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Three Things to Help Rebalance TRs

sirjimbofrancissirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
In an effort to try to whittle down our original list of TR balance suggestions to better align with the new plan for class rebalance, I thought I would try to pick three things that would be easier to implement, with a minimal effect between PVE and PVP, and would help our class the most.

First, let me explain where I am coming from with regards to the TR class. TRs can do well in PVE content. However, everything we do, other classes do better. Without relying on bugs, and everything being equal (gear,skill, etc), can a TR compete in mob damage with a CW, HR, or GWF? Can a TR compete in single target damage with GWFs or HRs? Can a TR compete with any other class in party buffs? It's not that we are terrible. We can complete Solo content. We can contribute to a party. But, we are not on par with nearly every DPS class out there.

I know there will be a few that disagree with me on that point. Even a few TRs. And, they can totally do that. But, they can't say I don't know how the TR works or claim I am ignorant or don't know how to play. And, I'm not drawing from only my experience. My efforts here are meant to be constructive. Try to keep the comments likewise, please.

Special thanks for this go out to Janne, Blur, and all the TRs from the Facebook group!

1) Duelist Flurry:

Known Bugs:

Duelist's Flurry Bleeds - When Bleeds are re-applied only the timer is refreshed. Damage from the Bleeds is not refreshed to benefit from buffs of the moment when they were re-applied. This causes the Bleeds not to receive buffs such as Demon Lord's Immortality set and many other which were not active when Bleeds were applied the first time. Are the Bleeds separated when applied to same target, or do all TRs share the same stack?

Also, currently Bleeds stack to 11 instead fo 10. We dont know if this was a intended hidden buff, but Bleed icon and ACT show different numbers.

Also, the number of bleed ticks after the bleed is applied seems to be random. For example, with two bleeds, we got 5 ticks. With one bleed, we got 7 ticks. With one rotation (about 5 bleeds), we got anywhere from 9-11 ticks. The word "random" really ought to be in the tooltip a lot...;)

Duelist's Flurry (DF) - The ability is unforgiving, with lag, particularly. But, whatever is causing it, the hits of the Flurry part, which are supposed to apply Bleeds, are skipping and when that happens, fewer bleeds are applied. The maximum number of hits in a full DF is 9, but as shown in a screenshot in the old thread, it drops to as few as 2.

Suggestions for Rework:

The biggest proportion of the damage TRs do in PVE comes from duelist's flurry. Depending on the build, even conservatively, it accounts for greater than 30% of TR's overall damage. Some bosses like FBI (Drufi and Hati), or mSVA, or 2nd boss in mSP, either move a lot, or appear for short phases of time, limiting the effectiveness of this power. No other class is as handicapped with their at-wills, and consequently their damage, as TRs are by this mechanic.

The reason for this problem is because it takes long time to set up a full stack of bleeds on a target (about 3 flurries). In addition, the randomness of the flurry bleed stacking, as outlined in the known bugs section, makes it much more difficult, when compared to other classes, to have a single rotation. It forces TRs to try to watch for the stack numbers, which is nearly impossible with the tiny text in the moving debuff list. Also, the length of the mechanic is unforgiving for mistakes or extended dodges. For example, if the TR is caught in ice, the full bleed is not applied. Or, if the TR dodges too far, or makes a rotation mistake, the full bleed is not applied.

Our suggestion is to make a single flurry add all 10 stacks of bleed. This makes adding bleeds not a "chance", but a reliable system. This allows TRs to have higher overall burst, less time to set up the damage, and an easier mechanic as TRs can make a fixed rotation.

Another suggestion is to change 10 bleeds into one single Bleed which is damage wise equal to current 10(11). Any hit of the Flurry can apply it and once applied it doesn't stack.

2) Tab/Stealth Mechanic:

Known Bugs:

When Soulforged activates under the effect of Lurker's Assault our Stealth gets stuck and will not recharge unless we change instance or relog.

Suggestions for Rework:

The stealth mechanic is the primary TR skill, and it has a unique problem. Although, the main advantage granted by stealth is automatic critical strike and combat advantage, it doesn't last long enough for TRs to abandon allocating points in critical strike, because a high percentage of TR damage comes from attacks performed outside of stealth. This creates a situation where stealth provides very little in PVE since most of time TRs already have combat advantage, and already have a high critical strike percentage. Because of this, the TR's tab mechanic grants the smallest advantage when compared to every other class in PVE content.

As of now, stealth adds 100% critical chance as a direct rating modifier. For example, when the stealth button is pressed, a TR with a 70% critical chance will then have a 170% critical chance. Obviously, 170% critical chance is in no way better than 100%.

This suggestion originally outlined in this post by @hoperuby, offered an interesting solution. In short, it suggests taking the extra percentage in stealth over 100%, and add that to the critical severity percentage. So a player with 70% crit would receive 70% crit severity when they enter stealth.

A more simple solution would be to simply add 50% crit severity while using stealth. This also allows a nice scaling as it will help lower leveled and lower geared TRs much more than BIS TRs.


3) AoE Attacks:

TRs only have a few AOE attacks that are viable at endgame content: smoke bomb and blade Flurry. It would be nice to have another option, and PoTB might be it, but it's damage is so super small, it needs to be upped. Maybe as much as a 4x or 5x what it does now.

Another option would be to add an aoe at-will attack. We are really deficient there. I know adding a new power may be more than you all want to take on, so consider making a little used at-will like Gloaming Cut, and make it into an aoe. It isn't particularly fast, and would be on par with GWF and GF's Master Weapon Strike. Something that can hit multiple enemies in a wide arc in front of you.

Note: The reworked weapon enchantments have not been useful for the TR class because they do not proc on Path of the Blade, or (more importantly) smoke bomb. The TR power that has the most utility in the game is smoke bomb. And, it doesn't work with any of the new enchants.

Please fix this interaction with these two powers, so that we can take advantage of some of the new enchantments, as every other class has be able to do.

Thank you for taking the time to read, and if you want to spend more time on TR class and make other trees and paragon useful please check our compiled suggestions in old thread here.

@terramak
@dreadnaught#5263
@chaidrin#2320
@nitocris83
@asterdahl
@mimicking#6533
Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
She Looked Lvl 18

Here is my Blog
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Comments

  • archangelzorak01archangelzorak01 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 324 Arc User
    This thread is beetle approved.
    Neverwinter Module 6: The only MMO expansion in the history of MMO's to remove more content than it added.


  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,665 Arc User
    Gloaming is a paragon power. Please don't push WK further down. I would rather see Blade Flurry switched from psuedo charges to a short cooldown to make it more viable. Or at least give it actual charges instead of a timer before becoming locked out.

    CW and - adjusting for their own issues -
    SW both have AoE capability without having at wills for it (discounting Storm Pillar, 3rd cast Chilling Cloud)
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    A suggestion for blade flurry, is to double the speed and amount you can spam it before it goes on cooldown, allowing you to quickly ramp up the AoE damage in a short sitting. It's too damn slow atm. It's called one of the TR's better AoE encounters, but it still doesn't compete worth the HAMSTER vs other classes.
  • sirjimbofrancissirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    pitshade said:

    Gloaming is a paragon power. Please don't push WK further down. I would rather see Blade Flurry switched from psuedo charges to a short cooldown to make it more viable. Or at least give it actual charges instead of a timer before becoming locked out.



    CW and - adjusting for their own issues -

    SW both have AoE capability without having at wills for it (discounting Storm Pillar, 3rd cast Chilling Cloud)

    TRs have a bunch of problems right now. I agree that the WKs need attention. But, they need some extensive attention that probably takes more than three changes. Scoundrel needs work, too. So does a ton of stuff for TRs (see original thread). This was my attempt to come up with the three changes that are likely to help the whole class the most. It is not intended, nor would the result be, WK getting any worse than they are now. The changes in stealth alone will help them.

    It's really tough to pick 3 things when we have so much that needs attention. But, that is the hand the devs have given us. I can tell you this, and I can only speak for myself, but if I would have know we'd have the rug pulled out from under us regarding our class being "the next to be rebalanced", I never would have spent all that time on the other thread. I'd be willing to bet that the others involved probably feel the same way.

    But, here we are. We can lament our position (again), or try to make the best out of what we can. I feel the changes I suggest are probably the most we could hope for and would result in the most positive for our whole class.
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,665 Arc User
    Buffing TR by making an MI power mandatory is a defacto nerf to WK. Even if that doesn't sway you, understand that with the DC rework, the Devs explicitly stated that they didn't want to buff one paragon to be unquestionably better than the other.

    The problem that WK has is that their class features can't compare to MI ones. WK at will is far superior and encounter is worse and of course that knocks them out id Press the advantage. Dailies are equally bad, worthless in PVE. What makes the paragon seem so bad is that it is the lesser path of a class that already underperforms. Buff and repair TR as a whole and WK can be made to work with just some additional tweaks.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • blur#5900 blur Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    We are all for making every combination of Paragon and Tree useful and competitive for TR's but it has been around 5 months since we started working on suggestions for first thread and nothing has been done. Nobody knows how many months more will pass until something is actually done about TR.

    I agree that making MI's more useful is making WK's more useless but WK's need more attention just to bring them on par with MI's. I am not sure about WK's arsenal for aoe fights but i guess they have to be in melee range to fight aoe, since their paragon powers dont give any aoe ability(correct me if i am wrong). WK's ranged style doesnt work for PvE, similar why Archery HR's dont work, they are out of range of the buffs.

    Giving Gloaming Cut aoe-ish damage area like WMS will barely make any difference. The animation is slow, its inferior to WoB, Smoke bomb, Dazing strike and Blade Flurry. It will basically be used only once, when your AP is not full and when your encounters are on cooldown. It is nothing WK's have to worry about that will set them back even more.

    Increasing base damage of Path of the Blade is a better pick for the 3rd option and would help both paragons. Making Smoke bomb and Path of the Blade work with enchantments other than Vorpal (PotB doesnt work with Vorpal either) would increase our chances in aoe fights.

    If they can and are willing to adjust every paragon and tree i am up for it.
    image
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,665 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    WK's main ranged buff is Dagger Threat but that is short range, 20' IIRC. Class feature extends the range but who knows if it works? Either way, WK is just as reliant in DF* as MI and shouldn't be that far away. It is more akin to a combat HR using Longstrider, purely situational.

    *I freely admit to not being technical/tester. My WK uses DF and Disheartening. If not for DF I don't think I could scratch big level 73 mobs like Maws. It may be that CoS would be better than Disheartening but it seems farfetched.

    Speaking of not being technical, how bad is Blitz? I notice it not being mentioned at all. I use it on WK because of Dagger Threat. MI uses Blade Flurry.
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    morenthar said:

    Useless across the board and most that still cling to it aren't even playing the class to the best of its ability.

    I have to agree with this even though I prefer WK. But w/e, I do what I want. I'd be a very different player if I were remotely competitive.
    blur#5900 said:

    WK's ranged style doesnt work for PvE, similar why Archery HR's dont work, they are out of range of the buffs.

    You can't be *that* far away as a WK. You don't have the range of an archer (not even the range of a CW), nor do you lose much in the way of personal buffs by being "too close" to enemies. To be most effective as WK, you need to be in melee a lot regardless. You're super-gimped if you try to go fully ranged.
    Guild Leader - The Lords of Light

    Neverwinter Census 2017

    All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
  • blur#5900 blur Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    Yeah i wasnt really measuring the distance lol. My point is, WK's have ranged abilities which arent the best option for PvE and if they are going melee, which they should, especially for aoe fights, they can as well be MI's because nothing which WK's have is really an advantage over MI's in PvE. With loadouts now it shouldnt be a problem.

    Archery is non-existent since buffs require you to be close while Archer tree requires you to be away, far away. CW's are more ranged than WK's indeed but even they are fighting melee if they want to maximize damage. Ranged companions are not that far away from target either and yet they miss buffs quite often.

    I would like if buffs would cover a much wider area so ranged fight styles and ranged companions are more usable but currently we are forced to go melee and in melee there is no reason to pick WK over MI.

    About Blitz, its bad. It cant compete with Smoke, Dazing and Blade Flurry. I bet it underperforms even with Dagger threat and its used mainly because its ranged compared to SB, DS and BF. We suggested for Blitz to additionally grant damage buff which could make it replace one of the encounters but for now it is just a suggestion like all others that were listed.
    image
  • pitshadepitshade Member Posts: 5,665 Arc User
    I stubbornly cling to WK on my second TR so that she isn't a straight up clone of my MI. There isn't any belief that it is competitive but I also don't believe that the class should be balanced only for min maxers. YMMV
    "We have always been at war with Dread Vault" ~ Little Brother
  • rustlordrustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    @pitshade I freely admit to being a mad scientist build tester, since forever ago that they introduced WK. With all my love for it, and time spent running it to the "best" of its potential (@morenthar I'm looking at ya :))...

    WK has nothing remotely on par with MI in either PvE or PvP. It had brief shining moments, mod 5ish DHS and 11 Razor Action, both subsequently nerfed. Maybe, just maybe, if Razor now shares a bug with SoD piercing double dip... but at the moment I'm more interested in testing my PvE sabo, non-crit non-DF Bloodbath build. Still MI, sad to say.
  • btairbornebtairborne Member Posts: 352 Arc User


    TRs only have a few AOE attacks that are viable at endgame content: smoke bomb and blade Flurry.

    Oh really? Why do you say that? Dazing Strike and Blitz work great.

    My usual rotation is stealthed Dazing Strike, followed up by a Stealth Strike and then stealthed Smoke Bomb, or the reverse if I don't have a cluster of enemies yet. It's a fantastic roatation, much better than I can find with anything using Blade Furry.
    I can also drop Stealth Strike and use Blitz.
  • micky1p00micky1p00 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,594 Arc User
    edited August 2017


    TRs only have a few AOE attacks that are viable at endgame content: smoke bomb and blade Flurry.

    Oh really? Why do you say that? Dazing Strike and Blitz work great.

    My usual rotation is stealthed Dazing Strike, followed up by a Stealth Strike and then stealthed Smoke Bomb, or the reverse if I don't have a cluster of enemies yet. It's a fantastic roatation, much better than I can find with anything using Blade Furry.
    I can also drop Stealth Strike and use Blitz.
    In SP ?

    And at 100% crit chance why to use stealth smoke? The slow helps ?
  • araxelvenaraxelven Member Posts: 72 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    Great suggestions, and I particulary approve of making DF more consistant and revamping Stealth.

    I don't know for other TRs, but I've had some awful experiences while trying to run mSP.

    Every single boss has mechanics that either make him invulnerable for a time or constantly interrupt our rotations, which makes DF bleeds and SoD really hard to stack. I'm all for harder dungeons and more interesting strategies, but the path they've taken with mSP makes it really hard for TRs as they currently are and I'm afraid that To9G will be the same. Any TR revamp needs to allow us to bypass that to remain relevant in thes game. mSVA would be an example of the reverse, where it's much easier for a boss-killer TR to shine.
  • ravenskyaravenskya Member Posts: 1,891 Arc User
    @sirjimbofrancis

    Just wanted to say thanks to you and the rest of the people who worked to put this together. Even though the devs clearly plan to ignore it. My poor WK will still hang out just for the fun of it, but I gave up trying to keep her competitive for end game.
    Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold"
    Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
    Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP

  • sirjimbofrancissirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    ravenskya said:

    @sirjimbofrancis

    Just wanted to say thanks to you and the rest of the people who worked to put this together. Even though the devs clearly plan to ignore it. My poor WK will still hang out just for the fun of it, but I gave up trying to keep her competitive for end game.

    Thank you! Maybe they'll come through, this time.
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
  • btairbornebtairborne Member Posts: 352 Arc User
    @sirjimbofrancis

    It seems to me adding 10 stacks of bleed right off the bat would be too powerful. Now I am not BIS, but my bleeds can hit up to 121k per tick with WOB. Also it takes 6 sec to apply the full stacks, does it not? Not exactly a "long time". Bleeds are now 30-40% of my damage. With that change, it might double. At any rate, TRs would get a HUGE dps boost, too much I would say.

    I will agree Duelist's Furry is a confusing mechanic to understand after taking a look at it.
  • btairbornebtairborne Member Posts: 352 Arc User
    micky1p00 said:


    TRs only have a few AOE attacks that are viable at endgame content: smoke bomb and blade Flurry.

    Oh really? Why do you say that? Dazing Strike and Blitz work great.

    My usual rotation is stealthed Dazing Strike, followed up by a Stealth Strike and then stealthed Smoke Bomb, or the reverse if I don't have a cluster of enemies yet. It's a fantastic roatation, much better than I can find with anything using Blade Furry.
    I can also drop Stealth Strike and use Blitz.
    In SP ?

    And at 100% crit chance why to use stealth smoke? The slow helps ?
    I'm a power stacker not crit build, and perhaps elaborate?
  • blur#5900 blur Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    @btairborne All stacks applied from one DF wouldnt make our bleeds more powerful, it would make them available sooner. Instead 6+ secs of stacking bleeds you would do it in 3 seconds. Ticks are powerful indeed, can tick few millions but thats irrelevant imo.
    We asked for that change because there are more and more bosses which are very mobile and stacking bleeds on them is a pain since you might never be able to apply all 10 in rare cases.

    Bleeds and SoD should be close to each other now when it comes to damage %. Edit: nvm this %, SoD is changed.
    Post edited by blur#5900 on
    image
  • sirjimbofrancissirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User

    @sirjimbofrancis

    It seems to me adding 10 stacks of bleed right off the bat would be too powerful. Now I am not BIS, but my bleeds can hit up to 121k per tick with WOB. Also it takes 6 sec to apply the full stacks, does it not? Not exactly a "long time". Bleeds are now 30-40% of my damage. With that change, it might double. At any rate, TRs would get a HUGE dps boost, too much I would say.

    I will agree Duelist's Furry is a confusing mechanic to understand after taking a look at it.

    Actually, it usually takes 3 full rotations of DF to apply a full bleed stack. We're saying apply them all at once.

    It would give us more damage up front, rather like literally every other DPS class.
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
  • sirjimbofrancissirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    @rgutscheradev
    @NITOCRIS83

    Any update on anything? Did y'all get this thread? Do we have anything to look forward to in the near future?
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
  • armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    Full bleed stacks with 1 rotation is definitely the way to go.
    Please Do Not Feed The Trolls

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    Zohar De Armadeon: TR
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  • blur#5900 blur Member Posts: 490 Arc User
    @talon1970 You described perfectly how most of PvE TR's (probably many PvP TR's as well) feel. Lack of communication between players and devs is beyond irritating. As @sirjimbofrancis already said, we put a lot of effort just making the suggestions to make things easier for devs, more effort than we ever planned and yet we cant get a clear answer from devs regarding our class.
    Yes we are working on TR/ We have something planned for TR/No we have nothing planned for TR and we are not working on it. Its probably the last option but they cant let us know because it would mean no new Tesla Car for the one who calls the shots.

    I can tell from my own experience that nothing has been done about TR for too long. I joined 2 weeks after Underdark went live so i play a bit less than 2 years. Nothing has been done in that time, N.O.T.H.I.N.G. I struggled from the start and needed help too many times because i couldnt solo things while leveling, but i was like, Hey, i am still new, maybe i dont know the class enough... , turns out, after all this time playing only with TR and learning the class as much as possible, nothing has changed. I made a new TR toon, among all other classes and leveled them all to 70. Even with all knowledge and experience with TR i am still struggling compared to other classes which i have no clue about, except maybe SW, class is now as bad as TR, if not worse because no Stealth and shift ability is inferior to dodge.

    I dont know if anyone from the devs actually plays a TR and compares it to any other DPS class. Probably not. Situation would not be like this if they were playing it. I dont know who calls the shots but if it takes 2 years or more to do something about a problem which affects many customers then, i dont want to tell you how to do your job but you are doing it wrong.

    That is my experience and im playing less than 2 years while many other play much longer, almost twice as long as i play. TR is as is, since mod5(?) and that is long time ago. Since that time you have been testing the patience of TR players and playing the game "How many hits a TR can take before it is enough?".
    image
  • archangelzorak01archangelzorak01 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 324 Arc User
    edited August 2017
    Pretty sure I speak for everyone here when I say, "All we want is a response."

    We just want to at least know we're not talking to empty air, that there is someone on the other end reading and considering our input.

    Just a yellow name saying, "I exist, I can read and I am reading this."
    Neverwinter Module 6: The only MMO expansion in the history of MMO's to remove more content than it added.


  • ravenskyaravenskya Member Posts: 1,891 Arc User
    armadeonx said:



    I actually think the TR should be modelled on the Combat HR, with Stealth mechanics replacing the stance switching for mechanic triggers.

    I have played a dual wield rogue in every game that had one available. My original character in NW was a TR:WK

    Out of frustration I put her on the shelf.

    I am now building a combat ranger because that at least feels like the character I want to play. I'm not a huge fan of the "Druid Rouge" but it feels like what a dual wield rogue should fee like. Fast, squishy, does mad damage, has an aoe. (I'd rather the aoe be a fire flask on the floor but I'll deal with the roots)

    If I could trade the "swap to bow" button for the TR's stealth - I would have the character I wanted my TR to be.
    Founding Member of "Wrong Side of the Stronghold"
    Ravenskya - TR / Krisha Chaos - OP / Waffles - GF / Dex Domitor - HR
    Becky the trendy GWF - GWF / Too Toasty - SW / Falcor - DC / Morrigan - CW / Sir Didymus - OP

  • sirjimbofrancissirjimbofrancis Member Posts: 348 Arc User
    edited August 2017

    Pretty sure I speak for everyone here when I say, "All we want is a response."

    We just want to at least know we're not talking to empty air, that there is someone on the other end reading and considering our input.

    Just a yellow name saying, "I exist, I can read and I am reading this."

    Yes.
    @nitocris83
    @rgutscheradev
    @asterdahl
    @mimicking#6533
    @terramak
    @dreadnaught#5263
    @chaidrin#2320
    @miasmat
    @noworries#8859

    *Edited to add any other devs I could find*
    Post edited by sirjimbofrancis on
    Lilia Drakon - PVE Executioner TR
    She Looked Lvl 18

    Here is my Blog
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