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'Message From The Neverwinter Management Team' - Questions.

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    loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    I do believe the vast majority of bans are extremely likely to be accurate. Nobody is going to go on the forums and say "good job you caught me!" They are either going to go into obscurity or claim innocence. Those with friends, though, are very likely to claim innocence out of shame if nothing else.

    I'm mildly amused where this trust might be coming from other than being naive. At this point the likelihood that the devs got it right is just not there. And the reason for that is not only the last two weeks, but a still growing history of mess-ups. I don't care how many valid bans this ban wave featured by the way. The amount of innocents caught was just too freaking high. Oh I'm sorry, I meant to say the amount of botters released on probation. That statement alone is so laughable that you should challenge anything that comes through official channels.

    Oh and by the way: It's very reasonable to assume that the number of unreported cases of unjustified bans is way higher than this thread is able to represent. Most people stay silent to not get labeled exploiters and hope they get released, others never come to this forum because they know they can't post about it. In many cases not the banned players themselves, but guild members actively vouched for them, because they were afraid to bring up their case publicly.

    A full alliance has been bashed because they were brave enough to report it, apparently members left guilds either because they returned from the ban and couldn't stand the accusations or they didn't want to be connected to botting in a guild that rightfully kept returning players. Sadly, a statement like yours does actually contribute to the community fighting itself, because it does not accurately represent the incident.​​
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    ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited May 2017
    loboguild said:

    I'm mildly amused where this trust might be coming from other than being naive.

    It is logic, an understanding of statistics, an understanding of behavioral patterns and a knowledge of MMO's and the mass bans they have.

    The only reactions you and everybody else are seeing is from actual players whether it is in game, on the forums or on fan sites. Those players may or may not have cheated but those are not the majority of the bans that were issued.
    Actual bots do not complain when they are banned.

    The majority of bans issued in mass bans are against Gold Farming Website Accounts. Complaints are normal. Claims of innocence are normal. Those are the vocal minority which I can not claim to know guilt or innocence and I am not going to debate that as that is between Cryptic and them at this point.

    Those voicing grievances and appealing in any way are the vocal minority. The majority are the actual targets: accounts controlled by gold farming websites.

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    jumpingmorksjumpingmorks Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 876 Arc User
    We have established there is a vocal minority.

    Here is an example of a silent minority:

    https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/profile/nitocris83

    My voice may be loud, and it is not an altruistic attempt to claim a higher ground of morality in this matter. I want to be confident that I will not be randomly deemed by a poorly written filter that I am an automated script or an active cheater the next time a ban wave hits.

    I am also aware that just because many remain silent on the matter they do have similar worries that I do. In my selfish endeavour to ensure that I can continue to play a game I enjoy playing, I hope that my feedback will result in happier customers in the future.

    Happier customers spend more money, more money better content. Cryptic wins, I win and like it or loathe it, maybe my voice may improve the customer experience of others who also enjoy the game.

    It doesn't have to be a win / lose scenario in which players pitch themselves against the company and vice versa, we can all win here, all it takes is the will to adopt that mentality.
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    ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited May 2017
    Jumpingmorks, the majority of every kind agree with you. No moderator is arguing that.
    We all get the fear that innocent people were caught in the bans.

    I am saying the silent majority of those actually banned are not expressing any complaints anywhere because they are not actual players. They are Gold Farmers. :)

    So to clarify,
    The Silent Majority - Bots banned
    The Vocal Minority - Players banned (guilty or not)
    The Majority - Afraid they'll be banned next
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    jumpingmorksjumpingmorks Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 876 Arc User

    Jumpingmorks, the majority of every kind agree with you. No moderator is arguing that.
    We all get the fear that innocent people were caught in the bans.

    I am saying the silent majority of those actually banned are not expressing any complaints anywhere because they are not actual players. They are Gold Farmers. :)

    So to clarify,
    The Silent Majority - Bots banned
    The Vocal Minority - Players banned (guilty or not)
    The Majority - Afraid they'll be banned next

    It's good to see where we agree, because then it makes clarifying where we disagree far easier.

    I am REALLY glad to see cheaters and those with criminal intention banned. But I am sure there is a wiki page on this, most people do not complain, especially resturants. It takes a particularly brave person to complain about food in a resturant. Most walk away and never go back.

    Every legitimate player banned is a potential customer you will never see again. Banning legitimate players negatively affects a companies revenue directly, it indirectly affects a companies revenune indirectly from word of mouth. The bot makers and criminals, they don't care either way, they will adapt and come back with other methods, but any paying customers you lose stay lost.
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    loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    @ambisinisterr The only group we should care about and are subject of this thread and all the complaints are those you refer to as "vocal minority". With your clever wording (majority/minority) you make it sound like it's not a big thing when the absolute opposite is the case. Again: Nobody cares about Chinese farmers and how much of those got banned, the important thing is how many legits got banned although they shouldn't have been. And sorry to correct you once more. It's no "fear that innocents were caught", it's long proven. Stay with the facts and don't be part of the cover-up please. And please don't ask to provide proof because you know damn well that we can't provide them under the rules around here.​​
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    kzone#2148 kzone Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    greywynd said:

    loboguild said:


    Transparency is the main problem here. As long as they play stupid, no wonder people shake their heads. They have all the tools to clear up this mess, they just have to use them.
    ​​

    No, they really don't. They made a decision that impacted their business based on internal criteria. Full stop. They made a business decision. The only people they have to answer to are the people above them.

    IF they answer some of the players concerns, good, but they are under zero obligation to do so.
    Are you serious? When you accept payment for services and such, you are under an obligation to provide it. If that were not the case, there would be nothing to stop a company from selling you something, taking your money and never providing what you paid for. Call it at 100% profit scenario. Despite what you think they do have an obligation to their customers.
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    kzone#2148 kzone Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    loboguild said:

    @ambisinisterr The only group we should care about and are subject of this thread and all the complaints are those you refer to as "vocal minority". With your clever wording (majority/minority) you make it sound like it's not a big thing when the absolute opposite is the case. Again: Nobody cares about Chinese farmers and how much of those got banned, the important thing is how many legits got banned although they shouldn't have been. And sorry to correct you once more. It's no "fear that innocents were caught", it's long proven. Stay with the facts and don't be part of the cover-up please. And please don't ask to provide proof because you know damn well that we can't provide them under the rules around here.​​

    It's also impossible to prove you never botted.

    Sadly, I don't think they have proof that anyone botted. If they did, this situation wouldn't have occurred. Clearly they are using heuristics to flag patterns of usage as botting. Unfortunately, in a game that was arguably designed for bots, anyone but the most casual of users can fall into that pattern depending on how wide they set their net. Make no mistake, such a methodology will always catch innocents.
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    ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited May 2017

    I am REALLY glad to see cheaters and those with criminal intention banned. But I am sure there is a wiki page on this, most people do not complain, especially resturants. It takes a particularly brave person to complain about food in a resturant. Most walk away and never go back.

    Every legitimate player banned is a potential customer you will never see again. Banning legitimate players negatively affects a companies revenue directly, it indirectly affects a companies revenune indirectly from word of mouth. The bot makers and criminals, they don't care either way, they will adapt and come back with other methods, but any paying customers you lose stay lost.

    The opposite is true for video games and their forums, actually. Normally the people on the forums are there to voice complaints/concerns while those that are content are playing the game. Forums tend to be a bit on the negative side due to this.

    That said, in this case I don't think that is relevant anyway. Those on the forums and those in the game are very much on the same page and there is no silent majority of happy players in the game. I have no doubt about that.

    What I am saying is that the gold farmers are not going to say anything at all. You have to weigh them into whatever extrapolation you make about the small amount of people actually saying anything. People saying they were banned and people saying their friends were banned are players. Even if they all did cheat in some way they do not make up even a small portion of the actual bots in the game.

    I am not going to argue whether the majority of players banned were innocent or not but it is illogical to not at least acknowledge a large amount of bans were done to gold farmers. More than likely the vast majority as they make up the majority of bots. I agree with you in every sense and I am not debating that people are angry or that every incorrect ban costs the company money. In fact I am trying to get the point across to the devs that the mere perception that people were banned incorrectly is costing them money. ;)

    I am stating that loboguild is incorrect for believing that most of the bans (all bans, not just of players) were of innocents by ignoring the bans against the actual targets which make up the vast amount of bots.

    Seriously, you're finding an argument when there is none. You don't have to convince me of anything. :)
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    armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    For me, the main concerns are:

    1. Things players are permitted to do can be flagged - e.g. running multiple alts
    2. Buying or selling on the AH when the person on the other end of the deal was an illegal trader - there's no way a buyer can know who they are buying from! (edit - apart from the possibility of recognising their name ofc...)
    3. These things come in waves and always cause a huge fuss - which means delays in reviewing cases due to the workload even when it's not done on a weekend...
    4. Experience says that Customer Service appear to work on the presumption of guilt when reviewing a complaint.
    5. Feedback is stifled, controlled or silenced.

    I bet a huge amount of botters were caught. The thing is none of the players believe the bots will be gone for long. However, offended innocent players are far less likely to come back. Also if the company reviews a ban and finds it was wrong they need to compensate the player for lost VIP keys and extra by way of apology

    Why is it not possible for these things to be done with intelligence and sensitivity? - and most of all, not rolling them out like a tsunami.
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    kzone#2148 kzone Member Posts: 19 Arc User

    I am not going to argue whether the majority of players banned were innocent or not but it is illogical to not at least acknowledge a large amount of bans were done to gold farmers. More than likely the vast majority. I agree with you in every sense and I am not debating you. I am stating that loboguild is incorrect for believing that most bans were incorrect by ignoring the bans against the actual targets.

    If that was truly their intention (to get the gold farmers), and I would think it should be pretty easy to tell a gold farmer from a player (for argument sake even a cheating player). Then they should have reacted a LOT quicker to get the "players" back in the game.

    As someone stated, every banned player is a lost client. A banned gold farmer will just create new accounts, maybe they lose some money, I don't know, but they will just create new bot armies. It's just a cost of doing business. A banned player on the other hand will be pissed off and probably never come back out of principle alone. Especially if the ban is permanent or takes 2 weeks to get unbanned.

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    urabaskurabask Member Posts: 2,923 Arc User

    Jumpingmorks, the majority of every kind agree with you. No moderator is arguing that.
    We all get the fear that innocent people were caught in the bans.

    I am saying the silent majority of those actually banned are not expressing any complaints anywhere because they are not actual players. They are Gold Farmers. :)

    So to clarify,
    The Silent Majority - Bots banned
    The Vocal Minority - Players banned (guilty or not)
    The Majority - Afraid they'll be banned next

    Framing it like this is problematic in the context of their previous ban waves. e.g. The winter event ban wave where they screwed up because they forgot how many toons accounts can open gifts on. The whole "guilty or not" should have the caveat "Guilty or not, we know Cryptic has been exceptionally incompetent before so there's a really good chance they're not guilty."

    Part of that silent majority also includes players who don't know how to appeal their ban, can't deal with PWE's terrible CS, or for whom this was the last straw they'll quit the game over. Personally I've gone to every effort to play the game legit and if my account was banned for "botting" ( <----air quotes dripping with sarcasm) I'd only appeal it to give my gear to my guildmates before I quit.

    I8r4ux9.jpg
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    loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    @ambisinisterr I guess what you're trying to say is that a few banned innocents are ok if a large amount of gold farmers got hit as well. This is a pitiful attitude to be honest, especially as community mod. I personally find it illogical to drag professional botters into the conversation just to make the numbers look good. That's exactly the type of smoke bomb that gets people upset. Are you a WH staffer? Tip-toeing around the topic like crazy without adding any meaningful information and losing oneself in semantics. Seriously?​​
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    jumpingmorksjumpingmorks Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 876 Arc User

    I am REALLY glad to see cheaters and those with criminal intention banned. But I am sure there is a wiki page on this, most people do not complain, especially resturants. It takes a particularly brave person to complain about food in a resturant. Most walk away and never go back.

    Every legitimate player banned is a potential customer you will never see again. Banning legitimate players negatively affects a companies revenue directly, it indirectly affects a companies revenune indirectly from word of mouth. The bot makers and criminals, they don't care either way, they will adapt and come back with other methods, but any paying customers you lose stay lost.

    The opposite is true for video games and their forums, actually. Normally the people on the forums are there to voice complaints/concerns while those that are content are playing the game. Forums tend to be a bit on the negative side due to this.

    That said, in this case I don't think that is relevant anyway. Those on the forums and those in the game are very much on the same page and there is no silent majority of happy players in the game. I have no doubt about that.

    What I am saying is that the gold farmers are not going to say anything at all. You have to weigh them into whatever extrapolation you make about the small amount of people actually saying anything. People saying they were banned and people saying their friends were banned are players. Even if they all did cheat in some way they do not make up even a small portion of the actual bots in the game.

    I am not going to argue whether the majority of players banned were innocent or not but it is illogical to not at least acknowledge a large amount of bans were done to gold farmers. More than likely the vast majority as they make up the majority of bots. I agree with you in every sense and I am not debating that people are angry or that every incorrect ban costs the company money. In fact I am trying to get the point across to the devs that the mere perception that people were banned incorrectly is costing them money. ;)

    I am stating that loboguild is incorrect for believing that most of the bans (all bans, not just of players) were of innocents by ignoring the bans against the actual targets which make up the vast amount of bots.

    Seriously, you're finding an argument when there is none. You don't have to convince me of anything. :)
    I agree the vast majority of bans were legitimately necessary. This was never an issue for me or others although no doubt there will be others who disagree.

    Where we differ in opinion I bleieve, is I disagree with the process that legitmate users lost access to a game they enjoy and/or invested time and/or real money. There are some players who still do not have access to a game they enjoy or at least enjoyed previously.

    From my perspective it appears that banning the bots and all that entails was the primary focus of this ban wave. It appears that little to no thought or planning was put into place regarding the players that might get falsely flagged.

    I reiterate, from my perspective.

    Customers are the people putting money into the company should have been the primary focus of any outcome regarding the banning of cheaters/criminals. Those using the bots or making them inversely cost the company money, it might stand to reason any focus on them and them alone would only cost the company money whatever outcome was achieved.

    Based on my perspective not enough was done to protect customers, can this process be improved on? If more was done on the company side than my perspective suggests, can the process of being banned, giving feedback and regaining access to your account be made simpler or more intuitive than it currently is for the customer?

    What may appear relatively straight forward for a technical savey company may not be quite so obvious for customers struggling to cope with the concept of emailing, a hyperbole argument purely given for illustrative reasons.

    What lessons can be learned to make any customers feel valued after they have been wrongly targeted by an automated filter to make them continue to feel valued.
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    loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    urabask wrote: »
    Framing it like this is problematic in the context of their previous ban waves. e.g. The winter event ban wave where they screwed up because they forgot how many toons accounts can open gifts on. The whole "guilty or not" should have the caveat "Guilty or not, we know Cryptic has been exceptionally incompetent before so there's a really good chance they're not guilty."

    Part of that silent majority also includes players who don't know how to appeal their ban, can't deal with PWE's terrible CS, or for whom this was the last straw they'll quit the game over. Personally I've gone to every effort to play the game legit and if my account was banned for "botting" ( <----air quotes dripping with sarcasm) I'd only appeal it to give my gear to my guildmates before I quit.

    Let's not forget the Resonator exploit where people got temporarily banned that had Resonators on the AH, but never participated in the actual exploit. Oops. CS back in the day acknowledged the error, but briefed players that sitting out the ban would be their best option because a manual investigation would likely take as long.​​
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    ambisinisterrambisinisterr Member, Neverwinter Moderator Posts: 10,462 Community Moderator
    edited May 2017
    loboguild said:

    @ambisinisterr I guess what you're trying to say is that a few banned innocents are ok if a large amount of gold farmers got hit as well. This is a pitiful attitude to be honest, especially as community mod. I personally find it illogical to drag professional botters into the conversation just to make the numbers look good. That's exactly the type of smoke bomb that gets people upset. Are you a WH staffer? Tip-toeing around the topic like crazy without adding any meaningful information and losing oneself in semantics. Seriously?​​

    I did not say that in any way. I am pointing out that the majority of the bans were very likely to have been of the Gold Farmers.

    I think any such mass bans should effect as few innocent players as possible while also acknowledging that no detection system is perfect.

    I am saying that you can not say the detection system caught more innocent players than bots when you don't acknowledge that the largest amount of the bots are not going to dispute the bans in any way.
    That doesn't mean the players that may or may not have been caught incorrectly don't have valid concerns. in fact I have said NOTHING other than they do.

    Lobo, you are twisting my words and confusing people. Please stop.
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    jumpingmorksjumpingmorks Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 876 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    Devil's Advocate

    Message from the Neverwinter Management Team
    One of our main priorities for Neverwinter Online is to provide all of our players with a fair, fun, and enjoyable game experience at a consistent level. Unfortunately this experience is sometimes impacted by individuals violating our Terms of Service in order to gain an unfair advantage, thereby severely impairing the overall experience for the majority of our player base.

    Late last year, we implemented additional data collection features within the game, that allowed us to better identify individuals who are clearly violating those Terms of Service, and after extensive accumulation and investigation, have recently taken steps to remove or restrict some of these accounts. In the coming months, we’ll continue to monitor and review the incoming data and plan to actively increase our focus and commitment in maintaining a safe, secure and enjoyable environment for everyone.

    While we stand behind our decision in this matter, we also want to be fair and keep up with the playstyle of our most dedicated players so some of those accounts affected by the recent bans will be released on a probationary status and monitored. For others, appeals can still be made to Customer Support which will be reviewed on a case by case basis.

    -Neverwinter Management Team


    The original thread posted here by Julia: https://www.arcgames.com/en/forums/neverwinter#/discussion/1231214/message-from-the-neverwinter-management-team

    It's a message from the Neverwinter Management Team. It wasn't written by Julia per se even if she was given the job of writing it, hopefully she wasn't just told to say it. And there has been no frenzied defence by the devs on this message or how everything has been unfolding.

    I've no idea who constitutes the management but if they are just watching their spreadsheets and decided to act in a certain manner based on those spreadsheets it would explain a lot.

    If this is the case it beggars belief why they hire staff and pay them a decent (I hope) wage who have trained, specialised and gained experience only to be told what to do. If the management team are just giving instructions based alone on their expertise then they are flushing money down the toilet. Why go to all the trouble of hiring intelligent and talented people to completely ignore them and just hand them a shopping list of instructions to carry out?

    Again, just pure specualtion based on the format and title of the original announcement. Maybe I read too much into it but I mention it as food for thought for anyone who might be willing to blame anyone with a title.

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    namelesshero347namelesshero347 Member Posts: 2,109 Arc User
    On the night of the bans, I didn't see anyone on my friends list come online at all in the few hours I played. I was like, "Where is everyone?". Then I come here and saw what happened. Now I see them coming back online. Good job cryptic. Why the mass reversals? Did you see the ZAX completely freeze up and took a HAMSTER?
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    bitt3rnightmar3bitt3rnightmar3 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 788 Arc User
    The irony is not lost on me that we should trust what are essentially bots to tell Cryptic about other bots. The people who issue the bans are relying on a program to do an automated function that should be done or assisted by an actual human, aren't they?

    If the human part of the process is missing truly then I feel that is a mistake and a disservice to humans no matter who does it.

    I sense that is part of why the feeling of inequity exists.
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    eoleeeolee Member Posts: 264 Arc User

    @bitt3rnightmar3,
    Bot users got affected, some hardcore players got affected.
    Majority players where not affected

    Only some were not safe from that and none of us know if we will be safe in the future.
    U want me to say, that some where not safe from game protection? And we are non of us safe from it?
    Best advice< don't use bots,< and security system will not bother you.


    Do any random player within game got banned? nop.
    Do majority players got banned? Nop.
    Thats mean game security script is not flawed.
    In order got get account suspended you need to get certain effect to trigger game security.

    And the ones, the famous NWO players who got banned, share common thing, it's multiple charcters/accounts.
    Thats mean game security system though that they where type 2 bots. And thats it.

    Game security didn't ban randomly< it's not like, uhh I am bored, lets ban x players... Security is software, and ban only when achieve some activities...

    SO most players, are safe< And only bot users are in bad situation....
    "Cause alternative facts are facts that aren't facts they're just facts you made up and call facts you cant just make up facts if the facts aren't facts they're alternative facts".
    Hey i can answer to two of your stated facts in here without an alternative fact:

    Do any random player within game got banned? yes.
    "Share common things, its multiple characters": two persons in my guild with 8 toons got banned. How is that multiple?

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    hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,183 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    eolee said:



    "Cause alternative facts are facts that aren't facts they're just facts you made up and call facts you cant just make up facts if the facts aren't facts they're alternative facts".
    Hey i can answer to two of your stated facts in here without an alternative fact:


    What the heck this whole part mean? Do u think by using word fact often make you cool or what?

    There are only 2 type facts.
    True and false one, now false fact = lies<.
    And there is no alternatives or what the >Fish< you try invent.



    eolee said:

    Do any random player within game got banned? yes.
    "Share common things, its multiple characters": two persons in my guild with 8 toons got banned. How is that multiple?

    Do you know what is random banning in first place?

    It's like shooting without looking<. And this ban wave where not like that.

    This anti bot system work similar to PC's antivirus system.. When software/programs behave normaly, Antivirus do nothing.
    When they start behave abnormal, or start doing what they should not do, eating Data</consuming way to much resources than normal, try change settings and etc.
    And only then anvirus intervene.

    So in oder get game security intervention you need to do something in first place. So it's not random banning.

    And if you still don't get how game securities work, well then check info via google.



    Now as for your guild members,.. Well as I wrote< banned players shared common thing, which is having multiple characters.
    And character = toon.

    Also I wrote that it's possible that players who had more than 2 characters/toons, can got banned due invocations, because there are bots uers who do only invocations.

    In my current alliance, where players who also where banned. Now they play game, because support services checked data, and unblocked accounts.. So don't pretend you or your guild are only one who got affected.
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    loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    I think what @asterotg and others said can't be understated. As much as I agree that you can't reveal what behavior you're looking for when searching for botters, players gotta need some guidance of what's allowed and what's not. More than that, these things should be specified in the ToS, because in the end that's the basis for bans. Are we really suggesting that players need to find out for themselves what's tolerated, probably because they get banned at some point for something they thought was ok?

    To give another pretty classic example: Multi accounting. The ToS do not state anything about this, yet we know from semi official statements that the tolerated amount of accounts is 2 per household/IP/whatever. Now you can say that this is common sense, but is it? In the end it's not forbidden in the ToS, hence it should be allowed to create as many accounts as you want. End of discussion.

    I don't care whether PWE is operating within legal terms, but this is not how democracy and a transparent system works, and people rightfully take offense. Imagine you're buying your favorite chocolate in a store and get arrested for it. You didn't know it was illegal and why did the store offer it in the first place anyway? That's pretty much what is happening here, pretty totalitarian.​​
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    damontar#5477 damontar Member Posts: 134 Arc User
    armadeonx said:

    For me, the main concerns are:

    1. Things players are permitted to do can be flagged - e.g. running multiple alts
    2. Buying or selling on the AH when the person on the other end of the deal was an illegal trader - there's no way a buyer can know who they are buying from! (edit - apart from the possibility of recognising their name ofc...)
    3. These things come in waves and always cause a huge fuss - which means delays in reviewing cases due to the workload even when it's not done on a weekend...
    4. Experience says that Customer Service appear to work on the presumption of guilt when reviewing a complaint.
    5. Feedback is stifled, controlled or silenced.

    I bet a huge amount of botters were caught. The thing is none of the players believe the bots will be gone for long. However, offended innocent players are far less likely to come back. Also if the company reviews a ban and finds it was wrong they need to compensate the player for lost VIP keys and extra by way of apology

    Why is it not possible for these things to be done with intelligence and sensitivity? - and most of all, not rolling them out like a tsunami.

    i am specifically replying to #1 and #2

    #1) > I myself Run Multiple alts to save AD for myself. I spend the AD in the Auction house for Prizes, Gifts ( friends hitting lvl 70 for the first time) and using the "AD" I was able to acquire to maintain my V.I.P. status when I am able to do so.

    Basically in doing this my account is being flagged? If that is indeed a fact then the Devs have "Thousands" of accounts flagged for this, and some of those might actually be innocent hardcore farmers, that do this very thing for Themselves and nobody else.

    #2) > So if someone where to actually buy a Potion, for lets say 20k AD, from a Legit Person. And that potion is a way to supply a Guild Dedicated Alt of the Guild Leader with AD for the sole purpose of buying Strongbox's of Power or to Fund a "pricey" Prize ( epic mount companion etc ) for their guild members. And that alt purchases said prize from someone in the auction house.... they can Be Flagged for this?? Just cause the possible Seller of an item was a goldseller?

    And the follow up question..

    Combine my questions from 1 and 2 and put them together...

    Example.. Guild Leader & officers Grind on all their toons a couple of dungeon runs skirmishes etc.. compile all the ad they earned and then decided that they are either going to supply the "Dedicated Alt" with ad to purchase stongbox's of power or they buy a "Item" from AH and use it for a prize for members for their hardwork in whatever achievement they deem appropriate for said prize..

    Does this cause them all to be "red flagged" and a possible target for banning??? If so then why bother having guilds if they cannot help one another with out fear of being banned..

    thank you in advance..
    very concerned Ps4 player....
  • Options
    armadeonxarmadeonx Member Posts: 4,952 Arc User

    armadeonx said:

    For me, the main concerns are:

    1. Things players are permitted to do can be flagged - e.g. running multiple alts
    2. Buying or selling on the AH when the person on the other end of the deal was an illegal trader - there's no way a buyer can know who they are buying from! (edit - apart from the possibility of recognising their name ofc...)
    3. These things come in waves and always cause a huge fuss - which means delays in reviewing cases due to the workload even when it's not done on a weekend...
    4. Experience says that Customer Service appear to work on the presumption of guilt when reviewing a complaint.
    5. Feedback is stifled, controlled or silenced.

    I bet a huge amount of botters were caught. The thing is none of the players believe the bots will be gone for long. However, offended innocent players are far less likely to come back. Also if the company reviews a ban and finds it was wrong they need to compensate the player for lost VIP keys and extra by way of apology

    Why is it not possible for these things to be done with intelligence and sensitivity? - and most of all, not rolling them out like a tsunami.

    i am specifically replying to #1 and #2

    #1) > I myself Run Multiple alts to save AD for myself. I spend the AD in the Auction house for Prizes, Gifts ( friends hitting lvl 70 for the first time) and using the "AD" I was able to acquire to maintain my V.I.P. status when I am able to do so.

    Basically in doing this my account is being flagged? If that is indeed a fact then the Devs have "Thousands" of accounts flagged for this, and some of those might actually be innocent hardcore farmers, that do this very thing for Themselves and nobody else.

    #2) > So if someone where to actually buy a Potion, for lets say 20k AD, from a Legit Person. And that potion is a way to supply a Guild Dedicated Alt of the Guild Leader with AD for the sole purpose of buying Strongbox's of Power or to Fund a "pricey" Prize ( epic mount companion etc ) for their guild members. And that alt purchases said prize from someone in the auction house.... they can Be Flagged for this?? Just cause the possible Seller of an item was a goldseller?

    And the follow up question..

    Combine my questions from 1 and 2 and put them together...

    Example.. Guild Leader & officers Grind on all their toons a couple of dungeon runs skirmishes etc.. compile all the ad they earned and then decided that they are either going to supply the "Dedicated Alt" with ad to purchase stongbox's of power or they buy a "Item" from AH and use it for a prize for members for their hardwork in whatever achievement they deem appropriate for said prize..

    Does this cause them all to be "red flagged" and a possible target for banning??? If so then why bother having guilds if they cannot help one another with out fear of being banned..

    thank you in advance..
    very concerned Ps4 player....
    Exactly so. Legitimate player activity but potential "botter/buyer" flags.
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  • Options
    damontar#5477 damontar Member Posts: 134 Arc User
    armadeonx said:

    armadeonx said:

    For me, the main concerns are:

    1. Things players are permitted to do can be flagged - e.g. running multiple alts
    2. Buying or selling on the AH when the person on the other end of the deal was an illegal trader - there's no way a buyer can know who they are buying from! (edit - apart from the possibility of recognising their name ofc...)
    3. These things come in waves and always cause a huge fuss - which means delays in reviewing cases due to the workload even when it's not done on a weekend...
    4. Experience says that Customer Service appear to work on the presumption of guilt when reviewing a complaint.
    5. Feedback is stifled, controlled or silenced.

    I bet a huge amount of botters were caught. The thing is none of the players believe the bots will be gone for long. However, offended innocent players are far less likely to come back. Also if the company reviews a ban and finds it was wrong they need to compensate the player for lost VIP keys and extra by way of apology

    Why is it not possible for these things to be done with intelligence and sensitivity? - and most of all, not rolling them out like a tsunami.

    i am specifically replying to #1 and #2

    #1) > I myself Run Multiple alts to save AD for myself. I spend the AD in the Auction house for Prizes, Gifts ( friends hitting lvl 70 for the first time) and using the "AD" I was able to acquire to maintain my V.I.P. status when I am able to do so.

    Basically in doing this my account is being flagged? If that is indeed a fact then the Devs have "Thousands" of accounts flagged for this, and some of those might actually be innocent hardcore farmers, that do this very thing for Themselves and nobody else.

    #2) > So if someone where to actually buy a Potion, for lets say 20k AD, from a Legit Person. And that potion is a way to supply a Guild Dedicated Alt of the Guild Leader with AD for the sole purpose of buying Strongbox's of Power or to Fund a "pricey" Prize ( epic mount companion etc ) for their guild members. And that alt purchases said prize from someone in the auction house.... they can Be Flagged for this?? Just cause the possible Seller of an item was a goldseller?

    And the follow up question..

    Combine my questions from 1 and 2 and put them together...

    Example.. Guild Leader & officers Grind on all their toons a couple of dungeon runs skirmishes etc.. compile all the ad they earned and then decided that they are either going to supply the "Dedicated Alt" with ad to purchase stongbox's of power or they buy a "Item" from AH and use it for a prize for members for their hardwork in whatever achievement they deem appropriate for said prize..

    Does this cause them all to be "red flagged" and a possible target for banning??? If so then why bother having guilds if they cannot help one another with out fear of being banned..

    thank you in advance..
    very concerned Ps4 player....
    Exactly so. Legitimate player activity but potential "botter/buyer" flags.
    That's just peachy.... basically we can get banned for just installing the game and playing.....

    Thank you for your feedback...
  • Options
    linoge63linoge63 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 373 Arc User
    edited May 2017
    How about this.
    The cryptic system detects a potential botter.
    This places them on a list.

    When crypic is ready to test this account a message appears on the screen in an official mode that requests communication with a live here and now crypic soul.
    A botter cannot hold a conversation, nor would a botter be able to team up and fight a few mobs togther.
    Sure, the afk thing would have to be considered becuase we all take breaks and respond to IRL activities.

    This would be a slow way to remove botting but it at least ensures those that are enjoying their game and playing it wont be treated otherwise.
  • Options
    loboguildloboguild Member Posts: 2,371 Arc User
    It's probably too much work for them. All you'll ever hear from the devs is how they have to manage resources. Team's always operating at an absolute maximum and a lot of what they do is the best possible solution within pretty severe limitations. Systems do not feel properly thought through because they probably missed time refining them. Loadouts do not feature enchantments, mounts, companions because it didn't make the deadline or was too much work. Etc.

    They do the same with these bans. They take the easy road at the expense of players.​​
  • Options
    damontar#5477 damontar Member Posts: 134 Arc User
    linoge63 said:

    How about this.
    The cryptic system detects a potential botter.
    This places them on a list.

    When crypic is ready to test this account a message appears on the screen in an official mode that requests communication with a live here and now crypic soul.
    A botter cannot hold a conversation, nor would a botter be able to team up and fight a few mobs togther.
    Sure, the afk thing would have to be considered becuase we all take breaks and respond to IRL activities.

    This would be a slow way to remove botting but it at least ensures those that are enjoying their game and playing it wont be treated otherwise.

    This would be hard to pull off.. I Like your Idea of a Pop Up window ( similar to invoking/praying ) and replying with a "I'm Not a bot code" Similar to the Registration forms for any other things. and allow a Specific time frame to respond to those messages from Cryptic. If Unanswered they are kicked for Inactivity ( normal method of clearing up some space already in place ) and an Email sent to their Email Account used to register their account for game play access.. and to gain regain access they must respond to the email sent out with-in a reasonable amount of time.. if that time passes it is locked and must go through customer service to re-gain access to said account.. if it's a botter they prolly wont even bother to try to gain that account back and write it off as an acceptable loss. For Legitimate players... well yeah they might be pissed.. but small price to pay to play a free game..

    A lot of loopholes I'm sure but something somewhere has to have some middle ground... Legit Players can care less about a botter/Goldseller and rather see them all Disappear.. And if this is a way to help make that happen then those Legitimate Players should not have a Problem with a random Screen showing up from time to time, if their account is suspected by the devs, or making it completely random as to not cause Drama by targeting Suspected accounts and just target Every single account.

    OR/AND just put the " I'M Not a Bot" thing at random while choosing a character or even changing characters and either not worry about the in-game pop up window or include it.

    food for thought.. probably overthinking with random HAMSTER spouted as i think about it or whatever.. but The "I'm Not a Bot" thing should be included somewhere somehow.



This discussion has been closed.