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Three Things to Help Rebalance TRs
sirjimbofrancis
Member Posts: 348 Arc User
In an effort to try to whittle down our original list of TR balance suggestions to better align with the new plan for class rebalance, I thought I would try to pick three things that would be easier to implement, with a minimal effect between PVE and PVP, and would help our class the most.
First, let me explain where I am coming from with regards to the TR class. TRs can do well in PVE content. However, everything we do, other classes do better. Without relying on bugs, and everything being equal (gear,skill, etc), can a TR compete in mob damage with a CW, HR, or GWF? Can a TR compete in single target damage with GWFs or HRs? Can a TR compete with any other class in party buffs? It's not that we are terrible. We can complete Solo content. We can contribute to a party. But, we are not on par with nearly every DPS class out there.
I know there will be a few that disagree with me on that point. Even a few TRs. And, they can totally do that. But, they can't say I don't know how the TR works or claim I am ignorant or don't know how to play. And, I'm not drawing from only my experience. My efforts here are meant to be constructive. Try to keep the comments likewise, please.
Special thanks for this go out to Janne, Blur, and all the TRs from the Facebook group!
1) Duelist Flurry:
Known Bugs:
Duelist's Flurry Bleeds - When Bleeds are re-applied only the timer is refreshed. Damage from the Bleeds is not refreshed to benefit from buffs of the moment when they were re-applied. This causes the Bleeds not to receive buffs such as Demon Lord's Immortality set and many other which were not active when Bleeds were applied the first time. Are the Bleeds separated when applied to same target, or do all TRs share the same stack?
Also, currently Bleeds stack to 11 instead fo 10. We dont know if this was a intended hidden buff, but Bleed icon and ACT show different numbers.
Also, the number of bleed ticks after the bleed is applied seems to be random. For example, with two bleeds, we got 5 ticks. With one bleed, we got 7 ticks. With one rotation (about 5 bleeds), we got anywhere from 9-11 ticks. The word "random" really ought to be in the tooltip a lot...;)
Duelist's Flurry (DF) - The ability is unforgiving, with lag, particularly. But, whatever is causing it, the hits of the Flurry part, which are supposed to apply Bleeds, are skipping and when that happens, fewer bleeds are applied. The maximum number of hits in a full DF is 9, but as shown in a screenshot in the old thread, it drops to as few as 2.
Suggestions for Rework:
The biggest proportion of the damage TRs do in PVE comes from duelist's flurry. Depending on the build, even conservatively, it accounts for greater than 30% of TR's overall damage. Some bosses like FBI (Drufi and Hati), or mSVA, or 2nd boss in mSP, either move a lot, or appear for short phases of time, limiting the effectiveness of this power. No other class is as handicapped with their at-wills, and consequently their damage, as TRs are by this mechanic.
The reason for this problem is because it takes long time to set up a full stack of bleeds on a target (about 3 flurries). In addition, the randomness of the flurry bleed stacking, as outlined in the known bugs section, makes it much more difficult, when compared to other classes, to have a single rotation. It forces TRs to try to watch for the stack numbers, which is nearly impossible with the tiny text in the moving debuff list. Also, the length of the mechanic is unforgiving for mistakes or extended dodges. For example, if the TR is caught in ice, the full bleed is not applied. Or, if the TR dodges too far, or makes a rotation mistake, the full bleed is not applied.
Our suggestion is to make a single flurry add all 10 stacks of bleed. This makes adding bleeds not a "chance", but a reliable system. This allows TRs to have higher overall burst, less time to set up the damage, and an easier mechanic as TRs can make a fixed rotation.
Another suggestion is to change 10 bleeds into one single Bleed which is damage wise equal to current 10(11). Any hit of the Flurry can apply it and once applied it doesn't stack.
2) Tab/Stealth Mechanic:
Known Bugs:
When Soulforged activates under the effect of Lurker's Assault our Stealth gets stuck and will not recharge unless we change instance or relog.
Suggestions for Rework:
The stealth mechanic is the primary TR skill, and it has a unique problem. Although, the main advantage granted by stealth is automatic critical strike and combat advantage, it doesn't last long enough for TRs to abandon allocating points in critical strike, because a high percentage of TR damage comes from attacks performed outside of stealth. This creates a situation where stealth provides very little in PVE since most of time TRs already have combat advantage, and already have a high critical strike percentage. Because of this, the TR's tab mechanic grants the smallest advantage when compared to every other class in PVE content.
As of now, stealth adds 100% critical chance as a direct rating modifier. For example, when the stealth button is pressed, a TR with a 70% critical chance will then have a 170% critical chance. Obviously, 170% critical chance is in no way better than 100%.
This suggestion originally outlined in this post by @hoperuby, offered an interesting solution. In short, it suggests taking the extra percentage in stealth over 100%, and add that to the critical severity percentage. So a player with 70% crit would receive 70% crit severity when they enter stealth.
A more simple solution would be to simply add 50% crit severity while using stealth. This also allows a nice scaling as it will help lower leveled and lower geared TRs much more than BIS TRs.
3) AoE Attacks:
TRs only have a few AOE attacks that are viable at endgame content: smoke bomb and blade Flurry. It would be nice to have another option, and PoTB might be it, but it's damage is so super small, it needs to be upped. Maybe as much as a 4x or 5x what it does now.
Another option would be to add an aoe at-will attack. We are really deficient there. I know adding a new power may be more than you all want to take on, so consider making a little used at-will like Gloaming Cut, and make it into an aoe. It isn't particularly fast, and would be on par with GWF and GF's Master Weapon Strike. Something that can hit multiple enemies in a wide arc in front of you.
Note: The reworked weapon enchantments have not been useful for the TR class because they do not proc on Path of the Blade, or (more importantly) smoke bomb. The TR power that has the most utility in the game is smoke bomb. And, it doesn't work with any of the new enchants.
Please fix this interaction with these two powers, so that we can take advantage of some of the new enchantments, as every other class has be able to do.
Thank you for taking the time to read, and if you want to spend more time on TR class and make other trees and paragon useful please check our compiled suggestions in old thread here.
@terramak
@dreadnaught#5263
@chaidrin#2320
@nitocris83
@asterdahl
@mimicking#6533
First, let me explain where I am coming from with regards to the TR class. TRs can do well in PVE content. However, everything we do, other classes do better. Without relying on bugs, and everything being equal (gear,skill, etc), can a TR compete in mob damage with a CW, HR, or GWF? Can a TR compete in single target damage with GWFs or HRs? Can a TR compete with any other class in party buffs? It's not that we are terrible. We can complete Solo content. We can contribute to a party. But, we are not on par with nearly every DPS class out there.
I know there will be a few that disagree with me on that point. Even a few TRs. And, they can totally do that. But, they can't say I don't know how the TR works or claim I am ignorant or don't know how to play. And, I'm not drawing from only my experience. My efforts here are meant to be constructive. Try to keep the comments likewise, please.
Special thanks for this go out to Janne, Blur, and all the TRs from the Facebook group!
1) Duelist Flurry:
Known Bugs:
Duelist's Flurry Bleeds - When Bleeds are re-applied only the timer is refreshed. Damage from the Bleeds is not refreshed to benefit from buffs of the moment when they were re-applied. This causes the Bleeds not to receive buffs such as Demon Lord's Immortality set and many other which were not active when Bleeds were applied the first time. Are the Bleeds separated when applied to same target, or do all TRs share the same stack?
Also, currently Bleeds stack to 11 instead fo 10. We dont know if this was a intended hidden buff, but Bleed icon and ACT show different numbers.
Also, the number of bleed ticks after the bleed is applied seems to be random. For example, with two bleeds, we got 5 ticks. With one bleed, we got 7 ticks. With one rotation (about 5 bleeds), we got anywhere from 9-11 ticks. The word "random" really ought to be in the tooltip a lot...;)
Duelist's Flurry (DF) - The ability is unforgiving, with lag, particularly. But, whatever is causing it, the hits of the Flurry part, which are supposed to apply Bleeds, are skipping and when that happens, fewer bleeds are applied. The maximum number of hits in a full DF is 9, but as shown in a screenshot in the old thread, it drops to as few as 2.
Suggestions for Rework:
The biggest proportion of the damage TRs do in PVE comes from duelist's flurry. Depending on the build, even conservatively, it accounts for greater than 30% of TR's overall damage. Some bosses like FBI (Drufi and Hati), or mSVA, or 2nd boss in mSP, either move a lot, or appear for short phases of time, limiting the effectiveness of this power. No other class is as handicapped with their at-wills, and consequently their damage, as TRs are by this mechanic.
The reason for this problem is because it takes long time to set up a full stack of bleeds on a target (about 3 flurries). In addition, the randomness of the flurry bleed stacking, as outlined in the known bugs section, makes it much more difficult, when compared to other classes, to have a single rotation. It forces TRs to try to watch for the stack numbers, which is nearly impossible with the tiny text in the moving debuff list. Also, the length of the mechanic is unforgiving for mistakes or extended dodges. For example, if the TR is caught in ice, the full bleed is not applied. Or, if the TR dodges too far, or makes a rotation mistake, the full bleed is not applied.
Our suggestion is to make a single flurry add all 10 stacks of bleed. This makes adding bleeds not a "chance", but a reliable system. This allows TRs to have higher overall burst, less time to set up the damage, and an easier mechanic as TRs can make a fixed rotation.
Another suggestion is to change 10 bleeds into one single Bleed which is damage wise equal to current 10(11). Any hit of the Flurry can apply it and once applied it doesn't stack.
2) Tab/Stealth Mechanic:
Known Bugs:
When Soulforged activates under the effect of Lurker's Assault our Stealth gets stuck and will not recharge unless we change instance or relog.
Suggestions for Rework:
The stealth mechanic is the primary TR skill, and it has a unique problem. Although, the main advantage granted by stealth is automatic critical strike and combat advantage, it doesn't last long enough for TRs to abandon allocating points in critical strike, because a high percentage of TR damage comes from attacks performed outside of stealth. This creates a situation where stealth provides very little in PVE since most of time TRs already have combat advantage, and already have a high critical strike percentage. Because of this, the TR's tab mechanic grants the smallest advantage when compared to every other class in PVE content.
As of now, stealth adds 100% critical chance as a direct rating modifier. For example, when the stealth button is pressed, a TR with a 70% critical chance will then have a 170% critical chance. Obviously, 170% critical chance is in no way better than 100%.
This suggestion originally outlined in this post by @hoperuby, offered an interesting solution. In short, it suggests taking the extra percentage in stealth over 100%, and add that to the critical severity percentage. So a player with 70% crit would receive 70% crit severity when they enter stealth.
A more simple solution would be to simply add 50% crit severity while using stealth. This also allows a nice scaling as it will help lower leveled and lower geared TRs much more than BIS TRs.
3) AoE Attacks:
TRs only have a few AOE attacks that are viable at endgame content: smoke bomb and blade Flurry. It would be nice to have another option, and PoTB might be it, but it's damage is so super small, it needs to be upped. Maybe as much as a 4x or 5x what it does now.
Another option would be to add an aoe at-will attack. We are really deficient there. I know adding a new power may be more than you all want to take on, so consider making a little used at-will like Gloaming Cut, and make it into an aoe. It isn't particularly fast, and would be on par with GWF and GF's Master Weapon Strike. Something that can hit multiple enemies in a wide arc in front of you.
Note: The reworked weapon enchantments have not been useful for the TR class because they do not proc on Path of the Blade, or (more importantly) smoke bomb. The TR power that has the most utility in the game is smoke bomb. And, it doesn't work with any of the new enchants.
Please fix this interaction with these two powers, so that we can take advantage of some of the new enchantments, as every other class has be able to do.
Thank you for taking the time to read, and if you want to spend more time on TR class and make other trees and paragon useful please check our compiled suggestions in old thread here.
@terramak
@dreadnaught#5263
@chaidrin#2320
@nitocris83
@asterdahl
@mimicking#6533
12
Comments
CW and - adjusting for their own issues -
SW both have AoE capability without having at wills for it (discounting Storm Pillar, 3rd cast Chilling Cloud)
It's really tough to pick 3 things when we have so much that needs attention. But, that is the hand the devs have given us. I can tell you this, and I can only speak for myself, but if I would have know we'd have the rug pulled out from under us regarding our class being "the next to be rebalanced", I never would have spent all that time on the other thread. I'd be willing to bet that the others involved probably feel the same way.
But, here we are. We can lament our position (again), or try to make the best out of what we can. I feel the changes I suggest are probably the most we could hope for and would result in the most positive for our whole class.
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The problem that WK has is that their class features can't compare to MI ones. WK at will is far superior and encounter is worse and of course that knocks them out id Press the advantage. Dailies are equally bad, worthless in PVE. What makes the paragon seem so bad is that it is the lesser path of a class that already underperforms. Buff and repair TR as a whole and WK can be made to work with just some additional tweaks.
I agree that making MI's more useful is making WK's more useless but WK's need more attention just to bring them on par with MI's. I am not sure about WK's arsenal for aoe fights but i guess they have to be in melee range to fight aoe, since their paragon powers dont give any aoe ability(correct me if i am wrong). WK's ranged style doesnt work for PvE, similar why Archery HR's dont work, they are out of range of the buffs.
Giving Gloaming Cut aoe-ish damage area like WMS will barely make any difference. The animation is slow, its inferior to WoB, Smoke bomb, Dazing strike and Blade Flurry. It will basically be used only once, when your AP is not full and when your encounters are on cooldown. It is nothing WK's have to worry about that will set them back even more.
Increasing base damage of Path of the Blade is a better pick for the 3rd option and would help both paragons. Making Smoke bomb and Path of the Blade work with enchantments other than Vorpal (PotB doesnt work with Vorpal either) would increase our chances in aoe fights.
If they can and are willing to adjust every paragon and tree i am up for it.
*I freely admit to not being technical/tester. My WK uses DF and Disheartening. If not for DF I don't think I could scratch big level 73 mobs like Maws. It may be that CoS would be better than Disheartening but it seems farfetched.
Speaking of not being technical, how bad is Blitz? I notice it not being mentioned at all. I use it on WK because of Dagger Threat. MI uses Blade Flurry.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Archery is non-existent since buffs require you to be close while Archer tree requires you to be away, far away. CW's are more ranged than WK's indeed but even they are fighting melee if they want to maximize damage. Ranged companions are not that far away from target either and yet they miss buffs quite often.
I would like if buffs would cover a much wider area so ranged fight styles and ranged companions are more usable but currently we are forced to go melee and in melee there is no reason to pick WK over MI.
About Blitz, its bad. It cant compete with Smoke, Dazing and Blade Flurry. I bet it underperforms even with Dagger threat and its used mainly because its ranged compared to SB, DS and BF. We suggested for Blitz to additionally grant damage buff which could make it replace one of the encounters but for now it is just a suggestion like all others that were listed.
WK has nothing remotely on par with MI in either PvE or PvP. It had brief shining moments, mod 5ish DHS and 11 Razor Action, both subsequently nerfed. Maybe, just maybe, if Razor now shares a bug with SoD piercing double dip... but at the moment I'm more interested in testing my PvE sabo, non-crit non-DF Bloodbath build. Still MI, sad to say.
My usual rotation is stealthed Dazing Strike, followed up by a Stealth Strike and then stealthed Smoke Bomb, or the reverse if I don't have a cluster of enemies yet. It's a fantastic roatation, much better than I can find with anything using Blade Furry.
I can also drop Stealth Strike and use Blitz.
And at 100% crit chance why to use stealth smoke? The slow helps ?
I don't know for other TRs, but I've had some awful experiences while trying to run mSP.
Every single boss has mechanics that either make him invulnerable for a time or constantly interrupt our rotations, which makes DF bleeds and SoD really hard to stack. I'm all for harder dungeons and more interesting strategies, but the path they've taken with mSP makes it really hard for TRs as they currently are and I'm afraid that To9G will be the same. Any TR revamp needs to allow us to bypass that to remain relevant in thes game. mSVA would be an example of the reverse, where it's much easier for a boss-killer TR to shine.
Just wanted to say thanks to you and the rest of the people who worked to put this together. Even though the devs clearly plan to ignore it. My poor WK will still hang out just for the fun of it, but I gave up trying to keep her competitive for end game.
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
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It seems to me adding 10 stacks of bleed right off the bat would be too powerful. Now I am not BIS, but my bleeds can hit up to 121k per tick with WOB. Also it takes 6 sec to apply the full stacks, does it not? Not exactly a "long time". Bleeds are now 30-40% of my damage. With that change, it might double. At any rate, TRs would get a HUGE dps boost, too much I would say.
I will agree Duelist's Furry is a confusing mechanic to understand after taking a look at it.
We asked for that change because there are more and more bosses which are very mobile and stacking bleeds on them is a pain since you might never be able to apply all 10 in rare cases.
Bleeds and SoD should be close to each other now when it comes to damage %. Edit: nvm this %, SoD is changed.
It would give us more damage up front, rather like literally every other DPS class.
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@NITOCRIS83
Any update on anything? Did y'all get this thread? Do we have anything to look forward to in the near future?
She Looked Lvl 18
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Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
a) They ban us all from the forum, so we couldn't go on their nerves anymore and they could fell again in their Sleeping Beauty mode.
b) They could still ignore us.
c) They make a statement like: "Oh yeah we noticed everything, we are working on it, believe us." (and then ignore us).
d) They make a statement like: "Oh yeah we noticed everything, we are working on it, believe us." (and then they recognized that it isn't a good sign for the company, if new players come to the forum and noticed, that there is an imbalance between modi like Pvp and Pve and different classes, so they could loose potential players and customers).
e) they recognize point d), but they don't care. (and surprise they ignore us)
f) someone from the devs have the guts and make in the company a clear statement: "Now or Never! Tr Rework/Tweak (call it as you want) has now a top priority! We are loosing potential customers and i want my new Tesla Car next week, so hurry up!"
g) the devs decided that it is the time to complete delete the Tr, because they simply can't rebalance/tweak these class, but they give us back everything we have invested (AD, Mounts, Enchants, Artefacts, simply all the stuff) through an special vendor, so that we can play now a "proper and easy to handle" class.
So?
"Dear devs"
I hope that you didn't lose in your happy dreamland and everything is AWESOME modus operandi, the tiniest social context, that the frustration from alot of PvE and meanwhile also now PvP Rogues is very high.
And i could only speak for myself (but i bet my potential first born child and my left kidney that i am speaking also from the soul of many others), the only thing that left me in the game is...the people i have met in the guild i am in, the alliance, people i have met during the time and i had the honour to play with them, people on my friendlist like @blur#5900, and yes still standing to my first and always favourited class, the PvE Tr, in good days and also in worse days.
*drops microphone*
Yes we are working on TR/ We have something planned for TR/No we have nothing planned for TR and we are not working on it. Its probably the last option but they cant let us know because it would mean no new Tesla Car for the one who calls the shots.
I can tell from my own experience that nothing has been done about TR for too long. I joined 2 weeks after Underdark went live so i play a bit less than 2 years. Nothing has been done in that time, N.O.T.H.I.N.G. I struggled from the start and needed help too many times because i couldnt solo things while leveling, but i was like, Hey, i am still new, maybe i dont know the class enough... , turns out, after all this time playing only with TR and learning the class as much as possible, nothing has changed. I made a new TR toon, among all other classes and leveled them all to 70. Even with all knowledge and experience with TR i am still struggling compared to other classes which i have no clue about, except maybe SW, class is now as bad as TR, if not worse because no Stealth and shift ability is inferior to dodge.
I dont know if anyone from the devs actually plays a TR and compares it to any other DPS class. Probably not. Situation would not be like this if they were playing it. I dont know who calls the shots but if it takes 2 years or more to do something about a problem which affects many customers then, i dont want to tell you how to do your job but you are doing it wrong.
That is my experience and im playing less than 2 years while many other play much longer, almost twice as long as i play. TR is as is, since mod5(?) and that is long time ago. Since that time you have been testing the patience of TR players and playing the game "How many hits a TR can take before it is enough?".
In T2/T3 dungeons the 1-shot sniping is pathetically weak (excluding uber-buffing here) the DoT powers take too long or are too weak (they need to apply at the same speed & power as HR encounters) - and CC has been made so pointless that even CW's focus on DPS instead of Control.
Not to mention the perverse situation of Stealth giving 100% crit but TRs still having to stack crit. You know what? remove crit from stealth and just give it a power boost instead - I mean, TR's have to stack for 100% crit anyway...
Also, here's a thought - rework First Strike into something that "deals extra damage from Stealth" rather than just the first hit on entering combat (which then becomes pointless for the rest of the fight, whereas 'from stealth' becomes useful every time you re-enter stealth so is usable more than once).
I actually think the TR should be modelled on the Combat HR, with Stealth mechanics replacing the stance switching for mechanic triggers.
Xael De Armadeon: DC
Xane De Armadeon: CW
Zen De Armadeon: OP
Zohar De Armadeon: TR
Chrion De Armadeon: SW
Gosti Big Belly: GWF
Barney McRustbucket: GF
Lt. Thackeray: HR
Lucius De Armadeon: BD
Member of Casual Dailies - XBox
We just want to at least know we're not talking to empty air, that there is someone on the other end reading and considering our input.
Just a yellow name saying, "I exist, I can read and I am reading this."
Out of frustration I put her on the shelf.
I am now building a combat ranger because that at least feels like the character I want to play. I'm not a huge fan of the "Druid Rouge" but it feels like what a dual wield rogue should fee like. Fast, squishy, does mad damage, has an aoe. (I'd rather the aoe be a fire flask on the floor but I'll deal with the roots)
If I could trade the "swap to bow" button for the TR's stealth - I would have the character I wanted my TR to be.
Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP
@nitocris83
@rgutscheradev
@asterdahl
@mimicking#6533
@terramak
@dreadnaught#5263
@chaidrin#2320
@miasmat
@noworries#8859
*Edited to add any other devs I could find*
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