So end-game is focused only on 4 Support roles and 1 DPS? The Meta demands it. The content demands it. it is not a question of being a newbie, it is a question of playing a class. The two aren't comparable. I do not see how you connected the two to begin with. Just because you have the option of choosing a premade team of people willing to orient themselves to be most useful in the dungeon-only content doesn't mean that the content is okay or that there aren't people who play different classes nor it means that everyone should do the same. What is the point of doing that? By that logic let us all be CWs and return MOD3 with perma-freeze and make people to either play as CWs alone or do not play at all?
Are you suggesting to remove the need for tanks or healers/mitigators in the game? It used to be like that, when people ran 5x CW groups. And that was far less healthy for the game than what is happening right now.
Do you think nowadays gameplay is healthy when buffs and powersharing are clearly overbalanced in this game? Do you think its "healthy" when as guild leader I have to make rookies understand that they have to drop their TR/SW and start level paladin and clerics? And have to force 80% of my guild to have OP/DC when in need?
Agree. But it´s not that you have to force anyone, since every player who wants to get acces to actual content is forced to either build a group himelf 24/7 or just stay out, if he doesn´t have 4 buffer at hand who are willing to join. 80% player in this game are forced to run supporter or stay and pray all day and that´s not what a game should be like. They started in i guess mod 7 or 8 to balance classes, adjust buffs and fix bugs... but somehow they forgot about their plans and stopped going on.
I think I said this allreday 4 years ago, no class should buff another classes dps x2-3 and actually mitigation tools are overbuffed same way. Content is following those max-buff-setups and devs do not show up with healthy solutions so far, they implement dungeons where those buffs are essential to some degree.
Wow, the incredible walls of text are incredible!!!
@pterias I am sorry for making such a long post. I just wanted to explain the reasoning behind my preference for the distribution of content in a game. I wrote a lot of long papers in college, so writing is an easy way to express my opinion.
Oh, haha, I wasn't really directing that at you! It was just an overall reaction to how long page 2 had become to scroll through! I've been known to write some silly-long posts myself.
There is a huge difference between a team with players that know their class, and another team where the players understand all classes. For example, some [support] players understand when, for example, the specific class/spec of DPS is ready to dump a rotation. Therefore, they can throw out all of their buffs and debuffs (so that they overlap) exactly when that specific DPS is ready to dump their strong rotation. Some DPS need to know to wait, while in other parties, the support needs to know when to wait. To end this example, I will talk about my DC. When fighting a boss with a Conq GF [as main DPS], I need to have all of my buffs and debuffs overlap [which is a very small window] exactly when the GF uses Griffon's Wrath [if that is what they are using]. This means, I need to understand how to time my rotation so that everything can be active at once. I need to understand all of the up-times for each buff, and debuff, to cause them to overlap [by using them in the correct order]. Additionally, [and much more important] if you are not watching your GF self-buffing himself, or herself, (or don't know what a Conq GFs rotation consists of) you might significantly slow down the run by applying your buffs/debuffs too early or too late. On the GF's [or any DPS] side of things, he or she might decide to attack or mark the boss before the AC DC have applied both Anointed Army AND Blessings of Battle to their character AND companion. This will significantly impact their DPS negatively for the entire fight (or at least for 30 seconds).
I could go on and on about each and every classes "jobs" in order to make a run really smooth and fast, but I think I have already established a point that most casual players probably don't pay attention to these synergies.
I think this is another place where my table-top D&D player side just doesn't mesh well. To my sensibilities, this borders on exploitative powergaming, which has no place at my game table. It's one reason I won't touch 3rd Edition, because it's rife with this kind of stuff. When I've tried to play D&D this way, I came away feeling dirty and "why bother playing if this is how you do it"-ish. When I think about having to play this game that way, I don't feel *quite* as bad, but it's similar.
To each their own of course, but I guess my argument is that plenty of MMOs are super meta-gamey, does this one really need to be too? If so, I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed. It wasn't always so, it doesn't seem like it needs (or needed) to become so.
Some players will always try to optimize their builds and parties. There is no way to stop that from happening. Trying to change the current "EPIC DUNGEON PARTY COMPOSITION PROBLEMATICS", as this thread is titled, will only create a new meta. A new "ideal" composition (including builds/classes/rotations/timing/synergy/coordination) will manifest after any adjustments.
I do have to strongly disagree with this argument. That is just pure defeatism. Following that train of logic, the devs shouldn't bother to do anything because something else will just always go wrong. Sure, there may always be a "meta", but how much gravity that meta has can vary dramatically. Right now, we are being devoured by a "4 support" meta black hole. The gravity is so strong that everything else is being destroyed or flung out into deep space. We can absolutely have a healthier balance of options where none (or very few) are left out in the cold. Even if some new, more minor meta develops, it doesn't have to be so overwhelmingly strong as to shut out half the characters in the game. Currently, the misbalance between what people HAVE to play (support) vs. what people WANT to play (DPS) is the largest obstacle to that goal.
Oh, haha, I wasn't really directing that at you! It was just an overall reaction to how long page 2 had become to scroll through! I've been known to write some silly-long posts myself.
Lol NP buddy I wasn't offended or anything anyways, but good to know!
I think this is another place where my table-top D&D player side just doesn't mesh well. To my sensibilities, this borders on exploitative powergaming, which has no place at my game table. It's one reason I won't touch 3rd Edition, because it's rife with this kind of stuff. When I've tried to play D&D this way, I came away feeling dirty and "why bother playing if this is how you do it"-ish. When I think about having to play this game that way, I don't feel *quite* as bad, but it's similar.
To each their own of course, but I guess my argument is that plenty of MMOs are super meta-gamey, does this one really need to be too? If so, I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed. It wasn't always so, it doesn't seem like it needs (or needed) to become so.
Yeah, it isn't a problem if you don't feel the same way. I just feel like I want to work my butt off to make sure my toon, and my team, is as powerful as it can be and still face a significant challenge.
I do have to strongly disagree with this argument. That is just pure defeatism. Following that train of logic, the devs shouldn't bother to do anything because something else will just always go wrong. Sure, there may always be a "meta", but how much gravity that meta has can vary dramatically. Right now, we are being devoured by a "4 support" meta black hole. The gravity is so strong that everything else is being destroyed or flung out into deep space. We can absolutely have a healthier balance of options where none (or very few) are left out in the cold. Even if some new, more minor meta develops, it doesn't have to be so overwhelmingly strong as to shut out half the characters in the game. Currently, the misbalance between what people HAVE to play (support) vs. what people WANT to play (DPS) is the largest obstacle to that goal.
Well I just want to clarify something. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with a some sort of "meta" existing in a game. I think it is just a natural aspect of gaming (at least for some people). I wasn't being a defeatist. I am fine with that reality. I believe that [some] players will always work to figure out what the optimal 5 man setup is, and then share it with the community. To that, I put two thumbs up! Also, you say people "HAVE to play [support]". I personally have a CW and a DC both ready for PvE. I never feel like I "have to play" my DC. I do understand however, that some people have a lot of trouble finding groups and I sympathize with that. Next, I want to specifically respond to:
"Following that train of logic, the devs shouldn't bother to do anything because something else will just always go wrong".
Again, there is nothing wrong with a meta in my opinion. The actual thing that we are referring to here is called a "meta game". One example of this is to use external resources to influence a game [like a spreadsheet, or graph, or formula, etc]. I believe there are some people out there who will always do just that, and then share it with the community. People like me appreciate that and try to contribute what we can [very little lol]. The devs can adjust the game, and they should when necessary.
Like I said, the main reason I came here to post was because people were suggesting making the content easier so that it isn't "necessary" to run 4 supports. It isn't necessary for 4 supports, end of story. That just makes the run smoother and faster, at the moment. I am perfectly fine with the devs nerfing the DC/OP in some way [if enough players actually want that], even though I have a DC that I love playing. I just hope two other things don't happen...
1.) The "end game" content shouldn't get easier. Definitely not so much that you can (as was suggested somewhere) run it with 5 13K DPS players. No thank you to that!
2.) Hopefully whatever fix they make doesn't make OPs or DCs useless. Regarding powersharing, buffing, and debuffing if they [OP/DC] fall behind (bringing a DPS instead) they will probably only get invites to groups who are wiping and need help staying alive. The rest will probably invite a GF instead, since they can tank and offer better personal damage. Who knows, maybe even that will change without a strong buff window. I am cool with whatever specific combination becomes the ideal, even if I have to make a new class to respond (would rather not though lol).
Other than that I am fine with pretty much any balancing change that doesn't make the end game trivial. If we could do all content with 5 under-geared DPS, Neverwinter would honestly feel like a glorified version of the game Castle Crashers
Like I said, the main reason I came here to post was because people were suggesting making the content easier so that it isn't "necessary" to run 4 supports. It isn't necessary for 4 supports, end of story. That just makes the run smoother and faster, at the moment. I am perfectly fine with the devs nerfing the DC/OP in some way [if enough players actually want that], even though I have a DC that I love playing. I just hope two other things don't happen...
1.) The "end game" content shouldn't get easier. Definitely not so much that you can (as was suggested somewhere) run it with 5 13K DPS players. No thank you to that!
2.) Hopefully whatever fix they make doesn't make OPs or DCs useless. Regarding powersharing, buffing, and debuffing if they [OP/DC] fall behind (bringing a DPS instead) they will probably only get invites to groups who are wiping and need help staying alive. The rest will probably invite a GF instead, since they can tank and offer better personal damage. Who knows, maybe even that will change without a strong buff window. I am cool with whatever specific combination becomes the ideal, even if I have to make a new class to respond (would rather not though lol).
Other than that I am fine with pretty much any balancing change that doesn't make the end game trivial. If we could do all content with 5 under-geared DPS, Neverwinter would honestly feel like a glorified version of the game Castle Crashers
Try telling everyone else in-game that 4 supports aren't necessary.
To be clear on my end as well, I fully agree with both of your numbered points. I think it's important that EVERYONE has a place in dungeons. That's really the whole point, but right now, that's not happening. Supports shouldn't be fed to the wolves either. We need to find a balance between what everyone brings to the table so that the original design intent of 1 tank, 1 healer, and 3 DPS can become the desirable norm again. That also includes making each class competitive within each role as well.
Okay so I haven't been able to play NW for some days due to RL stuff.
I got on today and ran a Castle Ravenloft with NO OP , NO x2DC , AND 3DPS Toons
We weren't all high IL either. Also, the last boss bugged at the "Brink of Death". 2 players were stuck in the floor (near the outside) and were killed because they couldn't move into the bubble from the sunsword. We had to finish the boss without the main DPS and only 3 players alive (from about 30% HP) I checked the video. This added roughly 6 minutes to the run time (took 3 extra phases). We STILL MADE A GREAT TIME!
Now I'll share mine. The last time I finished CR, it was 2xDC, 1xOP, 1xTR and 1xSW (Templock) so pretty close to the meta. We finished it in 62 minutes. But, we were also not on voice comms coordinating all our buffs. Actually, I think the fastest I have ever finished CR was around 50 minutes. I have never seen anything like what you showed in the video.
I think one reason why a lot of people say "4xSupport 1xDPS is NEEDED" is because the content is hard enough, that in uncoordinated teams, these teams need a larger quantity of buffs flying around so that, at any given moment, there are just enough buffs active for long enough for the team to complete the content. So, take away one of the support characters, and the team loses enough buffs that the content becomes not simply "longer", but just not completable anymore.
Just finished another one earlier tonight. The group was 2xDC, 1xTR, 1xCW and 1xOP. It lasted just over 40 minutes, which is the fastest I've ever done it, and the run itself was very smooth at least from my point of view. The DO DC was 15kish, while everyone else was 16.8k or higher.
Can anyone explain the negative billion points on that CW? Do you, by any chance, have the combatlog of the run?
Other than that, very nice. However I wouldn't call 17K "non high" level. That's 4.000 more IL than what is the minimum level to enter.
Although you could argue that Warlock was carrying the pt and DC was still there to power-share. No matter how you look at it you still need that power-share.
This is why people will still call others to join them and others will be DCs and OPS, recently tact GFs. That's just how it is.
I have a funny situation not that long ago... One kid asked me "hey we need a mof in tong, are you available pls" and I wrote that "I'm not a mof" only to receive "Oh, nothing then"
Just imagine what value the META has in young people's minds, for them that is the quintessential stuff. I've read so many times "we didn't finish CR because we didn't have enough DPS" instead of "We got tired with Sister's HP pool, lost concentration and eventually gave up or lost the will to play since we've no 20K IL GWF on our side"
The point is - at the end of the day you can end up with 250.000 - 300.000 power on your char in dungeons with 4 support chars. How is that WAI I will never understand.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
Can anyone explain the negative billion points on that CW? Do you, by any chance, have the combatlog of the run?
Other than that, very nice. However I wouldn't call 17K "non high" level. That's 4.000 more IL than what is the minimum level to enter.
Although you could argue that Warlock was carrying the pt and DC was still there to power-share. No matter how you look at it you still need that power-share.
This is why people will still call others to join them and others will be DCs and OPS, recently tact GFs. That's just how it is.
I have a funny situation not that long ago... One kid asked me "hey we need a mof in tong, are you available pls" and I wrote that "I'm not a mof" only to receive "Oh, nothing then"
Just imagine what value the META has in young people's minds, for them that is the quintessential stuff. I've read so many times "we didn't finish CR because we didn't have enough DPS" instead of "We got tired with Sister's HP pool, lost concentration and eventually gave up or lost the will to play since we've no 20K IL GWF on our side"
The point is - at the end of the day you can end up with 250.000 - 300.000 power on your char in dungeons with 4 support chars. How is that WAI I will never understand.
The negaitv DPS is a bug in CR. A short while after the second boss is starts putting a '-' infront of the paingiver for the main dps.
Can anyone explain the negative billion points on that CW? Do you, by any chance, have the combatlog of the run?
That was the GWF, not the CW with a negative "paingiver" value. That always happenswhen you go over a certain amount of damage. I think it is 1.5B but I'm not sure. After that, you damage just has a "negative" sign before it.
Although you could argue that Warlock was carrying the pt and DC was still there to power-share. No matter how you look at it you still need that power-share.
I'm sorry @c1k4ml3kc3 but no... That SW is reaaaally good though!The run could have even been faster if I was DPS DO. However, the run might have been a little less "smooth" without the added perks of having an AC. The primary thing to realize here buddy is, you only get 200-300K Power (as you say) from my DC when all things are going well (BoB and AA before companion's gift or the refresh point). This simply doesn't happen 100% of the time, and when it doesn't, a DPS DO will speed up the run much better. You can fact check that with some resources, they are out there. I don't have much time for this post though.
This is why people will still call others to join them and others will be DCs and OPS, recently tact GFs. That's just how it is.
I'm sorry dude but again, no. When built and coordinated correctly, most of the time, a Conq GF (full DPS) is much better for run speed. The reality is that "good" players already build their supports like DPS. That's why players like me are asking to not have the content be made any more trivial. IT IS ALREADY IN A GOOD SPOT! However, you have to spend the time to learn your class, play it correctly, and work well with your team. You do these things, and you will have no problem running any content, I promise.
I have a funny situation not that long ago... One kid asked me "hey we need a mof in tong, are you available pls" and I wrote that "I'm not a mof" only to receive "Oh, nothing then"
So why not build your Spellstorm CW so that you can be effective (if you are saying people don't desire it)? People will notice. That way people will invite you to come be full DPS for their run. I get to play my CW as SS sometimes, why can't you? SS is great for DPS. If you play or build it incorrectly though, you are going to spend an hour in Castle Ravenloft, or more. THAT IS GOOD.
Just imagine what value the META has in young people's minds, for them that is the quintessential stuff. I've read so many times "we didn't finish CR because we didn't have enough DPS" instead of "We got tired with Sister's HP pool, lost concentration and eventually gave up or lost the will to play since we've no 20K IL GWF on our side"
That is absolutely false dude, again I'm sorry, but it is a fact. My GWF was 15K. He did excellent. My CW was 14K. She did excellent. You don't need high IL OR 4 supports to clear Castle Ravenloft quickly and smoothly. If we can do it, you can too. Don't try to argue that it is difficult, because it is not. I know I sound disrespectful, but I am trying really hard to type this clearly, and without any disrespect. I mean you no disrespect, I hope you understand that fully. If people are not playing correctly, they will struggle their butt off (and maybe even fail) in the hardest content of the game. HOW is that a BAD thing? That is how it is supposed to be.
The point is - at the end of the day you can end up with 250.000 - 300.000 power on your char in dungeons with 4 support chars. How is that WAI I will never understand.
I'm sorry buddy but again, that is just wrong. I have only consistently seen 300K power on the TRs I play with (because they buff their own power too). You can't make the hardest content in this game able to be completed with 5 13K DPS players. That would ruin any challenge that is left.
Can anyone explain the negative billion points on that CW? Do you, by any chance, have the combatlog of the run?
Other than that, very nice. However I wouldn't call 17K "non high" level. That's 4.000 more IL than what is the minimum level to enter.
Although you could argue that Warlock was carrying the pt and DC was still there to power-share. No matter how you look at it you still need that power-share.
This is why people will still call others to join them and others will be DCs and OPS, recently tact GFs. That's just how it is.
I have a funny situation not that long ago... One kid asked me "hey we need a mof in tong, are you available pls" and I wrote that "I'm not a mof" only to receive "Oh, nothing then"
Just imagine what value the META has in young people's minds, for them that is the quintessential stuff. I've read so many times "we didn't finish CR because we didn't have enough DPS" instead of "We got tired with Sister's HP pool, lost concentration and eventually gave up or lost the will to play since we've no 20K IL GWF on our side"
The point is - at the end of the day you can end up with 250.000 - 300.000 power on your char in dungeons with 4 support chars. How is that WAI I will never understand.
The negaitv DPS is a bug in CR. A short while after the second boss is starts putting a '-' infront of the paingiver for the main dps.
It's because the number becomes so big, it overflows the memory space it has assigned to it. Based on when this happens, I'd guess they are using a signed 32-bit integer variable, which runs out at 2,147,483,647. The service recording the number is treating it as an unsigned int, but it's being read as a signed int. Hence the negative (signed int treats first bit as +/- indicator).
For giggles, if you see a negative number, treat it as positive and add 2,147,482,648 to get the true paingiver number.
Now I'll share mine. The last time I finished CR, it was 2xDC, 1xOP, 1xTR and 1xSW (Templock) so pretty close to the meta. We finished it in 62 minutes.
Well, I don't want to make any assumptions. I have to say this though. I don't know which TR you were playing with, but a TR is HIT or SUPER miss. Some TRs are sooo good it is insane. Don't misunderstand this, TRs are awesome and always welcome in groups. They can do awesome DPS and clear content super fast. However, if a TR plays bad, it is VERY bad when compared to other classes. Even a really good Pally can do more DPS than a really bad TR, easily. I have personally seen this a couple times.
But, we were also not on voice comms coordinating all our buffs.
Voice comms definitely help, but really aren't necessary (I deeply wish they were though). A "good" DPS will always hold off on a HDPS rotation, and use it when enough relevant buffs pop up on the buff bar. I watch my buff bar almost exclusively when fighting bosses with my CW. I also pay attention to the other players in my party. Timing a rotation is really only SUPER important though on GF/TR, currently (another reason maybe for the long run time). The bosses in NW simply don't have enough HP or sufficient DPS "check" mechanics (like the second boss of CR and first in ToNG) for buff call-outs (voice comm) to be a necessity in PvE.
I think one reason why a lot of people say "4xSupport 1xDPS is NEEDED" is because the content is hard enough, that in uncoordinated teams, these teams need a larger quantity of buffs flying around so that, at any given moment, there are just enough buffs active for long enough for the team to complete the content. So, take away one of the support characters, and the team loses enough buffs that the content becomes not simply "longer", but just not completable anymore.
I sort of agree and disagree with this. I want to point out that you said "people say 4x Support 1xDPS is NEEDED". I think you agree (at least to some degree) that this is a perception, not a reality. If a party needs "a larger quantity of buffs flying around so that, at any given moment, there are just enough buffs active for long enough for the team to complete the content", then that party is not ready for the given content, in my opinion. It is not hard (as a DPS) to pay attention to a situation and make good choices. I don't know how else to say that. That is honestly what makes or breaks a DPS player. I do agree though, that the content is hard without everyone working together well. Thank god for that though! Come on guys, that is how "end-game" content is supposed to be!!!
You needn't be since no harm was done nor was any major point being (dis)proven to any margin in the discussion. Paraphrasing the personal party composition doesn't really relate to the actual meta in the zone chat/lfg chat/group dungeon chats.
but no... That SW is reaaaally good though!The run could have even been faster if I was DPS DO. However, the run might have been a little less "smooth" without the added perks of having an AC. The primary thing to realize here buddy is, you only get 200-300K Power (as you say) from my DC when all things are going well (BoB and AA before companion's gift or the refresh point). This simply doesn't happen 100% of the time, and when it doesn't, a DPS DO will speed up the run much better. You can fact check that with some resources, they are out there. I don't have much time for this post though.
Which is why people usually go with a combination of two DCs, one AC and one DO. I like how you think that I'm unfamiliar with the game's mechanic and then talk to me like we're some sort of buddies and you're going to explain some great truths or whatever. It's cute. Anyway, I even more like that you believe that power sharing is not a problem. Even if you manage to share 100K of power that is a major increase in damage. Give one OP in the combo, some Fey here and there, aura of courage and you've got yourself a deadly party that can vanquish any content with much ease. The underlying problem is the power sharing.
I'm sorry dude but again, no. When built and coordinated correctly, most of the time, a Conq GF (full DPS) is much better for run speed.
You're arguing semantics and skipping the major problem. GF is still devised as a TANK class, meaning Support., even if you build him as a DPS oriented. Yes, people chose them for the sake of DPS. Point is - they chose the GF. That's all there is to it. Acknowledge that.
The reality is that "good" players already build their supports like DPS. That's why players like me are asking to not have the content be made any more trivial. IT IS ALREADY IN A GOOD SPOT! However, you have to spend the time to learn your class, play it correctly, and work well with your team. You do these things, and you will have no problem running any content, I promise.
There is no "good spot" if you can achieve 300K power by utilizing power sharing. Don't talk nonsense. This is about class balance in the Epic Dungeons, not about how you personally feel about the content. Again, you as well as some of the guys before who stated, if you want a more challenging content you might as well get a "challenge card" that will allow some of you to run spicy runs if that's what you enjoy. The rest of the folk shouldn't be punished by not being able to visit the content itself just because
A) they do not feel strongly about using power sharing, that's highly effective even on the lowest of OP/DC combos alike. some people are afraid that they won't be "elitist enough" anymore, bragging about in their alliance chat or similar how they beat some content nobody else did whilst having 4 supports carrying them throughout the dungeon, taking the beating and giving them power and heals.
It's like in ancient times, you're on the throne of DPS and others carry you around through the dungeon, and then you feel important and elite. Lol what a joke, that's noskiller right there. Anyone's a superman with 100k+ power and can hit like a bull with (de)buffs. Let's not go into how people lack skill to play.
You take ENJOYMENT as a major motive in your talk. What about other people's enjoyment? Don't be so selfish into thinking that the game content needs to be available only to select few and the rest to play after a year or so...
So why not build your Spellstorm CW so that you can be effective (if you are saying people don't desire it)? People will notice. That way people will invite you to come be full DPS for their run. I get to play my CW as SS sometimes, why can't you? SS is great for DPS. If you play or build it incorrectly though, you are going to spend an hour in Castle Ravenloft, or more. THAT IS GOOD.
I like how you think that there's a problem with my CW.
For this one I'm going to refer to you as BUDDY.
Dear BUDDY, the META itself governs which class is desirable. For a long time now it was a MOF CW playing as a Renegade. Oppressor CWs and Thaumaturge CWs are at a disadvantage party-wise. The build I'm playing is perfectly fine to run any content, but this is not about my personal runs in the dungeons themselves. You're making the same error like people before you who do not want to accept a few simple truths about the Epic Dungeon problematics in terms of the Class Balance.
Please remember : It is not about beating the content with the meta premade team. It is about not being able to do so without necessarily bringing in a TANK/HEALER combo who are, btw, also the major buffers in the party. They are a multirole. They are a SUPERCLASS and go well hand in hand with eachother, thus reducing the possibility and plausibility for any other class to be a part of the team. If this is seriously so hard to understand and read a few posts above then I'm speechless and I won't be talking anymore regarding it since you're completely skipping the real issue at hand, quite possibly because you do not consider it an issue at all. THANKFULLY, you're not correct since the power sharing is simply way too effective for its own good and the good of the game itself. The pressing issue is that people are being forced into playing a support role whether they want it or not just for the sake of beating the content.
That is absolutely false dude, again I'm sorry, but it is a fact. My GWF was 15K. He did excellent. My CW was 14K. She did excellent. You don't need high IL OR 4 supports to clear Castle Ravenloft quickly and smoothly. If we can do it, you can too. Don't try to argue that it is difficult, because it is not. I know I sound disrespectful, but I am trying really hard to type this clearly, and without any disrespect. I mean you no disrespect, I hope you understand that fully. If people are not playing correctly, they will struggle their butt off (and maybe even fail) in the hardest content of the game. HOW is that a BAD thing? That is how it is supposed to be.
BUDDY, do the same thing without the DC. Then come back and maybe you will realize what the problem actually is. Sincerely, your OTHER BUDDY.
I'm sorry buddy but again, that is just wrong. I have only consistently seen 300K power on the TRs I play with (because they buff their own power too). You can't make the hardest content in this game able to be completed with 5 13K DPS players. That would ruin any challenge that is left.
Eh... Irrelevant completely, but thanks for trying BUDDY.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
I don't know what to tell you. The "needing" a "meta" is just a perception, not a reality. That isn't something that the devs can address. My point here stands, you don't need some meta group to complete CoDG/ToNG/CR. I will say again, you don't need a meta team for the hardest content in this game, end of story. Here is one more example, today (just for fun) we did ToNG with NO TANK. You say "TANK/HEALER" combo is so important. Then how did we finish ToNG in 19 minutes with no tank? It was a super easy run too... We weren't even speeding through this. We were just hanging out in discord, messing around, and telling jokes. I understand that this is an example with 1 DPS, but we had NO TANK, come on....ToNG should be IMPOSSIBLE without a tank. It is an "end-game" epic dungeon.
Please devs if you are checking in here, don't take away the only dungeon (Castle Ravenloft) that is remotely challenging by making it easily completed by everyone, and every combination of classes. There are plenty of dungeons at different tiers of difficulties, appropriate for different players (at different levels of progression). You have done a good job at that so far. Right now, to some degree, there is content for everyone. Please don't take away the one piece of content that is challenging and fun, for some players.
More seriously, 1.) change buffs to add instead of multiply, and 2.) add (normal) version of all the later (master) dungeons and trials with reduced rewards so people can actually learn how to do them and more than 5-10% of the playerbase gets to experience the content AT ALL.
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Also, @iimrmonkeyii#3625 , your posting style of every other thing being bold or italic is stressful to read.
Okay so I haven't been able to play NW for some days due to RL stuff.
I got on today and ran a Castle Ravenloft with NO OP , NO x2DC , AND 3DPS Toons
We weren't all high IL either. Also, the last boss bugged at the "Brink of Death". 2 players were stuck in the floor (near the outside) and were killed because they couldn't move into the bubble from the sunsword. We had to finish the boss without the main DPS and only 3 players alive (from about 30% HP) I checked the video. This added roughly 6 minutes to the run time (took 3 extra phases). We STILL MADE A GREAT TIME!
Here is the result:
If your SW was a templock and your CW was a MoF, then yes, you do have the 1 dps, 4 support meta, I'm sorry to say it. Seeing that the next in paingiver was the SW at only a fraction of the damage of the GWF, then I'm inclined to say that it fits the meta.
More seriously, 1.) change buffs to add instead of multiply, and 2.) add (normal) version of all the later (master) dungeons and trials with reduced rewards so people can actually learn how to do them and more than 5-10% of the playerbase gets to experience the content AT ALL.
Also, @iimrmonkeyii#3625 , your posting style of every other thing being bold or italic is stressful to read.
Well, sorry that my posting style is stressful for you to read. That wasn't my intention. I won't use any bold or italics here for you.
I don't have a problem with those suggestions. Making buffs additive [the way debuffs are right now] isn't really a bad idea.
I just hope that the DPS people understand that runs will take longer (which is fine), and DPS players will have more competition (because their DPS potential will be even more related to "clear-speed" than now). People will be more inclined to run with DPS they know are really good, and/or "LFM DPS 17K+" will become even more common.
Your #2 point is excellent. Great idea! I also hope that (in the future) we can get more than one dungeon or trial with a module release. After players finish their campaigns and toons there really isn't much to do. You can run one dungeon or trial (to sell stuff on the AH) and jump around in PE on your mount. lol (I think some people can relate to that last part)
I think adding more dungeons overall, would be very much appreciated. I just hope that too much time isn't spent on specific adjustments to classes or items (because we all know how that has played out most times) lol. Balancing classes themselves is such a complex task. I have to say that Cryptic has done an excellent job at one specific thing. I greatly enjoy the fact that every class is currently welcome in groups. There isn't a single class in the game that can't be useful to a group. I think we are at least in decent shape. Adding more content for people at "end-game" (or close to it) really is something that is currently, very important.
If Cryptic brought back those old dungeons at different difficulty levels (some like EToS and some like CR) people would be so thankful. If they made that same amount of dungeons (new ones) and spread them out like that it would be just as awesome.
If your SW was a templock and your CW was a MoF, then yes, you do have the 1 dps, 4 support meta, I'm sorry to say it. Seeing that the next in paingiver was the SW at only a fraction of the damage of the GWF, then I'm inclined to say that it fits the meta.
I'm sorry if that was misunderstood. The purpose of that post was to respond to comments like this one below. I was just pointing out that no classes are "left out" at the moment.
Do you think its "healthy" when as guild leader I have to make rookies understand that they have to drop their TR/SW and start level paladin and clerics? And have to force 80% of my guild to have OP/DC when in need?
You can play any class you want in Neverwinter (currently) and have no trouble finding groups. If you are good at your class, you will actually be forced to set your social preference to "invisible" to avoid having to respond to all the PMs, or being rude by not replying, while you are not looking for runs.
I'm sorry if that was misunderstood. The purpose of that post was to respond to comments like this one below. I was just pointing out that no classes are "left out" at the moment.
Do you think its "healthy" when as guild leader I have to make rookies understand that they have to drop their TR/SW and start level paladin and clerics? And have to force 80% of my guild to have OP/DC when in need?
You can play any class you want in Neverwinter (currently) and have no trouble finding groups. If you are good at your class, you will actually be forced to set your social preference to "invisible" to avoid having to respond to all the PMs, or being rude by not replying, while you are not looking for runs.
No, I don't think I misunderstood you. The premise of your example was that you stated you used "3 dps toons" and here I am wondering whether or not you actually did. If you define "DPS" as their primary contribution, then you'd have at least a Fury SW, and your CW would have done a lot more damage than being 2nd last on paingiver.
You cannot change the parameters of your argument and say that I misunderstood you.
No @vordayn you have clearly misunderstood me, and where this discussion came from. Let me remind you. This discussion was made because people feel like they have to play support classes (toons) or support buildsto be included in content. I have made it perfectly clear that this idea is false, end of story. For example, the CW in my run could have played as a SS, and we could have still made great time by adjusting the group. Even without adjusting the group, it really wouldn't be that much of a difference. Every single class is included in dungeon runs. Not a single class is excluded from epic dungeon party compositions. I don't see why that is so hard to understand.
Now please, understand me this time. These are the points (from the beginning of the discussion, and along with the others throughout [which I am not going to spend time quoting]) that I am responding to.
When something is bad, I will say that it is bad. And the Epic Dungeon content is extremely bad because it's extremely class restrictive. And that restriction falls onto SUPPORT classes.
The system says 3 DPS and 2 Support (Tank + Healer). Is that a joke, ask I? Is that a slap in the face, ask I? That does not happen, ever, whatsoever. Because there is a flaw in the way system works and the way how the content is restrictive to the classes in Neverwinter.
I am a longtime Neverwinter player who plays with a Spell Storm Wizard class. As such I am at a huge disadvantage when it comes around going into any Epic Dungeon with any party.
Even in the test runs there is META play, so unless I play as a Paladin or Devoted Cleric I can say goodbye to the dungeon.
The latest Castle Ravenloft Epic Dungeon needs a Paladin (Healadin if you will), Two Devoted Clerics and a Guardian Fighter to actually have a decent team with decent survivability options in contrast to the speed of beating the given content. This automatically shuts down my Executioner TR friends in party alongside with me as a Spell Storm Wizard. I have to play as a Master of Flame in order to be actually useful in boss fights. Why is this a necessity? Is that equality? No. That being said, that is FOUR support classes.
If I am forced to play a class I do not enjoy just in order to beat the content that is inevitably called - WORKING THE CONTENT. I do not want my FUN TIME to turn into WORK TIME. I do not want to play as a class I do not enjoy playing. Yet, the META demands that and has been demanding it for a long time now.
Thank you, but do not do this anymore as there are classes which are not welcome in the Epic Dungeon queue. Dear developers I URGE YOU to make a SURVEY asking people about how many people actually play the dungeons as their favorite class or whether they are forced into waiting for a DC + OP combo in order to play the game.
This is not diversity, this is exclusivity.
Here, the discussion began talking about support classes and support roles. As I said before, if the CW wanted to play SS in our run we could have adjusted accordingly and still had an awesome run. The below example clearly shows that you can queue for the [3 DPS + 1 Healer + 1 Tank] composition (without an OP) of Random Expert Queue, and complete the content just fine. The above post clearly states that; "The system says 3 DPS and 2 Support (Tank + Healer). Is that a joke, ask I? Is that a slap in the face, ask I? That does not happen, ever, whatsoever", which is obviously false. Again, to simplify this for you... My argument is:
No classes in Neverwinter are excluded from viable group compositions. All classes are welcome in "end-game" party compositions. All classes can contribute to a great, smooth, fast run. Queuing, for a dungeon (even Castle Ravenloft) with 3 DPS + 1 Tank + 1 Healer is entirely possible, and even viable for decent run-times. Some classes even benefit (think CW) by being able to fill multiple roles easily.
Okay so I haven't been able to play NW for some days due to RL stuff.
I got on today and ran a Castle Ravenloft with NO OP , NO x2DC , AND 3DPS Toons
We weren't all high IL either. Also, the last boss bugged at the "Brink of Death". 2 players were stuck in the floor (near the outside) and were killed because they couldn't move into the bubble from the sunsword. We had to finish the boss without the main DPS and only 3 players alive (from about 30% HP) I checked the video. This added roughly 6 minutes to the run time (took 3 extra phases). We STILL MADE A GREAT TIME!
Here is the result:
If your SW was a templock and your CW was a MoF, then yes, you do have the 1 dps, 4 support meta, I'm sorry to say it. Seeing that the next in paingiver was the SW at only a fraction of the damage of the GWF, then I'm inclined to say that it fits the meta.
This discussion was started by the idea that some classes were being excluded, they aren't. I can't make this any more clear for you.
You don't need to scrutinize my post by stating the obvious that 2 of the DPS toons were using loadouts that lean towards support. If I was trying to sneak around with some weird motive and hide that fact, I wouldn't have specifically put the paingiver chart in the screenshot man. I was making the point that you can queue up with 3 DPS + 1 Healer + 1 Tank and finish the "hardest" dungeon in the game. Even more so, you can do it in a half-way decent time. On top of that, I was proving that you don't need x2 DC in one queue, or an OP with AoC, to run a fast smooth run. Do you understand my post a little bit better now?
Additionally, we all have to acknowledge something here. It is actually a great thing that some classes have access to multiple viable build options and loadouts. The CW is the perfect example of this. You can play many different loadouts that are viable for different party compositions. It is actually one of the most versatile classes in the entire game, in my opinion.
@vordayn I came back and read through my post after I posted it. I don't mean you any disrespect either, I hope it doesn't seem that way. I am just posting here to do a few things.
Express my opinion that (because this is player feedback):
1.) The content shouldn't get any easier. 2.) Classes are pretty well balanced, and no classes are excluded. 3.) Hoping that devs will focus on creating more challenging content that has better rewards, rather than more huge class changes. 4.) The content at the moment is easily completed with a huge variety of compositions. 5.) The need for x2 DC + OP + GF in every group is a perception, not a reality (that doesn't mean that it isn't good). 6.) I am fine with buff/debuff/power share interactions being toned down. That would make the content much more challenging. 7.) I hope that one day there will be some content that forces a group to optimize, coordinate, and push through trial and error for a single successful attempt.
No @vordayn you have clearly misunderstood me, and where this discussion came from. Let me remind you. This discussion was made because people feel like they have to play support classes (toons) or support buildsto be included in content. I have made it perfectly clear that this idea is false, end of story. For example, the CW in my run could have played as a SS, and we could have still made great time by adjusting the group. Even without adjusting the group, it really wouldn't be that much of a difference. Every single class is included in dungeon runs. Not a single class is excluded from epic dungeon party compositions. I don't see why that is so hard to understand.
Now please, understand me this time. These are the points (from the beginning of the discussion, and along with the others throughout [which I am not going to spend time quoting]) that I am responding to.
When something is bad, I will say that it is bad. And the Epic Dungeon content is extremely bad because it's extremely class restrictive. And that restriction falls onto SUPPORT classes.
The system says 3 DPS and 2 Support (Tank + Healer). Is that a joke, ask I? Is that a slap in the face, ask I? That does not happen, ever, whatsoever. Because there is a flaw in the way system works and the way how the content is restrictive to the classes in Neverwinter.
I am a longtime Neverwinter player who plays with a Spell Storm Wizard class. As such I am at a huge disadvantage when it comes around going into any Epic Dungeon with any party.
Even in the test runs there is META play, so unless I play as a Paladin or Devoted Cleric I can say goodbye to the dungeon.
The latest Castle Ravenloft Epic Dungeon needs a Paladin (Healadin if you will), Two Devoted Clerics and a Guardian Fighter to actually have a decent team with decent survivability options in contrast to the speed of beating the given content. This automatically shuts down my Executioner TR friends in party alongside with me as a Spell Storm Wizard. I have to play as a Master of Flame in order to be actually useful in boss fights. Why is this a necessity? Is that equality? No. That being said, that is FOUR support classes.
If I am forced to play a class I do not enjoy just in order to beat the content that is inevitably called - WORKING THE CONTENT. I do not want my FUN TIME to turn into WORK TIME. I do not want to play as a class I do not enjoy playing. Yet, the META demands that and has been demanding it for a long time now.
Thank you, but do not do this anymore as there are classes which are not welcome in the Epic Dungeon queue. Dear developers I URGE YOU to make a SURVEY asking people about how many people actually play the dungeons as their favorite class or whether they are forced into waiting for a DC + OP combo in order to play the game.
This is not diversity, this is exclusivity.
Here, the discussion began talking about support classes and support roles. As I said before, if the CW wanted to play SS in our run we could have adjusted accordingly and still had an awesome run. The below example clearly shows that you can queue for the [3 DPS + 1 Healer + 1 Tank] composition (without an OP) of Random Expert Queue, and complete the content just fine. The above post clearly states that; "The system says 3 DPS and 2 Support (Tank + Healer). Is that a joke, ask I? Is that a slap in the face, ask I? That does not happen, ever, whatsoever", which is obviously false. Again, to simplify this for you... My argument is:
No classes in Neverwinter are excluded from viable group compositions. All classes are welcome in "end-game" party compositions. All classes can contribute to a great, smooth, fast run. Queuing, for a dungeon (even Castle Ravenloft) with 3 DPS + 1 Tank + 1 Healer is entirely possible, and even viable for decent run-times. Some classes even benefit (think CW) by being able to fill multiple roles easily.
Okay so I haven't been able to play NW for some days due to RL stuff.
I got on today and ran a Castle Ravenloft with NO OP , NO x2DC , AND 3DPS Toons
We weren't all high IL either. Also, the last boss bugged at the "Brink of Death". 2 players were stuck in the floor (near the outside) and were killed because they couldn't move into the bubble from the sunsword. We had to finish the boss without the main DPS and only 3 players alive (from about 30% HP) I checked the video. This added roughly 6 minutes to the run time (took 3 extra phases). We STILL MADE A GREAT TIME!
Here is the result:
If your SW was a templock and your CW was a MoF, then yes, you do have the 1 dps, 4 support meta, I'm sorry to say it. Seeing that the next in paingiver was the SW at only a fraction of the damage of the GWF, then I'm inclined to say that it fits the meta.
This discussion was started by the idea that some classes were being excluded, they aren't. I can't make this any more clear for you.
You don't need to scrutinize my post by stating the obvious that 2 of the DPS toons were using loadouts that lean towards support. If I was trying to sneak around with some weird motive and hide that fact, I wouldn't have specifically put the paingiver chart in the screenshot man. I was making the point that you can queue up with 3 DPS + 1 Healer + 1 Tank and finish the "hardest" dungeon in the game. Even more so, you can do it in a half-way decent time. On top of that, I was proving that you don't need x2 DC in one queue, or an OP with AoC, to run a fast smooth run. Do you understand my post a little bit better now?
Additionally, we all have to acknowledge something here. It is actually a great thing that some classes have access to multiple viable build options and loadouts. The CW is the perfect example of this. You can play many different loadouts that are viable for different party compositions. It is actually one of the most versatile classes in the entire game, in my opinion.
I have to stress, the point that you are making is a gross generalisation of the way that end-game parties could be run. You have given us one example, which ironically, is still part of the 1 dps-4 support meta. Even though you were replying to a different argument, your example by itself does not hold up to scrutiny.
Saying that currently all is well because "all classes have equal chances at being included in end game dungeons", in my opinion is detrimental, because it ignores the valid complaints that others have had in being stigmatised due to their class. Having you tell me, and others in this post, that their experience is wrong is a fundamental error in understanding of what is happening to them, not to you.
You have also mentioned that if the CW ran a SS, the run would have been just as awesome. But can you prove this? Would you run a pre-made party with 1 DPS (either a TR/HR/GWF) and 2 other "DPS" such as a fury SW and SS CW? Why don't I see those combinations more often? It is because the understanding of the mechanics of the game make it easier to have to the 1 dps (those that can self-buff the best) and 4 supports. In fact, your example is a case in point for this argument!
I am not misunderstanding you or the current thread. In fact, I am one of those people that experience this exclusion as a CW. I also have DC which gets many more invites than my CW. When I am online on my CW, I get tells to come join parties as a DC! And you are saying that the CW has the most versatility? Out of every 20 Tongs I run as a CW, I probably have only specced as a SS once! And that was when I made the party myself! I am telling you, in my experience, this "the CW is lucky because of class versatility" is not the case. The SS is unwanted in majority of parties, and the MoF is probably the 2nd or 3rd pick as a buffer. Having a "DPS" spec and a debuffing spec in theory sounds great, but it is not what is happening in practice. The "DPS CW" spec is rubbish unless at the ultra-high IL. And still then, another DPS of any of the other desirable DPS classes will outperform it with the same support setup.
Unless you have experienced the same situation, you cannot begin to comprehend what others here who have experienced it are trying to tell you. In fact, telling us about your experience and how other CWs or other maligned classes should feel, reeks of class privilege, of which certain classes will lord it over the others because they prefer the status quo.
Nothing personal @iimrmonkeyii#3625, and with all due respect, this is my view on the matter.
I am not misunderstanding you or the current thread. In fact, I am one of those people that experience this exclusion as a CW. I also have DC which gets many more invites than my CW. When I am online on my CW, I get tells to come join parties as a DC! And you are saying that the CW has the most versatility? Out of every 20 Tongs I run as a CW, I probably have only specced as a SS once! And that was when I made the party myself! I am telling you, in my experience, this "the CW is lucky because of class versatility" is not the case. The SS is unwanted in majority of parties, and the MoF is probably the 2nd or 3rd pick as a buffer. Having a "DPS" spec and a debuffing spec in theory sounds great, but it is not what is happening in practice. The "DPS CW" spec is rubbish unless at the ultra-high IL. And still then, another DPS of any of the other desirable DPS classes will outperform it with the same support setup.
Unless you have experienced the same situation, you cannot begin to comprehend what others here who have experienced it are trying to tell you. In fact, telling us about your experience and how other CWs or other maligned classes should feel, reeks of class privilege, of which certain classes will lord it over the others because they prefer the status quo.
You are proving the point you are trying to disprove. What spec a low geared GWF/TR should use to even get to those 19 Tongs?
Also considering that nowadays, the better dps CW is mostly MoF Opressor and not SS Thaum, it is akin to me specking into WK scoundrel and wonder I don't perform like others do?
Many classes have many issues, but when 2-3 CWs can fit in a cradle run without issues, things could have been considerably worse.
I am not misunderstanding you or the current thread. In fact, I am one of those people that experience this exclusion as a CW. I also have DC which gets many more invites than my CW. When I am online on my CW, I get tells to come join parties as a DC! And you are saying that the CW has the most versatility? Out of every 20 Tongs I run as a CW, I probably have only specced as a SS once! And that was when I made the party myself! I am telling you, in my experience, this "the CW is lucky because of class versatility" is not the case. The SS is unwanted in majority of parties, and the MoF is probably the 2nd or 3rd pick as a buffer. Having a "DPS" spec and a debuffing spec in theory sounds great, but it is not what is happening in practice. The "DPS CW" spec is rubbish unless at the ultra-high IL. And still then, another DPS of any of the other desirable DPS classes will outperform it with the same support setup.
Unless you have experienced the same situation, you cannot begin to comprehend what others here who have experienced it are trying to tell you. In fact, telling us about your experience and how other CWs or other maligned classes should feel, reeks of class privilege, of which certain classes will lord it over the others because they prefer the status quo.
You are proving the point you are trying to disprove. What spec a low geared GWF/TR should use to even get to those 19 Tongs?
Also considering that nowadays, the better dps CW is mostly MoF Opressor and not SS Thaum, it is akin to me specking into WK scoundrel and wonder I don't perform like others do?
Many classes have many issues, but when 2-3 CWs can fit in a cradle run without issues, things could have been considerably worse.
A SS Oppressor CW can excel when there is a MoF CW in the party. The MoF would only add extra debuffs vs SS, but becomes redundant with the secondary MoF. A SS Oppressor with even the nerfed Storm Spell v3.0 would do more damage in this instance. I did not mention Thaum. Thaum is inferior to anything an Oppressor can provide, except perhaps for a few 3rd Tier feats.
My point is that it is rare that a CW is chosen for their DPS, they are chosen for the debuffing with some buffing. They are thus viewed as a "support" class. Therefore, they enter parties as a support and have to contend with other support classes. Thus if not considered DPS, and only considered support, then that is not versatility.
A low geared CW will not get into a party as a DPS. A high geared CW will also most likely not be accepted as DPS versus an equivalent IL GWF/TR.
The CW does not function as their stated role on character creation. Neither does the SW. This is not consistent with the D&D I know.
I am not misunderstanding you or the current thread. In fact, I am one of those people that experience this exclusion as a CW. I also have DC which gets many more invites than my CW. When I am online on my CW, I get tells to come join parties as a DC! And you are saying that the CW has the most versatility? Out of every 20 Tongs I run as a CW, I probably have only specced as a SS once! And that was when I made the party myself! I am telling you, in my experience, this "the CW is lucky because of class versatility" is not the case. The SS is unwanted in majority of parties, and the MoF is probably the 2nd or 3rd pick as a buffer. Having a "DPS" spec and a debuffing spec in theory sounds great, but it is not what is happening in practice. The "DPS CW" spec is rubbish unless at the ultra-high IL. And still then, another DPS of any of the other desirable DPS classes will outperform it with the same support setup.
Unless you have experienced the same situation, you cannot begin to comprehend what others here who have experienced it are trying to tell you. In fact, telling us about your experience and how other CWs or other maligned classes should feel, reeks of class privilege, of which certain classes will lord it over the others because they prefer the status quo.
You are proving the point you are trying to disprove. What spec a low geared GWF/TR should use to even get to those 19 Tongs?
Also considering that nowadays, the better dps CW is mostly MoF Opressor and not SS Thaum, it is akin to me specking into WK scoundrel and wonder I don't perform like others do?
Many classes have many issues, but when 2-3 CWs can fit in a cradle run without issues, things could have been considerably worse.
A SS Oppressor CW can excel when there is a MoF CW in the party. The MoF would only add extra debuffs vs SS, but becomes redundant with the secondary MoF. A SS Oppressor with even the nerfed Storm Spell v3.0 would do more damage in this instance.
I've said something else. What spec you go as primary DPS, assuming no other CW in party?
My point is that it is rare that a CW is chosen for their DPS, they are chosen for the debuffing with some buffing. They are thus viewed as a "support" class. Therefore, they enter parties as a support and have to contend with other support classes. Thus if not considered DPS, and only considered support, then that is not versatility.
A low geared CW will not get into a party as a DPS. A high geared CW will also most likely not be accepted as DPS versus an equivalent IL GWF/TR.
The CW does not function as their state role on character creation. Neither does the SW. This is not consistent with the D&D I know.
A low geared nothing will be accepted as DPS, unless it's friends / guild. So lets get that out of the way. Like a low geared GWF or TR can go anywhere. While CW can go 'I'm debuff' while not playing a MoF a day in their lives and have it as a valid excuse for doing whatever they do.
What is that chosen? DPS nowdays either very skilled or make their parties. There are DPSs dime, a dozen. If you want to go as DPS you either make a party, or people know that you can perform.
When you play with friends anything goes, but out there, you can show that CW can do fine (and some can, there are enough of those that did/do, from one phasing orcus, to matching GWF, to running primary DPS in the rest of the content) Or you can show that they don't. Let me ask that, why would anyone take a CW that stuck to 'control' where there is nothing important to control, deals almost no damage and does almost nothing for the party. You can take it once, but will you take it twice? (again friends and guild aside, those are welcome but for their company, no matter their spec)
You(not specifically you) stick to some outdated spec, but then you need to understand that not only it hurts your chances to be viable but also puts the class in a 'great' image. You want to stick to the D&D role that someone wrote 5 years ago in a wiki, or 14 mods of balance changes ago, sure, but then why are you surprised that your horse and carriage can't keep up with the rest on the highway.
CW 'image' was hurt by the lack of correct interaction with bloody course. People who just find it easy to go as debuffer instead of gearing as DPS, which is time consuming / expensive, and outdated specs and lightning.
Do I think that there is room to improve class balance, DPS SW, DPS CW, sure, especially clearer paths, like it used to be, SS for damage, MoF for debuff, and not this mess (IMO). But lets not forget that there is a lot of reasons why things are how they are, and some of those reasons are on some of the CWs, that rather change everything except that one thing that needs updating to be viable. Themselves (yes as dps).
lol) walls of text. here is a bit more) as I see a problem is in group it self. there is 3 role, tank, heal, dps. meta looks like 1 tank, 1 heal, 3 dps. ? what this mean to balance? you need to have strong tanks, strong heals and "random" dps. hard to balance because of those dps))) they pull wrong mobs, running too quick and they die quick too))) 6 ppl group will work better because you get more balanced group of 2 tanks, 2 heals, 2 dps. also 6 ppl group will open more ways to play content and get good group for run. all classes and roles will be welcome. I see good and balanced group as OP and GF (main tanks) GF or GWF can play off tank role. 2 DC or OP heal + DC ( heals and (de)buffs). 1 melee dps and 1 mage.
I think it`s a big question, who is support?))) as happy OP and GF user, I can say that those 3 dps in todays meta are support for me and DC
also I never understand ppl that cry because of no challenge) lol make blue geared char with green/blue pets, no boons and low lvl gems, something around 9k+ IL, then go to epic with random group. you`ll get all sorts of challenges there)
A low geared nothing will be accepted as DPS, unless it's friends / guild. So lets get that out of the way. Like a low geared GWF or TR can go anywhere. While CW can go 'I'm debuff' while not playing a MoF a day in their lives and have it as a valid excuse for doing whatever they do.
What is that chosen? DPS nowdays either very skilled or make their parties. There are DPSs dime, a dozen. If you want to go as DPS you either make a party, or people know that you can perform.
When you play with friends anything goes, but out there, you can show that CW can do fine (and some can, there are enough of those that did/do, from one phasing orcus, to matching GWF, to running primary DPS in the rest of the content) Or you can show that they don't. Let me ask that, why would anyone take a CW that stuck to 'control' where there is nothing important to control, deals almost no damage and does almost nothing for the party. You can take it once, but will you take it twice? (again friends and guild aside, those are welcome but for their company, no matter their spec)
You(not specifically you) stick to some outdated spec, but then you need to understand that not only it hurts your chances to be viable but also puts the class in a 'great' image. You want to stick to the D&D role that someone wrote 5 years ago in a wiki, or 14 mods of balance changes ago, sure, but then why are you surprised that your horse and carriage can't keep up with the rest on the highway.
CW 'image' was hurt by the lack of correct interaction with bloody course. People who just find it easy to go as debuffer instead of gearing as DPS, which is time consuming / expensive, and outdated specs and lightning.
Do I think that there is room to improve class balance, DPS SW, DPS CW, sure, especially clearer paths, like it used to be, SS for damage, MoF for debuff, and not this mess (IMO). But lets not forget that there is a lot of reasons why things are how they are, and some of those reasons are on some of the CWs, that rather change everything except that one thing that needs updating to be viable. Themselves (yes as dps).
We agree on that note. A low geared anything will not be accepted into any party, unless a party is desperate for a DC or tank.
I (and not specifically I) do not stick to some outdated spec. I, have changed my spec to what the game deems the best, even though that is not what I signed up as a Control Wizard to be! But when I have faced discrimination playing a certain build, and then changing it to suit the times, but then get discriminated against that as well, what am I to do?
Only run with people you know is sound advice, but what about new players that choose the CW who don't yet have a large friends list or may not be in a populous alliance? They looked at character creation and thought, "Hey, a wizard! I know a bit about them from playing D&D, they are squishy, but they can deal a lot of damage from a distance! Control hey! Well, that would be useful for adds!". Then they get to end-game, and yes while their character is squishy, they really do more damage up close! There is NO control, and they don't get invited to parties as DPS! What a scam! How misleading.
Yes, the only thing the player is to change for themselves, is their whole class! So yes, perhaps I am holding onto an outdated image of the "Control Wizard" in this "D&D" game. And people (and not specifically you) who tell me, it is fine, just change yourself! Is very, very condescending.
Then they get to end-game, and yes while their character is squishy, they really do more damage up close! There is NO control, and they don't get invited to parties as DPS! What a scam! How misleading. > > Yes, the only thing the player is to change for themselves, is their whole class! So yes, perhaps I am holding onto an outdated image of the "Control Wizard" in this "D&D" game.
Yes, it is missleading. But CW is NOT the only class affected by this. I picked Cleric because I wanted to be an awesom healer. Imagine my disappointment when I reached end game found that even a tank does this better, and a paladin no less. Traditional D&D roles obveously went out of the window a long time ago.
Tbh I think this is the root of the problem, and I can see why people get annoyed after investing so much time into a character and possibly money. This could have been avoided if the class descriptions and perceptions were accurate.
One would assume that if you wanted a class that does x (ranged dps for example) if the CW description was more supporty a player would either - A. Pick another class (Because you really just want to be a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ranged dps) B. Accept the more supporty fate (It's cool, you knew how this would be from the start and you were prepared to compromise )
I chose B as the only other class I really like is ranger and my group of friends already has one. But I totally see why the shock at end game is so overwhelmingly frustrating when you started out expecting the class to be very different to how it really is played now and you have invested so much already.
I didn't really want to be a buff/debuff machine, I wanted to be the one making sure everyone stays standing. I mean, you say Cleric to any mmo veteran and it's heals that comes to mind first, right? It's not just CWs that are disappointed with this.
Yes, I can get in to groups, but I'm in the same position as you guys, if I don't play the meta build (which idealy I wouldn't have to as I'd be healing) there'd be no invites for me either. It's the same for some OPs I know, they have to play a spec they dont want to just to get in a run. Yes OP and DC is asked for, but it's still not the classes they are really asking for it's the builds which leaves some of us in the same boat as you dps, playing specs we would prefer not to too.
Post edited by nhari#2845 on
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
A low geared nothing will be accepted as DPS, unless it's friends / guild. So lets get that out of the way. Like a low geared GWF or TR can go anywhere. While CW can go 'I'm debuff' while not playing a MoF a day in their lives and have it as a valid excuse for doing whatever they do.
What is that chosen? DPS nowdays either very skilled or make their parties. There are DPSs dime, a dozen. If you want to go as DPS you either make a party, or people know that you can perform.
When you play with friends anything goes, but out there, you can show that CW can do fine (and some can, there are enough of those that did/do, from one phasing orcus, to matching GWF, to running primary DPS in the rest of the content) Or you can show that they don't. Let me ask that, why would anyone take a CW that stuck to 'control' where there is nothing important to control, deals almost no damage and does almost nothing for the party. You can take it once, but will you take it twice? (again friends and guild aside, those are welcome but for their company, no matter their spec)
You(not specifically you) stick to some outdated spec, but then you need to understand that not only it hurts your chances to be viable but also puts the class in a 'great' image. You want to stick to the D&D role that someone wrote 5 years ago in a wiki, or 14 mods of balance changes ago, sure, but then why are you surprised that your horse and carriage can't keep up with the rest on the highway.
CW 'image' was hurt by the lack of correct interaction with bloody course. People who just find it easy to go as debuffer instead of gearing as DPS, which is time consuming / expensive, and outdated specs and lightning.
Do I think that there is room to improve class balance, DPS SW, DPS CW, sure, especially clearer paths, like it used to be, SS for damage, MoF for debuff, and not this mess (IMO). But lets not forget that there is a lot of reasons why things are how they are, and some of those reasons are on some of the CWs, that rather change everything except that one thing that needs updating to be viable. Themselves (yes as dps).
We agree on that note. A low geared anything will not be accepted into any party, unless a party is desperate for a DC or tank.
I (and not specifically I) do not stick to some outdated spec. I, have changed my spec to what the game deems the best, even though that is not what I signed up as a Control Wizard to be! But when I have faced discrimination playing a certain build, and then changing it to suit the times, but then get discriminated against that as well, what am I to do?
Only run with people you know is sound advice, but what about new players that choose the CW who don't yet have a large friends list or may not be in a populous alliance? They looked at character creation and thought, "Hey, a wizard! I know a bit about them from playing D&D, they are squishy, but they can deal a lot of damage from a distance! Control hey! Well, that would be useful for adds!". Then they get to end-game, and yes while their character is squishy, they really do more damage up close! There is NO control, and they don't get invited to parties as DPS! What a scam! How misleading.
Yes, the only thing the player is to change for themselves, is their whole class! So yes, perhaps I am holding onto an outdated image of the "Control Wizard" in this "D&D" game. And people (and not specifically you) who tell me, it is fine, just change yourself! Is very, very condescending.
And what you are asking for then? To be invited to parties ? No one gets just invited to parties, either you are known, or you make your own. Look at the channels, all see all the variants, "16.5k TR looking for cradle Exp" or "17k GWF looking For Tomb" Those that know how life works, you see them forming the parties, or those that being around longer, run with friends (guild, private custom channels, etc..) That's DPS life. Maybe you got used to CW being king of the hill DC style, but it is all about impressions, take a moment and look at this thread again, and what asked in it, and if people who stick to control now help CW image..
Consider that if you make a group, and it manages fine, then the next time it will be easier and easier, and people will accept CW more and more. But still I think you have skewed concept of how groups are formed. There is no one to invite DPS, because the DPS spot is taken by the person who makes the group. DC/OP,etc.. don't need to form groups, they can just /unhide and they will get one.
Cryptic at fault of many things, but human nature is, well, I'll say fortunately not in their hands. As I've paid, the lazy way out with ungeared MoF, broken bloody death, and outdated specs created a bad impression of CW. It's up to good CWs to change it, a party at a time.
And before you tell me that I don't know how it goes, and fells, I know actually better, because when the parties were 4CWs, PvE TRs sat in the corner, today, for better or worse, there are no unique spots, and you compete the same way as many others for the same one. Took almost a year of making a guide, showing how it can be done, and before any Dev changes TR was more acceptable.
If you want damage buff, perhaps it is warranted, perhaps it's not, but I don't have objection if things taken into account properly. I saw too few CW with current spec and equivalent gear to judge, those I saw some do well, some very well, others less, but mostly I don't DPS race. But lets say a buff is warranted, lets just not buff DPS as compared to someone running outdated control spec. Things should be back to logical separation, SS dps, MoF debuff. And why not make concrete threads with specific requests and issues of the paths. Some ACT and explanations.
I'm not sure what you ask for, is it "Hey, a wizard! I know a bit about them from playing D&D, they are squishy, but they can deal a lot of damage from a distance" Or is it "control" Because the last time CW could do both, it was 4CW parties. And sorry for my lack of sympathy, but I'll rather not see that happen again.
If you want control slot for dungeons, sure, I'm all for varied content, and varied mechanics and class utilization, but please remember that CW is not the only control capable class, and shouldn't be. It will not be an exclusive slot for CW and it shouldn't. Remember that this is 3 viable specs, dps, control, debuff, when other classes have only one, and it will be fair that they will be adapted too, I don't think that the competition will lessen as much as you hope.
Comments
But it´s not that you have to force anyone, since every player who wants to get acces to actual content is forced to either build a group himelf 24/7 or just stay out, if he doesn´t have 4 buffer at hand who are willing to join.
80% player in this game are forced to run supporter or stay and pray all day and that´s not what a game should be like.
They started in i guess mod 7 or 8 to balance classes, adjust buffs and fix bugs... but somehow they forgot about their plans and stopped going on.
I think I said this allreday 4 years ago, no class should buff another classes dps x2-3 and actually mitigation tools are overbuffed same way.
Content is following those max-buff-setups and devs do not show up with healthy solutions so far, they implement dungeons where those buffs are essential to some degree.
To each their own of course, but I guess my argument is that plenty of MMOs are super meta-gamey, does this one really need to be too? If so, I'm not mad, I'm just disappointed. It wasn't always so, it doesn't seem like it needs (or needed) to become so. I do have to strongly disagree with this argument. That is just pure defeatism. Following that train of logic, the devs shouldn't bother to do anything because something else will just always go wrong. Sure, there may always be a "meta", but how much gravity that meta has can vary dramatically. Right now, we are being devoured by a "4 support" meta black hole. The gravity is so strong that everything else is being destroyed or flung out into deep space. We can absolutely have a healthier balance of options where none (or very few) are left out in the cold. Even if some new, more minor meta develops, it doesn't have to be so overwhelmingly strong as to shut out half the characters in the game. Currently, the misbalance between what people HAVE to play (support) vs. what people WANT to play (DPS) is the largest obstacle to that goal.
"Following that train of logic, the devs shouldn't bother to do anything because something else will just always go wrong".
Again, there is nothing wrong with a meta in my opinion. The actual thing that we are referring to here is called a "meta game". One example of this is to use external resources to influence a game [like a spreadsheet, or graph, or formula, etc]. I believe there are some people out there who will always do just that, and then share it with the community. People like me appreciate that and try to contribute what we can [very little lol]. The devs can adjust the game, and they should when necessary.
Like I said, the main reason I came here to post was because people were suggesting making the content easier so that it isn't "necessary" to run 4 supports. It isn't necessary for 4 supports, end of story. That just makes the run smoother and faster, at the moment. I am perfectly fine with the devs nerfing the DC/OP in some way [if enough players actually want that], even though I have a DC that I love playing. I just hope two other things don't happen...
1.) The "end game" content shouldn't get easier. Definitely not so much that you can (as was suggested somewhere) run it with 5 13K DPS players. No thank you to that!
2.) Hopefully whatever fix they make doesn't make OPs or DCs useless. Regarding powersharing, buffing, and debuffing if they [OP/DC] fall behind (bringing a DPS instead) they will probably only get invites to groups who are wiping and need help staying alive. The rest will probably invite a GF instead, since they can tank and offer better personal damage. Who knows, maybe even that will change without a strong buff window. I am cool with whatever specific combination becomes the ideal, even if I have to make a new class to respond (would rather not though lol).
Other than that I am fine with pretty much any balancing change that doesn't make the end game trivial. If we could do all content with 5 under-geared DPS, Neverwinter would honestly feel like a glorified version of the game Castle Crashers
To be clear on my end as well, I fully agree with both of your numbered points. I think it's important that EVERYONE has a place in dungeons. That's really the whole point, but right now, that's not happening. Supports shouldn't be fed to the wolves either. We need to find a balance between what everyone brings to the table so that the original design intent of 1 tank, 1 healer, and 3 DPS can become the desirable norm again. That also includes making each class competitive within each role as well.
I will edit this post (if I can after few days). Thank you for waiting and terribly sorry.
I got on today and ran a Castle Ravenloft with NO OP , NO x2DC , AND 3DPS Toons
We weren't all high IL either. Also, the last boss bugged at the "Brink of Death". 2 players were stuck in the floor (near the outside) and were killed because they couldn't move into the bubble from the sunsword. We had to finish the boss without the main DPS and only 3 players alive (from about 30% HP) I checked the video. This added roughly 6 minutes to the run time (took 3 extra phases). We STILL MADE A GREAT TIME!
Here is the result:
Now I'll share mine. The last time I finished CR, it was 2xDC, 1xOP, 1xTR and 1xSW (Templock) so pretty close to the meta. We finished it in 62 minutes. But, we were also not on voice comms coordinating all our buffs. Actually, I think the fastest I have ever finished CR was around 50 minutes. I have never seen anything like what you showed in the video.
I think one reason why a lot of people say "4xSupport 1xDPS is NEEDED" is because the content is hard enough, that in uncoordinated teams, these teams need a larger quantity of buffs flying around so that, at any given moment, there are just enough buffs active for long enough for the team to complete the content. So, take away one of the support characters, and the team loses enough buffs that the content becomes not simply "longer", but just not completable anymore.
Other than that, very nice. However I wouldn't call 17K "non high" level. That's 4.000 more IL than what is the minimum level to enter.
Although you could argue that Warlock was carrying the pt and DC was still there to power-share. No matter how you look at it you still need that power-share.
This is why people will still call others to join them and others will be DCs and OPS, recently tact GFs. That's just how it is.
I have a funny situation not that long ago... One kid asked me "hey we need a mof in tong, are you available pls" and I wrote that "I'm not a mof" only to receive "Oh, nothing then"
Just imagine what value the META has in young people's minds, for them that is the quintessential stuff. I've read so many times "we didn't finish CR because we didn't have enough DPS" instead of "We got tired with Sister's HP pool, lost concentration and eventually gave up or lost the will to play since we've no 20K IL GWF on our side"
The point is - at the end of the day you can end up with 250.000 - 300.000 power on your char in dungeons with 4 support chars. How is that WAI I will never understand.
The other ILs were:
GWF = 15K
GF = 15K
CW = 14K (14.7)
I'm sorry @c1k4ml3kc3 but no... That SW is reaaaally good though! The run could have even been faster if I was DPS DO. However, the run might have been a little less "smooth" without the added perks of having an AC. The primary thing to realize here buddy is, you only get 200-300K Power (as you say) from my DC when all things are going well (BoB and AA before companion's gift or the refresh point). This simply doesn't happen 100% of the time, and when it doesn't, a DPS DO will speed up the run much better. You can fact check that with some resources, they are out there. I don't have much time for this post though. I'm sorry dude but again, no. When built and coordinated correctly, most of the time, a Conq GF (full DPS) is much better for run speed. The reality is that "good" players already build their supports like DPS. That's why players like me are asking to not have the content be made any more trivial. IT IS ALREADY IN A GOOD SPOT! However, you have to spend the time to learn your class, play it correctly, and work well with your team. You do these things, and you will have no problem running any content, I promise. So why not build your Spellstorm CW so that you can be effective (if you are saying people don't desire it)? People will notice. That way people will invite you to come be full DPS for their run. I get to play my CW as SS sometimes, why can't you? SS is great for DPS. If you play or build it incorrectly though, you are going to spend an hour in Castle Ravenloft, or more. THAT IS GOOD. That is absolutely false dude, again I'm sorry, but it is a fact. My GWF was 15K. He did excellent. My CW was 14K. She did excellent. You don't need high IL OR 4 supports to clear Castle Ravenloft quickly and smoothly. If we can do it, you can too. Don't try to argue that it is difficult, because it is not. I know I sound disrespectful, but I am trying really hard to type this clearly, and without any disrespect. I mean you no disrespect, I hope you understand that fully. If people are not playing correctly, they will struggle their butt off (and maybe even fail) in the hardest content of the game. HOW is that a BAD thing? That is how it is supposed to be. I'm sorry buddy but again, that is just wrong. I have only consistently seen 300K power on the TRs I play with (because they buff their own power too). You can't make the hardest content in this game able to be completed with 5 13K DPS players. That would ruin any challenge that is left.
It's because the number becomes so big, it overflows the memory space it has assigned to it. Based on when this happens, I'd guess they are using a signed 32-bit integer variable, which runs out at 2,147,483,647. The service recording the number is treating it as an unsigned int, but it's being read as a signed int. Hence the negative (signed int treats first bit as +/- indicator).
For giggles, if you see a negative number, treat it as positive and add 2,147,482,648 to get the true paingiver number.
Anyway, I even more like that you believe that power sharing is not a problem. Even if you manage to share 100K of power that is a major increase in damage. Give one OP in the combo, some Fey here and there, aura of courage and you've got yourself a deadly party that can vanquish any content with much ease. The underlying problem is the power sharing.
You're arguing semantics and skipping the major problem. GF is still devised as a TANK class, meaning Support., even if you build him as a DPS oriented. Yes, people chose them for the sake of DPS. Point is - they chose the GF. That's all there is to it. Acknowledge that. There is no "good spot" if you can achieve 300K power by utilizing power sharing. Don't talk nonsense. This is about class balance in the Epic Dungeons, not about how you personally feel about the content. Again, you as well as some of the guys before who stated, if you want a more challenging content you might as well get a "challenge card" that will allow some of you to run spicy runs if that's what you enjoy. The rest of the folk shouldn't be punished by not being able to visit the content itself just because
A) they do not feel strongly about using power sharing, that's highly effective even on the lowest of OP/DC combos alike.
It's like in ancient times, you're on the throne of DPS and others carry you around through the dungeon, and then you feel important and elite. Lol what a joke, that's noskiller right there. Anyone's a superman with 100k+ power and can hit like a bull with (de)buffs. Let's not go into how people lack skill to play.
You take ENJOYMENT as a major motive in your talk. What about other people's enjoyment? Don't be so selfish into thinking that the game content needs to be available only to select few and the rest to play after a year or so...
I like how you think that there's a problem with my CW.
For this one I'm going to refer to you as BUDDY.
Dear BUDDY, the META itself governs which class is desirable. For a long time now it was a MOF CW playing as a Renegade. Oppressor CWs and Thaumaturge CWs are at a disadvantage party-wise.
The build I'm playing is perfectly fine to run any content, but this is not about my personal runs in the dungeons themselves. You're making the same error like people before you who do not want to accept a few simple truths about the Epic Dungeon problematics in terms of the Class Balance.
Please remember : It is not about beating the content with the meta premade team. It is about not being able to do so without necessarily bringing in a TANK/HEALER combo who are, btw, also the major buffers in the party. They are a multirole. They are a SUPERCLASS and go well hand in hand with eachother, thus reducing the possibility and plausibility for any other class to be a part of the team. If this is seriously so hard to understand and read a few posts above then I'm speechless and I won't be talking anymore regarding it since you're completely skipping the real issue at hand, quite possibly because you do not consider it an issue at all.
THANKFULLY, you're not correct since the power sharing is simply way too effective for its own good and the good of the game itself.
The pressing issue is that people are being forced into playing a support role whether they want it or not just for the sake of beating the content. BUDDY, do the same thing without the DC. Then come back and maybe you will realize what the problem actually is. Sincerely, your OTHER BUDDY.
Eh... Irrelevant completely, but thanks for trying BUDDY.
I don't know what to tell you. The "needing" a "meta" is just a perception, not a reality. That isn't something that the devs can address. My point here stands, you don't need some meta group to complete CoDG/ToNG/CR. I will say again, you don't need a meta team for the hardest content in this game, end of story. Here is one more example, today (just for fun) we did ToNG with NO TANK. You say "TANK/HEALER" combo is so important. Then how did we finish ToNG in 19 minutes with no tank? It was a super easy run too... We weren't even speeding through this. We were just hanging out in discord, messing around, and telling jokes. I understand that this is an example with 1 DPS, but we had NO TANK, come on....ToNG should be IMPOSSIBLE without a tank. It is an "end-game" epic dungeon.
Please devs if you are checking in here, don't take away the only dungeon (Castle Ravenloft) that is remotely challenging by making it easily completed by everyone, and every combination of classes. There are plenty of dungeons at different tiers of difficulties, appropriate for different players (at different levels of progression). You have done a good job at that so far. Right now, to some degree, there is content for everyone. Please don't take away the one piece of content that is challenging and fun, for some players.
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More seriously, 1.) change buffs to add instead of multiply, and 2.) add (normal) version of all the later (master) dungeons and trials with reduced rewards so people can actually learn how to do them and more than 5-10% of the playerbase gets to experience the content AT ALL.
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Also, @iimrmonkeyii#3625 , your posting style of every other thing being bold or italic is stressful to read.
Apparently they are just going to cap the paingiver damage with the upcoming patch.
I don't have a problem with those suggestions. Making buffs additive [the way debuffs are right now] isn't really a bad idea.
I just hope that the DPS people understand that runs will take longer (which is fine), and DPS players will have more competition (because their DPS potential will be even more related to "clear-speed" than now). People will be more inclined to run with DPS they know are really good, and/or "LFM DPS 17K+" will become even more common.
Your #2 point is excellent. Great idea! I also hope that (in the future) we can get more than one dungeon or trial with a module release. After players finish their campaigns and toons there really isn't much to do. You can run one dungeon or trial (to sell stuff on the AH) and jump around in PE on your mount. lol (I think some people can relate to that last part)
I think adding more dungeons overall, would be very much appreciated. I just hope that too much time isn't spent on specific adjustments to classes or items (because we all know how that has played out most times) lol. Balancing classes themselves is such a complex task. I have to say that Cryptic has done an excellent job at one specific thing. I greatly enjoy the fact that every class is currently welcome in groups. There isn't a single class in the game that can't be useful to a group. I think we are at least in decent shape. Adding more content for people at "end-game" (or close to it) really is something that is currently, very important.
If Cryptic brought back those old dungeons at different difficulty levels (some like EToS and some like CR) people would be so thankful. If they made that same amount of dungeons (new ones) and spread them out like that it would be just as awesome.
@vordayn I'm sorry if that was misunderstood. The purpose of that post was to respond to comments like this one below. I was just pointing out that no classes are "left out" at the moment. You can play any class you want in Neverwinter (currently) and have no trouble finding groups. If you are good at your class, you will actually be forced to set your social preference to "invisible" to avoid having to respond to all the PMs, or being rude by not replying, while you are not looking for runs.
You cannot change the parameters of your argument and say that I misunderstood you.
Now please, understand me this time. These are the points (from the beginning of the discussion, and along with the others throughout [which I am not going to spend time quoting]) that I am responding to. Here, the discussion began talking about support classes and support roles. As I said before, if the CW wanted to play SS in our run we could have adjusted accordingly and still had an awesome run. The below example clearly shows that you can queue for the [3 DPS + 1 Healer + 1 Tank] composition (without an OP) of Random Expert Queue, and complete the content just fine. The above post clearly states that; "The system says 3 DPS and 2 Support (Tank + Healer). Is that a joke, ask I? Is that a slap in the face, ask I? That does not happen, ever, whatsoever", which is obviously false. Again, to simplify this for you... My argument is:
No classes in Neverwinter are excluded from viable group compositions. All classes are welcome in "end-game" party compositions. All classes can contribute to a great, smooth, fast run. Queuing, for a dungeon (even Castle Ravenloft) with 3 DPS + 1 Tank + 1 Healer is entirely possible, and even viable for decent run-times. Some classes even benefit (think CW) by being able to fill multiple roles easily.
This discussion was started by the idea that some classes were being excluded, they aren't. I can't make this any more clear for you.
You don't need to scrutinize my post by stating the obvious that 2 of the DPS toons were using loadouts that lean towards support. If I was trying to sneak around with some weird motive and hide that fact, I wouldn't have specifically put the paingiver chart in the screenshot man. I was making the point that you can queue up with 3 DPS + 1 Healer + 1 Tank and finish the "hardest" dungeon in the game. Even more so, you can do it in a half-way decent time. On top of that, I was proving that you don't need x2 DC in one queue, or an OP with AoC, to run a fast smooth run. Do you understand my post a little bit better now?
Additionally, we all have to acknowledge something here. It is actually a great thing that some classes have access to multiple viable build options and loadouts. The CW is the perfect example of this. You can play many different loadouts that are viable for different party compositions. It is actually one of the most versatile classes in the entire game, in my opinion.
Express my opinion that (because this is player feedback):
1.) The content shouldn't get any easier.
2.) Classes are pretty well balanced, and no classes are excluded.
3.) Hoping that devs will focus on creating more challenging content that has better rewards, rather than more huge class changes.
4.) The content at the moment is easily completed with a huge variety of compositions.
5.) The need for x2 DC + OP + GF in every group is a perception, not a reality (that doesn't mean that it isn't good).
6.) I am fine with buff/debuff/power share interactions being toned down. That would make the content much more challenging.
7.) I hope that one day there will be some content that forces a group to optimize, coordinate, and push through trial and error for a single successful attempt.
Saying that currently all is well because "all classes have equal chances at being included in end game dungeons", in my opinion is detrimental, because it ignores the valid complaints that others have had in being stigmatised due to their class. Having you tell me, and others in this post, that their experience is wrong is a fundamental error in understanding of what is happening to them, not to you.
You have also mentioned that if the CW ran a SS, the run would have been just as awesome. But can you prove this? Would you run a pre-made party with 1 DPS (either a TR/HR/GWF) and 2 other "DPS" such as a fury SW and SS CW? Why don't I see those combinations more often? It is because the understanding of the mechanics of the game make it easier to have to the 1 dps (those that can self-buff the best) and 4 supports. In fact, your example is a case in point for this argument!
I am not misunderstanding you or the current thread. In fact, I am one of those people that experience this exclusion as a CW. I also have DC which gets many more invites than my CW. When I am online on my CW, I get tells to come join parties as a DC! And you are saying that the CW has the most versatility? Out of every 20 Tongs I run as a CW, I probably have only specced as a SS once! And that was when I made the party myself! I am telling you, in my experience, this "the CW is lucky because of class versatility" is not the case. The SS is unwanted in majority of parties, and the MoF is probably the 2nd or 3rd pick as a buffer. Having a "DPS" spec and a debuffing spec in theory sounds great, but it is not what is happening in practice. The "DPS CW" spec is rubbish unless at the ultra-high IL. And still then, another DPS of any of the other desirable DPS classes will outperform it with the same support setup.
Unless you have experienced the same situation, you cannot begin to comprehend what others here who have experienced it are trying to tell you. In fact, telling us about your experience and how other CWs or other maligned classes should feel, reeks of class privilege, of which certain classes will lord it over the others because they prefer the status quo.
Nothing personal @iimrmonkeyii#3625, and with all due respect, this is my view on the matter.
Also considering that nowadays, the better dps CW is mostly MoF Opressor and not SS Thaum, it is akin to me specking into WK scoundrel and wonder I don't perform like others do?
Many classes have many issues, but when 2-3 CWs can fit in a cradle run without issues, things could have been considerably worse.
My point is that it is rare that a CW is chosen for their DPS, they are chosen for the debuffing with some buffing. They are thus viewed as a "support" class. Therefore, they enter parties as a support and have to contend with other support classes. Thus if not considered DPS, and only considered support, then that is not versatility.
A low geared CW will not get into a party as a DPS. A high geared CW will also most likely not be accepted as DPS versus an equivalent IL GWF/TR.
The CW does not function as their stated role on character creation. Neither does the SW. This is not consistent with the D&D I know.
A low geared nothing will be accepted as DPS, unless it's friends / guild. So lets get that out of the way. Like a low geared GWF or TR can go anywhere. While CW can go 'I'm debuff' while not playing a MoF a day in their lives and have it as a valid excuse for doing whatever they do.
What is that chosen? DPS nowdays either very skilled or make their parties. There are DPSs dime, a dozen. If you want to go as DPS you either make a party, or people know that you can perform.
When you play with friends anything goes, but out there, you can show that CW can do fine (and some can, there are enough of those that did/do, from one phasing orcus, to matching GWF, to running primary DPS in the rest of the content)
Or you can show that they don't. Let me ask that, why would anyone take a CW that stuck to 'control' where there is nothing important to control, deals almost no damage and does almost nothing for the party. You can take it once, but will you take it twice? (again friends and guild aside, those are welcome but for their company, no matter their spec)
You(not specifically you) stick to some outdated spec, but then you need to understand that not only it hurts your chances to be viable but also puts the class in a 'great' image. You want to stick to the D&D role that someone wrote 5 years ago in a wiki, or 14 mods of balance changes ago, sure, but then why are you surprised that your horse and carriage can't keep up with the rest on the highway.
CW 'image' was hurt by the lack of correct interaction with bloody course. People who just find it easy to go as debuffer instead of gearing as DPS, which is time consuming / expensive, and outdated specs and lightning.
Do I think that there is room to improve class balance, DPS SW, DPS CW, sure, especially clearer paths, like it used to be, SS for damage, MoF for debuff, and not this mess (IMO). But lets not forget that there is a lot of reasons why things are how they are, and some of those reasons are on some of the CWs, that rather change everything except that one thing that needs updating to be viable. Themselves (yes as dps).
as I see a problem is in group it self. there is 3 role, tank, heal, dps. meta looks like 1 tank, 1 heal, 3 dps. ? what this mean to balance? you need to have strong tanks, strong heals and "random" dps. hard to balance because of those dps))) they pull wrong mobs, running too quick and they die quick too))) 6 ppl group will work better because you get more balanced group of 2 tanks, 2 heals, 2 dps. also 6 ppl group will open more ways to play content and get good group for run. all classes and roles will be welcome. I see good and balanced group as OP and GF (main tanks) GF or GWF can play off tank role. 2 DC or OP heal + DC ( heals and (de)buffs). 1 melee dps and 1 mage.
I think it`s a big question, who is support?))) as happy OP and GF user, I can say that those 3 dps in todays meta are support for me and DC
also I never understand ppl that cry because of no challenge) lol make blue geared char with green/blue pets, no boons and low lvl gems, something around 9k+ IL, then go to epic with random group. you`ll get all sorts of challenges there)
I (and not specifically I) do not stick to some outdated spec. I, have changed my spec to what the game deems the best, even though that is not what I signed up as a Control Wizard to be! But when I have faced discrimination playing a certain build, and then changing it to suit the times, but then get discriminated against that as well, what am I to do?
Only run with people you know is sound advice, but what about new players that choose the CW who don't yet have a large friends list or may not be in a populous alliance? They looked at character creation and thought, "Hey, a wizard! I know a bit about them from playing D&D, they are squishy, but they can deal a lot of damage from a distance! Control hey! Well, that would be useful for adds!". Then they get to end-game, and yes while their character is squishy, they really do more damage up close! There is NO control, and they don't get invited to parties as DPS! What a scam! How misleading.
Yes, the only thing the player is to change for themselves, is their whole class! So yes, perhaps I am holding onto an outdated image of the "Control Wizard" in this "D&D" game. And people (and not specifically you) who tell me, it is fine, just change yourself! Is very, very condescending.
Then they get to end-game, and yes while their character is squishy, they really do more damage up close! There is NO control, and they don't get invited to parties as DPS! What a scam! How misleading.
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> Yes, the only thing the player is to change for themselves, is their whole class! So yes, perhaps I am holding onto an outdated image of the "Control Wizard" in this "D&D" game.
Yes, it is missleading. But CW is NOT the only class affected by this.
I picked Cleric because I wanted to be an awesom healer. Imagine my disappointment when I reached end game found that even a tank does this better, and a paladin no less.
Traditional D&D roles obveously went out of the window a long time ago.
Tbh I think this is the root of the problem, and I can see why people get annoyed after investing so much time into a character and possibly money.
This could have been avoided if the class descriptions and perceptions were accurate.
One would assume that if you wanted a class that does x (ranged dps for example) if the CW description was more supporty a player would either -
A. Pick another class (Because you really just want to be a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> ranged dps)
B. Accept the more supporty fate (It's cool, you knew how this would be from the start and you were prepared to compromise )
I chose B as the only other class I really like is ranger and my group of friends already has one. But I totally see why the shock at end game is so overwhelmingly frustrating when you started out expecting the class to be very different to how it really is played now and you have invested so much already.
I didn't really want to be a buff/debuff machine, I wanted to be the one making sure everyone stays standing. I mean, you say Cleric to any mmo veteran and it's heals that comes to mind first, right? It's not just CWs that are disappointed with this.
Yes, I can get in to groups, but I'm in the same position as you guys, if I don't play the meta build (which idealy I wouldn't have to as I'd be healing) there'd be no invites for me either.
It's the same for some OPs I know, they have to play a spec they dont want to just to get in a run.
Yes OP and DC is asked for, but it's still not the classes they are really asking for it's the builds which leaves some of us in the same boat as you dps, playing specs we would prefer not to too.
Those that know how life works, you see them forming the parties, or those that being around longer, run with friends (guild, private custom channels, etc..)
That's DPS life. Maybe you got used to CW being king of the hill DC style, but it is all about impressions, take a moment and look at this thread again, and what asked in it, and if people who stick to control now help CW image..
Consider that if you make a group, and it manages fine, then the next time it will be easier and easier, and people will accept CW more and more. But still I think you have skewed concept of how groups are formed.
There is no one to invite DPS, because the DPS spot is taken by the person who makes the group. DC/OP,etc.. don't need to form groups, they can just /unhide and they will get one.
Cryptic at fault of many things, but human nature is, well, I'll say fortunately not in their hands. As I've paid, the lazy way out with ungeared MoF, broken bloody death, and outdated specs created a bad impression of CW. It's up to good CWs to change it, a party at a time.
And before you tell me that I don't know how it goes, and fells, I know actually better, because when the parties were 4CWs, PvE TRs sat in the corner, today, for better or worse, there are no unique spots, and you compete the same way as many others for the same one. Took almost a year of making a guide, showing how it can be done, and before any Dev changes TR was more acceptable.
If you want damage buff, perhaps it is warranted, perhaps it's not, but I don't have objection if things taken into account properly. I saw too few CW with current spec and equivalent gear to judge, those I saw some do well, some very well, others less, but mostly I don't DPS race. But lets say a buff is warranted, lets just not buff DPS as compared to someone running outdated control spec. Things should be back to logical separation, SS dps, MoF debuff. And why not make concrete threads with specific requests and issues of the paths. Some ACT and explanations.
I'm not sure what you ask for, is it "Hey, a wizard! I know a bit about them from playing D&D, they are squishy, but they can deal a lot of damage from a distance"
Or is it "control" Because the last time CW could do both, it was 4CW parties. And sorry for my lack of sympathy, but I'll rather not see that happen again.
If you want control slot for dungeons, sure, I'm all for varied content, and varied mechanics and class utilization, but please remember that CW is not the only control capable class, and shouldn't be. It will not be an exclusive slot for CW and it shouldn't.
Remember that this is 3 viable specs, dps, control, debuff, when other classes have only one, and it will be fair that they will be adapted too, I don't think that the competition will lessen as much as you hope.