run is ur choice, who u run with is also urs. The meta isn't perfect but it isn't needed either, that player mentality. Build ur own grps, u probably will need 2 support or at least a tank but u will get through t3 content. As far as cc, I don't really want a return of that in pve. Freezing everything sounds like it would just trivialize the game further, and most likely the meta if that was included would include a mof cw not an ss cw instead of an ac dc depending in the content. Ppl will always find the most efficient way to run the dungeon, rn that is to stack support as buffs are multiplying ur dps. Someone will always feel excluded usually dps because they are a higher population in game that support characters. My advise is just to play how u like instead of worrying about how ppl want u to play, with ur friends, alliance, whatever. Don't worry so much about how others play and don't try to change how they play, u have the option to say no to being a mof so so do we. Having content scale with how much support vs dps would be nice tho, having a separate que for that for ppl who want easier content and those who want harder content.
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited August 2018
1) Please quote for me where I said anything about power share. In this thread I have not taken a stance on it at all. My opinion on mechanics in the game can be found here and I am not going to repeat myself, I don't like hearing the sound of my own voice, imagined or otherwise.
2) The content is not designed around dc and op and the difference in time between a run with or without the combination is in the realm of 4-7 minutes. See comment above featuring a video, try watching it. If you look at the time at the end I believe you will see this:
4) I have contributed plenty to this community and don't have any "secrets" that I keep to "gain an unfair advantage." In fact I believe if you go looking you will find a 20 odd page guide for CR authored by me, with the contributions of some friends of mine.
5) All I have said on this topic is 2 things. The first is that I believe that content is too easy and should be made harder. The second is that I do believe a tank and a healer should be mandatory. As the queue system lists 1 tank, 1 healer and 3 dps as the queue requirement, it seems the developers are inclined to agree with me.
6) Taking off gear in order to artificially make content harder does not make the game harder and it only serves to defeat the purpose of gear progression in the first place. We do not play to stagnate in the same place forever, we play to progress, to get better gear and in turn be faced with harder challenges.
7) I have done solo FBI, duo sp and duod large portions of tong, all with the "no scroll" mentality. I am pretty sure I can solo SP as well, but considering how much I detest that dungeon, I don't see myself trying to do it soon. This does not make the content challenging, it simply means that if you do the content in a way it was not intended to be done it is hard and the multiplayer aspect of an mmo is in my opinion integral to the experience. Group content should be challenging for a group, that is why it is group content and the hardest content should be challenging for the best players, even if that means it is so hard that I cannot do it.
8) Even pugs can finish CR and imo they do it better then premade groups in channels, from my experience (Yes, I have random queued CR).
9) At this current moment in time, my biggest issue with content is scrolls of mass life. I want them flat out removed from the game, I don't want to see them get abused any further to allow players to mess up as much as they like and still finish.
8) Even pugs can finish CR and imo they do it better then premade groups in channels, from my experience (Yes, I have random queued CR).
I random queue a lot and I´d like you to meat the " real pugs" to reverse that point Best of latest experience was a run with two CW´s, from wich the 1. was a virgin and had only one loadout (Spellstorm) and the otherone rejected to run buff since he did 5 more dps than his brother.
I'm dying. I'm dying. I'm dying. @thefabricant Enough twiddling on the forums, go write a at least one guide. For once, be useful to the community.
Way to take things out of the context and make yet another pointless topic derail, much akin to your previous endeavors on my previous topic. Topic derailing becomes you, apparently.
Making a guide for a CW = / = Helping to create balance. Despite the fact that I’ve previously mentioned that I refer to the actual topic at hand regarding the Epic Dungeon propositions, you (and others) somehow try to get insulted and perpetuate mocking instead of actually offering something constructive. That’s the epitome of being childish and you’re not really serving any real purpose here. Difference is obvious and Sharpedge, if anything, provided a rather shortsighted aptitude in this particular topic regarding the balance of the classes in general. His agenda, so far, offered no solution to the problematics to the party composition and aside from that formed a rather conservative and far-fetched view on how the Epic Dungeons should look like, to which I can’t agree nor share even slightly similar sentiment.
Perhaps finding the balance for everyone’s not his cup of tea and that is perfectly fine.
So, to sum up, his contributions in this topic are rather slim, almost nonexistent.
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Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I'm dying. I'm dying. I'm dying. @thefabricant Enough twiddling on the forums, go write a at least one guide. For once, be useful to the community.
Way to take things out of the context and make yet another pointless topic derail, much akin to your previous endeavors on my previous topic. Topic derailing becomes you, apparently.
Making a guide for a CW = / = Helping to create balance. Despite the fact that I’ve previously mentioned that I refer to the actual topic at hand regarding the Epic Dungeon propositions, you (and others) somehow try to get insulted and perpetuate mocking instead of actually offering something constructive. That’s the epitome of being childish and you’re not really serving any real purpose here. Difference is obvious and Sharpedge, if anything, provided a rather shortsighted aptitude in this particular topic regarding the balance of the classes in general. His agenda, so far, offered no solution to the problematics to the party composition and aside from that formed a rather conservative and far-fetched view on how the Epic Dungeons should look like, to which I can’t agree nor share even slightly similar sentiment.
Perhaps finding the balance for everyone’s not his cup of tea and that is perfectly fine.
So, to sum up, his contributions in this topic are rather slim, almost nonexistent.
I have contributed more then you which is the sum total of nothing.
Before you start...Yes I read your original input, @c1k4ml3kc3 . What is it you're essentially asking for? My apologies if I seem a little slow but I'm still confused. Are you looking for content to be developed so you can return to a 5 CW run? Are you looking for the opportunity for a greater degree of diversity among the DPS classes so that team leaders have a wider choice on which types of DPS players they bring to their party? Are you looking for content that can be run by DPS only? I accept if you correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to have hit all those areas in your response.
1) Please quote for me where I said anything about power share. In this thread I have not taken a stance on it at all.
Exactly, which relates to you not really talking on points regarding the present discussion. As you've stated, you're not seeing a problem in anything, and to make things worse you'd prefer to have a even greater disparity among the playerbase which is not really substantiated by anything tangible, I'm afraid. If you could provide a valid, reasonable and methodological reasoning behind offering such a far-fetched opinion, that's be great.
That aside, what is your opinion on the power sharing and do you consider it to be "perfectly fine" or not?
And that aside, it doesn't really matter as I'm not even leading discussion with you as you've not really provided a decent enough argument to begin with since, as you've stated, you didn't mention the power sharing which appears to be the major problem in the given topic.
2) The content is not designed around dc and op and the difference in time between a run with or without the combination is in the realm of 4-7 minutes. See comment above featuring a video, try watching it.
Yes, the content (Epic Dungeons) is made to include Op/Dc combination in all times and right now you're contradicting yourself since you're main agenda, as far as I've seen on the forums revolves around "beating the content in the fastest way imaginable". In fact, you're so persistent with such notion that it became on of your forwarding traits. So 4-7 minutes slowdown on people who know what they're doing relates to how many minutes slowdown to the average group who's not really into ACTing? We're talking 10-20-30 minutes of a slowdown if there's no Op/Dc present, let alone something else.
Furthermore, you're not really providing any counter-argument with your videos since you're still running, in them, with the superclass OP.
Not that long ago you've made a fuss about that it's sort of irrelevant to take Vorpal Enchantment in contrast to the Feytouched because Feytouched simply stands superior, especially when OP is in the game.
So, which would you prefer
a) A recovery-based MoF with Unparalleled Feytouched and Paladin/Healadin with Aura of Courage + 2xAc/Dc combo.
b) StromSpell Wizard with Unparalleled Vorpal enchantment and Tactician GF with Hr/Tr combo.
If your obvious and logical choice falls on point A, congratulations, you've chosen the idealistic party and consider the point B almost completely useless.
Furthermore, the choice a) also provides far more even on lower IL, which isn't the case with point b). And this is the party composition problematics for dummies, basically.
THIS IS the problematics we're talking about here and this is something that we're trying to discuss about. Care to join?
4) I have contributed plenty to this community and don't have any "secrets" that I keep to "gain an unfair advantage." In fact I believe if you go looking you will find a 20 odd page guide for CR authored by me, with the contributions of some friends of mine.
You haven't contributed anything in this topic other than asking for some of the most unreasonable things I've yet seen someone ask in the forums. You're only preceded by that guy who wanted Tax effects introduced. Asking for the harder content would be perfectly fine if the Power Sharing is actually addressed. Since it's not addressed, we're having the Epic Dungeon content being structured upon the foundation of Op/Dc combo since the two classes are highly META effective and desirable more so than any other class in the game. This is a fact you can't argue about, I'm afraid.
5) All I have said on this topic is 2 things. The first is that I believe that content is too easy and should be made harder. The second is that I do believe a tank and a healer should be mandatory. As the queue system lists 1 tank, 1 healer and 3 dps as the queue requirement, it seems the developers are inclined to agree with me.
Recently I've had that "developers agree with me" agenda being told in my face by that one TR guy who stated that Shadow of Demise's not bugged, despite that it was. I'd be extremely careful when taking Devs names in vain. What developers think or may not think is their agenda and their agenda only. Nobody should influence developers in such one-sided ways and to insinuate unreasonable things. And this also wouldn't be the only time you were wrong or not in-tune with what developers wanted, so I believe that you should lower your ball a bit, especially when asking such unreasonable things where you're basically proving only one thing - you do not care for the entirety of the player-base. As such you can't really contribute anything reasonable in this topic regarding the party composition problematic because you've already stated that you're perfectly fine with how things are atm.
6) Taking off gear in order to artificially make content harder does not make the game harder and it only serves to defeat the purpose of gear progression in the first place. We do not play to stagnate in the same place forever, we play to progress, to get better gear and in turn be faced with harder challenges.
The game's philosophy of progression failed many times before and it's not really a stagnant and purposeful plan. not only did power sharing received a nerf, but also did the powers in general received a nerf due to the way people get buffed over the time, becoming virtually unbeatable.
So, no, I do not think nor believe that people who do not play elitistically nor chase all R14s should be punished for not being able to beat the content that you so chose to propose as a relevant solution to...your desire to play harder content?
Okay, that's just you and your desire. What about the rest of the people who play the game? Should they all start calculating and tracing each little percent of damage, heal, life steal or whatever in order to have "fun" playing with their friends and family according to your merits? Perhaps you want too much by asking for harder content, especially when there are everlasting problems not being fixed since MOD6, which are only now slowly being averted for the better.
and, yeah, if you do want to have fun just take of some equipments and artificially make it more FUN for yourself. YOu have all the power and control to equip and unequip items without demanding unreasonable things where you do not care for how everyone else play since you already have your premade choice of people with whom you play on a daily basis.
This isn't only about premade choices, this isn't only about having to find a perfect party, it's about the general meta and lack of the class balance META-wise.
If that isn't something you feel strongly about either way then you're really at the wrong place and I mean this respectfully.
9) At this current moment in time, my biggest issue with content is scrolls of mass life. I want them flat out removed from the game, I don't want to see them get abused any further to allow players to mess up as much as they like and still finish.
If this is your biggest concern about the game then I leave you to it and wish you all the luck solving that "issue" you so chose to remove and by doing that completely destroy people's chances to avert their sudden mistakes, a momentary lag or even Cryptic's chances to earn some extra dollar, which also supports ZEN which you yourself might be purchasing via exchange, and such intrinsically destroy a wide array of an exchange network for people who are trying to abide by Cryptic's rules even though it's a costly (and reasonably so) solution for many who'd prefer not to waste any scrolls.
Furthermore, why do you think that you have the right to ask for Scroll's removal altogether? Again, this is a prime example of self-conceit, more so given how a few moments ago you dare to preach about how MMO mechanics work, and now you want the scroll of revival, which is one of the most prominent items in any MMO I've played, completely removed because you feel it's easy with it? Hah.
Sharp, you're losing your edge.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
I have contributed more then you which is the sum total of nothing.
Hahahahaha!
Yes, I'm sure that the biggest issue that Neverwinter has right revolves around people using scrolls of revival. That hits the spot. Your help is greatly appreciated regarding that.
Get real.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Before you start...Yes I read your original input, @c1k4ml3kc3 . What is it you're essentially asking for? My apologies if I seem a little slow but I'm still confused. Are you looking for content to be developed so you can return to a 5 CW run? Are you looking for the opportunity for a greater degree of diversity among the DPS classes so that team leaders have a wider choice on which types of DPS players they bring to their party? Are you looking for content that can be run by DPS only? I accept if you correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to have hit all those areas in your response.
Dear Major, since my points got lost thanks to people derailing them without providing any reasonable and, well, adult solution to the actual problem at hand, on the first page you may find the explanation by @pterias posted on 11th of July.
That is the best and most informative post in the topic.
My points I have recently stated are presented on the post you've hit "LOL" at.
To sum it up they are all tracing problems in reverse, i.e. what would need to be fixed, which is a lot of work.
Point 1 : Power Sharing superclasses (Op/Dc) being the foundation upon which everything else is built upon, which is a no-go. This has been the case since MOD6, but more so once MSP/FBI etc got introduced. Now, each dungeon succumbs to this form which is practically cancerous and leaves no room for different party compositions. Solution : Make content akin to the Hunts, and keep the difficulty for those who seek such things in the form of Cards(or other trinkets), again akin to the Hunts recently portrayed in Barovia.
Point 2 : Removing power sharing leaves behind the Content being hard i.e Elite mobs hitting people and killing them with ease unless there's a tank present. This shouldn't be the case and a form of control should be introduced, since at least 96% of the rest of the game has it, so that people have a viable way to postpone the attacks of mobs.
Point 3 : A hypothetical optimistic and optimal scenario where classes are reworked in order that each build becomes viable with time disparity around 5 minutes, but not less. This removes the possibility for just one and only classes to be viable for Dungeon content. I.E. TRs could play as a Saboteur instead of Executioner. GWFs could play as Iron Vanguard instead of Swordmaster instead of being completely and utterly useless.
As I mentioned before, CW has many problems and is not a balanced class, but CW as monkey stated too has at least 6 different viable builds (out of which only one or maybe two is for Epic Dungeon content). As such the CW is one of the most balanced, if not the most balanced out class in the game, but other classes still need some form of diversity. At the moment, there's no such a thing. There's always and at all times just one most viable build at all times and that's the ultimate problem, plaguing NWO since it's inception so point three is more of a stretch goal and a dream than an actual solvable focus. The focus which we've seen already being fixed at least three times in the past is power sharing, and it is still something that's way too good in terms of the content itself.
And this invites people like monkey or sharp to state how content is too easy, asking for harder content, without finding the root of the problem itself which revolves around power sharing and tanking in general.
On another hand it also invites people like pterias or that one youtuber who played as a CW to state how they're tired completely of always having to play as a support class, which makes them to kind of forget playing the dungeons altogether.
So major point is - if it is not fun, it doesn't really work. And Epic Dungeon party compositions tend to create more vitriol than anything else! People simply do not have enough patience for others who need to learn or manage something or simply play in the way they prefer to play.
So I hope that this answers some of your questions to some extent.
I will also just mention this - yes, 5 CWs in a dungeon used to be viable, but so did 2 CWs for the last boss in old CN. What people fail or do not want to acknowledge is that nowadays you have Op/Dc combo instead of 2 x CW with Arcane singularity. You basically have the same thing all over again with one class being crippled many times unfairly, whilst there are other superclasses around who are still extremely viable despite numerous nerfs they've received.
On a side note, I do not see how CW's controlling things without damaging them would be a dangerous option After all even when CC was viable, it wasn't used by people in general sense since damage was better and faster. And still is.
So another major point is - Making people to play as OP and DC doesn't really work. It practically makes it into a JOB as rarely do people really enjoy playing as support classes, of course all the glory to those who like to be MVPs but it shouldn't be MANDATORY as in the only viable thing to play as in the fastest way imaginable.
Cheers.
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Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited August 2018
There you go, queue requirements. It certainly doesn't say, "5 dps" does it? Maybe actually click on the link I provided, where I talk about my thoughts on power sharing and buffs in general. As I said, I don't see any reason to clutter this thread, you are doing a fine job of that yourself.
As far as running with an OP goes, you do realize that for the, "1 healer, 1 tank, 3 dps" group composition, you actually require taking a healer right? Since you cannot take a dc (your first requirement) that leaves you with a devo OP, right? And no, an SW is not a healer, you cannot queue as a healer and you cannot heal if there isn't an enemy to damage, therefor, not a healer.
For me personally, all that matters is the number of unique classes. In that respect, the current meta is better then mod 5, I would rather have only 1 class repetition (dc) then 5 (cw), although ideally the dc would not be repeated either (CR is almost at the point where dc is not repeated I feel, it just takes a little pushing). The current meta is much healthier then mod 5, every class is represented, every dps can dps, but it clearly has its own issues, which I outline in the thread I link.
Furthermore, CR is very blatantly designed with mechanics that discourage you from bringing dcs as a support. To start off with, the bat mechanic cannot be mitigated by anything a dc does at all, but it can be mitigated by OP or GF. Furthermore, the sunsword ap buff essentially nullifies 1 of the primary reasons for taking a DO, since it makes it very easy for a dc to use both dailies.
So it is about viable builds more so than viable classes. And then it comes down to viable classes and even at that point the CW is not a really viable class atm.
This is why I posted the CW runs, here you are, viable class, despite your best efforts to show otherwise. The class is not "crippled unfairly" it is still very much a capable class.
As far as your comments on scrolls I assure you, I play from South Africa on a connection slower then you can imagine and I still feel they should be removed. This mentality of "scroll to win" is the most damaging thing in this community right now, or are you completely blind and miss people asking for "exp+scrolls" in channels or people advertising as "dc with scrolls." People won't get better if they are able to press an "I win" button and just continue running. I will be blunt, if I invite someone to a run and they make any insistence that the players in the group use scrolls, I will kick them, as simple as that. I have no issues with a team wiping because they messed up then trying again, I have every single issue with a team just spamming the scroll button because they cannot learn to play and they do do that.
Ravenloft hunts are designed for players like you, how about you run them and stop complaining about content designed for someone else. You are like people who complain that they deserve free tertiary education, or people that expect to be payed for doing nothing. No, you don't, you are not entitled to anything, if you want it, work for it like everyone else. Some people enjoy easy content they can do at the end of the day with family, that is fine, they can do hunts. Other people enjoy content they have to min max every percentage of their character for in order to succeed, let those players have fun as well.
Basically, if you want harder content just play with weaker enchantments or similar. Your problem is extremely manageable and easy. The way you are presenting it is some form of self-entitlement. And the same can be said about Sharpedge. If you are "elitist gamer" and "veteran", why don't you actually do something so that other people can enjoy the game, too? Use your knowledge in better ways without pampering to the meta content and without defending unreasonable and void points.
Bottom line : PREFERENCE.
I cut those two together from an above post and wanted to comment. Why can't an endgamer and veteran play the way he wants? Why can't there be a preference to play in an optimized way? Why CAN'T there be nigh unbeatable content? What is wrong with that?
Endgamers by definition define the meta, because you get to that state by optimization. The challenge for the elite gamer' as you call them is theorycrafting, and optimizing. It becomes a puzzle to figure out what works best together. That is the way it has always worked in video games. That curiosity allows you to run with or without a 'meta (read optimized)' build and eventually run content. So before we start throwing insults around here like you did at sharpedge, be very careful on your own understanding of both sides.
Lets not turn this into a flame war. I'm not attacking you in this post, but lets be careful here, your post comes off a way I don't think you intended it to.
Dear Major, since my points got lost thanks to people derailing them without providing any reasonable and, well, adult solution to the actual problem at hand, on the first page you may find the explanation by @pterias posted on 11th of July.
Generally people who start throwing specific names or groups around causes other to explain their viewpoint as well, that's how debates work. IIRC you specifically called out elitists, and sharpedge, hence they responded to what was perceived as a direct attack.
I'll post my thoughts on the actual content, once I go read pages 3-4, which I missed on my initial skimming. I would invite others to do the same so we can get back on-topic here without the flaming or personal attacks.
I'm a theorycrafter, that means I can answer fairly deep questions with scientific theory, mathematical proof, and some guessing. Ask me stuff!
Do you have any idea how many people asked me to play as a MoF? You have a viable build for a CW but not for each content, and especially not for the Epic Dungeons. So all in All you have just one, single, solitary option to choose from, unless another CW is a substitute for a buffer in which case one would play as an Opp/Thaum build and another would play as a Rene build.
A CW that plays one loadout an entire run is playing bad. Admittedly, I do this sometimes but only when I am casually running with my guild, chatting, and too lazy to manage myself. LOL. Seriously though... it is bad to play one loadout through a whole run.
When I am with normal parties (not slacking) I personally play all of these loadouts, switching mid-run when it is a good idea: MoF Renegade AOE DPS hybrid (rarely) MoF Renegade ST DPS hybrid= single target (again rarely) MoF Renegade full debuff spec for stacking smolders (rarely) <--- I don't have different ST/AOE variants because the DPS sucks. MoF Opp ST Full DPS (often) SS Opp AOE Full DPS (often) SS Opp ST Full DPS (often in 10 man raids)
These are all completely viable and (BIS) loadouts for epic dungeons. Which one is best, only depends on your composition. If you are a good CW, you have all of these and play them regularly.
During the double RP events, I can't tell you how many runs I did as SS. Completely successful and not hindering my group or forced to play MoF...
So all in All you have just one, single, solitary option to choose from, unless another CW is a substitute for a buffer in which case one would play as an Opp/Thaum build and another would play as a Rene build.
Again sorry buddy, but that is simply wrong.
Also, there is more variety now than ever (thanks to loadouts) for gear/artifact/set/mount viability. Personally, I'm not rich enough to afford all options, but it they are there. Don't make me type all that out. If you know anything about the "compositions" you are talking about, you already know what I mean.
No. I am sharing my "opinion" in some areas, yes. However, if you take a closer look at this thread you are posting 0 examples, leaving your side of this discussion only to the realm of "opinion" that is based on your experience with the stigmas of Neverwinter. Some people here are posting concrete examples that the content is completely doable with different compositions, and builds. You are failing to acknowledge that. I'm not trying to flame you or troll you, this has nothing to do with you. I respect your opinion, but it is just that, an opinion.
Throughout this whole discussion you have basically only stated:
1.) I am having trouble finding groups for epic dungeons. 2.) OPs and DCs are not having trouble finding groups for epic dungeons. 3.) I am pressured to play a certain way in epic dungeons. 4.) I want more options when I run epic dungeons. 5.) Epic dungeons require a specific composition, or I don't have a chance to complete it. 6.) You also started this discussion with;
- Spellplague Caverns - Tomb of the Nine Gods - Cradle of the Death God - Castle Ravenloft
First of all, if you haven't even been playing these, how are you commenting about their difficulty? You are basically asking for the content in this game to get easier, and before you deny that again, you literally said...
Why does an EPIC dungeon needs to be that hard so that people can't defeat it without a tank?
The content in this game (any game) should offer a challenge to all players, end of story.
You are asking for nerfs and buffs but you aren't realizing something. After that happens, there will be a new meta, new stigmas, new "ideal" compositions, and new exclusion/inclusion. That is just human nature running its course. When has this game (or any MMO) not had some "meta play" (whether or not it is actually effective).
4.) I am adding this here to acknowledge some of the players concerns here. I have said this before but I want to make this clear. Yes, there are stigmas in Neverwinter. This creates exclusivity in forming groups and favors certain classes.
HAMSTER Why do we even discuss when you are going to crumble all your points by stating this? Why are you wasting BOTH of our times?
No. I am not crumbling my points. My points were clear. I will make them more clear so you can understand easier.
1.) The stigmas exist, the meta exists, the exclusivity exists. 2.) Everything in number 1 comes from players perception, not reality. 3.) You don't need a certain composition to complete the hardest content in Neverwinter in a decent time. 4.) You don't need to exclude any classes. 5.) You don't need to bring x2 of any class to run the content in a decent time. 6.) These "Super-classes" you speak of are not just OPs and DCs. All classes are seriously AMAZING at the moment. 7.) Players are not forced into playing a certain way, there is a ton of viable options for most classes (sorry GWFs)
8.) The content in this game is very easy when people are playing decent. 9.) End-game players currently have 0 challenging content to run. Players at other levels of "progress" have plenty of challenging content. 10.) Time spent by developers balancing around this "Epic Dungeon Party Composition Problematics" idea will only create new stigmas, a new meta, and therefore a different form of exclusivity. 11.) The only way to truly eliminate that (number 1) is to make the content so easy that anyone, with any party, can complete it successfully. 12.) Number 11 would be an extremely boring game, and Cryptic would lose tons of income (added that one just now, but duh?). 13.) I could go on and on but I just realized that I am still only quoting the 1st post out of 20
This isn't a new problem, this is a very old problem which somehow, for some arbitrary reason, still persists regardless of how much the developers are trying to fix it.
I will attempt to answer this for you the best I can. The answer is human nature. No matter what the game looks like, players will always search for the best way to do things. They will share this with others, and if it works relatively well, people will follow.
People are self-interested (in various ways). You are complaining about specific players wanting to run content fast, who are therefore excluding you from their groups. Some players are self-interested in other ways, play with them.
You are essentially complaining about human nature. I will try to make this point clear without going too nerdy with you.
Consider that a smart person once said "[f]reedom in a commons brings ruin to all" (Hardin). Here, Hardin is actually focusing on resources and overpopulation but the core idea is relevant here. Humans are naturally self-interested (building meta) and this causes sociological problems (stigmas, exclusion) in the commons (Neverwinter). You simply cannot change that without taking away players freedom. In the context of this discussion, that means making all builds/compositions/play-styles exactly equal in terms of viability. That would remove an entire aspect that makes Neverwinter great (exploring what works and what doesn't). On top of that, you would need to make Neverwinter so easy that anyone could complete anything. Which would entirely remove any challenge and promote a decline of players' motivation for progress towards a goal (like beating CR for the first time).
Pure elitist propaganda. The way you are presenting it is some form of self-entitlement. And the same can be said about Sharpedge. If you are "elitist gamer" and "veteran", why don't you actually do something so that other people can enjoy the game, too? Use your knowledge in better ways without pampering to the meta content and without defending unreasonable and void points.
Are you joking? First of all...
But way more important than that....
I can't speak for myself, I admittedly haven't done much for the Neverwinter community. I am trying to make entertaining, and slightly informative, videos on YouTube. That is it. Say what you want about me. I am not trying to "rule" or "run" Neverwinter though.
However, that is NOTHING compared to the hours Sharpedge has spent, outside of the game, helping players in Neverwinter. It blows my mind that you can't recognize how much effort this person has put towards helping other players, and he has asked absolutely nothing in return. He does all of this in his free time. He shares the benefits of his work with everyone. THAT IS THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE OF AN ELITE.
You didn't even have a chance to begin creating a valid argument that Sharpedge is unhelpful, that didn't, and won't, make any sense ever. You had all the facts against you before you even started typing that. I could sit here and list all the google docs, videos, spreadsheets, bugs, and free advice that Sharpedge has given to us (including you dude). There is no need for me to do that though. I guarantee that the community is on his side all the way.
I don't even know Sharpedge that well. We have played together a total of (1) times. I am not sitting here backing him because we share some friendship. I am backing him because the facts speak for themselves. He has been such a great person to the rest of this community, and I am sure that 99% of the people reading this (and not commenting) agree with me.
@thefabricant Forget about that comment. You have put in the work, and people have noticed. I personally can tell you that even a huge portion of the Xbox community 100% has your back. There are very few people who would (or even could) do what you have done for the rest of the Neverwinter community.
@c1k4ml3kc3 As I said, I can't speak for myself, but you might as well have tried to call Kaelac useless to the community. That comment makes zero sense. I'm not going to flame you for it, but that is absurd and ungrateful of you. He has undeniably helped you too, whether it is by improving your character, or by enlightening people around you, who may have supported you.
I know, you seem full of knowledge. I'm sorry "buddy", but this simply isn't a constructive discussion anymore. You are expressing your opinion that the content is unplayable and exclusive. People have proved you wrong. You are failing to accept that.
As far as the game goes, adapt or move on. Nobody is keeping you here. If people can do something (and show you they can), you can too. You aren't fundamentally inferior. Work towards making yourself better, so that you can get invited to groups. You kind of ruined your acceptance from a huge portion of the community with that comment about Sharp though, just saying... You should avoid saying toxic things to players who are only trying to have fun and play a video game. I hope you consider that advice.
There you go, queue requirements. It certainly doesn't say, "5 dps" does it?
That's an archaic way representing the requirements which in reality translate to absolutely nothing, more so given that the requirement is at least 13.000, but in reality you want at least 16K IL, more or less. I'd expect that you do not provide such weak arguments and use arbitrary reasoning behind "requirements" as a form of some truth, when in reality we've a Paladin who fits both roles of a Tank and Healer, whilst the DC's used more as a buffer. Surely not a valid reasoning as classes and builds really to go to some gray areas and everything else is not properly defined.
So to sum it up, requirements are just a general notion that should serve as a form of a heading giving you the general idea of what you'd need to beat the content. But that's not the main problem, that's just barely scratching the surface.
As far as running with an OP goes, you do realize that for the, "1 healer, 1 tank, 3 dps" group composition, you actually require taking a healer right? Since you cannot take a dc (your first requirement) that leaves you with a devo OP, right? And no, an SW is not a healer, you cannot queue as a healer and you cannot heal if there isn't an enemy to damage, therefor, not a healer.
The point is that you've ran with OP despite arguing that it's not mandatory. Furthermore, you did not provide an answer to my question of choosing point A or B. Those aren't rhetorical so that we can cut the chase of running around avoiding the point-in-point.
Disagree. The current meta is no different than MOD5, if anything even worse than MOD 5 since it has at least three major issues instead of just class exclusivity. The class exclusivity is just a cherry on top.
I would rather have only 1 class repetition (dc) then 5 (cw)
I think that this is an overused and over-exemplified use of an argument. As far as MOD5 goes I sincerely can't remember having 5 CWs running any content. At most it would be 2 and in very rare cases when the guild was filled beyond measurement it would be 3, but this was due to damage being done more than their CC attributes. And, yes, there was still an outcry for CC not only by CWs, but also everyone else because the CC was out of the picture due to overuses of Arcane Singularity.
although ideally the dc would not be repeated either. The current meta is much healthier then mod 5, every class is represented
In that case you do acknowledge that there are issues and that issues are formed and present, however your opinions are your own and I do not share the sentiment since I've seen people demanding 2xDC. The "ideal state" is just a fantasy, I'm afraid, as the game is something else.
This is why I posted the CW runs, here you are, viable class, despite your best efforts to show otherwise. The class is not "crippled unfairly" it is still very much a capable class.
If you've taken the time to read what I've posted and actually observe, you'd realize very easily that I talk about crippled class in such a sense that CW was crippled unfairly due to the introduction of Lostmauth's set, notably crippled back in MOD6, prior to having CC crippled which forced CWs to fight in a rather melee range at the time, thus making them rather exposed to dangers. Other than that the crippled status still exists due to the way Elite Mobs are introduced with permanent damage reduction and possible CC reduction as well, which makes many of CWs powers useless unless they are purely DPS oriented and infused with recovery options. It practically makes CC useless in Epic Dungeons and ONLY epic dungeons. This isn't only CW-excluded, it affects all classes, however the CW is the one class having a lot of CC oriented spells which are practically never used.
- Imprisonment in Elite Dungeon? I can see some potential use for that spell, strategy-wise. But it is useless. - Icy Terrain freezing enemies for more than a fraction of a second? Almost non-existential, but available in lower tier Epic Dungeons on some enemies. Frozen enemies take double damage from Chilling Presence feat, which CWs normally use as much as any TR uses Lashing Blade or any GWF using Sure Strike. It is basically an essential skill being used, but it is crippled in Epic Dungeons, thus making a CW less of a DPS because it exponentially diminishes actual damage done by some 6%. That's basically 2400 power.
As far as your comments on scrolls I assure you, I play from South Africa on a connection slower then you can imagine and I still feel they should be removed. This mentality of "scroll to win" is the most damaging thing in this community right now, or are you completely blind and miss people asking for "exp+scrolls" in channels or people advertising as "dc with scrolls." People won't get better if they are able to press an "I win" button and just continue running. I will be blunt, if I invite someone to a run and they make any insistence that the players in the group use scrolls, I will kick them, as simple as that. I have no issues with a team wiping because they messed up then trying again, I have every single issue with a team just spamming the scroll button because they cannot learn to play and they do do that.
This made me laugh. Okay, i do see your point, but you're stepping on my toes with a typical "1st world problem" agenda. Scrolls are the least of my concerns atm and if people want to use them, let them use the scrolls. I can't stop people from inviting 2 x DCs either, can I?
Ravenloft hunts are designed for players like you, how about you run them and stop complaining about content designed for someone else.
Every content is designed for all players. There is no "this is for you, that is for me" thing going on. This is something that you need to understand and realize. Not only does that create a rather unhealthy environment in the game, it also doesn't address the problem revolving around WHY it is like that in the first place. We already have one strong division and dismay between the players who want to play PvP in contrast to those who want to play PvE.
And PvP in this game is, again, some of the worst PvP I've seen since forever. I do not want to say the same about the Epic Dungeons, but it's coming close to that and I'm not the only one sharing the similar or even same view. There are more people who think likewise and this is why I asked for a poll of sorts. And that inevitably returns me to the point one of the topic and makes me to go full circle where I can simply state that your contribution to this particular topic is almost nonexistent. You shouldn't take that as an insult to your reputation, but more about the fact that you're not really bringing anything new to the table. And neither is monkey. If anything you guys are simply saying "what can be done, just go with the flow and watch your damn business". This isn't the outcome I'm looking for and this is the main reason why I'm writing on the forum in the first place.
On another point the Ravenloft hunts are greatly praised by everyone, which I can't say about CR. If anything the only people who "cry" the most on the forums are exactly "veteran players" who can't get strong enough Epic Dungeons. And it is exactly those people who've made everyone else feel the nerf hammer on every single power. Thankfully, the Developers know this (to my great pleasure) and they realize that lower tiered players shouldn't feel as obliged to take the toil on their encounters/powers as much as the most high tier players do.
And this leaves us with the problem of high tier players being bored. Perhaps it isn't that the game doesn't offer strong content, but perhaps it is YOU people who can't be satisfied and can't enjoy the little things in various ways. You skip the dungeons so fast that you can't take your time to enjoy, help someone weaker in the process, talk to various people, get into zone runs/hunts etc and try actually enjoying your time for simply enjoying the time itself with people, without thinking who's the biggest number, who's going to speedrun the fastest nor who's going to have the best paingiver chart. I feel like all of that shouldn't be the top priority to ANY veteran player, but instead fellowship and friends who play in a specific way.
For me running dungeons and only dungeons for an entire day is unhealthy and I do not see the point to do so as there are other and better ways to enjoy the game and having fun with other people around with a big Mr. Congenial grin. That's just my 2 cents on that.
I will, however, give you a chance to actually provide some valid arguments in regards to the topic at hand if you so chose. I do not wish to pursue external links to other topics since there are already many people here who've led some valid points and discussions. If you want to join and express your opinion in a civilized and constructive manner (and no, I do not mean talking about how the only NWO problem are Scrolls, get real), regarding the possible solution to the Power Sharing, you're more than welcome. There's no point to have any sort of malicious intent going on from each side.
Thank you.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
I cut those two together from an above post and wanted to comment. Why can't an endgamer and veteran play the way he wants? Why can't there be a preference to play in an optimized way? Why CAN'T there be nigh unbeatable content? What is wrong with that?
There is absolutely nothing wrong with that as I've previously stated. I've provided a long definition and explanation regarding the problematics which rely on the meta building itself on a cancerous foundation, which will ultimately fall since it won't be able to sustain itself. The only question is whether it will be two classes taking the toil, or everyone else having their powers nerfed by at least 20%. We've had both of the given scenarios multiple times not, as pterias also mentioned on the first page.
The content itself shouldn't be made to pamper Tank/Healer combo as a must unless we're talking 10men dungeons. I believe and consider that it's nigh time for healthier environment which takes lessons from the very and extremely amazing Barovian hunts.
The point is that people who are not playing with extremely hi-end points at the end shouldn't feel missing out on the content simply because they can't get around to play it, as the game already is highly time consuming for the general audience. To my knowledge this game is played by majorly older populace, we're talking around 30-35 years of age. These are all adult people, probably with their families and obligations, and they can't really consider spending months and months only in order to get to play that one dungeon. Most people I know do not have that kind of time and possibility, but they still play as they like, enjoy and even purchase ZEN in the game.
The dungeons are unnecessary hard and have flaws in terms of beating the content. It pampers the Tank/Healer combo, which overlasted its usefulness in terms of how it's utilized. Now you can get Paladin to play both roles, and people tend to get the Ac/Dc combo in order to get through the dungeon faster. There's a cancerous SUPPORT META which makes the entire game follow a strict pattern in which nobody's able to do anything unless their support friend isn't online.
So, to sum it up, I stated that uses of Cards akin to Barovian hunts would solve this issue in a quick and efficient manner. Why?
Simply because you'd get people who simply want to experience the content (i.e see dungeon and all the work developers put into creating content) done without much fuss, however also without taking unnecessary server resources to create both normal and epic versions of the same dungeon. No. It would still be governed by same instances, but would have the option to choose the difficulty. This makes people who want to play a bit more casually to do so, and would also allow those who want to play elitistically to do so as well.
It is a win-win-win situation in which casual players get to play the content and do not feel penalized as much, elite players would get their fair share and maybe something extra for beating harder content and the cryptic could find a way to somehow turn that into a profitable outcome if needs be. Does't have to be done with all dungeons, but only those that are part of the MAIN QUEST, and Barovian CR is one of that since the weapon is obtained after defeating Strahd. This leaves so many people left out and it will ultimately be a major letdown to everyone who pursued chasing after such weapon in the first place. Furthermore, the weapon's best attributes only work in Barovia. So that's a lose-lose-lose situation for everyone.
Endgamers by definition define the meta, because you get to that state by optimization. The challenge for the elite gamer' as you call them is theorycrafting, and optimizing. It becomes a puzzle to figure out what works best together. That is the way it has always worked in video games. That curiosity allows you to run with or without a 'meta (read optimized)' build and eventually run content. So before we start throwing insults around here like you did at sharpedge, be very careful on your own understanding of both sides.
The endgamers are practically finding the points of least resistance for maximum optimization, which can turn out to be also an exploity way of playing the game. By utilizing and sharing such information, it can also lead to various nerfs and we've had that happening before. Rarely do I see people stepping up bravely on forums to say that something's broken, and even when they do so are heavily ridiculed by others. Happens to everyone who's trying to make the game a bit better in the longer run.
Generally people who start throwing specific names or groups around causes other to explain their viewpoint as well, that's how debates work. IIRC you specifically called out elitists, and sharpedge, hence they responded to what was perceived as a direct attack.
Sharpedge's being told what he deserved to be told and his actions in this particular topic are blatantly wrong as he's not seeing things clearly enough. I do not allow myself to be swayed by someone's preceding reputation nor I appreciate when someone's acting in such a manner where the lack of civility and understanding is represented. As such I only value and look forward to what he can bring to this topic in particular and observe what his points are in terms of the ongoing discussion. So far his points are rather weak and go in absolute contrast to everything we've discussed here and made around, to the point where it could easily be considered trolling in a subtle way. Of course, I do not believe that his intentions may be like that, but I also do not believe that he needs a spokesman regardless of how you may or may not feel about it. Which in turns only comes close to your post being highly irrelevant and derailing since you're bringing up that. Out of courtesy I will answer you as I do believe that everyone who posts something deserves an answer. His words are weighted by what he preaches, not by his reputation. There was no intention to insult anyone and if I insulted Sharpedge at any point I'd really like that you show me where is that written.
Ah... Again, Sharpedge took a stance which is way different from the stances of people who're in this particular topic, to the point where I can easily state that his stance is rather childish as it doesn't take into the consideration the disparity between the people. Why I say that? Well... I also stressed out that I do not consider someone "elite player" or "veteran player" by what they do in end-game content, but only people who help completely reduce the bugs and with a general and congenial consideration for everyone playing. Sharpedge doesn't strike me as someone who's taking care of people who aren't playing "elitistically", and this is fueled (and argument imho) by his request that Epic Dungeons should be so hard that almost nobody can beat them. This sort of a sentiment isn't substantiated by any margin, whatsoever, nor is constructive and in regards to this topic is highly dismissive and unimportant, which in contrast puts me in a difficult position since people tend to cater to someone's preceding reputation rather than their arguments which in its own right is a logical fallacy and can't be regarded as anything constructive or valuable. Such sentiments are way overboard, more so since they do not offer any valuable or reasonable explanation other than personal feelings of how things should be done. This puts it in a rather dismissive position since everyone "feels" a certain way about one thing or another, and generally speaking the game as a whole shouldn't be compelled to the opinions of elitist players i.e. people who generally simply care to have only new and more advanced content where they can prove their "gaming superiority" or whatever other arbitrary reason you may find behind it. It's a very tiny portion of the game. What strikes me, personally, is that someone would consider themselves elitist players whilst being pampered by mama DC and papa OP. Having that sort of power at your disposal without you acknowledging just how good it is to me it means that you're not really an elite player and not really a veteran. It is easy and we have people stating here that content is easy and, yes, it becomes easy once you've got OP to hide behind his back, of course. So the problem befall two major points
CONTENT = SUPERCLASS (everyone else)
These two things are mutually coexistent atm and they produce problems for a) Elite players b) casual players
I'll post my thoughts on the actual content, once I go read pages 3-4, which I missed on my initial skimming. I would invite others to do the same so we can get back on-topic here without the flaming or personal attacks.
I would sincerely appreciate this as this is my idea as well. Unfortunately, people tend not to read prior to taking things out of the context, and sometimes people tend to dismiss the points altogether in which case there can't be much said or done.
I, however, really appreciate the tendency to read the topic since as you've noticed the things are rather flammable around here due to misunderstandings and people tending to derail with drama.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited August 2018
"Great Minds Discuss Ideas; Average Minds Discuss Events; Small Minds Discuss People"
A CW that plays one loadout an entire run is playing bad.
Ugh, you’re going to the territory of CW adaptability. This is some completely different aesthetics atm, but I will indulge you.
Uhmm you’re talking loadouts, I’m talking viable things i.e. fastest option to run. In idealistic party composition you’d want a MoF Rene and for general Epic Dungeon content you’d want MoF Rene with Feytouched weapon (+OP)
For skills you’d want to utilize Disintegrade and Icy Knife, especially on bosses, as fast as possible. That practically makes it the CW’s role in its most basic form.
When you say “AOE HYBRID DPS” it means absolutely nothing to me, I’d need to know your feats, belt/neck optimization, starting attributes, potions used, and equipment. You know what, best not to go in there as we might lose days and days solving and proving nothing in particular.
No, I do not think that CW’s having many roles in a party composition. As we state SS Wizard isn’t really viable as much as MoF CW simply because of the lack of debuffs and more so since any SS CW atm will play as Opp/Thaum
These are all completely viable and (BIS) loadouts for epic dungeons. Which one is best, only depends on your composition. If you are a good CW, you have all of these and play them regularly.
Ugh… Essentially, the CW is in such a bad position that he needs to adjust to be in tune to how others are dictating. I.E. The CW as it is now is more of a support role than anything else, and in that regards MoF Rene seems to be the best party option in general sense.
Other than that these are all semantics, man. And really, really, really you do not need more than three essential loadouts. Everything else is just messing around since there are no that many good, viable options to play with, unless you’re compensating for the lack of some attribute like recovery or crit. These two seem to be the case to which the feats are oriented about choices.
Also, there is more variety now than ever (thanks to loadouts) for gear/artifact/set/mount viability. Personally, I'm not rich enough to afford all options, but it they are there. Don't make me type all that out. If you know anything about the "compositions" you are talking about, you already know what I mean.
No, I really do not know. Do you want to say how each particular build will perform the same or are you expressing how each build is viable once you put in the Op/Dc combo in the great soup of “variety”?
The variety you speak about isn’t really variety, it’s option choices, and in that vein of option choices you only have one to two loadouts which essentially work the best.
Those are
Single target AoE
There’s nothing else there. The third option would be CC availability which serves as integer in its own right.
I mean, sure, you aren’t wrong if you want to state that CW has AMAZING adaptability, this is one of the leading traits of CWs in general, but when compared to other classes CW’s lacking greatly even though they usually have only one viable option to play with. I mean changing your rotation from ST to AOE doesn’t automatically make your build different. You’re still playing a build utilizing particular powers and particular effects in order to maximize damage, either yours or someone else’s, but it is still essentially a DPS/SUPPORT role, without really exceeding in any scenario.
I don’t know, I do not feel as strongly about that as you do but I’m open to more discussion about those points if you so choose to do. I’m simply trying to see your point but I’m not seeing it clearly enough, which is why I’d ask you to explain it a bit better. But this time use scenario for each of the builds you’ve pointed out and explain just how viable those would be in such scenario cases.
Like…make scenario and then tell me the rotation used, encounters and possibly feats *just the basics, I will understand if you say 15 Thaum or 15 Rene, I will know what you mean. I mean IF you want to do that, no worries if you do not. All in all thanks for trying I really appreciate that, truly.
However, if you take a closer look at this thread you are posting 0 examples
Oh, why would I post examples for “LFG” channel? I mean examples for what people ask or say in META? Do I really need to plague the topic with vitriolic player behavior, insults and whatnot? Two days ago I got invited to tong with one other CW telling me I’m useless even though it was his job to defend against the balls. The other day I got asked “why am I playing a SS CW, a dead class”. And, heck, even in this topic there was this person telling me that I’m playing a dead class, too. : ) Just read the topic, I think you’ve just stepped on his toes by stating that SS CW is viable.
I do not know if you understand it or have familiarity with just hot vitriolic people are in-game, but this IS a thing and perhaps you’re living secluded and sheltered from it? If you aren’t playing a specific class with specific items or specific behavior, you’re not playing at all. This is a thing.
Throughout this whole discussion you have basically only stated: 1.) I am having trouble finding groups for epic dungeons.
Ah, these are the ways you see my points and trying to diminish them by exponential margin, but it’s okay, I’ll play along.
Not once did I mention that. I am, however, stating that a MoF is more likely to find a group than a SS, as it’s fairly common knowledge that MoF outperforms SS in single target damage on bosses.
This wasn’t my point to any margin, but again why not having more options? I explained that I want more options in beating the content without having to take superclasses to take me by the hand. I find that discouraging and not really an accomplishment if my power is buffed 2 x 3 x 4 x by other people. Just how stupid is that? Please, tell me, don’t you think that this is STUPID to do? Get 100-200K more power and then say how you’re an elite player beating elite dungeons saying it’s skill? Lol it’s so silly.
5.) Epic dungeons require a specific composition, or I don't have a chance to complete it.
Yes, Epic Dungeons require tanks and healers, but a bit more tanks. If this doesn’t happen the dungeon it becomes almost unbeatable or barely manageable. Aside from that it will take more time to beat and in some cases it will be unbeatable. In some cases a tank dies – everyone die. This shouldn’t be the case in my opinion as it pampers only one class as the superclass.
- Spellplague Caverns - Tomb of the Nine Gods - Cradle of the Death God - Castle Ravenloft
Yeah, we can take some of these off the list now. Like, all of them.
Yes, there is no point to have Epic Dungeons being unbeatable or nearly unplayable without a tank. The elite mobs are hitting too hard and there is no power or any other form of VIABLE substitute to a TANK class. This is one of the minor points. Yes, introduction of CC in Elite Dungeons would provide a viable method of mitigating Elite Mobs damaging powers by using SKILLFULL (elite, veteran) gameplay where you wouldn’t be obliged to grab a tank and hide behind his back for each and every mob you encounter.
This basically creates LACK of variation in terms of beating a dungeon and it makes the dungeon being played in one and only way – either with or without a tank.
And this necessity to have a tank in the game created a superclass called OP who’s serving as three separate classes altogether
- Tank - Healer - Buffer
Points of fact :
Aura of Courage buffing up Feytouched weapon. Aura of courage doing exponential damage, broken in some cases, hitting more than 6 times in a moment/sec for some powers. Furthermore increases the power of the party (MOAR DAMUG) by an exponential margin. This creates the best, most useful class feature in entire game. There is no competition. There is no class feature which comes close to Aura of Courage. It is the SUPERMAN feature. Now, in combination to AURA GIFTS?
“Allies within 30' of you gain 5/10/15/20/25% of your Power. They must remain within 30' of you for at least 6 seconds to gain this buff”
With those being said, who WOULDN’T be taking the OP in their party? Who would be STUPID not to take OP in their party? That’s the whole agenda about class imbalance. And is it fair that one class has so much usefulness to the point of practically being mandatory in PT compositions for the smoothest run?
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
8.) The content in this game is very easy when people are playing decent.
Whether you’re aware of it or not, you’re talking about things as if I play in a non-decent way. You’re just beating around the bush, what is “the decent way” to play? I’d really like you to answer this without being so vague. I am talking specific here, you’re constantly bringing in vagueness. What would constitute “decent playing” for you? Going with the Op/Dc meta flow? Yeah, no, for me that’s not decent, that’s cancerous.
9.) End-game players currently have 0 challenging content to run. Players at other levels of "progress" have plenty of challenging content.
Elitist players can go play in the sand since they’re not satisfied with anything, apparently. Or find a better, more challenging game, without trying to ruin fun for everyone else who’s not playing the way they feel or consider to be “the one true way to play the game lest it’s not a game anymore”.
Not everyone want to play with micromanagement, this is a point of fact for anyone playing NOW. And you’re not really proving anything by demanding a more challenging content when there are pressing matters revolving the foundation upon the “easy end-game content” is built upon.
And furthermore, at least try to acknowledge the point of fact I provided regarding the introduction of the potential cards managing just how hard particular dungeon can be. Can we go back to that or are we going to simply consider what 5-6 people altogether think about how one game should look like? I don’t and I do not believe that everyone single person should start ACTing in order to play Neverwinter Online. That defeats the purpose of fun for people as FUN is highly personal, individual and subjective.
10.) Time spent by developers balancing around this "Epic Dungeon Party Composition Problematics" idea will only create new stigmas, a new meta, and therefore a different form of exclusivity. .
it is happening either way and it’s only going to ruin the game for many in the longer run as the current stigma is cancerous since it affected both players, content, cryptic and economy itself. It needs changes and I do not believe that you’re understanding this well enough. Perhaps you’re afraid of changes? If so, what is the point of going against me in the first? If you aren’t satisfied then express your opinion on being unsatisfied. Don’t come at me and say “things are bad as they are but let’s not change them” – how does that SOLVE anything?
You’re being highly unreasonable and not constructive. It’s some form of defeatist behavior which I can’t consider healthy nor may share the sentiment.
11.) The only way to truly eliminate that (number 1) is to make the content so easy that anyone, with any party, can complete it successfully. .
I disagree and I’ve already presented a more solid and manageable way which somehow you’ve skipped at least ten times by now.
Again – CARDS, talk that. Please. Circling around the pond with you becomes rather exhausting.
12.) Number 11 would be an extremely boring game, and Cryptic would lose tons of income (added that one just now, but duh?).
But you already took the stance that it’s TOO EASY and boring, so what you have to lose? What do you want to prove? That you’re an amazing player and that Cryptic should provide you the nigh unbeatable content that only you and some other people can beat? Yeah, well guess what – that’s what essentially ELITISM is. I do not need your quick definitions from web to talk about something that’s a whole philosophical tree in both general and political philosophy. And this is what creates great division that shouldn’t exist in gaming, more so since creating such content that’s unbeatable by the majority exclusively PUTS OUT the biggest portion of the community that’s willing to actually pay and use items to beat the content.
We are already at the point where people would rather SKIP content altogether since they see no value in pursuing it. You have people already pushed over the edge who can’t trust or believe in Cryptic’s decisions and who will never, ever, buy things only to have them nerfed in a month or two. People do not even want to pursue the new weapons from CR, not only because it’s pointless, but also because it’s tiresome to grind and collect, collect, collect to prove – what? That you’ve played with the best weapon in-game for 1 week before it becomes obsolete? Is that what you’d call elitism? I don’t, to me that sucks greatly and I won’t even lift a finger to pursue it. The whole concept and premise is extremely repelling.
And luckily this will give Cryptic some idea to see just how great the disparity among the people actually is. This is the best use for CR, it shows exactly just why this form of creating content is turning to be obsolete, overused and not really effective for people playing the game anymore.
I will attempt to answer this for you the best I can. The answer is human nature. No matter what the game looks like, players will always search for the best way to do things. They will share this with others, and if it works relatively well, people will follow.
People are self-interested (in various ways). You are complaining about specific players wanting to run content fast, who are therefore excluding you from their groups. Some players are self-interested in other ways, play with them. .
No, that’s another defeatism concept. It is again something which creates disparity among people and starts people to pursue all the bad examples of how things should be done. There is always a learning curve in this game and I can’t simply turn my back to people who are less familiar with the game. I do not find pleasure in such behavior nor consider it very humane to say the least.
You are essentially complaining about human nature. I will try to make this point clear without going too nerdy with you.
And you’re just basically complaining that I’m even writing on forum and just basically telling me to stop because it won’t change anything because any change will make things worse, but instead you want to further complain how the content is easy and should be made to make you feel good by providing superiorly hard content which in turn would also create bad outcome, but in that case scenario you don’t really care, no? Which is a sentiment I can’t follow nor appreciate since it’s highly defeatist, yet elitist in its nature. And as such it’s contradictory to itself since you are stating
- SAY NO TO META
but then you’re stating that the
- SUCCUMB TO META
Perhaps if you read your whole statements from start to finish you will realize this and see where your major faults are presented. You’re basically DISLIKING the idea I’m presenting without necessarily counter-attacking the idea itself. So, let’s talk about the idea because that’s your major problem with it obviously. What seems to be the problem?
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
You love listening to your self, dont you? And yes: This was my productive point for the discussion with you. Your welcome.
It is not at all effective and is downright on the very line of spamming the topic unnecessary without contributing anything of value nor offering any constructive feedback.
As I state this to everyone entering, if you're not able to offer anything constructive nor want to indulge yourself in reading the topic already, please abstain from commenting in a derailing manner. It's not productive, it is restrictive and doesn't serve any purpose but averting people from actually investing themselves in a discussion.
If you have something against me personally, please do state it via PM so that I may see what the problem actually is. If you consider me rude for asking for some civility, mannerism and appeal, please consider me the rudest person that there is.
Thank you.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
I have to, once again, apologize for not being here to discuss further. I have to postpone it. Due to many obligations in private life I will leave the topic and discussions for a more appropriate time. Please, do know that i respect and acknowledge your opinions on matters and appreciate all the time you've taken to talk about (buddy : ) ). I can see that we're coming from very similar positions, albeit with completely different goals or ways to solve it. I will continue discussion some other time. I hope that you do not mind my tone whenever it was during/in the heat of discussion. These things are normal and expected in my experience, so I hope that you do not mind as I do not mind whatever you've written thus far.
If anything, it was a pleasure talking to you whether you'd like to continue this some other time or not.
Unfortunately it might take me up to two weeks to return here and reply. I hope that someone else can stress out some more valid points in the meantime and that the topic can take a rather constructive turn.
Cheers and peace.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Comments
The reality:
1.) Power sharing is not that important. It might make a run slightly faster, but you can still manage a decent time through Castle Ravenloft without a power-sharing DC (even without ANY DCs). You also don't need to spam scrolls without Dragonball Z status Shepherd's Devotion.
2.) All classes are welcome in end-game content. You don't need x2 DCs to complete Castle Ravenloft. The dungeon is already super easy and trivial. There are tons of different compositions that can currently face-roll the "hardest" content in the game. There is not a single class that is left out of end-game party compositions. You also don't need to bring x2 of the same class to succeed. That means that there is a ton of variety when it comes to composing a group.
3.) Developers nerfing power-share is not going to fix your problem. As I said, I am happy with an adjustment to power-share. That would result in harder content. Problem is, that is when players are going to come back here saying "Omg the second boss is now impossible to complete. We need to have fully decked out characters to kill him fast enough! How am I supposed to survive now that I don't have 20K defense and 20K deflect all the time. OMG OMG!" The reality is, if you are a group of good players, that power-sharing nerf won't really affect you much. Your average run might take 4-7 minutes longer. People definitely will be more picky about the DPS they invite to a group. If you are sub-par DPS after nerfs to buffs/power-share, you can forget about getting into any decent groups.
Not to mention, whoever bought that Knox companion is going to be seriously upset. LOL
4.) I am adding this here to acknowledge some of the players concerns here. I have said this before but I want to make this clear. Yes, there are stigmas in Neverwinter. This creates exclusivity in forming groups and favors certain classes.
HOWEVER, the most important point here is that it is indeed only a stigma, you don't need a certain setup to complete Castle Ravenloft, or any of the other content in this game. That stigma exists because of the PLAYERS, not the DEVELOPERS. The game isn't so unbalanced (and difficult) that you need a specific "Epic Dungeon Party Composition" (as this thread is formed around) to complete ANY of the content in Neverwinter, end of story. Truth be told. The only way that you will be able to run Castle Ravenloft without any Healer, Tank, or significant buffing is for the developers to make the content easier (for example, 5DPS at 13K as someone suggested lol). If you are struggling with Castle Ravenloft, I recommend looking around online for some information about each and every class in Neverwinter. There is tons of it out there in various formats. Teach your friends, help them get better, and form your own groups. You will learn how trivial the content in this game already is.
This is the same type of problem that already happened with Call of Duty Black Ops 4 (still in Beta). People started to cry because the movement speed was too strong and nobody could aim their guns. People said things like "players are moving so fast. People turn the corner and kill me before I can land one bullet. People are jumping and I can't follow them with my aim." That is hilarious.
My response, get better and succeed. It is not impossible if people are doing it.
Now the developers (of Call of Duty) have nerfed movement speed. Most of the veteran players (many who advertise their game sometimes entirely for free) are already posting videos of other games and talking about how they might not feature Black Ops 4 in the future.
R.I.P. Blops 4...
Back to Neverwinter!
The hardest content in Neverwinter isn't hard for a casual player with a decent understanding of the game's mechanics. If you are struggling, you (or your group) are doing something(s) wrong. The hardest content of the game is entirely boring and trivial for the veteran "end-game" players and there is NOTHING (as far as content goes) for these heavily invested/supportive players of the game. You talk about content like their should be some for everyone. Well their is currently content for everyone, EXCEPT the players who have invested the time and resources to support the game for a long time!
Currently, as far as a challenge goes...
As a "new player", you have plenty of content to run. At "mid-game" you have plenty of content to run. At "end-game" you have ZERO content to run.
Just consider what that feels like for some people...
This is a casual game, so most dungeons are beatable by most groups and/or party compositions. Nowadays ppl think, that min IL, sup bar builds, gear and no understanding of any mechanics should be enough, to beat a dungeon.
Run EGWD with a PUG group. You can explain the mechanic with the red wolf, until your fingers are bleeding. Chances are, that one of your fellow teammates will attack it and kill it instantly or run around like a chicken, the red wolf hunting him and you (if you have the boss aggro) hunting the wolf. Ppl 'chilling' out for 10 minutes in a dungeon, that the others cleared in 7 minutes wondering, why the others hail them, to come along.
No, you do not have the liberty nor ability to play in public groups as anything other than a very specific class with some very specific set of encounters and with a very specific build. The builds are not viable and your statement is downright 100% wrong and will continue to be wrong until you realize that people will leave the Queue if they consider it a waste of time. And this "waste of time" is a major problem as everyone wants to get things the way they got used to, with papa and mama Op/Dc buff combo. This means that people are generally rather lazy and way too pampered by power-sharing which turned into their safe-zone. Until this is thrown out of the window we can't really have a valid discussion.
Irrelevant.
"The reality"... ok... of what? Your opinion?
Sigh...
a) Power sharing is extremely important as it allows you to finish the content by at least 50% faster. As such power sharing is extremely important and extremely viable. As such your statement is 100% wrong.
b) Since most people want to run as fast as possible power sharing is mandatory as it may increase damage exponentially up to 300.000 power altogether.
c) This becomes so mandatory and viable once you put the multiruns into the equation. And since some people exploited this before, now you get "WEEKLY LIMITS" on obtaining the items, resources and similar if you want to make a weapon. Action-Reaction.
d) You are arguing what's not mandatory to beat a dungeon, but I'm arguing what people prefer and, of course, people prefer to have the content done in fastest possible method. I, personally, do not stand behind such notions as I prefer to have more fun without being forced to play something I do not like. Bottom line - DO NOT LIKE. And this is my right. As such I'd prefer to see more class balance instead of being obliged to play something simply because it may trim away 10 minutes or else I have to deal with unreasonable children who can't possibly understand exactly what you are preaching right now - viable builds.
So, YES, I do understand what you preach, I also support it, but it is HIGHLY unlikely that people will accept that.
Please, do me a favor and start queuing as a StormSpell Wizard in Epic Dungeon content. I guarantee you that you will raise some eyebrows and have people asking questions. I can't support such sentiment that Castle Ravenloft is "Super Easy and Trivial". I also can't support the sentiment behind stating that all classes and welcome in end-game content.
As with everything, some classes are MORE welcomed in content, and that leaves some classes way behind.
The concept of CLASS BALANCE relies on making other less desirable classes and less desirable builds - MORE desirable as they could provide more to the overall party. So, I do not recall EVER stating that some class can't go to a specific location, I stated, well, what I already stated and I'm not about to repeat the whole thing again just because you've failed to realize it or read since you're arguing some very, very, very weird things imho. Things nobody talked about. The META doesn't want SpellStorm CWs. So it is about viable builds more so than viable classes. And then it comes down to viable classes and even at that point the CW is not a really viable class atm. So that's just like some very side-side-point that I will talk about, but probably in some another topic as CW deserves a whole new topic altogether to discuss about. So, your point 1 here was that Power Sharing is silly and nobody really needs it, yet here you say that nerfing it would make a havoc. Am I the only one to see this absolute contradictory statement of yours? If anything you just jumped into your own mouth with points 3 and 1.
Yes, it would make people play with more skill and less with being pampered by Papa OP and Mama DC. And in the past there were nerfs but people STILL do not want to listen to the devs, and it will end with a huge nerf to the Power Sharing.
As I stated I'm okay with Power Sharing as long as other classes can also bring something that amazing to the table. This is also one of the side-side-points, but I'm okay with that. Look at Paladin. not only does Aura of Courage increases the overall damage of Feytouched weapon ench, not only does ops build Power to give more power, not only can Op withstand extreme beating, not only can Op heal anyone in the vicinity without even lifting a finger, but is also mandatory in a party as the enemies hit like trucks. As such the Paladin itself is a SUPERCLASS. And this is wrong because the class is way too good. Bringing up Op/Dc combo completely changes the very dungeon run up to the point where it becomes the only real viable option. And when something becomes that viable, it becomes meta. And when you want to run with something that's not meta, you're outsider who doesn't know how to play the game, obviously. Hahahaha.
HAMSTER Why do we even discuss when you are going to crumble all your points by stating this? Why are you wasting BOTH of our times? I'm sorry but as much as I'd like to agree with you on this, I can't. As much as Developers did an amazing job where that job was applied and nice (like Ravenloft or new Hunts), there are series and series of bad choices going back. As i stated the ripple effects of the MOD 6 damages are still felt to this day and I'm here standing on the side of things and points where that MOD 6 >>>stigma<<< needs to disappear. This isn't a new problem, this is a very old problem which somehow, for some arbitrary reason, still persists regardless of how much the developers are trying to fix it. And there are evidences of it being fixed down the line whether or not it's acknowledged simply because it becomes logical, eventually.
As one of the major examples of how it was done in the past - Lostmauth' set. This. That. Thing. I hated it so much because it was too good not to take. And it didn't get fixed for an entire year. Yet, the thing is the sole reason why Storm Spell feat power got nerfed to oblivion. I quit the game back then. There was simply no point NOT to take it as it was too good to skip. It was so good to the point where everything else pales in comparison.
And this is the exact problematics with the Party Compositions. Some classes like Paladin and Cleric are TOO GOOD not to take. They are the metaphorical "Lostmauth set" which prevailed over the time. They are THAT good and this is a fact. I do not feel like we should substantiate this with numbers as it is common knowledge.
Not that long ago the Lightning Enchantment was another metaphorical "Lostmauth set". And it was more than obvious that it won't last. But it was mandatory to make tremendous damage. And? It got nerfed to the ground for some classes to the point of being NONUSABLE and a major waste of time. Key fact - waste of time.
You see, for me someone who is a veteran of NWO will understand and realize where its weak points are and for the sake of receiving a more fair and reasonable content will also pursue the forums in order to point on the unbalanced content, especially when noone else would dare to do it because it shakes the comfort zone.
And look at what happened recently when I reported that Shadow of Demise is bugged? A bunch of "elitist veteran TRs" started QQing. So much about "veteranism" from people who can't accept changes and face the truth. And the truth is that current meta is cancerous for many people who'd rather leave it the way it is than having to deal with devs breaking something, as it was the deal back in the years.
I, however, have faith in the new developing goals and I have the new content as an example to support it. I also think that people have been too harsh on Cryptic for the past actions, but Cryptic's the one to blame as well as more time passes and bugs are left alone only to be fixed after people already spent all their time and effort into obtaining/purchasing/making something. For that Cryptic takes all responsibility, and as far as the playerbase goes - they are the ones responsible for purchasing/buying into things which seem TOO good to be true.
I've yet to find a thing which didn't get nerfed according to my predictions.
So to sum up, not a single point I've made you managed to avert or dismay to any extent. If anything, you've only managed to jump into your own mouth and disregard everything you've just said.
And, yes I do acknowlefdge the point you've felt was so mandatory to mention that there are viable class builds and that when you build a party on your own who knows what they're doing and yadda yadda you can beat the dungeon. Yes, this is crystal clear and wasn't even a thing to begin talking about. It is common knowledge. But we're talking about META and what META demnads. Those are different things. Of course I care for the game as a WHOLE, and not only for 4-5 people in my party with whom I play all the time or with whom I'd play all the time if the game offered the possibility to beat the content I'm interested in with my friends playing with the classes they're interested in without any of us having to make sacrifices and play classes we do not like nor feel comfortable enough to play. We'd go to the extent of making our classes a bit more tankier and HP-intensive if the content required such a thing even if it would take us up to TWO hours to beat it, that's not the point, the point is that it is impossible to do so as there are only two classes which can really tank the Epic Dungeon content and those are GF and OP.
As you can see, it's CLASS-restrictive, ergo it's wrong and bad.
The reason why I'd like to have CC in the dungeons, of course, is because
a) It's made to be that way but it obviously has some bug of sorts which isn't fixed since MOD6.
b) It would provide an alternative way to build a character without relying purely on damage, but perhaps a bit more on a tanky/controller side.
That, my friend, is called CLASS balance and that would provide a rather viable choice. At the moment there is no VIABILITY to play as anything other than damage dealer i. e. DPS.
In the game you have two real gray classes - DPS and SUPPORT. That's it. And as long as some classes outperform in the given, they will be given the advantage in party runs/dungeon content.
And THAT ins't class balance, that's just "make the best possible build to have a chance to go into a dungeon, or else take HAMSTER from people and children in the chat" which creates a rather vitriolic environment and makes people to succumb to it and never, ever play public queue because you never know with whom you might end up with. Haha, man, enough with the "challenge". That's not a real argument!
If you are so concerned about the challenge then go Solo que into Hunts against Sisters of Fury and wear just undies with Donjon, 270% damage and 90% more HP tarroka's and try beating that.
You will find that
a) It is not mandatory for you to take on Sisters with Donjon, 270% more Damage and 90% HP with a full team, as you can enter alone.
b) It would be a trivial piece of cake for an expert and veteran player like you, no?
c) Your dodge mechanics will support you greatly, no?
Voila, you have successfully made end-game content extremely hard since the CR is too easy for you.
I mean, what is your whole point in the topic besides jumping into your own words, contradicting yourself and coming to say "it's beatable". Did you even understand what I wrote and what others stated or is it always going to the furthest shore with you?
Sharpedge can also join that hunt too, since he wants to make CR so hard that nobody can beat it but the select few. Talk about being self-conceited much and then stating how someone else is "entitled". There is already a huge abyss between the players who can beat the content and whose who never even went to a dungeon.
I'd like that you two actually TRY doing that hunt proposal since all you care is "hard content". I do not understand why is that such an important thing, I feel like this is just some side-side-argument, and what strikes me more buffled is that even though you understand just how easy the Op/Dc combo makes the game, you're still not really pursuing to explain why the combo is bad. Instead, you want to skip one problem and build on it altogether and want harder content where the necessity for the cancer such as Op/Dc combo is even greater. You two are completely unreasonable and childish.
Maybe you do not want to see Power-Sharing out of the picture since you've friends playing those classes, maybe you do not want because it's YOU playing those classes, maybe you have some other 100 reasons, but the point should be that the game in terms of class balance is not really about making harder content, but actually making everyone enjoy the content with the class of their preference.
Bottom line : PREFERENCE. And each preference should be good enough to beat content. In the best case scenario the difference between having one class in the team shouldn't be more than 5 minutes altogether. With DC the 30-40 minutes run suddenly turns into a 15-20 minutes run. That is a major problem.
And once you two guys realize that such Sister hunt with mentioned buffs is a hard content, then you return to the realization and consideration of the point I previously mentioned of having a mechanic like CARDS or similar which would increase or decrease the dungeon's challenge, so that we actually have a reasonable discussion instead of throwing mud at each other, then we may actually (again) start over from a more reasonable and valid point of a view and a discussion since this is not going anywhere and I am disappointed that we can't find some form of congeniality in finding the solution to the problem.
If you do not find any problem nor can provide the understanding and realization of the problem being present in the game, then please do not make it worse by trying to derail it further. I only ask a bit of civility.
Thank you.
The thing with EGWD is that it's not mandatory to bring OP or DC and it's beatable in a reasonable time-span.
Proposing harder dungeons in order to make a greater divide between the players is an elitist agenda and nothing more than that. I find such propositions to be rather shortsighted and not really addressing the real issue at hand. The content's made to include, at all times, a Op/Dc combo. The content's not made to be equally inviting to all classes as some classes have a mandatory status.
This is the discussion at hand. If you feel like you can provide something useful, without pointing to the obvious regarding my actions, please do so.
As for the helping the community goes, it is always a blade with two edges as you have the elitists who want to keep the "secrets" on the one side and who will openly attack anyone sharing them. And there are those who'd like to profit from knowing something that "nobody else does".
This is not a place for such people who want to gain an unfair advantage. Forum is a place where information should be shared and where the community will help each-other out in finding the perfect solution, but also noting when something's wrong or bad regardless of whether that might irritate someone in the longer run.
Furthermore, my question was referring to the discussion at hand - helping to find a way for everyone to enjoy dungeons and not just the select few.
I do not think that the developer intention is that only 1% of the playerbase gets to the Epic Dungeon and even less that that beat it. I find that to be a no-brainer and a serious insult to anyone playing this game for fun.
The content should be made more approachable without the necessity to include two superclasses within each party. As stated on earlier pages people are getting tired of it. People who were posting other people as arguments of managing certain dungeons have stated their concerns and lack of enjoyment when people ask them to play as a support class.
And as far as the content goes, the CR is a fine line between reason and madness since it is using, by all standards, the Op/Dc foundation for further runs which makes no sense as other classes should have the benefit of going to the dungeon (and beating it) the way they see fit, with or without Op/Dc combo.
Op/Dc combo is overused, boring, not serving any real purpose and it's producing CONTRA-EFFECT since even the "elitist gamers" are stating that the content is too easy and would be even easier if certain cripled classes would suddenly be able to use their skills in Epic Dungeon.
Apparently, some people are okay with some classes being crippled, yet others over-performing to good heavens. As such I do not find such people being able to understand the game balance properly.
For instance CC should be a good substitute for having to take Op in the party. It would introduce a nice, good dynamic at, perhaps, the expense of having to run the dungeon a bit slower, which is a perfect trade for being able to use CC properly in Dungeons. The dungeon would still be extremely harder without Op.
^ That is a good example of a balance.
@thefabricant Enough twiddling on the forums, go write a at least one guide. For once, be useful to the community.
2) The content is not designed around dc and op and the difference in time between a run with or without the combination is in the realm of 4-7 minutes. See comment above featuring a video, try watching it. If you look at the time at the end I believe you will see this:
3) CW can DpS CR, see above screenshot. For your convenience here is a link to another video of Strahd with CW as main DpS:
4) I have contributed plenty to this community and don't have any "secrets" that I keep to "gain an unfair advantage." In fact I believe if you go looking you will find a 20 odd page guide for CR authored by me, with the contributions of some friends of mine.
5) All I have said on this topic is 2 things. The first is that I believe that content is too easy and should be made harder. The second is that I do believe a tank and a healer should be mandatory. As the queue system lists 1 tank, 1 healer and 3 dps as the queue requirement, it seems the developers are inclined to agree with me.
6) Taking off gear in order to artificially make content harder does not make the game harder and it only serves to defeat the purpose of gear progression in the first place. We do not play to stagnate in the same place forever, we play to progress, to get better gear and in turn be faced with harder challenges.
7) I have done solo FBI, duo sp and duod large portions of tong, all with the "no scroll" mentality. I am pretty sure I can solo SP as well, but considering how much I detest that dungeon, I don't see myself trying to do it soon. This does not make the content challenging, it simply means that if you do the content in a way it was not intended to be done it is hard and the multiplayer aspect of an mmo is in my opinion integral to the experience. Group content should be challenging for a group, that is why it is group content and the hardest content should be challenging for the best players, even if that means it is so hard that I cannot do it.
8) Even pugs can finish CR and imo they do it better then premade groups in channels, from my experience (Yes, I have random queued CR).
9) At this current moment in time, my biggest issue with content is scrolls of mass life. I want them flat out removed from the game, I don't want to see them get abused any further to allow players to mess up as much as they like and still finish.
Best of latest experience was a run with two CW´s, from wich the 1. was a virgin and had only one loadout (Spellstorm) and the otherone rejected to run buff since he did 5 more dps than his brother.
Making a guide for a CW = / = Helping to create balance. Despite the fact that I’ve previously mentioned that I refer to the actual topic at hand regarding the Epic Dungeon propositions, you (and others) somehow try to get insulted and perpetuate mocking instead of actually offering something constructive. That’s the epitome of being childish and you’re not really serving any real purpose here.
Difference is obvious and Sharpedge, if anything, provided a rather shortsighted aptitude in this particular topic regarding the balance of the classes in general. His agenda, so far, offered no solution to the problematics to the party composition and aside from that formed a rather conservative and far-fetched view on how the Epic Dungeons should look like, to which I can’t agree nor share even slightly similar sentiment.
Perhaps finding the balance for everyone’s not his cup of tea and that is perfectly fine.
So, to sum up, his contributions in this topic are rather slim, almost nonexistent.
House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator
Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
That aside, what is your opinion on the power sharing and do you consider it to be "perfectly fine" or not?
And that aside, it doesn't really matter as I'm not even leading discussion with you as you've not really provided a decent enough argument to begin with since, as you've stated, you didn't mention the power sharing which appears to be the major problem in the given topic. Yes, the content (Epic Dungeons) is made to include Op/Dc combination in all times and right now you're contradicting yourself since you're main agenda, as far as I've seen on the forums revolves around "beating the content in the fastest way imaginable". In fact, you're so persistent with such notion that it became on of your forwarding traits.
So 4-7 minutes slowdown on people who know what they're doing relates to how many minutes slowdown to the average group who's not really into ACTing?
We're talking 10-20-30 minutes of a slowdown if there's no Op/Dc present, let alone something else.
Furthermore, you're not really providing any counter-argument with your videos since you're still running, in them, with the superclass OP.
Not that long ago you've made a fuss about that it's sort of irrelevant to take Vorpal Enchantment in contrast to the Feytouched because Feytouched simply stands superior, especially when OP is in the game.
So, which would you prefer
a) A recovery-based MoF with Unparalleled Feytouched and Paladin/Healadin with Aura of Courage + 2xAc/Dc combo.
b) StromSpell Wizard with Unparalleled Vorpal enchantment and Tactician GF with Hr/Tr combo.
If your obvious and logical choice falls on point A, congratulations, you've chosen the idealistic party and consider the point B almost completely useless.
Furthermore, the choice a) also provides far more even on lower IL, which isn't the case with point b). And this is the party composition problematics for dummies, basically.
THIS IS the problematics we're talking about here and this is something that we're trying to discuss about. Care to join? Completely and utterly irrelevant and not related to anything I've talked about, whatsoever. You haven't contributed anything in this topic other than asking for some of the most unreasonable things I've yet seen someone ask in the forums. You're only preceded by that guy who wanted Tax effects introduced. Asking for the harder content would be perfectly fine if the Power Sharing is actually addressed. Since it's not addressed, we're having the Epic Dungeon content being structured upon the foundation of Op/Dc combo since the two classes are highly META effective and desirable more so than any other class in the game. This is a fact you can't argue about, I'm afraid. Recently I've had that "developers agree with me" agenda being told in my face by that one TR guy who stated that Shadow of Demise's not bugged, despite that it was. I'd be extremely careful when taking Devs names in vain. What developers think or may not think is their agenda and their agenda only. Nobody should influence developers in such one-sided ways and to insinuate unreasonable things. And this also wouldn't be the only time you were wrong or not in-tune with what developers wanted, so I believe that you should lower your ball a bit, especially when asking such unreasonable things where you're basically proving only one thing - you do not care for the entirety of the player-base. As such you can't really contribute anything reasonable in this topic regarding the party composition problematic because you've already stated that you're perfectly fine with how things are atm. The game's philosophy of progression failed many times before and it's not really a stagnant and purposeful plan. not only did power sharing received a nerf, but also did the powers in general received a nerf due to the way people get buffed over the time, becoming virtually unbeatable.
So, no, I do not think nor believe that people who do not play elitistically nor chase all R14s should be punished for not being able to beat the content that you so chose to propose as a relevant solution to...your desire to play harder content?
Okay, that's just you and your desire. What about the rest of the people who play the game? Should they all start calculating and tracing each little percent of damage, heal, life steal or whatever in order to have "fun" playing with their friends and family according to your merits? Perhaps you want too much by asking for harder content, especially when there are everlasting problems not being fixed since MOD6, which are only now slowly being averted for the better.
and, yeah, if you do want to have fun just take of some equipments and artificially make it more FUN for yourself. YOu have all the power and control to equip and unequip items without demanding unreasonable things where you do not care for how everyone else play since you already have your premade choice of people with whom you play on a daily basis.
This isn't only about premade choices, this isn't only about having to find a perfect party, it's about the general meta and lack of the class balance META-wise.
If that isn't something you feel strongly about either way then you're really at the wrong place and I mean this respectfully.
If this is your biggest concern about the game then I leave you to it and wish you all the luck solving that "issue" you so chose to remove and by doing that completely destroy people's chances to avert their sudden mistakes, a momentary lag or even Cryptic's chances to earn some extra dollar, which also supports ZEN which you yourself might be purchasing via exchange, and such intrinsically destroy a wide array of an exchange network for people who are trying to abide by Cryptic's rules even though it's a costly (and reasonably so) solution for many who'd prefer not to waste any scrolls.
Furthermore, why do you think that you have the right to ask for Scroll's removal altogether? Again, this is a prime example of self-conceit, more so given how a few moments ago you dare to preach about how MMO mechanics work, and now you want the scroll of revival, which is one of the most prominent items in any MMO I've played, completely removed because you feel it's easy with it? Hah.
Sharp, you're losing your edge.
Yes, I'm sure that the biggest issue that Neverwinter has right revolves around people using scrolls of revival. That hits the spot. Your help is greatly appreciated regarding that.
Get real.
That is the best and most informative post in the topic.
My points I have recently stated are presented on the post you've hit "LOL" at.
To sum it up they are all tracing problems in reverse, i.e. what would need to be fixed, which is a lot of work.
Point 1 : Power Sharing superclasses (Op/Dc) being the foundation upon which everything else is built upon, which is a no-go. This has been the case since MOD6, but more so once MSP/FBI etc got introduced. Now, each dungeon succumbs to this form which is practically cancerous and leaves no room for different party compositions.
Solution : Make content akin to the Hunts, and keep the difficulty for those who seek such things in the form of Cards(or other trinkets), again akin to the Hunts recently portrayed in Barovia.
Point 2 : Removing power sharing leaves behind the Content being hard i.e Elite mobs hitting people and killing them with ease unless there's a tank present. This shouldn't be the case and a form of control should be introduced, since at least 96% of the rest of the game has it, so that people have a viable way to postpone the attacks of mobs.
Point 3 : A hypothetical optimistic and optimal scenario where classes are reworked in order that each build becomes viable with time disparity around 5 minutes, but not less. This removes the possibility for just one and only classes to be viable for Dungeon content. I.E. TRs could play as a Saboteur instead of Executioner. GWFs could play as Iron Vanguard instead of Swordmaster instead of being completely and utterly useless.
As I mentioned before, CW has many problems and is not a balanced class, but CW as monkey stated too has at least 6 different viable builds (out of which only one or maybe two is for Epic Dungeon content). As such the CW is one of the most balanced, if not the most balanced out class in the game, but other classes still need some form of diversity. At the moment, there's no such a thing. There's always and at all times just one most viable build at all times and that's the ultimate problem, plaguing NWO since it's inception so point three is more of a stretch goal and a dream than an actual solvable focus. The focus which we've seen already being fixed at least three times in the past is power sharing, and it is still something that's way too good in terms of the content itself.
And this invites people like monkey or sharp to state how content is too easy, asking for harder content, without finding the root of the problem itself which revolves around power sharing and tanking in general.
On another hand it also invites people like pterias or that one youtuber who played as a CW to state how they're tired completely of always having to play as a support class, which makes them to kind of forget playing the dungeons altogether.
So major point is - if it is not fun, it doesn't really work. And Epic Dungeon party compositions tend to create more vitriol than anything else! People simply do not have enough patience for others who need to learn or manage something or simply play in the way they prefer to play.
So I hope that this answers some of your questions to some extent.
I will also just mention this - yes, 5 CWs in a dungeon used to be viable, but so did 2 CWs for the last boss in old CN. What people fail or do not want to acknowledge is that nowadays you have Op/Dc combo instead of 2 x CW with Arcane singularity.
You basically have the same thing all over again with one class being crippled many times unfairly, whilst there are other superclasses around who are still extremely viable despite numerous nerfs they've received.
On a side note, I do not see how CW's controlling things without damaging them would be a dangerous option
So another major point is - Making people to play as OP and DC doesn't really work. It practically makes it into a JOB as rarely do people really enjoy playing as support classes, of course all the glory to those who like to be MVPs but it shouldn't be MANDATORY as in the only viable thing to play as in the fastest way imaginable.
Cheers.
There you go, queue requirements. It certainly doesn't say, "5 dps" does it? Maybe actually click on the link I provided, where I talk about my thoughts on power sharing and buffs in general. As I said, I don't see any reason to clutter this thread, you are doing a fine job of that yourself.
As far as running with an OP goes, you do realize that for the, "1 healer, 1 tank, 3 dps" group composition, you actually require taking a healer right? Since you cannot take a dc (your first requirement) that leaves you with a devo OP, right? And no, an SW is not a healer, you cannot queue as a healer and you cannot heal if there isn't an enemy to damage, therefor, not a healer.
For me personally, all that matters is the number of unique classes. In that respect, the current meta is better then mod 5, I would rather have only 1 class repetition (dc) then 5 (cw), although ideally the dc would not be repeated either (CR is almost at the point where dc is not repeated I feel, it just takes a little pushing). The current meta is much healthier then mod 5, every class is represented, every dps can dps, but it clearly has its own issues, which I outline in the thread I link.
Furthermore, CR is very blatantly designed with mechanics that discourage you from bringing dcs as a support. To start off with, the bat mechanic cannot be mitigated by anything a dc does at all, but it can be mitigated by OP or GF. Furthermore, the sunsword ap buff essentially nullifies 1 of the primary reasons for taking a DO, since it makes it very easy for a dc to use both dailies.
This is why I posted the CW runs, here you are, viable class, despite your best efforts to show otherwise. The class is not "crippled unfairly" it is still very much a capable class.
As far as your comments on scrolls I assure you, I play from South Africa on a connection slower then you can imagine and I still feel they should be removed. This mentality of "scroll to win" is the most damaging thing in this community right now, or are you completely blind and miss people asking for "exp+scrolls" in channels or people advertising as "dc with scrolls." People won't get better if they are able to press an "I win" button and just continue running. I will be blunt, if I invite someone to a run and they make any insistence that the players in the group use scrolls, I will kick them, as simple as that. I have no issues with a team wiping because they messed up then trying again, I have every single issue with a team just spamming the scroll button because they cannot learn to play and they do do that.
Ravenloft hunts are designed for players like you, how about you run them and stop complaining about content designed for someone else. You are like people who complain that they deserve free tertiary education, or people that expect to be payed for doing nothing. No, you don't, you are not entitled to anything, if you want it, work for it like everyone else. Some people enjoy easy content they can do at the end of the day with family, that is fine, they can do hunts. Other people enjoy content they have to min max every percentage of their character for in order to succeed, let those players have fun as well.
Endgamers by definition define the meta, because you get to that state by optimization. The challenge for the
elite gamer' as you call them is theorycrafting, and optimizing. It becomes a puzzle to figure out what works best together. That is the way it has always worked in video games. That curiosity allows you to run with or without a 'meta (read optimized)' build and eventually run content. So before we start throwing insults around here like you did at sharpedge, be very careful on your own understanding of both sides.
Lets not turn this into a flame war. I'm not attacking you in this post, but lets be careful here, your post comes off a way I don't think you intended it to. Generally people who start throwing specific names or groups around causes other to explain their viewpoint as well, that's how debates work. IIRC you specifically called out elitists, and sharpedge, hence they responded to what was perceived as a direct attack.
I'll post my thoughts on the actual content, once I go read pages 3-4, which I missed on my initial skimming. I would invite others to do the same so we can get back on-topic here without the flaming or personal attacks.
When I am with normal parties (not slacking) I personally play all of these loadouts, switching mid-run when it is a good idea:
MoF Renegade AOE DPS hybrid (rarely)
MoF Renegade ST DPS hybrid= single target (again rarely)
MoF Renegade full debuff spec for stacking smolders (rarely) <--- I don't have different ST/AOE variants because the DPS sucks.
MoF Opp ST Full DPS (often)
SS Opp AOE Full DPS (often)
SS Opp ST Full DPS (often in 10 man raids)
These are all completely viable and (BIS) loadouts for epic dungeons. Which one is best, only depends on your composition. If you are a good CW, you have all of these and play them regularly.
During the double RP events, I can't tell you how many runs I did as SS. Completely successful and not hindering my group or forced to play MoF...
Please actually watch this video, it is only 2 minutes and some change. Then, explain to me why a SS is not viable for epic dungeon content.
Therefore, sorry...but
<blockquote class="UserQuote">
So all in All you have just one, single, solitary option to choose from, unless another CW is a substitute for a buffer in which case one would play as an Opp/Thaum build and another would play as a Rene build.
Again sorry buddy, but that is simply wrong.
Also, there is more variety now than ever (thanks to loadouts) for gear/artifact/set/mount viability. Personally, I'm not rich enough to afford all options, but it they are there. Don't make me type all that out. If you know anything about the "compositions" you are talking about, you already know what I mean.
No. I am sharing my "opinion" in some areas, yes. However, if you take a closer look at this thread you are posting 0 examples, leaving your side of this discussion only to the realm of "opinion" that is based on your experience with the stigmas of Neverwinter. Some people here are posting concrete examples that the content is completely doable with different compositions, and builds. You are failing to acknowledge that. I'm not trying to flame you or troll you, this has nothing to do with you. I respect your opinion, but it is just that, an opinion.
Throughout this whole discussion you have basically only stated:
1.) I am having trouble finding groups for epic dungeons.
2.) OPs and DCs are not having trouble finding groups for epic dungeons.
3.) I am pressured to play a certain way in epic dungeons.
4.) I want more options when I run epic dungeons.
5.) Epic dungeons require a specific composition, or I don't have a chance to complete it.
6.) You also started this discussion with; First of all, if you haven't even been playing these, how are you commenting about their difficulty? You are basically asking for the content in this game to get easier, and before you deny that again, you literally said... The content in this game (any game) should offer a challenge to all players, end of story.
You are asking for nerfs and buffs but you aren't realizing something. After that happens, there will be a new meta, new stigmas, new "ideal" compositions, and new exclusion/inclusion. That is just human nature running its course. When has this game (or any MMO) not had some "meta play" (whether or not it is actually effective). No. I am not crumbling my points. My points were clear. I will make them more clear so you can understand easier.
1.) The stigmas exist, the meta exists, the exclusivity exists.
2.) Everything in number 1 comes from players perception, not reality.
3.) You don't need a certain composition to complete the hardest content in Neverwinter in a decent time.
4.) You don't need to exclude any classes.
5.) You don't need to bring x2 of any class to run the content in a decent time.
6.) These "Super-classes" you speak of are not just OPs and DCs. All classes are seriously AMAZING at the moment.
7.) Players are not forced into playing a certain way, there is a ton of viable options for most classes (sorry GWFs)
8.) The content in this game is very easy when people are playing decent.
9.) End-game players currently have 0 challenging content to run. Players at other levels of "progress" have plenty of challenging content.
10.) Time spent by developers balancing around this "Epic Dungeon Party Composition Problematics" idea will only create new stigmas, a new meta, and therefore a different form of exclusivity.
11.) The only way to truly eliminate that (number 1) is to make the content so easy that anyone, with any party, can complete it successfully.
12.) Number 11 would be an extremely boring game, and Cryptic would lose tons of income (added that one just now, but duh?).
13.) I could go on and on but I just realized that I am still only quoting the 1st post out of 20
Time to move on...
I will attempt to answer this for you the best I can. The answer is human nature. No matter what the game looks like, players will always search for the best way to do things. They will share this with others, and if it works relatively well, people will follow.
People are self-interested (in various ways). You are complaining about specific players wanting to run content fast, who are therefore excluding you from their groups. Some players are self-interested in other ways, play with them.
You are essentially complaining about human nature. I will try to make this point clear without going too nerdy with you.
Consider that a smart person once said "[f]reedom in a commons brings ruin to all" (Hardin). Here, Hardin is actually focusing on resources and overpopulation but the core idea is relevant here. Humans are naturally self-interested (building meta) and this causes sociological problems (stigmas, exclusion) in the commons (Neverwinter). You simply cannot change that without taking away players freedom. In the context of this discussion, that means making all builds/compositions/play-styles exactly equal in terms of viability. That would remove an entire aspect that makes Neverwinter great (exploring what works and what doesn't). On top of that, you would need to make Neverwinter so easy that anyone could complete anything. Which would entirely remove any challenge and promote a decline of players' motivation for progress towards a goal (like beating CR for the first time).
Are you joking? First of all...
But way more important than that....
I can't speak for myself, I admittedly haven't done much for the Neverwinter community. I am trying to make entertaining, and slightly informative, videos on YouTube. That is it. Say what you want about me. I am not trying to "rule" or "run" Neverwinter though.
However, that is NOTHING compared to the hours Sharpedge has spent, outside of the game, helping players in Neverwinter. It blows my mind that you can't recognize how much effort this person has put towards helping other players, and he has asked absolutely nothing in return. He does all of this in his free time. He shares the benefits of his work with everyone. THAT IS THE COMPLETE OPPOSITE OF AN ELITE.
You didn't even have a chance to begin creating a valid argument that Sharpedge is unhelpful, that didn't, and won't, make any sense ever. You had all the facts against you before you even started typing that. I could sit here and list all the google docs, videos, spreadsheets, bugs, and free advice that Sharpedge has given to us (including you dude). There is no need for me to do that though. I guarantee that the community is on his side all the way.
I don't even know Sharpedge that well. We have played together a total of (1) times. I am not sitting here backing him because we share some friendship. I am backing him because the facts speak for themselves. He has been such a great person to the rest of this community, and I am sure that 99% of the people reading this (and not commenting) agree with me.
@thefabricant Forget about that comment. You have put in the work, and people have noticed. I personally can tell you that even a huge portion of the Xbox community 100% has your back. There are very few people who would (or even could) do what you have done for the rest of the Neverwinter community.
@c1k4ml3kc3 As I said, I can't speak for myself, but you might as well have tried to call Kaelac useless to the community. That comment makes zero sense. I'm not going to flame you for it, but that is absurd and ungrateful of you. He has undeniably helped you too, whether it is by improving your character, or by enlightening people around you, who may have supported you. I know, you seem full of knowledge. I'm sorry "buddy", but this simply isn't a constructive discussion anymore. You are expressing your opinion that the content is unplayable and exclusive. People have proved you wrong. You are failing to accept that.
As far as the game goes, adapt or move on. Nobody is keeping you here. If people can do something (and show you they can), you can too. You aren't fundamentally inferior. Work towards making yourself better, so that you can get invited to groups. You kind of ruined your acceptance from a huge portion of the community with that comment about Sharp though, just saying... You should avoid saying toxic things to players who are only trying to have fun and play a video game. I hope you consider that advice.
Good luck!
So to sum it up, requirements are just a general notion that should serve as a form of a heading giving you the general idea of what you'd need to beat the content. But that's not the main problem, that's just barely scratching the surface. The point is that you've ran with OP despite arguing that it's not mandatory. Furthermore, you did not provide an answer to my question of choosing point A or B. Those aren't rhetorical so that we can cut the chase of running around avoiding the point-in-point. Disagree. The current meta is no different than MOD5, if anything even worse than MOD 5 since it has at least three major issues instead of just class exclusivity. The class exclusivity is just a cherry on top.
I think that this is an overused and over-exemplified use of an argument. As far as MOD5 goes I sincerely can't remember having 5 CWs running any content. At most it would be 2 and in very rare cases when the guild was filled beyond measurement it would be 3, but this was due to damage being done more than their CC attributes. And, yes, there was still an outcry for CC not only by CWs, but also everyone else because the CC was out of the picture due to overuses of Arcane Singularity.
In that case you do acknowledge that there are issues and that issues are formed and present, however your opinions are your own and I do not share the sentiment since I've seen people demanding 2xDC. The "ideal state" is just a fantasy, I'm afraid, as the game is something else. If you've taken the time to read what I've posted and actually observe, you'd realize very easily that I talk about crippled class in such a sense that CW was crippled unfairly due to the introduction of Lostmauth's set, notably crippled back in MOD6, prior to having CC crippled which forced CWs to fight in a rather melee range at the time, thus making them rather exposed to dangers.
Other than that the crippled status still exists due to the way Elite Mobs are introduced with permanent damage reduction and possible CC reduction as well, which makes many of CWs powers useless unless they are purely DPS oriented and infused with recovery options. It practically makes CC useless in Epic Dungeons and ONLY epic dungeons. This isn't only CW-excluded, it affects all classes, however the CW is the one class having a lot of CC oriented spells which are practically never used.
- Imprisonment in Elite Dungeon? I can see some potential use for that spell, strategy-wise. But it is useless.
- Icy Terrain freezing enemies for more than a fraction of a second? Almost non-existential, but available in lower tier Epic Dungeons on some enemies. Frozen enemies take double damage from Chilling Presence feat, which CWs normally use as much as any TR uses Lashing Blade or any GWF using Sure Strike. It is basically an essential skill being used, but it is crippled in Epic Dungeons, thus making a CW less of a DPS because it exponentially diminishes actual damage done by some 6%. That's basically 2400 power. This made me laugh. Okay, i do see your point, but you're stepping on my toes with a typical "1st world problem" agenda. Scrolls are the least of my concerns atm and if people want to use them, let them use the scrolls. I can't stop people from inviting 2 x DCs either, can I?
And PvP in this game is, again, some of the worst PvP I've seen since forever. I do not want to say the same about the Epic Dungeons, but it's coming close to that and I'm not the only one sharing the similar or even same view. There are more people who think likewise and this is why I asked for a poll of sorts. And that inevitably returns me to the point one of the topic and makes me to go full circle where I can simply state that your contribution to this particular topic is almost nonexistent. You shouldn't take that as an insult to your reputation, but more about the fact that you're not really bringing anything new to the table. And neither is monkey. If anything you guys are simply saying "what can be done, just go with the flow and watch your damn business". This isn't the outcome I'm looking for and this is the main reason why I'm writing on the forum in the first place.
On another point the Ravenloft hunts are greatly praised by everyone, which I can't say about CR. If anything the only people who "cry" the most on the forums are exactly "veteran players" who can't get strong enough Epic Dungeons. And it is exactly those people who've made everyone else feel the nerf hammer on every single power. Thankfully, the Developers know this (to my great pleasure) and they realize that lower tiered players shouldn't feel as obliged to take the toil on their encounters/powers as much as the most high tier players do.
And this leaves us with the problem of high tier players being bored. Perhaps it isn't that the game doesn't offer strong content, but perhaps it is YOU people who can't be satisfied and can't enjoy the little things in various ways. You skip the dungeons so fast that you can't take your time to enjoy, help someone weaker in the process, talk to various people, get into zone runs/hunts etc and try actually enjoying your time for simply enjoying the time itself with people, without thinking who's the biggest number, who's going to speedrun the fastest nor who's going to have the best paingiver chart. I feel like all of that shouldn't be the top priority to ANY veteran player, but instead fellowship and friends who play in a specific way.
For me running dungeons and only dungeons for an entire day is unhealthy and I do not see the point to do so as there are other and better ways to enjoy the game and having fun with other people around with a big Mr. Congenial grin. That's just my 2 cents on that. And with that we can end the discussion.
I will, however, give you a chance to actually provide some valid arguments in regards to the topic at hand if you so chose. I do not wish to pursue external links to other topics since there are already many people here who've led some valid points and discussions. If you want to join and express your opinion in a civilized and constructive manner (and no, I do not mean talking about how the only NWO problem are Scrolls, get real), regarding the possible solution to the Power Sharing, you're more than welcome. There's no point to have any sort of malicious intent going on from each side.
Thank you.
The only question is whether it will be two classes taking the toil, or everyone else having their powers nerfed by at least 20%.
We've had both of the given scenarios multiple times not, as pterias also mentioned on the first page.
The content itself shouldn't be made to pamper Tank/Healer combo as a must unless we're talking 10men dungeons. I believe and consider that it's nigh time for healthier environment which takes lessons from the very and extremely amazing Barovian hunts.
The point is that people who are not playing with extremely hi-end points at the end shouldn't feel missing out on the content simply because they can't get around to play it, as the game already is highly time consuming for the general audience. To my knowledge this game is played by majorly older populace, we're talking around 30-35 years of age. These are all adult people, probably with their families and obligations, and they can't really consider spending months and months only in order to get to play that one dungeon. Most people I know do not have that kind of time and possibility, but they still play as they like, enjoy and even purchase ZEN in the game.
The dungeons are unnecessary hard and have flaws in terms of beating the content. It pampers the Tank/Healer combo, which overlasted its usefulness in terms of how it's utilized. Now you can get Paladin to play both roles, and people tend to get the Ac/Dc combo in order to get through the dungeon faster. There's a cancerous SUPPORT META which makes the entire game follow a strict pattern in which nobody's able to do anything unless their support friend isn't online.
So, to sum it up, I stated that uses of Cards akin to Barovian hunts would solve this issue in a quick and efficient manner. Why?
Simply because you'd get people who simply want to experience the content (i.e see dungeon and all the work developers put into creating content) done without much fuss, however also without taking unnecessary server resources to create both normal and epic versions of the same dungeon. No. It would still be governed by same instances, but would have the option to choose the difficulty. This makes people who want to play a bit more casually to do so, and would also allow those who want to play elitistically to do so as well.
It is a win-win-win situation in which casual players get to play the content and do not feel penalized as much, elite players would get their fair share and maybe something extra for beating harder content and the cryptic could find a way to somehow turn that into a profitable outcome if needs be. Does't have to be done with all dungeons, but only those that are part of the MAIN QUEST, and Barovian CR is one of that since the weapon is obtained after defeating Strahd. This leaves so many people left out and it will ultimately be a major letdown to everyone who pursued chasing after such weapon in the first place. Furthermore, the weapon's best attributes only work in Barovia. So that's a lose-lose-lose situation for everyone. The endgamers are practically finding the points of least resistance for maximum optimization, which can turn out to be also an exploity way of playing the game. By utilizing and sharing such information, it can also lead to various nerfs and we've had that happening before. Rarely do I see people stepping up bravely on forums to say that something's broken, and even when they do so are heavily ridiculed by others. Happens to everyone who's trying to make the game a bit better in the longer run.
Sharpedge's being told what he deserved to be told and his actions in this particular topic are blatantly wrong as he's not seeing things clearly enough. I do not allow myself to be swayed by someone's preceding reputation nor I appreciate when someone's acting in such a manner where the lack of civility and understanding is represented. As such I only value and look forward to what he can bring to this topic in particular and observe what his points are in terms of the ongoing discussion. So far his points are rather weak and go in absolute contrast to everything we've discussed here and made around, to the point where it could easily be considered trolling in a subtle way. Of course, I do not believe that his intentions may be like that, but I also do not believe that he needs a spokesman regardless of how you may or may not feel about it. Which in turns only comes close to your post being highly irrelevant and derailing since you're bringing up that. Out of courtesy I will answer you as I do believe that everyone who posts something deserves an answer. His words are weighted by what he preaches, not by his reputation. There was no intention to insult anyone and if I insulted Sharpedge at any point I'd really like that you show me where is that written.
Ah... Again, Sharpedge took a stance which is way different from the stances of people who're in this particular topic, to the point where I can easily state that his stance is rather childish as it doesn't take into the consideration the disparity between the people. Why I say that? Well... I also stressed out that I do not consider someone "elite player" or "veteran player" by what they do in end-game content, but only people who help completely reduce the bugs and with a general and congenial consideration for everyone playing. Sharpedge doesn't strike me as someone who's taking care of people who aren't playing "elitistically", and this is fueled (and argument imho) by his request that Epic Dungeons should be so hard that almost nobody can beat them. This sort of a sentiment isn't substantiated by any margin, whatsoever, nor is constructive and in regards to this topic is highly dismissive and unimportant, which in contrast puts me in a difficult position since people tend to cater to someone's preceding reputation rather than their arguments which in its own right is a logical fallacy and can't be regarded as anything constructive or valuable. Such sentiments are way overboard, more so since they do not offer any valuable or reasonable explanation other than personal feelings of how things should be done. This puts it in a rather dismissive position since everyone "feels" a certain way about one thing or another, and generally speaking the game as a whole shouldn't be compelled to the opinions of elitist players i.e. people who generally simply care to have only new and more advanced content where they can prove their "gaming superiority" or whatever other arbitrary reason you may find behind it. It's a very tiny portion of the game.
What strikes me, personally, is that someone would consider themselves elitist players whilst being pampered by mama DC and papa OP. Having that sort of power at your disposal without you acknowledging just how good it is to me it means that you're not really an elite player and not really a veteran. It is easy and we have people stating here that content is easy and, yes, it becomes easy once you've got OP to hide behind his back, of course.
So the problem befall two major points
CONTENT = SUPERCLASS
(everyone else)
These two things are mutually coexistent atm and they produce problems for
a) Elite players
b) casual players
I would sincerely appreciate this as this is my idea as well. Unfortunately, people tend not to read prior to taking things out of the context, and sometimes people tend to dismiss the points altogether in which case there can't be much said or done.
I, however, really appreciate the tendency to read the topic since as you've noticed the things are rather flammable around here due to misunderstandings and people tending to derail with drama.
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/11/18/great-minds/
Uhmm you’re talking loadouts, I’m talking viable things i.e. fastest option to run. In idealistic party composition you’d want a MoF Rene and for general Epic Dungeon content you’d want MoF Rene with Feytouched weapon (+OP)
For skills you’d want to utilize Disintegrade and Icy Knife, especially on bosses, as fast as possible. That practically makes it the CW’s role in its most basic form.
When you say “AOE HYBRID DPS” it means absolutely nothing to me, I’d need to know your feats, belt/neck optimization, starting attributes, potions used, and equipment. You know what, best not to go in there as we might lose days and days solving and proving nothing in particular.
No, I do not think that CW’s having many roles in a party composition. As we state SS Wizard isn’t really viable as much as MoF CW simply because of the lack of debuffs and more so since any SS CW atm will play as Opp/Thaum Ugh…
Essentially, the CW is in such a bad position that he needs to adjust to be in tune to how others are dictating. I.E. The CW as it is now is more of a support role than anything else, and in that regards MoF Rene seems to be the best party option in general sense.
Other than that these are all semantics, man. And really, really, really you do not need more than three essential loadouts. Everything else is just messing around since there are no that many good, viable options to play with, unless you’re compensating for the lack of some attribute like recovery or crit. These two seem to be the case to which the feats are oriented about choices.
No, I really do not know. Do you want to say how each particular build will perform the same or are you expressing how each build is viable once you put in the Op/Dc combo in the great soup of “variety”?
The variety you speak about isn’t really variety, it’s option choices, and in that vein of option choices you only have one to two loadouts which essentially work the best.
Those are
Single target
AoE
There’s nothing else there. The third option would be CC availability which serves as integer in its own right.
I mean, sure, you aren’t wrong if you want to state that CW has AMAZING adaptability, this is one of the leading traits of CWs in general, but when compared to other classes CW’s lacking greatly even though they usually have only one viable option to play with. I mean changing your rotation from ST to AOE doesn’t automatically make your build different. You’re still playing a build utilizing particular powers and particular effects in order to maximize damage, either yours or someone else’s, but it is still essentially a DPS/SUPPORT role, without really exceeding in any scenario.
I don’t know, I do not feel as strongly about that as you do but I’m open to more discussion about those points if you so choose to do. I’m simply trying to see your point but I’m not seeing it clearly enough, which is why I’d ask you to explain it a bit better. But this time use scenario for each of the builds you’ve pointed out and explain just how viable those would be in such scenario cases.
Like…make scenario and then tell me the rotation used, encounters and possibly feats *just the basics, I will understand if you say 15 Thaum or 15 Rene, I will know what you mean. I mean IF you want to do that, no worries if you do not. All in all thanks for trying I really appreciate that, truly.
Oh, why would I post examples for “LFG” channel? I mean examples for what people ask or say in META? Do I really need to plague the topic with vitriolic player behavior, insults and whatnot? Two days ago I got invited to tong with one other CW telling me I’m useless even though it was his job to defend against the balls.
The other day I got asked “why am I playing a SS CW, a dead class”. And, heck, even in this topic there was this person telling me that I’m playing a dead class, too. : ) Just read the topic, I think you’ve just stepped on his toes by stating that SS CW is viable.
I do not know if you understand it or have familiarity with just hot vitriolic people are in-game, but this IS a thing and perhaps you’re living secluded and sheltered from it? If you aren’t playing a specific class with specific items or specific behavior, you’re not playing at all. This is a thing. Ah, these are the ways you see my points and trying to diminish them by exponential margin, but it’s okay, I’ll play along.
Not once did I mention that. I am, however, stating that a MoF is more likely to find a group than a SS, as it’s fairly common knowledge that MoF outperforms SS in single target damage on bosses. Yes, superclasses tend not to have troubles finding people to play with as the LFG is filled with people asking for support classes in at least 90%. Absolutely and completely true. This wasn’t my point to any margin, but again why not having more options? I explained that I want more options in beating the content without having to take superclasses to take me by the hand. I find that discouraging and not really an accomplishment if my power is buffed 2 x 3 x 4 x by other people. Just how stupid is that? Please, tell me, don’t you think that this is STUPID to do? Get 100-200K more power and then say how you’re an elite player beating elite dungeons saying it’s skill? Lol it’s so silly. Yes, Epic Dungeons require tanks and healers, but a bit more tanks. If this doesn’t happen the dungeon it becomes almost unbeatable or barely manageable. Aside from that it will take more time to beat and in some cases it will be unbeatable. In some cases a tank dies – everyone die. This shouldn’t be the case in my opinion as it pampers only one class as the superclass. Yeah, we can take some of these off the list now. Like, all of them.
Yes, there is no point to have Epic Dungeons being unbeatable or nearly unplayable without a tank. The elite mobs are hitting too hard and there is no power or any other form of VIABLE substitute to a TANK class. This is one of the minor points. Yes, introduction of CC in Elite Dungeons would provide a viable method of mitigating Elite Mobs damaging powers by using SKILLFULL (elite, veteran) gameplay where you wouldn’t be obliged to grab a tank and hide behind his back for each and every mob you encounter.
This basically creates LACK of variation in terms of beating a dungeon and it makes the dungeon being played in one and only way – either with or without a tank.
And this necessity to have a tank in the game created a superclass called OP who’s serving as three separate classes altogether
- Tank
- Healer
- Buffer
Points of fact :
Aura of Courage buffing up Feytouched weapon. Aura of courage doing exponential damage, broken in some cases, hitting more than 6 times in a moment/sec for some powers. Furthermore increases the power of the party (MOAR DAMUG) by an exponential margin. This creates the best, most useful class feature in entire game. There is no competition. There is no class feature which comes close to Aura of Courage. It is the SUPERMAN feature. Now, in combination to AURA GIFTS?
“Allies within 30' of you gain 5/10/15/20/25% of your Power. They must remain within 30' of you for at least 6 seconds to gain this buff”
With those being said, who WOULDN’T be taking the OP in their party? Who would be STUPID not to take OP in their party? That’s the whole agenda about class imbalance. And is it fair that one class has so much usefulness to the point of practically being mandatory in PT compositions for the smoothest run?
Not everyone want to play with micromanagement, this is a point of fact for anyone playing NOW. And you’re not really proving anything by demanding a more challenging content when there are pressing matters revolving the foundation upon the “easy end-game content” is built upon.
And furthermore, at least try to acknowledge the point of fact I provided regarding the introduction of the potential cards managing just how hard particular dungeon can be. Can we go back to that or are we going to simply consider what 5-6 people altogether think about how one game should look like? I don’t and I do not believe that everyone single person should start ACTing in order to play Neverwinter Online. That defeats the purpose of fun for people as FUN is highly personal, individual and subjective. it is happening either way and it’s only going to ruin the game for many in the longer run as the current stigma is cancerous since it affected both players, content, cryptic and economy itself. It needs changes and I do not believe that you’re understanding this well enough. Perhaps you’re afraid of changes? If so, what is the point of going against me in the first? If you aren’t satisfied then express your opinion on being unsatisfied. Don’t come at me and say “things are bad as they are but let’s not change them” – how does that SOLVE anything?
You’re being highly unreasonable and not constructive. It’s some form of defeatist behavior which I can’t consider healthy nor may share the sentiment. I disagree and I’ve already presented a more solid and manageable way which somehow you’ve skipped at least ten times by now.
Again – CARDS, talk that. Please. Circling around the pond with you becomes rather exhausting.
But you already took the stance that it’s TOO EASY and boring, so what you have to lose? What do you want to prove? That you’re an amazing player and that Cryptic should provide you the nigh unbeatable content that only you and some other people can beat? Yeah, well guess what – that’s what essentially ELITISM is. I do not need your quick definitions from web to talk about something that’s a whole philosophical tree in both general and political philosophy. And this is what creates great division that shouldn’t exist in gaming, more so since creating such content that’s unbeatable by the majority exclusively PUTS OUT the biggest portion of the community that’s willing to actually pay and use items to beat the content.
We are already at the point where people would rather SKIP content altogether since they see no value in pursuing it. You have people already pushed over the edge who can’t trust or believe in Cryptic’s decisions and who will never, ever, buy things only to have them nerfed in a month or two. People do not even want to pursue the new weapons from CR, not only because it’s pointless, but also because it’s tiresome to grind and collect, collect, collect to prove – what? That you’ve played with the best weapon in-game for 1 week before it becomes obsolete? Is that what you’d call elitism? I don’t, to me that sucks greatly and I won’t even lift a finger to pursue it. The whole concept and premise is extremely repelling.
And luckily this will give Cryptic some idea to see just how great the disparity among the people actually is. This is the best use for CR, it shows exactly just why this form of creating content is turning to be obsolete, overused and not really effective for people playing the game anymore. No, that’s another defeatism concept. It is again something which creates disparity among people and starts people to pursue all the bad examples of how things should be done. There is always a learning curve in this game and I can’t simply turn my back to people who are less familiar with the game. I do not find pleasure in such behavior nor consider it very humane to say the least. And you’re just basically complaining that I’m even writing on forum and just basically telling me to stop because it won’t change anything because any change will make things worse, but instead you want to further complain how the content is easy and should be made to make you feel good by providing superiorly hard content which in turn would also create bad outcome, but in that case scenario you don’t really care, no? Which is a sentiment I can’t follow nor appreciate since it’s highly defeatist, yet elitist in its nature. And as such it’s contradictory to itself since you are stating
- SAY NO TO META
but then you’re stating that the
- SUCCUMB TO META
Perhaps if you read your whole statements from start to finish you will realize this and see where your major faults are presented. You’re basically DISLIKING the idea I’m presenting without necessarily counter-attacking the idea itself. So, let’s talk about the idea because that’s your major problem with it obviously. What seems to be the problem?
As I state this to everyone entering, if you're not able to offer anything constructive nor want to indulge yourself in reading the topic already, please abstain from commenting in a derailing manner. It's not productive, it is restrictive and doesn't serve any purpose but averting people from actually investing themselves in a discussion.
If you have something against me personally, please do state it via PM so that I may see what the problem actually is. If you consider me rude for asking for some civility, mannerism and appeal, please consider me the rudest person that there is.
Thank you.
I have to, once again, apologize for not being here to discuss further. I have to postpone it.
Due to many obligations in private life I will leave the topic and discussions for a more appropriate time.
Please, do know that i respect and acknowledge your opinions on matters and appreciate all the time you've taken to talk about (buddy : ) ).
I can see that we're coming from very similar positions, albeit with completely different goals or ways to solve it. I will continue discussion some other time. I hope that you do not mind my tone whenever it was during/in the heat of discussion. These things are normal and expected in my experience, so I hope that you do not mind as I do not mind whatever you've written thus far.
If anything, it was a pleasure talking to you whether you'd like to continue this some other time or not.
Unfortunately it might take me up to two weeks to return here and reply. I hope that someone else can stress out some more valid points in the meantime and that the topic can take a rather constructive turn.
Cheers and peace.