GWF and mage classes

sorcha

Hello....no idea you'll like anything I have to say but too bad....

I have being playing D&D for 20 years pen and paper....and I have a big gripe with the GWF.....how in the hell does a dude with a big sword out dps a mage class....

Like OMG WTF.......this is a huge insult to the spirit of the game.....

When I played pen and paper I never thought for a second that I could out damage a mage....never....

Could someone like explain to why a GWF out dps mage classes.....

you may think why MAGE not SW class.....all mage classes....CW as well....

nightstalkor

Welcome to the wild wonderful world of NW. It boils down to this.. a couple of years ago the TR's And GWF's pitched a fit about CW's ALWAYS outscoring them damage wise in dungeons etc., pretty much anywhere that was a group setting. So the devs super nerfed the CW class. It's so bad right now that MY 12k Plus CW takes longer to kill stuff (puts out less damage) and is less survivable than my 11.4 K GWF.
In fact, I was able to take my GWF into Cloaked Ascendancy at TEN Five K points NO PROBLEM. I STARTED the River District w/ my CW at ELEVEN three k (or so) and died several times w/in the space of a couple days. I then left the River Dist. and completed EVERY campaign track that I could, excepting storm king. Luckily for me the tyranny of dragons campaign got mod'ed about the same time, so I was easily able to max that tree out along w/ elemental evil.
I THEN went back to the River District at ELEVEN six or so, and I was survivable. Then the last double refining saw me spending the time to raise all my CW's enchants at least one level. My CW is now 12k two or so, and I STILL have to be careful in River District. I haven't tried the Kabul instance again, and when I last did, I could NOT complete it w/ my CW. the Kabul boss is acknowledged as a DPS character problem.
Meanwhile, my 11.4 GWF just tears through River. I can wade into anything now and not worry about dying at all. Might take me a while, looking forward to getting my GWF to 12k plus, but I went to Chult about a month ago w/ my CW, and haven't returned. Kept getting killed at TWELVE two. Fracking ridiculous.
So there ya go. Ranged classes get broke off here in NW. My recommendation to ANY new players would be to start w/ a GWF, a pally, or a TR. Learn the system and how to build up your toon, then try a ranged class. BTW, you think CW's have it bad, avoid Clerics. ICK.

zebular

sorcha#9865 said:

Hello....no idea you'll like anything I have to say but too bad....

I have being playing D&D for 20 years pen and paper....and I have a big gripe with the GWF.....how in the hell does a dude with a big sword out dps a mage class....

Like OMG WTF.......this is a huge insult to the spirit of the game.....

When I played pen and paper I never thought for a second that I could out damage a mage....never....

Could someone like explain to why a GWF out dps mage classes.....

you may think why MAGE not SW class.....all mage classes....CW as well....

First, I'm not saying things are balanced right in Neverwinter. I do believe your perception of PnP D&D is quite subjective however.

I've played D&D for over two decades. For the most part, melee classes had always out DPS'd mages. Yes, mages could do a lot of damage in one spell, over time, the melee classes, and even using ranged weapons, would be the ones dealing the most damage due to multiple attacks per round, critical damage, and they usually got the killing shots. Mages were slower to act, sometimes needing a round or more to prepare and get a big spell off and then they were limited to a set amount of spells per day, less if they could not memorize their spells that day, limited to what spells they had in their spellbook, and even getting interrupted.

While the melee classes always had some sort of weapon, even if it was only their hand or in impulse item picked up used as a weapon. The only mage class that seemed to deal more consistent damage was the Sorcerer, and even then they were limited to casting time, concentration, and known spells.

It wasn't until high level adventures that mages really could dish out damage, and even then, they had to deal with magic resistance, saving throws, casting times, concentration, and so forth. While at the same time, their melee and ranged counterparts had even more powerful weapons, feats, and so forth. I don't remember a time when I didn't know a mage player to take up some sort of melee or ranged weapon because they would always run into a situation where they were unable to do any spell damage.

Unknown

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ecrana

I can respect that the source of this game was pen & paper but...this is not a pen & paper version of D&D. It's a videogame adaptation of it and as such has it's own rules (even if the rules seem to be made up and altered on the fly sometimes).

It's no different than a movie based on a book. Some things translate. Some things don't. Some things fall victim to creative liberties.

preechr

Looking at things from the opposite side, what monster in all of Faerun would actually survive one or two hits from a 400 pound half-orc imbedding a 1.5 meter claymore in its head? Granted, nobody can actually reach most boss heads, but still, it seems somebody should have been able to chop off one of Orcus' legs at some point, which should probably affect the rest of that fight

lukejones77

Firstly, I don't think CWs should be dominant force, as per fantasy literature, just because they are masters of magic. I think that this is fundamentally an MMO game designed around a party completing an objective as a team, and therefore the DEVs have a duty of care to ensure that all classes are looked after and have relevancy.

But yes, over time they gave the GWF the best DPS, by far. They also gave GWFs the toughest survivability of DPS classes, and made them fast. Many GWFs use that speed to run ahead and dominate the damage chart and perception, being tough enough to not care about leaving the tank and healer behind.

It used to be that CWs were good at taking care of mobs (the journey to the boss), TRs were were excellent at high damage on single targets (the boss itself), and GWFs were good all-round damage.
Every class is supposed to bring something useful on the run - some kind of facet to the group that gives a party equal reason to bring any classes along, as long as the basic roles are covered.

Well, it's all gone wrong since mod 6/2 years ago. Some necessary corrections were made, but went too far. Many players left the game. Following that, class imbalances widened on a linear trajectory with power creep.
Things were unfair, but the content was easy, so, while players gradually exited the game, most groups were pretty happy to take anyone along, lessening the impact of class imbalances.
New players probably think that's how the game is meant to be. It's not. It's what the game became, due to balancing neglect.
A few really good theory crafters have learned how to make up much of the difference by maximizing buffs and debuffs (the truly dominant force in DPS - though the DEVs are soon cracking down on it), but the fundamental class designs are very biased.

With the latest mods, it got really sour. The DEVs finally brought in the challenging content people wanted, but they didn't fix the obvious class imbalances that existed. This has led to a situation where new tough content is domainated by parties formed from DCs and tanks to buff DPS to craziness - and that DPS choice is...... ta da ... the GWF. The bias to form TONG parties from DCs, tanks and a GWF is extraordinary.
Some complain that the class biases are the fault of players, and you don't *have* to take a GWF and a 2nd DC, but the truth is that the unbalanced theory crafting that is the state of Neverwinter, fundamentally promotes this situation.

The REAL bad we have now? The rarity and price of Ultimate Enchanting Stones. The DEVs have shifted the goal posts on BIS gear, extending rank 12 to rank 14, but with rank 14 requiring Ultimate Enchanting Stones to refine. These *only* drop from .... TONG!! So, tough luck to you if you're the average DPS CW, TR or SW, and blessed are you, if you are a DC, tank or GWF. Not only do you get a *much* easier ride though the current module, you also get a chance at the new hot item (Ultimate Enchanting Stone). Not only do you get all the latest best gear, much more easily, but statistically you also can get a free drop of the new hot item that you can sell to over 1000000 AD to those poor sub-classes that really aren't a part of the new module,as they struggle to get back to BIS status!

Was giving best DPS, + toughest survivability, + best speed to one class enough? Apparently not.
Most DPS CWs have now worked out that despite the awesome 20% damage of the Bapho set, it turns out that they're better of with the ability increasing gear (Int/Cha/Wis), and have switched to that.
So, when it comes to the best gear, is there a class that traditionally gets the best of both worlds? Great stats/damage *plus* the benefits of the ability increases?
Lets review:
From early times, the awesome Tenser disk mount. Not only awesome stat increases, but also GWF ability increases.
From the time of the Lostmauth set: Every DPS class had to have it (give up their ability increasing gear), but the GWF got the best of both worlds with the belt.
From the Bapho Set: Fantastic boss destroying damage bonus, and again, bumping up GWF abilities.

Since mod 6, every single "must have" dominant gear that has come out, has given the double benefit to GWFs. This isn't just a current balance issue for the DEVs to fix - it's actually a multi-year pattern of unbalanced "theory-crafted" system design.

kyle1234512

well if were going back to pen and paper reference.... i say im the GM and i say that ranged classes get better/stronger weapons on average.. why? because i say so. boom. now on paper they're all doing more or less similar numbers.

that 7000 power? i think it should be 12000 power.

it makes no sense to keep classes this far down on sheet dps when wizards cant set the city on fire... or rogues steal literally everything. etc etc

at some point you have to take a step back and come to the realization that its an mmo first, and a dnd experience second.

mentinmindmaker

Classes need to be tuned so they have equal value in the heaviest dungeons like Tong.

For the CW this means they need to be a fair amount of dps ABOVE the CWF, since the GWF is way more survivable and the CW is likely to spend more time as a floor decoration. Why bring a CW with way worse survivability unless it contributes more dps?

Low defense should be compensated by higher dps, and that is the way it generally is on most mmorpg's.

Only the NW devs managed to get it really wrong at some point.

c3rb3r3

CW has range and permanent controls, GWF has .. damages. That's all. So why should CW outscale a class that is only good at one thing ?

mentinmindmaker

Control matters very little the way the game has evolved, and a CW need to fight close up to have max dps.

And lets be honest: Value is measured in 1: dps 2:dps 3:dps and 4: survivability. Very little else matters in the endgame dungeons if you are not in the buff/debuff game.

GWF also got high survivability, which is a big advantage in the lethal environment in endgame zones.

It is actually the CW that only got dps.

lukejones77

c3rb3r3 said:

CW has range and permanent controls, GWF has .. damages. That's all. So why should CW outscale a class that is only good at one thing ?

That's the theory as it's supposed to be, but not how it currently is, or how it has been for a long time. Everything important is control-immune, and power creep got rid of party dependence on control. The reason so many GWFs run ahead of the Control, tanking and healing, is that they don't need it.
The range comment also isn't correct. The support non-DPS CWs can do it, but to be effective the DPS CWs need to be standing in the middle of the fight (Icy Terrain, Steal Time, Oppressive Force, Sudden Storm, and proximity to party-supplied buffs), where their squishiness counts badly against them.

Just look at the current meta of DCs, tanks and GWFs. Who brings the control? Who cares? Nobody.

Since the latest update, people have been pouring into TONG, I'm guessing because of the desperate need for Ultimate Enchanting Stones, and their extremely high AH price.
Right as this moment, showing a limit of 100 players, I count 3 DPS CWs (SpellStorms), with a a handful of support CWs (MoFs). A huge number of DCs and tanks. Make no mistake, the DPS CW was a very popular class role to play. Imbalances have just killed it off over time.

When you sort the TONG list by group, it's clear that Random queues are not being used (not taking 3 DPS, makes sense). Tanks also do huge damage these days, eroding the value of the DPS role. This clearly shows that for what matters, the balance is very bad for roles across the game, as well as within the DPS classes. It seems clear that the DEVs have either lost control of their class balance game design, or stopped caring.

If you're a DC tank or GWF, you're easily getting the latest and best gear. You're also on the path to getting back to BIS with rank 14 enchants using Ultimate Enchanting stones.
If you're SW, TR, or DPS CW, you are highly discriminated against, by both the DEVS with unbalanced design, and by people forming faster, more successful parties.

This module has come and will fade when the next arrives, but the effects of favoritism where players rebuilt their BIS rank 14 enchants along with the best gear, will live on.

sorcha

zebular said:

sorcha#9865 said:

Hello....no idea you'll like anything I have to say but too bad....

I have being playing D&D for 20 years pen and paper....and I have a big gripe with the GWF.....how in the hell does a dude with a big sword out dps a mage class....

Like OMG WTF.......this is a huge insult to the spirit of the game.....

When I played pen and paper I never thought for a second that I could out damage a mage....never....

Could someone like explain to why a GWF out dps mage classes.....

you may think why MAGE not SW class.....all mage classes....CW as well....

First, I'm not saying things are balanced right in Neverwinter. I do believe your perception of PnP D&D is quite subjective however.

I've played D&D for over two decades. For the most part, melee classes had always out DPS'd mages. Yes, mages could do a lot of damage in one spell, over time, the melee classes, and even using ranged weapons, would be the ones dealing the most damage due to multiple attacks per round, critical damage, and they usually got the killing shots. Mages were slower to act, sometimes needing a round or more to prepare and get a big spell off and then they were limited to a set amount of spells per day, less if they could not memorize their spells that day, limited to what spells they had in their spellbook, and even getting interrupted.

While the melee classes always had some sort of weapon, even if it was only their hand or in impulse item picked up used as a weapon. The only mage class that seemed to deal more consistent damage was the Sorcerer, and even then they were limited to casting time, concentration, and known spells.

It wasn't until high level adventures that mages really could dish out damage, and even then, they had to deal with magic resistance, saving throws, casting times, concentration, and so forth. While at the same time, their melee and ranged counterparts had even more powerful weapons, feats, and so forth. I don't remember a time when I didn't know a mage player to take up some sort of melee or ranged weapon because they would always run into a situation where they were unable to do any spell damage.

Yes I understand what you are talking about my last Fighter I had no in my group could out Dps me on singles hits (I triple sprlise in great axe) but I was not hitting 5 people every hit.

The one thing I could not do was cast a fire ball and kill everything.....and if they did not kill everything it was easy to mop up for everyone else.....

The other thing I remember the melee classes job was to keep the mobs of the priest and mages which they do....but not the GWF like someone here said they run ahead because they don't need anyone's help....then they wonder why people kick them out of the dungeon (I've seen it happen).....

If any class needs a nerf is the GWF.....

My main is a SW and I have a CW...I'm also leveling a DC and a OP but they are far from ready for anything.....

I have made a second GWF.....I deleted my first one because I don't like the class...I don't like to chase my pray which is why I like ranged classes better.....I only made another one to get the class artifact.....

If I like playing a GWF I would be playing one....but I don't....

Thank you for talking to me about this some of you made some OMG points about the balance issues.....

I have being meaning to do some testing in the preview server with my SW but I can't download the preview server....but it would be nice if they would stop nerfing the SW class.....

sorcha

this stupid thing just deleted my post.....

clericalist

lukejones77 said:

Everything important is control-immune, and power creep got rid of party dependence on control

A big part that played a role in this is how they redesigned the bosses. For those that remember the Dracolich and Elder Brain final boss battles, those were real hard, they were hard because they had lots of mobs (that needed controlling) AND a hard main boss. Many complained that the mobs made the boss battle cheap, but I disagree with this, it made it hard, currently the single boss (no mobs) is all about one shot kills and a billion hit points, which naturally benefit the GWF. I remember how people used to discuss how to use the CW black hole ultimate to control the mobs in these difficult fights, if they are going make control useful again they need to redesign how the dungeons work. Right now the situation is that everything is now either too hard or too easy, with nothing much in between those two states, the whales will dismiss those that cannot do TONG as being too stupid to play, the rest will not do TONG because they say they cannot do it because they are not whales (and they are mostly right on this).

Obviously power creep also need to be addressed, but if they want to make control (and healing) useful, they need to seriously redesign a lot of the dungeon bosses.

zebular

sorcha#9865 said:

this stupid thing just deleted my post.....

Spam queue caught it, I told it to leave you alone and restored your post.

time2011

nightstalkor said:

So there ya go. Ranged classes get broke off here in NW. My recommendation to ANY new players would be to start w/ a GWF, a pally, or a TR. Learn the system and how to build up your toon, then try a ranged class. BTW, you think CW's have it bad, avoid Clerics. ICK.

You have got to be joking me. You think ranged classes are so horrible they can't survive compared to a melee? you obviously are not that very skilled or experienced in it because ranged classes are squishy ya but anyone can turn the cons into a plus. I honestly dont think cw's have it bad at all it varies on the player i know plenty of cw friends who shred anything and rarely ever die at all. I play a ranger that's also squishy like any other ranged class but have no problem dishing out damage and taking it and if i know that the mob has one shot attacks i avoid them. cw's should be having it alot easier in group mobs because they can stun and freeze multiple targets at once and burn them out.

For new players dont go by this guy's rant just go by what you enjoy and just work your class to the point it's never an issue fighting mobs or dungeons that you can be completely self reliant. If you want to make a cw, ask around your guild for suggestions on what builds to take on, or any class for that matter just ask around. do your research on the class read through the description when making it, look at the powers, assume that you have vulnerability to taking damage and just work on that. highly recommend high lifesteal to help with self healing.

It is rough going as a dps class but it doesn't have to be a living nightmare. some can make due others clearly cannot and will complain about how other classes are better and should be nerfed. gwf's are just for melee so obviously they're going to be in the frontlines dealing the damage and taking it because they were designed specifically for that role. ranged classes like cw/SW/hr/dc are going to have flaws when it comes to battle but they dont have to be weak in it.

Hell i play a ranger(previously stated) as a combat spec'd one, i'm always at the frontlines with everyone fighting the mobs and shredding them. it all boils down to preference do you want to be a long ranged player? close combat? or even be a buffer to your allies? its about what you want to play not what your forced into playing, if being a cw or any ranged doesn't work out try a melee or support class and see if it fits your play-style.

If your not enjoying the game, then just move on to another game that you do enjoy playing.

sorcha

zebular said:

sorcha#9865 said:

this stupid thing just deleted my post.....

Spam queue caught it, I told it to leave you alone and restored your post.

Cool.....thank you.....

Unknown

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sorcha

time2011 said:

nightstalkor said:

So there ya go. Ranged classes get broke off here in NW. My recommendation to ANY new players would be to start w/ a GWF, a pally, or a TR. Learn the system and how to build up your toon, then try a ranged class. BTW, you think CW's have it bad, avoid Clerics. ICK.

You have got to be joking me. You think ranged classes are so horrible they can't survive compared to a melee? you obviously are not that very skilled or experienced in it because ranged classes are squishy ya but anyone can turn the cons into a plus. I honestly dont think cw's have it bad at all it varies on the player i know plenty of cw friends who shred anything and rarely ever die at all. I play a ranger that's also squishy like any other ranged class but have no problem dishing out damage and taking it and if i know that the mob has one shot attacks i avoid them. cw's should be having it alot easier in group mobs because they can stun and freeze multiple targets at once and burn them out.

For new players dont go by this guy's rant just go by what you enjoy and just work your class to the point it's never an issue fighting mobs or dungeons that you can be completely self reliant. If you want to make a cw, ask around your guild for suggestions on what builds to take on, or any class for that matter just ask around. do your research on the class read through the description when making it, look at the powers, assume that you have vulnerability to taking damage and just work on that. highly recommend high lifesteal to help with self healing.

It is rough going as a dps class but it doesn't have to be a living nightmare. some can make due others clearly cannot and will complain about how other classes are better and should be nerfed. gwf's are just for melee so obviously they're going to be in the frontlines dealing the damage and taking it because they were designed specifically for that role. ranged classes like cw/SW/hr/dc are going to have flaws when it comes to battle but they dont have to be weak in it.

Hell i play a ranger(previously stated) as a combat spec'd one, i'm always at the frontlines with everyone fighting the mobs and shredding them. it all boils down to preference do you want to be a long ranged player? close combat? or even be a buffer to your allies? its about what you want to play not what your forced into playing, if being a cw or any ranged doesn't work out try a melee or support class and see if it fits your play-style.

If your not enjoying the game, then just move on to another game that you do enjoy playing.

Is telling people to HAMSTER off and attacking people normal for you.....your post was very unhelpful....

In other news I made my very first R9 today......yay....

Have a nice day.....

Unknown

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c3rb3r3

Anyway you cannot nerf GWF damages without touching anything else, it would be the same as early modules where the class had absolutely nothing to defend itself and thrown into trash

mattsacre

Here is kind if a way you can balance it in a bass-akward-way..it seems counter intuitive but it has worked for other MMO I've worked with.

You balance group dynamics through solo dynamics.

Let me explain, you start with the idea that a solo class gets were everyone is going eventually, they just get there in a different style and path.

So take a snap shot of what each class does SOLO in a time frame like 5 min. At the end of 5 minutes are they relatively in the same state? Did the GWF having to pause and regen, kill relatively the same amount of mobs and have skills recharged and hp as the OP that chugged through the mobs a bit slower but get to 5 minute mark whole without regen? Did the CW push off most mobs, blast through the rest rapid, then deal with those that nicked them, have time to regen and be whole at the 5 min mark? Did the DC chug through like the OP with heals as armor, did the SW with leeching? Did the TR/HR kill a couple here, kill a couple there and finish off in time to reach the 5 minute mark? If they didn't then THAT class is under powered and the one that zipped through to 5 minutes unchecked is overpowered. Balance THAT and don't nerf it.

In a 5 minute snap shot, every class should be relatively the same dmg score/HP and skills charged. Yes the GWF blasted through, but he had to regen. so in 5 min the TR/HR that did huge spike dmg, they also had to do time dancing. The OP/DC/SW/GF chugged through to that 5 minutes intact, they just grinded it slower rate dmg.

So all that. why the hell group? For speed and ease of use. With a DC along the GWF/GF won't need to regen, with the GWF/GF along the DC can spend more time buffing party dps, debuffing mobs not self healing. With the group along the SW can spend more time cursing/doting and less leeching/dancing. The HR/TR can be mopping up strays and dodging in/out to range/stab boss. The CW can be luring mobs into the middle or holding off mobs from the squishier members. A group helps share the burden, gets it done faster and to pie ala mode sooner. (I like pie, keep your cake, so sue me )

lukejones77

time2011 said:

nightstalkor said:

So there ya go. Ranged classes get broke off here in NW. My recommendation to ANY new players would be to start w/ a GWF, a pally, or a TR. Learn the system and how to build up your toon, then try a ranged class. BTW, you think CW's have it bad, avoid Clerics. ICK.

You have got to be joking me. You think ranged classes are so horrible they can't survive compared to a melee? ...
It is rough going as a dps class but it doesn't have to be a living nightmare. some can make due others clearly cannot and will complain about how other classes are better and should be nerfed. gwf's are just for melee so obviously they're going to be in the frontlines dealing the damage and taking it because they were designed specifically for that role. ranged classes like cw/SW/hr/dc are going to have flaws when it comes to battle but they dont have to be weak in it.

You're just not seeing the 500 pound gorilla in the room. Half the classes in the game are next to irrelevant for new content in the game. This goes much deeper than "flaws".

time2011 said:

If your not enjoying the game, then just move on to another game that you do enjoy playing.

Or.... the DEVs can fix what they broke. Why would you suggest that the better option is for players to leave the game? Are you a beneficiary of the class bias, who would prefer that others leave?

gabrieldourden

etelgrin said:

sorcha#9865 said:

Hello....no idea you'll like anything I have to say but too bad....

I have being playing D&D for 20 years pen and paper....and I have a big gripe with the GWF.....how in the hell does a dude with a big sword out dps a mage class....

Like OMG WTF.......this is a huge insult to the spirit of the game.....

When I played pen and paper I never thought for a second that I could out damage a mage....never....

Could someone like explain to why a GWF out dps mage classes.....

you may think why MAGE not SW class.....all mage classes....CW as well....

You must played your Fighter pretty much as bad as your writing, because there was no stronger class perhaps beside Barbarian than a pure Fighter with some paragons if even needed since AD&D 2.0 up to D&D3.5, I cant say for later releases because I havent played them.

Well, if you look at 4th edition which is (loosely) the base for NWO, the main DPS are the melee ranger (high sustained dps and by far the best burst), the warlock (through some Catch 22 builds using Hellish Rebuke) and the avenger (critfishing but usually borrowing twin Strike from the ranger). The 4th edition melee ranger is an absolute glass cannon and if you don't consider extremely sophisticated builds it is definitely the strongest damage dealer there.

gabrieldourden

zebular said:

sorcha#9865 said:

Hello....no idea you'll like anything I have to say but too bad....

I have being playing D&D for 20 years pen and paper....and I have a big gripe with the GWF.....how in the hell does a dude with a big sword out dps a mage class....

Like OMG WTF.......this is a huge insult to the spirit of the game.....

When I played pen and paper I never thought for a second that I could out damage a mage....never....

Could someone like explain to why a GWF out dps mage classes.....

you may think why MAGE not SW class.....all mage classes....CW as well....

First, I'm not saying things are balanced right in Neverwinter. I do believe your perception of PnP D&D is quite subjective however.

I've played D&D for over two decades. For the most part, melee classes had always out DPS'd mages. Yes, mages could do a lot of damage in one spell, over time, the melee classes, and even using ranged weapons, would be the ones dealing the most damage due to multiple attacks per round, critical damage, and they usually got the killing shots. Mages were slower to act, sometimes needing a round or more to prepare and get a big spell off and then they were limited to a set amount of spells per day, less if they could not memorize their spells that day, limited to what spells they had in their spellbook, and even getting interrupted.

While the melee classes always had some sort of weapon, even if it was only their hand or in impulse item picked up used as a weapon. The only mage class that seemed to deal more consistent damage was the Sorcerer, and even then they were limited to casting time, concentration, and known spells.

It wasn't until high level adventures that mages really could dish out damage, and even then, they had to deal with magic resistance, saving throws, casting times, concentration, and so forth. While at the same time, their melee and ranged counterparts had even more powerful weapons, feats, and so forth. I don't remember a time when I didn't know a mage player to take up some sort of melee or ranged weapon because they would always run into a situation where they were unable to do any spell damage.

Agreed. When it came to raw damage usually steel was better than magic at least below level 15 or so. At high levels magic got the upper hand again in both 2e and 3-3.5e but usually not through raw damage. In 4e there was probably more balance across the board. 5e I never really played (did the playtest and discovered it was not for me).

sorcha

c3rb3r3 said:

Anyway you cannot nerf GWF damages without touching anything else, it would be the same as early modules where the class had absolutely nothing to defend itself and thrown into trash

Apart from the GWF most of the other DPS classes are not wanted because there DPS are too low...so don't you think we have a problem, people are investing a lot of time into these characters only to find they are not valued or wanted in the higher level dungeon's....

In the higher level dungeon's its all about the DPS....and if the Dev's keep nerfing the other DPS classes....

I'm almost 11k ilevel on my SW....is there any point even playing any more on this character any more....

SW are not over powered any more is there any point in nerfing them more.....

you must remember I played D&D I was under the impression that a mage class would be a power house of damage...this is very disappointing.....

The dps does not matter to me...the fact that I'm made to feel that I'm wasting my time with a character that I can't do higher level dungeons with....

is it to much to ask to re balance the classes so that they have a chance......

gromovnipljesak

In the current state of the game, GWFs aren't the only viable DPS class. Idc what you think, that's just bull. CWs can stomp GWFs, as can HRs. TRs and SWs are just underpowered (and we all know it). It's really about the dungeon, rather than the class.
Eg, GWF dominates in TNG, mostly because like 1/2 the dungeon health is Orcus, and GWF is a single target lad.
FBI and MSP are definitely CW area. I've seen really good GWFs get stomped by mediocre CWs in those dungeons. And there's no BS here like "oh he ran ahead and killed stuff". That doesn't work in T3s. You run in front of the tank, and you die. Ads hit hard, yo.
And HRs are just great all-around. Jacks of all trades, masters of none.
TRs and SWs are in a dire need of a buff.

Anyways, here's another perspective, one you get from actually thinking. GWFs do DPS, and they're not ranged. So they're directly in the thwacking range of every boss. They also pull a lotta aggro. They basically need everything they have to actually work as a class. My vote is, buff every class that is underperforming. With the recent nerfs, it would be a massive pain to have another source of DPS taken away. TNG is hard enough as it is. There's that 1% of people who already have all the R13s and 14s, but what about the rest? The rest who can't finish FBI, let alone MSP or TNG.

Now that I've addressed that... I have to say, are you really whining about not matching a working class with a class that's so utterly underperforming that people are literally abandoning their SW MAINS to change to CW and HR and whatever?

preechr

Plus, at 11k you are just getting started
If your armpen is where it needs to be, then your crit is low, and your power needs to go up before you start feeling like you’re are really doing damage
Keep going
You aren’t to the point where your class starts to feel weaker than others yet, and you’re already upset and wanting to give up? You are letting yourself get influenced by forum trolls man

sorcha

preechr#2215 said:

Plus, at 11k you are just getting started

If your armpen is where it needs to be, then your crit is low, and your power needs to go up before you start feeling like you’re are really doing damage

Keep going

You aren’t to the point where your class starts to feel weaker than others yet, and you’re already upset and wanting to give up? You are letting yourself get influenced by forum trolls man

My armpen is 4.5k I think, crit 11.2k I like the buffing nature of the SW so I play as a templock a lot of course this hurts my dps, I have being top dps pain giver once or twice with 90k or what ever the number was....but only because we had a low item level person with us, the run before we had some one with a higher item level and they got 120k or something....so my dps is not HAMSTER....

Because my SW is my highest item level character in game, I was planing to take this toon to Tong....I'm not so sure if that is such a good idea anymore....

My next highest item level is not even that high at 9.5k and my cleric is newly level 70 at 8.4k item level....

but before I replace if I do replace my main I need to unlock all the dungeons which I can only do on my SW.....

gromovnipljesak#8234 said:

In the current state of the game, GWFs aren't the only viable DPS class. Idc what you think, that's just bull. CWs can stomp GWFs, as can HRs. TRs and SWs are just underpowered (and we all know it). It's really about the dungeon, rather than the class.
Eg, GWF dominates in TNG, mostly because like 1/2 the dungeon health is Orcus, and GWF is a single target lad.
FBI and MSP are definitely CW area. I've seen really good GWFs get stomped by mediocre CWs in those dungeons. And there's no BS here like "oh he ran ahead and killed stuff". That doesn't work in T3s. You run in front of the tank, and you die. Ads hit hard, yo.
And HRs are just great all-around. Jacks of all trades, masters of none.
TRs and SWs are in a dire need of a buff.

Anyways, here's another perspective, one you get from actually thinking. GWFs do DPS, and they're not ranged. So they're directly in the thwacking range of every boss. They also pull a lotta aggro. They basically need everything they have to actually work as a class. My vote is, buff every class that is underperforming. With the recent nerfs, it would be a massive pain to have another source of DPS taken away. TNG is hard enough as it is. There's that 1% of people who already have all the R13s and 14s, but what about the rest? The rest who can't finish FBI, let alone MSP or TNG.

Now that I've addressed that... I have to say, are you really whining about not matching a working class with a class that's so utterly underperforming that people are literally abandoning their SW MAINS to change to CW and HR and whatever?

I made my SW about a year ago I don't remember the date I did it but I have no idea at that time that the class had being nerfed to the ground...I was enjoying the class and at that time that was all that mattered....

but now I'm thinking what I need to do to get into the end game stuff and my SW could do it but any other class could do it better.....

armadeonx

These days it's all about the amount of damage you can bring to bosses - if a dps class doesn't have competitive single target dps then they are not welcome in T3 groups.