@cthon Oki so, I honestly doubt we'll be able to just outright get them from anywhere at the start, and even if we can, the drop rates will be lower than DR SMOP chances. Assuming you just buy everything needed to refine every enchant (aside from RP and pres wards for R12-13), that's still easily over 25 MILLION AD. To not get even close to previous power levels.
So no one told you? Even WITH that investment, in both yourself AND the companion, you lose over 5k stats. After literally 25m+ AD. My comp (which is not even BiS atm) has about 11k OFFENSIVE stats (can't remember what i got in defensive). Unless new enchants which have about 300 more stats per enchant can make up for that (and it's an even larger gap since it's not BiS), this is not good. Even a BiS M12.5 comp+player won't be able to scratch the M12 and before companions alone, let alone comp+player stats. The power share issue is related to comps. It affects you, AND it affects your comp. Let's say you get 10k power. Seems reasonable, right? But then, your companion gets power. That's 30k power (because it's multiplied 285%+16% for leg bonus on 1 comp). See where the issue rises? With power share on comps. That one guy already did the test and even with this massive nerf to bondings, he got a consistent 228k power. As you can see, this nerf does nothing but HAMSTER people off. Now run the same content with a templock, CW debuff and GF + 2x DPS. Just so there's no power share possible at all, for comps at least. You won't reach 1/3 of that 228k. The issue is the interaction between DCs and comps, not bondings and their owners. They're literally "fixing" an "issue" that doesn't exist.
About refinement... you're absolutely right. Going from lesser bonding to R13 is cheaper than going from lesser to R12 atm. But the thing is, most of us have high-tier bondings, and don't get any discounts and price reductions whatsoever from the new mod. Gaining 300 stats per enchant isn't enough to make up for an 11k stat loss (11k = 6k power 3.5k crit 1.5k arp). That's 36 enchants from R12 to R14 that have to be upgraded. If we factor in 1.95x stats from comp, it's ideally 30 if you have 6x offensive slots on comp, I don't tho.
This is just a terrible, terrible idea. The bonding nerf is way too much. Remember that we have to re-allocate a LOT of our stats, buy new artifacts and refine 'em in the new system, which takes 4x more AD now that you can't get bonuses like same artifact type etc, no 2x RP... so it's just stat loss after stat loss after stat loss. All of this... because they can't change a 1 to a zero. Power_Share_affect_companions=0. That's it.
Also, yeah, random queue. You get into a group of 12k players, they have everything unlocked so they can actually make some AD, and then you get popped into MSP. You're screwed, you know that? Because no way are you getting past Stone Eye with nerfed bondings and everything.
someone did the math, you actually earn less total than the current 2dung+2skirm. About 2k less iirc.
Anyways, this makes the game stupidly harsh on new players. They just don't get rewarded for playing the game anymore. Be top tier immediately or quit the game.
it's not you que group. its all the dungeons in the que. inorder to get your daily ad you need to have skt unlocked, you need tohave msp unlocked you need to have tong unlocked. if you don't you do not qualify. and if you get one of those three and you do have it unlocked when the inevitable happens and you cannot complete you get a 30 minute penalty and no ad
You see, the issue wouldn't be as big if we didn't lose so many stats and literally UPGRADING wouldn't make us even close to what we could achieve. After that R12 to R14 investment which is indeed a multi-million investment, we'd still be behind by 100% stats. That is HAMSTER.
I hope that mods understand that we're doing this out of love for them. We don't want their game to die, as we've had fun with it. But if it continues this way, I'm almost 100% certain it will die in 9 months, if not earlier. It's just too many people affected, and this will just pull a chain reaction of people quitting. The people who are gonna stay are the ones that will never need to pay for anything else and the ones who just joined the game and are looking for an experience that will get boring because there's no people to talk to.
@thefiresidecat Even worse. But bearable if we keep the bondings as they are in M12. M12.5 is just bad. No one will able to finish FBI or MSP and especially TNG with those groups.
Anyways, I've had a long day at work, I'm tired - good night. @nitocris83 @"noworries#8859" please make my nights seem lighter. Undo this for the love of god, or whatever you believe in.
That's some interesting info, and I want to do some crunching of my own. Thanks for presenting that in a reasonable format, and like a reasonable individual. And thanks for helping me to understand where some of the disgruntlement comes from. Some things are making a little more sense now. I'd buy you a beer if I could
However, still some assumptions made that we're starting tabula rasa, with no extant RP materials. Current items will transition over. Yeah, it won't be an overnight process, unless you want to throw AD at it in sums that most of us don't have. Also, remember - RP point conversions on things are at max levels, we can get crit on conversions to RP points, RP points are agnostic to what we refine in so we don't lose RP points refining points from a Thaum stone into an Arti belt, and other items - but yeah, I agree (somewhat) with some of your points - we can be (are?) looking at (potential?) massive reworks to our toons.
Artifact conversion is something I hadn't thought about. Real good point there. The only thing I have to go off of is this info from @noworries#8859 posted earlier:
"Nothing is fed into anything else in the new system, it is all broken down into RP.
Artifact cost to upgrade was cut down to half the total of before. However, the standard RP value wasn't reduced in that way. That sets it up to be essentially a 2x gain from artifact RP. Artifacts don't breakdown into 5x because in many levels that would have been worth more than the RP put into the item and we didn't want a situation where Artifacts were used as a method of RP farming.
Given that all RP is shared, costs are reduced, gemstones can crit when turning into RP, gemstones now double up with the double gems events, and accumulating RP is a bit easier in this new setup, and artifacts have their progression cut in half, artifact leveling shouldn't be particularly worse to level in the new system. But with all new system changes we will be keeping an eye on things as it goes forward. "
Honestly, I'm not *truly* a fan of the overall application of the bonding change, but I'm trying to see things from a glass half full point of view, instead of "not only is my glass empty, but there's a hole in it, and I just discovered what I did drink was syphilitic Troll pee.."
Bondings have been OP, and have been for a while. Unfortunately, we've gotten used to that OP factor, and now we're going to struggle to get ourselves back to our current metas. And, too, it's not been implemented yet, and could be further tuned back up, or sidegraded. All depends on what happens once it hits test, and we can actually stop theorycrafting, panicking, and (threatening to) ragequit, and develop things from empirical, rather than less than anecdotal, info.
You've given me some topics to think about, and some points to mull over. Kudos I'm off to spend some time with the family on our long weekend, I'll try and check in periodically.
I was one those that have raged when the keys changes have being talked here, and now i admit, i liked the changes after some time (I even made a post to say that i was sorry).
I want to see those changes on preview first to see what happens, i just hope that the new RP currency recieve a place in shared bank, like gold and trade bars, becaus will be a pain to have to send RP all the time to alts after this change.
I mean the change is nice but i not always know where i will put my RP, some times i just hoard till i can decide, and doing it as a currency would be much better...
I see that some good things can come from this, but i see that a lot of rage and quitting can come too (our alliance felt that last time), i really hope this work for the better, but so far it looks like a money grab like cut theyr bondings power and give them more level to $Refine$ all theyr runes and enchants...
btw you should number the enchant level next time, i cant imagine what rank 15 will call...
I just hope that the new RP currency recieve a place in shared bank, like gold and trade bars, because will be a pain to have to send RP all the time to alts after this change.
silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
Not me, I still think the key changes were useless.. they add some ok items but barely any of those are usable anymore (just the power sharing ones).
All it did was make a mess out of msva .. that is all it accomplished, I cant really think of any other positives, besides them learning we thought thier rewards system was a pita.. so at least we got some rewards into dungeons (even though btw.. most of the rewards are useless, because only things that holds value are items that increase dps basically) so like 90% of comps are usless and like 90% of mounts are usless.
They have so many.. its funny how many they have , when in start reality almost all of everything they have made has always been more or less usless.
I cant frankly think of many positives.. you get some extra loot , but that loot shouldve been in the tool tables anyway.
If you wanted to stroll into fangbreaker with profane runes x3 with an ioun stone, nothing was stopping you. if you wanted devs to buff them so you could complete end game content with the bare minimum DPS, then ask for one without an unnecessary nerf to something people invest time and money into. Nothing at all is fair about that. It screams selfishness because there is a want from a small group of people to be at rank 12 bonding efficiency without putting in any of the work to get the bonding's themselves like the majority group has.
Btw, Thank you for commenting on this point. Since we ALL know that Cryptic relies on money (rightfully so), I would ask that the Devs remember who is feeding the cash cow here.
Many of us are ticked off that we have put endless hours, made many suggestions and continued to fill the till so those that those who choose to play free can. It is ironic that those of us who spend not only money but invest and log tons of hours on your game to support it are the ones who get hit with the nerfs because the "I don't haves" and the I wont spends" are unhappy they don't have what we have.
That, Cryptic/Developers is the WRONG reason to nerf Bonding's. As others have stated, bring augments/runestones up or make companions immune to buffs.
May I also add, that bonding companions 100% uptime is only when they are alive. (100% of dead is zero). So when my companion con artist dies so do the buffs. That's why we have Lira's Bell which has a 2 min cooldown on it, is out there. It rez's your companion. Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but that's my understanding. Where as an Augment never loses uptime and always gets 100%.
> @zacoria1405 said: > Not sure if the devs really take any notice of these posts but I thought I'd inform them of what has happened since yesterdays announcement in our alliance. I'm a guild leader of a gh20 and we have another 8 gh20's in our alliance along with 4 other guilds in the high teens. > All the leaders are saying the same thing, their guilds seem like ghost towns now with hardly anyone online at all since yesterdays announcement. > Players are completely sick of the constant nerfs by the developers and no longer wish to endlessly grind to try to improve their characters knowing full well that the devs will probably heavily nerf them again when they feel like it. > Having 9 gh20's in the alliance means we run a lot of end game content which will not become more difficult, just take a lot more time to complete with these bonding nerfs. > There isn't a lot of content that caters for end game players and increasing the duration of runs really isnt sitting well with a lot of top players. > This announcement by the developers yesterday is a monumental mistake and they really should reconsider their position at the moment because from what I'm hearing many players arent even going to download mod 12 and are already investing in new games to replace Neverwinter. I foresee a massive exodus from this game coming soon like none before and the developers really must understand that you just cannot treat your player base like this repeatedly and that there are many other great games out at the moment who's developers dont treat their paying players like dirt. > Cryptic really need to rethink their strategy right now or I think the result will be that they have a completely dead game on their hands that nobody will recommend of give a good rating to. > I suggest an emergency board meeting or something to try and sort this mess out as soon as possible because Neverwinter is truly finished otherwise.
well said this is just how i feel and so does 90% of our alliance
> @gabrieldourden said: > Honestly before touching bondings I would remove double-dipping into power sharing. > At that point we could test how different parties perform in dungeons, especially FBI-MSP-TONG and provide feedback about general performance and impact on OP and DC effectiveness. > My guess is that at that point the power level of current bondings would probably feel more reasonable and less adjustments would be needed (thus angering less people). It will also help in reducing the requests for DC/OP in game and bringing them more in line with real population.
got it in one this would fix everything in one easy step but would this make cryptic a ton of cash by forcing us upgrade? no it wouldn't so they will not do it cryptic ain't bothered about bondings being too strong they just want our cash and to drop to this level to get it just shows what sort of company cryptic are or should we start calling them craptic? because this name seems to fit them better at this moment in time
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tripsofthrymrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,624Community Moderator
If THIS happens anyone who is left in game will leave.... What about the larger percentage giving feedback saying not to make this change? If the goal is to kill off Neverwinter then they have set it on the right course to do just that.
People have been predicting the end of Neverwinter after decisions they didn't like since it launched.
The state bondings are in almost completely negates two other companion configurations that the game foresees. That removes dimension from the game, making it simpler. I understand that some like simple. Copy the one-true-meta and kill monsters. There's nothing really wrong with that. My opinion is that the game benefits from diversity, where there are multiple ways to build a character that can all be good depending on your play style.
Dailies originally required thought and timing to maximize their benefit. Huge increases in player power lead to the dailies becoming a more-or-less spammable feature for many classes and builds (my DC gets 100% uptime with Hallowed Ground under common conditions). That favors the simple, press-the-buttons play style (again, nothing wrong with that) but takes away the need to plan when to use your daily that we saw in the early days of Neverwinter (my preferred play style).
Changes don't kill games. Lack of change, in the face of a system whose inherent problems are getting worse with time, can kill a game. The system designers are really smart and good at what they do. They have a plan to get the game to a better place, but they can't implement that plan in one massive go. If you don't believe me, go back and watch some of the recent livestreams and look at some of the recent interactions in the preview forum.
If we collectively refuse to have our toys, not taken away, but reeled in, we put a constraint on the designers that they have to work around. We'll end up with a less-improved experience. I have R12 bondings. They let me run content really fast. I'm completely willing for them to be nerfed because I think it will lead to a richer game, and I trust the designers to balance the game experience around changes to player power.
Give the designers a little credit that they actually do understand how to design a game and give them a little latitude to make a series of changes over a few modules. I'm confident we'll end up with a better game if we give them that freedom.
Give the designers a little credit that they actually do understand how to design a game and give them a little latitude to make a series of changes over a few modules. I'm confident we'll end up with a better game if we give them that freedom.
Do they? Then how did bondings get so broken to begin with? Why are they nerfing all our powers AND adding more power at the same time? Instead of profiting off of new content they are nerfing us and then charging us to get back to where we were (edit- not even). This game is full of broken and unintended mechanics. I have very little confidence in these designers.
Here is my admittedly imperfect analogy: Congrats on building your super awesome racecar. We are afraid it is too fast for the track so we are going to cut your horsepower in half. But wait, we will give you the opportunity to pay us money to get some of that lost horsepower back.
I am going to wait and see what the developers do before I quit. But I think the developers will quickly learn that people do not like spending money when the future value of their purchases can be nullified in an instant. So I will not spend a single dollar on a game that has no respect for good will.
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mamalion1234Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,415Arc User
If THIS happens anyone who is left in game will leave.... What about the larger percentage giving feedback saying not to make this change? If the goal is to kill off Neverwinter then they have set it on the right course to do just that.
People have been predicting the end of Neverwinter after decisions they didn't like since it launched.
The state bondings are in almost completely negates two other companion configurations that the game foresees. That removes dimension from the game, making it simpler. I understand that some like simple. Copy the one-true-meta and kill monsters. There's nothing really wrong with that. My opinion is that the game benefits from diversity, where there are multiple ways to build a character that can all be good depending on your play style.
Dailies originally required thought and timing to maximize their benefit. Huge increases in player power lead to the dailies becoming a more-or-less spammable feature for many classes and builds (my DC gets 100% uptime with Hallowed Ground under common conditions). That favors the simple, press-the-buttons play style (again, nothing wrong with that) but takes away the need to plan when to use your daily that we saw in the early days of Neverwinter (my preferred play style).
Changes don't kill games. Lack of change, in the face of a system whose inherent problems are getting worse with time, can kill a game. The system designers are really smart and good at what they do. They have a plan to get the game to a better place, but they can't implement that plan in one massive go. If you don't believe me, go back and watch some of the recent livestreams and look at some of the recent interactions in the preview forum.
If we collectively refuse to have our toys, not taken away, but reeled in, we put a constraint on the designers that they have to work around. We'll end up with a less-improved experience. I have R12 bondings. They let me run content really fast. I'm completely willing for them to be nerfed because I think it will lead to a richer game, and I trust the designers to balance the game experience around changes to player power.
Give the designers a little credit that they actually do understand how to design a game and give them a little latitude to make a series of changes over a few modules. I'm confident we'll end up with a better game if we give them that freedom.
I will ask personal you ( and sorry i gonna repeat a serious problem) what do you think bondings is the problem or that buffed power transfer trhough bonding to the players?
I will ask personal you ( and sorry i gonna repeat a serious problem) what do you think bondings is the problem or that buffed power transfer trhough bonding to the players?
They are both problems.
I think the suggestions here to review buffed power transfer are good (and I can't speak for the devs, but I'm pretty sure they will be taken seriously and considered). Looking at that first seems wise, as it is then easier to balance bondings against other, similar mechanisms.
Bondings (above and beyond buffed power transfer) are problematic in that they effectively nullify the option "augment" and the (never-popular) option "companion with eldritch runestone(s)." It used to be that bondings and augments represented a trade-off. Bondings offered superior-but-unreliable stats, augments offered consistency. Bondings were getting up to 5 stacks with certain fast-attacking companions. The "fix" to that was to make them (effectively) always-on, 3 stacks. That removed the trade-off between bonding and augment. Bonding was always better, period (there are a very, very few exceptions). There was an uproar in the forums at the time stating that we'll be exactly where we are now. Unfortunately, that uproar was ignored at the time.
People that worked hard for something shouldn't have the rug pulled from under their feet. At the same time, it's healthier for the game long-term if there is a diversity of build options, and if people can feel free to explore different options without fearing that they will be useless in group content.
The developers posted their proposed changes in the discussion section, not in the announcement section, to work with players to find a good balance of interests. I'm taking my moderator hat and flinging it far away for the next few sentences so that it's clear I'm speaking as a player. The designers came her to discuss changes to the game instead of just implementing them and pushing them through. They have been met with some very good discussion, but also with a huge amount of disrespect. If we, the players, want the designers to keep coming to the discussion forum instead of just announcing done-deeds, it behooves us to be critical were warranted, but to remain respectful.
Do they? Then how did bondings get so broken to begin with? Why are they nerfing all our powers AND adding more power at the same time?
The game went through a phase that I don't think anybody is happy about. That's when a lot of things became messed up. I have confidence in what I have seen lately. It takes time to right the ship.
santralafaxMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 2,896Arc User
They have to nerf bondings because they can't be even more powerful at rank 14, and we have to have rank 14 enchants because of reasons.
This is why they are nerfing the bondings and I'm sure they are full steam to sell COAL wards, and give you some of your power back....
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demonmongerMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,350Arc User
> @defiantone99 said: > If THIS happens anyone who is left in game will leave.... What about the larger percentage giving feedback saying not to make this change? If the goal is to kill off Neverwinter then they have set it on the right course to do just that. > > People have been predicting the end of Neverwinter after decisions they didn't like since it launched. > > The state bondings are in almost completely negates two other companion configurations that the game foresees. That removes dimension from the game, making it simpler. I understand that some like simple. Copy the one-true-meta and kill monsters. There's nothing really wrong with that. My opinion is that the game benefits from diversity, where there are multiple ways to build a character that can all be good depending on your play style. > > Dailies originally required thought and timing to maximize their benefit. Huge increases in player power lead to the dailies becoming a more-or-less spammable feature for many classes and builds (my DC gets 100% uptime with Hallowed Ground under common conditions). That favors the simple, press-the-buttons play style (again, nothing wrong with that) but takes away the need to plan when to use your daily that we saw in the early days of Neverwinter (my preferred play style). > > Changes don't kill games. Lack of change, in the face of a system whose inherent problems are getting worse with time, can kill a game. The system designers are really smart and good at what they do. They have a plan to get the game to a better place, but they can't implement that plan in one massive go. If you don't believe me, go back and watch some of the recent livestreams and look at some of the recent interactions in the preview forum. > > If we collectively refuse to have our toys, not taken away, but reeled in, we put a constraint on the designers that they have to work around. We'll end up with a less-improved experience. I have R12 bondings. They let me run content really fast. I'm completely willing for them to be nerfed because I think it will lead to a richer game, and I trust the designers to balance the game experience around changes to player power. > > Give the designers a little credit that they actually do understand how to design a game and give them a little latitude to make a series of changes over a few modules. I'm confident we'll end up with a better game if we give them that freedom. > > > You seem to be forgetting that we tested bondings before they came out in this current condition and we were told they were WAI despite protests to the contrary. If they were not balanced, they should have been nerfed THEN, not now after almost all players have invested in them. The game is built around them as they currently are. This is taking away what we earned. Time is money and money is money, all down the drain. Nothing like this has ever happened in this game.
I have been saying since day 1 about bondings... " the sky is falling" now the sky has fallen
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
I hate paying taxes! Why must I pay thousands of dollars in taxes when everything I buy is taxed anyways!
Actually they don't HAVE to even upgrade bondings to 14. Thats is an arbitrary decision, no one asked for it. Upgrade everything else and leave them the same until the rest of the game catches up. They would still make the monies off of every other enchant going to 14. That would work just as well. If your meaning is that its a cynical cash grab, then yes thats clear. ..however its done in one of the worst ways possible.
They have to nerf bondings because they can't be even more powerful at rank 14, and we have to have rank 14 enchants because of reasons.
This is why they are nerfing the bondings and I'm sure they are full steam to sell COAL wards, and give you some of your power back....
that's an easy work around. don't give them a higher percentage than they are at 12. leave that stagnant. add other bonus for going higher rank. any of the third stats from artifacts, companion influence, combat advantage etc, or movement or something like that. reduce threat, add threat. give a choice. make it like a boon. People will still upgrade them. we're all ocd here. lol. just don't add a higher percentage of shared stats.
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rickcase276Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,404Arc User
Well, now that it is up on preview server everyone can see how it is going to be for themselves, and then be able to give better feedback for the changes.
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ghoulz66Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,748Arc User
Take a break from the game for a month to pop in for the x2 RP and all hell rains down on earth.
Heh, busted my balls to gear up several chars just have it be pissed all over? I blew enough wards just making rank 9s and getting bondings for my chars. I am done if I'm forced to do all of that over again. Game already has become mostly grind with so little time to enjoy yourself before a new repetitive grind shows up.
Who cares about the amount of RP required. You still play the game of RNG with your wards.
I honestly could live with the tweaks to bondings, but there's no way in hell I'm buying or grinding my @#$ off for MORE wards and wasting them trying to upgrade enchantments some more. Adding more ranks is the most ridiculous idea ever. It's like you want this game to be impossible for alts. I already grinded for so long until I got bored to death upgrading my chars. I got almost no time to enjoy the fruits of my labor. Old dungeons are still gone. All you get are more repetitive campaigns. Effort invalidated and pissed all over. I think I had enough abuse. What's not stopping the next investment from facing the same fate...? It's already happened more than once.
Well ... i'm not personnaly against changing it, but a 50% uptime is not viable, i would prefer to have a 100% uptime but for a total of 95% of stats added total with 3 maxed, it'll be at same as augment and still proc insigna bonus ... and allow for player that calculate theirs stats to the max to still have a reliable stats base ...
With 50% up time i'll let only stats that i don't NEED on the companion and try to get what can help ... So my GF will need to change everything AGAIN ... Need to up my defense on the char and power on the companion ... Well ... It's late now, so i'll go preview tomorrow and see by myself what is done but ... if i can't do an easy calculation of stats with companion i'll probably put the game on stasis ... I already don't play much anymore now (still waiting for more guildmates to play T9G to start to farm it) ...
Anyway it's the 1rst anouncement, they WILL probably change how it work, but i hope it'll be a 100% uptime and even 30% stats per bonding (90% with 3 bondings) i'll be ok (i'll lose a LOTS of stats but at least it'll be possible to change enchantments/ equipment and other and compensate ...)
So is it true that they will be changing the way we can earn AD. Not only do we have to pug ,but we also have to run the Dungeon ect. they decide for us to do. While I enjoy a random group I very much want it to be on something I decide for myself to do. If this is so then. My momma don't like you . And she likes everyone.
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rickcase276Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,404Arc User
You do not have to pug, you can still get a 5 person group and go random, you just have to keep it a public queue, not a private one.
You do not have to pug, you can still get a 5 person group and go random, you just have to keep it a public queue, not a private one.
Yay.. lets get together to do content that the game decides for us, even though each member may have dungeons they dont want to do. ..and when the game decides to put you in a 2 hour dungeon like msp instead of 1 30 minute one that you may have time for, you get hit with a leaver penalty.
It was originally presented as a good bonus to compensate for unreliable awards. Do at least 2 dungeons and skirmishes and you'll have reliable income, even if you don't hit the jackpot! ..Now we get to choose between rando for income or relying on the notoriously unreliable for our reward. Nice! /s
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tripsofthrymrMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,624Community Moderator
You seem to be forgetting that we tested bondings before they came out in this current condition and we were told they were WAI despite protests to the contrary. If they were not balanced, they should have been nerfed THEN, not now after almost all players have invested in them.
I totally agree. In fact, I posted something very similar a little earlier.
This is taking away what we earned. Time is money and money is money, all down the drain. Nothing like this has ever happened in this game.
Yes it did. Lostmauth. It wasn't as expensive, but it was the same situation. It was ridiculously overpowered compared to the other options. They waited far too long to nerf it, too. In that case, they offered an exchange store. If they make a significant enough change so that the meta shifts from "always bonding" to "it depends," an exchange store would be a good idea in this case, too.
Comments
Oki so, I honestly doubt we'll be able to just outright get them from anywhere at the start, and even if we can, the drop rates will be lower than DR SMOP chances. Assuming you just buy everything needed to refine every enchant (aside from RP and pres wards for R12-13), that's still easily over 25 MILLION AD. To not get even close to previous power levels.
So no one told you? Even WITH that investment, in both yourself AND the companion, you lose over 5k stats. After literally 25m+ AD. My comp (which is not even BiS atm) has about 11k OFFENSIVE stats (can't remember what i got in defensive). Unless new enchants which have about 300 more stats per enchant can make up for that (and it's an even larger gap since it's not BiS), this is not good. Even a BiS M12.5 comp+player won't be able to scratch the M12 and before companions alone, let alone comp+player stats.
The power share issue is related to comps. It affects you, AND it affects your comp. Let's say you get 10k power. Seems reasonable, right? But then, your companion gets power. That's 30k power (because it's multiplied 285%+16% for leg bonus on 1 comp). See where the issue rises? With power share on comps. That one guy already did the test and even with this massive nerf to bondings, he got a consistent 228k power. As you can see, this nerf does nothing but HAMSTER people off. Now run the same content with a templock, CW debuff and GF + 2x DPS. Just so there's no power share possible at all, for comps at least. You won't reach 1/3 of that 228k. The issue is the interaction between DCs and comps, not bondings and their owners. They're literally "fixing" an "issue" that doesn't exist.
About refinement... you're absolutely right. Going from lesser bonding to R13 is cheaper than going from lesser to R12 atm. But the thing is, most of us have high-tier bondings, and don't get any discounts and price reductions whatsoever from the new mod.
Gaining 300 stats per enchant isn't enough to make up for an 11k stat loss (11k = 6k power 3.5k crit 1.5k arp). That's 36 enchants from R12 to R14 that have to be upgraded. If we factor in 1.95x stats from comp, it's ideally 30 if you have 6x offensive slots on comp, I don't tho.
This is just a terrible, terrible idea. The bonding nerf is way too much. Remember that we have to re-allocate a LOT of our stats, buy new artifacts and refine 'em in the new system, which takes 4x more AD now that you can't get bonuses like same artifact type etc, no 2x RP... so it's just stat loss after stat loss after stat loss. All of this... because they can't change a 1 to a zero. Power_Share_affect_companions=0. That's it.
Also, yeah, random queue. You get into a group of 12k players, they have everything unlocked so they can actually make some AD, and then you get popped into MSP. You're screwed, you know that? Because no way are you getting past Stone Eye with nerfed bondings and everything.
I hope that mods understand that we're doing this out of love for them. We don't want their game to die, as we've had fun with it. But if it continues this way, I'm almost 100% certain it will die in 9 months, if not earlier. It's just too many people affected, and this will just pull a chain reaction of people quitting. The people who are gonna stay are the ones that will never need to pay for anything else and the ones who just joined the game and are looking for an experience that will get boring because there's no people to talk to.
@thefiresidecat
Even worse. But bearable if we keep the bondings as they are in M12. M12.5 is just bad. No one will able to finish FBI or MSP and especially TNG with those groups.
Anyways, I've had a long day at work, I'm tired - good night. @nitocris83 @"noworries#8859" please make my nights seem lighter. Undo this for the love of god, or whatever you believe in.
However, still some assumptions made that we're starting tabula rasa, with no extant RP materials. Current items will transition over. Yeah, it won't be an overnight process, unless you want to throw AD at it in sums that most of us don't have. Also, remember - RP point conversions on things are at max levels, we can get crit on conversions to RP points, RP points are agnostic to what we refine in so we don't lose RP points refining points from a Thaum stone into an Arti belt, and other items - but yeah, I agree (somewhat) with some of your points - we can be (are?) looking at (potential?) massive reworks to our toons.
Artifact conversion is something I hadn't thought about. Real good point there. The only thing I have to go off of is this info from @noworries#8859 posted earlier:
"Nothing is fed into anything else in the new system, it is all broken down into RP.
Artifact cost to upgrade was cut down to half the total of before. However, the standard RP value wasn't reduced in that way. That sets it up to be essentially a 2x gain from artifact RP. Artifacts don't breakdown into 5x because in many levels that would have been worth more than the RP put into the item and we didn't want a situation where Artifacts were used as a method of RP farming.
Given that all RP is shared, costs are reduced, gemstones can crit when turning into RP, gemstones now double up with the double gems events, and accumulating RP is a bit easier in this new setup, and artifacts have their progression cut in half, artifact leveling shouldn't be particularly worse to level in the new system. But with all new system changes we will be keeping an eye on things as it goes forward. "
Honestly, I'm not *truly* a fan of the overall application of the bonding change, but I'm trying to see things from a glass half full point of view, instead of "not only is my glass empty, but there's a hole in it, and I just discovered what I did drink was syphilitic Troll pee.."
Bondings have been OP, and have been for a while. Unfortunately, we've gotten used to that OP factor, and now we're going to struggle to get ourselves back to our current metas. And, too, it's not been implemented yet, and could be further tuned back up, or sidegraded. All depends on what happens once it hits test, and we can actually stop theorycrafting, panicking, and (threatening to) ragequit, and develop things from empirical, rather than less than anecdotal, info.
You've given me some topics to think about, and some points to mull over. Kudos
Peace!
Cthon.
I want to see those changes on preview first to see what happens, i just hope that the new RP currency recieve a place in shared bank, like gold and trade bars, becaus will be a pain to have to send RP all the time to alts after this change.
I mean the change is nice but i not always know where i will put my RP, some times i just hoard till i can decide, and doing it as a currency would be much better...
I see that some good things can come from this, but i see that a lot of rage and quitting can come too (our alliance felt that last time), i really hope this work for the better, but so far it looks like a money grab
like cut theyr bondings power and give them more level to $Refine$ all theyr runes and enchants...
btw you should number the enchant level next time, i cant imagine what rank 15 will call...
All it did was make a mess out of msva .. that is all it accomplished, I cant really think of any other positives, besides them learning we thought thier rewards system was a pita.. so at least we got some rewards into dungeons (even though btw.. most of the rewards are useless, because only things that holds value are items that increase dps basically) so like 90% of comps are usless and like 90% of mounts are usless.
They have so many.. its funny how many they have , when in start reality almost all of everything they have made has always been more or less usless.
I cant frankly think of many positives.. you get some extra loot , but that loot shouldve been in the tool tables anyway.
Many of us are ticked off that we have put endless hours, made many suggestions and continued to fill the till so those that those who choose to play free can. It is ironic that those of us who spend not only money but invest and log tons of hours on your game to support it are the ones who get hit with the nerfs because the "I don't haves" and the I wont spends" are unhappy they don't have what we have.
That, Cryptic/Developers is the WRONG reason to nerf Bonding's. As others have stated, bring augments/runestones up or make companions immune to buffs.
May I also add, that bonding companions 100% uptime is only when they are alive. (100% of dead is zero). So when my companion con artist dies so do the buffs. That's why we have Lira's Bell which has a 2 min cooldown on it, is out there. It rez's your companion. Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but that's my understanding.
Where as an Augment never loses uptime and always gets 100%.
> Not sure if the devs really take any notice of these posts but I thought I'd inform them of what has happened since yesterdays announcement in our alliance. I'm a guild leader of a gh20 and we have another 8 gh20's in our alliance along with 4 other guilds in the high teens.
> All the leaders are saying the same thing, their guilds seem like ghost towns now with hardly anyone online at all since yesterdays announcement.
> Players are completely sick of the constant nerfs by the developers and no longer wish to endlessly grind to try to improve their characters knowing full well that the devs will probably heavily nerf them again when they feel like it.
> Having 9 gh20's in the alliance means we run a lot of end game content which will not become more difficult, just take a lot more time to complete with these bonding nerfs.
> There isn't a lot of content that caters for end game players and increasing the duration of runs really isnt sitting well with a lot of top players.
> This announcement by the developers yesterday is a monumental mistake and they really should reconsider their position at the moment because from what I'm hearing many players arent even going to download mod 12 and are already investing in new games to replace Neverwinter. I foresee a massive exodus from this game coming soon like none before and the developers really must understand that you just cannot treat your player base like this repeatedly and that there are many other great games out at the moment who's developers dont treat their paying players like dirt.
> Cryptic really need to rethink their strategy right now or I think the result will be that they have a completely dead game on their hands that nobody will recommend of give a good rating to.
> I suggest an emergency board meeting or something to try and sort this mess out as soon as possible because Neverwinter is truly finished otherwise.
well said this is just how i feel and so does 90% of our alliance
> Honestly before touching bondings I would remove double-dipping into power sharing.
> At that point we could test how different parties perform in dungeons, especially FBI-MSP-TONG and provide feedback about general performance and impact on OP and DC effectiveness.
> My guess is that at that point the power level of current bondings would probably feel more reasonable and less adjustments would be needed (thus angering less people). It will also help in reducing the requests for DC/OP in game and bringing them more in line with real population.
got it in one this would fix everything in one easy step but would this make cryptic a ton of cash by forcing us upgrade? no it wouldn't so they will not do it cryptic ain't bothered about bondings being too strong they just want our cash and to drop to this level to get it just shows what sort of company cryptic are or should we start calling them craptic? because this name seems to fit them better at this moment in time
The state bondings are in almost completely negates two other companion configurations that the game foresees. That removes dimension from the game, making it simpler. I understand that some like simple. Copy the one-true-meta and kill monsters. There's nothing really wrong with that. My opinion is that the game benefits from diversity, where there are multiple ways to build a character that can all be good depending on your play style.
Dailies originally required thought and timing to maximize their benefit. Huge increases in player power lead to the dailies becoming a more-or-less spammable feature for many classes and builds (my DC gets 100% uptime with Hallowed Ground under common conditions). That favors the simple, press-the-buttons play style (again, nothing wrong with that) but takes away the need to plan when to use your daily that we saw in the early days of Neverwinter (my preferred play style).
Changes don't kill games. Lack of change, in the face of a system whose inherent problems are getting worse with time, can kill a game. The system designers are really smart and good at what they do. They have a plan to get the game to a better place, but they can't implement that plan in one massive go. If you don't believe me, go back and watch some of the recent livestreams and look at some of the recent interactions in the preview forum.
If we collectively refuse to have our toys, not taken away, but reeled in, we put a constraint on the designers that they have to work around. We'll end up with a less-improved experience. I have R12 bondings. They let me run content really fast. I'm completely willing for them to be nerfed because I think it will lead to a richer game, and I trust the designers to balance the game experience around changes to player power.
Give the designers a little credit that they actually do understand how to design a game and give them a little latitude to make a series of changes over a few modules. I'm confident we'll end up with a better game if we give them that freedom.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
Here is my admittedly imperfect analogy: Congrats on building your super awesome racecar. We are afraid it is too fast for the track so we are going to cut your horsepower in half. But wait, we will give you the opportunity to pay us money to get some of that lost horsepower back.
I am going to wait and see what the developers do before I quit. But I think the developers will quickly learn that people do not like spending money when the future value of their purchases can be nullified in an instant. So I will not spend a single dollar on a game that has no respect for good will.
I think the suggestions here to review buffed power transfer are good (and I can't speak for the devs, but I'm pretty sure they will be taken seriously and considered). Looking at that first seems wise, as it is then easier to balance bondings against other, similar mechanisms.
Bondings (above and beyond buffed power transfer) are problematic in that they effectively nullify the option "augment" and the (never-popular) option "companion with eldritch runestone(s)." It used to be that bondings and augments represented a trade-off. Bondings offered superior-but-unreliable stats, augments offered consistency. Bondings were getting up to 5 stacks with certain fast-attacking companions. The "fix" to that was to make them (effectively) always-on, 3 stacks. That removed the trade-off between bonding and augment. Bonding was always better, period (there are a very, very few exceptions). There was an uproar in the forums at the time stating that we'll be exactly where we are now. Unfortunately, that uproar was ignored at the time.
People that worked hard for something shouldn't have the rug pulled from under their feet. At the same time, it's healthier for the game long-term if there is a diversity of build options, and if people can feel free to explore different options without fearing that they will be useless in group content.
The developers posted their proposed changes in the discussion section, not in the announcement section, to work with players to find a good balance of interests. I'm taking my moderator hat and flinging it far away for the next few sentences so that it's clear I'm speaking as a player. The designers came her to discuss changes to the game instead of just implementing them and pushing them through. They have been met with some very good discussion, but also with a huge amount of disrespect. If we, the players, want the designers to keep coming to the discussion forum instead of just announcing done-deeds, it behooves us to be critical were warranted, but to remain respectful.
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
This is why they are nerfing the bondings and I'm sure they are full steam to sell COAL wards, and give you some of your power back....
> If THIS happens anyone who is left in game will leave.... What about the larger percentage giving feedback saying not to make this change? If the goal is to kill off Neverwinter then they have set it on the right course to do just that.
>
> People have been predicting the end of Neverwinter after decisions they didn't like since it launched.
>
> The state bondings are in almost completely negates two other companion configurations that the game foresees. That removes dimension from the game, making it simpler. I understand that some like simple. Copy the one-true-meta and kill monsters. There's nothing really wrong with that. My opinion is that the game benefits from diversity, where there are multiple ways to build a character that can all be good depending on your play style.
>
> Dailies originally required thought and timing to maximize their benefit. Huge increases in player power lead to the dailies becoming a more-or-less spammable feature for many classes and builds (my DC gets 100% uptime with Hallowed Ground under common conditions). That favors the simple, press-the-buttons play style (again, nothing wrong with that) but takes away the need to plan when to use your daily that we saw in the early days of Neverwinter (my preferred play style).
>
> Changes don't kill games. Lack of change, in the face of a system whose inherent problems are getting worse with time, can kill a game. The system designers are really smart and good at what they do. They have a plan to get the game to a better place, but they can't implement that plan in one massive go. If you don't believe me, go back and watch some of the recent livestreams and look at some of the recent interactions in the preview forum.
>
> If we collectively refuse to have our toys, not taken away, but reeled in, we put a constraint on the designers that they have to work around. We'll end up with a less-improved experience. I have R12 bondings. They let me run content really fast. I'm completely willing for them to be nerfed because I think it will lead to a richer game, and I trust the designers to balance the game experience around changes to player power.
>
> Give the designers a little credit that they actually do understand how to design a game and give them a little latitude to make a series of changes over a few modules. I'm confident we'll end up with a better game if we give them that freedom.
>
>
> You seem to be forgetting that we tested bondings before they came out in this current condition and we were told they were WAI despite protests to the contrary. If they were not balanced, they should have been nerfed THEN, not now after almost all players have invested in them. The game is built around them as they currently are. This is taking away what we earned. Time is money and money is money, all down the drain. Nothing like this has ever happened in this game.
I have been saying since day 1 about bondings... " the sky is falling" now the sky has fallen
Heh, busted my balls to gear up several chars just have it be pissed all over? I blew enough wards just making rank 9s and getting bondings for my chars. I am done if I'm forced to do all of that over again. Game already has become mostly grind with so little time to enjoy yourself before a new repetitive grind shows up.
Who cares about the amount of RP required. You still play the game of RNG with your wards.
I honestly could live with the tweaks to bondings, but there's no way in hell I'm buying or grinding my @#$ off for MORE wards and wasting them trying to upgrade enchantments some more. Adding more ranks is the most ridiculous idea ever. It's like you want this game to be impossible for alts. I already grinded for so long until I got bored to death upgrading my chars. I got almost no time to enjoy the fruits of my labor. Old dungeons are still gone. All you get are more repetitive campaigns. Effort invalidated and pissed all over. I think I had enough abuse. What's not stopping the next investment from facing the same fate...? It's already happened more than once.
With 50% up time i'll let only stats that i don't NEED on the companion and try to get what can help ...
So my GF will need to change everything AGAIN ... Need to up my defense on the char and power on the companion ... Well ... It's late now, so i'll go preview tomorrow and see by myself what is done but ... if i can't do an easy calculation of stats with companion i'll probably put the game on stasis ... I already don't play much anymore now (still waiting for more guildmates to play T9G to start to farm it) ...
Anyway it's the 1rst anouncement, they WILL probably change how it work, but i hope it'll be a 100% uptime and even 30% stats per bonding (90% with 3 bondings) i'll be ok (i'll lose a LOTS of stats but at least it'll be possible to change enchantments/ equipment and other and compensate ...)
Yay.. lets get together to do content that the game decides for us, even though each member may have dungeons they dont want to do. ..and when the game decides to put you in a 2 hour dungeon like msp instead of 1 30 minute one that you may have time for, you get hit with a leaver penalty.
It was originally presented as a good bonus to compensate for unreliable awards. Do at least 2 dungeons and skirmishes and you'll have reliable income, even if you don't hit the jackpot! ..Now we get to choose between rando for income or relying on the notoriously unreliable for our reward. Nice! /s
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min