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GWF and mage classes

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  • bodini72bodini72 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 72 Arc User
    who said gwf mains never asked for that? I personally have contributed to such a thread hoping for instigator and sentinel reworks. I have also come to accept that pve gwf as is, is a pure dps class, and it's much more difficult to be very good at it than it is given credit for, as well as very expensive. what does that have to do with this thread through?


    While I understand the frustration of being ignored if we all don't continue to demand fair gameplay and class balances when we see them we will all be ignored. The GWF is the easiest class to set up, gear and understand it's rotations. All classes are expensive, we all have the same amount of upgrading to do to get to BiS so not sure what that comment is supposed to be for and you are right it has nothing to do with this thread.


    gwf is among the top aoe and single target dps and then, when talking about t3, that is where your list should end. the non-tanking class with the most survivability is not gwf, it's dc. there's a 5 dc group tong vid out there. immunity to most(not all) stuns and ability to run around fast, this is essential to a class that has to step on a mobs toes to maximize their output, not so much a class that can stand just outside of the stun or 1 shot aoe.

    That is all that matters (T3) as many people have stated over and over why it matters. I won't argue that the DC has awesome survivability so I will restate my comment so you get it, The GWF has the highest survivability of all the DPS classes. I hope that is better. EVERY SINGLE DPS class has to step on the mobs toes to maximize their DPS output so once again I'm not sure where your going with your comment. So there is no confusion let me be thorough, the SS CW needs to be in melee, the Trapper HR needs to be in melee (at least off and on), the TR needs to be in melee and the SW needs to be in melee...The MoF CW can be at a distance but they are typically used as a buffer and not main DPS.
  • lukejones77lukejones77 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 282 Arc User


    ...
    that is true and yet the main talking point that ss cw isn't desirable has become centered around tomb numbers. the "imbalance" everywhere else is just not a thing, atleast I have not personally seen it. leaving out t1/t2, because there is no way you're about to tell me dps cw can't get a group there because they are too weak and not desirable; fbi sva msva mspc, any of these pieces of content easily have groups that will take dps cw and when it comes down to paingiver racing among gwf/cw/hr, in rare cases sw/tr, the one with the best combination of skill, ilvl, and gear will overtake the others.

    Unfortunately repeating what has been mentioned several times in this thread:
    - T1/T2 content is cake walk, where people were happy to take along anybody. The standard complaint was that there was no challenging content (for all classes).
    - The real issue with GWF, amongst DPS classes, is that it combines tough survivability with the best DPS. This makes them very highly desirable compared to squshy, lower performing DPS classes.
    - the imbalance has been there for over 2 years. The difference is that it is now really, really obvious, because the content is finally tough - clearly demonstrated by TONG party composition numbers.

    This balance issue is now critical. You didn't have to do SP or FBI to get the latest gear upgrades. Now, it's gated behind multiple successful TONG runs.
    Also, DEVs nerfed our bonding stones, with the only fix being the ultimate enchanting stone, which is also pretty much the good AD drop earner - also gated behind lots of successful TONG runs.

    Quick look at TONG parties as they are right now:
    DC - 34 (support)
    Paly - 15 (support/DPS)
    GWF - 15 (DPS)
    GF - 14 (Support/DPS)
    ------------
    HR - 4 (DPS)
    CW - 3 (Support Mof)
    CW - 3 (DPS SS - 2 of those are 11K and 12K; lotsa luck to those parties)
    SW - 2 (DPS/Support)
    TR - 1

    These sorts of numbers are very, very typical of TONG (the heart of our new module, the gate of new gear, the gate of fixing bonding stone nerfs, the gate of AD earning with that elusive stone drop).

    Surely you've noticed this very, very consistent pattern? Surely you understand how much more critical it is to run TONG than it was to run SP or FBI? Surely you get that in general there are really strong reasons that guilds and friends are simply no longer taking their rainbow parties with their old TR, SW and CW mates?
    Surely you get how painful this is for those of us who only play their main - if they're TR, SW or DPS CW.

    We haven't had bad design show so strongly since Tiamat was released, where the entrance gear level was so low that the only way to win was to form high gear level discussion groups and enter the door at a secret countdown time.
  • lantern22lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,111 Arc User
    I think its time to bring my two favourite spells into Neverwinter - Fireball and Lightning Bolt.

    MoF gets Fireball, moderate/good single target DPS, great AoE - not awesome on Bosses but they still have good buffs so are viable.

    SS gets lightining bolt - awesome single target DPS to rival IBS and make SS CW viable at end game.

    I would fully support that for mages, doesn't involve nerfing a class.
  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,050 Arc User
    @bodini72
    I have no idea who are you running with, but top DPS in single AND multi target? Are you out of your freaking mind?
    CWs can utterly curb stomp GWFs in AoE damage, and in late game their single target damage isn't too shabby.
    HRs have the ability to get to their peak DPS in a fraction of a second, and they hit really hard, making them good for both AoE AND single target.
    SWs and TRs are just plain ol' underpowered, and devs have acknowledged that.

    Besides, I see people saying "oooh GWFs are so tanky and hard hitting" blablabla.
    And let me tell you one thing - that is the most HAMSTER I've heard in a loooong time. Try asking one of the higher geared GWFs to stay alive in TNG for more than 10 seconds. The thing is - you can't. The fact that you're begging for more nerfs even though the ENTIRE HAMSTER GAME has been nerfed with 12b is just sad. How bitter are you, really?

    Anyways, back on topic. Orcus in CN can still equally one-shot my GWF and my CW. So much for GWFs being "durable" (even tho according to some GWFs are supposed to be tanks, even tho we HAVE NO SHIELD but whatever).
    And the fact that most of the people here are whining because they can't beat other classes at higher gear score is sad. Because, if they wanted to be competitive, they'd ask for buffs. If they want be competitive out of jealousy and spite, they'd ask for nerfs. And boy oh boy, look what we have here.

    In any case, CWs can easily compete with GWFs in terms of DPS - it's the devs fault they made orcus have 38 trillion health so GWFs can do their thing for 5 hours. SWs and TRs will get a buff - so they'll be able to do their thing too. Heck, TRs could even take the DPS crown.
    So the question is, what the HAMSTER do you even want?

    /end_rant.
  • bodini72bodini72 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 72 Arc User

    @bodini72
    I have no idea who are you running with, but top DPS in single AND multi target? Are you out of your freaking mind?
    CWs can utterly curb stomp GWFs in AoE damage, and in late game their single target damage isn't too shabby.
    HRs have the ability to get to their peak DPS in a fraction of a second, and they hit really hard, making them good for both AoE AND single target.
    SWs and TRs are just plain ol' underpowered, and devs have acknowledged that.

    Besides, I see people saying "oooh GWFs are so tanky and hard hitting" blablabla.
    And let me tell you one thing - that is the most HAMSTER I've heard in a loooong time. Try asking one of the higher geared GWFs to stay alive in TNG for more than 10 seconds. The thing is - you can't. The fact that you're begging for more nerfs even though the ENTIRE HAMSTER GAME has been nerfed with 12b is just sad. How bitter are you, really?

    Anyways, back on topic. Orcus in CN can still equally one-shot my GWF and my CW. So much for GWFs being "durable" (even tho according to some GWFs are supposed to be tanks, even tho we HAVE NO SHIELD but whatever).
    And the fact that most of the people here are whining because they can't beat other classes at higher gear score is sad. Because, if they wanted to be competitive, they'd ask for buffs. If they want be competitive out of jealousy and spite, they'd ask for nerfs. And boy oh boy, look what we have here.

    In any case, CWs can easily compete with GWFs in terms of DPS - it's the devs fault they made orcus have 38 trillion health so GWFs can do their thing for 5 hours. SWs and TRs will get a buff - so they'll be able to do their thing too. Heck, TRs could even take the DPS crown.
    So the question is, what the HAMSTER do you even want?

    /end_rant.


    Your entire rant (your word) is dependent on all people that play GWF being the same as you. That is where your comment fails. If you are dying to one shots in orcus (his regular attacks in melee) fully buffed then you are not as good as you seem to think. If you are trying to use his 1 shot kill hit from range then once again you fail.

    I'm not sure excatly what your comment about surviving in TONG is supposed to be about. I'll pass it off as a part of your incoherant rant and move on.

    As many people have stated we want class balance not nerfs. I have stated SEVERAL TIMES if the GWF is considered a finished product then all other DPS classes should be based off that finished product. If that is me calling for a nerf to you then there is no point in acknowledging your incoherant rants at all.

    What exactly does 38 trillion (really, exaggerate much?) have to do with the DPS of the CW vs. GWF? I will state it once again because you obviously can't get past the whole DPS thing. CLASS BALANCE NOT DPS NERF.

    When you get past your narrow view of this post and read the comments and understand what they say, then you will understand what we are talking about. No amount of me repeating myself (YET AGAIN) will help you so I won't bother.

  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,050 Arc User
    bodini72 said:

    @bodini72
    I have no idea who are you running with, but top DPS in single AND multi target? Are you out of your freaking mind?
    CWs can utterly curb stomp GWFs in AoE damage, and in late game their single target damage isn't too shabby.
    HRs have the ability to get to their peak DPS in a fraction of a second, and they hit really hard, making them good for both AoE AND single target.
    SWs and TRs are just plain ol' underpowered, and devs have acknowledged that.

    Besides, I see people saying "oooh GWFs are so tanky and hard hitting" blablabla.
    And let me tell you one thing - that is the most HAMSTER I've heard in a loooong time. Try asking one of the higher geared GWFs to stay alive in TNG for more than 10 seconds. The thing is - you can't. The fact that you're begging for more nerfs even though the ENTIRE HAMSTER GAME has been nerfed with 12b is just sad. How bitter are you, really?

    Anyways, back on topic. Orcus in CN can still equally one-shot my GWF and my CW. So much for GWFs being "durable" (even tho according to some GWFs are supposed to be tanks, even tho we HAVE NO SHIELD but whatever).
    And the fact that most of the people here are whining because they can't beat other classes at higher gear score is sad. Because, if they wanted to be competitive, they'd ask for buffs. If they want be competitive out of jealousy and spite, they'd ask for nerfs. And boy oh boy, look what we have here.

    In any case, CWs can easily compete with GWFs in terms of DPS - it's the devs fault they made orcus have 38 trillion health so GWFs can do their thing for 5 hours. SWs and TRs will get a buff - so they'll be able to do their thing too. Heck, TRs could even take the DPS crown.
    So the question is, what the HAMSTER do you even want?

    /end_rant.


    Your entire rant (your word) is dependent on all people that play GWF being the same as you. That is where your comment fails. If you are dying to one shots in orcus (his regular attacks in melee) fully buffed then you are not as good as you seem to think. If you are trying to use his 1 shot kill hit from range then once again you fail.

    I'm not sure excatly what your comment about surviving in TONG is supposed to be about. I'll pass it off as a part of your incoherant rant and move on.

    As many people have stated we want class balance not nerfs. I have stated SEVERAL TIMES if the GWF is considered a finished product then all other DPS classes should be based off that finished product. If that is me calling for a nerf to you then there is no point in acknowledging your incoherant rants at all.

    What exactly does 38 trillion (really, exaggerate much?) have to do with the DPS of the CW vs. GWF? I will state it once again because you obviously can't get past the whole DPS thing. CLASS BALANCE NOT DPS NERF.

    When you get past your narrow view of this post and read the comments and understand what they say, then you will understand what we are talking about. No amount of me repeating myself (YET AGAIN) will help you so I won't bother.

    Nah mate, I'm pretty good.
    I'm dying to orcus solo. When I'm buffed by a DC, ofc I don't die. But unless your DC completely sucks, you shouldn't either. It's either that or there's something wrong with your build mate.

    Besides, only the 1st paragraph was related to you. That's why I used "people" and not "you". So either I hit a bit close to home or there's something else questionable, but whatever, not my problem you got your knickers in a twist.

    The "38 trillion" number was an obvious exaggeration used to amplify the meaning of my point. GWFs are single target extraordinaire, and with Orcus having so much health, they can do their thing for a longer time than CWs get to kill things in AoE.
    What people are whining about is not being invited into tong because they're underperforming (for a lotta reasons, yeah, which could be anything from skill to how underpowered backstabbers and SWs are). And that originates in... (drumroll) underwhelming DPS, so yeah they're whining about their DPS.

    There's no "narrow" view in my post. It's just that you can't read, apparently, as you've missed my (relatively) coherent rant. And that "holier than thou" attitude doesn't help your case. But then again, Dunning-Kruger effect does exist, and you might just be an example of it.
  • lukejones77lukejones77 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 282 Arc User

    @bodini72
    I have no idea who are you running with, but top DPS in single AND multi target? Are you out of your freaking mind?

    Not necessarily top, but certainly good enough that you don't need to bring along any other DPS to handle mobs.


    CWs can utterly curb stomp GWFs in AoE damage, and in late game their single target damage isn't too shabby.
    HRs have the ability to get to their peak DPS in a fraction of a second, and they hit really hard, making them good for both AoE AND single target.
    SWs and TRs are just plain ol' underpowered, and devs have acknowledged that.

    Can utterly stomp? Anything can happen, but a GWF can certainly do reasonably close to the best. As has lready been stated though, mobs aren't important. All DPS classes, even tanks, can handle all mobs in the game quite well. Being good at handling mobs is not a reason to bring someone along.


    Besides, I see people saying "oooh GWFs are so tanky and hard hitting" blablabla.
    And let me tell you one thing - that is the most HAMSTER I've heard in a loooong time. Try asking one of the higher geared GWFs to stay alive in TNG for more than 10 seconds. The thing is - you can't. The fact that you're begging for more nerfs even though the ENTIRE HAMSTER GAME has been nerfed with 12b is just sad. How bitter are you, really?

    Ok, nobody denies that CWs, SWs and TRs are squishy DPS. If this is where you claim the GWFs are squishy DPS ("the most HAMSTER I've heard in a loooong time"), then you have no credibility here for anyone to answer to. A GWF being a squishy DPS is something that I've neeeeeeeever heard at any time.


    Anyways, back on topic. Orcus in CN can still equally one-shot my GWF and my CW. So much for GWFs being "durable" (even tho according to some GWFs are supposed to be tanks, even tho we HAVE NO SHIELD but whatever).

    You found a case where you could get 1-shotted like every other DPS, so you get to avoid being called "durable"? Seriously?


    And the fact that most of the people here are whining because they can't beat other classes at higher gear score is sad. Because, if they wanted to be competitive, they'd ask for buffs. If they want be competitive out of jealousy and spite, they'd ask for nerfs. And boy oh boy, look what we have here.

    Have you read the thread? Have you not seen all the stats that show GWFs are so over-represented in TONG parties that you pretty much have as many GWFs as all the other DPS classes combined? That is what we have here. All the others struggling to get the new gear, struggling to get in runs that get the enchanted stone - to fix their nerfed bonding stones and get a chance at earning some nice AD with a drop.
    The devs have given you a very privileged "class design", and it's causing the rest of the DPS classes to face significant discrimination at the fundamentals of what this game is - waiting for the next mod, for your chance to get the new gear, the new drops, fun.
    Now, you can call it whining, jealousy or spite, but I really hope that some fair fixes get applied to this game.
    You'll probably be glad to note that, there's no sign that there will be fair fixes. It looks like the most we can hope for is a buff change that cuts down by one the ridiculous number of buff/debuff players in a party, but no fix for the under-designed squishy DPS classes. That could well translate to an extra GWF in the party. Happy you!



  • ragequittingdc#8599 ragequittingdc Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    our idea of what is fair is different, that's all there is to it, so I will not go their anymore beyond this reply. your concerns that gwf is too strong isn't based on nothing, but at the same time you're exaggerating I think. gwf is the easiest to gear or all dps classes are expensive, which one is it? brutals are one of the most expensive enchants and holy/lightning are the most expensive weapon enchants.

    I should of worded my previous statement better though. gwf need to be up close as much as possible to maximize their output, and when they aren't up close they are doing nothing, relative to t3. unlike cw or hr, both which have immunity frames, unlike gwf. I don't think that needs to be changed, there's balance in that imo.


    running tomb is not neccessary either, the new stones and marks you need for r14 can be obtained with the lockbox of the lost.
    im actually the gwf carry
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User

    our idea of what is fair is different, that's all there is to it, so I will not go their anymore beyond this reply. your concerns that gwf is too strong isn't based on nothing, but at the same time you're exaggerating I think. gwf is the easiest to gear or all dps classes are expensive, which one is it? brutals are one of the most expensive enchants and holy/lightning are the most expensive weapon enchants.



    gwf need to be up close as much as possible to maximize their output, and when they aren't up close they are doing nothing, relative to t3. unlike cw or hr, both which have immunity frames, unlike gwf.





    running tomb is not neccessary either, the new stones and marks you need for r14 can be obtained with the lockbox of the lost.

    Telling other classes should simply buy their marks out of lockboxes, proves you to be completely selfish without any kind of common sense towards balance inside a game.
    After mod 6 classbalance was called out, we are pre mod 13 and things did not change that much.

    Cryptic throws at some classes with multiplier-buffs +50%+40%+30% and wonders that classbalance is completely lost.
    This stays the major problem in this game.
    Gameplay of some classes is stacking buffs and selfbuffs in a row , more math than anyting else.
    GWF provides maximum dps compared to other classe at same gear, no matter if running elol as a fresh 70 or wearing endgear inside Tomb, and there is no way you need a holy avenger to do good, take a terror and you will be good, even with a vorp you will outshine other striker.
    Why arguenig that much even not playing it yourself?
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