Would be good to know what spurned this proposed change?
Is it the fact that 1 person can queue for a dungeon/skirmish and complete now solo? Kessels for example 6 mins solo and done - no need to form group - no faffing - you do it at your pace and done. You get all the drops, go at your own pace with no hassle and no need to worry about anyone else.
Its definitely not to foster a positive environment - is it that the servers can't support so many # where solo players are doing content themselves rather than pugging. It doesn't add up.....
Greetings adventurers, this thread is for providing bug reports and feedback on the following topic:
Random Queues
Bonus AD Rewards
Rough AD per daily bonus run (before → after):
Skirmish 2250 → 3000
Dungeon 4500 → 4000
Epic Dungeon N/A → 5000
Epic Trial N/A → 3000
Hero’s Accord N/A → 5000
PvP 3000 → 5000
Goals of Random Queues
Before I dive into some of the finer details some of you may be wondering about, I would first like to talk about why we are introducing random queues. Here are the goals we set out (not necessarily in order of importance):
Ensure all queues are firing in a reasonable time frame, regardless of popularity.
Reduce burnout from running the same queue ad nauseum by introducing variety.
Make it clear when you are eligible for and when you receive daily bonus AD and seals.
Provide further bonuses for those players who can master the most difficult content.
Incentivize playing roles that are currently underplayed to reduce queue wait times.
Incentivize helping players who are new to a queue to foster a positive environment.
And with the assumption that an unstated goal is to alleviate the "Healer" shortage in the puglist due to the current meta of 2 DC 2 Tank 1 DPS and allow more players to play consistently.
****BIG NOTE - You may Random Queue with a full party from your Guild/Alliance, the proposed system does NOT require you to run with Randy's, but it does require you to have the correct party composition. This is actually a good thing, right now there are gobs and gobs of DPS who can't get a run for anything.
Three distinct queue group types will exist in the new queue system: Random, Deliberate, Private. Deliberate meaning the ability to choose which content you run.
There need to be different tiers to the Epic Dungeon, such as already exist in the queuing system. Failure to allow people at 7500IL to gain AD for the dungeons they can rightfully try their hands at hurts the player base in two large ways. 1. They have a harder time earning AD for upgrades. 2. They end up with 11k IL and no clue how to play their class in a group setting.
The need also exists to split the rewards between queue types, as you have described, but I don't feel that removing current rewards from the Deliberate Queue group is a positive step forward. I think there is plenty of room to offer greater AD incentives for running content while capping it out cumulatively*, which I will explain after this "table" (I'm not great at formatting in the forums, my apologies.)
*Cumulative AD works for Tiers of dungeons only. AD Rewards for queues Type >> Random >>>> Deliberate >>>> Private Skirmish >> 3000 >>>> 2250 >>>> 1125 Dungeons >> 3000 >>>> 1500 >>>> 1000 T1 Dungeons >> 3000 >>>> 2500 >>>> 2000 T2 Dungeons >> 4000 >>>> 3500 >>>> 3000 T3 Dungeons >> 5000 >>>> 4500 >>>> 4000 Epic Trial >> 3000 >>>> 2500 >>>> 2000 Hero's Accord >> 7000 >>>> 6500 >>>> 6000 PVP >> 5000 >>>> 4000 >>>> 0
All amounts earned once per day. All amounts cumulative. I.E. you Private Queue for a T1 dungeon, you earn 2000 AD. You then queue for a T3 Random dungeon, you earn the balance of 3000 AD, for a max of 5000 AD total per day.
Additionally impose the following loot rules and bonuses*
Private queues: 1. All drops Bound to Account. No longer a farming choice for end game, but a great tool to teach players to run the content and earn decent rewards for yourself, or try off the wall runs. 2. Add a one a day bonus of 3x Epic Stronghold vouchers. Add a repeatable bonus of 1x Rare Stronghold voucher per run. Encourages guilds and Alliances to continue to run Private content.
Deliberate Queues: 1. Add a chance for a Mark of Potency, Greater Mark of Potency, or Superior Mark of Potency (all unbound) to drop in the chests of the T2 dungeons (the ones that do not have a second chest to open). 2. Bind Status of rewards remain unchanged.
Random Queues: 1. Once per day free campaign chest open. Eliminates the issue of possibly not having the correct key for the dungeon, gives the chance for double drops which increases the value of running the dungeon by a lot. 2. Add a chance for a Greater Mark of Potency, or Superior Mark of Potency (all unbound) to drop in the chests of the T2 dungeons (the ones that do not have a second chest to open). 3. Add once a day 10 Dungeon Shard drop. Makes up for not queuing for the specific dungeon your guild needs you to run and eliminates friction in guilds.
Bonus for Seals can remain as is, but you need to add Voninblod to the Seal merchant, currently you cannot earn armor with seals if you do cannot go to Bryn Shander, which is a huge block in newbie/alt progression. I cannot stress this enough, this oversight means it is harder to upgrade for new players than before Mod 12, not easier.
New Player bonus is a cool idea.
Role Bonus - For roles that are needed to balance the random queue out, make the role bonus a free unlock of the Campaign Currency chest per run, and make the bonus for the T2 dungeons that do not have these chests an extra guaranteed, unbound drop from the boss.
Hero's Accord - This needs to be fixed so that new dungeons do not get added until the module after they are released (I.E. the new dungeon for Mod 13 wouldn't be added to the queue until 13B), or this will be a massive failure. If I suddenly cannot get the AD from this queue for 3-6 weeks for whatever reason, this is a waste of developer time. Alternatively remove the unlock requirements from the dungeons in campaigns and instead add a quest at the appropriate point in the campaign to complete the dungeon. These unlocks only serve to split the community, the only wall off on new content should be the new Item Level requirement.
Leaver penalty is unfortunately unavoidable. Please modify so that if a player does not enter the blue circle for a door (Boss fight, etc) for a reasonable amount of time (5 minutes? 10 minutes? I'd rather it be 3 or less but since the spawns sometimes start you at the beginning it would be better to err on the long side here) cumulative (I.E. you can't step in it, and then reset it when you step out) while the remaining 4 players are waiting for that player, then that player gets kicked and incurs the leaver penalty. This isn't a perfect solution, but it's a step in the right direction to deal with trolls. It might need to be 3 players, I have encountered dungeon runs in recent times where we could not progress due to two players refusing to stand in the blue.
And finally, so we are all on the same page on Dungeon tiers and Skirmishes, etc.
Skirmishes - Master of the Hunt, Dread Legion, Illusionists Gambit, Prophecy of Madness***, Throne of the Dwarven Gods***, Shores of Teurn***, Kessels Retreat***, and any applicable Call to Arms / Leveling Skirmish***.
T1 Dungeons - Dungeons requiring 7500 IL, Lair of Lostmauth**, Valindra's Tower**, Malabog's Castle**.
T2 Dungeons - Dungeons Requiring 8400(is it 8500? Can never remember), Master Temple of the Spider, Master Cragmire Crypts, Master Grey Wolf Den, Castle Never**.
T3 Dungeons - Dungeons requiring 11,000 IL, Fangbreaker Island**, Master Spellplague Caverns(Can't remember if this has a second chest or not).
** Denotes Campaign Currency chest present. *** Could we get level scaled versions of these available at endgame? Missed a few on the way through and have no way short of leveling up a new character to ever play them again. Just something to throw in your notes somewhere.
Thanks for taking the time to read the feedback. I like the direction you want to go with the upcoming changes.
Wanted to add that this is a future proof system. When new tiers of Dungeons come, drop all the dungeons down by 1 tier, creating a bigger T1 dungeon pool and keeping the rewards tables largely unchanged.
Moreover, you're forcing us to work together with complete strangers to earn AD from dungeons.
This is a misconception, and I for one would appreciate if people didn't continue hitting on it as a talking point because it's drawing attention away from the real issues.
I think this in fact core to the major distaste that we are feeling with this proposed change. We will be publicly queueing to be put in a RANDOM group of people for some RANDOM Dungeon/skirmish which we may or may not have a key for. Rather than choose to run with friends/guild members - we can off-course go private and run but with no AD reward as is currently stands and proposed - only salvage off course.
You've made the same mistake Becky was talking about. Nothing stops you from forming a party with all your friends, then queueing AS A GROUP for "a dungeon at random" and receiving AD and seals. You don't have to queue solo for this. However, you can't form "a group for ECC" without forfeiting all your AD and seals.
Except annoying issue and that the public requirements are forced. Must have 1 healer, 1 Tank, 3 DPS per 5 people.
And the worst issue, that you need to unlock FBI to maybe do VT.
This, exactly this.
Although as a silly side benefit perhaps it will teach people that 2DC isn't necessary even for FBI. Especially if we start seeing more "dps" classes filling support roles (SW, CW, and HR whee).
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
meh.. i run stuff all the time with just one dc.. sure its slightly longer.. but jeepers, most of us dont just make "perfect party compositions)
I just did FBI a week ago with a barely there entry op.. sure we had some slightly more deaths then would be optimal and I had to drop to healing .. and it took like 45 mins or something.. but who cares.
not everyone just makes every group into 2 dcs groups.. its just optimal.. because they made it optimal.
But even so.. I promise you there are thousands of runs a day without 2 dcs..
silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
I cant even get my mind around how bad this change is..
because.. again implementation.
no one should have to do all the campaigns or most of them, just to enter some t1s..
It has some good points.. but its so hindered at the current formation of implementation, that is terrible.
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ichimaruginxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 230Arc User
edited September 2017
Dear devs,
There is simply no point that the devs and the community's time are being wasted on this. This change is unneeded as proven by all the feedback here. The CURRENT queues are working fine, additional rewards for random queue are always welcomed AS AN OPTION but not a mandatory curse.
If implementing the random queue function is really such a priority, a queue all button for each category can be added instead of a total new bogus of mess. Please, this is proving to be something quite insulting to the players that actually play your game.
silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
i still think this is so driven by consoles.. more then pc.. this isnt a pc issue, I think forced queues seem more like a console issue.
Too bad they made a decision to force us into 100% the same more or less..
There are thousands of runs, at all i levels.. I dont even look at I levels when Im just farming AD.. some dude wants to run VT, I just jump with it.. i dont care if they have green everything on.. I just go do a run.
Sure the very highest content, you maybe look at a more optimal pathing.. but not all of us do all runs with 2 dcs/1op/1gf and 1 dps.. thats just optimal.. but plenty people run with much different varying degrees of everything.
In my alliance if you ask for someone , you take them , its as simple as that..
again stop trying to force a nanny state on us, give us incentives to run queue instead.
This should be an option for bonus extra ad on top of your daily bonus ad rewards only.
No one seems to be mentioning that dungeon ilvls minimum requirements are way to low for the recent content.
If you want a true representation of what ilvls are required for content, you devs need to be in game and monitoring lfg/private channels..
For example tong is 14k+ and even at 14k some groups are hit or miss. Fbi would have severe difficulty at 12k without dcs. Msva was another did not finish unless 14k+
Random queues would need drastically higher minimum ilvls to guarantee completion, (which negates the helping the newbie idea).
Due to the fluid nature of certain builds for certain classes, You need to allow players to queue up for certain roles rather than class.. Tank, heal, support (buff/debuff), dps. Got a buff/dps gf queue up as support. Got a templock queue up as heal. Pure buff dc queue as support only. This would allow people who want to queue quickly to queue as tank or heal over dps or support. Have the role clearly defined at start of dungeon so people know what their role is (no sneaking in as tank trs for example).
Again want to highlight you are trying to fix a symptom rather than the cause... If you had spent all the development hours on a) bug fixing b) class balance and c) dungeon rewards/time rate - you probably wouldn't have to come up with this rubbish.
Hint:- Devs need to ask themselves the following questions-
Why are the queues not popping? Why is there a lack of healers and tanks? Why is the current group meta 2 x DCs?, 2 Tanks (1OP/1GF), 1 DPS? What is this power sharing everyone is talking about? Why are bondings so much more powerful than other enchants? Are all of the above related????
anti-botting strategy sounds like an excuse to me and a really lazy one this is a way to take your AD from dungeons once again thy take your AD from professions (anti-botting strategy) they take your AD from praying (anti-botting strategy) and now this wake up people this is becoming a pay or pay game is no longer enough for us to just play the game they want to take as much as they can from us if it was just to help new players and to help you with the boring task of doing dungeons they will just put it as an OPTION, yes give it to us as an option but no you make people get used to accepting the second best deal just like with the runestons you planed all along to take away 35% from them and have people accept a cut just to keep the 100% up time . there is no real reason to not keep it as an OPTION unless is just out of greed. i say this before and i will say it again we don't trust you any more and trust is something you can't get back
I have several alt characters that have NOT done the following:
* not done IWD * not done SKT * not done Underdark quest chain * not done Maze Engine * not done River district * not done Chult * not completed Tyranny of Dragons campaign to where Shores of Tuern is unlocked * not completed all areas when leveling, as I overleveled some zones when leveling
Any one or combination of the above will keep said characters out of various random queues for Skirmish/Dungeon/Epic Dungeon/Trials.
I guess what I am really asking is do I need to unlock all the content to have access to any of the content for the purposes of earning AD?
Some examples.. * unlock Shores of Tuern to have access to the random skirmish qeueue? * complete the Underdark campaign to to have access to the epic Trial queue? * complete the River District or first part of Storm King Thunder to have access to the random Epic dungeon queue?
If it requires unlocking all content to have access to the random queues and the AD rewards therein is indeed the case... bad idea.. bad form.
I can't imagine myself grinding through Underdark campaign/SKT/River district on the 4-5 alts I play. Imagine now requiring a new player to grind trhough every campaign to the point of unlocking FBI/MSP.. just to get access to random dungeon queue for bonus AD rewards .. like LOL or Valindra or Malabog castle queue..
That elicits an UGH... and another bad form chastisement.
Post edited by baeyorn on
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
most of the worst things they have done to us , was in the guise of anti botting strategies.. cant think of too many that worked out for the average player tbh..
this is why I dont care about thier anti botting strategies..
because usually its a nuke everything.. and see what sticks philosophy.
Its thier job to protect thier wallet.. not mine, I only care when it impacts me personally (by making the game less fun)
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
I'm willing to take Asterdahl's word for it that anti-botting wasn't a goal, but a side-effect.
But I think I've been pretty clear on how much I think this hurts players far more than helps them.
I have always supported the dev's and Cryptic when changes were done that needed to be done. I always preached..."for the best of the Game!", even when you started playing with the sacred cow of Bonding Runestones. But you have now even got me thinking about why and there is no way I can even begin to tell people that it is for the good of the game because there is nothing in this that adds to the players experience at all!
All I am seeing is we are now being TOLD what content to play or else pay real money to get what you need in game because there will be no revenue stream unless you do as you are told!
Mod 6 took out a huge amount of content and left us with a broken game for over 2 months. Yes you listened to the players and fixed the game making it playable again, but here we are a year later without our content still and NOW you are telling us what content to play to succeed.
I have spent 4 years defending you and your decisions as I have seen the benefit to the game of most of them, but this one is totally wrong and totally a slap in the face of the people that brought you to the dance. The people that helped make Neverwinter a top 10 FREE TO PLAY game for the last 4 years.
One streamer had just offered a challenge to others to build a new player from scratch and prove that the game truly is free to play by building slowly, over time and getting to the top tiers of the game again. You have just eliminated any chance of this succeeding, and proving your FREE TO PLAY label is more than just words. It now should be FREE TO PLAY AS LONG AS YOU DO EXACTLY LIKE WE TELL YOU OR ELSE OPEN YOUR WALLET PLEASE.
I am severely disappointed in this direction and the exclusion and elitism it will create and promote. I am hoping that cooler heads prevail and discussions are heard and taken seriously. I do not want to live through another Mod 6 RAGE QUIT flood . Please reconsider and talk to your players about this and make the right decision.
Still your supporter but becoming very hard to justify it right now. Please help me become an unquestioned supporter again. This is a bad decision and needs to be stopped dead and discussed more with the players before changes of this drastic a nature are made.
i still think this is so driven by consoles.. more then pc.. this isnt a pc issue, I think forced queues seem more like a console issue.
...
God no, not one player I've told about this change is the least bit pleased about it, actually most laughed and think I'm joking/lying, because they cant understand why Cryptic would do such a dumb thing
As previously stated, "Random Queue's" would be a great ADDITION, but sure as HAMSTER not a replacement...
We want to choose what Dungeon we run, and still get RAD & loot, the loot part seem to have been forgotten lately?
Im not really adding anything new, but want to add the to voices why there is still a chance to change the way this is implemented.
I feel like this is a blow to guilds. Many of my guildmates are people that almost never run pug groups. They have had too many bad experiences with players being rude and abusive and joined a guild to escape that. They are here to enjoy themselves not to be forced to run with people that make their experience unpleasant. I'm sorry new players and unguilded people are having trouble finding groups to run with but these changes aren't going to do anything to keep people from abusing other players when they cant complete their dungeon AND no one can quit without a penalty. We shouldn't have to choose between having fun and progressing. By putting AD behind the random queue, that's what we are faced with. (yes, i know we can still run the random queue with friends, but as people have already pointed out, that comes with its own complications and barriers)
So what if we want to run Temple of the Spider 1 or 100 times in a day if that's the way we choose to spend our time? Especially since I run with guild/alliance only groups and, therefore, would not be benefiting random people anyway. We are capable of making our own random queues. We do lots of different dungeons to mix things up when we get bored. We dont need someone else checking the boxes for us. There are certain dungeons we stay away from because very few of our people are well geared enough, and those that are, find it a time-consuming pain and just not fun. (I'm looking at you MSP).
They act like people were being forced to run ETOS before, and thats why they quit. The irony now is they really are forcing people to run ETOS.
People have been crying for MORE choices...not someone making their choices from a list of the same overplayed content.
There have been many reasonable and well articulated responses in this thread. I can't add anything new to them so I'm just going to get this off my chest - 100% cathartic tbh. This proposal will fail. Badly. You are wasting your time again, just like you did with Stronghold Siege because you are WAY out of touch with your players. Clueless would be a kind way of putting it. Big HE's in EE - no one ran them except to get motes. They aren't rewarding, they were made into a required means to an end . Camp Vengeance in Chult, barely touched. SKT, a good chunk of your server took a pass on it, because the grind was horrid. River District - Nonstura, Kabal and Gyrion BHE"s barely got more than a sniff. The SH Marauder's event that was touted with so much fanfare - noone runs more than phase one once a week for influence = Fail. So much wasted resources on unplayed or barely played content.
While you are "Observing" us like rats in a maze when this goes live, please hop "in game" and come experience some of the vitriol. I already know how I will replace my AD, it won't be by running your random queue. I most definitely will not be unlocking the one or two campaigns that are not entirely complete on one or two of my 8 primary characters. I would have considered purchasing the SKT campaign buy out on my DC before this. I don't think the company deserves to be rewarded for bad decisions though so I'll just keep my cash.
I've been here since mod 1 and have seen many bad choices, but I have stuck around because I like the combat and friendships. With each new Lead Dev I hope that the game will turn around - nope, still not happening. This proposal coupled with the bonding announcement has me genuinely worried that there will be another mass exodus. The chat windows have been toxic. Someone else nailed it on this thread, it's like terrible decision week at Cryptic. Your rewards and content are completely borked compared to what this game used to be, fix those and maybe people will want to queue up for them... and I'm sorry but your communication director; or whomever you have giving you tips on how to interact here, needs to find a new vocation. Avoiding a direct answer to straight forward questions will always elicit suspicion and distrust, and in the face of what you are proposing, sometimes rage and anger. Yes I'm angry. Because I want the game to survive. This change to rewards for playing will not help that. I don't think it's the worst decision I've seen Cryptic make since I started playing, but it's probably top 2.
I would rather that you spent your time making all the stuff that was taken away . Looking at Mod. 6 ,back into the game ,rather than wasting time on this.
I think the goals are good, but the implementation is not going to achieve them for all the reasons stated. People will simply ignore the random queue.
But one other thing: It's an extra-bad idea to roll this out at the same time as the bonding stone nerf. I'm not so gloom-and-doom about the nerf, but it WILL change things, and you can pretty much throw out all of your telemetry about how players run dungeons. I think it would be a good idea to let the bonding changes settle out and then re-evaluate the states of the dungeons.
Will we still get bonus AD for the first 2 non-random dungeons and 2 non-random skirmishes we do each day? Or is this kind of bonus replaced by the bonus from random queue? Because if the bonus astral diamond from random is ADDITIVE to the old bonus then this might be a good thing, but if it is a replacement it will only make grinding worse.
Also the requirement stuff is insane. I can't say HOW MUCH this negatively impacts alts. The need to unlock FBI and mSP just to randomly enter Malabog just to get bonus AD is the opposite of creating incentives for people to play.
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beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
Is this an addition or is it a replacement shouldn't even be a question. You just have to think a little bit about how it was presented.
Why would they be shown with a before-and-after comparison concluding "and look how much more you get!" if it was added to existing bonuses? Look at the totals we're told are available to earn. It's NOT proposed as an addition. Don't be holding onto that hope.
Well, then the devs are really going down a bad path. I hope that people here on this thread put enough pressure on them (like they did on the Bonding thread) to change things. I really love this game, but if they go through with this it will be extremely frustrating to gear up every alt that i have (one for each class), i'll probably leave NW and start to play Marvel Heroes.
The requirement thing should be based on item level not on "all dungeons unlocked/all epic dungeons unlocked/all skirmishes unlocked/etc". If you have 7,700 item level then you can queue for random stuff including Valindra, Malabog, Lair of Lostmauth and whatever else. If you have 8,4k then you can random queue for eTOS, eCC, eGWD, Castle Never, etc. And so on.
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blackmagidMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 111Arc User
Hi,
Simple enough question;
Stronghold cleric requires that I run eCC for coffer seals.
Stronghold cleric requires that I run eCC for coffer seals.
Will I still get AD for running it?
Thanks BlackMagi
From the unending Dev silence?
Not unless you happen to come across it in your Random Queue: Epic Dungeons.
Seriously, this seems like they decided to add RNG to our Time.
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
edited September 2017
It's simple, we kill the Batman.
Wait, WT.
I don't really care at this point, what's the point of pugging a possible eToS with a premade and you have to build the party for MSP in case it pops.
I'll just forget the bonus AD, and just concentrate on salvage in the dungeons I choose to pug with randoms or friends. If I really need the AD, I'll go LFG for eToS Multi runs in zergs for sub 10 minute runs, turn seals in for salvage, give salvage to ALTS when shared bank is full, rinse and repeat.
Run my daily 3xSH HE's on 2 characters and maybe one of those a large HE for the extra Power Shard. Both my mains run the Shard quest from the builder. Hand in SH Cleric Quests for shards, save all shards and influence for 2xGM events and buy MW profession stuff or maps for 2xProfessions. I do this on two characters as much as possible, depends how many requests I get from friends to run FBI/MSP etc or help friends/guildies or just run with them for fun.
Then run campaign dailies to make keys, When, say eLoL for example, is the next SH Cleric quest, I run eLoL, use Epic/Free Epic Key and the campaign key for extra loot/RP.
So no change really except when you claim I'll be getting an extra amazing 2k AD a day extra I'll be getting no bonus AD at all but this is how I play. If you find it acceptable that those who do not want to run dungeons this way should not get any bonus AD then I have to conclude your claim that my earning more AD is important to you is in actual fact false.
Others have said they will pug, with randoms or premades, if they get MSP or FBI, take the leaver penalty, go do dailies.
You might not like how I play, my time is currency, if you demand too much from me I'll invest my interests where my currencies are more valued.
I don't understand why you would use a stick to force players to change their playstyle when a carrot would have them chase it.
"However, if you queue with a full party of 5, the queue you arrive at will be truly random. "
So you CAN queue with 5 people? Then I don't see what's the big problem. Its funny that doomsayers are so loud that you can't see the essential of things...
I can go with my friend to random dungeons for more reward. Even if its fbi.
Lots of people in our guild Never makes a party. Only wants to be carried. This random queue is good for them too!
stock and stone I can master, but there's a Wizard to manage here!
Comments
Is it the fact that 1 person can queue for a dungeon/skirmish and complete now solo? Kessels for example 6 mins solo and done - no need to form group - no faffing - you do it at your pace and done. You get all the drops, go at your own pace with no hassle and no need to worry about anyone else.
Its definitely not to foster a positive environment - is it that the servers can't support so many # where solo players are doing content themselves rather than pugging. It doesn't add up.....
After some more thought and reading the responses from everyone in this thread I've come up with some alternatives for you to consider.
Firstly, so we're all on the same page And with the assumption that an unstated goal is to alleviate the "Healer" shortage in the puglist due to the current meta of 2 DC 2 Tank 1 DPS and allow more players to play consistently.
****BIG NOTE - You may Random Queue with a full party from your Guild/Alliance, the proposed system does NOT require you to run with Randy's, but it does require you to have the correct party composition. This is actually a good thing, right now there are gobs and gobs of DPS who can't get a run for anything.
Three distinct queue group types will exist in the new queue system: Random, Deliberate, Private. Deliberate meaning the ability to choose which content you run.
There need to be different tiers to the Epic Dungeon, such as already exist in the queuing system. Failure to allow people at 7500IL to gain AD for the dungeons they can rightfully try their hands at hurts the player base in two large ways.
1. They have a harder time earning AD for upgrades.
2. They end up with 11k IL and no clue how to play their class in a group setting.
The need also exists to split the rewards between queue types, as you have described, but I don't feel that removing current rewards from the Deliberate Queue group is a positive step forward. I think there is plenty of room to offer greater AD incentives for running content while capping it out cumulatively*, which I will explain after this "table" (I'm not great at formatting in the forums, my apologies.)
*Cumulative AD works for Tiers of dungeons only.
AD Rewards for queues
Type >> Random >>>> Deliberate >>>> Private
Skirmish >> 3000 >>>> 2250 >>>> 1125
Dungeons >> 3000 >>>> 1500 >>>> 1000
T1 Dungeons >> 3000 >>>> 2500 >>>> 2000
T2 Dungeons >> 4000 >>>> 3500 >>>> 3000
T3 Dungeons >> 5000 >>>> 4500 >>>> 4000
Epic Trial >> 3000 >>>> 2500 >>>> 2000
Hero's Accord >> 7000 >>>> 6500 >>>> 6000
PVP >> 5000 >>>> 4000 >>>> 0
All amounts earned once per day.
All amounts cumulative. I.E. you Private Queue for a T1 dungeon, you earn 2000 AD. You then queue for a T3 Random dungeon, you earn the balance of 3000 AD, for a max of 5000 AD total per day.
Additionally impose the following loot rules and bonuses*
Private queues:
1. All drops Bound to Account. No longer a farming choice for end game, but a great tool to teach players to run the content and earn decent rewards for yourself, or try off the wall runs.
2. Add a one a day bonus of 3x Epic Stronghold vouchers. Add a repeatable bonus of 1x Rare Stronghold voucher per run. Encourages guilds and Alliances to continue to run Private content.
Deliberate Queues:
1. Add a chance for a Mark of Potency, Greater Mark of Potency, or Superior Mark of Potency (all unbound) to drop in the chests of the T2 dungeons (the ones that do not have a second chest to open).
2. Bind Status of rewards remain unchanged.
Random Queues:
1. Once per day free campaign chest open. Eliminates the issue of possibly not having the correct key for the dungeon, gives the chance for double drops which increases the value of running the dungeon by a lot.
2. Add a chance for a Greater Mark of Potency, or Superior Mark of Potency (all unbound) to drop in the chests of the T2 dungeons (the ones that do not have a second chest to open).
3. Add once a day 10 Dungeon Shard drop. Makes up for not queuing for the specific dungeon your guild needs you to run and eliminates friction in guilds.
Bonus for Seals can remain as is, but you need to add Voninblod to the Seal merchant, currently you cannot earn armor with seals if you do cannot go to Bryn Shander, which is a huge block in newbie/alt progression. I cannot stress this enough, this oversight means it is harder to upgrade for new players than before Mod 12, not easier.
New Player bonus is a cool idea.
Role Bonus - For roles that are needed to balance the random queue out, make the role bonus a free unlock of the Campaign Currency chest per run, and make the bonus for the T2 dungeons that do not have these chests an extra guaranteed, unbound drop from the boss.
Hero's Accord - This needs to be fixed so that new dungeons do not get added until the module after they are released (I.E. the new dungeon for Mod 13 wouldn't be added to the queue until 13B), or this will be a massive failure. If I suddenly cannot get the AD from this queue for 3-6 weeks for whatever reason, this is a waste of developer time. Alternatively remove the unlock requirements from the dungeons in campaigns and instead add a quest at the appropriate point in the campaign to complete the dungeon. These unlocks only serve to split the community, the only wall off on new content should be the new Item Level requirement.
Leaver penalty is unfortunately unavoidable. Please modify so that if a player does not enter the blue circle for a door (Boss fight, etc) for a reasonable amount of time (5 minutes? 10 minutes? I'd rather it be 3 or less but since the spawns sometimes start you at the beginning it would be better to err on the long side here) cumulative (I.E. you can't step in it, and then reset it when you step out) while the remaining 4 players are waiting for that player, then that player gets kicked and incurs the leaver penalty. This isn't a perfect solution, but it's a step in the right direction to deal with trolls. It might need to be 3 players, I have encountered dungeon runs in recent times where we could not progress due to two players refusing to stand in the blue.
And finally, so we are all on the same page on Dungeon tiers and Skirmishes, etc.
Skirmishes - Master of the Hunt, Dread Legion, Illusionists Gambit, Prophecy of Madness***, Throne of the Dwarven Gods***, Shores of Teurn***, Kessels Retreat***, and any applicable Call to Arms / Leveling Skirmish***.
T1 Dungeons - Dungeons requiring 7500 IL, Lair of Lostmauth**, Valindra's Tower**, Malabog's Castle**.
T2 Dungeons - Dungeons Requiring 8400(is it 8500? Can never remember), Master Temple of the Spider, Master Cragmire Crypts, Master Grey Wolf Den, Castle Never**.
T3 Dungeons - Dungeons requiring 11,000 IL, Fangbreaker Island**, Master Spellplague Caverns(Can't remember if this has a second chest or not).
** Denotes Campaign Currency chest present.
*** Could we get level scaled versions of these available at endgame? Missed a few on the way through and have no way short of leveling up a new character to ever play them again. Just something to throw in your notes somewhere.
Thanks for taking the time to read the feedback. I like the direction you want to go with the upcoming changes.
Wanted to add that this is a future proof system. When new tiers of Dungeons come, drop all the dungeons down by 1 tier, creating a bigger T1 dungeon pool and keeping the rewards tables largely unchanged.
Although as a silly side benefit perhaps it will teach people that 2DC isn't necessary even for FBI. Especially if we start seeing more "dps" classes filling support roles (SW, CW, and HR whee).
I just did FBI a week ago with a barely there entry op.. sure we had some slightly more deaths then would be optimal and I had to drop to healing .. and it took like 45 mins or something.. but who cares.
not everyone just makes every group into 2 dcs groups.. its just optimal.. because they made it optimal.
But even so.. I promise you there are thousands of runs a day without 2 dcs..
because.. again implementation.
no one should have to do all the campaigns or most of them, just to enter some t1s..
It has some good points.. but its so hindered at the current formation of implementation, that is terrible.
There is simply no point that the devs and the community's time are being wasted on this. This change is unneeded as proven by all the feedback here. The CURRENT queues are working fine, additional rewards for random queue are always welcomed AS AN OPTION but not a mandatory curse.
If implementing the random queue function is really such a priority, a queue all button for each category can be added instead of a total new bogus of mess. Please, this is proving to be something quite insulting to the players that actually play your game.
Join Now! - Infernal Paragons , The Infernal Alliance
Too bad they made a decision to force us into 100% the same more or less..
There are thousands of runs, at all i levels.. I dont even look at I levels when Im just farming AD.. some dude wants to run VT, I just jump with it.. i dont care if they have green everything on.. I just go do a run.
Sure the very highest content, you maybe look at a more optimal pathing.. but not all of us do all runs with 2 dcs/1op/1gf and 1 dps.. thats just optimal.. but plenty people run with much different varying degrees of everything.
In my alliance if you ask for someone , you take them , its as simple as that..
again stop trying to force a nanny state on us, give us incentives to run queue instead.
This should be an option for bonus extra ad on top of your daily bonus ad rewards only.
No one seems to be mentioning that dungeon ilvls minimum requirements are way to low for the recent content.
If you want a true representation of what ilvls are required for content, you devs need to be in game and monitoring lfg/private channels..
For example tong is 14k+ and even at 14k some groups are hit or miss. Fbi would have severe difficulty at 12k without dcs. Msva was another did not finish unless 14k+
Random queues would need drastically higher minimum ilvls to guarantee completion, (which negates the helping the newbie idea).
Due to the fluid nature of certain builds for certain classes, You need to allow players to queue up for certain roles rather than class.. Tank, heal, support (buff/debuff), dps. Got a buff/dps gf queue up as support. Got a templock queue up as heal. Pure buff dc queue as support only. This would allow people who want to queue quickly to queue as tank or heal over dps or support. Have the role clearly defined at start of dungeon so people know what their role is (no sneaking in as tank trs for example).
Again want to highlight you are trying to fix a symptom rather than the cause... If you had spent all the development hours on a) bug fixing b) class balance and c) dungeon rewards/time rate - you probably wouldn't have to come up with this rubbish.
Hint:- Devs need to ask themselves the following questions-
Why are the queues not popping?
Why is there a lack of healers and tanks?
Why is the current group meta 2 x DCs?, 2 Tanks (1OP/1GF), 1 DPS?
What is this power sharing everyone is talking about?
Why are bondings so much more powerful than other enchants?
Are all of the above related????
Under the random queue tab/listing you will see 4 different random queues..
Random: Skirmish
Random: Dungeon
Random: Epic Dungeon
Random: Trial
is the above correct?
Now, I have to agree with one chain of thought.
I have several alt characters that have NOT done the following:
* not done IWD
* not done SKT
* not done Underdark quest chain
* not done Maze Engine
* not done River district
* not done Chult
* not completed Tyranny of Dragons campaign to where Shores of Tuern is unlocked
* not completed all areas when leveling, as I overleveled some zones when leveling
Any one or combination of the above will keep said characters out of various random queues for Skirmish/Dungeon/Epic Dungeon/Trials.
I guess what I am really asking is do I need to unlock all the content to have access to any of the content for the purposes of earning AD?
Some examples..
* unlock Shores of Tuern to have access to the random skirmish qeueue?
* complete the Underdark campaign to to have access to the epic Trial queue?
* complete the River District or first part of Storm King Thunder to have access to the random Epic dungeon queue?
If it requires unlocking all content to have access to the random queues and the AD rewards therein is indeed the case... bad idea.. bad form.
I can't imagine myself grinding through Underdark campaign/SKT/River district on the 4-5 alts I play. Imagine now requiring a new player to grind trhough every campaign to the point of unlocking FBI/MSP.. just to get access to random dungeon queue for bonus AD rewards .. like LOL or Valindra or Malabog castle queue..
That elicits an UGH... and another bad form chastisement.
this is why I dont care about thier anti botting strategies..
because usually its a nuke everything.. and see what sticks philosophy.
Its thier job to protect thier wallet.. not mine, I only care when it impacts me personally (by making the game less fun)
But I think I've been pretty clear on how much I think this hurts players far more than helps them.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
All I am seeing is we are now being TOLD what content to play or else pay real money to get what you need in game because there will be no revenue stream unless you do as you are told!
Mod 6 took out a huge amount of content and left us with a broken game for over 2 months. Yes you listened to the players and fixed the game making it playable again, but here we are a year later without our content still and NOW you are telling us what content to play to succeed.
I have spent 4 years defending you and your decisions as I have seen the benefit to the game of most of them, but this one is totally wrong and totally a slap in the face of the people that brought you to the dance. The people that helped make Neverwinter a top 10 FREE TO PLAY game for the last 4 years.
One streamer had just offered a challenge to others to build a new player from scratch and prove that the game truly is free to play by building slowly, over time and getting to the top tiers of the game again. You have just eliminated any chance of this succeeding, and proving your FREE TO PLAY label is more than just words. It now should be FREE TO PLAY AS LONG AS YOU DO EXACTLY LIKE WE TELL YOU OR ELSE OPEN YOUR WALLET PLEASE.
I am severely disappointed in this direction and the exclusion and elitism it will create and promote. I am hoping that cooler heads prevail and discussions are heard and taken seriously. I do not want to live through another Mod 6 RAGE QUIT flood . Please reconsider and talk to your players about this and make the right decision.
Still your supporter but becoming very hard to justify it right now. Please help me become an unquestioned supporter again.
This is a bad decision and needs to be stopped dead and discussed more with the players before changes of this drastic a nature are made.
As previously stated, "Random Queue's" would be a great ADDITION, but sure as HAMSTER not a replacement...
We want to choose what Dungeon we run, and still get RAD & loot, the loot part seem to have been forgotten lately?
I feel like this is a blow to guilds. Many of my guildmates are people that almost never run pug groups. They have had too many bad experiences with players being rude and abusive and joined a guild to escape that. They are here to enjoy themselves not to be forced to run with people that make their experience unpleasant.
I'm sorry new players and unguilded people are having trouble finding groups to run with but these changes aren't going to do anything to keep people from abusing other players when they cant complete their dungeon AND no one can quit without a penalty. We shouldn't have to choose between having fun and progressing. By putting AD behind the random queue, that's what we are faced with. (yes, i know we can still run the random queue with friends, but as people have already pointed out, that comes with its own complications and barriers)
So what if we want to run Temple of the Spider 1 or 100 times in a day if that's the way we choose to spend our time? Especially since I run with guild/alliance only groups and, therefore, would not be benefiting random people anyway. We are capable of making our own random queues. We do lots of different dungeons to mix things up when we get bored. We dont need someone else checking the boxes for us. There are certain dungeons we stay away from because very few of our people are well geared enough, and those that are, find it a time-consuming pain and just not fun. (I'm looking at you MSP).
They act like people were being forced to run ETOS before, and thats why they quit. The irony now is they really are forcing people to run ETOS.
People have been crying for MORE choices...not someone making their choices from a list of the same overplayed content.
While you are "Observing" us like rats in a maze when this goes live, please hop "in game" and come experience some of the vitriol. I already know how I will replace my AD, it won't be by running your random queue. I most definitely will not be unlocking the one or two campaigns that are not entirely complete on one or two of my 8 primary characters. I would have considered purchasing the SKT campaign buy out on my DC before this. I don't think the company deserves to be rewarded for bad decisions though so I'll just keep my cash.
I've been here since mod 1 and have seen many bad choices, but I have stuck around because I like the combat and friendships. With each new Lead Dev I hope that the game will turn around - nope, still not happening. This proposal coupled with the bonding announcement has me genuinely worried that there will be another mass exodus. The chat windows have been toxic. Someone else nailed it on this thread, it's like terrible decision week at Cryptic. Your rewards and content are completely borked compared to what this game used to be, fix those and maybe people will want to queue up for them... and I'm sorry but your communication director; or whomever you have giving you tips on how to interact here, needs to find a new vocation. Avoiding a direct answer to straight forward questions will always elicit suspicion and distrust, and in the face of what you are proposing, sometimes rage and anger. Yes I'm angry. Because I want the game to survive. This change to rewards for playing will not help that. I don't think it's the worst decision I've seen Cryptic make since I started playing, but it's probably top 2.
But one other thing: It's an extra-bad idea to roll this out at the same time as the bonding stone nerf. I'm not so gloom-and-doom about the nerf, but it WILL change things, and you can pretty much throw out all of your telemetry about how players run dungeons. I think it would be a good idea to let the bonding changes settle out and then re-evaluate the states of the dungeons.
Also the requirement stuff is insane. I can't say HOW MUCH this negatively impacts alts. The need to unlock FBI and mSP just to randomly enter Malabog just to get bonus AD is the opposite of creating incentives for people to play.
Why would they be shown with a before-and-after comparison concluding "and look how much more you get!" if it was added to existing bonuses? Look at the totals we're told are available to earn. It's NOT proposed as an addition. Don't be holding onto that hope.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
The requirement thing should be based on item level not on "all dungeons unlocked/all epic dungeons unlocked/all skirmishes unlocked/etc". If you have 7,700 item level then you can queue for random stuff including Valindra, Malabog, Lair of Lostmauth and whatever else. If you have 8,4k then you can random queue for eTOS, eCC, eGWD, Castle Never, etc. And so on.
Simple enough question;
Stronghold cleric requires that I run eCC for coffer seals.
Will I still get AD for running it?
Thanks
BlackMagi
Not unless you happen to come across it in your Random Queue: Epic Dungeons.
Seriously, this seems like they decided to add RNG to our Time.
Wait, WT.
I don't really care at this point, what's the point of pugging a possible eToS with a premade and you have to build the party for MSP in case it pops.
I'll just forget the bonus AD, and just concentrate on salvage in the dungeons I choose to pug with randoms or friends. If I really need the AD, I'll go LFG for eToS Multi runs in zergs for sub 10 minute runs, turn seals in for salvage, give salvage to ALTS when shared bank is full, rinse and repeat.
Run my daily 3xSH HE's on 2 characters and maybe one of those a large HE for the extra Power Shard. Both my mains run the Shard quest from the builder. Hand in SH Cleric Quests for shards, save all shards and influence for 2xGM events and buy MW profession stuff or maps for 2xProfessions. I do this on two characters as much as possible, depends how many requests I get from friends to run FBI/MSP etc or help friends/guildies or just run with them for fun.
Then run campaign dailies to make keys, When, say eLoL for example, is the next SH Cleric quest, I run eLoL, use Epic/Free Epic Key and the campaign key for extra loot/RP.
So no change really except when you claim I'll be getting an extra amazing 2k AD a day extra I'll be getting no bonus AD at all but this is how I play. If you find it acceptable that those who do not want to run dungeons this way should not get any bonus AD then I have to conclude your claim that my earning more AD is important to you is in actual fact false.
Others have said they will pug, with randoms or premades, if they get MSP or FBI, take the leaver penalty, go do dailies.
You might not like how I play, my time is currency, if you demand too much from me I'll invest my interests where my currencies are more valued.
I don't understand why you would use a stick to force players to change their playstyle when a carrot would have them chase it.
So you CAN queue with 5 people?
Then I don't see what's the big problem.
Its funny that doomsayers are so loud that you can't see the essential of things...
I can go with my friend to random dungeons for more reward. Even if its fbi.
Lots of people in our guild Never makes a party. Only wants to be carried.
This random queue is good for them too!