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'Message From The Neverwinter Management Team' - Questions.
jaegernl
Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 455 Arc User
So, earlier today we were blessed with a message from the management team, regarding the recent banwave:
Last week's banwave has caused quite a fuss in the community. Prominent members of the Neverwinter community and long-time players have been forcibly removed from said community. Some of them may have botted, some of them may have been collateral damage. The community out-cry over this has been large, both on the forums - where it has been quelched through immediate removal of the topics - and in game, where it has been the topic of discussion in many channels, where I've seldom encountered a message endorsing the recent move. I'm inclined to use a bit of hyperbole, and paraphrasing historians of the Stalinist Terror, that there has not been a single member of the community who hasn't seen one of their friends, guildies or familiar faces in a channel see disappear.
The above quoted message sounds to me like an admission of guilt or wrong-doing, albeit purposely worded not to sound like one. Certain members of the Neverwinter community have been unbanned - placed under probation, whatever that means - and that is prove in itself that the automated system of banning is flawed, regardless of the measures put in place to 'better identify individuals who are clearly violating those Terms of Service'.
Recently, we've had a massive increase in communication from the Development and Management team, for which I am very grateful. Especially the communication and feedback on the Preview forum has been listened to and - in some cases - implemented. It is all the more frustrating and disappointing that, on this recent move, the outcry has been met with deafening silence and draconian moderation on the forums.
And then we get to the final paragraph of the above quoted message:
'Dedicated players' has to be the vaguest term to come out of a marketing department yet. When does someone fall into that category? Hours played? Money spent? Far more importantly, however, is the implication that once you fall into that category, however it is defined, you basicly get a 'get out of jail free'-card. I play or spend a lot and I get to bot a little? Do you really consider that a reasonable road forward?
Of course, far more likely is that this phrasing, including the 'get out of jail free'-card is purposely chosen to make an apology without actually apologizing, of the level of 'I'm sorry you're offended'. The communication between developers and community, the game itself and the future were looking so bright. This, however, has been two steps backwards.
One of our main priorities for Neverwinter Online is to provide all of our players with a fair, fun, and enjoyable game experience at a consistent level. Unfortunately this experience is sometimes impacted by individuals violating our Terms of Service in order to gain an unfair advantage, thereby severely impairing the overall experience for the majority of our player base.This post will not contain questions or comments about individual bans. I do, however, have questions considering primarily the last paragraph and will include a warning.
Late last year, we implemented additional data collection features within the game, that allowed us to better identify individuals who are clearly violating those Terms of Service, and after extensive accumulation and investigation, have recently taken steps to remove or restrict some of these accounts. In the coming months, we’ll continue to monitor and review the incoming data and plan to actively increase our focus and commitment in maintaining a safe, secure and enjoyable environment for everyone.
While we stand behind our decision in this matter, we also want to be fair and keep up with the playstyle of our most dedicated players so some of those accounts affected by the recent bans will be released on a probationary status and monitored. For others, appeals can still be made to Customer Support which will be reviewed on a case by case basis.
-Neverwinter Management Team
Last week's banwave has caused quite a fuss in the community. Prominent members of the Neverwinter community and long-time players have been forcibly removed from said community. Some of them may have botted, some of them may have been collateral damage. The community out-cry over this has been large, both on the forums - where it has been quelched through immediate removal of the topics - and in game, where it has been the topic of discussion in many channels, where I've seldom encountered a message endorsing the recent move. I'm inclined to use a bit of hyperbole, and paraphrasing historians of the Stalinist Terror, that there has not been a single member of the community who hasn't seen one of their friends, guildies or familiar faces in a channel see disappear.
The above quoted message sounds to me like an admission of guilt or wrong-doing, albeit purposely worded not to sound like one. Certain members of the Neverwinter community have been unbanned - placed under probation, whatever that means - and that is prove in itself that the automated system of banning is flawed, regardless of the measures put in place to 'better identify individuals who are clearly violating those Terms of Service'.
Recently, we've had a massive increase in communication from the Development and Management team, for which I am very grateful. Especially the communication and feedback on the Preview forum has been listened to and - in some cases - implemented. It is all the more frustrating and disappointing that, on this recent move, the outcry has been met with deafening silence and draconian moderation on the forums.
And then we get to the final paragraph of the above quoted message:
While we stand behind our decision in this matter, we also want to be fair and keep up with the playstyle of our most dedicated players so some of those accounts affected by the recent bans will be released on a probationary status and monitored. For others, appeals can still be made to Customer Support which will be reviewed on a case by case basis.There's a couple of issues with this paragraph. Firstly, the internal logic - we stand behind our decision but are reversing it - is hilarious. Which is it? You can't have both. Secondly, what does 'probation' mean? Either someone commits a bannable offense, or they don't. And, lastly, the issue of 'dedicated players', which has inspired this post in the first place.
'Dedicated players' has to be the vaguest term to come out of a marketing department yet. When does someone fall into that category? Hours played? Money spent? Far more importantly, however, is the implication that once you fall into that category, however it is defined, you basicly get a 'get out of jail free'-card. I play or spend a lot and I get to bot a little? Do you really consider that a reasonable road forward?
Of course, far more likely is that this phrasing, including the 'get out of jail free'-card is purposely chosen to make an apology without actually apologizing, of the level of 'I'm sorry you're offended'. The communication between developers and community, the game itself and the future were looking so bright. This, however, has been two steps backwards.
Isaac the Adequate - Level 70 Oath of Protection Paladin
Aurelius the Awkward - Level 70 Pathfinder Ranger
We have looked into reports of players experiencing connection problems and have been unable to identify any server, data center, or client-side issues. We believe this may be ISP related.
Post edited by zebular on
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Comments
Those that currently have an unpalatable playstyle to Cryptic but are classed as dedicated are to be placed under a probabtionary period?
We're sorry you were banned but if you meet X criteria you will be placed under a probationary period.
What is the probationary period, how do you meet X criteria and what limitations are placed on a player placed under a probationary period? What actions are no longer acceptable that now warrant access to the game reomoved or limited?
Sounds like they have X accounts that has a playstyle that could be seen as botting. But they are not 100% sure so they unban them and will keep an eye on them. It has nothing to do with p2w.
"dedicated players" = Players that do boring tasks for hours every day. So boring so that its questionable if they are in fact humans doing it. These players should get a medal, not a ban. :P
The ones that didnt get an unban probably looks even MORE like a bot and therefor will get investigated closer before a ban is possible lifted. Maybe they are doing the same stuff but on more chars, longer hours, less breaks etc.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Further though, even if you don't actually look like a bot while you do this stuff... I'm pretty sure I don't simply because I'm erratic and make a lot of mistakes... the fact that so many dull and repetitive actions are practically a requirement of engaging with their systems means those systems very much encourage automation. Because to utilize them, you do need to act like a good little automaton droid even if you're not one.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
It is the way the have chosen to implement character progression and how they monetize it that creates the grind. Or, more to the point, they tied character progression (via campaigns and resource acquisition) to company designed, repetitive, soul-numbing tasks and then they punish their customers for playing the game as designed (regardless of the TOS).
And, of course, they did this b/c they found the only way to make this game economically viable for them is to exploit the narcissistic power fantasies of a few whales. So you get what we got.
Unfortunately, I don't expect this post to last long due to above mentioned draconian moderation.
I was merely pointing out that their banfilter a hilariously smaller regard for their content than the players do.
Just remember, ignorance is strength.
We have legitimate concerns, I'd like as many of them to be heard as possible.
I wonder if I'm on probation right now... After all I've not done anything wrong, so I definitely should be.
Pardon my sarcasm but I really found this entire situation offensive.
THE REAL question is , right now, ARE you confident enough to spend money? How can we be? Next week, maybe "our " activities might appear to be botting ones, and "we" will be the ones banned.
We choose where to spend our time and money.
This level of draconian and totalitarianism is beyond measure.
When players speak out.. that A. WOAH there nellie, there appears to be a problem with your filters again.
They should CHECK first to make sure that this is the case.. not just remove all threads.
Player feedback is more important then every letter of the law on their TOS, TOS means <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> when you compare it to customer satisfaction..
Im sure most of us are not happy with any of this, but the company continues to deal with issues completely wrong.
PLAYERS should have a FAIR system in place,
PLAYERS should feel like they have a place to post feedback.
THAT we know what we should or shouldn't do in terms of bans.
I think you would be better off tracking things manually , then using these filters. I am not at all opposed to removing botters, I am opposed to you using these corny auto filters, that have been proven over and over.. to fail.
The burden of proof always seems to be on the player with this game although the devs have repeatedly misfired in these ban waves (3rd time on a big scale, countless times in isolated cases). As soon as the devs realized they had messed up, they should have reverted all bans and manually verified all account again. Then re-ban the real botters. It's essentially what they are doing right now, but with a "guilty till dedicated" approach. Now in some cases players have to wait until next week until the dusk settles. Might be 10+ banned days for nothing... slow clap.
We understand players would like to discuss certain topics so we're letting this thread stand. Moderators have been informed to keep an eye on the conversation to ensure it remains constructive and civil and reserve the right to close or remove this thread if warranted.
Personal CM Note: As a CM, conversations and feedback are incredibly valuable so I look forward to continue reading your comments (And yes, I have been lurking outside these forums as well to read up on what you guys have to say). Which means that, if frustration levels are high, you can message me privately but keep attacks or profanity off this thread so it can remain.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
Pretty much this. Doesn't speak of much confidence if you need the weekend as barrier between you and your customers.
It's also been mentioned elsewhere. But as soon as a mistake was discovered, they should have unbanned everyone and then gone through and re-banned after manual review on a one-by-one basis. They are going through almost all of the accounts anyway...
Is it better to accidentally let a botter stay free for a weekend or to accidentally deprive an innocent player of a weekend of gaming?
Outside of a major runaway exploit, a couple days of botting behavior probably won't ruin the economy or cause any real players significant harm. But taking away an excited fan's weekend gaming sessions? Having them feel cheated out of VIP keys? Having folks feel betrayed and lied to due to boilerplate CS responses?
It's not only that it undermines trust and hurts the community relationship, but it also misses an opportunity to build on that trust with more honest communication and policies that aim to prevent accidentally punishing innocents.
Pretty much this. Doesn't speak of much confidence if you need the weekend as barrier between you and your customers.
I've seen many folks mention this exact argument from friends to channels I frequent.
Thats not good enough this time. If you cant answer our question then you need to get someone who can.
You wrote:
"Unfortunately this experience is sometimes impacted by individuals violating our Terms of Service in order to gain an unfair advantage, thereby severely impairing the overall experience for the majority of our player base."
How does banning innocent guild mates and other friends protect our experience? Its not just a few players being affected, these actions starts a domino effect. A friend gets banned for no reason other than doing repeatable tasks everyday that makes anyone look like a bot if done enough times, then some of hes friends might quit because lets face it, the game is no fun without your friends. Leaders get banned, guilds are left leaderless and so on.
--
You wrote:
"Late last year, we implemented additional data collection features within the game, that allowed us to better identify individuals who are clearly violating those Terms of Service"
Clearly? How is any of this clear? Its quite the opposite of clear.
--
You wrote:
"and after extensive accumulation and investigation, have recently taken steps to remove or restrict some of these accounts."
Im sorry, but how extensive could it have been? And how will you proceed in the future? Clearly your investigations wasn't enough this time or the time before. Do I need to worry that next time it might be me? Do I need to start recording, logging and taking notes so that I, one day can defend myself? Because it seems that you might not get unbanned unless you can explain yourself and your actions. But again, there are no answers so we have no idea.
--
You wrote:
"In the coming months, we’ll continue to monitor and review the incoming data and plan to actively increase our focus and commitment in maintaining a safe, secure and enjoyable environment for everyone."
Safe? Secure? enjoyable environment? You actions has the exact opposite effect. Im not feeling safe nor secure and I certainty dont feel that this hostile environment is enjoyable. I feel like big brother is watching my every move. I feel that if I do something to many times or for to long I get flagged and I will get hunted down without certain proof and its gonna be my word against big brothers word and I dont even know what I did wrong because there are no answers.
You wrote:
While we stand behind our decision in this matter, we also want to be fair and keep up with the playstyle of our most dedicated players so some of those accounts affected by the recent bans will be released on a probationary status and monitored.
First of all, this decision is one of the worst of the history of Neverwinter. Its extremely shady and unfair.
How is any of this fair? You banned innocent players. You said that already since you unbanned some. I have friends who got unbanned and I have friends who are still banned and have to wait over a week. Lost playtime. Lost VIP keys. New mod and new opportunities are missed. Masterwork for example. You fall behind with dailies, gear etc. How is any of this fair in your eyes?
And lets talk about how you call some of the players for cheaters. That has an impact. There is a legit community for example. You think the players who got banned feel like they can be trusted now? They will now be questioned. You might have turned a whole community against these innocent players. They might be kicked from guilds. They might lose friends. Do you still think you are being fair?
Also I know your a messenger. But if you dont stand behind the message, you should not spread it. Youre the face of Cryptic. You are the messenger and if you deliver news worded like this, you deserve some of the heat.
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
> I really agree with this loboguild and vida44. It's frustrating and demonstrates poor customer priorities.
>
> It's also been mentioned elsewhere. But as soon as a mistake was discovered, they should have unbanned everyone and then gone through and re-banned after manual review on a one-by-one basis. They are going through almost all of the accounts anyway...
>
> Is it better to accidentally let a botter stay free for a weekend or to accidentally deprive an innocent player of a weekend of gaming?
>
> Outside of a major runaway exploit, a couple days of botting behavior probably won't ruin the economy or cause any real players significant harm. But taking away an excited fan's weekend gaming sessions? Having them feel cheated out of VIP keys? Having folks feel betrayed and lied to due to boilerplate CS responses?
>
> It's not only that it undermines trust and hurts the community relationship, but it also misses an opportunity to build on that trust with more honest communication and policies that aim to prevent accidentally punishing innocents.
They cant do that. Part of the reason for a ban isnt just to lock out access to accounts. But to lock out access to money and loot on that account. That does more harm to the gold sellers then the loss of the accounts themselves. If you temporarily unbanned them to do further checks. You basically give them a free window to move all their cash, loot, or what have you. To another safe account.