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GWF and mage classes

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  • c3rb3r3c3rb3r3 Member Posts: 277 Arc User
    To be honest I'd be willing to lose 30% of my DPS for a complete rework of the class. GWF is boring as hell
  • bodini72bodini72 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 72 Arc User
    c3rb3r3 said:

    CW has range and permanent controls, GWF has .. damages. That's all. So why should CW outscale a class that is only good at one thing ?

    c3rb3r3 said:

    Anyway you cannot nerf GWF damages without touching anything else, it would be the same as early modules where the class had absolutely nothing to defend itself and thrown into trash

    Your narrow view and refusal to acknowledge anything tells us all you play a GWF and likely only a GWF. Get a clue and broaden your horizons before you make comments like this because they bring absolutely nothing to the discussion and destroy any credibility you might think you have.

  • c3rb3r3c3rb3r3 Member Posts: 277 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    bodini72 said:

    c3rb3r3 said:

    CW has range and permanent controls, GWF has .. damages. That's all. So why should CW outscale a class that is only good at one thing ?

    c3rb3r3 said:

    Anyway you cannot nerf GWF damages without touching anything else, it would be the same as early modules where the class had absolutely nothing to defend itself and thrown into trash

    Your narrow view and refusal to acknowledge anything tells us all you play a GWF and likely only a GWF. Get a clue and broaden your horizons before you make comments like this because they bring absolutely nothing to the discussion and destroy any credibility you might think you have.

    I don't think we're playing the same game then. You don't seem to have played a single hour, let's say, 3 years ago, where CW were dominating both in control and damages, and it was disgusting, with 2 or even 3 CW parties and GWF back then was completely trash because it lacked damage, before Destroyer got that % damage boost (edit : in mod 1/2). Sure you can say "but it tanks !". Let's be real : any class can "quite" tank being BiS, as long as it's not a stupid facetanking in Tong.

    You're right on one thing : I only play GWF as I only focus on one toon, even though I played every single classes through the years up to 60, or 70. But with my experience on some games where the balance has always been a disaster for years I think I have acquired some knowledge (I will not go and say "I perfectly know CW !", but I have general balance knowledge). Yet suddenly some random guy enters a thread he didn't even participate in and lands some personal attacks because he is lacking arguments, maybe ? Whatever.

    EDIT : i'm not even sure you took the time to think about my posts, I mean, what I refuse is a simple damage nerf which would simply kill the class, I'd gladly accept a complete rework of the class with even a damage nerf but adding other strengths which would clearly define him to either a DPS, a real tank or a real X (whatever, I don't even know what is the purpose of Instigator) having strength and weaknesses. GWF has a big strength : DPS, and a solid one : tanking, get rid of his big strength and the other classes roll over him.
  • bodini72bodini72 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 72 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    You're right on one thing : I only play GWF

    As I correctly stated. If you never/don't play ANY of the other classes you don't haave a complete understanding of their capabilities


    You don't seem to have played a single hour

    Just to get my point across, I have 8 70's, one of every single class in the game. All of them are 12-14.5k and I play every one of them every single day. I have taken the time to do the research on every single class and how to be able to play them better...Don't believe me? Look me up, ask ppl I know check out my toons. By no means am I an elite tier player but I sure as hell know what each and every class is capable of.


    (I will not go and say "I perfectly know CW

    My main IS my CW, has been since I started playing this game several years ago

    Post edited by bodini72 on
  • c3rb3r3c3rb3r3 Member Posts: 277 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Just to be clear, I came across this thread to defend two points :

    - GWF is strong, indeed, but his balance is very hard as his damage is his sole way to be viable (as someone who plays GWF frequently).
    - If CW were to be given as much damage as other DPS, he'd just be a better class than the others, like early mods. I'm not saying he doesn't need any damage buff, it's up to you to judge.

    That's all. We can still discuss our point of view even if we strongly disagree, as long as there are arguments.
    Post edited by c3rb3r3 on
  • spideymtspideymt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 710 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    bodini72 said:


    To be clear it isn't just because their single target dps is beast, their AOE DPS is beast, their survivability is beast, their immunity to nearly everything in the game while beserk is beast, their ability to act as a tank is beast, they have no CD on their at wills which is where their damage comes from is beast (all other classes generate their dps through encounter powers) or their movement capabilities are beast it's the combination of all of it in one class. The severe imbalance the GWF creates is what people are talking about.

    Ha ha ha...
    Post edited by spideymt on

  • sorcha#9865 sorcha Member Posts: 32 Arc User

    Some people seem to think that CW are not meant to able to control bad guys and have High dps but that is how the class was meant to be

    CW are meant to be DPS power houses...all mage classes are meant to out dps all other classes this is D&D 101 gaming lore...

    My main is a SW that I may not be able to take to TONG because its unplayable because of to many nerf's.....DPS wise, can't get enough dps out of the class....

    But I'm not there yet at this moment there is more dps to get but will it be enough.....from I have read it may not be.....

    How much of a whinge did people have when the Bondings got nerfed, the mage classes got nerfed and people are putting and money and time into useless classes...but at least CW still has more use with there control.....

  • lantern22lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,111 Arc User
    rjc9000 said:

    (Even though, in my opinion, there's a proportionally higher chance of getting an idiotic BiS GWF than getting a idiotic BiS CW/HR/TR. Not that there AREN'T good high Ilvl GWFs, but there is a reason why the "brainless high ilvl GWF" is not a completely wrong stereotype...)

    I don't know about that, CW's + CoI + Lightning enchant are making a strong case for most annoying DPS imo. I think they have overtaken GWFs.
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,050 Arc User
    Tfw people want more nerfs just so they could compete to a class that's literally supposed to be front-lining... instead of, idk, maybe - asking to get buffed? It's freakkin hilarious that you want more nerfs. I vote for all other classes getting buffed.

    And as @lantern22 said, my CW can easily out-DPS GWFs on the same level (or even higher sometimes). Not even a transcendent lightning on it, just a perfect one.
    GWFs are just easy to play, and therefore easy to pull out the max DPS potential. HRs and CWs can curb-stomp GWFs in DPS if they're doing everything right. But then again, they're much harder to play.

    Also, @sorcha#9865 SWs are kinda HAMSTER in DnD too. CWs are good but have long cast times. They're meant to stay back and throw spells from afar where they're not in the harms way, while barbarians (aka GWFs) and fighters (aka GFs) take most of the beating with the sturdier parts of their face. So this resembles DnD as much as it resembles the amazing human gradient. And so, the question arises, why compare something that's essentially a tabletop game, to a video game that has much more complexity and work in the background? How do you compare a balance between something virtual and something not virtual?
  • spideymtspideymt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 710 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Mmmmhhh...to maximize your DPS on a GWF in a bossfight you have to push encounters/at wills ( i dont talk about trash...no one cares about trash..its just trash..) in the right way and also have an eye on your dailie power and on the buffs you have and which debuffs the boss got....
    I read a lot how easy a GWF is to play. So i got 3 encounters, 2 at wills and 2 dailies that i can push + my unstopable + sprint.
    CWs got more to push? Im just curious, because some are describing the CW like a rocket scientist and the GWF like a HAMSTER.
    But i cant find any button/skill where it sais:" You only have to push me all the time to make your max dps!" at my GWF. So maybe i played my GWF wrong all the time. Can someone gimme a link/pic of this button?

    BTT:
    Anyone who compares a Range DD class ( CW) with a melee class ( GWF) and claiming about DPS? You cant be serious and this whole thread cant be serious...

  • mynaammynaam Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 932 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    zebular said:



    Hello....no idea you'll like anything I have to say but too bad....

    I have being playing D&D for 20 years pen and paper....and I have a big gripe with the GWF.....how in the hell does a dude with a big sword out dps a mage class....

    Like OMG WTF.......this is a huge insult to the spirit of the game.....

    When I played pen and paper I never thought for a second that I could out damage a mage....never....

    Could someone like explain to why a GWF out dps mage classes.....

    you may think why MAGE not SW class.....all mage classes....CW as well....

    First, I'm not saying things are balanced right in Neverwinter. I do believe your perception of PnP D&D is quite subjective however.

    I've played D&D for over two decades. For the most part, melee classes had always out DPS'd mages. Yes, mages could do a lot of damage in one spell, over time, the melee classes, and even using ranged weapons, would be the ones dealing the most damage due to multiple attacks per round, critical damage, and they usually got the killing shots. Mages were slower to act, sometimes needing a round or more to prepare and get a big spell off and then they were limited to a set amount of spells per day, less if they could not memorize their spells that day, limited to what spells they had in their spellbook, and even getting interrupted.

    While the melee classes always had some sort of weapon, even if it was only their hand or in impulse item picked up used as a weapon. The only mage class that seemed to deal more consistent damage was the Sorcerer, and even then they were limited to casting time, concentration, and known spells.

    It wasn't until high level adventures that mages really could dish out damage, and even then, they had to deal with magic resistance, saving throws, casting times, concentration, and so forth. While at the same time, their melee and ranged counterparts had even more powerful weapons, feats, and so forth. I don't remember a time when I didn't know a mage player to take up some sort of melee or ranged weapon because they would always run into a situation where they were unable to do any spell damage.

    It is a fact that CW's have basically just became 3rd rate buffers and when touched get nerfed (i believe they were nerfed 4 time in a row now) where GWF's just gets stronger every mod/half mod. This is not right I play both of them and can clearly see that as far as DPS goes GWF is way stronger. Only place i can still do decent dps on my CW is MSVA and that is a year old content


    P.S. I am not trying to attack or be negative just stating how it feels when i play these classes. It has come to a point where we would rather the CW not be touched at all since if it is touched it will get nerfed
    There are more than BIS players in this game
    It has been 5 YEARS since last new class this is getting ridiculous
    FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base
    Please do master/normal version of dungeons. This way content for all MOD 19 have nothing new for vast majority of player base. Giving an EVENT is not same thing as permanent content for non BIS. As we suggested in CDP
    Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)



  • manufracturemanufracture Member Posts: 92 Arc User

    Plus, at 11k you are just getting started

    If your armpen is where it needs to be, then your crit is low, and your power needs to go up before you start feeling like you’re are really doing damage

    Keep going

    You aren’t to the point where your class starts to feel weaker than others yet, and you’re already upset and wanting to give up? You are letting yourself get influenced by forum trolls man

    100% spot on comment here - don't believe the trolls man, play what you like. I have finished FBI (granted only twice ever) and was 2nd in DPS the first time and 3rd DPS but 1st in healing the second time. Have not done ToNG but when I feel ready for it I am sure I will be ok. At 11k you are NOT ready for ToNG, sheesh i doubt even MSA or FBI to be fair.

    For the record, dont Nerf GWF - maybe buff the poor TRs and give us SW a little bit of love - the rest are fine imo
  • spideymtspideymt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 710 Arc User
    mynaam said:


    It is a fact that CW's have basically just became 3rd rate buffers and when touched get nerfed (i believe they were nerfed 4 time in a row now) where GWF's just gets stronger every mod/half mod.

    Theese are not facts. Theese are your facts. And they are wrong, m8. And the CWs are not the only class who got nerfed. Nerf is never a balance. We dont need nerfs or some "nice" players claiming for nerfs. We need balance!

  • mynaammynaam Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 932 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    lantern22 said:

    rjc9000 said:

    (Even though, in my opinion, there's a proportionally higher chance of getting an idiotic BiS GWF than getting a idiotic BiS CW/HR/TR. Not that there AREN'T good high Ilvl GWFs, but there is a reason why the "brainless high ilvl GWF" is not a completely wrong stereotype...)

    I don't know about that, CW's + CoI + Lightning enchant are making a strong case for most annoying DPS imo. I think they have overtaken GWFs.
    To answer you i would ask will you take a 14k CW as your main DPS or 14k GWF when you are doing

    AS for me it is a no brainer. With GWF you have a good chance to succeed with CW no chance
    There are more than BIS players in this game
    It has been 5 YEARS since last new class this is getting ridiculous
    FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base
    Please do master/normal version of dungeons. This way content for all MOD 19 have nothing new for vast majority of player base. Giving an EVENT is not same thing as permanent content for non BIS. As we suggested in CDP
    Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)



  • spideymtspideymt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 710 Arc User
    mynaam said:


    AS for me it is a no brainer. With GWF you have a good chance to succeed with CW no chance

    Or...wait for it...or.....you take GWF PLUS!!!! CW. Great grp combo, btw.

  • mynaammynaam Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 932 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    spideymt said:

    mynaam said:


    AS for me it is a no brainer. With GWF you have a good chance to succeed with CW no chance

    Or...wait for it...or.....you take GWF PLUS!!!! CW. Great grp combo, btw.
    That did not answer my question will you prfer a GWF or CW @ 14k IL as your main or even only dps (when doing op/gf/ac/do/DPS run)

    EDIT : I am not asking for a gwf nerf (eventhough i might joke to alliance members about it) I am just saying in the current state GWF is a true dps and CW is good as a buffer (hence good combo with gwf) It has been chain nerfed(cw nerf/hate started way before EE and has just continued) for so long we forgot what a dps cw really is
    There are more than BIS players in this game
    It has been 5 YEARS since last new class this is getting ridiculous
    FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base
    Please do master/normal version of dungeons. This way content for all MOD 19 have nothing new for vast majority of player base. Giving an EVENT is not same thing as permanent content for non BIS. As we suggested in CDP
    Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)



  • spideymtspideymt Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 710 Arc User
    mynaam said:


    That did not answer my question will you prfer a GWF or CW @ 14k IL as your main or even only dps (when doing op/gf/ac/do/DPS run)

    With op/gf/ac/do? Pfff....it doesnt matter which DPS class you fill up the last spot. In this constellation even a SW can clear tong easy. So i dont prefare any class in this constellation. BTW: iLevel says nothing about the player. But if you ask me what i have to choose when i only know the ilevel and nothing else and i got this explizit constellation? Well, a GWF.
    mynaam said:

    EDIT : I am not asking for a gwf nerf (eventhough i might joke to alliance members about it) I am just saying in the current state GWF is a true dps and CW is good as a buffer (hence good combo with gwf) It has been chain nerfed(cw nerf/hate started way before EE and has just continued) for so long we forgot what a dps cw really is

    There are some CW DPS beasts outta there and plz do soem research about CW nerfs. Thx.

  • mynaammynaam Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 932 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    spideymt said:

    mynaam said:


    That did not answer my question will you prfer a GWF or CW @ 14k IL as your main or even only dps (when doing op/gf/ac/do/DPS run)

    With op/gf/ac/do? Pfff....it doesnt matter which DPS class you fill up the last spot. In this constellation even a SW can clear tong easy. So i dont prefare any class in this constellation. BTW: iLevel says nothing about the player. But if you ask me what i have to choose when i only know the ilevel and nothing else and i got this explizit constellation? Well, a GWF.
    mynaam said:

    EDIT : I am not asking for a gwf nerf (eventhough i might joke to alliance members about it) I am just saying in the current state GWF is a true dps and CW is good as a buffer (hence good combo with gwf) It has been chain nerfed(cw nerf/hate started way before EE and has just continued) for so long we forgot what a dps cw really is

    There are some CW DPS beasts outta there and plz do soem research about CW nerfs. Thx.
    Yes there are, but at same il of GWF the GWF is better and i don't need to research the cw nerfs i lived through each and every one of them it is like a landslide that just don't stop

    EDIT : Even in mod 12b MOF got a nice nerf just because they are a CW
    There are more than BIS players in this game
    It has been 5 YEARS since last new class this is getting ridiculous
    FORCING the majority of your player base to play 4 mod old dungeons and trial will have a bad result on player base
    Please do master/normal version of dungeons. This way content for all MOD 19 have nothing new for vast majority of player base. Giving an EVENT is not same thing as permanent content for non BIS. As we suggested in CDP
    Changes are getting so bad i would rather prefer no new changes (RIP ICE FISHING in winter fest)



  • bodini72bodini72 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 72 Arc User
    spideymt said:

    Mmmmhhh...to maximize your DPS on a GWF in a bossfight you have to push encounters/at wills ( i dont talk about trash...no one cares about trash..its just trash..) in the right way and also have an eye on your dailie power and on the buffs you have and which debuffs the boss got....
    I read a lot how easy a GWF is to play. So i got 3 encounters, 2 at wills and 2 dailies that i can push + my unstopable + sprint.
    CWs got more to push? Im just curious, because some are describing the CW like a rocket scientist and the GWF like a HAMSTER.
    But i cant find any button/skill where it sais:" You only have to push me all the time to make your max dps!" at my GWF. So maybe i played my GWF wrong all the time. Can someone gimme a link/pic of this button?

    BTT:
    Anyone who compares a Range DD class ( CW) with a melee class ( GWF) and claiming about DPS? You cant be serious and this whole thread cant be serious...


    It is plain that you don't play both classes and therefor have no valid opinion. The point I made earlier is still the issue. The FACT that the GWF is among the top DPS classes isn't the issue at all. The FACT that the GWF is

    Among the top MELEE single target DPS
    Among the top Melee AOE DPS
    Can off tank in the same spec/gear as DPS
    Has the best survivability of all non tanking classes in the same spec/gear as dps spec
    Becomes immune to just about every single negative effect in the game in same said spec/gear
    Has speed burst to act/react positivelt to just about any situation neeeded in said spec/gear
    The ultra simple playstyle and ease in reaching said max dps is moreso than any other class in the game also in said spec/gear


    While I am not saying they need a DPS nerf, they most certainly need to be looked at for class balance to every other class in the game. If their dps is going to be tops (single target AND AOE) then their survivability should be looked into. If they are considered a finished product then all other classes need to be looked into and reworked based on the GWF model.

    To many of us that actually play multiple classes (I play all 8 classes and most of them with at least 1 loadout) we understand that the GWF is the favorite child.

    I will agree that the 1 area that the GWF falls behind is in buffing the party and/or debuffing the boss, that said a buffing spec shouldn't compare in DPS to a pure DPS class. Continuing off that line of thought as a CW in my DPS spec I should be in line with the other DPS classes. The HR,SW and the CW need to play in melee'ish to be at max efficiency which is garbage. No caster or archer should "HAVE" to play near melee to maximize their efficiency.

    If you want to debate melee vs. ranged we could do that all day long. There is a reason in nearly every single game out there the "mage" class is nicknamed a 'GLASS CANNON". Mage's (CW in neverwinter) are supposed to be insane DPS. Ranged theoretically would need to move less and therefor have more opportinity to straight DPS without distraction and therefor should be able to out DPS ANY melee class. Pure DPS classes/spec's should have similar DPS output capabilities. Neither one should be better than the other except in certain circumstances. Each DPS spec within each class should be balanced to obtain their max DPS output based on how that class should be played. Again to harp on the caster and archer "NEEDING" to be near melee to be at max is a FAIL by cryptic.

    If CC were something truly utilized in neverwinter I would have no problem with the disparity in DPS capabilities as there would be a truly meaningful use/reason for tiered DPS. As we all know there is no real use of CC in neverwinter and therefor a waste.

  • c3rb3r3c3rb3r3 Member Posts: 277 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    bodini72 said:



    To many of us that actually play multiple classes (I play all 8 classes and most of them with at least 1 loadout) we understand that the GWF is the favorite child.


    Pls, the class hasn't been touched since mod 6 where it was a useless Instigator "buff"
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,395 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    These two things I consider facts:
    * When I as a CW play with a similarily geared GWF they usually do AT LEAST twice my dps, often more. That is too much of a difference to blame it all on me sucking.
    * If I do not watch my back, mobs can floor me in one hit where GWFs keep on ticking like a duracell bunny.

    When GWF has that much better offense and that much better defense, of course they are picked for the main dps slot in the really hard places like ToNG. (And we'll probably get another dungeon at ToNG level with mod 13, which will make the CW exclusion even worse)

    For a CW to have same worth in ToNG as a GWF, the dps pushed by a CW needs to be superior to the GWF to compensate for the lower defense and thereby higher risk of death with the CW.

    I do see spideymt being scared shitless of being nerfed, and well he should be. If other classes are lifted up to GWF dps levels game will be trivialized on several points. So since the GWF is so far ahead dps-wise, the sensible thing to do is to hit the GWF with some dps nerfage while other classes get their dps boost.

    To make game fun for all, all classes need to have the same desirability in ToNG and the soon-to-be ToNG sister dungeon. And that WILL hurt GWFs since they will and should no longer be the most desired class. No way around that.

    The GWF situation should have been handled a LONG time ago. I have no idea why the devs have been so blind for so long.
  • hypervoreianhypervoreian Member Posts: 1,036 Arc User
    "* If I do not watch my back, mobs can floor me in one hit where GWFs keep on ticking like a duracell bunny. "

  • snottysnotty Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 476 Arc User
    remove the dps chart and see how many people care about who does what damage. I dont really put much stock in the dps chart since it is so easily skewed to begin with. Why do you think people are always trying to run to the next mob before finishing the first one?

    Those damned charts are one of the things that makes running dungeons with PUGs such a bad experience to begin with. Rather then being smart, playing it safe and working as a team everyone is trying to beat the other to be top dps and it just makes everything harder.

    I could write an entire page about the harmful effect of those unneeded charts but I'll just say that this thread is just one example.

    Should also point out that ILV, gear, ect ect doesn't mean squat. Maybe the gwf is just a better player then the CW. Maybe he's has a good build and the CW doesn't. I've beat GWFS that were much higher ILV with my TR simply because they were using a bad build and weak skills.
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    There is only one viable dps-build or spec since mod 6 for GWF… hard to believe anyone could be that misguided with his build.

    I also beat a lot of GWF's since mod 6 with my warlock, but does that mean my class needs a nerf?
    No that only means I met the wrong player pugging.
    It's no secret that GWF outperforms some classes and has a pretty nice survivability on top.
    It's also proven, that some GF using special encounter , can dish out redicules high damage vs single targets.
    Same as it is known that buglock dealt crazy hits and numbers with Puppy and Killing Flame bug until he got fixed.
    Atm I am forced to run my DC most of the time in Tong.
    I also got that GWF, tbh it's not my class but deals stupid high aoe....

    Now i startend leveling a prot OP and i never felt that comfortable. Several hundred temp HP, soloing Bryn Shandar...templars Wrath and temp HP generation in general is laughable easy and feals totally broken.
    I tanked up to T2.5 with my GF, far more work and thoughts about gear etc.
    Balance will never happen, that's my resume.
  • ragequittingdc#8599 ragequittingdc Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    what are the ilvl's of these gwf toons that get picked for tong? I have my doubts that any and every gwf is making the cut just because they have a big sword. for anything under T3 content it really matters how well you know how to play your class, if you are trying to beat a gwf in paingiver that is. someone already mentioned also that the, "survivability", a gwf has does not exist in fbi or mspc. if you're not liking that a gelatinous cube or a rage drake isn't burning down a 13k gwf then for example, then I would just wonder why you would want your ranged DPS class to need to stand as close to them to attack like a gwf has to.
    im actually the gwf carry
  • c3rb3r3c3rb3r3 Member Posts: 277 Arc User
    People sayingg both GWF need to get nerfed and CW/other classes to get buffed. All in all, you just want GWF to be at the same place you claim your class to be, right ? It's either one or none, on the supposition CW and such are worse than GWF, if you buff CW to his level then you bring choice, nerf also GWF and you just reverse the actual problem
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