The thing is, this fixes nothing. It's like having a car with a ripped tire, and you change its engine. The issue is power share, and you change bondings. Yeah, the power share is lower but it's such a miniscule change to the power share it doesn't matter. People still reach absurd levels of power. Instead, why don't you... nerf power share? It's that bloody simple. If this goes through - I'm out. I just can't for the life of me bother to grind for another 2000 hours and get bloody nowhere. It is just too much, Cryptic. Heck, I can even deal with R14 requirements - a coal ward. But bonding nerf changes nothing besides people's willingness to give you money, ever again. You won't profit from this money-hungering, ironically.
Here's a little marketing tutorial for you: the way to make people give you money is by telling them they can get better than ever, not worse than before anything happened. People like getting promoted. What you just did is like telling someone they're fired, and then telling them that they're not but they're getting paid 50% less. No matter what happens, that person WILL NOT be happy.
> @mamalion1234 said: > > @rayrdan said: > > > @noworries#8859 > > > bondings do not trasfer HP from defense slots, can you fix it since you are already changing them? > > > > That would be stupidly overpowered for pallies. And it's WAI, so no change. > > Ofcourse bondings transfering buffed power is normal compare to this :smile:
Yeah that's a completely different issue. That's related to DCs and pallies affecting comps.
A real thing that just happened, our guild leader stepped down and a bunch of people passed on taking over the guild, myself included. You can't move the goal posts for best in slot out and then simultaneously move the ball back 30 yards. Everyone who knows this change is coming feels they have nothing to work towards getting their player better as it will be taken away shortly, so they're just quitting.
We had the PS4 spotlight, only guild to have one.
There isn't a sad face for me to click so I'll just say, sorry.... guild shakeups hurt.
Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold" Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
Providing a massive nerf to most of current players (please dont make me laugh and call it balance), forcing us to take several steps back, and just be at the same progession level than we were 1 year ago, without access for most of us to the endgame content which have been playing for one year now, forcing us to spend many hours of grinding and more real money for just be able to play -again- the current content...
Dont know how all this will end, but if its just as cruel as I describe above , you will feel the consequences.
you re nerfing bonding just to up to 14 so you can have more money from people buying coa & stuff in shop... because with curant bonding & new r14, will be overpowered... but instead you can make content for that kind of power,new content suck,it nice looking but suck ,no quest line,no story, a few daily but useless as totem limited to a week, got them in 1 day...then it s only agaiiiin 1 dungeon bashing, you should maybe go see some other mmorp to find new quest line instead of take money again eso quest are awsome, ffxiv hunt is really better ,all around the world..here i bash mob for 2h,finaly 1 pop,drop nothing, hurra,second pop nothing hurra(& yes i dont have any in my bag) you give us nothing and want to take us much, i love playing my char, but i feel frustation each time, and i m main SW ,already got nerf (corrected) (i ve hear about removing lifesteal?temptlock garbage?) & when i see trans lightning on my cw, half stuffed, doing more damage, and i m mof, not even dps, it s just ... sw got trans vorpal as lightning suck with her..same king of skill, but on SW tic once, on CW tic each proc,and pinball ball on each mob,jackpot! btw weapon dammage from weapon enchant get all buffed, but weapon dammage from my talents tree still do HAMSTER dammage, or from artefact, so 1 weapon damage not same as another bah i ve put real money in the game hoping for nice content..
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
Well let me boil down the issue.
From a design standpoint the devs believe that bondings offer to much, or have, limited their design approach, but at the same time, most average groups with r12s, will be able to finish msva /fbi and tong with them on. that is ok, from a playberbase perspective, you can draw from several hundred to a thousand players maybe at your time zone to do this content. thats it.. so if there is 4000 players on at one time, you might see 3-400 that can actually run that content.. at the same time those players are spread out, doing dailies, running different things, or just maybe chilling.. already run their stuff for the day..
The super speed runs are not your average players, these are extreme 1%s or up to 4/5% at most of the entire playerbase, that test things, find cracks in certain areas, know the value of full buffing designs and mechanics , while having most of the top gear in the game, while they release fully impressive videos, this isnt readily duplicated by just everyone else.. I think any design around that player-base, is well extreme, so I hope they just discounted it to start with.
while its easy to say.. well anyone could just bring a bunch of debuffs and finish it.. its not always easy.. say out of that 3-400 actual players who "can" run one of those dungeons.. there is 20-30 dcs/ops/gfs on , a full debuff group would be 2 dcs/1op/1gf , while you can sub one dc out for a mof or sw, or swap one of those out for something else.. (with slighly worse returns ) finding a combination of that is a bit harder.
Just frankly most people give up, run 2-3 dps instead.. take longer times to finish said runs (which is fine btw) so they dont see this massive design issue to scale back bondings to the point that the company thinks we should.
Frankly RNG is also involved.. GREAT to make us dial everything way back, take 1 hours to finish a dungeon... IF we could then get a guarantee that 30 runs of said dungeon is enough.. but some of us have run UP to ten thousand runs of some dungeons without getting what we want out of them. But instead its not like that.. you could run hundreds of said dungeons and get HAMSTER out of them.. fun ya?
RNG is a cloister HAMSTER in all of this. That makes said design terrible to start with.
Overall.. what I would do is simple.. rescale your game, remove all debuff builds except out of core utility classes, then only allow certain debuffs to stack instead.
Sadly, this mess started in mod 6.. and its just not bondings that is a issue, its a massive issue with the whole game, unless they want to tackle the entire game and fix it.. doing this piece meal would cause more of a mess then help.
if they did alot of give and take, found out what was best overall for players,, thats one thing.. just making you RE BUY power you have is
Who is foreseeing runestones lvl 20 already? Because you know its a nice number and you know they will nerf lvl 14s down the road trying to pull the same trick again after getting your money
it is right because they, the developers, released new content build around the mechanic. This is an action MMO, 2 hours running a dungeon ain't normal. It is intended because they themselves stated so. When they reworked bondings, they knew that and were aware of the effects. The rework made it so that it would be even easier to use this INTENDED mechanic with an even wider variety of companions. This is the part when you guys start making no sense "When A dc will buff me I get the powershare then it buffs MY companion and I get the powershare twice and buffed at 275% and if I have a Paly it quadruples and a dps gets the power 4 times." SIMPLE unequip your bondings. But when you do that, you complain cause the other players don't follow your steps. Then find others who do, and run with them.
First: You are saying the the devs stated so and intended so please, provide the link or post that they say its intended for a DC power share to give double (actually more) the power through a companion to other players. I know they didn't but if you do please correct me and this will end a lot faster. In case you cant find it you know what that means.
Second when a lot of people state that the bonding (that they have paid) itself is not the problem but the powersharing makes it look like a problem and that's we are where we are now, having it changed and nerfed what does it make more sense to you? To nerf the bondings of all people or to adjust the powershare to be more inline with everything else.
You assume I complain as you assume a lot of things and you know what they say about people that assume.
I had no need for realistic scenarios, numbers are irrelevant, cause I was just explaining the way powershare+bonidngs work. I was not hiding anything.
Yet you mentioned your companion effect which is also irrelevant and not what happens to the other players companions and bondings which is the real issue.
You failed as soon as you compared a dc's powersharing to a sw dark revelry, and asking for all classes to be treated the same. To clarify, dark revelry is a 20% boost to base pow of whoever gets the buff, and it does affect companions. Now cause the sw has a move that benefits the party to some extent, it don't make him a supporter, he just has the option to act like one, however his innate role is that of a dpser. A DC is a support with the option of dipping into dps. Every class already has those options, but they excel at one more than the other. If they all are capable of doing the same to the same extent, then why even bother having so many classes?
Then you better spend sometime and read what the SW Temptation path is all about. Ap share, lifesteal share, damage resist share and power share, healing....lots of shares... Also the boost to power DOESN'T go through the bonding to you. Test it anytime you like. At the end of the day powershare is powershare no matter where it comes from unless you have exclusivity. I'm not asking for more or less, I'm saying treat them the same. As your debuffs as a dc are the same as a cw, different values same effect. I don't ask for different values, just same effect.
No one hides any facts. You are the only one in fear that nothing changes. It is easier for you to ask that everyone gets put at your level, than you putting the effort to get to theirs. Perhaps, because you already tried it, and it sucked. Maybe, its you hiding that fact, wanting others to be made aware of it without exposing yourself.
See at all this point you start assuming again and become personal and trying to insult and insinuate (unsuccessfully at that) when the arguments run out.
I dont "fear" anything but judging from your reaction I think you do. Did we strike a nerve? What I can do or not has nothing to do with anything and same goes for you too. The world isn't measured by your needs or mine and it isn't revolving around us either. So tell me what do I try, not expose about what I do? Because trust me I do what I do very well. But trying to have a decent game that is fair for all, is to much for you I guess. Tell us please since you seem to know so well.
What level is that you think you are that your entire class is based whether you buff a companion or not? What does that say about your skill or talent? How selfish can a person be that would prefer for all the people to have their bondings nerfed instead of adjust one buff. I never even said nerf, I just identified a problem. There are other ways to preserve the buff as is, make it a straight damage buff or make it not shared through companions while making it give more power to players. What are your proposals??? NADA Only failed innuendos.
The best fix to this issue, which frankly I don't see it been one, was to get augments and runestones, buffed to be competitive. But you didn't ask for that cause you thought it would be easier for you the other way around. And the scenario is still the same. Augments will fill in for bondings, they will be sought after along with runestones, prices will go up as high as some companions and bondings where, and you are still in the same position as you were before. Then you will complain about that or find something new to complain about because its easier than putting up with it like others do. Any ease of access would be momentary and short lived, because is a game with a free market mechanism. If it is now better to run with augments, AD prices AND trade value will sky high if the supplier so desires. ARC will then find a way to benefit out of that through the zen store or zen to AD exchange. Nothing was achieved, unless the goal was to HAMSTER people off.
This is what you fail to see.. We are not talking about the bonding. As I said its not an issue, the powershare is, you keep making it an issue and talking about stones and augments. Also no matter how good the augment becomes if it doesn't give the second powershare to the DPS through the DC it will never be as good simply because a DC with the double share will give way more power then the bondings or anything else will ever give.
If you are so right explain this to me. Why does a bonding at best as it is now gives 27k stats more or less but a dc can give 100k+ Which is the real elephant here?
You keep saying I complain blah blah but better reread the post I made. I said I don't think that's right...I asked people to say why do they think they are right with the double buff.
If anything all i see in this post is a hurt person complaining about me stating the obvious and on top trying to become personal and misdirecting the conversation so please stick to the facts.
And this will come as a shocker to you, but its the truth, the nerf was going to happen regardless. It had nothing to do with your and others complains. And I don't hold that against you, but I do, that by keeping up that mentality and turning against the majority of the community, you support this behavior form publishers/developers. It has nothing to do with creating balance in the game, its all about making money, and your dim numbers would actually make a difference on this side of the fight, and not in between acting as cannon fodder.
Even then, who in their right mind would be fine with stuff been taken away from them? It makes no sense unless you hold a grudge against those who have what you don't. Its as silly as asking for everyone's legs to be chopped because you can't make it up a stairwell, and then forcing everyone to take the elevator with you. Ain't that dicky? Yet you going to keep repeating the same HAMSTER without adding anything new or truly relevant.
Again going round and round... I support what behavior exactly? That I ask for a reversal to the bonding stone change and instead asking for adjustment on a buff that makes the bonding stone look broken?
Let me ask you a question CLEARLY (emphasis not shouting)
Do you support the 1. Nerf the % of bonding and perhaps the uptime and keep power sharing for the AC DC as is 2. Let the bondings as it is and adjust the power sharing so the AC is still viable.
If you are to answer, answer this so we all can see clear your intentions as I showed mine then please expand to any venue you like.
To be honest because it seems like a grey area, can he have one of the devs clear this for us please? If it is then all fine and we'll continue game life as is, if not...
If I was a dev right now and saw all the threats I would do as follows.
1) revert all the proposed changes to runestones, went with the refine changes only 2) Fixed the bonding runestones bugs regarding powersharing 3) introduced diminishing returns on all stats. (balanced and tested)
Honestly that way you would fix every single problem you have
1) Bondings people paid and worked for will still be the way to go 2) you get rid of stats and introduce more diversity and specialization. 3) you untie your hands a little when designing new gear and content 4) You make it easier for new players 5) end game players would still have a reason to grind for BiS if they want to
@oria1 The 2nd option is by far better. The issue is in power. You still get way too much power with power share, even after the nerf, and you just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> people off because they have to re-adjust their stats to make their builds viable. Just generally not a good fix.
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
We fully understand how big of a topic this is which is why we wanted to get the details out early to get feedback on all of the changes. And feedback certainly has been given! Although these types of topics can get heated due to the passion players have for this game, it is a good thing to see such involvement and discussion from our player base.
There are valid points being brought up through out this discussion. Reading over all of this feedback, from multiple sources, has allowed us to take a look at different perspectives on the bonding issues. Bonding runestones do need an adjustment and we'd like to allow for other companion and runestone choices to not be so underwhelming compared to a bonding companion.
Many of the points brought forward by you is that a 50% up time changes too many dynamics which will drive many players to feeling that an augment pet is the only correct route to play. That is not our intention and not where we want the game to go.
We are going to switch the up time to being able to be 100% (cooldown and up time will match). This will be with the lowered percentages that we presented and seems like the best way to address many of the concerns while still bringing bonding power more in line with where it should be.
Also, we are going to look into switching the offensive effect of Eldritch Runestones to match the defensive effect, meaning that either slot will grant the stat gain (it does mean the AP functionality of the Eldritch Runestone offensive slot is going away). This allows players who would like to use an augment pet with Eldritch Runestones to have a choice in which augment pet to use.
The concerns on dungeon runs/difficulty in the game with any changes to bonding runestones is not unnoticed and something we have been paying attention to internally throughout all of this. We have been doing internal testing on this and look forward to feedback during preview on this very topic.
Not good, 100% uptime with the 65% with companions like fire archons or kenku archer the effective % of gift during a run will be at least 170%, fixing bondings is fixing a mistake, the price of bondings is getting way way closer to other runestones now so there is no excuse, screw bondings i have them and see them nerfed is a relieve, since others don't agree with me there is one other solution, bring other runestones even more up, eldricht r14 to 33% and other correspondent amounts, i've also been wondering about old players complaining that they are in disavantage, well what if r12 where increased from 700(or correspondent ) to 750, being the other 2 ranks above distributed more evently?
I am currently able to do any content ingame without to much of a problem. My toon can't oneshot everything but doing dailies is not too slow. I enjoy playing my toon where I have invested a lot of time, thought and some money, too. I have been in those mentioned meta-groups which can do anything in a very fast way, but also ran with guildmates which do not meet the requirements of an so called elite-player. Those runs usually are much slower, about triple the times, and limited to t1/t2 and fbi. All of those players are using some ranks of bonding stones so all off them would be affected by this proposed change.
Since the servers are down I have the time to do some basic math. I will not consider any effects like powersharing, but I will expect to see a mayor loss there too. Using those numbers I will explain why I will feel robbed and instantly quit NW if those changes are coming as they are.
As basis for my calculation I will use 3 items with an average of 1000 statpoints and 2 enchantment slots each. Also I will use maxed stones, meaning bondings R12 and pure R12s. And since I can't remember the raw stats on a companion I will asume 1000 there, too.
Currently this toon will gain: (3*1000 + 3*840 + 6*700 +1000)*2.85 (gear + bonding stats + entchantments + companion stats)*bonding multiplier
= 30552 statpoints
Assumed gains after changes assuming the uptime will really be 100% like it is now: (3*1000 + 3*750 + 6*700 +1000)*1.65 (gear + bonding stats + entchantments + companion stats)*bonding multiplier
=17243 statpoints
So without doing anything wrong I will lose at least 13300 statpoints, which equals 19 (nineteen!!!) R12 enchants. Seriously?!
Now going one step further: The difficulty level of the content is NOT supposed to be changed in any way. So I will have to gain those lost statpoints to just be able to experience the same gaming as before!
If i upgrade everything on my companion I will get the following: (3*1000 + 3*1050 + 6*1000 +1000)*1.95 (gear + bonding stats + entchantments + companion stats)*bonding multiplier
=25642 statpoints... still missing roughly 5k points...
...so upgrading personal entchants, R12-R14 gives +300 statpoints:
(30552-25642)/300 = 16.4
So I have to upgrade 17 R12 entchants to R14 to close the gap... oh wait... only got 13 to upgrade.
Assuming I upgrade all my 22 entchants form R12 to R14 and I am neither lucky nor unlike I will need about 33 wards for R13 each (3% chance) and will assume 1 coal ward for R14 (the 1% chance...). This will cost me about 25000 Zen (with 15% discount) to get all the wards. I did not even consider all the refining points and other stuff needed to upgrade them. Also I will need 66 marks which cost 125000 AD each...
Conclusion:
You want me to spend about 250$ (or € in my case) and a lot of time to get my toon just about back to the same level it allready was?!
Now that you have been hit with a wall of text and some numbers, what do you guys think I will be doing if this "change" goes live?
*edit: miscalculated cost for wards... not going to change much about my opinion. *dit2: added cost for new marks.
Please don't touch bondings. Why make your customers regret spending real money on the game? Why damaging your company's reputation like this? Neverwinter has a lot of fun and unique features, but it's not the only game available. You are pushing your current and future customers away.
I can't be certain of the real reason behind bonding nerfs - whether it's monetary or due to power creep. Either way, crashing progression is not a good fix. People only pull out their wallet when they feel they are getting a good deal - that there's value in what's being sold. You are destroying that value, and for what?
People have posted videos of FBI run in less than 10 mins. Someone sees that and say that power creep is real. But is that the general experience? Is it good practice to adjust game only based on the 0.1% ?
Someone posts and claim that with OP and DC in party, power goes to 228k. Someone else sees that and claims power sharing is too overpowered. Against dummies, sure, because dummies don't attack and companion don't fly all over the place. Have you even tracked it in real dungeons before making such claims? Or maybe you are the 0.1% and feels that the game needs to adjust to you and you only.
@noworries#8859 I hope that there could be a way to make the game challenging to all players. Is it not possible to make the same dungeons but with difficulty levels based on player choice? Perhaps to have loot tables to include transmutes, fashion, titles, etc unique to these different levels? Why not provide an incentive for everyone to keep progressing?
I am not against changing bonding but base power should be increased or they should rework armors,weapons,enchantment to give more power,armor pen and crit as it will become very difficult for players to do high damage as my main is cw my dmg will be very less compared to before and many other class will suffer only Gwf may survive the changes but still the game will become hard for other classes no one will take other class ppl to High dmg dungeons like MSP/Tong so if bonding are changed everything should be reworked so that it doesn't impact on power etc much or don't change bonding for better as it will impact lot of player and even cause to quit the game
@"yppo#1635" The thing is, we won't just simply lose some stats. We'll lose more stats because we'll have to re-balance our builds to fit the requirements. Eg, we all need 85% resistance ignored for the new dungeon. Some people also want 90%+ crit before stacking power. All of that amounts to massive amounts of trades, both Zen and AD losing value because no one will buy jack <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> because they're already running short with the "unparalleled" upgrade thing. We'll need to grind IG again, and that is something I simply won't do. Replacing my good gear with weaker gear to get the stats I need is not good. No matter what's the situation.
@nitocris83 @"noworries#8859" Seriously, I'm telling you this because I love the game so much, I've invested far too much time to just shift to another game. Don't do it. The impact this will leave on the playerbase is not something you can fix. Tribes: Ascend is the best example I have. It had a MASSIVE playerbase, hundreds of servers, 25+ players on each one. They've lost a LOT of players after some things happened, and once they fixed those issues they started (and done even more to make the game much better), some people came back (that would be me) expecting servers to be filled to the brim, struggling to find a single open spot. What I saw is an exercise in futility to keep the servers alive. Currently about 20% of the playerbase are cheaters, the rest are some people that played from the start and are pros. That's about 50-100 people total. From literally tens of thousands. To a few dozen. It was a painful experience and I don't want another game that I just simply love even after 2000+ hours of mistreatment and abuse to die. Could be classified as Stockholm syndrome, really.
> @mamalion1234 said: > Even with the new changes to bondings 65% at rank 14 we will still see those numbers > > > Note i have seen and 280000 but i couldnt get fast a screenshot. > > We gonna see more than this if companions keep transfering the buffed power to the player and that because all we will get increase to our base power and companion power through level 14 radiants =1000 stat rating no matter what you did to the bonding . > > Its fine to keep the bonding as you plan too but please fix the double share of power through the bonding procs. Otherwise soon we'll have the same issues as the power creep will get even higher and you will have to nerf either the bonding or the classes that share power. > > Those of you disagree that the double power share is wrong can you tell us if is fair for two classes to double buff ( which means x4 power share through the companion and bonding )? > > Most of you complained about double dip debuffs on tr but you dont complain about quadrable > power sharing of 2 classes( op-dc).
Nobody consistently sees power like this in real dungeon runs. Please don't spread information like this without taking screenshots throughout actual dungeon runs.
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treesclimberMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,161Arc User
What if there was a compensation for bondings nerf? Something like a runestone of the same rank, a lot of people complain about the investment, loss of stats is not debatable since new r14 enchantments are here, the game must go on and unlike r12 that got something else bondings are getting cut so....why not...
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svenisperfectMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 40Arc User
So without doing anything wrong I will lose at least 13300 statpoints, which equals 19 (nineteen!!!) R12 enchants.
I think you should be wondering why it gave those insane amount of stat points for 3 enchantments in the first place. I joined the flock of rank 12 bondings as well, but I welcome the needed nerf. The item was just too good compared to other options, this will bring it more in line.
So without doing anything wrong I will lose at least 13300 statpoints, which equals 19 (nineteen!!!) R12 enchants.
I think you should be wondering why it gave those insane amount of stat points for 3 enchantments in the first place. I joined the flock of rank 12 bondings as well, but I welcome the needed nerf. The item was just too good compared to other options, this will bring it more in line.
IF (big IF here) the content wasn't designed around those massive buffs and the stones quite readily available for quite some time, the overall outcry might be not as bad. Removing that much without compensation in difficulty levels or a reasonable alternative to gain back is just plain stupid and insulting.
> @svenisperfect said: > So without doing anything wrong I will lose at least 13300 statpoints, which equals 19 (nineteen!!!) R12 enchants. > > > I think you should be wondering why it gave those insane amount of stat points for 3 enchantments in the first place. I joined the flock of rank 12 bondings as well, but I welcome the needed nerf. The item was just too good compared to other options, this will bring it more in line.
There are other ways to do that. Buff augments, for example. It's really either the people who don't have bondings or have way too much AD who are saying "ooh it's good that they got nerfed". NO IT IS NOT. People spent real money on this. Something you PAY for is not something that should be taken away. That's like paying for a house and everything else, no issues whatsoever, and then your country takes it because "<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> you got mine". That is not good marketing. It's an exercise in failure.
@"yppo#1635"
The thing is, this could've been avoided by just removing the "feature" that power buffs work on companions. Or just heavily reduced, to like 5% of what it does to players. It's that simple.
> So without doing anything wrong I will lose at least 13300 statpoints, which equals 19 (nineteen!!!) R12 enchants.
>
>
> I think you should be wondering why it gave those insane amount of stat points for 3 enchantments in the first place. I joined the flock of rank 12 bondings as well, but I welcome the needed nerf. The item was just too good compared to other options, this will bring it more in line.
There are other ways to do that. Buff augments, for example. It's really either the people who don't have bondings or have way too much AD who are saying "ooh it's good that they got nerfed". NO IT IS NOT. People spent real money on this. Something you PAY for is not something that should be taken away. That's like paying for a house and everything else, no issues whatsoever, and then your country takes it because "HAMSTER you got mine". That is not good marketing. It's an exercise in failure.
The thing is, this could've been avoided by just removing the "feature" that power buffs work on companions. Or just heavily reduced, to like 5% of what it does to players. It's that simple.
Not all the people that dont have R12 bondings are ther, i dont have those (part of it was beveuse i knew the berf would come, but i agree that people that had this level enchant HAVE to be refounded in some way !! i reaaaaaly expensive to get and was the best buff in game, plus was not an exploit so, people shoudnt be forced to pay more money in wasrd and RP to try to reach the same level they where before... even a level iscrease would not be that unfair...
so my point of view:
1) I agree that bonding AND some other buffs are too much these days ? Yes
2) They should be berfed ? yes
3) People thet have those shoud be refounded in some way ? YES
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adinosiiMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,294Arc User
Nobody consistently sees power like this in real dungeon runs. Please don't spread information like this without taking screenshots throughout actual dungeon runs.
Uh... 200K+is perfectly normal and common in high-end groups.
The highest-end content (ToNG) needs something like that for a really smooth and fast (30-40 minute) run. Sure, you can do the content without a massive power buffing like that, but it will just take longer.
If you take away the power sharing you might also need to reduce the damage you have to do to finish ToNG. This would also solve the issue of negative damage - it is silly to see the main DPS at the bottom of the "damage dealt" list.
That happens because the game seems to store the damage as a signed 32-bit number, which cannot represent anything higher than 2.147.483.647. When your total damage exceeds that, it overflows and goes negative.
Quite frankly, a bug like that indicates an absurd lack of testing...but that is the subject of a different thread.
Nobody consistently sees power like this in real dungeon runs. Please don't spread information like this without taking screenshots throughout actual dungeon runs.
Uh... 200K+is perfectly normal and common in high-end groups.
The highest-end content (ToNG) needs something like that for a really smooth and fast (30-40 minute) run. Sure, you can do the content without a massive power buffing like that, but it will just take longer.
If you take away the power sharing you might also need to reduce the damage you have to do to finish ToNG. This would also solve the issue of negative damage - it is silly to see the main DPS at the bottom of the "damage dealt" list.
That happens because the game seems to store the damage as a signed 32-bit number, which cannot represent anything higher than 2.147.483.647. When your total damage exceeds that, it overflows and goes negative.
Quite frankly, a bug like that indicates an absurd lack of testing...but that is the subject of a different thread.
The reason for the flipping to negative damage in T9G (please no tong for the love of god :P) is because of the bloody death buff that the dps takes, which is can be from 40% and up to 55% of the damage he deals. I've debuffed it to hit up to 13m per hit.
We did a no dc run for fun with sw templock - pally - gf - gwf -cw debuffer in 40-50 min on the first day and we didn't know the dungeon well. We had actually a couple of wipes on 1st and last boss (as expected for a 1st run)
Sure it's not 20 that we do now but it's not that terrible either. plus I'm sure we can get it to normal times.
No one is saying take away the power share, I m trying to say IF the companion is not intended and that's why we have the situation with the bonding's change right now, its better to just remove the double share through companion and adjust the base share, and KEEP bondings as they are now with the rank 14 only as change. That way the excessive power will go to the player and not originate from a buff and in that way make more classes desirable for runs. Or anyway something to that extend.
As for @polarp178 that wanted a picture, this is one with a dc and sw share. I can get close to 280k with a paly but I'll take a screen later on. Note here the sw at best shares 10k power
the most striking effect of bondings is power sharing through bondings, which gives 4 times the shared power. we see power stats beyond 100k like this. it has been amply stated in this thread by forum members, but not been addressed in the planned changes by developers.
to reduce our bonding stats now and partially sell them back to us through upgrading is ... well, depressing. for some classes, like my main, a dc, this will be strongly felt in dailies, for instance in soshenstar river. i know this, because bondings sometimes pause there, and it's tough going then...
i was planning to ugrade a 2nd set to R12 this weekend for alts, but won't do that now and will likely take it slow with upgrading to R14 ... unsure.
Comments
Instead, why don't you... nerf power share? It's that bloody simple. If this goes through - I'm out. I just can't for the life of me bother to grind for another 2000 hours and get bloody nowhere. It is just too much, Cryptic. Heck, I can even deal with R14 requirements - a coal ward. But bonding nerf changes nothing besides people's willingness to give you money, ever again. You won't profit from this money-hungering, ironically.
Here's a little marketing tutorial for you: the way to make people give you money is by telling them they can get better than ever, not worse than before anything happened. People like getting promoted. What you just did is like telling someone they're fired, and then telling them that they're not but they're getting paid 50% less. No matter what happens, that person WILL NOT be happy.
Cheerios,
-Dorian.
bondings do not trasfer HP from defense slots, can you fix it since you are already changing them?
> @noworries#8859
> bondings do not trasfer HP from defense slots, can you fix it since you are already changing them?
That would be stupidly overpowered for pallies. And it's WAI, so no change.
> > @rayrdan said:
>
> > @noworries#8859
>
> > bondings do not trasfer HP from defense slots, can you fix it since you are already changing them?
>
>
>
> That would be stupidly overpowered for pallies. And it's WAI, so no change.
>
> Ofcourse bondings transfering buffed power is normal compare to this :smile:
Yeah that's a completely different issue. That's related to DCs and pallies affecting comps.
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
Link:
https://forum.arcgames.com/neverwinter/discussion/1234049/official-feedback-thread-random-queues/p1
Dont know how all this will end, but if its just as cruel as I describe above , you will feel the consequences.
eso quest are awsome, ffxiv hunt is really better ,all around the world..here i bash mob for 2h,finaly 1 pop,drop nothing, hurra,second pop nothing hurra(& yes i dont have any in my bag)
you give us nothing and want to take us much, i love playing my char, but i feel frustation each time, and i m main SW ,already got nerf (corrected) (i ve hear about removing lifesteal?temptlock garbage?) & when i see trans lightning on my cw, half stuffed, doing more damage, and i m mof, not even dps, it s just ... sw got trans vorpal as lightning suck with her..same king of skill, but on SW tic once, on CW tic each proc,and pinball ball on each mob,jackpot!
btw weapon dammage from weapon enchant get all buffed, but weapon dammage from my talents tree still do HAMSTER dammage, or from artefact, so 1 weapon damage not same as another
bah i ve put real money in the game hoping for nice content..
From a design standpoint the devs believe that bondings offer to much, or have, limited their design approach, but at the same time, most average groups with r12s, will be able to finish msva /fbi and tong with them on. that is ok, from a playberbase perspective, you can draw from several hundred to a thousand players maybe at your time zone to do this content. thats it.. so if there is 4000 players on at one time, you might see 3-400 that can actually run that content.. at the same time those players are spread out, doing dailies, running different things, or just maybe chilling.. already run their stuff for the day..
The super speed runs are not your average players, these are extreme 1%s or up to 4/5% at most of the entire playerbase, that test things, find cracks in certain areas, know the value of full buffing designs and mechanics , while having most of the top gear in the game, while they release fully impressive videos, this isnt readily duplicated by just everyone else.. I think any design around that player-base, is well extreme, so I hope they just discounted it to start with.
while its easy to say.. well anyone could just bring a bunch of debuffs and finish it.. its not always easy.. say out of that 3-400 actual players who "can" run one of those dungeons.. there is 20-30 dcs/ops/gfs on , a full debuff group would be 2 dcs/1op/1gf , while you can sub one dc out for a mof or sw, or swap one of those out for something else.. (with slighly worse returns ) finding a combination of that is a bit harder.
Just frankly most people give up, run 2-3 dps instead.. take longer times to finish said runs (which is fine btw) so they dont see this massive design issue to scale back bondings to the point that the company thinks we should.
Frankly RNG is also involved.. GREAT to make us dial everything way back, take 1 hours to finish a dungeon... IF we could then get a guarantee that 30 runs of said dungeon is enough.. but some of us have run UP to ten thousand runs of some dungeons without getting what we want out of them. But instead its not like that.. you could run hundreds of said dungeons and get HAMSTER out of them.. fun ya?
RNG is a cloister HAMSTER in all of this. That makes said design terrible to start with.
Overall.. what I would do is simple.. rescale your game, remove all debuff builds except out of core utility classes, then only allow certain debuffs to stack instead.
Sadly, this mess started in mod 6.. and its just not bondings that is a issue, its a massive issue with the whole game, unless they want to tackle the entire game and fix it.. doing this piece meal would cause more of a mess then help.
if they did alot of give and take, found out what was best overall for players,, thats one thing.. just making you RE BUY power you have is
INSULTING.
This is getting reeeeeeeeally old.
Second when a lot of people state that the bonding (that they have paid) itself is not the problem but the powersharing makes it look like a problem and that's we are where we are now, having it changed and nerfed what does it make more sense to you? To nerf the bondings of all people or to adjust the powershare to be more inline with everything else.
You assume I complain as you assume a lot of things and you know what they say about people that assume.
Yet you mentioned your companion effect which is also irrelevant and not what happens to the other players companions and bondings which is the real issue.
Then you better spend sometime and read what the SW Temptation path is all about. Ap share, lifesteal share, damage resist share and power share, healing....lots of shares... Also the boost to power DOESN'T go through the bonding to you. Test it anytime you like. At the end of the day powershare is powershare no matter where it comes from unless you have exclusivity. I'm not asking for more or less, I'm saying treat them the same. As your debuffs as a dc are the same as a cw, different values same effect. I don't ask for different values, just same effect. See at all this point you start assuming again and become personal and trying to insult and insinuate (unsuccessfully at that) when the arguments run out.
I dont "fear" anything but judging from your reaction I think you do. Did we strike a nerve?
What I can do or not has nothing to do with anything and same goes for you too. The world isn't measured by your needs or mine and it isn't revolving around us either. So tell me what do I try, not expose about what I do? Because trust me I do what I do very well. But trying to have a decent game that is fair for all, is to much for you I guess. Tell us please since you seem to know so well.
What level is that you think you are that your entire class is based whether you buff a companion or not? What does that say about your skill or talent? How selfish can a person be that would prefer for all the people to have their bondings nerfed instead of adjust one buff. I never even said nerf, I just identified a problem. There are other ways to preserve the buff as is, make it a straight damage buff or make it not shared through companions while making it give more power to players. What are your proposals??? NADA Only failed innuendos.
This is what you fail to see.. We are not talking about the bonding. As I said its not an issue, the powershare is, you keep making it an issue and talking about stones and augments.
Also no matter how good the augment becomes if it doesn't give the second powershare to the DPS through the DC it will never be as good simply because a DC with the double share will give way more power then the bondings or anything else will ever give.
If you are so right explain this to me. Why does a bonding at best as it is now gives 27k stats more or less but a dc can give 100k+ Which is the real elephant here?
You keep saying I complain blah blah but better reread the post I made. I said I don't think that's right...I asked people to say why do they think they are right with the double buff.
If anything all i see in this post is a hurt person complaining about me stating the obvious and on top trying to become personal and misdirecting the conversation so please stick to the facts. Again going round and round... I support what behavior exactly? That I ask for a reversal to the bonding stone change and instead asking for adjustment on a buff that makes the bonding stone look broken?
Let me ask you a question CLEARLY (emphasis not shouting)
Do you support the
1. Nerf the % of bonding and perhaps the uptime and keep power sharing for the AC DC as is
2. Let the bondings as it is and adjust the power sharing so the AC is still viable.
If you are to answer, answer this so we all can see clear your intentions as I showed mine then please expand to any venue you like.
To be honest because it seems like a grey area, can he have one of the devs clear this for us please?
If it is then all fine and we'll continue game life as is, if not...
1) revert all the proposed changes to runestones, went with the refine changes only
2) Fixed the bonding runestones bugs regarding powersharing
3) introduced diminishing returns on all stats. (balanced and tested)
Honestly that way you would fix every single problem you have
1) Bondings people paid and worked for will still be the way to go
2) you get rid of stats and introduce more diversity and specialization.
3) you untie your hands a little when designing new gear and content
4) You make it easier for new players
5) end game players would still have a reason to grind for BiS if they want to
I would welcome that.
[PS4] Alliance - House Stargaryen
The 2nd option is by far better. The issue is in power. You still get way too much power with power share, even after the nerf, and you just <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> people off because they have to re-adjust their stats to make their builds viable. Just generally not a good fix.
Not good, 100% uptime with the 65% with companions like fire archons or kenku archer the effective % of gift during a run will be at least 170%, fixing bondings is fixing a mistake, the price of bondings is getting way way closer to other runestones now so there is no excuse, screw bondings i have them and see them nerfed is a relieve, since others don't agree with me there is one other solution, bring other runestones even more up, eldricht r14 to 33% and other correspondent amounts, i've also been wondering about old players complaining that they are in disavantage, well what if r12 where increased from 700(or correspondent ) to 750, being the other 2 ranks above distributed more evently?
Since the servers are down I have the time to do some basic math. I will not consider any effects like powersharing, but I will expect to see a mayor loss there too. Using those numbers I will explain why I will feel robbed and instantly quit NW if those changes are coming as they are.
As basis for my calculation I will use 3 items with an average of 1000 statpoints and 2 enchantment slots each. Also I will use maxed stones, meaning bondings R12 and pure R12s. And since I can't remember the raw stats on a companion I will asume 1000 there, too.
Currently this toon will gain:
(3*1000 + 3*840 + 6*700 +1000)*2.85
(gear + bonding stats + entchantments + companion stats)*bonding multiplier
= 30552 statpoints
Assumed gains after changes assuming the uptime will really be 100% like it is now:
(3*1000 + 3*750 + 6*700 +1000)*1.65
(gear + bonding stats + entchantments + companion stats)*bonding multiplier
=17243 statpoints
So without doing anything wrong I will lose at least 13300 statpoints, which equals 19 (nineteen!!!) R12 enchants. Seriously?!
Now going one step further:
The difficulty level of the content is NOT supposed to be changed in any way. So I will have to gain those lost statpoints to just be able to experience the same gaming as before!
If i upgrade everything on my companion I will get the following:
(3*1000 + 3*1050 + 6*1000 +1000)*1.95
(gear + bonding stats + entchantments + companion stats)*bonding multiplier
=25642 statpoints... still missing roughly 5k points...
...so upgrading personal entchants, R12-R14 gives +300 statpoints:
(30552-25642)/300 = 16.4
So I have to upgrade 17 R12 entchants to R14 to close the gap... oh wait... only got 13 to upgrade.
Assuming I upgrade all my 22 entchants form R12 to R14 and I am neither lucky nor unlike I will need about 33 wards for R13 each (3% chance) and will assume 1 coal ward for R14 (the 1% chance...). This will cost me about 25000 Zen (with 15% discount) to get all the wards. I did not even consider all the refining points and other stuff needed to upgrade them. Also I will need 66 marks which cost 125000 AD each...
Conclusion:
You want me to spend about 250$ (or € in my case) and a lot of time to get my toon just about back to the same level it allready was?!
Now that you have been hit with a wall of text and some numbers, what do you guys think I will be doing if this "change" goes live?
*edit: miscalculated cost for wards... not going to change much about my opinion.
*dit2: added cost for new marks.
I can't be certain of the real reason behind bonding nerfs - whether it's monetary or due to power creep. Either way, crashing progression is not a good fix. People only pull out their wallet when they feel they are getting a good deal - that there's value in what's being sold. You are destroying that value, and for what?
People have posted videos of FBI run in less than 10 mins. Someone sees that and say that power creep is real. But is that the general experience? Is it good practice to adjust game only based on the 0.1% ?
Someone posts and claim that with OP and DC in party, power goes to 228k. Someone else sees that and claims power sharing is too overpowered. Against dummies, sure, because dummies don't attack and companion don't fly all over the place. Have you even tracked it in real dungeons before making such claims? Or maybe you are the 0.1% and feels that the game needs to adjust to you and you only.
@noworries#8859
I hope that there could be a way to make the game challenging to all players.
Is it not possible to make the same dungeons but with difficulty levels based on player choice? Perhaps to have loot tables to include transmutes, fashion, titles, etc unique to these different levels? Why not provide an incentive for everyone to keep progressing?
Maxell,Maxell_gf,Maxell_sw etc
The thing is, we won't just simply lose some stats. We'll lose more stats because we'll have to re-balance our builds to fit the requirements. Eg, we all need 85% resistance ignored for the new dungeon. Some people also want 90%+ crit before stacking power. All of that amounts to massive amounts of trades, both Zen and AD losing value because no one will buy jack <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> because they're already running short with the "unparalleled" upgrade thing.
We'll need to grind IG again, and that is something I simply won't do. Replacing my good gear with weaker gear to get the stats I need is not good. No matter what's the situation.
@nitocris83 @"noworries#8859"
Seriously, I'm telling you this because I love the game so much, I've invested far too much time to just shift to another game. Don't do it. The impact this will leave on the playerbase is not something you can fix. Tribes: Ascend is the best example I have. It had a MASSIVE playerbase, hundreds of servers, 25+ players on each one. They've lost a LOT of players after some things happened, and once they fixed those issues they started (and done even more to make the game much better), some people came back (that would be me) expecting servers to be filled to the brim, struggling to find a single open spot. What I saw is an exercise in futility to keep the servers alive. Currently about 20% of the playerbase are cheaters, the rest are some people that played from the start and are pros. That's about 50-100 people total. From literally tens of thousands. To a few dozen. It was a painful experience and I don't want another game that I just simply love even after 2000+ hours of mistreatment and abuse to die. Could be classified as Stockholm syndrome, really.
> Even with the new changes to bondings 65% at rank 14 we will still see those numbers
>
>
> Note i have seen and 280000 but i couldnt get fast a screenshot.
>
> We gonna see more than this if companions keep transfering the buffed power to the player and that because all we will get increase to our base power and companion power through level 14 radiants =1000 stat rating no matter what you did to the bonding .
>
> Its fine to keep the bonding as you plan too but please fix the double share of power through the bonding procs. Otherwise soon we'll have the same issues as the power creep will get even higher and you will have to nerf either the bonding or the classes that share power.
>
> Those of you disagree that the double power share is wrong can you tell us if is fair for two classes to double buff ( which means x4 power share through the companion and bonding )?
>
> Most of you complained about double dip debuffs on tr but you dont complain about quadrable
> power sharing of 2 classes( op-dc).
Nobody consistently sees power like this in real dungeon runs. Please don't spread information like this without taking screenshots throughout actual dungeon runs.
> So without doing anything wrong I will lose at least 13300 statpoints, which equals 19 (nineteen!!!) R12 enchants.
>
>
> I think you should be wondering why it gave those insane amount of stat points for 3 enchantments in the first place. I joined the flock of rank 12 bondings as well, but I welcome the needed nerf. The item was just too good compared to other options, this will bring it more in line.
There are other ways to do that. Buff augments, for example. It's really either the people who don't have bondings or have way too much AD who are saying "ooh it's good that they got nerfed". NO IT IS NOT. People spent real money on this. Something you PAY for is not something that should be taken away. That's like paying for a house and everything else, no issues whatsoever, and then your country takes it because "<font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> you got mine". That is not good marketing. It's an exercise in failure.
@"yppo#1635"
The thing is, this could've been avoided by just removing the "feature" that power buffs work on companions. Or just heavily reduced, to like 5% of what it does to players. It's that simple.
i reaaaaaly expensive to get and was the best buff in game, plus was not an exploit so, people shoudnt be forced to pay more money in wasrd and RP to try to reach the same level they where before...
even a level iscrease would not be that unfair...
so my point of view:
1) I agree that bonding AND some other buffs are too much these days ? Yes
2) They should be berfed ? yes
3) People thet have those shoud be refounded in some way ? YES
The highest-end content (ToNG) needs something like that for a really smooth and fast (30-40 minute) run. Sure, you can do the content without a massive power buffing like that, but it will just take longer.
If you take away the power sharing you might also need to reduce the damage you have to do to finish ToNG. This would also solve the issue of negative damage - it is silly to see the main DPS at the bottom of the "damage dealt" list.
That happens because the game seems to store the damage as a signed 32-bit number, which cannot represent anything higher than 2.147.483.647. When your total damage exceeds that, it overflows and goes negative.
Quite frankly, a bug like that indicates an absurd lack of testing...but that is the subject of a different thread.
We did a no dc run for fun with sw templock - pally - gf - gwf -cw debuffer in 40-50 min on the first day and we didn't know the dungeon well. We had actually a couple of wipes on 1st and last boss (as expected for a 1st run)
Sure it's not 20 that we do now but it's not that terrible either. plus I'm sure we can get it to normal times.
No one is saying take away the power share, I m trying to say IF the companion is not intended and that's why we have the situation with the bonding's change right now, its better to just remove the double share through companion and adjust the base share, and KEEP bondings as they are now with the rank 14 only as change. That way the excessive power will go to the player and not originate from a buff and in that way make more classes desirable for runs. Or anyway something to that extend.
As for @polarp178 that wanted a picture, this is one with a dc and sw share. I can get close to 280k with a paly but I'll take a screen later on. Note here the sw at best shares 10k power
it has been amply stated in this thread by forum members, but not been addressed in the planned changes by developers.
to reduce our bonding stats now and partially sell them back to us through upgrading is ... well, depressing.
for some classes, like my main, a dc, this will be strongly felt in dailies, for instance in soshenstar river. i know this, because bondings sometimes pause there, and it's tough going then...
i was planning to ugrade a 2nd set to R12 this weekend for alts, but won't do that now and will likely take it slow with upgrading to R14 ... unsure.