Then they get to end-game, and yes while their character is squishy, they really do more damage up close! There is NO control, and they don't get invited to parties as DPS! What a scam! How misleading.
CWs do excellent damage. Good ones do get invited to groups, as a DPS. They don't use lfg or large open channels, they make their own parties in private channels or run with friends (who know they are good).
A run with a really good CW versus a really good GWF (just for example) is pretty much equal. Maybe there is some small difference, but it is pretty insignificant. Most of the time the difference between those two runs will come down to some bad/good RNG [the DPS's potential being basically irrelevant]. I'm not going to list all the examples of RNG in run-times, but one easy example is that stupid unavoidable stun in the sister fight of CR. In a good party, the adds and bosses die so fast in this game that whatever [specific class of] DPS you bring along is quite insignificant (as long as they are a good player). If you are a good CW, in a good group, you can clear content as well as any group.
Now, that being said, I agree that there is some discrimination in those LFGs and large open channels. The fact is though, this discrimination comes from a perception, not some super unbalanced reality. Search around on Youtube. You will find plenty of runs from different people with CWs (as full DPS), that are insanely fast. The developers of this game don't need to change players' minds, but we (as CWs) can do exactly that.
When you play with friends anything goes, but out there, you can show that CW can do fine (and some can, there are enough of those that did/do, from one phasing orcus, to matching GWF, to running primary DPS in the rest of the content) Or you can show that they don't.
Consider that if you make a group, and it manages fine, then the next time it will be easier and easier, and people will accept CW more and more.
Cryptic at fault of many things, but human nature is, well, I'll say fortunately not in their hands.
It's up to good CWs to change it, a party at a time.
@micky1p00 This is well said, and is the point I am trying to make. The CW is not some poor class that can't clear a ToNG in 13 minutes (documented). CWs (along with the other DPS classes) can clear content just fine. Those lfg, large, open channels are not going to find you a decent group, 7 or 8 out of 10 times. They are full of discrimination, sure, but that perception doesn't stem from reality. That comes from people accepting stigma. My advice, don't use those channels.
I am talking to all the CWs here that feel discriminated against, not anyone in particular. Fine tune your CW as good as it can be, learn everything you can, join groups, and smash the **** out of the content. People will remember you. They will invite you back. They will invite you to private channels. They will always welcome you in their groups.
If enough people did this, CWs would even be happily accepted (in those open channels) and the stigma would fade away.
I don't think that the competition will lessen as much as you hope.
@micky1p00 I am not talking to you specifically here. I'm just using your quote to start a topic.
I know that nerfing buffs/debuffs/power share/AoC has been suggested a few times in this discussion. I am not totally against that, but there is something serious I think people should consider.
If that ^ happens to a significant degree. It is possible that the DPS discrimination, and competition, could become stronger for some classes [with slightly lower self-buffs/weapon damage] (think CW).
Saying that currently all is well because "all classes have equal chances at being included in end game dungeons", in my opinion is detrimental, because it ignores the valid complaints that others have had in being stigmatised due to their class. Having you tell me, and others in this post, that their experience is wrong is a fundamental error in understanding of what is happening to them, not to you.
Nothing personal @iimrmonkeyii#3625, and with all due respect, this is my view on the matter.
First of all, I completely agree with that last statement. I hope you understand I feel the same way.
Also, this is important. Read those first two statements up there, that you posted. You are literally describing social psychology, not some "material class imbalance". You are talking about a stigmas, I acknowledge that Neverwinter has MANY of those going on. That is only a misguided perception though, it just is. The CW is fine, it really is. In fact, all of the DPS classes seem to be very similar when it comes to DPS potential [when considering the time it takes to clear content]. Maybe some classes can kill a boss 8 seconds faster, but we can't have developers making class changes due to something like that. The CW does excellent damage just like any other DPS class. A bad DPS is bad and a good one is good, it really doesn't matter which DPS class they chose. A really good CW will finish a run much faster than a really bad GWF [in the exact same circumstances].
I would like to see the base damage of the CW buffed as @thefabricant suggested here.
I would like the Thaumaturge path to be given the damage dealing role as initially intended. To do this would mean having the feat Elemental Empowerment, and the Capstone Assailing Force, scale with buffs, and not be capped by weapon damage or the opponent’s HP; and to function in a similar vein like Shadow of Demise (meaning as contribution to overall damage with burst effect). The Thaumaturge path does not have any team buffing or control capabilities, so I think it is ripe for change without making the CW overpowered as the CW would have to choose this path specifically for DPS.
I would like there to be a cap on party damage buffs, worked similarly like debuffs, so that we don’t have runaway buff groups trivialising content.
Not me, personally. I do already get invited to parties and form groups. I am lucky that I have built a good network, and I think I contribute my fair share as a MoF as it currently stands.
As you have suggested, I have already done and adapted. I know the life of a DPS is hard.
What concerns me are those CW that don’t have the networks that you or I do. Where are they to begin? The learning curve for a CW seems to me much harder for DPS than any other DPS class at the moment, barring the SW.
And before you tell me that I don't know how it goes, and fells, I know actually better, because when the parties were 4CWs, PvE TRs sat in the corner, today, for better or worse, there are no unique spots, and you compete the same way as many others for the same one. Took almost a year of making a guide, showing how it can be done, and before any Dev changes TR was more acceptable.
I would have thought then you as a TR, more than any other class, would see how CWs are currently struggling to be accepted.
Because CWs were the dominant class 8 or so Mods ago, does that mean that they will be stuck in their position forever? I joined just in the middle of Mod 5, when the CW was already on the wane. When Mod 6 hit, control became practically useless, and the Storm Spell nerfs began. I guess I was ‘lucky’ that I got to experience the last remnants of control in Mod 5, for example the old Spellplague caverns. I know those days are long gone.
My point is, why should I, or any new CW player, who never experienced this “CW superiority”, yet enjoy playing a Wizard class, suffer because of our class’ former dominance? I haven’t done anything wrong, so why do people (and I am not specifying you) continue to use that example against me or others like me to justify the current state of the CW?
The TR has received a lot of reworks recently: buffs to powers, with a fantastic buff to Shadow of Demise. It is not just guides and ‘image’ that helped promote the TR into the single-target damage dealer of this day, but actual Dev reworks to the class.
I'm not sure what you ask for, is it "Hey, a wizard! I know a bit about them from playing D&D, they are squishy, but they can deal a lot of damage from a distance" Or is it "control" Because the last time CW could do both, it was 4CW parties. And sorry for my lack of sympathy, but I'll rather not see that happen again.
I would rather they kept the Oppressor as control, not the go-to damage dealer. I would be happy if it kept its current damage, as it functions decently as a secondary striker (which is our secondary role on character creation).
I would be happy if they made the Thaumaturge path, and even perhaps the SS path, as damage dealing, to further delineate the DPS paths. See above for some suggestions for the Thaumaturge path, and also thefabricants entry.
If you want control slot for dungeons, sure, I'm all for varied content, and varied mechanics and class utilization, but please remember that CW is not the only control capable class, and shouldn't be. It will not be an exclusive slot for CW and it shouldn't. Remember that this is 3 viable specs, dps, control, debuff, when other classes have only one, and it will be fair that they will be adapted too, I don't think that the competition will lessen as much as you hope.
I would be happy for a rework of dungeons, but I would also be happy if the CW was a primary controller. Whether this means putting ‘piercing’ control, or looking at the way their powers function.
The TR has it good at the moment. It functions as described as a primary striker and a secondary controller. In certain situations, the TRs control can exceed the CWs. Smoke bomb in stealth disables for the entire duration of effect, whereas icy terrain fades quickly due to enemies’ control resistance.
The HR when specced also has good control, and brings everything close together. They are also a primary striker and a secondary controller.
I would be happy for those classes to keep their control powers as well. More versatility is better in my opinion.
Remember that this is 3 viable specs, dps, control, debuff, when other classes have only one, and it will be fair that they will be adapted too, I don't think that the competition will lessen as much as you hope.
There are 5 viable specs: dps, control, buff/debuff, healing and tanking, and currently the CW has none it excels at. It is the Jack of Few Trades, and Master of None.
Note above, as just two examples, the HR and TR also have control when specced for it.
The Scourge Warlock, a primary striker and secondary leader, also functions as stated for its secondary role – they can be the best healer in the game with the right circumstance (they also need a buff to their damage, or perhaps the speed at which they use their encounters).
If we have the classes function as stated, then I would be happy.
I would like to see the base damage of the CW buffed as @thefabricant suggested here.
I would like the Thaumaturge path to be given the damage dealing role as initially intended. To do this would mean having the feat Elemental Empowerment, and the Capstone Assailing Force, scale with buffs, and not be capped by weapon damage or the opponent’s HP; and to function in a similar vein like Shadow of Demise (meaning as contribution to overall damage with burst effect). The Thaumaturge path does not have any team buffing or control capabilities, so I think it is ripe for change without making the CW overpowered as the CW would have to choose this path specifically for DPS.
I would like there to be a cap on party damage buffs, worked similarly like debuffs, so that we don’t have runaway buff groups trivialising content.
I would be happy if they made the Thaumaturge path, and even perhaps the SS path, as damage dealing, to further delineate the DPS paths. See above for some suggestions for the Thaumaturge path, and also thefabricants entry.
I would be happy for a rework of dungeons, but I would also be happy if the CW was a primary controller. Whether this means putting ‘piercing’ control, or looking at the way their powers function.
@vordayn I have to say, I think these are all excellent ideas for the CW. Obviously, if they somehow indirectly break the current reality of all classes being (at least) viable for compositions then no thank you. Seriously though, if those things work out it would be excellent. I really don't know about that last part though. I think that control which doesn't respect immunity would be super abused. I don't know how we could make that work.
Edit: Just for clarification, I understand that this base damage buff is coupled with a nerf to Chilling Presence. I'm not contradicting myself (before someone trys to say that lol) by saying a base damage buff is a good idea. I think it is silly how necessary Chilling Presence is too!
Am i allowed to put this point into this discussion?
What is with people like me, simply interested this "what is possible ingame" or "let's see how good an party can buff any dps char". This is something i started to like a few Modules ago, and people can now again believe me or not, the runspeed/smootheness or even the loot at the end is nowadays secondary for me.
I have now much more fun, buffing the dps char as high i can do, or debuffing as good as i can do, or being buffed as high as possible, instead of taking patience what 2 or 3 dps chars in an party are doing (and i think we all know what could happend after an few minutes..an stupid dps race between the dps'ers chasing paingiver...or if i am running my dps char i have no "fight" or "struggle" against other dps classes.
So also this "testing" some variants besides the Dc, Dc, Op, Gf + 1dps "meta" with smth like 1x Cw as "support", or SW as "support" or even an Hr as more "support" is quite interresting.
So i can't see the problem nowadays for this three Classes to make an Loadout for pure dps or more supportive, the only thing an Sw or Cw has to do is (Hr clearly not, for me the Hr is in the best spot off all dps classes)...asking for the most viable and actually dps build and screw this few minutes more..
I am playing now for an long time an Tr, i know the struggle to get invited besides Guildruns, can't count how often i was kicked from partys trying to run with randoms, i spared my time asking for invites during the msva disaster time, if in some "elitist zerg channels" groups were made, bc i knew it that i won't become an invite..
But maybe (maybe) the difference between me and the OP is:
If the devs would make an complete rework for the Tr, and let's say they would introduce smth like the WK Scoundrel as an party buffer or as debuffer, i would cheer it, bc now i would be also in the sweet spot asking:" Ok what should i play? Dc, Op or Tr and if Tr wich one, full dps or support?"
And here is my next point, and please @commanderdata002 don't take it personally i don't want to offend you, but you said:
Do you think its "healthy" when as guild leader I have to make rookies understand that they have to drop their TR/SW and start level paladin and clerics? And have to force 80% of my guild to have OP/DC when in need?
Here as an guildleader you should have the influence to say smth like:
"Ok we are in need of more support chars, so people check first wich dps class you prefer most, or you have the most fun (a game should always be fun) with, but if it is possible i would apprecciate if everyone is also gearing up an support char, if possible. So we can rotate easily between our dps and support char, instead of running nothing or looking for someone we don't know."
Tbh i know this is far more easier written than it'll be done, bc there was for me also "that day" my guildleader asked me if i could gear up my Dc a little bit better so she wasn't forced constantly running Dc, Op instead of her Gwf. So i did, we start running with me as Dc from the bottom, we had alot of fun joking and mocking me bc i had no clue what should i do and the same thing was later on with my Pala.
So for me, personally it doesn't make much sense anymore to gear up or invest Ad or Rp in more than one dps char (unless you have so much seals or hunt gear), for me it is simply better to have one dps and one (or more) supporter.
But i can still (and will be in the future) understand the "casuals" running outside an Guild and this people will be always have the struggle to find groups, running an dungeon, simply enjoy the game.
Those lfg, large, open channels are not going to find you a decent group, 7 or 8 out of 10 times. They are full of discrimination, sure, but that perception doesn't stem from reality. That comes from people accepting stigma. My advice, don't use those channels.
Well, here's the thing. Not all of us have the luxury to escape the discrimination that exists in the game (or in real life too, for that matter) and have to endure the reality that is presented to us. If I had a long friends' list filled with high-end players who would always invite my GWF on runs where they would buff the hell out of me and we could finish CR in 15 minutes or whatnot, I'd probably also think that there were no problems with how DPS classes are treated in the game currently. But most of us don't have that luxury, most of us have to live in a world where groups will overlook a 17k GWF in favor of a 14k DC/OP, or even a 14k CW/SW (provided they were support of course). So a lot of us came to the realization, back in Mod 10, "why should I spend all this effort and ADs gearing up an expensive DPS character like GWF/TR when I can save a lot of ADs, AND get invited to more runs, if I make a much smaller investment in a support character instead?"
This discrimination exists for a reason - because uncoordinated teams struggle with the post-mod10 content without the large quantity of buffs that support characters can offer. I urge everyone to solo public queue for FBI with whatever character you have, just to see what it's like to be on a team where players are not coordinating buffs, or much of anything for that matter. For most of these teams, IT'S STILL REALLY HARD even though this content is now 4 mods old. You can blame the players for being terrible all you want, but at the end of the day, the devs have declared them to be "ready" for places like FBI/MSP/TONG/etc. based on their entry requirements, and thus there they are.
You are right that there is more we can all do to break free of the discrimination that exists against DPS characters. We can work three times as hard to truly excel in our classes in hopes that other players will recognize our outstanding contributions and invite us for one of those coveted DPS slots for endgame content. But, the path of least resistance is just to level up a DC/OP alt instead. When you can't beat 'em, join 'em, right?
But I do commend you for at least acknowledging that there is discrimination against DPS characters in this game. A more common response here on the forums is to blame the victim instead.
My point is, why should I, or any new CW player, who never experienced this “CW superiority”, yet enjoy playing a Wizard class, suffer because of our class’ former dominance? I haven’t done anything wrong, so why do people (and I am not specifying you) continue to use that example against me or others like me to justify the current state of the CW?
Only short sighted people do that and remembering that like it was some great achievement. Their credibility is dropping each time!
There were lots of vastly more important changes in the games. Like mod10 hr/sw rework when the community worked together with the devs to achieve that.
Beacuse of current overbuffed "meta" and the big power creep the game is in far worse position than those ancient times. Complete buff rework needed.
And we all remember certain classes arrogance when they did that too...
stock and stone I can master, but there's a Wizard to manage here!
I have now much more fun, buffing the dps char as high i can do, or debuffing as good as i can do, or being buffed as high as possible, instead of taking patience what 2 or 3 dps chars in an party are doing (and i think we all know what could happend after an few minutes..an stupid dps race between the dps'ers chasing paingiver...or if i am running my dps char i have no "fight" or "struggle" against other dps classes.
I'm not entirely sure I understand what you are saying here, so I apologize if I get this wrong.
However, I also enjoy centering a group around a singular DPS (if that is what you are saying). I enjoy trying to coordinate (with 4 other players) a whole bunch of feats procing, artifacts activating, and encounter powers/dailies used all in the correct order and at the perfect moment (like trying to preflight a boss). I think that this takes more skill than 1 person healing, 1 person tanking, and everyone else spamming buttons (DPS people) in some order. I think that this "buff window" play-style, that groups are doing now, is actually healthy for the game. It requires much more cooperation in order to be successful (than many other play-styles).
Mainly, the reason I argue that the game is in a relatively great spot (besides lacking a variety of end-game content) comes from two obvious realities.
1.) All classes are at least balanced enough, to be invited to a group, without negatively impacting the run's success.
2.) There is plenty of content with a variety of "challenge-levels" for lesser coordinated/optimized parties (think Cloak Tower, Epic Temple of the Spider, Fangbreaker Island). There is a variety of leveling content (Cloak Tower, etc), a variety of "early-game" content (EToS, ECC, EGWD, NDemo, Edemo, PoM, Throne), and even a decent amount of "mid-game" content (FBI, MSP, ToNG, CoDG). These pieces of content offer a decent challenge with appropriate rewards (because progression becomes more expensive as you gear up).
However, at "end-game" there is literally one dungeon (CR) that even remotely challenges some "end-game" groups. The only groups that are actually challenged are the ones where one person isn't following the mechanics.
My sincere hope is that:
Going forward, Cryptic might consider this. Instead of focusing on class balancing, more campaigns, and fixing things like Ras Mancas Spare Hat (because that thing was so OP, right?) we could have more "end-game" dungeons released with each module.
Imagine if we had 3 or 4 CR-type dungeons/skirmishes released each module, all with specific valuable rewards for farming the content. Your long term players would be so thankful. Forget silly, unavoidable, mechanics (think of the stun at the sisters in CR). Make this content difficult on a fundamental level. Something that truly challenges end-game parties to bring the best they have, and work closely together as a team. Make rewards in this content consistent, not based on RNG. Players that are working hard to complete something, should be rewarded with something valuable every time. This content won't be impossible for all players. It might just take some time for players to be ready for it, there is nothing wrong with that.
Remember Cryptic, if some of you are somehow reading this, those "end-game" dungeons will eventually be beneficial to everyone (even if they are impossible to complete at first). Edemo was "end-game" content at one point, for example. I'm sure that new players still greatly enjoy completing their first set of Edemos with their friends. Once they progress enough, they have even more content to start farming.
Those lfg, large, open channels are not going to find you a decent group, 7 or 8 out of 10 times. They are full of discrimination, sure, but that perception doesn't stem from reality. That comes from people accepting stigma. My advice, don't use those channels.
Well, here's the thing. Not all of us have the luxury to escape the discrimination that exists in the game (or in real life too, for that matter) and have to endure the reality that is presented to us. If I had a long friends' list filled with high-end players who would always invite my GWF on runs where they would buff the hell out of me and we could finish CR in 15 minutes or whatnot, I'd probably also think that there were no problems with how DPS classes are treated in the game currently. But most of us don't have that luxury, most of us have to live in a world where groups will overlook a 17k GWF in favor of a 14k DC/OP, or even a 14k CW/SW (provided they were support of course). So a lot of us came to the realization, back in Mod 10, "why should I spend all this effort and ADs gearing up an expensive DPS character like GWF/TR when I can save a lot of ADs, AND get invited to more runs, if I make a much smaller investment in a support character instead?"
This discrimination exists for a reason - because uncoordinated teams struggle with the post-mod10 content without the large quantity of buffs that support characters can offer. I urge everyone to solo public queue for FBI with whatever character you have, just to see what it's like to be on a team where players are not coordinating buffs, or much of anything for that matter. For most of these teams, IT'S STILL REALLY HARD even though this content is now 4 mods old. You can blame the players for being terrible all you want, but at the end of the day, the devs have declared them to be "ready" for places like FBI/MSP/TONG/etc. based on their entry requirements, and thus there they are.
You are right that there is more we can all do to break free of the discrimination that exists against DPS characters. We can work three times as hard to truly excel in our classes in hopes that other players will recognize our outstanding contributions and invite us for one of those coveted DPS slots for endgame content. But, the path of least resistance is just to level up a DC/OP alt instead. When you can't beat 'em, join 'em, right?
I have to say that I completely and wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. Just the base level 13K OP/DC combo are tremendously helpful to the party composition. They are in such a good spot due to the power sharing.
Again I do not think that people who are arguing from the standpoint "go with the flow" are providing any useful info. We all know the ways to make ourselves useful for some content we deem manageable.
The problem is that people are forced into speccing as OP/DC for the sake of playing end-game content and this is only viable in Epic Dungeons. Nowhere else in the game is this required. Maybe in hunts with Sisters + Donjon. Or Sisters, Donjon, Poison, 270% Damage hehehehe
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
However, I also enjoy centering a group around a singular DPS (if that is what you are saying). I enjoy trying to coordinate (with 4 other players) a whole bunch of feats procing, artifacts activating, and encounter powers/dailies used all in the correct order and at the perfect moment (like trying to preflight a boss). I think that this takes more skill than 1 person healing, 1 person tanking, and everyone else spamming buttons (DPS people) in some order.
And some people like to freeze things up, then make Storm fall on their heads mid-air, building their characters in order to utilize safety-first principle on especially squishy character who does not benefit from the CON trait as much as others may.
Just the other day I solo'd EPIC VT Valindra by putting everything in the DEF, all boons. I also equipped a Bublewrap shield. The damage was lower, but the survivability was sky high. The hand would get damaged whenever I deflect an attack. I was attacked by 2 waves of undead warriors + Valindra's action point loss AoE + hand. They would beat me for a long time. But the approach sucked. I could just swap the daily and use it whilst being controlled. Unfortunately many times Valindra also casts AP-lose AoE, and the companion really likes to chase after Valindra unless I position myself between Valindra and the Tiger (who usually gets launched away due to her AOE. So it takes a bit of strategy which the possibility to cast CoI on her and inevitably damage the hand itself.
But it's way slower than what I'd get by utilizing other stuff.
You see the Epic Dungeons can be fine the way they are, but with extra control there might be a bit more survivability for the people. Who knows, maybe we can get 2 tanks, 2 CWs with healing abilities and one TR to unleash Shadow of Demise on the bosses. And we can make a strategy control / shield / control / damage.
In fact back when there WAS CC in uses in Epic Dungeons it took people TIME AND EFFORT to learn the dungeon mechanics and the enemy mechanics as well. The Dungeons were harder. Back then you didn't have so many boons to choose from. CN was unbeatable without CW's Arcane Singularity for many people. So there was a component of Strategy involved at all times.
Beating PK took time and coordination back then. So I do not agree that having "CC" is anything more advantageous than buffing a DPS with 300K power. If anything, it's illogical to assume that 2-3 sec freeze is more advantageous than someone who can one-two shot any (de)buffed mob with several clicks of left mouse click. And it's not like there's a lot of strategy involved in that tbh since you go from a to b, (de)buff and unleash attack. Then repeat the process.
True Neutral
Left the Game due to heavy Damage Control & Missing Spanish Language
I have now much more fun, buffing the dps char as high i can do, or debuffing as good as i can do, or being buffed as high as possible, instead of taking patience what 2 or 3 dps chars in an party are doing (and i think we all know what could happend after an few minutes..an stupid dps race between the dps'ers chasing paingiver...or if i am running my dps char i have no "fight" or "struggle" against other dps classes.
I'm not entirely sure I understand what you are saying here, so I apologize if I get this wrong.
However, I also enjoy centering a group around a singular DPS (if that is what you are saying). I enjoy trying to coordinate (with 4 other players) a whole bunch of feats procing, artifacts activating, and encounter powers/dailies used all in the correct order and at the perfect moment (like trying to preflight a boss). I think that this takes more skill than 1 person healing, 1 person tanking, and everyone else spamming buttons (DPS people) in some order. I think that this "buff window" play-style, that groups are doing now, is actually healthy for the game. It requires much more cooperation in order to be successful (than many other play-styles).
It's great that you and others enjoy that, but for everyone who prefers other kinds of fun, dislikes that sort of thing, or finds it distasteful (as I do), it's creating a very stressful and depressing environment. I don't think that's healthy for the game at all.
Remember Cryptic, if some of you are somehow reading this, those "end-game" dungeons will eventually be beneficial to everyone (even if they are impossible to complete at first). Edemo was "end-game" content at one point, for example. I'm sure that new players still greatly enjoy completing their first set of Edemos with their friends. Once they progress enough, they have even more content to start farming.
With the multiplying buffs, the damage output of super-coordinated meta groups can be orders of magnitude higher than any other combo. To make content that truly challenges those groups, everyone else would either have to wait 6 mods (literally) or gear would have to go up 100IL every mod before everyone else could "eventually benefit".
Buffs need to be changed to additive so that the most efficiently buff-stacked groups are maybe 2-3 times more effective instead of 20-30 times more effective.
You consider FBI and Cradle to be "mid-game"? Okay, then try solo queueing for these dungeons. Tell us all how it goes. Here is what I predict will happen: your team will not only not finish, but will rage quit before the first boss (in FBI or MSP at least). Even if they get past the first boss, they will fail on the second boss. Does that sound like "mid-game" to you? I don't know what kind of universe you live in, but it is not the one that the rest of us live in.
And by the way, a game that is oriented around buffing 1 DPS with 4 buffers, is a giant F YOU to all of the DPS characters out there who aren't 18k+. Is that really what you want?
And while I am on the subject. I have finished several more CR's since I last posted in this context. All of them have been between 45 minutes and 75 minutes. It didn't really matter whether the main DPS was TR, GWF, or even CW. (I have not done one with HR or SW as main DPS, but I don't expect the result would be any different.) And, requiring about 5-10 mass life scrolls to be used each time. So it gets rather expensive to run this dungeon. None of them have even approached the 20-30 minutes that we see in the videos posted here. I can only conclude that the videos are either the result of some exploit, OR they are the result of some exceptional coordination between the team members. I'll grant the benefit of the doubt and say it was because of their superior coordination and expertise. That is fine. But what @iimrmonkeyii#3625 and others have to realize is that their experience is not the norm. It is out of the ordinary. And trying to offer content to challenge them, will mean content that is virtually impossible for the rest of us.
At this point, I am thinking that nothing that the devs are willing to consider will ever be a challenge to the hardcore players. No matter what dungeon they cook up, the hardcore BIS crowd will blow through it in under 30 minutes and then whine that it is too easy. THEY WILL NEVER BE SATISFIED WITH THE DIFFICULTY LEVEL IN THIS GAME. So the devs should not even try to placate them. It is hopeless. Instead the devs should look to who constitutes the majority of its playerbase, and that would include players who find CR to be a very difficult dungeon. And FBI, MSP, TONG, Cradle, etc., to also be challenging dungeons. The devs should certainly not spike the difficulty any higher than it is now. In fact I think they should tone it down a bit especially when it comes to the first boss in these dungeons. There is no reason, for instance, that even *getting to the first boss* should be as difficult as it is for FBI and MSP. And this is for dungeons that are now 3-4 mods old. It's absurd.
To be perfectly honest, at this point, I am no longer interested in doing CR. It will actually cost me AD in terms of mass life scrolls if I want to do it any more. The weapons from there are not even best for support classes - that would be the MW3 weapons instead. And for DPS classes? Ha! I'm not expecting to be able to finish the dungeon enough times with my DPS character before the CR weapons are obsolete again. There is literally no real point for me to go into that dungeon again. That is the incentive that you are creating when you insist on hard dungeons like CR. So, be careful what you wish for.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
You consider FBI and Cradle to be "mid-game"? Okay, then try solo queueing for these dungeons. Tell us all how it goes. Here is what I predict will happen: your team will not only not finish, but will rage quit before the first boss (in FBI or MSP at least). Even if they get past the first boss, they will fail on the second boss. Does that sound like "mid-game" to you? I don't know what kind of universe you live in, but it is not the one that the rest of us live in.
Please do not speak for "the rest of us". Because your rest of us, is definitely no the rest of us rest of us.
And while we are on the subject, time is not a direct indicator of difficulty, when there are specific components to prolong the dungeon without adding any difficulty like cut-scenes, long empty corridors, immunity phases and sequences.
And before 'someone' jumps, I don't do 15 minutes tombs, 8 minute cradles, or 25 minute CRs, (actually the only 15 minute tomb I was in, I think, I've just strolled behind and SW was the main DPS) because as choice I don't like the stress or rushing like crazy and the group picks are guildies and not cherry picked speedruners. But said that, difficulty will be in the risk of failure, and there is usually no such, ( except cradle if people decide to go lemming - and that mechanics is less friendly for more laggy people or with lower reaction times - older people), and no, I will not use scrolls, a run will not cost me more than I gain.
A pug can fail CN, does it make it difficult? Not really, what makes dungeons difficult for some people is usually just lack of knowledge, and a refusal to learn, you can make guides, video, explanations, but some instead of listening, will just spit in your face and call you elitist. So it's a waste of time and the failure is on them.
The question is about amounts now.. Most guildes, alliances, non IL filtered, (zerg channels obviously doing it all) channels can do FBI, Tomb, Cradle, and CR, and while CR as new content doesn't have the same success rate, or harder to make parties for, as it's longer, more tedious and some still don't have it unlocked or not fluid with the mechanics, it will be more wide spread given time (if people will choose to do it).
From what I see, those that solo queue, are a very small minority, everyone else figured long ago, that end-game is group content with minimal chat reading requirement, and who wants to waste time and scrolls on HAMSTER ?
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
What concerns me are those CW that don’t have the networks that you or I do. Where are they to begin?
Same place we all began, and succeeded, don't forget that a new player doesn't start at CR, they start at CN and go to FBI.
I'll say that this is a major issue of older content made less and less relevant. While it is natural that some things will be outdated, there must be a linear progress path for people to get experience, learn their class, and always have appropriate challenge for their current progress. NW doesn't excel at this. Yet, still, guilds, channels, and still functioning lower tier content like CN, FBI all available to cover this point.
The learning curve for a CW seems to me much harder for DPS than any other DPS class at the moment, barring the SW.
Sorry, I guess we all biased and what not, but I wouldn't say DPS CW has a much harder learning curve than the rest. And I do play CW... ( But far less than main, as a personal preference, that I don't have the energy to keep up-to date )
Because CWs were the dominant class 8 or so Mods ago, does that mean that they will be stuck in their position forever? I joined just in the middle of Mod 5, when the CW was already on the wane. When Mod 6 hit, control became practically useless, and the Storm Spell nerfs began. I guess I was ‘lucky’ that I got to experience the last remnants of control in Mod 5, for example the old Spellplague caverns. I know those days are long gone.
My point is, why should I, or any new CW player, who never experienced this “CW superiority”, yet enjoy playing a Wizard class, suffer because of our class’ former dominance? I haven’t done anything wrong, so why do people (and I am not specifying you) continue to use that example against me or others like me to justify the current state of the CW?
CW was very dominant when lightning procced on all the encounter ticks and not a single time, this was recent.
But that's besides the point, actually that was not the point at all. The point is when asking for a change, lets not overdo some things and screw the game for the rest of us. There are some absurd requests here, please give it all a fresh read in general terms not as CW, and you will see it too.
The TR has received a lot of reworks recently: buffs to powers, with a fantastic buff to Shadow of Demise. It is not just guides and ‘image’ that helped promote the TR into the single-target damage dealer of this day, but actual Dev reworks to the class.
This is 100% incorrect. Please do check the patch notes, and time line. The only single relevant change is to SoD and this one was ~3 weeks ago. And we are talking at longer time spans, a year for example..
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feanor70118Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,170Arc User
The original poster is absolutely right. The game needs to go back to dungeons that can actually be beaten by a party from the random queue and only include one tank and one healer. The mechanics of CR in particular are awful, but all the new epic content since and including TONG has been about equally awful. FBI is pretty terrible too, but it's relatively doable. Too much pointless instadeath, too many overpowered control/instadeath mechanics, too many steep learning curves for content that isn't all that easy to find a party for in the first place. Exploring the side dungeons in eCC or eTOS or MC was fun. Being pointlessly killed by no apparent source of damage is not. Being thrown, without warning, over the edge of a ridiculously designed boss fight arena is not. If people who actually can find a party that makes this content easy want more of a challenge, then they can unequip some gear and enchantments and try forming a party from PE or queueing solo. Or the devs can leave all the boring, badly designed post-mod 6 content as is with extra rewards for those people, and then redesign it to actually be playable with a rainbow party at or near the minimum IL. Really, I'd rather they stopped introducing new content and spent some time doing actual class balance for the first time and taking the RNG out of the game as much as possible.
From what I see, those that solo queue, are a very small minority, everyone else figured long ago, that end-game is group content with minimal chat reading requirement, and who wants to waste time and scrolls on HAMSTER ?
If you want to see what the game is like from other points of view, you will try to experience it from their point of view.
Or, you can sit on your ivory tower and preach to them how you think it ought to be done, while never actually lifting a finger to understand what they are experiencing. Your call.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
From what I see, those that solo queue, are a very small minority, everyone else figured long ago, that end-game is group content with minimal chat reading requirement, and who wants to waste time and scrolls on HAMSTER?
If you want to see what the game is like from other points of view, you will try to experience it from their point of view.
Or, you can sit on your ivory tower and preach to them how you think it ought to be done, while never actually lifting a finger to understand what they are experiencing. Your call.
I didn't call pugs HAMSTER, do not misquote me.
I've called people who refuse to learn, listen to advice, and prefer to 'victimize' themselves instead of learning and doing better HAMSTER. We were all pugs once, some have their constraints and do not want to move, some do their best within, just do not know better and just need a helping nudge, others left for greener pastures, and others like it there, and some are HAMSTER.
Why I need to lift a finger to understand when I've used plenty of time to actually help people to do better and succeed. Some rather yell how bad it is and want handouts instead of learning and do better. Very similar to arriving to third world fundamentalistic country and try to teach modern farming, irrigation and food processing techniques, but the locals call you blasphemer, spit in your face and just demand free rations. Nothing like some righteous fury and ignorance / obliviousness to start the day..
Ivory tower eh? You know how much time it takes to organize a guild, custom channels, moderate large channels like /legit used to be at its prime, large discords, write a proper guide, or explain people stuff, from char mechanics to new dungeons? I've probably took more new people to CR/Tomb and explained each one what and where to do than you ran it at all. Or explained the same things about the game, classes, dungeons, and what not. you don't see me whine about the little man. I do things to actually help ( hopefully).
But there are always those that do not want to learn and be able in turn to help others, they rather just complain, call everyone better exploiters and elitist, while deliberately misusing both words, and just want either free ride, or that the content be so trivial that instead of being appropriate for the majority of the players, it will be fit for some minority that can't find a group to play with in an MMO. They rather believe that their shortcomings actually grant them some moral high-ground. That for the fact that they, a minority, can't take a moment to communicate, or ask, when they fail, or google, ask, read a guide if they see that they are not doing well, that they owed something by the rest is like some bizarre unsuccessful combination of Marxes, Groucho Marx and Karl Marx.
Just to watch this thread, we have people saying that GWF is top dog, others (you) that you can't find a group on GWF, some want that every dungeon will be doable with any class composition (not tank), others want everything doable by random minimal IL group, like why we would want to actually know how class work when mashing the face on the keyboard is good enough, people can't even agree how easy they want it, but it is definitely the problem and the solution, right? Because making the game trivial worked so well in mod5, when more people left than mod6.
The first thing Cryptic should do is stop with the fine timing mechanics, push&pull, and sword daily bubble on CR, those are not appropriate for the variation of ping levels nor with the age verity of the players. The punishment for a single mistiming shouldn't be unrevivable death. And fix nasty bugs like second sister hopping all around with triple HP, which is from annoying to make it tiresome enough so people make mistakes and wipe. A dungeon shouldn't fail you from pure tiredness if your group is not one phasing bosses. There is an issue with buffs, there is an issue with the Queues, there is an issue with discrepancy between people at the same level 70. There are many things that should be changed and fixed, making end-game content easier (in general) is not one of those.
Most of my CR runs I have been Solo DC. Most of my CR runs have had multiple DPS. Most of my CR runs haven't been very troubled.
I've ran CR just fine with 2x TR an OP and an SW while playing a DC.
I've ran CR just fine with a GWF/TR/CW/HR as main DPS.
Usually two tanks are nice in really tough content so people don't have to use scrolls/Die as much but honestly-- I never run with LFG groups because I've had so many experiences of people being rude. Sure, I could get into any dungeon but I choose to run with people who aren't mean to anyone. Does that mean I often go days without running a dungeon- Yes it does. as an end game DC I could run dungeons all day/night if I wanted to do that but I choose not to PuG/LFG. I run with friends and my husband... Same as I ever did.
I ran with people who I've played with before and that can work together and haven't seen much problem in completing anything. I've ran with people through their first time through every dungeon and helped them learn mechanics. It's going to be a little while before the mass population has experience with CR and can PUG it with ease. That's just the way of things. FBI used to be difficult for even decently geared people and now it's been out for a while things have gotten easier- Maybe it's power creep, maybe it's people learning the dungeon who can say? If you want to complete brand new content as soon as it comes out of course you'll need to be well geared. The Devs have to create some kind of challenge for bleeding edge people. Imagine if you worked really hard to get all this gear for your character and how boring it would be/is to run in and have zero challenge in any content? Sure some people would prefer that but not everyone.
I've gone out of my way to teach people mechanics and take people through dungeons for their first times in my 5 yrs playing this game. Some of my favorite runs were teaching people content. That doesn't mean I can do that 24/7. Everyone wants to chill and have a run with experienced people sometimes. I've never complained about helping people get experience who were nice to me.
In short- CR can be completed with 1 main dedicated DPS and 2 secondary DPS that have some buff and a tank and a healer. Essentially a sharpened spear. That's why some classes have buffs and others don't because it's useful to have some buffs in group content and the ones who don't have as many buffs end up as automatically at the tip end of the spear. That doesn't mean a CW can't be main DPS in CR. Been there done that- But it's nice to have a sharp tip on the spear or someone who is well on their game/gear to buff otherwise your buffs aren't going to do as much for everyone else.
The team has to work together. It's a team activity. Everyone has a thing that they can do to help things go faster/smoother. That's the goal of an MMO in my opinion. If the OP hasn't played these dungeons and wants to say 'LFG said this so I can't go' is simply ridiculous. People are in LFG because they have exhausted their guild/friends/alliance/ect. No one in your guild/friends/alliance will go with you in a dungeon? Wow- I am very sad that everyone is a big meanie. Maybe I'm full of bias because I main support? Please go ahead and think so, but I do try to help people learn content who have common human decency.
Relmyna - AC/DC Righteous + Haste| Nadine - CW MoF (working on it)|Buffy - GF SM Tact| Hrist - Justice Tankadin|Healadin (Wannabe Tank)| Lena -MI Sabo TR (Farmer) | Jeska - GWF SM Destroyer (Farmer) | Maggie - HR PF Trapper (Wannabe DPS)
--
I'll never retrace my steps.
percemerMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 1,048Arc User
edited August 2018
Greetings, I manually moderated some expressions. Please remain courteous and respectful. If you disagree with another member, take your time to calmly write a response. Do not be insulting and respect all points of view, even if they differ from yours.
Beating PK took time and coordination back then. So I do not agree that having "CC" is anything more advantageous than buffing a DPS with 300K power. If anything, it's illogical to assume that 2-3 sec freeze is more advantageous than someone who can one-two shot any (de)buffed mob with several clicks of left mouse click. And it's not like there's a lot of strategy involved in that tbh since you go from a to b, (de)buff and unleash attack. Then repeat the process.
I already said that the content is too easy, I agree that mobs and even bosses die too fast. Before you call me an elitist again, go look up the definition please. Elitists are people who believe that they should be in charge, it has nothing to do with thinking a video game is easy. I am happy to run with anyone, I don't exclude players. If anyone here wants help finishing CR, hit me up, I am happy to help. I also don't believe that I should be "running" the show. The only issue I have with CC is that a "2-3 sec freeze" will easily perma CC the content with 2 or more players. That would make the game way too simple.
If they nerf power-share and buffs, I'm cool with that. We ran a CR awhile ago with no DC to see what it was like without all the super buffs (AA, BoB, Hastening, BTS, FF, Exaltation, PoD (debuff), HG, TI) and we did fine! We didn't even remotely speed run it, and the run was under 40 minutes. If CR takes you more than 40 minutes, your group is doing something wrong. I'm sorry. I'm not trying to put someone down for that, but that is the truth. CR is extremely easy when the mechanics are followed. The mechanics in there are silly, any player can follow them. Some of them should be adjusted though, some don't even challenge players. Some mechanics just one-shot people or troll stun them.
Now, let me tell you what I learned by running CR with no DC. A few things are clear...
1.) Runs really won't change that much if buffs are adjusted like debuffs were. A huge chunk of time spent in dungeons is things like walking down long sets of stairs (tong lol) and waiting for the next phase to begin (codg). You can easily imagine all the other things implemented to stop runs from being 5 minutes long. They are all over the content.
2.) DPS classes will be more pressured to run support (debuff/buff roles) This point might not make sense now, but believe me, that is what will happen. It will be MUCH more important for groups to reach as close as possible to the debuff/buff cap in order to finish end-game content in a decent time frame. For example, this run probably would have been faster if I wasn't playing full DPS on my CW. We didn't really have that many buffs or debuffs active, compared to an average group these days. It didn't matter to us though, we were just having fun.
3.) Groups will more heavily prefer centering around a classes with higher weapon damage, and personal buffs. Right now, all DPS classes are relatively similar when played correctly. However, runs will favor some classes if support isn't buffing them all sky high. More class balance will be needed after a significant change to the buff/power-share mechanics in this game.
4.) With a change to power-sharing, squishy classes will be less desirable for end-game content (think shepherd's devotion). After the suggested change, why not take a tanky DPS that can focus on full offensive statistics?
You consider FBI and Cradle to be "mid-game"? Okay, then try solo queueing for these dungeons. Tell us all how it goes. Here is what I predict will happen: your team will not only not finish, but will rage quit before the first boss (in FBI or MSP at least). Even if they get past the first boss, they will fail on the second boss. Does that sound like "mid-game" to you? I don't know what kind of universe you live in, but it is not the one that the rest of us live in.
And by the way, a game that is oriented around buffing 1 DPS with 4 buffers, is a giant F YOU to all of the DPS characters out there who aren't 18k+. Is that really what you want?
No, that isn't what I want. It also is not the way the game is now. If they nerf buffs, it will be a lot harder to find a group as even a sub-par DPS. The run will take a lot longer with bad DPS. People will become more picky than currently.
Forget solo queue also, I do that all the time. I enjoy solo queuing stuff. FBI is not tough at all, although yeah, sometimes you get a suuuuuper bad tank and you have to basically solo your way up the first hill. The rest is easy.
Btw, FBI was soloed, from start to finish, by an HR a year ago.
thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
I don't consider 2 dcs a must for CR at all, in fact, I think dcs are less important then a devo OP and a gf using kv (should be conq not tact). In fact, if I had to choose between a run with 3 dps, gf, devo op and 2 dps, prot op and 2 dcs, I would choose the run with 3 dps, because the devo OP and gf make the run so much smoother, especially at the last boss.
To be honest, I don't even think 2 dcs is ideal for CR, I think 1 dc is better simply because at the first boss the do dc normally ends up with the tome and at the 3rd boss the ac dc can easily double daily due to the sword anyhow.
Well, thats basically what he prays for. Return of CC, a cheap and too easy game play. I am glad devs dont agree with his idea.
Funny you mention that when pretty much all classes have one way or another to have CC. The only place where it doesn't work is Epic Dungeons and this is a flaw in the way CC is incorporated into the DR. I do not expect you to understand it, though.
CC is the core function of a Control Wizard. Many powers of a Control Wizard are purely Control oriented, but not used at all because of how ineffective they are in Epic Dungeon content.
I think that it is a cheap thing to bring a Paladin into the queue or a DC for that matter. Play with just your own strength without any Power Sharing then. And no Bonding Runestones then.
You're just portraying how biased and exclusive you believe things should be ran and at this point I do not find any further discussion with you appealing since you do not appreciate nor understand the class I'm playing with.
CC exists in the game so do not pretend like it doesn't.
Edit : You are basically saying : Tank is a must, but Wizard isn't. That's highly biased and arrogant.
Quoting this because I have a L70. I enjoyed playing this character quite a lot while I was leveling it. Now that it's level 70, I hate it and it's been relegated to be an invoker and salvager, with the occasional run of Stronghold quests, including Sharandar Support and Dread Ring Support. I really do not enjoy playing it for any of those, either, but I'm greedy for the Heroic and Adventurer Shards of Power for my guild, which is enough to get me to play it for an hour or 90 minutes every weekend. I wish CW's were more fun, and maybe part of it is my own fault in not understanding how to get everything out of what a CW can do. (I have tried builds from MMO Minds and that has not improved the situation for me.)
I don't consider 2 dcs a must for CR at all, in fact, I think dcs are less important then a devo OP and a gf using kv (should be conq not tact). In fact, if I had to choose between a run with 3 dps, gf, devo op and 2 dps, prot op and 2 dcs, I would choose the run with 3 dps, because the devo OP and gf make the run so much smoother, especially at the last boss.
To be honest, I don't even think 2 dcs is ideal for CR, I think 1 dc is better simply because at the first boss the do dc normally ends up with the tome and at the 3rd boss the ac dc can easily double daily due to the sword anyhow.
And, for boss 2, we have the all mighty silvering kit?
I don't consider 2 dcs a must for CR at all, in fact, I think dcs are less important then a devo OP and a gf using kv (should be conq not tact). In fact, if I had to choose between a run with 3 dps, gf, devo op and 2 dps, prot op and 2 dcs, I would choose the run with 3 dps, because the devo OP and gf make the run so much smoother, especially at the last boss.
To be honest, I don't even think 2 dcs is ideal for CR, I think 1 dc is better simply because at the first boss the do dc normally ends up with the tome and at the 3rd boss the ac dc can easily double daily due to the sword anyhow.
And, for boss 2, we have the all mighty silvering kit?
What is this silvering kit you speak of, and where can I procure one?
The TR has received a lot of reworks recently: buffs to powers, with a fantastic buff to Shadow of Demise. It is not just guides and ‘image’ that helped promote the TR into the single-target damage dealer of this day, but actual Dev reworks to the class.
This is 100% incorrect. Please do check the patch notes, and time line. The only single relevant change is to SoD and this one was ~3 weeks ago. And we are talking at longer time spans, a year for example..
You are joking right? 100%? Care to explain to me these changes below after a quick search?
So the following were the changes to the TR just this year. I couldn't be bothered going back further, because you are already absolutely incorrect about this. I highlighted all the improvements in red for you to see easier. Perhaps you won't be so forgetful and forget about these next time?
Perhaps you should check the patch notes, and the time line, and get back to me when you have a logical order of events in place. And yeah, go back a year and tell me then. Or stop wasting your time trying to justify yourself to me when you are the one who is 100% incorrect.
Trickster Rogue Duelist's Flurry can now trigger weapon enhancements with each hit against the target. Gloaming Cut: This power's tooltip has been updated to clarify its functionality. Functionality has not changed. Impact Shot now deals approximately 20% more damage. Impact Shot now calculates based on the correct amount of charges left; it had previously thought the player had fewer charges than they actually did. Oppressive Darkness: An issue has been fixed where the rank-up values were providing much more damage than intended. To compensate for this change, the base damage has been increased, and this power now scales with player stats. Path of the Blade can now proc the Lostmauth's Vengeance effect. Path of the Blade now procs weapon enchantments on the first hit only. Path of the Blade now deals an extra tick of damage. Path of the Blade now hits up to 5 targets, increased from 3. Razor Action now has a 30' radius at rank 1, and no longer increases by 5' per rank. Razor Action no longer deals Piercing damage. Razor Action now scales with buffs / Power. Razor Action: The artifact off-hand bonus for this power has been redesigned. It now increases Damage and Run Speed by 2% for each target hit by Razor Action. Shadow of Demise: This effect now only takes into account the damage dealt by the Trickster Rogue who applied it, even when several are applied at once. Shadowborn: This feat has been changed to the following effect: Whenever you enter stealth, your next encounter or daily power deals an additional 5/10/15/20/25% damage as physical damage. Shadowy Opportunity now deals 10/20/30/40/50% weapon damage, down from 20/40/60/80/100%, but now scales with player stats. Sly Flourish now increases enemy damage taken by 10%, rather than reducing enemy armor. Smoke Bomb now procs weapon enchantments on the first hit. Smoke Bomb now deals an extra tick of damage. Damage for each tick has been reduced to compensate for the extra tick. Tenacious Concealment: This power now grants 20% Stealth Loss reduction and 5% Stealth Regeneration at each rank. Tenacious Concealment: This power no longer grants Stealth Regeneration while taking damage. Tenacious Concealment: Rank 4 of this power should now properly function. Tenacious Concealment: The Artifact Off-hand bonus has been increased to 20% Stealth Loss reduction.
Trickster Rogue Shadow of Demise now deals 75% of the damage that triggered it as a 5-second Damage over Time (DoT) effect. When Shadow of Demise ends, it now deals 75% of the damage dealt over its duration, increased from 50%. However, this value is now calculated based on mitigated damage, rather than damage before mitigation. As a result, compared to before, Shadow of Demise deals less damage against enemies with high damage reduction, and more damage against enemies with low damage reduction. Shadowborn: This feat now provides a bonus of 7/14/21/28/35% on your next strike after stealth, increased from 5/10/15/20/25%. Smoke Bomb: This power's CC now works with diminishing returns in PvP.
What concerns me are those CW that don’t have the networks that you or I do. Where are they to begin?
Same place we all began, and succeeded, don't forget that a new player doesn't start at CR, they start at CN and go to FBI.
I'll say that this is a major issue of older content made less and less relevant. While it is natural that some things will be outdated, there must be a linear progress path for people to get experience, learn their class, and always have appropriate challenge for their current progress. NW doesn't excel at this. Yet, still, guilds, channels, and still functioning lower tier content like CN, FBI all available to cover this point.
The learning curve for a CW seems to me much harder for DPS than any other DPS class at the moment, barring the SW.
Sorry, I guess we all biased and what not, but I wouldn't say DPS CW has a much harder learning curve than the rest. And I do play CW... ( But far less than main, as a personal preference, that I don't have the energy to keep up-to date )
You are trying to understand the perspective of a CW without really playing a CW as a main yourself?
Because CWs were the dominant class 8 or so Mods ago, does that mean that they will be stuck in their position forever? I joined just in the middle of Mod 5, when the CW was already on the wane. When Mod 6 hit, control became practically useless, and the Storm Spell nerfs began. I guess I was ‘lucky’ that I got to experience the last remnants of control in Mod 5, for example the old Spellplague caverns. I know those days are long gone.
My point is, why should I, or any new CW player, who never experienced this “CW superiority”, yet enjoy playing a Wizard class, suffer because of our class’ former dominance? I haven’t done anything wrong, so why do people (and I am not specifying you) continue to use that example against me or others like me to justify the current state of the CW?
CW was very dominant when lightning procced on all the encounter ticks and not a single time, this was recent.
But that's besides the point, actually that was not the point at all. The point is when asking for a change, lets not overdo some things and screw the game for the rest of us. There are some absurd requests here, please give it all a fresh read in general terms not as CW, and you will see it too.
CW was very dominant!?! LOL!
You didn't even 'main' a CW (which you have admitted). CW were not dominant before the lightning enchantment nerfs - they were already middling and on the decline.
The TR has received a lot of reworks recently: buffs to powers, with a fantastic buff to Shadow of Demise. It is not just guides and ‘image’ that helped promote the TR into the single-target damage dealer of this day, but actual Dev reworks to the class.
This is 100% incorrect. Please do check the patch notes, and time line. The only single relevant change is to SoD and this one was ~3 weeks ago. And we are talking at longer time spans, a year for example..
Ivory tower eh? You know how much time it takes to organize a guild, custom channels, moderate large channels like /legit used to be at its prime, large discords, write a proper guide, or explain people stuff, from char mechanics to new dungeons? I've probably took more new people to CR/Tomb and explained each one what and where to do than you ran it at all. Or explained the same things about the game, classes, dungeons, and what not. you don't see me whine about the little man. I do things to actually help ( hopefully).
What strikes me odd, @micky1p00, is that you claim to be a leader of a, "guild, custom channels, moderate large channels, large discords", yet when people put opinions differing to yours (like the OP's post and a few others), you shoot them down?
I would have thought if other players have different opinions you would take time to listen, comment and not antagonise them.
The original post was that the OP is experiencing a problem. While there have been some good comments, e.g. finding an alliance, guild, building a network ... some other comments have just been a bit counterproductive. While I do hope that we can get into a more productive conversation, calling some of my ideas "absurd" without reference or qualifying statements is really taking it a bit far, and then condescendingly telling me to "read my own post" to find out what those "absurd" ideas are, is really offensive.
Ivory tower eh? You know how much time it takes to organize a guild, custom channels, moderate large channels like /legit used to be at its prime, large discords, write a proper guide, or explain people stuff, from char mechanics to new dungeons? I've probably took more new people to CR/Tomb and explained each one what and where to do than you ran it at all. Or explained the same things about the game, classes, dungeons, and what not. you don't see me whine about the little man. I do things to actually help ( hopefully).
What strikes me odd, @micky1p00, is that you claim to be a leader of a, "guild, custom channels, moderate large channels, large discords", yet when people put opinions differing to yours (like the OP's post and a few others), you shoot them down?
I would have thought if other players have different opinions you would take time to listen, comment and not antagonise them.
The original post was that the OP is experiencing a problem. While there have been some good comments, e.g. finding an alliance, guild, building a network ... some other comments have just been a bit counterproductive. While I do hope that we can get into a more productive conversation, calling some of my ideas "absurd" without reference or qualifying statements is really taking it a bit far, and then condescendingly telling me to "read my own post" to find out what those "absurd" ideas are, is really offensive.
It strikes me odd, that you choose to take my post to someone else, with relevance to something they did in game, as ad-hominem against me. You want to address a point, address a point. PS I didn't tell you to go and read your own posts nor I called your ideas absurd. I've told you to re-read the thread and suggestions not in an eyes of a CW but in the perspective of global balance of players, difficulty and interest in the game, and how some suggestions affect that. And I still stand by that request, this thread is not only about CWs, and not only as a buff request to CW, there are other aspects here that you ignore and focus your problem which is CW buff request (may it be valid or not).
Do you find that doing dungeons without the need of a tank for example but 5 arbitrary class in random specs a good thing ? And the difficulty balanced towards that?
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A run with a really good CW versus a really good GWF (just for example) is pretty much equal. Maybe there is some small difference, but it is pretty insignificant. Most of the time the difference between those two runs will come down to some bad/good RNG [the DPS's potential being basically irrelevant]. I'm not going to list all the examples of RNG in run-times, but one easy example is that stupid unavoidable stun in the sister fight of CR. In a good party, the adds and bosses die so fast in this game that whatever [specific class of] DPS you bring along is quite insignificant (as long as they are a good player). If you are a good CW, in a good group, you can clear content as well as any group.
Now, that being said, I agree that there is some discrimination in those LFGs and large open channels. The fact is though, this discrimination comes from a perception, not some super unbalanced reality. Search around on Youtube. You will find plenty of runs from different people with CWs (as full DPS), that are insanely fast. The developers of this game don't need to change players' minds, but we (as CWs) can do exactly that. @micky1p00
This is well said, and is the point I am trying to make. The CW is not some poor class that can't clear a ToNG in 13 minutes (documented). CWs (along with the other DPS classes) can clear content just fine. Those lfg, large, open channels are not going to find you a decent group, 7 or 8 out of 10 times. They are full of discrimination, sure, but that perception doesn't stem from reality. That comes from people accepting stigma. My advice, don't use those channels.
I am talking to all the CWs here that feel discriminated against, not anyone in particular.
Fine tune your CW as good as it can be, learn everything you can, join groups, and smash the **** out of the content. People will remember you. They will invite you back. They will invite you to private channels. They will always welcome you in their groups.
If enough people did this, CWs would even be happily accepted (in those open channels) and the stigma would fade away. @micky1p00 I am not talking to you specifically here. I'm just using your quote to start a topic.
I know that nerfing buffs/debuffs/power share/AoC has been suggested a few times in this discussion. I am not totally against that, but there is something serious I think people should consider.
If that ^ happens to a significant degree. It is possible that the DPS discrimination, and competition, could become stronger for some classes [with slightly lower self-buffs/weapon damage] (think CW). First of all, I completely agree with that last statement. I hope you understand I feel the same way.
Also, this is important. Read those first two statements up there, that you posted. You are literally describing social psychology, not some "material class imbalance". You are talking about a stigmas, I acknowledge that Neverwinter has MANY of those going on. That is only a misguided perception though, it just is. The CW is fine, it really is. In fact, all of the DPS classes seem to be very similar when it comes to DPS potential [when considering the time it takes to clear content]. Maybe some classes can kill a boss 8 seconds faster, but we can't have developers making class changes due to something like that. The CW does excellent damage just like any other DPS class. A bad DPS is bad and a good one is good, it really doesn't matter which DPS class they chose. A really good CW will finish a run much faster than a really bad GWF [in the exact same circumstances].
I would like the Thaumaturge path to be given the damage dealing role as initially intended. To do this would mean having the feat Elemental Empowerment, and the Capstone Assailing Force, scale with buffs, and not be capped by weapon damage or the opponent’s HP; and to function in a similar vein like Shadow of Demise (meaning as contribution to overall damage with burst effect). The Thaumaturge path does not have any team buffing or control capabilities, so I think it is ripe for change without making the CW overpowered as the CW would have to choose this path specifically for DPS.
I would like there to be a cap on party damage buffs, worked similarly like debuffs, so that we don’t have runaway buff groups trivialising content. Not me, personally. I do already get invited to parties and form groups. I am lucky that I have built a good network, and I think I contribute my fair share as a MoF as it currently stands.
As you have suggested, I have already done and adapted. I know the life of a DPS is hard.
What concerns me are those CW that don’t have the networks that you or I do. Where are they to begin? The learning curve for a CW seems to me much harder for DPS than any other DPS class at the moment, barring the SW. I would have thought then you as a TR, more than any other class, would see how CWs are currently struggling to be accepted.
Because CWs were the dominant class 8 or so Mods ago, does that mean that they will be stuck in their position forever? I joined just in the middle of Mod 5, when the CW was already on the wane. When Mod 6 hit, control became practically useless, and the Storm Spell nerfs began. I guess I was ‘lucky’ that I got to experience the last remnants of control in Mod 5, for example the old Spellplague caverns. I know those days are long gone.
My point is, why should I, or any new CW player, who never experienced this “CW superiority”, yet enjoy playing a Wizard class, suffer because of our class’ former dominance? I haven’t done anything wrong, so why do people (and I am not specifying you) continue to use that example against me or others like me to justify the current state of the CW?
The TR has received a lot of reworks recently: buffs to powers, with a fantastic buff to Shadow of Demise. It is not just guides and ‘image’ that helped promote the TR into the single-target damage dealer of this day, but actual Dev reworks to the class. I would rather they kept the Oppressor as control, not the go-to damage dealer. I would be happy if it kept its current damage, as it functions decently as a secondary striker (which is our secondary role on character creation).
I would be happy if they made the Thaumaturge path, and even perhaps the SS path, as damage dealing, to further delineate the DPS paths. See above for some suggestions for the Thaumaturge path, and also thefabricants entry. I would be happy for a rework of dungeons, but I would also be happy if the CW was a primary controller. Whether this means putting ‘piercing’ control, or looking at the way their powers function.
The TR has it good at the moment. It functions as described as a primary striker and a secondary controller. In certain situations, the TRs control can exceed the CWs. Smoke bomb in stealth disables for the entire duration of effect, whereas icy terrain fades quickly due to enemies’ control resistance.
The HR when specced also has good control, and brings everything close together. They are also a primary striker and a secondary controller.
I would be happy for those classes to keep their control powers as well. More versatility is better in my opinion. There are 5 viable specs: dps, control, buff/debuff, healing and tanking, and currently the CW has none it excels at. It is the Jack of Few Trades, and Master of None.
Note above, as just two examples, the HR and TR also have control when specced for it.
The Scourge Warlock, a primary striker and secondary leader, also functions as stated for its secondary role – they can be the best healer in the game with the right circumstance (they also need a buff to their damage, or perhaps the speed at which they use their encounters).
If we have the classes function as stated, then I would be happy.
Edit: Just for clarification, I understand that this base damage buff is coupled with a nerf to Chilling Presence. I'm not contradicting myself (before someone trys to say that lol) by saying a base damage buff is a good idea. I think it is silly how necessary Chilling Presence is too!
What is with people like me, simply interested this "what is possible ingame" or "let's see how good an party can buff any dps char".
This is something i started to like a few Modules ago, and people can now again believe me or not, the runspeed/smootheness or even the loot at the end is nowadays secondary for me.
I have now much more fun, buffing the dps char as high i can do, or debuffing as good as i can do, or being buffed as high as possible, instead of taking patience what 2 or 3 dps chars in an party are doing (and i think we all know what could happend after an few minutes..an stupid dps race between the dps'ers chasing paingiver...or if i am running my dps char i have no "fight" or "struggle" against other dps classes.
So also this "testing" some variants besides the Dc, Dc, Op, Gf + 1dps "meta" with smth like 1x Cw as "support", or SW as "support" or even an Hr as more "support" is quite interresting.
So i can't see the problem nowadays for this three Classes to make an Loadout for pure dps or more supportive, the only thing an Sw or Cw has to do is (Hr clearly not, for me the Hr is in the best spot off all dps classes)...asking for the most viable and actually dps build and screw this few minutes more..
I am playing now for an long time an Tr, i know the struggle to get invited besides Guildruns, can't count how often i was kicked from partys trying to run with randoms, i spared my time asking for invites during the msva disaster time, if in some "elitist zerg channels" groups were made, bc i knew it that i won't become an invite..
But maybe (maybe) the difference between me and the OP is:
If the devs would make an complete rework for the Tr, and let's say they would introduce smth like the WK Scoundrel as an party buffer or as debuffer, i would cheer it, bc now i would be also in the sweet spot asking:" Ok what should i play? Dc, Op or Tr and if Tr wich one, full dps or support?"
And here is my next point, and please @commanderdata002 don't take it personally i don't want to offend you, but you said:
Do you think its "healthy" when as guild leader I have to make rookies understand that they have to drop their TR/SW and start level paladin and clerics? And have to force 80% of my guild to have OP/DC when in need?
Here as an guildleader you should have the influence to say smth like:
"Ok we are in need of more support chars, so people check first wich dps class you prefer most, or you have the most fun (a game should always be fun) with, but if it is possible i would apprecciate if everyone is also gearing up an support char, if possible. So we can rotate easily between our dps and support char, instead of running nothing or looking for someone we don't know."
Tbh i know this is far more easier written than it'll be done, bc there was for me also "that day" my guildleader asked me if i could gear up my Dc a little bit better so she wasn't forced constantly running Dc, Op instead of her Gwf.
So i did, we start running with me as Dc from the bottom, we had alot of fun joking and mocking me bc i had no clue what should i do and the same thing was later on with my Pala.
So for me, personally it doesn't make much sense anymore to gear up or invest Ad or Rp in more than one dps char (unless you have so much seals or hunt gear), for me it is simply better to have one dps and one (or more) supporter.
But i can still (and will be in the future) understand the "casuals" running outside an Guild and this people will be always have the struggle to find groups, running an dungeon, simply enjoy the game.
This discrimination exists for a reason - because uncoordinated teams struggle with the post-mod10 content without the large quantity of buffs that support characters can offer. I urge everyone to solo public queue for FBI with whatever character you have, just to see what it's like to be on a team where players are not coordinating buffs, or much of anything for that matter.
For most of these teams, IT'S STILL REALLY HARD even though this content is now 4 mods old. You can blame the players for being terrible all you want, but at the end of the day, the devs have declared them to be "ready" for places like FBI/MSP/TONG/etc. based on their entry requirements, and thus there they are.
You are right that there is more we can all do to break free of the discrimination that exists against DPS characters. We can work three times as hard to truly excel in our classes in hopes that other players will recognize our outstanding contributions and invite us for one of those coveted DPS slots for endgame content. But, the path of least resistance is just to level up a DC/OP alt instead. When you can't beat 'em, join 'em, right?
There were lots of vastly more important changes in the games. Like mod10 hr/sw rework when the community worked together with the devs to achieve that.
Beacuse of current overbuffed "meta" and the big power creep the game is in far worse position than those ancient times. Complete buff rework needed.
And we all remember certain classes arrogance when they did that too...
I'm not entirely sure I understand what you are saying here, so I apologize if I get this wrong.
However, I also enjoy centering a group around a singular DPS (if that is what you are saying). I enjoy trying to coordinate (with 4 other players) a whole bunch of feats procing, artifacts activating, and encounter powers/dailies used all in the correct order and at the perfect moment (like trying to preflight a boss). I think that this takes more skill than 1 person healing, 1 person tanking, and everyone else spamming buttons (DPS people) in some order. I think that this "buff window" play-style, that groups are doing now, is actually healthy for the game. It requires much more cooperation in order to be successful (than many other play-styles).
Mainly, the reason I argue that the game is in a relatively great spot (besides lacking a variety of end-game content) comes from two obvious realities.
1.) All classes are at least balanced enough, to be invited to a group, without negatively impacting the run's success.
2.) There is plenty of content with a variety of "challenge-levels" for lesser coordinated/optimized parties (think Cloak Tower, Epic Temple of the Spider, Fangbreaker Island). There is a variety of leveling content (Cloak Tower, etc), a variety of "early-game" content (EToS, ECC, EGWD, NDemo, Edemo, PoM, Throne), and even a decent amount of "mid-game" content (FBI, MSP, ToNG, CoDG). These pieces of content offer a decent challenge with appropriate rewards (because progression becomes more expensive as you gear up).
However, at "end-game" there is literally one dungeon (CR) that even remotely challenges some "end-game" groups. The only groups that are actually challenged are the ones where one person isn't following the mechanics.
My sincere hope is that:
Going forward, Cryptic might consider this. Instead of focusing on class balancing, more campaigns, and fixing things like Ras Mancas Spare Hat (because that thing was so OP, right?) we could have more "end-game" dungeons released with each module.
Imagine if we had 3 or 4 CR-type dungeons/skirmishes released each module, all with specific valuable rewards for farming the content. Your long term players would be so thankful. Forget silly, unavoidable, mechanics (think of the stun at the sisters in CR). Make this content difficult on a fundamental level. Something that truly challenges end-game parties to bring the best they have, and work closely together as a team. Make rewards in this content consistent, not based on RNG. Players that are working hard to complete something, should be rewarded with something valuable every time. This content won't be impossible for all players. It might just take some time for players to be ready for it, there is nothing wrong with that.
Remember Cryptic, if some of you are somehow reading this, those "end-game" dungeons will eventually be beneficial to everyone (even if they are impossible to complete at first). Edemo was "end-game" content at one point, for example. I'm sure that new players still greatly enjoy completing their first set of Edemos with their friends. Once they progress enough, they have even more content to start farming.
Again I do not think that people who are arguing from the standpoint "go with the flow" are providing any useful info. We all know the ways to make ourselves useful for some content we deem manageable.
The problem is that people are forced into speccing as OP/DC for the sake of playing end-game content and this is only viable in Epic Dungeons. Nowhere else in the game is this required. Maybe in hunts with Sisters + Donjon. Or Sisters, Donjon, Poison, 270% Damage hehehehe
Just the other day I solo'd EPIC VT Valindra by putting everything in the DEF, all boons. I also equipped a Bublewrap shield. The damage was lower, but the survivability was sky high. The hand would get damaged whenever I deflect an attack. I was attacked by 2 waves of undead warriors + Valindra's action point loss AoE + hand. They would beat me for a long time. But the approach sucked. I could just swap the daily and use it whilst being controlled. Unfortunately many times Valindra also casts AP-lose AoE, and the companion really likes to chase after Valindra unless I position myself between Valindra and the Tiger (who usually gets launched away due to her AOE. So it takes a bit of strategy which the possibility to cast CoI on her and inevitably damage the hand itself.
But it's way slower than what I'd get by utilizing other stuff.
You see the Epic Dungeons can be fine the way they are, but with extra control there might be a bit more survivability for the people. Who knows, maybe we can get 2 tanks, 2 CWs with healing abilities and one TR to unleash Shadow of Demise on the bosses. And we can make a strategy control / shield / control / damage.
In fact back when there WAS CC in uses in Epic Dungeons it took people TIME AND EFFORT to learn the dungeon mechanics and the enemy mechanics as well. The Dungeons were harder. Back then you didn't have so many boons to choose from. CN was unbeatable without CW's Arcane Singularity for many people. So there was a component of Strategy involved at all times.
Beating PK took time and coordination back then. So I do not agree that having "CC" is anything more advantageous than buffing a DPS with 300K power. If anything, it's illogical to assume that 2-3 sec freeze is more advantageous than someone who can one-two shot any (de)buffed mob with several clicks of left mouse click. And it's not like there's a lot of strategy involved in that tbh since you go from a to b, (de)buff and unleash attack. Then repeat the process.
Buffs need to be changed to additive so that the most efficiently buff-stacked groups are maybe 2-3 times more effective instead of 20-30 times more effective.
You consider FBI and Cradle to be "mid-game"? Okay, then try solo queueing for these dungeons. Tell us all how it goes. Here is what I predict will happen: your team will not only not finish, but will rage quit before the first boss (in FBI or MSP at least). Even if they get past the first boss, they will fail on the second boss. Does that sound like "mid-game" to you? I don't know what kind of universe you live in, but it is not the one that the rest of us live in.
And by the way, a game that is oriented around buffing 1 DPS with 4 buffers, is a giant F YOU to all of the DPS characters out there who aren't 18k+. Is that really what you want?
I have finished several more CR's since I last posted in this context.
All of them have been between 45 minutes and 75 minutes.
It didn't really matter whether the main DPS was TR, GWF, or even CW. (I have not done one with HR or SW as main DPS, but I don't expect the result would be any different.) And, requiring about 5-10 mass life scrolls to be used each time. So it gets rather expensive to run this dungeon.
None of them have even approached the 20-30 minutes that we see in the videos posted here.
I can only conclude that the videos are either the result of some exploit, OR they are the result of some exceptional coordination between the team members. I'll grant the benefit of the doubt and say it was because of their superior coordination and expertise. That is fine.
But what @iimrmonkeyii#3625 and others have to realize is that their experience is not the norm. It is out of the ordinary. And trying to offer content to challenge them, will mean content that is virtually impossible for the rest of us.
At this point, I am thinking that nothing that the devs are willing to consider will ever be a challenge to the hardcore players. No matter what dungeon they cook up, the hardcore BIS crowd will blow through it in under 30 minutes and then whine that it is too easy.
THEY WILL NEVER BE SATISFIED WITH THE DIFFICULTY LEVEL IN THIS GAME.
So the devs should not even try to placate them. It is hopeless. Instead the devs should look to who constitutes the majority of its playerbase, and that would include players who find CR to be a very difficult dungeon. And FBI, MSP, TONG, Cradle, etc., to also be challenging dungeons. The devs should certainly not spike the difficulty any higher than it is now. In fact I think they should tone it down a bit especially when it comes to the first boss in these dungeons. There is no reason, for instance, that even *getting to the first boss* should be as difficult as it is for FBI and MSP. And this is for dungeons that are now 3-4 mods old. It's absurd.
To be perfectly honest, at this point, I am no longer interested in doing CR. It will actually cost me AD in terms of mass life scrolls if I want to do it any more. The weapons from there are not even best for support classes - that would be the MW3 weapons instead. And for DPS classes? Ha! I'm not expecting to be able to finish the dungeon enough times with my DPS character before the CR weapons are obsolete again. There is literally no real point for me to go into that dungeon again. That is the incentive that you are creating when you insist on hard dungeons like CR. So, be careful what you wish for.
And while we are on the subject, time is not a direct indicator of difficulty, when there are specific components to prolong the dungeon without adding any difficulty like cut-scenes, long empty corridors, immunity phases and sequences.
And before 'someone' jumps, I don't do 15 minutes tombs, 8 minute cradles, or 25 minute CRs, (actually the only 15 minute tomb I was in, I think, I've just strolled behind and SW was the main DPS) because as choice I don't like the stress or rushing like crazy and the group picks are guildies and not cherry picked speedruners.
But said that, difficulty will be in the risk of failure, and there is usually no such, ( except cradle if people decide to go lemming - and that mechanics is less friendly for more laggy people or with lower reaction times - older people), and no, I will not use scrolls, a run will not cost me more than I gain.
A pug can fail CN, does it make it difficult? Not really, what makes dungeons difficult for some people is usually just lack of knowledge, and a refusal to learn, you can make guides, video, explanations, but some instead of listening, will just spit in your face and call you elitist. So it's a waste of time and the failure is on them.
The question is about amounts now.. Most guildes, alliances, non IL filtered, (zerg channels obviously doing it all) channels can do FBI, Tomb, Cradle, and CR, and while CR as new content doesn't have the same success rate, or harder to make parties for, as it's longer, more tedious and some still don't have it unlocked or not fluid with the mechanics, it will be more wide spread given time (if people will choose to do it).
From what I see, those that solo queue, are a very small minority, everyone else figured long ago, that end-game is group content with minimal chat reading requirement, and who wants to waste time and scrolls on HAMSTER ?
I'll say that this is a major issue of older content made less and less relevant. While it is natural that some things will be outdated, there must be a linear progress path for people to get experience, learn their class, and always have appropriate challenge for their current progress. NW doesn't excel at this. Yet, still, guilds, channels, and still functioning lower tier content like CN, FBI all available to cover this point. Sorry, I guess we all biased and what not, but I wouldn't say DPS CW has a much harder learning curve than the rest. And I do play CW... ( But far less than main, as a personal preference, that I don't have the energy to keep up-to date ) CW was very dominant when lightning procced on all the encounter ticks and not a single time, this was recent.
But that's besides the point, actually that was not the point at all. The point is when asking for a change, lets not overdo some things and screw the game for the rest of us.
There are some absurd requests here, please give it all a fresh read in general terms not as CW, and you will see it too. This is 100% incorrect. Please do check the patch notes, and time line. The only single relevant change is to SoD and this one was ~3 weeks ago. And we are talking at longer time spans, a year for example..
The game needs to go back to dungeons that can actually be beaten by a party from the random queue and only include one tank and one healer.
The mechanics of CR in particular are awful, but all the new epic content since and including TONG has been about equally awful.
FBI is pretty terrible too, but it's relatively doable.
Too much pointless instadeath, too many overpowered control/instadeath mechanics, too many steep learning curves for content that isn't all that easy to find a party for in the first place.
Exploring the side dungeons in eCC or eTOS or MC was fun. Being pointlessly killed by no apparent source of damage is not. Being thrown, without warning, over the edge of a ridiculously designed boss fight arena is not.
If people who actually can find a party that makes this content easy want more of a challenge, then they can unequip some gear and enchantments and try forming a party from PE or queueing solo. Or the devs can leave all the boring, badly designed post-mod 6 content as is with extra rewards for those people, and then redesign it to actually be playable with a rainbow party at or near the minimum IL.
Really, I'd rather they stopped introducing new content and spent some time doing actual class balance for the first time and taking the RNG out of the game as much as possible.
Or, you can sit on your ivory tower and preach to them how you think it ought to be done, while never actually lifting a finger to understand what they are experiencing. Your call.
I've called people who refuse to learn, listen to advice, and prefer to 'victimize' themselves instead of learning and doing better HAMSTER. We were all pugs once, some have their constraints and do not want to move, some do their best within, just do not know better and just need a helping nudge, others left for greener pastures, and others like it there, and some are HAMSTER.
Why I need to lift a finger to understand when I've used plenty of time to actually help people to do better and succeed. Some rather yell how bad it is and want handouts instead of learning and do better.
Very similar to arriving to third world fundamentalistic country and try to teach modern farming, irrigation and food processing techniques, but the locals call you blasphemer, spit in your face and just demand free rations. Nothing like some righteous fury and ignorance / obliviousness to start the day..
Ivory tower eh? You know how much time it takes to organize a guild, custom channels, moderate large channels like /legit used to be at its prime, large discords, write a proper guide, or explain people stuff, from char mechanics to new dungeons? I've probably took more new people to CR/Tomb and explained each one what and where to do than you ran it at all. Or explained the same things about the game, classes, dungeons, and what not.
you don't see me whine about the little man. I do things to actually help ( hopefully).
But there are always those that do not want to learn and be able in turn to help others, they rather just complain, call everyone better exploiters and elitist, while deliberately misusing both words, and just want either free ride, or that the content be so trivial that instead of being appropriate for the majority of the players, it will be fit for some minority that can't find a group to play with in an MMO. They rather believe that their shortcomings actually grant them some moral high-ground. That for the fact that they, a minority, can't take a moment to communicate, or ask, when they fail, or google, ask, read a guide if they see that they are not doing well, that they owed something by the rest is like some bizarre unsuccessful combination of Marxes, Groucho Marx and Karl Marx.
Just to watch this thread, we have people saying that GWF is top dog, others (you) that you can't find a group on GWF, some want that every dungeon will be doable with any class composition (not tank), others want everything doable by random minimal IL group, like why we would want to actually know how class work when mashing the face on the keyboard is good enough, people can't even agree how easy they want it, but it is definitely the problem and the solution, right? Because making the game trivial worked so well in mod5, when more people left than mod6.
The first thing Cryptic should do is stop with the fine timing mechanics, push&pull, and sword daily bubble on CR, those are not appropriate for the variation of ping levels nor with the age verity of the players. The punishment for a single mistiming shouldn't be unrevivable death.
And fix nasty bugs like second sister hopping all around with triple HP, which is from annoying to make it tiresome enough so people make mistakes and wipe. A dungeon shouldn't fail you from pure tiredness if your group is not one phasing bosses.
There is an issue with buffs, there is an issue with the Queues, there is an issue with discrepancy between people at the same level 70. There are many things that should be changed and fixed, making end-game content easier (in general) is not one of those.
Most of my CR runs I have been Solo DC.
Most of my CR runs have had multiple DPS.
Most of my CR runs haven't been very troubled.
I've ran CR just fine with 2x TR an OP and an SW while playing a DC.
I've ran CR just fine with a GWF/TR/CW/HR as main DPS.
Usually two tanks are nice in really tough content so people don't have to use scrolls/Die as much but honestly-- I never run with LFG groups because I've had so many experiences of people being rude. Sure, I could get into any dungeon but I choose to run with people who aren't mean to anyone. Does that mean I often go days without running a dungeon- Yes it does. as an end game DC I could run dungeons all day/night if I wanted to do that but I choose not to PuG/LFG. I run with friends and my husband... Same as I ever did.
I ran with people who I've played with before and that can work together and haven't seen much problem in completing anything. I've ran with people through their first time through every dungeon and helped them learn mechanics. It's going to be a little while before the mass population has experience with CR and can PUG it with ease. That's just the way of things. FBI used to be difficult for even decently geared people and now it's been out for a while things have gotten easier- Maybe it's power creep, maybe it's people learning the dungeon who can say? If you want to complete brand new content as soon as it comes out of course you'll need to be well geared. The Devs have to create some kind of challenge for bleeding edge people. Imagine if you worked really hard to get all this gear for your character and how boring it would be/is to run in and have zero challenge in any content? Sure some people would prefer that but not everyone.
I've gone out of my way to teach people mechanics and take people through dungeons for their first times in my 5 yrs playing this game. Some of my favorite runs were teaching people content. That doesn't mean I can do that 24/7. Everyone wants to chill and have a run with experienced people sometimes. I've never complained about helping people get experience who were nice to me.
In short- CR can be completed with 1 main dedicated DPS and 2 secondary DPS that have some buff and a tank and a healer. Essentially a sharpened spear. That's why some classes have buffs and others don't because it's useful to have some buffs in group content and the ones who don't have as many buffs end up as automatically at the tip end of the spear. That doesn't mean a CW can't be main DPS in CR. Been there done that- But it's nice to have a sharp tip on the spear or someone who is well on their game/gear to buff otherwise your buffs aren't going to do as much for everyone else.
The team has to work together. It's a team activity. Everyone has a thing that they can do to help things go faster/smoother. That's the goal of an MMO in my opinion. If the OP hasn't played these dungeons and wants to say 'LFG said this so I can't go' is simply ridiculous. People are in LFG because they have exhausted their guild/friends/alliance/ect. No one in your guild/friends/alliance will go with you in a dungeon? Wow- I am very sad that everyone is a big meanie. Maybe I'm full of bias because I main support? Please go ahead and think so, but I do try to help people learn content who have common human decency.
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If they nerf power-share and buffs, I'm cool with that. We ran a CR awhile ago with no DC to see what it was like without all the super buffs (AA, BoB, Hastening, BTS, FF, Exaltation, PoD (debuff), HG, TI) and we did fine! We didn't even remotely speed run it, and the run was under 40 minutes. If CR takes you more than 40 minutes, your group is doing something wrong. I'm sorry. I'm not trying to put someone down for that, but that is the truth. CR is extremely easy when the mechanics are followed. The mechanics in there are silly, any player can follow them. Some of them should be adjusted though, some don't even challenge players. Some mechanics just one-shot people or troll stun them.
Now, let me tell you what I learned by running CR with no DC. A few things are clear...
1.) Runs really won't change that much if buffs are adjusted like debuffs were.
A huge chunk of time spent in dungeons is things like walking down long sets of stairs (tong lol) and waiting for the next phase to begin (codg). You can easily imagine all the other things implemented to stop runs from being 5 minutes long. They are all over the content.
2.) DPS classes will be more pressured to run support (debuff/buff roles)
This point might not make sense now, but believe me, that is what will happen. It will be MUCH more important for groups to reach as close as possible to the debuff/buff cap in order to finish end-game content in a decent time frame. For example, this run probably would have been faster if I wasn't playing full DPS on my CW. We didn't really have that many buffs or debuffs active, compared to an average group these days. It didn't matter to us though, we were just having fun.
3.) Groups will more heavily prefer centering around a classes with higher weapon damage, and personal buffs.
Right now, all DPS classes are relatively similar when played correctly. However, runs will favor some classes if support isn't buffing them all sky high. More class balance will be needed after a significant change to the buff/power-share mechanics in this game.
4.) With a change to power-sharing, squishy classes will be less desirable for end-game content (think shepherd's devotion).
After the suggested change, why not take a tanky DPS that can focus on full offensive statistics? No, that isn't what I want. It also is not the way the game is now. If they nerf buffs, it will be a lot harder to find a group as even a sub-par DPS. The run will take a lot longer with bad DPS. People will become more picky than currently.
Forget solo queue also, I do that all the time. I enjoy solo queuing stuff. FBI is not tough at all, although yeah, sometimes you get a suuuuuper bad tank and you have to basically solo your way up the first hill. The rest is easy.
Btw, FBI was soloed, from start to finish, by an HR a year ago.
To be honest, I don't even think 2 dcs is ideal for CR, I think 1 dc is better simply because at the first boss the do dc normally ends up with the tome and at the 3rd boss the ac dc can easily double daily due to the sword anyhow.
So the following were the changes to the TR just this year. I couldn't be bothered going back further, because you are already absolutely incorrect about this. I highlighted all the improvements in red for you to see easier. Perhaps you won't be so forgetful and forget about these next time?
Perhaps you should check the patch notes, and the time line, and get back to me when you have a logical order of events in place. And yeah, go back a year and tell me then. Or stop wasting your time trying to justify yourself to me when you are the one who is 100% incorrect.
Patch notes 28 Feb 2018:
Trickster Rogue
Duelist's Flurry can now trigger weapon enhancements with each hit against the target.
Gloaming Cut: This power's tooltip has been updated to clarify its functionality. Functionality has not changed.
Impact Shot now deals approximately 20% more damage.
Impact Shot now calculates based on the correct amount of charges left; it had previously thought the player had fewer charges than they actually did.
Oppressive Darkness: An issue has been fixed where the rank-up values were providing much more damage than intended. To compensate for this change, the base damage has been increased, and this power now scales with player stats.
Path of the Blade can now proc the Lostmauth's Vengeance effect.
Path of the Blade now procs weapon enchantments on the first hit only.
Path of the Blade now deals an extra tick of damage.
Path of the Blade now hits up to 5 targets, increased from 3.
Razor Action now has a 30' radius at rank 1, and no longer increases by 5' per rank.
Razor Action no longer deals Piercing damage.
Razor Action now scales with buffs / Power.
Razor Action: The artifact off-hand bonus for this power has been redesigned. It now increases Damage and Run Speed by 2% for each target hit by Razor Action.
Shadow of Demise: This effect now only takes into account the damage dealt by the Trickster Rogue who applied it, even when several are applied at once.
Shadowborn: This feat has been changed to the following effect: Whenever you enter stealth, your next encounter or daily power deals an additional 5/10/15/20/25% damage as physical damage.
Shadowy Opportunity now deals 10/20/30/40/50% weapon damage, down from 20/40/60/80/100%, but now scales with player stats.
Sly Flourish now increases enemy damage taken by 10%, rather than reducing enemy armor.
Smoke Bomb now procs weapon enchantments on the first hit.
Smoke Bomb now deals an extra tick of damage. Damage for each tick has been reduced to compensate for the extra tick.
Tenacious Concealment: This power now grants 20% Stealth Loss reduction and 5% Stealth Regeneration at each rank.
Tenacious Concealment: This power no longer grants Stealth Regeneration while taking damage.
Tenacious Concealment: Rank 4 of this power should now properly function.
Tenacious Concealment: The Artifact Off-hand bonus has been increased to 20% Stealth Loss reduction.
Patch notes 25 July 2018:
Trickster Rogue
Shadow of Demise now deals 75% of the damage that triggered it as a 5-second Damage over Time (DoT) effect.
When Shadow of Demise ends, it now deals 75% of the damage dealt over its duration, increased from 50%. However, this value is now calculated based on mitigated damage, rather than damage before mitigation. As a result, compared to before, Shadow of Demise deals less damage against enemies with high damage reduction, and more damage against enemies with low damage reduction.
Shadowborn: This feat now provides a bonus of 7/14/21/28/35% on your next strike after stealth, increased from 5/10/15/20/25%.
Smoke Bomb: This power's CC now works with diminishing returns in PvP.
You didn't even 'main' a CW (which you have admitted). CW were not dominant before the lightning enchantment nerfs - they were already middling and on the decline. Read my post above.
I would have thought if other players have different opinions you would take time to listen, comment and not antagonise them.
The original post was that the OP is experiencing a problem. While there have been some good comments, e.g. finding an alliance, guild, building a network ... some other comments have just been a bit counterproductive. While I do hope that we can get into a more productive conversation, calling some of my ideas "absurd" without reference or qualifying statements is really taking it a bit far, and then condescendingly telling me to "read my own post" to find out what those "absurd" ideas are, is really offensive.
PS I didn't tell you to go and read your own posts nor I called your ideas absurd. I've told you to re-read the thread and suggestions not in an eyes of a CW but in the perspective of global balance of players, difficulty and interest in the game, and how some suggestions affect that.
And I still stand by that request, this thread is not only about CWs, and not only as a buff request to CW, there are other aspects here that you ignore and focus your problem which is CW buff request (may it be valid or not).
Do you find that doing dungeons without the need of a tank for example but 5 arbitrary class in random specs a good thing ? And the difficulty balanced towards that?