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GWF and mage classes

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  • niadanniadan Member Posts: 1,635 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Throw on top of this the fact that the bloody (pun intended) curse favors Gwf/Gf and there is no reason NOT to prefer a GWF as main dps.
    Post edited by niadan on
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited November 2017

    @schietindebux I don't think Cryptic excluded a majority of the player base from ToNG. The dungeon is duable with 3 dps, if one of the DPS is a moderate buffer or healer. I have been in a lot of runs featuring only 1 DC, but the we had a SW or CW/MoF as secondary buffer and two DPS. If you are willing to spend some time, this can be an interresting, a challenge and can safely be done in 60 minutes.
    This in turn means, Cryptic provided an endgame dungeon, that is hard, solvable and this experience is available to a pretty wide player base. There are a lot of people that are willing to take on a long dungeon for the experience and fun to solve it with friends, just think about how often here in forums people ask to bring back old Castle Never, an 1.5hr experience (which I never had).

    The problem lies in a huge part in the player base and what the people want to do, and that is farming ToNG. I know players that run 5-10 ToNG's every day in order to outfit alts and to get the UES. These are serious grinders and min/max'ers. Some of them actually put action point jewels into companion gear, just to get the IL increase. For them the experience is not the issue, they had it, but time is essential for them, since they want to become IL 18K+ as fast as possible. If you are realistic, this is not needed at all in NW. Unparalelled/R14 enchants are not necessary for any of the content, people just want them.
    I don't exclude myself from that, but there is also a difference between open channel runs with unknown people and guild/alliance rainbow runs, with actual voice chat. When I run with friends, the interaction is more important, when I run with open channels efficiency is more importent to me (Lfm HPDS/OP last boss ToNG is my favorite message in open channels right now).

    I think Cryptic done its job, the dungeon can be solved by any rainbow group running it, but you can not blame Cryptic for the mindset of the player base, deciding to grind it and get max gear that is actually not necessary for the game.

    Look, above I posted the number of classes represented on PC (bonding nerf) in Tong.
    About 70% or more of those classes are tanks/leader/buffer, wich tells me that about ALL groups inside that dungeon run a 4xbuffer 1xdps or 3xbuffer 2xdps setup.
    Apart from several posts that told they did Tong with a 3xdps- tank- DC combo, the ammount of player that currently do is zero.
    So what do you expect me to believe? I believe it´s doable like you said , but I also believe that it´s a pretty small number of player doing so, same as they seem to have pretty much time.
    I witnessed enough parties that failed without a standart setup out of OP-DC-DC-GF/mof-dps or OP-DC-DC/GF-2xdps
    And the fastest runs by far are made with 4x buffer 1 dps.

    The fact that GWF is the class wich is prefered by far these days to get that one spot is not a big surprise, but only a symptom of the poor state classbalance is at, concerning the dominance of buffs and debuffs by supporter.
    That´s a fact and not to disagree :) ragequitt, but sure a DC will allways defend his position

    Tong 16.11.2017 23:05
    DC: 33
    OP: 17
    GF: 10
    GWF: 8
    CW: 7 (4 support)
    TR: 3
    Hunter: 4
    SW: 5 (2xsupport)
    66x buff/support vs. 21xdps, how could anyone deny that fact?
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • jade1280jade1280 Member Posts: 174 Arc User
    Clerics with maces i'd love to see that :wink:
  • bodini72bodini72 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 72 Arc User
    akanaro said:

    I really want to know where all these notions of GWF being OP comes from. I have played a GWF for a while now and I'm squishy as hell and I never make top DPS in instances when there's a slightly higher IL DPS of a different class in there with me. I mean if the class was OP then I should still out DPS those guys right? Yes we are tougher but we have to stand on top of bosses to hit them. We're a melee class, not ranged. We need to be tough because we soak up 10 times as much damage as ranged classes. And even though we're tougher I can tell you we're still squishy for where we need to be. Some boss fights you just don't do without a good healer as a GWF because you can't.

    People look at a few top geared GWF's with transcendent enchants in all slots and they cry "He's too OP!". Put any of the other DPS classes in similar gear and it will be a close thing I tell you.

    You obviously have never played the other dps classes. your arguement about being squishy is way off base. typical gwf at level 70 with 10-12k il will have somewhere around 10-15k defense.. ALL OTHER DPS CLASSES have around 3k defense. You claim you need to be in melee and therefor take massive damage, well if you're playing your class correctly you wouldn't. You are not the tank and therefor you should be behind every mob and therefor you wouldn't take much damage at all. If you move out of aoe's like you are supposed to then you won't take damage there either.

    You obviously don't realize that every single dps class needs to be in melee to be optimal and efficient, so your arguement there is baseless. You might want to try playing the other dps classes before you make claims like this. The other classes have to rely on insane levels of lifesteal due to massively lower defense and HP and the problem with that is no amount of lifesteal can heal a oneshot. Defense minimizes the likelyhood that you will suffer one and more HP aids in surviving those larger hits.

    If you are level 70 and geared even moderately and are still having trouble surviving then you should look at what is causing it. Are you standing behind mobs? Are you moving out of AoE's? Are you pulling aggro and not backing off? Are you geared properly? Do you have proper enchants? Do you have a good spec? Do you understand the rotation? Do you have a proper distribution of stats? Defense, (possibly deflect), lifesteal, power, crit, ArmPen etc...

    All of those play a part in all classes success. If you cannot look at those things and say yes they are all set then you know where your problem lies.

  • majorcharvenakmajorcharvenak Member Posts: 783 Arc User
    jade1280 said:

    Clerics with maces i'd love to see that :wink:

    lol. Yeah. Those are called healadins Jade. :p
    ~Shia~

    House Miliskeera in exile (NW)
    Sereska Miliskeera, Lvl 70 OP - Devotion (Just.)/Protection (Just.)
    Shizlee Miliskeera, Lvl 70 DC - Divine Oracle (Right.)/Anoited Champion (Faith.)
    Finithey Miliskeera, Lvl 70 HR - Stormwarden (Combat)/Pathfinder (Trapper)
    Maya Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 CW - Spellstorm
    Irae Sik-Miliskeera, Lvl 70 TR - Master Inflitrator

    Member - Houseclan t'Charvon (STO)
    Shiarrael e'Tal'Aura t'Charvon, LvL 60, Rom Sci
    S'aana ir'Virinat t'Charvon, Lvl 60, Rom Eng
    T'Lyra, LvL 60, Fed, Vul Sci
    Ta'el, Lvl 60, Rom Tac
  • demolitioninc#2453 demolitioninc Member Posts: 108 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    @bodini72 @schietindebux your CW is squishy. Maybe a respec is necessary. My CW and my GWF have one thing in common, 40%+ DR and 16%+ lifesteal with bondings procc'ing. Considering that in bossfights my CW goes single target with ranged single target encounters I don't have a problem. But of course I still position myself directly opposite to the tank.
    My CW can be even tankier then my GWF, when I use my Golden Lion companion with 3 defensive slots, I get 75% DR, with 16%+ life steal on bondings. Or I put my negation in, 30-35% more DR. I don't do it anymore, after I got comfortable with the CW, I went straight for damage, offensive bondings.
    The only difference in tankiness between GWF and CW is the armor class, but the rest is enchantments and knowing how to build a toon around your playstyle.
    Also have you tried dodging attacks with teleport....just time it right, it works great for avoiding the armor break curse at RasNsi. CW's are "IMMUN" to damage while teleporting and 1 sec after that. In PvE that is the easiest way to avoid damage. Teleport into the mob, 1 sec immun - put down icy terrain - instant freeze - teleport out and do your ranged attacks, while icy terrain ticks, its not rocket science......
    Also in NWO GWF's are striker/defenders, CW's are controller/strikers. That is their role and description in the game. So that the GWF has higher base survivability is no surprise according to it, but it doesn't mean you can't get the CW tanky as well.
    In mob focused dungeons my CW out dps'es GWF, in dungeon with lots of single targets my GWF out dps'es CW's (if you take into account the same weapon enchantment, special mention here is T.Lightning)

    Sorry guys, I play both CW and GWF in endgame and both work well.
    Post edited by demolitioninc#2453 on
    1. PzkwVI_Kingtiger - GWF
    2. PMS-Extreme - Moffus Debuffos
    3. Tiamat's Toyboy - OP
    4. Rent-A-DC - 1 GMOP per 30 minutes
    5. Officer at Civil Anarchy, Member of Fabled Alliance
  • kozi001kozi001 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Totally agreed!
    Wizards should do awesome or at least competitive damage.
    In other Mmos like Wow Fire and Arcane mages do great damage.
    People are suprised when I told them the current situation.

    Not to mention in D&D GWF is a Defender subtype capable of offtanking. While in the game lots of Gwf thinks that Daring shout and marks are just buffs and complaining after the usage the boss are turning towards them...

    But I am tired of this argument so at least they should release Sorcerer class for full arcane dps!
    Post edited by kozi001 on
  • lukejones77lukejones77 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 282 Arc User

    @bodini72 @schietindebux your CW is squishy. Maybe a respec is necessary. My CW and my GWF have one thing in common, 40%+ DR and 16%+ lifesteal with bondings procc'ing. Considering that in bossfights my CW goes single target with ranged single target encounters I don't have a problem. But of course I still position myself directly opposite to the tank.
    My CW can be even tankier then my GWF, when I use my Golden Lion companion with 3 defensive slots, I get 75% DR, with 16%+ life steal on bondings. Or I put my negation in, 30-35% more DR. I don't do it anymore, after I got comfortable with the CW, I went straight for damage, offensive bondings.
    The only difference in tankiness between GWF and CW is the armor class, but the rest is enchantments and knowing how to build a toon around your playstyle.
    Also have you tried dodging attacks with teleport....just time it right, it works great for avoiding the armor break curse at RasNsi. CW's are "IMMUN" to damage while teleporting and 1 sec after that. In PvE that is the easiest way to avoid damage. Teleport into the mob, 1 sec immun - put down icy terrain - instant freeze - teleport out and do your ranged attacks, while icy terrain ticks, its not rocket science......
    Also in NWO GWF's are striker/defenders, CW's are controller/strikers. That is their role and description in the game. So that the GWF has higher base survivability is no surprise according to it, but it doesn't mean you can't get the CW tanky as well.
    In mob focused dungeons my CW out dps'es GWF, in dungeon with lots of single targets my GWF out dps'es CW's (if you take into account the same weapon enchantment, special mention here is T.Lightning)

    Sorry guys, I play both CW and GWF in endgame and both work well.

    Not buying it.
    However happy you are with your CW and GWF, if you're playing both to their full class potential, your GWF is much more welcome in parties for the latest module (TONG) than your DPS CW.
    Whatever you claim to be happy with, the stats for successful TONG runs continue to valid that the GWF is a far more viable class than a DPS CW.
    The play-style you describe for your CW does increase your survivability, but clearly also impacts your ability to impress as a viable DPS option. What you describe used to cut it for what is now outmoded T2 content.

    "Instant freeze"? Perhaps you've missed the point about module end game content. You're not freezing anything that actually matters to the party. These days, *every* class (healer, tank, DPS) is handling any mobs capable of being frozen, and they're not going to bring you along because of your freezing ability. The most successful parties now are not freezing anything, or bothered about Control. Even the "non-DPS" tanks are close to out-DPSing your CW (if not actually out-DPSing it), and they're way, way more tanky than you'll ever hope to be.
    Hey, glad you're finding yourself in a happy place, but your personal happiness with your CW is simply not a reflection of what is actually happening.
  • bodini72bodini72 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 72 Arc User

    @bodini72 @schietindebux your CW is squishy. Maybe a respec is necessary. My CW and my GWF have one thing in common, 40%+ DR and 16%+ lifesteal with bondings procc'ing. Considering that in bossfights my CW goes single target with ranged single target encounters I don't have a problem. But of course I still position myself directly opposite to the tank.
    My CW can be even tankier then my GWF, when I use my Golden Lion companion with 3 defensive slots, I get 75% DR, with 16%+ life steal on bondings. Or I put my negation in, 30-35% more DR. I don't do it anymore, after I got comfortable with the CW, I went straight for damage, offensive bondings.
    The only difference in tankiness between GWF and CW is the armor class, but the rest is enchantments and knowing how to build a toon around your playstyle.
    Also have you tried dodging attacks with teleport....just time it right, it works great for avoiding the armor break curse at RasNsi. CW's are "IMMUN" to damage while teleporting and 1 sec after that. In PvE that is the easiest way to avoid damage. Teleport into the mob, 1 sec immun - put down icy terrain - instant freeze - teleport out and do your ranged attacks, while icy terrain ticks, its not rocket science......
    Also in NWO GWF's are striker/defenders, CW's are controller/strikers. That is their role and description in the game. So that the GWF has higher base survivability is no surprise according to it, but it doesn't mean you can't get the CW tanky as well.
    In mob focused dungeons my CW out dps'es GWF, in dungeon with lots of single targets my GWF out dps'es CW's (if you take into account the same weapon enchantment, special mention here is T.Lightning)

    Sorry guys, I play both CW and GWF in endgame and both work well.



    Did I say MY cw is squishy? I most certainly did not. My CW has 48% DR (using the defense boon) and 18% lifesteal on bonding proccs, I stated the difference between the two in base defensive stats. At no point did I say you can't gear to increase your defense. Your arguement is flawed considering you are ignoring the fact that while you can use a golden lion and negation in addition to defense boon and all lifesteal in every defensive slot to obtain a tanky cw (which is true) you can do the same without the negation and defense boon and golden lion on gwf simply by using daring shout and activating unstoppable both increasing your DR. Unstoppable has no cool down, it can be used near constantly. Using teleportation and freezing mobs is not being tanky.

    Your argument about staying in range is flawed also as I sincerely doubt you use all single target attacks in large groups of mobs and if you are in fact using your AoE's like any CW worth their salt would, you would then be in melee at least off and on.

    As far as single target vs. AoE's, for the CW to improve single target abilities through your feats you must weaken your AoE damage. That isn't so for the GWF.

    You hit the nail on the head with your last point but not in the way you might think. Yes, the CW is a controller/striker. How many CC's work on bosses? That is in part our point. The CW has CC effects to aid him in battle, the GWF has daring shout and unstoppable to do essentially the same in a different manner. Therefor both classes should be similar in potential damage output in both single target AND AoE all other things considered. The one big difference is that the GWF abilities aren't made to be irrelevant on bosses.

    The issues here are not that we think the CW should be just as tanky as the GWF. There is no reason to think that should be the case as the GWF wears plate and the CW wears cloth(essentially). The GWF should be tankier than the CW by far and they are. The issues here outline the MANY imbalances between the two.

    Trying to deny that there is a severe class imbalance in this game is insane. There are numerous class imbalances in this game and to make a better product cryptic should look to finding that balance.
  • lukejones77lukejones77 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 282 Arc User
    bodini72 said:


    Trying to deny that there is a severe class imbalance in this game is insane. There are numerous class imbalances in this game and to make a better product cryptic should look to finding that balance.

    That's the thing. When the content was easy, people were happy to take anyone.

    The DEVs needed to solve the problem of creating tougher content, but also solving the class imbalances so that classes wouldn't be so fundamentally discriminated against - as has very clearly happened in this module.

    I predicted the issue way ahead of the module release, and raved about it in forums.

    I never predicted that the DEVs would just go right ahead and only solve the tougher content issue.
    DCs happy. Tanks happy. GWFs happy. I guess that they've either lost control of their game design, or they decided that it was good enough, and TRs/SWs/DPS CWs could just go suffer :(

    What really amazes me though, is that not only are the discriminated classes missing out on the latest gear (not the hugest of issues), but when they decided to nerf our BIS chants (esp. bonding stones) and make the fix for it be running TONG for ultimate enchanting stones - that bit really, really hard. Knowing what they've done to under-designed DPS classes, I really don't get how they signed off on that one :(:(:(
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    Imo devs made their point clearly.
    They tolerate fast runs, tolerate megabuffs, tolerate that DPS classes are nearly from no use and by that made every player jump towards his DC, OP, GF to run endcontent.
    DPS classes , some more than others, are praying and running dailies or low level dungeons, no progress possible.
    I would say the level of imbalance reached it's toplevel by implementing a dungeon only doable in an acceptable time by those buff groups.

    Honestly, I can´t read that chat any more: "OP-DC-DC", it makes me vomit and I really can´t stand, running that one class myself any more... too stupid
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • commanderdata002commanderdata002 Member Posts: 312 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    This topic is just another example how GWF QQ choir works...



    Sorry guys, I play both CW and GWF in endgame and both work well.

    Sorry guy. I have both close to Bis CW and GWF but I usually use GWF for Tong.
    Boss fights are shorter due to the GWF(or HR) superior single target dmg. Trash maybe shorter but who cares? They melt easy anyhow and bosses are the key in dungeons.
    Recent dungeons are not made like pre mod6 with infinite horde of mobs which can be controlled.

    Indeed Sorcerer should be brought to this game,

    Btw with the current meta 4 buffers +1 dps skilled CWs/TRs or even SWs can make good time in Tong indeed but that proves nothing. If the meta was 2-3 dps again then the difference would be much clearer.
    And in buffer-heavy environment like Tiamat/Msva HRs and GWFs are wash the floor with others.


    Post edited by commanderdata002 on
    stock and stone I can master, but there's a Wizard to manage here!
  • muratttimurattti Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 417 Arc User
    lol
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,398 Arc User
    akanaro said:

    I really want to know where all these notions of GWF being OP comes from. I have played a GWF for a while now and I'm squishy as hell and I never make top DPS in instances when there's a slightly higher IL DPS of a different class in there with me. I mean if the class was OP then I should still out DPS those guys right? Yes we are tougher but we have to stand on top of bosses to hit them. We're a melee class, not ranged. We need to be tough because we soak up 10 times as much damage as ranged classes. And even though we're tougher I can tell you we're still squishy for where we need to be. Some boss fights you just don't do without a good healer as a GWF because you can't.

    People look at a few top geared GWF's with transcendent enchants in all slots and they cry "He's too OP!". Put any of the other DPS classes in similar gear and it will be a close thing I tell you.

    Perceived "balance" by the devs.

    Theoretically, CW's range+CC+superior mob damage was designed to compensate for squishy wizard syndrome and mediocre single target DPS.

    Except... with newer modules, mobs die quickly, are CC immune, and buff range forces CW to fight in close quarters, thus negating any perceived "defensive advantages" and leaving CW as a squishy DPS class whose single target DPS aspect just worse than GWF and GF.

    Another thing I'd like to point out is that I don't think any classes, save for TR (Stealth) and CW (Storm Spell+Eye of the Storm), were designed around slinging lots of Crits. The fighters favor a slower but harder hitting approach, whereas the Crit reliant classes rely on large amounts of Critical hits to keep pace/do more damage. With Bonding stones, everyone has 100% Crit. Which means that any designs of "guaranteed Crits are special" don't hold up as well.

  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,447 Arc User
    Steel Time and Icy Terrain have kept CW up close and personal since launch. Suddens Storm is close in as well. The old meatball was too erratic for long range combat, leaving just Conduit as a ranged power that was commonly used in most fights.

    Even before the meta turned to CW as DPS machines, Sing and Shield Pop required the caster to be right in the middle of everything, or rather just off to the side.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • ragequittingdc#8599 ragequittingdc Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    .> @schietindebux said:
    > Imo devs made their point clearly.
    > They tolerate fast runs, tolerate megabuffs, tolerate that DPS classes are nearly from no use and by that made every player jump towards his DC, OP, GF to run endcontent.
    > DPS classes , some more than others, are praying and running dailies or low level dungeons, no progress possible.
    > I would say the level of imbalance reached it's toplevel by implementing a dungeon only doable in an acceptable time by those buff groups.
    >
    > Honestly, I can´t read that chat any more: "OP-DC-DC", it makes me vomit and I really can´t stand, running that one class myself any more... too stupid



    actually the devs are working right now to put an end to 2 DC groups. it's already established that they do not want adding more buff characters to out weigh adding more dps characters in group content like tomb. there's another slot opened up for a dps that you're looking for. it sort of makes this thread redundant.
    im actually the gwf carry
  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User


    actually the devs are working right now to put an end to 2 DC groups. it's already established that they do not want adding more buff characters to out weigh adding more dps characters in group content like tomb. there's another slot opened up for a dps that you're looking for. it sort of makes this thread redundant.

    Nice to hear that, otherwise i really would delete this game or delete the chatwindow to end this torture and go Sharandar all day long
  • lukejones77lukejones77 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 282 Arc User
    edited November 2017


    actually the devs are working right now to put an end to 2 DC groups. it's already established that they do not want adding more buff characters to out weigh adding more dps characters in group content like tomb. there's another slot opened up for a dps that you're looking for. it sort of makes this thread redundant.

    No way does it make this thread redundant.
    The issue in this thread isn't about having 1 less buff member in the meta party - it's about content finally being tough, and the large imbalance between DPS classes vying for relevancy in parties.
    If you have classes like GWF and GF doing superior damage and superior survivability, against squishy classes doing inferior damage, then the squishy classes still have a discriminatory problem.
    Perhaps you swap out a buff (DC) for a healing SW, which is great for maligned SWs, but there's still the TR and SS CW left out in the cold. Alternatively, it's a swap out of a buff member for an additional GWF.

    A "fix" like this actually makes the problem worse. These imbalances have existed for over 2 years. The TONG party composition just makes it very obvious.
    DEVs need to fix the imbalance for all the prejudiced classes. When you have a problem, you need to fix it, not stick make up on the visible symptoms.

    The really bad thing is that it's quite possible that the DEVs have deluded themselves into thinking that they've actually achieved class balance, and just have a buffing problem. They've done nothing for over 2 years to address the "GWF vs DPS CW" relevancy imbalance. I get that they want to decrease buffing, but they also really need to take good notice of the imbalance amongst which DPS classes are making it into TONG buff parties. There is *nothing* like an even spread across GWF, SS CW, TR and SW.
  • dafrca#4810 dafrca Member Posts: 469 Arc User

    Indeed Sorcerer should be brought to this game,

    Do we really need another class or do we need the classes that already exist balanced and cleaned up first? :/

  • gromovnipljesak#8234 gromovnipljesak Member Posts: 1,050 Arc User
    Okay, I haven't read all the posts here, but according to some people, GWFs have a fuckton of defensive and offensive capabilities, and CWs and others are underpowered.
    And, let me explain why that is HAMSTER. My 12k CW has about 5k defense, and my gwf has (drumroll)... 6k. Because lifesteal.
    And about other classes not doing DPS... bull*.
    My GWF is a pretty good little GWF, can beat higher geared GWFs in TONG, and no one rushes ahead of the tank in TONG. But a CW that has about 1k higher IL than me can literally DOUBLE my DPS.
    HRs are the same, if you play it right you can curb-stomp anyone with it.
    TRs and SWs are looking for a massive rework.

    All these fellas whining about "oooh GWFs are so op" blablabla... that's not true. GWFs are just easy to play right, therefore more easy to reach the DPS ceiling. CWs and HRs are harder to play, and therefore less people can reach the max a CW can do. Heck, I did a few runs with a 13.3k GWF in dungeons, and I consistently matched or exceeded him.

    And look at this from another side - if you nerf GWF DPS, they'll have literally nothing. SWs can still heal to some extent, CWs can buff/debuff and so on. I do agree that SWs and TRs need a buff, but another nerf in any class is just dumb bs.
  • rjc9000rjc9000 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 2,398 Arc User

    Indeed Sorcerer should be brought to this game,

    Do we really need another class or do we need the classes that already exist balanced and cleaned up first? :/

    We need to have more instancess in which old level creep is the new standard of power, only for us to figure out that some classes can't compete in the new power standard and the devs doing nothing to adjust it.

    :trollface:

  • ragequittingdc#8599 ragequittingdc Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    > @lukejones77 said:
    > actually the devs are working right now to put an end to 2 DC groups. it's already established that they do not want adding more buff characters to out weigh adding more dps characters in group content like tomb. there's another slot opened up for a dps that you're looking for. it sort of makes this thread redundant.
    >
    > No way does it make this thread redundant.
    > The issue in this thread isn't about having 1 less buff member in the meta party - it's about content finally being tough, and the large imbalance between DPS classes vying for relevancy in parties.
    > If you have classes like GWF and GF doing superior damage and superior survivability, against squishy classes doing inferior damage, then the squishy classes still have a discriminatory problem.
    > Perhaps you swap out a buff (DC) for a healing SW, which is great for maligned SWs, but there's still the TR and SS CW left out in the cold. Alternatively, it's a swap out of a buff member for an additional GWF.
    >
    > A "fix" like this actually makes the problem worse. These imbalances have existed for over 2 years. The TONG party composition just makes it very obvious.
    > DEVs need to fix the imbalance for all the prejudiced classes. When you have a problem, you need to fix it, not stick make up on the visible symptoms.
    >
    > The really bad thing is that it's quite possible that the DEVs have deluded themselves into thinking that they've actually achieved class balance, and just have a buffing problem. They've done nothing for over 2 years to address the "GWF vs DPS CW" relevancy imbalance. I get that they want to decrease buffing, but they also really need to take good notice of the imbalance amongst which DPS classes are making it into TONG buff parties. There is *nothing* like an even spread across GWF, SS CW, TR and SW.




    the thread isn't about 1 less buff giving room for 1 more dps in tomb or better put a spot at all for ss cw, then what is it about? after a few glances, "pls devs nerf gwf", because what the HAMSTERS is gwf vs dps cw relevancy inbalance, seriously? gwf is to be based around how strong a ss cw can become when gwf has only one viable option if they want to have a spot at all in pve? I've read a few times on here the fastest run was done with no dps classes at all, that should be your talking point if anything else.

    why does the fastest run feature no dps? a ss cw should be able to hop in there and speed it up. this is a concern that is legit, not why are you not getting the lions share of paingiver and in turn not giving first dibs in any group comp, meta(that will soon be trashed) or otherwise. if you have that much of a problem with not getting groups find a better guild or make your own group, the tr and sw are right there at the port waiting for you to invite them. the devs have tested if the group comp is doable before releasing it, so you can be the change you want to see any day now.
    im actually the gwf carry
  • mentinmindmakermentinmindmaker Member Posts: 1,395 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    This thread is not about 'doable', but about 'desirable'.

    People will always want to do stuff the easiest way, and currently the easiest way by far is OP-GF-DC-DC-GWF.

    The problem is that the difference is so big that replacing the GWF with another dps class is a bad option. HRs could maybe replace the GWF, but CW/SW/TR seems to be no viable option at all.

    Which leaves those 3 classes out in the cold.

    I fear that the devs are thinking that the problem will be fixed when they make it less desirable to run 2 DCs. It might be eased a little, but very likely the demand will just move to OP-GF-DC-GWF-GWF. The root problem is that there is a huge difference in desirability between the GWFs and the other dps classes.

    But it is worth noting that there are more problems on the class balance scene than just dps balance:
    * Dps class balance with GWF being the preferred dps class by far
    * OPs seems to be the by far preferred tank - few GF's maintank Tong but play in buff/dps role
    * DCs outshining other buff classes so we get 2 DC runs
    * Buffs being too strong in general so we get tank-3xbuff-dps runs as the best setup. Since the game otherwise promotes tank-heal-3 dps groups, this is a problem as there will be no room for many of the dps players in the endgame

    I really do hope Cryptic keeps making heavy and challenging content. But it is not going to work well unless class balances are addressed so all classes have equal desirability in their primary roles, and the tank-heal-3 dps setup is also the standard for the heavy dungeons.

    The game is about having fun, and when large segments of the playerbase are shut out it just creates frustration and malcontent.
  • lukejones77lukejones77 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 282 Arc User


    the thread isn't about 1 less buff giving room for 1 more dps in tomb or better put a spot at all for ss cw, then what is it about?
    ....

    The title of the thread is "GWF and Mage classes".
    The tension here is between the high desirability of one DPS class over the nerfed design of the other, with respect to vying for relevancy to the meta.
    The idea that maybe the DEVs might make one less buffer desirable, necessarily implies that DPS CWs will suddenly not be so undesirable compared to a GWF, and therefore this thread becomes redundant, is.... very clearly flawed.
    In fact, if they make 3 to 4 player buff stacking less desirable, it's also likely to affect the the relevancy of the CW as a MoF buffer, which also takes away the CW option to dump their favourite build and play style for a support role. Makes it worse.
    Given the clear imbalances, the obvious go to if 1 less buffer is desirable, is to double up on GWFs - clearly making the GWF - CW gap even worse than it is.




  • bodini72bodini72 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 72 Arc User
    Every single person in this thread that has come here are whinned that all we are trying to do is ask for a nerf has used the excuses that

    a. the gwf has only 1 thing it can do and if you take that away then they have nothing.

    Sorry to tell you but that doesn't change a thing in the scope of this post. The CLASS IMBALANCE between the GWF and the CW (and SW,TR and even HR) needs to be addressed. The GWF is supposed to have a tank spec, right? Why aren't any of you GWF's pushing to make that a viable spec as that would bring depth to a very shallow class.

    b. All we are hearing is nerf the GWF cause they have top DPS

    For ALL of you using that as your excuse, you obviously are not reading the comments here and as far as i'm concerned you have no place in this discussion if you cannot get on track and discuss ALL THE ISSUES PRESENTED HERE.

    c. the fastest TONG run was without a GWF

    That may or may not be true but like I stated above, you are obviously not reading the comments here. Repeatedly people tried to explain that the class imbalance as a DPS class makes the GWF the more desirable in TONG by a very large margin over the CW (AND SW,TR,HR).

    I posted this earlier in the trhead and feel it needs to be shown again for all those using the above excuses to dismiss the CLASS IMBALANCE between the GWF and the CW (and SW,TR,HR).


    The FACT that the GWF is among the top DPS classes isn't the issue at all. The FACT that the GWF is

    Among the top MELEE single target DPS
    Among the top Melee AOE DPS
    Can off tank in the same spec/gear as DPS
    Has the best survivability of all non tanking classes in the same spec/gear as dps spec
    Becomes immune to just about every single negative effect in the game in same said spec/gear
    Has speed burst to act/react positivelt to just about any situation neeeded in said spec/gear
    The ultra simple playstyle and ease in reaching said max dps is moreso than any other class in the game also in said spec/gear


    It is all of these things and probably more that I didn't mention that we are talkiing about. Not just boo hoo TOP DPS boo hoo.
  • c3rb3r3c3rb3r3 Member Posts: 277 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    bodini72 said:

    The GWF is supposed to have a tank spec, right? Why aren't any of you GWF's pushing to make that a viable spec as that would bring depth to a very shallow class.

    Problem is, that supposed tank spec doesn't give the tools to be a real tank : the whole tree is about trying to make crappy powers "ok" and give self buffs, yet they're still so bad. Sentinel (and powers) doesn't give enough tools to keep the threat neither do they have buffs like GF have (only Battle Fury but the power itself is very bad without Relentless Battle Fury feat which is in the Destroyer Tree and you can't take it from Sentinel).

    Even a BiS Sentinel is not comparable to a mere 12k GF.
  • bodini72bodini72 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 72 Arc User
    c3rb3r3 said:

    bodini72 said:

    The GWF is supposed to have a tank spec, right? Why aren't any of you GWF's pushing to make that a viable spec as that would bring depth to a very shallow class.

    Problem is, that supposed tank spec doesn't give the tools to be a real tank : the whole tree is about trying to make crappy powers "ok" and give self buffs, yet they're still so bad. Sentinel (and powers) doesn't give enough tools to keep the threat neither do they have buffs like GF have (only Battle Fury but the power itself is very bad without Relentless Battle Fury feat which is in the Destroyer Tree and you can't take it from Sentinel).

    Even a BiS Sentinel is not comparable to a mere 12k GF.
    That is exactly my point. The spec given to enable the class to be multi dimensional and competitive to other classes of the same role doesn't live up to expectations.

    So my question is why aren't the GWF's coming here and demanding it be fixed or in other words demand class balance.

  • lantern22lantern22 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,111 Arc User
    bodini72 said:

    typical gwf at level 70 with 10-12k il will have somewhere around 10-15k defense.. ALL OTHER DPS CLASSES have around 3k defense.

    My DPS specced 10.7K GWF has 5.7k defence when bondings proc
  • c3rb3r3c3rb3r3 Member Posts: 277 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    bodini72 said:


    So my question is why aren't the GWF's coming here and demanding it be fixed or in other words demand class balance.

    We've been asking it since the release of the game, which is 4+ years. You get easily fed up when you're completely ignored.

    And when I say ignored, there is not even a talk about it.

    Oh, my bad, Sentinel and Instigator got changed once. Sentinel at mod 4, then got instantly heavy nerfed because "Hurr durr too good PVP", and Instigator at mod 5 and was never a thing. Both tree are reaaally bad.


    Out of 5 At-wills, 2 are completely garbage, plus 1 which cannot be used because the tree doesn't make it usable
    Out of 12 Class features, 7 are completely garbage, plus 3 of them that are too niche (BiS, Lightning or GF path => loss of Swordmaster+WMS)
    Out of 6 Dailies, 3 are garbage, plus 1 viable only with Destroyer Feat (Slam's).
    Out of 14 encounters, 9 are garbage, plus 3 feats dependant else useless.
    The majority of Sentinel/Instigator feats suck, have zero synergy between eachother and some of them have nothing to do here (damage on marked target and crit in tank tree for example)

    It's been said many times for years and players got bored of being ignored, that's it. Since the moment Cryptic saw a good number of both playrate and sucess (as a DPS) they just stopped thinking about the class, believing it was doing ok.

    Even if i'm against a damage nerf, I guess it would make advance the state of the class, since apparently you need extreme things to happen to provoke changes.
  • ragequittingdc#8599 ragequittingdc Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited November 2017
    the thing is, there have already been accounts taken of any group comp being viable though, not just doable.


    > The title of the thread is "GWF and Mage classes".


    that is true and yet the main talking point that ss cw isn't desirable has become centered around tomb numbers. the "imbalance" everywhere else is just not a thing, atleast I have not personally seen it. leaving out t1/t2, because there is no way you're about to tell me dps cw can't get a group there because they are too weak and not desirable; fbi sva msva mspc, any of these pieces of content easily have groups that will take dps cw and when it comes down to paingiver racing among gwf/cw/hr, in rare cases sw/tr, the one with the best combination of skill, ilvl, and gear will overtake the others.

    I remember(ps4) when fbi and sva was first released. there was a very strict prejudice against bringing gwf and ranged dps were the meta because it was considered easier. I do not remember "gwf vs ranged classes balancing" threads being posted on the forums. to be fair, you might have seen some salt though. wether or not the 2 dc group comp change will mean just adding another gwf is not written in stone. those group comps are still asking for 15-16k+ players, so more than likely a 15k cw(dps or buff) is getting in over a 12-13-14k gwf.



    GWF is supposed to have a tank spec, right? Why aren't any of you GWF's pushing to make that a viable spec
    The FACT that the GWF is
    >
    > Among the top MELEE single target DPS
    > Among the top Melee AOE DPS
    > Can off tank in the same spec/gear as DPS
    > Has the best survivability of all non tanking classes in the same spec/gear as dps spec
    > Becomes immune to just about every single negative effect in the game in same said spec/gear
    > Has speed burst to act/react positivelt to just about any situation neeeded in said spec/gear
    > The ultra simple playstyle and ease in reaching said max dps is moreso than any other class in the game also in said spec/gear



    who said gwf mains never asked for that? I personally have contributed to such a thread hoping for instigator and sentinel reworks. I have also come to accept that pve gwf as is, is a pure dps class, and it's much more difficult to be very good at it than it is given credit for, as well as very expensive. what does that have to do with this thread through?


    gwf is among the top aoe and single target dps and then, when talking about t3, that is where your list should end. the non-tanking class with the most survivability is not gwf, it's dc. there's a 5 dc group tong vid out there. immunity to most(not all) stuns and ability to run around fast, this is essential to a class that has to step on a mobs toes to maximize their output, not so much a class that can stand just outside of the stun or 1 shot aoe.
    im actually the gwf carry
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