if you're not liking that a gelatinous cube or a rage drake isn't burning down a 13k gwf then for example, then I would just wonder why you would want your ranged DPS class to need to stand as close to them to attack like a gwf has to.
Not sure if I got that right ? I have to stay in melee because my powers force me to do so. 2 out of my encounter are in need of melee range at trash (PoP and AoH ), +/- one At Will. At bosses it´s not like that, only one encounter needs melee, and one AT Will (HoB used by some player).
GWF uses: a. Hidden Daggers (no melee range needed) b. Daring Shout (melee range) c. some go Battle Fury (no melee range) most go IBS at mobs and bosses d. rest is WMS/SS
From my pov you HAVE to stay in melee/mid at EVERY single boss in Tong because those fights are designed like that, maybe except first one, at 2. you simply die in a corner and at 3. you simply buff the souls by not standing in melee and wipe your hole group till someone kicks you. Beside the fact that some buffs are hard to get in a corner of that dungeon except TI, HG, ITF and FF. And that´s what it was like all the way to mod 12... you did not know about that? Where do you find the DC and OP ? In the mid. Where do I get buffs? in the mid.
DC: Devine Glow, DR buff, + devine buff, Powerbuffs fom BoB 15`? and AA, Breaking the spirit... forgot think it was 20`, Gift of Haste OP: Aura of courage 30` , Beacon of hope, Radiant Champion 30`, flash of light, Aura Gift 25% powerbuff 30`
That´s about OP´s Circle of Power you have stay in to get some of those powerbuffs and speedbuffs, not all.
> @schietindebux said: > if you're not liking that a gelatinous cube or a rage drake isn't burning down a 13k gwf then for example, then I would just wonder why you would want your ranged DPS class to need to stand as close to them to attack like a gwf has to. > > Not sure if I got that right ? > I have to stay in melee because my powers force me to do so. 2 out of my encounter are in need of melee range at trash (PoP and AoH ), +/- one At Will. > At bosses it´s not like that, only one encounter needs melee, and one AT Will (HoB used by some player). > > GWF uses: > a. Hidden Daggers (no melee range needed) > b. Daring Shout (melee range) > c. some go Battle Fury (no melee range) most go IBS at mobs and bosses > d. rest is WMS/SS
> Beside the fact that some buffs are hard to get in a corner of that dungeon ex > And that´s what it was like all the way to mod 12... you did not know about that? > Where do you find the DC and OP ? In the mid. > Where do I get buffs? in the mid. > > DC: Devine Glow, DR buff, + devine buff, Powerbuffs fom BoB 15`? and AA, Breaking the spirit... forgot think it was 20`, Gift of Haste > OP: Aura of courage 30` , Beacon of hope, Radiant Champion 30`, flash of light, Aura Gift 25% powerbuff 30` > > That´s about OP´s Circle of Power you have stay in to get some of those powerbuffs and speedbuffs, not all.
I won't get into tomb simply because I haven't done it myself, but come on man(assuming). those spells force you to be in melee range? sw needs some work, but the option, since you have one, to be up close or far away on trash is the last place to have frustrations.
something every DPS main should learn to accept is that you're not always going to get the buffs, and you're surely not getting 100% uptime. gwf goes through this as well. ideally I want to be standing in PoP everytime it's used, but it's rare that I do get that chance, except some bosses or specific trash pulls.
any buff/debuff dc worth their salt is sniping with DG, BoB/AA/BtS take a bit more timing but usually after a gear check done at the very beginning of a dungeon, priority goes to the top dps, which imo is fair. that doesn't always mean the gwf either.
The GWF situation should have been handled a LONG time ago. I have no idea why the devs have been so blind for so long.
More recently is a puzzle, though I suspect this group of devs are not really tuned into their players based on a lot of recent comments they have made... but prior, Obermeyer played GWF on PC around mod 6 and it was disgustingly apparent it was pretty much an HAMSTER kiss to the boss. When DwightMC left, a certain other Dev finally got to hammer CW's. Storm Spell crit was one of the final blows that seemed to push a good chunk of the old guard out...yet they nerfed Losmauth set and never gave it back. I play all classes, so I'm not in favor of nerfs in general, but there is definitely a problem.
I do see spideymt being scared shitless of being nerfed, and well he should be. If other classes are lifted up to GWF dps levels game will be trivialized on several points. So since the GWF is so far ahead dps-wise, the sensible thing to do is to hit the GWF with some dps nerfage while other classes get their dps boost.
To make game fun for all, all classes need to have the same desirability in ToNG and the soon-to-be ToNG sister dungeon. And that WILL hurt GWFs since they will and should no longer be the most desired class. No way around that.
The "GWF Situation"???? And im scared of being nerfed??? Omg...im not scared. I say the wrong way is to claim for a nerf. And the wrongest way ever ist to compare a pure melee class with absolutely no good buffs/debuffs and with absolutely no real CC with an CC class like an CW and THAN cry for a nerf. Nerf was never a "sensible" thing. Never. And it should never be called "sensible".. And its the GWF that destroys the fun in Tong and the future dungeons??? Not the fact that orcus got way to much hp to kill him with "fun"? Not the fact that tong can be cleared in every constellation if the group knows what to do, but it will be too hard for casuals espacially with this "nice" bounding nerf? Not the fact that the shortest tong run ever was without an GWF or a CW?? But to make the game fun again for all classes, you have to nerf the GWF?? Srly??? Where does this GWF hate come from?
We need balance!!! We dont need 90% of mobs controll immun! We dont need bosses with trillions of hp and no tactic!! We dont need bosses where you MUST have revieve scrolls because he is really bad designed!
We need dungoens with real boss tactics. Bosses with adds you have to controll, things you have to click, maybe adds you have to kite, good designed dungeons, good designed mobs/trash..etc. etc. OH how i miss the good ole dungeons like FH or karundax...and oh how i miss to play my CW when you needed CC...but i dont miss the times when no one wanted a melee class in MC ( everyone knows why ^^) or in VT ( same as in MC) or in old CN or in any other dungoen when singu ruled all.
My first main class was a TR and after that it was a CW and everytime PW "balanced" theese classes ( example: You know why singu was nerfed?) to almost useless classes. Most of the time bc people said " make sensible nerfs plz". Great job....
Becomes immune to just about every single negative effect in the game in same said spec/gear
I got charmed, feared, stuned all the time. Even with unstoppable on. I think i play my GWF wrong.
Guys....whats that thread all about? Its just "Nerf GWFs". Nothing else. Instead of saying "we want balance. We want our CC back. We are a controll class!" you want nothing else than a nerf.
Nice attempt and utter fail to cherry pick what I said and try to turn it into something else.
First off GWF isn't AMONG the top DPS classes? If you actually think this then you most certainly are playing yours wrong. Did I say they were the absolute best and only real DPS class? No, I didn't, so your comment is factually incorrect and ridiculous. Based on your own comment in your response to mentinmindmaker, your arguement about comparing a CC class to a (as you state it) pure dps class, you (GWF's) should be the end all be all top DPS in the game, but based off your comment to me about speed runs in tong that just isn't it.....
So which is it? GWF's are the only pure dps class and therefor shouold be best dps ever or are you just blowing smoke?
Your ignorant remark about what's an offtank shows you are just blowing smoke.
As I so very clearly stated the GWF becomes immune to NEARLY all negative effects in the game. I call BS on your arguement. Show me where in any zone/dungeon where a cc or negative effect overpowers unstoppable (with the exception of chult/tong and in the baphomet weekly) as I will acknowledge that there is some (again as I so very plainly stated) negative effects that affect the GWF. Once again it would seem that if you truly are getting affected "all the time" then you are playing your toon wrong.
Once again as I stated very plainly it isn't about the GWF being AMONG the top DPS classes as you are so conflicted about, but it is about everything I listed all in 1 class, 1 spec with the same gear worn all at the same time. Try to read beyond your own limitations and see the big picture.
Do I think the GWF should get a nerf? Short answer, yes.
It isn't as simple as that. Cryptic just released a mod nerfing our bondiings and several classes on the premise that the power creep is too much. Based on that (obvious lie, can we say money grab) then they absolutely need a nerf.
As I stated, I don't believe the nerf's put out were based on power creep (which is very very real) but a money grab so my feelings are that we need class balance and (again as I so plainly stated) if the GWF is considered a finished product then they need to be the basis for that adjustment.
If CC isn't going to be a real part of the game and therefor give real use to having CC capabilities then the classes that have it (CW,TR,HR) need to be adjusted to balance with the completely finished DPS product of the GWF class. I'll acknowledge the HR seems to be in a good place currently.
I don't understand this thread. Why does everybody complain about GWF damage being top DPS. First of all, I have a 16.5K GWF, a 16k CW and a 16.5K OP. I have some insight into CW/GWF and ToNG runs since people love OP's for it. Some of my fastest ToNG runs as tank, GF/HR or CW/TR. No room for GWF and not needed.
When I am playing my GWF, my DPS is often matched or surpasses by combat HR's, CW's, DPS GF and TR's, yes right skill TR's can wreck havoc on single targets like dragon flight, SVA, Orcus in CN and ToNG all other T2 dungeon bosses.
"IRONY ON" Since these classes can out DPS GWF's shouldn't they be nerfed first? "IRONY OFF"
Single target DPS CW, well ask Sharpedge. Make a single target MoF loadout for boss fights and use focused wizardry feat, icy rays on TAB, desintegrate, fanning the flame and conduit of ice, talents chilling presence/swath or critical conf. You will be surprised about the CW single target DPS and with the right skills you will make more then enough GWF's cry.
You say GWF's are easy to play, well I would rephrase that and say, GWF's are the most forgiving and idiot proof class to play in PvE solo. That idiot proof is the reason for fueling the discussion about the mindless GWF's. People start playing them after they played other classes and find them easy to quest, but that changes with endgame.
When you play GWF, you have to push as many buttons as other classes, you have to micromanage you rotation so you do not looses your buffs from your own rotation since you have to manage different ICD's for daring shout mark, WMS, hidden daggers, IBS plus the duration time for unstoppable and last but not least destroyer's purpose. Then you manage your position and stay out of the red areas. After you managed all those you need to watch the buffs coming from DC's, MoF's, SW Templocks, GF and HR's (longstrider of course). Only after you learned all that, you will become an endgame GWF that can compete with the other DPS class. If you don't believe me, again the fastest ToNG runs did not need GWF's.
Coming back, this is true for all classes, learn how to play them, get your basic build right (ArmPen, Crit and Recovery for many classes) and you will do fine. Playing all the classes right and endgame ready, provides different challenges for every class, but it is not easy for any class.
And luckily the SW's get some love in MOD 13 and keep the fingers crossed for TR's.
PzkwVI_Kingtiger - GWF
PMS-Extreme - Moffus Debuffos
Tiamat's Toyboy - OP
Rent-A-DC - 1 GMOP per 30 minutes
Officer at Civil Anarchy, Member of Fabled Alliance
I don't understand this thread. Why does everybody complain about GWF damage being top DPS. First of all, I have a 16.5K GWF, a 16k CW and a 16.5K OP. I have some insight into CW/GWF and ToNG runs since people love OP's for it. Some of my fastest ToNG runs as tank, GF/HR or CW/TR. No room for GWF and not needed.
When I am playing my GWF, my DPS is often matched or surpasses by combat HR's, CW's, DPS GF and TR's, yes right skill TR's can wreck havoc on single targets like dragon flight, SVA, Orcus in CN and ToNG all other T2 dungeon bosses.
"IRONY ON" Since these classes can out DPS GWF's shouldn't they be nerfed first? "IRONY OFF"
Single target DPS CW, well ask Sharpedge. Make a single target MoF loadout for boss fights and use focused wizardry feat, icy rays on TAB, desintegrate, fanning the flame and conduit of ice, talents chilling presence/swath or critical conf. You will be surprised about the CW single target DPS and with the right skills you will make more then enough GWF's cry.
You say GWF's are easy to play, well I would rephrase that and say, GWF's are the most forgiving and idiot proof class to play in PvE solo. That idiot proof is the reason for fueling the discussion about the mindless GWF's. People start playing them after they played other classes and find them easy to quest, but that changes with endgame.
When you play GWF, you have to push as many buttons as other classes, you have to micromanage you rotation so you do not looses your buffs from your own rotation since you have to manage different ICD's for daring shout mark, WMS, hidden daggers, IBS plus the duration time for unstoppable and last but not least destroyer's purpose. Then you manage your position and stay out of the red areas. After you managed all those you need to watch the buffs coming from DC's, MoF's, SW Templocks, GF and HR's (longstrider of course). Only after you learned all that, you will become an endgame GWF that can compete with the other DPS class. If you don't believe me, again the fastest ToNG runs did not need GWF's.
Coming back, this is true for all classes, learn how to play them, get your basic build right (ArmPen, Crit and Recovery for many classes) and you will do fine. Playing all the classes right and endgame ready, provides different challenges for every class, but it is not easy for any class.
And luckily the SW's get some love in MOD 13 and keep the fingers crossed for TR's.
I don't understand this thread. Why does everybody complain about GWF damage being top DPS. First of all, I have a 16.5K GWF, a 16k CW and a 16.5K OP. I have some insight into CW/GWF and ToNG runs since people love OP's for it. Some of my fastest ToNG runs as tank, GF/HR or CW/TR. No room for GWF and not needed.
When I am playing my GWF, my DPS is often matched or surpasses by combat HR's, CW's, DPS GF and TR's, yes right skill TR's can wreck havoc on single targets like dragon flight, SVA, Orcus in CN and ToNG all other T2 dungeon bosses.
"IRONY ON" Since these classes can out DPS GWF's shouldn't they be nerfed first? "IRONY OFF"
Single target DPS CW, well ask Sharpedge. Make a single target MoF loadout for boss fights and use focused wizardry feat, icy rays on TAB, desintegrate, fanning the flame and conduit of ice, talents chilling presence/swath or critical conf. You will be surprised about the CW single target DPS and with the right skills you will make more then enough GWF's cry.
You say GWF's are easy to play, well I would rephrase that and say, GWF's are the most forgiving and idiot proof class to play in PvE solo. That idiot proof is the reason for fueling the discussion about the mindless GWF's. People start playing them after they played other classes and find them easy to quest, but that changes with endgame.
When you play GWF, you have to push as many buttons as other classes, you have to micromanage you rotation so you do not looses your buffs from your own rotation since you have to manage different ICD's for daring shout mark, WMS, hidden daggers, IBS plus the duration time for unstoppable and last but not least destroyer's purpose. Then you manage your position and stay out of the red areas. After you managed all those you need to watch the buffs coming from DC's, MoF's, SW Templocks, GF and HR's (longstrider of course). Only after you learned all that, you will become an endgame GWF that can compete with the other DPS class. If you don't believe me, again the fastest ToNG runs did not need GWF's.
Coming back, this is true for all classes, learn how to play them, get your basic build right (ArmPen, Crit and Recovery for many classes) and you will do fine. Playing all the classes right and endgame ready, provides different challenges for every class, but it is not easy for any class.
And luckily the SW's get some love in MOD 13 and keep the fingers crossed for TR's.
As I have stated repeatidly, it isn't about the DPS. The GWF has several classes worth of abilities all rolled into one. It's called class balance for a reason. Your response is exactly why people keep talking about this. You like many other GWF's refuse to acknowledge the imbalance with the class in regards to other classes (aside from just straight DPS).
This game design that uses the D & D background is an offense to the entire RPG story. In addition to being extremely depressive play a game where you can not play unless you have a clique of some members even within a guild.
Moreover it is more than clear that some devs benefit either or other classes because certain classes are easier to play or by crying come from here either from the forum or from certain devil advocates.
This encourages the purchase of credit and gives the account holder a mediocre mentality to the point of creating holes to play certain aka 2dc + GWF dungeons and the REST.
This makes it impossible to farm with the class that likes to play and ends up with all the urge to play the game itself.
Actually this game each passing day becomes more of a psychological virus than something that MUST be fun since the sole purpose is to profit from the psychological weakness of one or the psychological motivation placed on others.
The issue is whether it is because of problems with the GWF or another FOTM class that dictates the rules of training for X or Y dungeons the problem will continue and it will continue as long as profits grow.
And before someone of them attack me first by the way I write I notice that English is not my mother tongue.
1
lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
Another nerf thread, boring, get over it ppl and move on I say.
Another nerf thread, boring, get over it ppl and move on I say.
if you have nothing constructive to add then move on yourself
You think you have added anything constructive to this thread? Your posts are barely legible and full of spurious claims.
GWF is fine enough as it is. I might not support buffing the class but I sure as hell won't join a nerf hungry lynch mob. Can't see how it affects your gameplay so much in PvE that you feel the need to cry for nerfs, sorry "balancing"
As far as I can read, GWF isn't over performing in PvP and that should be the only reason ppl come on the forums to QQ for balance, everything else is jealousy of another class or players who are better than them.
If a GWF comes into my party, adds some good DPS and can survive a few blows, great I say. Instead of being jealous I am happy to have a constructive team member.
If a GWF comes into my party, adds some good DPS and can survive a few blows, great I say. Instead of being jealous I am happy to have a constructive team member.
This is a very shallow understanding of where the game is at.
The current state of the game (the module that is TONG, including the best equipment and the chance to get the holy grail (the 1000000AD Ultimate Enchanting Stone) is dominated by DCs, tanks, and GWFs.
Some have gone to great effort to explain why it doesn't necessarily have to be this way, but there is a very, very good reason why it is this way. Simply put, the safest, best result is support that massively boosts DPS (DCs, tanks and CW/MoFs), and 1 or 2 DPS to channel that - where GWF is very, very clearly the obvious choice for DPS. It's not even the clear DPS advantage that the GWF enjoys. The fact that they're so much tougher than SWs, TRs and CWs also counts for a lot. The GWF shines at single target, mobs, and taking hits. Talk about having to be non-ranged is meaningless. I have done 100s and 100s of runs, and it's practically *never* the GWF that is respawning at the campfire, unless the rest of the DPS is already there. Guys (not lantern22), we're not stupid, and please stop trying to talk up non-ranged, as if it's a compensating issue.
*Right now*, TONG has 60 players, with 5 non-DPS CWs (MoFs), 10 GWFs, 0 DPS CWs, and a slew on DCs and tanks. This is VERY typical.
Bottom line: This module has failed terribly to deliver a fair and equitable playing experience across the classes. The GWF has been the clearly dominant DPS class for over 2 years now, and since they've finally released tougher content that has encouraged the formation of optimal parties, this fact has finally become very, very clear.
Yeah, I don't like talk of nerfs either, but the current state of the game is now marginalizing non-GWF DPS classes for content, gear and good drops- which is an even worse kind of nerf.
People sayingg both GWF need to get nerfed and CW/other classes to get buffed. All in all, you just want GWF to be at the same place you claim your class to be, right ? It's either one or none, on the supposition CW and such are worse than GWF, if you buff CW to his level then you bring choice, nerf also GWF and you just reverse the actual problem
I have two wishes/requirements: * All classes should have same desirability for the endgame dungeons * Game should not be completely trivial
If this can be achieved without nerfing the GWFs, I am happy with that. However, I suspect that if they boost everyones abilities and powers so they match the GWF for desirability in end dungeons, the game will become trivial.
So I suspect that a nerf will be needed for the GWFs to reach both goals.
Another nerf thread, boring, get over it ppl and move on I say.
if you have nothing constructive to add then move on yourself
You think you have added anything constructive to this thread? Your posts are barely legible and full of spurious claims.
GWF is fine enough as it is. I might not support buffing the class but I sure as hell won't join a nerf hungry lynch mob. Can't see how it affects your gameplay so much in PvE that you feel the need to cry for nerfs, sorry "balancing"
As far as I can read, GWF isn't over performing in PvP and that should be the only reason ppl come on the forums to QQ for balance, everything else is jealousy of another class or players who are better than them.
If a GWF comes into my party, adds some good DPS and can survive a few blows, great I say. Instead of being jealous I am happy to have a constructive team member.
Says the guy that literally had nothing constructive to add to the topic...trololol
To be honest I'd be willing to lose 30% of my DPS for a complete rework of the class. GWF is boring as hell
I spent no time in this thread but the first comment. I own a GWF and a CW as mains (12kish, with companions). They are fine like they are, if you want challenge play naked (in game)
I was exaggerating. Sure his current only path is fine, but what I meant is there is only one viable path, one viable build, there is no use in loadouts besides weapon/armor enchantments, and the viable powers are extremely limited. And then comes the balance, buffing some powers may make him too strong that's an evidence.
Says the guy that literally had nothing constructive to add to the topic...trololol
Says the guy whose first comment was a meaningless personal attack. Since the beginning all you do is claiming your opinion to be the only right one and every single time someone argues about your comments, or even say one tiny thing different than your opinion you just spam Disagree button and just state things out of nowhere.
I guess that's what defines a hater. Stop bringing your hate here, else this thread is gonna be sadly closed, there are some people here trying to debate.
2
lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
If a GWF comes into my party, adds some good DPS and can survive a few blows, great I say. Instead of being jealous I am happy to have a constructive team member.
This is a very shallow understanding of where the game is at.
The current state of the game (the module that is TONG, including the best equipment and the chance to get the holy grail (the 1000000AD Ultimate Enchanting Stone) is dominated by DCs, tanks, and GWFs.
Some have gone to great effort to explain why it doesn't necessarily have to be this way, but there is a very, very good reason why it is this way. Simply put, the safest, best result is support that massively boosts DPS (DCs, tanks and CW/MoFs), and 1 or 2 DPS to channel that - where GWF is very, very clearly the obvious choice for DPS. It's not even the clear DPS advantage that the GWF enjoys. The fact that they're so much tougher than SWs, TRs and CWs also counts for a lot. The GWF shines at single target, mobs, and taking hits. Talk about having to be non-ranged is meaningless. I have done 100s and 100s of runs, and it's practically *never* the GWF that is respawning at the campfire, unless the rest of the DPS is already there. Guys (not lantern22), we're not stupid, and please stop trying to talk up non-ranged, as if it's a compensating issue.
*Right now*, TONG has 60 players, with 5 non-DPS CWs (MoFs), 10 GWFs, 0 DPS CWs, and a slew on DCs and tanks. This is VERY typical.
Bottom line: This module has failed terribly to deliver a fair and equitable playing experience across the classes. The GWF has been the clearly dominant DPS class for over 2 years now, and since they've finally released tougher content that has encouraged the formation of optimal parties, this fact has finally become very, very clear.
Yeah, I don't like talk of nerfs either, but the current state of the game is now marginalizing non-GWF DPS classes for content, gear and good drops- which is an even worse kind of nerf.
Nerfing GWF isn't the answer imo.
This thread is about GWF Vs Mages - CW's have a viable role as buffers, GWFs dont. If you gimp their DPS role then they have nothing. Not sure about SW.
If other DPS are being overlooked because they are HAMSTER at single target DPS, then how does nerfing the GWF so it is HAMSTER as well make the state of the game great. Why not look at improving the single target DPS for some of the other classes. If we just keep nerfing every class that is at the top then we all end up in a pile of HAMSTER at the bottom.
If ppl want to talk about how the need for control should be brought back, how the need for healing should be brought back - they are great ideas, but this isn't what ppl are saying. They are complaining about GWFs being at the top of DPS and want them cut down.
Finally, you know its not just non-DPS being excluded from Tong. Nowdays it seems that ppl ask for OPs not "tanks" but you don't see the GFs come complaining en-masse on the forums.
Maybe complain about how dungeons are put together these days, how there is no need to control adds in boss fights etc. but this isn't the right thread for that, its purely a HAMSTER and moan thread about GWFs and asking for nerfs.
To be honest I'd be willing to lose 30% of my DPS for a complete rework of the class. GWF is boring as hell
I spent no time in this thread but the first comment. I own a GWF and a CW as mains (12kish, with companions). They are fine like they are, if you want challenge play naked (in game)
I was exaggerating. Sure his current only path is fine, but what I meant is there is only one viable path, one viable build, there is no use in loadouts besides weapon/armor enchantments, and the viable powers are extremely limited. And then comes the balance, buffing some powers may make him too strong that's an evidence.
Says the guy that literally had nothing constructive to add to the topic...trololol
Says the guy whose first comment was a meaningless personal attack. Since the beginning all you do is claiming your opinion to be the only right one and every single time someone argues about your comments, or even say one tiny thing different than your opinion you just spam Disagree button and just state things out of nowhere.
I guess that's what defines a hater. Stop bringing your hate here, else this thread is gonna be sadly closed, there are some people here trying to debate.
My opinion just happens to be MANY PEOPLES OPINIONS. Open your eyes.
Talk about meaningless, your comments are drivvel. At least I attempt to explain my point, all you do is boo hoo GWF is good no nerf here boo hoo.
I get a kick out of players like you that are either too oblivious, too blind or too afraid to acknowledge when things don't fit your mindset.
The entire point of the disagree button is to show that you disagree with a post...well you can see exactly what I don't agree with just as you would see what I do agree with if you actually looked.
You don't like me posting what loads of other players have posted over and over for quite some time now? I have a simple solution for you...Don't read my posts. There, solved.
If you were actually trying to debate logically you wouldn't be boo hooing non stop. Maybe then your posts might be taken seriously, until then you have no credibility.
If a GWF comes into my party, adds some good DPS and can survive a few blows, great I say. Instead of being jealous I am happy to have a constructive team member.
This is a very shallow understanding of where the game is at.
The current state of the game (the module that is TONG, including the best equipment and the chance to get the holy grail (the 1000000AD Ultimate Enchanting Stone) is dominated by DCs, tanks, and GWFs.
Some have gone to great effort to explain why it doesn't necessarily have to be this way, but there is a very, very good reason why it is this way. Simply put, the safest, best result is support that massively boosts DPS (DCs, tanks and CW/MoFs), and 1 or 2 DPS to channel that - where GWF is very, very clearly the obvious choice for DPS. It's not even the clear DPS advantage that the GWF enjoys. The fact that they're so much tougher than SWs, TRs and CWs also counts for a lot. The GWF shines at single target, mobs, and taking hits. Talk about having to be non-ranged is meaningless. I have done 100s and 100s of runs, and it's practically *never* the GWF that is respawning at the campfire, unless the rest of the DPS is already there. Guys (not lantern22), we're not stupid, and please stop trying to talk up non-ranged, as if it's a compensating issue.
*Right now*, TONG has 60 players, with 5 non-DPS CWs (MoFs), 10 GWFs, 0 DPS CWs, and a slew on DCs and tanks. This is VERY typical.
Bottom line: This module has failed terribly to deliver a fair and equitable playing experience across the classes. The GWF has been the clearly dominant DPS class for over 2 years now, and since they've finally released tougher content that has encouraged the formation of optimal parties, this fact has finally become very, very clear.
Yeah, I don't like talk of nerfs either, but the current state of the game is now marginalizing non-GWF DPS classes for content, gear and good drops- which is an even worse kind of nerf.
Nerfing GWF isn't the answer imo.
This thread is about GWF Vs Mages - CW's have a viable role as buffers, GWFs dont. If you gimp their DPS role then they have nothing. Not sure about SW.
If other DPS are being overlooked because they are HAMSTER at single target DPS, then how does nerfing the GWF so it is HAMSTER as well make the state of the game great. Why not look at improving the single target DPS for some of the other classes. If we just keep nerfing every class that is at the top then we all end up in a pile of HAMSTER at the bottom.
If ppl want to talk about how the need for control should be brought back, how the need for healing should be brought back - they are great ideas, but this isn't what ppl are saying. They are complaining about GWFs being at the top of DPS and want them cut down.
Finally, you know its not just non-DPS being excluded from Tong. Nowdays it seems that ppl ask for OPs not "tanks" but you don't see the GFs come complaining en-masse on the forums.
Maybe complain about how dungeons are put together these days, how there is no need to control adds in boss fights etc. but this isn't the right thread for that, its purely a HAMSTER and moan thread about GWFs and asking for nerfs.
You obviously haven't been reading the comments. A large majority of the comments here have absolutely nothing to do with nerf cause GWF DPS. The comment you chose to quote even specifically states one of those points but you just convienantly ignored that part just like every other person trying to twist what people are saying. You want meaningful debate, then stop ignoring entire aspects of the conversation and stop trying to twist the intent of comments. Until you all stop doing that your comments are meaningless.
As I so very clearly stated the GWF becomes immune to NEARLY all negative effects in the game. I call BS on your arguement. Show me where in any zone/dungeon where a cc or negative effect overpowers unstoppable (with the exception of chult/tong and in the baphomet weekly) as I will acknowledge that there is some (again as I so very plainly stated) negative effects that affect the GWF. Once again it would seem that if you truly are getting affected "all the time" then you are playing your toon wrong.
FBI or Svardborg Manticore poison flip. eSP eye stun. IG Flamethrowers (not technically a hard CC, but they will pause your attacks, even in Unstoppable).
These cheat other class' CC immunity, including GF shield or Villain's Menace and AA.
Finally, you know its not just non-DPS being excluded from Tong. Nowdays it seems that ppl ask for OPs not "tanks" but you don't see the GFs come complaining en-masse on the forums.
That's not exactly the best comparison.
OPs have way more team utility than most tanking GFs and are, without a doubt, the better tank. It so happens that desperation of finding any tank usually outweighs ultimate utility for most teams, as, without a tank (or a bunch of DCs), you've already lost vs. Ra Nsi.
And, besides, excluded or not, Trolling poor butthurt GWFs in teams is worth more than any amount of UESs.
Not the same case for CW. Let's face it, there's 20 million DPSers lining up to run T9G. If a team has all supports and, chances are, they'll look for easymodo DPS, which happens to be GWF.
Post edited by rjc9000 on
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lukejones77Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 282Arc User
If a GWF comes into my party, adds some good DPS and can survive a few blows, great I say. Instead of being jealous I am happy to have a constructive team member.
... Yeah, I don't like talk of nerfs either, but the current state of the game is now marginalizing non-GWF DPS classes for content, gear and good drops- which is an even worse kind of nerf.
Nerfing GWF isn't the answer imo.
I never actually asked for a GWF nerf - just pointed out that non-GWF DPS classes are effectively nerfed.
This thread is about GWF Vs Mages - CW's have a viable role as buffers, GWFs dont. If you gimp their DPS role then they have nothing. Not sure about SW.
You remember the big "class rebalancing" they did many months ago, where they reworked different paragon paths to make them better choices, and left the CW and GWF for last? Well, some DEVs left the company about that time, and they never ended up touching the GWF or CW. The DPS CW paragon tree is (was) a very popular choice for players. The DEVs offer it, players work hard at it, and it should be a viable option. Likewise, alternative GWF builds were supposed to have been made viable. The issue here is that the DEVs never finished what they started.
.. If ppl want to talk about how the need for control should be brought back, how the need for healing should be brought back - they are great ideas, but this isn't what ppl are saying. They are complaining about GWFs being at the top of DPS and want them cut down.
People will do that, but all they want is a fair go. If you think back to all the troubled DEV challenges over the years, what's the likelihood that the DEVs might actually implement an easy solution, vs a complicated alternative class buffing and content buffing that leaves classes balanced yet the GWF untouched? Personally I hope the DEVs do a complicated solution that doesn't nerf. In truth, any method DEVs use to rebalance is effectively a nerf to GWF dominance. It would be nice if GWFs could continue to maintain the same "playability feel" after balancing, but if that sought after feeling is that you can smash everything as if you were playing a solo game - that needs to go.
Finally, you know its not just non-DPS being excluded from Tong. Nowdays it seems that ppl ask for OPs not "tanks" but you don't see the GFs come complaining en-masse on the forums.
Ok, time for another quick "nine gods" look... 90 players currently in there. DCs - 36 Pallies - 17 GWFs - 15 GFs - 9 HRs - 4 SWs - 2 TRs - 2 non-DPS CW (MoF) - 3 DPS CW - 2
Whatever we conjecture about ranged vs melee, single target vs mob etc etc constant checking of TONG shows very clear problems. In the context of DPS CW vs Mage (aka this thread), there's a very clear pattern that the GWF is much, much more desirable than a DPS CW. Remember, CWs queue as a DPS class in this game, and, at the very least, the DPS CW build should be a viable choice.
Maybe complain about how dungeons are put together these days, how there is no need to control adds in boss fights etc. but this isn't the right thread for that, its purely a HAMSTER and moan thread about GWFs and asking for nerfs.
Sure, but perhaps avoid the "moaning" accusation. Remember how badly GWFs moaned, and what happened over 2 years ago with module 6? The DEVs flipped the situation, there was a mass player defection, and power creep saw the pro-GWF imbalance get worse and worse over time. Today GWFs use the word "moaning" a lot, but it was their own moaning that created the situation others now moan about
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lantern22Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,111Arc User
@lukejones77 - I agree with most of what you are saying, if perhaps not all of it completely. I'm not targeting you with any of my comments, they are just general comments against what I perceive as the general gist of this thread. Hell, I'm not even referring to Bodini72.
Those stats show 9 GWFs, there are 10 other DPS types, so only half the spots are taken up with GWFs. Given they are purely a DPS class, maybe that's not so bad, not sure. Maybe the problem isn't with GWFs, maybe its with the DCs - 36, cause they are taking up a DPS spot - again not sure. Do we know what percentage of DPS toons are GWFs? Without this the numbers could be misleading. If there are twice as many end game GWFs then . . . . .
Lets look at the tanks - there are twice as many OPs as GF's. Is that right?
Unfortunately there will always be a meta that leaves some classes out as players try and optimise the team, someone will always be unhappy. For this very reason I have GF, DC, CW and GWF toons that I can turn to when one class gets shut out.
tbh, I can't believe I'm actually sticking up for the GWF class, its making me feel schizophrenic, so I am going to stop it now.
@rjc9000 - point taken, now can you pop into the Companion thread in the PvE section and nominate some good companions for DCs, I need some advice for mine.
As the person who started this thread I actually expected it to die....but it didn't....
At the very least it proves that people feel there is a problem......
As I am not end game I can't really know what is happening in tong or the harder dungeons, however my SW is 11K now so maybe I'll find out soon....
what I have being hearing is that the harder dungeon's is more about dps and players are finding was other ways to get the dps so they can finish the dungeon...in some cases in 15 minutes....
so if players have to make a new ways to finish dungeon's that exclude other classes.....how is that not a problem for those that said there is not a problem.....
Yes I can ERQ when I unlock the last dungeon but will I be able to finish....the talk here is no I wont...because people who have just the right item level can't finish unless the others in the group have 1000k or more item level higher....
just like the spider dungeon when your item level is at 8.4k.....
Wow , 2 Warlocks.. might be a mistake If I try to catch a random Tong these days or follow the chat, it got a 0,01% chance to get inside as main dps. And the reason it is like that is that I run the wrong class. The main problem I see with the unfinished classbalance is more a lasting disbalance towards supporter classes with massive buffs since ever. This is the main reason why we are where we are, reading all day: "LFM Tong, OP-2xDC, mof/buf GF, GWF". the setup for easy mode Tong is near allways 1 dps and 4 buffer. If it was 1 tank 1 DC/Support and 3 dps we would not argue at all.
Wow , 2 Warlocks.. might be a mistake If I try to catch a random Tong these days or follow the chat, it got a 0,01% chance to get inside as main dps. And the reason it is like that is that I run the wrong class. The main problem I see with the unfinished classbalance is more a lasting disbalance towards supporter classes with massive buffs since ever. This is the main reason why we are where we are, reading all day: "LFM Tong, OP-2xDC, mof/buf GF, GWF". the setup for easy mode Tong is near allways 1 dps and 4 buffer. If it was 1 tank 1 DC/Support and 3 dps we would not argue at all.
Also, those SW/TR/CW that were lucky enough to get a Tong slot probably have a social/guild group they play with that can bear with their less-than-maximum performance. Or they are part of 'newbie' groups that have no chance whatsoever to make it.
My message to Cryptic regarding the new dungeon in mod 13 is very clear: No Thanks! Please do not waste your time making another dungeon that only a small subset of the player mass can use. Rather spend the time fixing the class imbalance!
Wow , 2 Warlocks.. might be a mistake If I try to catch a random Tong these days or follow the chat, it got a 0,01% chance to get inside as main dps. And the reason it is like that is that I run the wrong class. The main problem I see with the unfinished classbalance is more a lasting disbalance towards supporter classes with massive buffs since ever. This is the main reason why we are where we are, reading all day: "LFM Tong, OP-2xDC, mof/buf GF, GWF". the setup for easy mode Tong is near allways 1 dps and 4 buffer. If it was 1 tank 1 DC/Support and 3 dps we would not argue at all.
Also, those SW/TR/CW that were lucky enough to get a Tong slot probably have a social/guild group they play with that can bear with their less-than-maximum performance. Or they are part of 'newbie' groups that have no chance whatsoever to make it.
My message to Cryptic regarding the new dungeon in mod 13 is very clear: No Thanks! Please do not waste your time making another dungeon that only a small subset of the player mass can use. Rather spend the time fixing the class imbalance!
Tbh, those player build up their group by semself or get a ticket by someone that simply ignores the actual meta. In case you can´t find a second DC a templock is sometimes the "second choice". I think to some degree it is true that my class is behind others regarding aoe, single dps, tankyness.
But what really hurts this game most is the omnipresent demand for those buffer groups. DC-DC-OP etc
I started to boon-up my Pally, and if I compare that class with any other, it is like driving a Hummer vs a VW-Jetta. Good dps, good protector, good buffer, autothread generation.. and the best of all, I do not have to think one minute about a tank setup. I can go all way dps route and tank content with ease (I plan to get archon armada), tanking is a thing this class does in addition with ease. My GF has got a tanksetup, every piece of equip, every companion (rustmonster, Dancing Shield, Chicken, etc.), balanced stats regarding DR, deflect and LS, to get through content. Even doing so I die, even shielding and paying attention I die... Same problem with my warlock, unneded simple as that. So I run my DC all day in Tong. lfm: "OP-DC-DC-OP-DC-DC-OP-DC-DC-OP-DC-DC-OP-DC-DC-OP-DC-DC-OP-DC-DC-OP-DC-DC-OP-DC-DC-OP-DC" booooring
Tong 15.11.2017 23:14
35 DC 18 OP 20 GWF 12 GF 10 CW 3TR 3 Hunter 1 warlock
If you solve that puzzle you can say approximately: 20 tanks: 18 OP´s and 2 GF´s are tanking. 2.+3. 2xbuffer: 15 parties run double DC, 4xDC+GF, 1xDC+templock 4. buffer or dps: 5xGF, 3xHunter,3xTR, 10x CW 5. dps: 20 GWF
not much to say or argue at that point, Cryptic excludet a huge part of it´s playbase from endcontent in case they do not run supporter classes, CW might have problems, warlocks are ten times bigger
@schietindebux I don't think Cryptic excluded a majority of the player base from ToNG. The dungeon is duable with 3 dps, if one of the DPS is a moderate buffer or healer. I have been in a lot of runs featuring only 1 DC, but the we had a SW or CW/MoF as secondary buffer and two DPS. If you are willing to spend some time, this can be an interresting, a challenge and can safely be done in 60 minutes. This in turn means, Cryptic provided an endgame dungeon, that is hard, solvable and this experience is available to a pretty wide player base. There are a lot of people that are willing to take on a long dungeon for the experience and fun to solve it with friends, just think about how often here in forums people ask to bring back old Castle Never, an 1.5hr experience (which I never had).
The problem lies in a huge part in the player base and what the people want to do, and that is farming ToNG. I know players that run 5-10 ToNG's every day in order to outfit alts and to get the UES. These are serious grinders and min/max'ers. Some of them actually put action point jewels into companion gear, just to get the IL increase. For them the experience is not the issue, they had it, but time is essential for them, since they want to become IL 18K+ as fast as possible. If you are realistic, this is not needed at all in NW. Unparalelled/R14 enchants are not necessary for any of the content, people just want them. I don't exclude myself from that, but there is also a difference between open channel runs with unknown people and guild/alliance rainbow runs, with actual voice chat. When I run with friends, the interaction is more important, when I run with open channels efficiency is more importent to me (Lfm HPDS/OP last boss ToNG is my favorite message in open channels right now).
I think Cryptic done its job, the dungeon can be solved by any rainbow group running it, but you can not blame Cryptic for the mindset of the player base, deciding to grind it and get max gear that is actually not necessary for the game.
PzkwVI_Kingtiger - GWF
PMS-Extreme - Moffus Debuffos
Tiamat's Toyboy - OP
Rent-A-DC - 1 GMOP per 30 minutes
Officer at Civil Anarchy, Member of Fabled Alliance
2
lukejones77Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 282Arc User
@schietindebux I don't think Cryptic excluded a majority of the player base from ToNG. The dungeon is duable with 3 dps, if one of the DPS is a moderate buffer or healer. I have been in a lot of runs featuring only 1 DC, but the we had a SW or CW/MoF as secondary buffer and two DPS. If you are willing to spend some time, this can be an interresting, a challenge and can safely be done in 60 minutes. This in turn means, Cryptic provided an endgame dungeon, that is hard, solvable and this experience is available to a pretty wide player base. There are a lot of people that are willing to take on a long dungeon for the experience and fun to solve it with friends, just think about how often here in forums people ask to bring back old Castle Never, an 1.5hr experience (which I never had).
The problem lies in a huge part in the player base and what the people want to do, and that is farming ToNG. I know players that run 5-10 ToNG's every day in order to outfit alts and to get the UES. These are serious grinders and min/max'ers. Some of them actually put action point jewels into companion gear, just to get the IL increase. For them the experience is not the issue, they had it, but time is essential for them, since they want to become IL 18K+ as fast as possible. If you are realistic, this is not needed at all in NW. Unparalelled/R14 enchants are not necessary for any of the content, people just want them. I don't exclude myself from that, but there is also a difference between open channel runs with unknown people and guild/alliance rainbow runs, with actual voice chat. When I run with friends, the interaction is more important, when I run with open channels efficiency is more importent to me (Lfm HPDS/OP last boss ToNG is my favorite message in open channels right now).
I think Cryptic done its job, the dungeon can be solved by any rainbow group running it, but you can not blame Cryptic for the mindset of the player base, deciding to grind it and get max gear that is actually not necessary for the game.
Disagree.
I've direct experience, multiple times, of groups failing with 2-3 squishy DPS, and then stomping through TONG when they swapped out their DPS CW for a lower gear level GWF. We're talking experienced players from a guild that play together. It's really, really obvious, that not only does the GWF do greater damage, but it also is simply a lot tougher, with much better survivability. When you sit down and design your DPS classes, you'd think that if you give one of the DPS classes superior damage, it would also come with a counter balance like being more squishy, right? Well it's the exact opposite with the GWF. It's got superior damage, can do single target, can do mobs, and has the highest toughness of the DPS classes. THAT is the reason TONG is so full of support buffers and GWFs.
I also disagree with your idea that it's ok if a rainbow party takes 3-4 times longer, and enjoys the satisfaction of a tougher accomplishment, and that the problem is the player base itself for wanting to adopt a grinding attitude and work for the better gear and drops. You understand that this game works by players grinding, right? You get that a couple of times each year players get a new module, centered on a new dungeon, that they farm? This is what the game is. This is how it works. The DEVs have made the new best gear be only available by farming the new dungeon. The DEVs effectively nerfed the bonding stones and BIS-nature of enchants, requiring you to get back to BIS by farming the new dungeon for ultimate enchants. The DEVs have made the big AD earner the ultimate enchanting stone - available to those that farm the new dungeon. Also, the DEVs have allowed a situation to arise, where, amongst the DPS options in forming parties, the GWF has a very significant advantage, which is very, very clearly shown when you regularly check the composition of TONG parties.
By all means, form yourself a party that is a challenging combination for TONG, and go have an hour's fun achieving that challenge. Understand though, that this is a grinding game, and the large imbalance between the GWF and the squishy DPS classes is a very serious problem for players that like to predominantly play their class designed for inferior damage and squishiness.
I really want to know where all these notions of GWF being OP comes from. I have played a GWF for a while now and I'm squishy as hell and I never make top DPS in instances when there's a slightly higher IL DPS of a different class in there with me. I mean if the class was OP then I should still out DPS those guys right? Yes we are tougher but we have to stand on top of bosses to hit them. We're a melee class, not ranged. We need to be tough because we soak up 10 times as much damage as ranged classes. And even though we're tougher I can tell you we're still squishy for where we need to be. Some boss fights you just don't do without a good healer as a GWF because you can't.
People look at a few top geared GWF's with transcendent enchants in all slots and they cry "He's too OP!". Put any of the other DPS classes in similar gear and it will be a close thing I tell you.
Comments
I have to stay in melee because my powers force me to do so. 2 out of my encounter are in need of melee range at trash (PoP and AoH ), +/- one At Will.
At bosses it´s not like that, only one encounter needs melee, and one AT Will (HoB used by some player).
GWF uses:
a. Hidden Daggers (no melee range needed)
b. Daring Shout (melee range)
c. some go Battle Fury (no melee range) most go IBS at mobs and bosses
d. rest is WMS/SS
From my pov you HAVE to stay in melee/mid at EVERY single boss in Tong because those fights are designed like that, maybe except first one, at 2. you simply die in a corner and at 3. you simply buff the souls by not standing in melee and wipe your hole group till someone kicks you.
Beside the fact that some buffs are hard to get in a corner of that dungeon except TI, HG, ITF and FF.
And that´s what it was like all the way to mod 12... you did not know about that?
Where do you find the DC and OP ? In the mid.
Where do I get buffs? in the mid.
DC: Devine Glow, DR buff, + devine buff, Powerbuffs fom BoB 15`? and AA, Breaking the spirit... forgot think it was 20`, Gift of Haste
OP: Aura of courage 30` , Beacon of hope, Radiant Champion 30`, flash of light, Aura Gift 25% powerbuff 30`
That´s about OP´s Circle of Power you have stay in to get some of those powerbuffs and speedbuffs, not all.
> if you're not liking that a gelatinous cube or a rage drake isn't burning down a 13k gwf then for example, then I would just wonder why you would want your ranged DPS class to need to stand as close to them to attack like a gwf has to.
>
> Not sure if I got that right ?
> I have to stay in melee because my powers force me to do so. 2 out of my encounter are in need of melee range at trash (PoP and AoH ), +/- one At Will.
> At bosses it´s not like that, only one encounter needs melee, and one AT Will (HoB used by some player).
>
> GWF uses:
> a. Hidden Daggers (no melee range needed)
> b. Daring Shout (melee range)
> c. some go Battle Fury (no melee range) most go IBS at mobs and bosses
> d. rest is WMS/SS
> Beside the fact that some buffs are hard to get in a corner of that dungeon ex
> And that´s what it was like all the way to mod 12... you did not know about that?
> Where do you find the DC and OP ? In the mid.
> Where do I get buffs? in the mid.
>
> DC: Devine Glow, DR buff, + devine buff, Powerbuffs fom BoB 15`? and AA, Breaking the spirit... forgot think it was 20`, Gift of Haste
> OP: Aura of courage 30` , Beacon of hope, Radiant Champion 30`, flash of light, Aura Gift 25% powerbuff 30`
>
> That´s about OP´s Circle of Power you have stay in to get some of those powerbuffs and speedbuffs, not all.
I won't get into tomb simply because I haven't done it myself, but come on man(assuming). those spells force you to be in melee range? sw needs some work, but the option, since you have one, to be up close or far away on trash is the last place to have frustrations.
something every DPS main should learn to accept is that you're not always going to get the buffs, and you're surely not getting 100% uptime. gwf goes through this as well. ideally I want to be standing in PoP everytime it's used, but it's rare that I do get that chance, except some bosses or specific trash pulls.
any buff/debuff dc worth their salt is sniping with DG, BoB/AA/BtS take a bit more timing but usually after a gear check done at the very beginning of a dungeon, priority goes to the top dps, which imo is fair. that doesn't always mean the gwf either.
Nerf was never a "sensible" thing. Never. And it should never be called "sensible"..
And its the GWF that destroys the fun in Tong and the future dungeons??? Not the fact that orcus got way to much hp to kill him with "fun"? Not the fact that tong can be cleared in every constellation if the group knows what to do, but it will be too hard for casuals espacially with this "nice" bounding nerf? Not the fact that the shortest tong run ever was without an GWF or a CW?? But to make the game fun again for all classes, you have to nerf the GWF?? Srly??? Where does this GWF hate come from?
We need balance!!! We dont need 90% of mobs controll immun! We dont need bosses with trillions of hp and no tactic!! We dont need bosses where you MUST have revieve scrolls because he is really bad designed!
We need dungoens with real boss tactics. Bosses with adds you have to controll, things you have to click, maybe adds you have to kite, good designed dungeons, good designed mobs/trash..etc. etc.
OH how i miss the good ole dungeons like FH or karundax...and oh how i miss to play my CW when you needed CC...but i dont miss the times when no one wanted a melee class in MC ( everyone knows why ^^) or in VT ( same as in MC) or in old CN or in any other dungoen when singu ruled all.
My first main class was a TR and after that it was a CW and everytime PW "balanced" theese classes ( example: You know why singu was nerfed?) to almost useless classes. Most of the time bc people said " make sensible nerfs plz". Great job....
Nice attempt and utter fail to cherry pick what I said and try to turn it into something else.
First off GWF isn't AMONG the top DPS classes? If you actually think this then you most certainly are playing yours wrong. Did I say they were the absolute best and only real DPS class? No, I didn't, so your comment is factually incorrect and ridiculous. Based on your own comment in your response to mentinmindmaker, your arguement about comparing a CC class to a (as you state it) pure dps class, you (GWF's) should be the end all be all top DPS in the game, but based off your comment to me about speed runs in tong that just isn't it.....
So which is it? GWF's are the only pure dps class and therefor shouold be best dps ever or are you just blowing smoke?
Your ignorant remark about what's an offtank shows you are just blowing smoke.
As I so very clearly stated the GWF becomes immune to NEARLY all negative effects in the game. I call BS on your arguement. Show me where in any zone/dungeon where a cc or negative effect overpowers unstoppable (with the exception of chult/tong and in the baphomet weekly) as I will acknowledge that there is some (again as I so very plainly stated) negative effects that affect the GWF. Once again it would seem that if you truly are getting affected "all the time" then you are playing your toon wrong.
Once again as I stated very plainly it isn't about the GWF being AMONG the top DPS classes as you are so conflicted about, but it is about everything I listed all in 1 class, 1 spec with the same gear worn all at the same time. Try to read beyond your own limitations and see the big picture.
Do I think the GWF should get a nerf? Short answer, yes.
It isn't as simple as that. Cryptic just released a mod nerfing our bondiings and several classes on the premise that the power creep is too much. Based on that (obvious lie, can we say money grab) then they absolutely need a nerf.
As I stated, I don't believe the nerf's put out were based on power creep (which is very very real) but a money grab so my feelings are that we need class balance and (again as I so plainly stated) if the GWF is considered a finished product then they need to be the basis for that adjustment.
If CC isn't going to be a real part of the game and therefor give real use to having CC capabilities then the classes that have it (CW,TR,HR) need to be adjusted to balance with the completely finished DPS product of the GWF class. I'll acknowledge the HR seems to be in a good place currently.
When I am playing my GWF, my DPS is often matched or surpasses by combat HR's, CW's, DPS GF and TR's, yes right skill TR's can wreck havoc on single targets like dragon flight, SVA, Orcus in CN and ToNG all other T2 dungeon bosses.
"IRONY ON" Since these classes can out DPS GWF's shouldn't they be nerfed first? "IRONY OFF"
Single target DPS CW, well ask Sharpedge. Make a single target MoF loadout for boss fights and use focused wizardry feat, icy rays on TAB, desintegrate, fanning the flame and conduit of ice, talents chilling presence/swath or critical conf. You will be surprised about the CW single target DPS and with the right skills you will make more then enough GWF's cry.
You say GWF's are easy to play, well I would rephrase that and say, GWF's are the most forgiving and idiot proof class to play in PvE solo. That idiot proof is the reason for fueling the discussion about the mindless GWF's. People start playing them after they played other classes and find them easy to quest, but that changes with endgame.
When you play GWF, you have to push as many buttons as other classes, you have to micromanage you rotation so you do not looses your buffs from your own rotation since you have to manage different ICD's for daring shout mark, WMS, hidden daggers, IBS plus the duration time for unstoppable and last but not least destroyer's purpose. Then you manage your position and stay out of the red areas. After you managed all those you need to watch the buffs coming from DC's, MoF's, SW Templocks, GF and HR's (longstrider of course). Only after you learned all that, you will become an endgame GWF that can compete with the other DPS class. If you don't believe me, again the fastest ToNG runs did not need GWF's.
Coming back, this is true for all classes, learn how to play them, get your basic build right (ArmPen, Crit and Recovery for many classes) and you will do fine. Playing all the classes right and endgame ready, provides different challenges for every class, but it is not easy for any class.
And luckily the SW's get some love in MOD 13 and keep the fingers crossed for TR's.
As I have stated repeatidly, it isn't about the DPS. The GWF has several classes worth of abilities all rolled into one. It's called class balance for a reason. Your response is exactly why people keep talking about this. You like many other GWF's refuse to acknowledge the imbalance with the class in regards to other classes (aside from just straight DPS).
Moreover it is more than clear that some devs benefit either or other classes because certain classes are easier to play or by crying come from here either from the forum or from certain devil advocates.
This encourages the purchase of credit and gives the account holder a mediocre mentality to the point of creating holes to play certain aka 2dc + GWF dungeons and the REST.
This makes it impossible to farm with the class that likes to play and ends up with all the urge to play the game itself.
Actually this game each passing day becomes more of a psychological virus than something that MUST be fun since the sole purpose is to profit from the psychological weakness of one or the psychological motivation placed on others.
The issue is whether it is because of problems with the GWF or another FOTM class that dictates the rules of training for X or Y dungeons the problem will continue and it will continue as long as profits grow.
And before someone of them attack me first by the way I write I notice that English is not my mother tongue.
GWF is fine enough as it is. I might not support buffing the class but I sure as hell won't join a nerf hungry lynch mob. Can't see how it affects your gameplay so much in PvE that you feel the need to cry for nerfs, sorry "balancing"
As far as I can read, GWF isn't over performing in PvP and that should be the only reason ppl come on the forums to QQ for balance, everything else is jealousy of another class or players who are better than them.
If a GWF comes into my party, adds some good DPS and can survive a few blows, great I say. Instead of being jealous I am happy to have a constructive team member.
The current state of the game (the module that is TONG, including the best equipment and the chance to get the holy grail (the 1000000AD Ultimate Enchanting Stone) is dominated by DCs, tanks, and GWFs.
Some have gone to great effort to explain why it doesn't necessarily have to be this way, but there is a very, very good reason why it is this way. Simply put, the safest, best result is support that massively boosts DPS (DCs, tanks and CW/MoFs), and 1 or 2 DPS to channel that - where GWF is very, very clearly the obvious choice for DPS.
It's not even the clear DPS advantage that the GWF enjoys. The fact that they're so much tougher than SWs, TRs and CWs also counts for a lot. The GWF shines at single target, mobs, and taking hits.
Talk about having to be non-ranged is meaningless. I have done 100s and 100s of runs, and it's practically *never* the GWF that is respawning at the campfire, unless the rest of the DPS is already there. Guys (not lantern22), we're not stupid, and please stop trying to talk up non-ranged, as if it's a compensating issue.
*Right now*, TONG has 60 players, with 5 non-DPS CWs (MoFs), 10 GWFs, 0 DPS CWs, and a slew on DCs and tanks. This is VERY typical.
Bottom line: This module has failed terribly to deliver a fair and equitable playing experience across the classes. The GWF has been the clearly dominant DPS class for over 2 years now, and since they've finally released tougher content that has encouraged the formation of optimal parties, this fact has finally become very, very clear.
Yeah, I don't like talk of nerfs either, but the current state of the game is now marginalizing non-GWF DPS classes for content, gear and good drops- which is an even worse kind of nerf.
* All classes should have same desirability for the endgame dungeons
* Game should not be completely trivial
If this can be achieved without nerfing the GWFs, I am happy with that. However, I suspect that if they boost everyones abilities and powers so they match the GWF for desirability in end dungeons, the game will become trivial.
So I suspect that a nerf will be needed for the GWFs to reach both goals.
Says the guy that literally had nothing constructive to add to the topic...trololol
I guess that's what defines a hater. Stop bringing your hate here, else this thread is gonna be sadly closed, there are some people here trying to debate.
This thread is about GWF Vs Mages - CW's have a viable role as buffers, GWFs dont. If you gimp their DPS role then they have nothing. Not sure about SW.
If other DPS are being overlooked because they are HAMSTER at single target DPS, then how does nerfing the GWF so it is HAMSTER as well make the state of the game great. Why not look at improving the single target DPS for some of the other classes. If we just keep nerfing every class that is at the top then we all end up in a pile of HAMSTER at the bottom.
If ppl want to talk about how the need for control should be brought back, how the need for healing should be brought back - they are great ideas, but this isn't what ppl are saying. They are complaining about GWFs being at the top of DPS and want them cut down.
Finally, you know its not just non-DPS being excluded from Tong. Nowdays it seems that ppl ask for OPs not "tanks" but you don't see the GFs come complaining en-masse on the forums.
Maybe complain about how dungeons are put together these days, how there is no need to control adds in boss fights etc. but this isn't the right thread for that, its purely a HAMSTER and moan thread about GWFs and asking for nerfs.
My opinion just happens to be MANY PEOPLES OPINIONS. Open your eyes.
Talk about meaningless, your comments are drivvel. At least I attempt to explain my point, all you do is boo hoo GWF is good no nerf here boo hoo.
I get a kick out of players like you that are either too oblivious, too blind or too afraid to acknowledge when things don't fit your mindset.
The entire point of the disagree button is to show that you disagree with a post...well you can see exactly what I don't agree with just as you would see what I do agree with if you actually looked.
You don't like me posting what loads of other players have posted over and over for quite some time now? I have a simple solution for you...Don't read my posts. There, solved.
If you were actually trying to debate logically you wouldn't be boo hooing non stop. Maybe then your posts might be taken seriously, until then you have no credibility.
You obviously haven't been reading the comments. A large majority of the comments here have absolutely nothing to do with nerf cause GWF DPS. The comment you chose to quote even specifically states one of those points but you just convienantly ignored that part just like every other person trying to twist what people are saying. You want meaningful debate, then stop ignoring entire aspects of the conversation and stop trying to twist the intent of comments. Until you all stop doing that your comments are meaningless.
eSP eye stun.
IG Flamethrowers (not technically a hard CC, but they will pause your attacks, even in Unstoppable).
These cheat other class' CC immunity, including GF shield or Villain's Menace and AA. That's not exactly the best comparison.
OPs have way more team utility than most tanking GFs and are, without a doubt, the better tank. It so happens that desperation of finding any tank usually outweighs ultimate utility for most teams, as, without a tank (or a bunch of DCs), you've already lost vs. Ra Nsi.
And, besides, excluded or not, Trolling poor butthurt GWFs in teams is worth more than any amount of UESs.Not the same case for CW. Let's face it, there's 20 million DPSers lining up to run T9G. If a team has all supports and, chances are, they'll look for easymodo DPS, which happens to be GWF.
90 players currently in there.
DCs - 36
Pallies - 17
GWFs - 15
GFs - 9
HRs - 4
SWs - 2
TRs - 2
non-DPS CW (MoF) - 3
DPS CW - 2
Whatever we conjecture about ranged vs melee, single target vs mob etc etc constant checking of TONG shows very clear problems.
In the context of DPS CW vs Mage (aka this thread), there's a very clear pattern that the GWF is much, much more desirable than a DPS CW. Remember, CWs queue as a DPS class in this game, and, at the very least, the DPS CW build should be a viable choice. Sure, but perhaps avoid the "moaning" accusation. Remember how badly GWFs moaned, and what happened over 2 years ago with module 6? The DEVs flipped the situation, there was a mass player defection, and power creep saw the pro-GWF imbalance get worse and worse over time.
Today GWFs use the word "moaning" a lot, but it was their own moaning that created the situation others now moan about
Those stats show 9 GWFs, there are 10 other DPS types, so only half the spots are taken up with GWFs. Given they are purely a DPS class, maybe that's not so bad, not sure. Maybe the problem isn't with GWFs, maybe its with the DCs - 36, cause they are taking up a DPS spot - again not sure. Do we know what percentage of DPS toons are GWFs? Without this the numbers could be misleading. If there are twice as many end game GWFs then . . . . .
Lets look at the tanks - there are twice as many OPs as GF's. Is that right?
Unfortunately there will always be a meta that leaves some classes out as players try and optimise the team, someone will always be unhappy. For this very reason I have GF, DC, CW and GWF toons that I can turn to when one class gets shut out.
tbh, I can't believe I'm actually sticking up for the GWF class, its making me feel schizophrenic, so I am going to stop it now.
@rjc9000 - point taken, now can you pop into the Companion thread in the PvE section and nominate some good companions for DCs, I need some advice for mine.
As the person who started this thread I actually expected it to die....but it didn't....
At the very least it proves that people feel there is a problem......
As I am not end game I can't really know what is happening in tong or the harder dungeons, however my SW is 11K now so maybe I'll find out soon....
what I have being hearing is that the harder dungeon's is more about dps and players are finding was other ways to get the dps so they can finish the dungeon...in some cases in 15 minutes....
so if players have to make a new ways to finish dungeon's that exclude other classes.....how is that not a problem for those that said there is not a problem.....
Yes I can ERQ when I unlock the last dungeon but will I be able to finish....the talk here is no I wont...because people who have just the right item level can't finish unless the others in the group have 1000k or more item level higher....
just like the spider dungeon when your item level is at 8.4k.....
anyway whatever....
If I try to catch a random Tong these days or follow the chat, it got a 0,01% chance to get inside as main dps. And the reason it is like that is that I run the wrong class.
The main problem I see with the unfinished classbalance is more a lasting disbalance towards supporter classes with massive buffs since ever. This is the main reason why we are where we are, reading all day: "LFM Tong, OP-2xDC, mof/buf GF, GWF".
the setup for easy mode Tong is near allways 1 dps and 4 buffer.
If it was 1 tank 1 DC/Support and 3 dps we would not argue at all.
My message to Cryptic regarding the new dungeon in mod 13 is very clear: No Thanks! Please do not waste your time making another dungeon that only a small subset of the player mass can use. Rather spend the time fixing the class imbalance!
In case you can´t find a second DC a templock is sometimes the "second choice".
I think to some degree it is true that my class is behind others regarding aoe, single dps, tankyness.
But what really hurts this game most is the omnipresent demand for those buffer groups. DC-DC-OP etc
I started to boon-up my Pally, and if I compare that class with any other, it is like driving a Hummer vs a VW-Jetta.
Good dps, good protector, good buffer, autothread generation.. and the best of all, I do not have to think one minute about a tank setup. I can go all way dps route and tank content with ease (I plan to get archon armada), tanking is a thing this class does in addition with ease.
My GF has got a tanksetup, every piece of equip, every companion (rustmonster, Dancing Shield, Chicken, etc.), balanced stats regarding DR, deflect and LS, to get through content. Even doing so I die, even shielding and paying attention I die...
Same problem with my warlock, unneded simple as that.
So I run my DC all day in Tong.
lfm: "OP-DC-DC-OP-DC-DC-OP-DC-DC-OP-DC-DC-OP-DC-DC-OP-DC-DC-OP-DC-DC-OP-DC-DC-OP-DC-DC-OP-DC" booooring
Tong 15.11.2017 23:14
35 DC
18 OP
20 GWF
12 GF
10 CW
3TR
3 Hunter
1 warlock
If you solve that puzzle you can say approximately:
20 tanks: 18 OP´s and 2 GF´s are tanking.
2.+3. 2xbuffer: 15 parties run double DC, 4xDC+GF, 1xDC+templock
4. buffer or dps: 5xGF, 3xHunter,3xTR, 10x CW
5. dps: 20 GWF
not much to say or argue at that point, Cryptic excludet a huge part of it´s playbase from endcontent in case they do not run supporter classes, CW might have problems, warlocks are ten times bigger
This in turn means, Cryptic provided an endgame dungeon, that is hard, solvable and this experience is available to a pretty wide player base. There are a lot of people that are willing to take on a long dungeon for the experience and fun to solve it with friends, just think about how often here in forums people ask to bring back old Castle Never, an 1.5hr experience (which I never had).
The problem lies in a huge part in the player base and what the people want to do, and that is farming ToNG. I know players that run 5-10 ToNG's every day in order to outfit alts and to get the UES. These are serious grinders and min/max'ers. Some of them actually put action point jewels into companion gear, just to get the IL increase. For them the experience is not the issue, they had it, but time is essential for them, since they want to become IL 18K+ as fast as possible. If you are realistic, this is not needed at all in NW. Unparalelled/R14 enchants are not necessary for any of the content, people just want them.
I don't exclude myself from that, but there is also a difference between open channel runs with unknown people and guild/alliance rainbow runs, with actual voice chat. When I run with friends, the interaction is more important, when I run with open channels efficiency is more importent to me (Lfm HPDS/OP last boss ToNG is my favorite message in open channels right now).
I think Cryptic done its job, the dungeon can be solved by any rainbow group running it, but you can not blame Cryptic for the mindset of the player base, deciding to grind it and get max gear that is actually not necessary for the game.
I've direct experience, multiple times, of groups failing with 2-3 squishy DPS, and then stomping through TONG when they swapped out their DPS CW for a lower gear level GWF. We're talking experienced players from a guild that play together. It's really, really obvious, that not only does the GWF do greater damage, but it also is simply a lot tougher, with much better survivability. When you sit down and design your DPS classes, you'd think that if you give one of the DPS classes superior damage, it would also come with a counter balance like being more squishy, right? Well it's the exact opposite with the GWF. It's got superior damage, can do single target, can do mobs, and has the highest toughness of the DPS classes. THAT is the reason TONG is so full of support buffers and GWFs.
I also disagree with your idea that it's ok if a rainbow party takes 3-4 times longer, and enjoys the satisfaction of a tougher accomplishment, and that the problem is the player base itself for wanting to adopt a grinding attitude and work for the better gear and drops.
You understand that this game works by players grinding, right? You get that a couple of times each year players get a new module, centered on a new dungeon, that they farm? This is what the game is. This is how it works. The DEVs have made the new best gear be only available by farming the new dungeon. The DEVs effectively nerfed the bonding stones and BIS-nature of enchants, requiring you to get back to BIS by farming the new dungeon for ultimate enchants. The DEVs have made the big AD earner the ultimate enchanting stone - available to those that farm the new dungeon.
Also, the DEVs have allowed a situation to arise, where, amongst the DPS options in forming parties, the GWF has a very significant advantage, which is very, very clearly shown when you regularly check the composition of TONG parties.
By all means, form yourself a party that is a challenging combination for TONG, and go have an hour's fun achieving that challenge.
Understand though, that this is a grinding game, and the large imbalance between the GWF and the squishy DPS classes is a very serious problem for players that like to predominantly play their class designed for inferior damage and squishiness.
People look at a few top geared GWF's with transcendent enchants in all slots and they cry "He's too OP!". Put any of the other DPS classes in similar gear and it will be a close thing I tell you.