Huh. So asking your significant other to invoke for you if you were travelling without internet access so you didn't lose coins back when they expired actually made you a filthy rotten cheater. (I exaggerate, but.)
Again, I can't speak for the entire history of Neverwinter, but the current bans would in no way factor this in even if there were some magical, legal, and ethical way to know which spouse was pushing the keys. The goal was to identify accounts that couldn't possibly do what they did without significant automation.
@tripsofthrymr@nitocris83 People claim to have been banned for it. Also "household" is not accurate enough. Does it mean it's okay if different people play in the same "household". Or can one player have multiple accounts, given they do not violate the does with other actions?
People claim lots of things on the internet.
Only Customer Service knows for sure what evidence they have to support a specific ban. If someone truly was banned only for having more than two accounts tied to their "household," and they did absolutely nothing else that would raise red flags, I would say they have excellent grounds for appeal. I can't say whether that ever happened in the history of Neverwinter, but I can say that violating what Cryptic feels are the limits of "physics and biology" is the criteria they intended to apply to the current round of bans. I don't have an opinion about how well they hit that target because I'm a player that also volunteers to help moderate the forums and not in any way privy to the methodology used to identify bots or to player account information.
Yes, but it's kind of hard to present an argument/explanation when they don't provide even a shred of the so called evidence. If it had to do with too much leadership resources or playing 20 hours a day and you happened to have insomnia or something you could perhaps provide a doctors note as proof. Otherwise it's quite hard to read their minds.
I find it interesting that so many folks are so accepting of this kind of behavior by MMO companies. We might not be dealing with a legitimate legal system, but could you imagine being tried for a crime, being prnounced guilty and the prosecutor not only doesn't have to show evidence, but doesn't even have to say what you did?
I find it interesting that so many folks are so accepting of this kind of behavior by MMO companies. We might not be dealing with a legitimate legal system, but could you imagine being tried for a crime, being prnounced guilty and the prosecutor not only doesn't have to show evidence, but doesn't even have to say what you did?
Not only that, but that the legal system is class-based. Once you fall into the category of 'dedicated player', the evidence - which, like you said, doesn't have to be disclosed - is weighed differently. It's absolutely repulsive.
Isaac the Adequate - Level 70 Oath of Protection Paladin
We have looked into reports of players experiencing connection problems and have been unable to identify any server, data center, or client-side issues. We believe this may be ISP related.
Yes, but it's kind of hard to present an argument/explanation when they don't provide even a shred of the so called evidence. If it had to do with too much leadership resources or playing 20 hours a day and you happened to have insomnia or something you could perhaps provide a doctors note as proof. Otherwise it's quite hard to read their minds.
So you expect that staff will provide feedback how they catch bot users. Or it's also reads like, they would provide details to show where bot users screwed up. Now look from bot users view point.. They just had to use bots, receive feedbacks which explain how and they where traced. So they just had add extra changes to avoid to do same stuff. If got banned again, they add extra changes(updates).
This is free to play mmorpg< so bot user can create as many accounts he want. They cost 0
I find it interesting that so many folks are so accepting of this kind of behavior by MMO companies. We might not be dealing with a legitimate legal system, but could you imagine being tried for a crime, being prnounced guilty and the prosecutor not only doesn't have to show evidence, but doesn't even have to say what you did?
If u think Neverwinter is only one who do not disclose their ways how they traced bots, well check other mmorpg games. If you find any of them, let me know. Because all my known companies never ever revealed their methodology
From: >Game publisher< Sent: Date< To: banned players email.<
Greetings,
It has come to our attention that you where using _____________< (explanations of your crime). Due _____________(couple lines of rules and game license agreemend reminder. which u broke. )
Regards, _______(Gm/support service) Account Administration Team
And there is no feedback where they explain how they get you for cheating, and yes, bot using is cheating.
And now coolest part< neverwinter online belongs to cryptic studio. They have all rights to do as they pleased. They can ban x players if they think it will fit their needs. If u think opposite, please read game license agreement which u had to read before starting play this or any other game...
================================
No game company like to ban players. Because each player = possible proffit. neverwinter is entertaining service which they do provide, and player is customer. Now this is free2play, so u can play without spending any money. But some will like to get extra stuff, u or get extra chance with lockbox. so he will spend some real money for extra keys , or for cosmetic stuffs.. Lose player = lose possible proffit.
Now with bots it slightly different matter<. Bot user, farm x stuffs with bot, sell via AH or other ways get AD< exchange AD to zen< buy stuff from zen shop without using real money, then get some stuffs ressel stufs in AH< get extra profit, and it's locked chain.
And company don't get any incomes. So no profit for company.. Thats why this bot banning is necessary.
So cryptic studio do not killing game, they try keep it alive<.
However some dudes come here in forum and try spin words around, and convince that using automated softwares(bots) is not bad thing. And some of them are scared< and write here just dismiss any antibot solutions, try imply that is waste of time and should not be done anything.
When I read such posts, for me it's like dejavu, Because all bots users in all games, act similar or even same way...
Post edited by zebular on
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
Yes, but it's kind of hard to present an argument/explanation when they don't provide even a shred of the so called evidence. If it had to do with too much leadership resources or playing 20 hours a day and you happened to have insomnia or something you could perhaps provide a doctors note as proof. Otherwise it's quite hard to read their minds.
So you expect that staff will provide feedback how they catch bot users. Or it's also reads like, they would provide details to show where bot users screwed up. Now look from bot users view point.. They just had to use bots, receive feedbacks which explain how and they where traced. So they just had add extra changes to avoid to do same stuff. If got banned again, they add extra changes(updates).
This is free to play mmorpg< so bot user can create as many accounts he want. They cost 0
I find it interesting that so many folks are so accepting of this kind of behavior by MMO companies. We might not be dealing with a legitimate legal system, but could you imagine being tried for a crime, being prnounced guilty and the prosecutor not only doesn't have to show evidence, but doesn't even have to say what you did?
If u think Neverwinter is only one who do not disclose their ways how they traced bots, well check other mmorpg games. If you find any of them, let me know. Because all my known companies never ever revealed their methodology
From: >Game publisher< Sent: Date< To: banned players email.<
Greetings,
It has come to our attention that you where using _____________< (explanations of your crime). Due _____________(couple lines of rules and game license agreemend reminder. which u broke. )
Regards, _______(Gm/support service) Account Administration Team
And there is no feedback where they explain how they get you for cheating, and yes, bot using is cheating.
And now coolest part< neverwinter online belongs to cryptic studio. They have all rights to do as they pleased. They can ban x players if they think it will fit their needs. If u think opposite, please read game license agreement which u had to read before starting play this or any other game...
There are plenty of questions they can answer without revealing the methods they use to detect bots. The real reason they won't do it is because they would be admitting that there were innocent players banned in the latest ban wave.
Alright, question worth billion zen, what u want to hear from staff? 15 lines long apology letter, that they dared disturb bot users life? or what.
For got sake try put yourself in staff position for one moment.<. They are bound by rules, what they can reveal and what they can't.
Post edited by kreatyve on
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
There's a ton of grey area between having two accounts and having a hundred. You aren't likely to get a firm statement from any MMO about precisely where they draw the line, and indeed that line is likely to move over time.
To sum it up. PWE (@nitocris83) says there is no limit on accounts, except there might be one, which nobody is going to tell you and may move over time without further notice anyway. Ain't that just great? That's the definition of poo-poo and exactly why we're asking for some clarifications.
There are plenty of questions they can answer without revealing the methods they use to detect bots. The real reason they won't do it is because they would be admitting that there were innocent players banned in the latest ban wave.
We have a winner.
Also please stop pointing to other MMOs and publishers constantly while trying to defend the used methods. It's not a valid argument for anything. First of all there are plenty others studios out there that are more transparent, have a better monetization and proper support. Second even if, that doesn't mean that Cryptic/PWE can't do better than them.
Alright, question worth billion zen, what u want to hear from staff?
Accounts banned: <number>
Accounts released on probation: <number>
Accounts released because the manual verification showed they likely didn't bot: <number>
I understand now why they reacted the way they did, all they had to do was ask for help. If they need more money coming in, I would've bought zen and I know others that would do the same. Taking it out on your supporters is almost like you resent us for not helping out when we had no idea. Just tell us what's going on and will support you.
0
dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
@bloodyspamer said: "If u think Neverwinter is only one who do not disclose their ways how they traced bots, well check other mmorpg games." Strawman. (What was his theme song in Wizard of Oz?) Not one person here asked for bot tracking details.
My friends were banned for botting. They were not botting. (They played weekends only, buy zen, <4 toons, barely 10K gear and no gold). Cryptic owes them an explanation and desciption of what behaviors caused them to be falsely targeted or they will never pay/play again.
So please belay the sycophantic false equivalencies.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Huh. So asking your significant other to invoke for you if you were travelling without internet access so you didn't lose coins back when they expired actually made you a filthy rotten cheater. (I exaggerate, but.)
Again, I can't speak for the entire history of Neverwinter, but the current bans would in no way factor this in even if there were some magical, legal, and ethical way to know which spouse was pushing the keys. The goal was to identify accounts that couldn't possibly do what they did without significant automation.
What if they spent hours alting doing _________ while watching shows or movies? What amount of time spent alting is considered "couldn't possibly do without automation" because you can do hours of alting without automation.
Also I'm pretty sure I had you on friends list, maybe this data also included who community moderators felt was alting too much hence why all the casualties.
Phew been reading all these posts for days now.. What a rodeo this has been.. Some want evidence others want them to admit they made a mistake and/or both. Some want this, some want that ( insert whatever this and/or that is ) I've played plenty of games and there will always be botters, which it turn there will be bans for such actions. I'm not taking sides just pointing out the obvious. I mean there's so much one can say on these posts, I'm overwhelmed trying not cross a line and get my head chopped off LOL So I'm gonna keep it simple and just keep reading Happy Hunting all u diehards!!
I'm wondering if this method of operations is gonna be used in the future
To prevent this, lock mechanics could be put in place, can limit the amount of alting allowed in a day hmm what else? It's almost like they're saying "Here play our game but if you go over X amount of hours alting WARNING!"
I hate botters, they ruin things. I also hate being accused of something I didn't do. I hate seeing someone else falsely convicted. If I'm accused of something nefarious, I deserve a mechanism to refute what I've been falsely accused of BEFORE I'm convicted.
It's a basic tenant of at least the U.S system of justice that you get to confront your accuser. You shouldn't be tried by innuendo. Nor convicted by "anon. sources"
What it boils down to that people so worked up about is: 1. Log on, get a "you're banned" message. 2. No explanation of HOW you got banned, what you DID to get banned nor how to get OUT of banned. 3. The method to get out of banned state is an 'appeal". dependent on you asking and then waiting for some human to get off their duff and check and rescend the ban. 4. After a ban is lifted you are still probationary.
So an automated process detects you, convicts you and sentences you, without either your input or a staff members input. Your only recourse is pleading the courts indulgence. So to get off your sentencing you have to wait until a human gets around to it, decides in your favor and opens the cage door. But even then you are on "probation", this, after being falsely convicted.
Even the worse scumbags in the world gets a live judge and a jury of their peers before they hang. The system they got now, puts you on death row without even a trial, with you hoping they feed and water you before they hang you in the morning...
PLEASE guvna! Can I get a pardon?!? I'm innocent I tells ya!!!
1
kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
Even the worse scumbags in the world gets a live judge and a jury of their peers before they hang. The system they got now, puts you on death row without even a trial, with you hoping they feed and water you before they hang you in the morning...
Going by that analogy - if the police are convinced you have committed a crime, they will arrest you and put you in jail until at least a bail healing, and if you can't pay that bail, you will sit there until your trial. Think of the appeals process as your trial, and everyone is denied bail.
I don't have information on how many people were banned and how many were unbanned, but I do believe that if there were people who were innocently caught up in this, that number is probably pretty small. I also believe that there may also be a small number of people who didn't even realize they were violating any rules - but yet still were. Though I obviously have no evidence of either case. That's just my personal opinion, which does not reflect the opinions of anyone at PWE or Cryptic.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
Accounts released because the manual verification showed they likely didn't bot: <number>
Would be a start.
And why u need to know that? Will it change way u play this game? Or u intended start which hunting, start pointing finger to players and claim that these ones used bots and etc, or even want extra flaming within forum?
From bot user view point, provided data = feedback, how many slipped away from ban hammer, and how many got nailed. So obviously some updates would be done, and they will see how many pass security next time.
Also please stop pointing to other MMOs and publishers constantly while trying to defend the used methods. It's not a valid argument for anything. First of all there are plenty others studios out there that are more transparent, have a better monetization and proper support. Second even if, that doesn't mean that Cryptic/PWE can't do better than them.
You think other mmorp developers and publishers do stuffs different? Nop. They all work in similar manners. And I use just to remind that Cryptic/PWE didn't do nothing new. They do all by rules.
As for other studios, well NCsoft, ESTSoft, Innova, gameforge, Kakao Games, Trion Worlds. THese are just couple of ones with which I have encountered, and non of them did stuffs different than what now Cryptic/PWE studios do. I do not mentioning smaller Asian game companies. .
So tell me which one company is more transparent?
AS for better monetization and better.. There is said> The best game company is the one with which u have 0 relations. I was told Blizzard is best company, yet had wait for 5 months till they even respond to one of my ticket. Was told NC Soft is best, waited 4 months. ESTSoft, Waited 8 months.
So please, write me the name of your so called good company.
@dread4moor, So do your friend wrote and sent ticket to support service? Within my alliance, where players who also where banned, they wrote tickets, and they where unbanned, and play game without any problems.. Next, how can u be sure that your friends didn't use bot? Do you watching his PC/Laptops screen all time?
Post edited by hadestemplar#9918 on
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
1
jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
Even the worse scumbags in the world gets a live judge and a jury of their peers before they hang. The system they got now, puts you on death row without even a trial, with you hoping they feed and water you before they hang you in the morning...
Going by that analogy - if the police are convinced you have committed a crime, they will arrest you and put you in jail until at least a bail healing, and if you can't pay that bail, you will sit there until your trial. Think of the appeals process as your trial, and everyone is denied bail.
I don't have information on how many people were banned and how many were unbanned, but I do believe that if there were people who were innocently caught up in this, that number is probably pretty small. I also believe that there may also be a small number of people who didn't even realize they were violating any rules - but yet still were. Though I obviously have no evidence of either case. That's just my personal opinion, which does not reflect the opinions of anyone at PWE or Cryptic.
I don't doubt the number of those banned innocently are tiny compared to the accounts that needed banning.
What some of us are arguing for is that this process is not fair, it does not value the customer, it is not a process that is intuitive or easy to navigate for those affected.
I believe these bans are neccesary, not only to protect the game's economy but to protect player accounts from outside forces.
I just disagree with how they were implemented and how they did not respect paying customers, banned or not, in the process.
0
jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
Accounts released because the manual verification showed they likely didn't bot: <number>
Would be a start.
And why u need to know that? Will it change way u play this game? Or u intended start which hunting, start pointing finger to players and claim that these ones used bots and etc, or even want extra flaming within forum?
From bot user view point, provided data = feedback, how many slipped away from ban hammer, and how many got nailed. So obviously some updates would be done, and they will see how many pass security next time.
Also please stop pointing to other MMOs and publishers constantly while trying to defend the used methods. It's not a valid argument for anything. First of all there are plenty others studios out there that are more transparent, have a better monetization and proper support. Second even if, that doesn't mean that Cryptic/PWE can't do better than them.
You think other mmorp developers and publishers do stuffs different? Nop. They all work in similar manners. And I use just to remind that Cryptic/PWE didn't do nothing new. They do all by rules.
As for other studios, well NCsoft, ESTSoft, Innova, gameforge, Kakao Games, Trion Worlds. THese are just couple of ones with which I have encountered, and non of them did stuffs different than what now Cryptic/PWE studios do. I do not mentioning smaller Asian game companies. .
So tell me which one company is more transparent?
@dread4moor, So do your friend wrote and sent ticket to support service? Within my alliance, where players who also where banned, they wrote tickets, and they where unbanned, and play game without any problems.. Next, how can u be sure that your friends didn't use bot? Do you watching his PC/Laptops screen all time?
I am not interested how bots work and I am certainly not interested in how you believe bots work. If I cared how bots work I'd be sitting in some gaming company programming them.
I am not interested if I am right or wrong. My interest primarily is that I am upset. This entire process has upset me. It is my hope that whether I am right or wrong that my feedback has a constructive and positive effect on any future events that will affect me and others in a similar manner.
Conversely my arguement does not change if everyone/everything that was banned is guilty or if a few of them were, as reported, inncoent.
My argument does not change because it does not rely on assumptions of guilt or innocence it does not rely on mechanics of which I have no facts. My arguments rely on the fact that I AM UPSET with this process and how it has been handled but also how it may be handled in the future.
I am not interested how bots work and I am certainly not interested in how you believe bots work. If I cared how bots work I'd be sitting in some gaming company programming them.
I am not interested if I am right or wrong. My interest primarily is that I am upset. This entire process has upset me. It is my hope that whether I am right or wrong that my feedback has a constructive and positive effect on any future events that will affect me and others in a similar manner.
Conversely my arguement does not change if everyone/everything was banned is guilty or if a few of them were, as reported, inncoent.
My argument does not change because it does not rely on assumptions of guilt or innocence it does not rely on mechanics of which I have no facts. My arguments rely on the fact that I AM UPSET with this process and how it has been handled but also how it may be handled in the future.
Proffesional programing is just one of ways to get in game company.
As for upset. Well lot of bot users where/are upset after got banned. It's not like they celebrate for each ban they receive. Also banning is not pretty stuff. Do u think banning should be like special event, with special promotions and etc? Ban is ment to deal with players who used bots. And they should be upset for that, and they also should be scared. And due fear, other players are discouraged to use bots..
AS for innocent, well As i wrote before, and same as @nitocris83, wrote. write ticket to support services. They check data again, and if it proves that u where banned by mistake, you will be unbanned. But if guilty is proven, then ban remain.
And cryptic/PWE have all rights, to decide to either send you message with details why u where banned or not.
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
0
dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
edited May 2017
> @bloodyspamer said: not mentioning smaller Asian game companies. .
> @dread4moor, > So do your friend wrote and sent ticket to support service? > Within my alliance, where players who also where banned, they wrote tickets, and they where unbanned, and play game without any problems.. > Next, how can u be sure that your friends didn't use bot? Do you watching his PC/Laptops screen all time?
I explained very clearly how I know they did not bot. The fact that you blindly defend your masters without reading other comments says alot. 1)They are working adults, weekend wallet warriors, who bought zen every week with real $. Saw their purchase history. Botters do not buy zen with real $. 2) They only logged on when I called them, saw their log timers <5hours/week. Goldfarm botters do not log <5 hours/week. 3) They each have only 4 toons. This is not the pattern of a botter. 4) Their toons have barely 10K gear, nearly empty bags/banks/AH postings and little gold (seen screenshots). Impossible to bot with all these empty. Yes, they filed tickets AND email to CS including screenshots proving all above. (They CCed me).
... But like real, cash paying customers in other industries, they vote with their feet. They were unbanned, but don't care. They moved on to other games Cryptic treated them like <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> so they took their money elsewhere.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Yes, but it's kind of hard to present an argument/explanation when they don't provide even a shred of the so called evidence. If it had to do with too much leadership resources or playing 20 hours a day and you happened to have insomnia or something you could perhaps provide a doctors note as proof. Otherwise it's quite hard to read their minds.
So you expect that staff will provide feedback how they catch bot users. Or it's also reads like, they would provide details to show where bot users screwed up. Now look from bot users view point.. They just had to use bots, receive feedbacks which explain how and they where traced. So they just had add extra changes to avoid to do same stuff. If got banned again, they add extra changes(updates).
This is free to play mmorpg< so bot user can create as many accounts he want. They cost 0
Either they are detecting a bot or they aren't. If they are using statistics and think no human can play x # of hours a day, then they are NOT detecting bots, they are simply saying you are only allowed to play < x # of hours a day. Show me in the TOS where it says that? Likewise for # of invokes or leadership changes per day.
In any event, the "appeals" process doesn't exactly allow you to appeal if you don't know what you are being accused of. If you didn't use any automation and they believe you did because you exceeded some particular threshold but you can prove you did it manually, how can you present your case without some basic facts.
They don't have to reveal the threshold, but at least saying your account shows excessive # of hours, you could at least give a doctors note for insomnia.
It sounds to me like those supporting their actions feel it is ok to ban based off assumptions. Perhaps then it is better not to ban bots but rather to set express limits on how many hours a day you can log in (since they assume if you exceed it you MUST be a bot). Give everyone a countdown timer, limit everyone to x # of characters they can play per day and x# of leadership tasks per day. No, I'm not serious about this proposal but that is essentially what they are doing when they ban based off statistics. Clearly they view it as against the TOS to play too much. Like I said if they were detecting bots themselves they wouldn't have any false positives. There were a LOT more than you think this round. Folks that were very casual, very little AD, very little playtime too. I couldn't even take a guess as to what messed up heuristics they based their assumptions on.
0
kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
Even the worse scumbags in the world gets a live judge and a jury of their peers before they hang. The system they got now, puts you on death row without even a trial, with you hoping they feed and water you before they hang you in the morning...
Going by that analogy - if the police are convinced you have committed a crime, they will arrest you and put you in jail until at least a bail healing, and if you can't pay that bail, you will sit there until your trial. Think of the appeals process as your trial, and everyone is denied bail.
I don't have information on how many people were banned and how many were unbanned, but I do believe that if there were people who were innocently caught up in this, that number is probably pretty small. I also believe that there may also be a small number of people who didn't even realize they were violating any rules - but yet still were. Though I obviously have no evidence of either case. That's just my personal opinion, which does not reflect the opinions of anyone at PWE or Cryptic.
I don't doubt the number of those banned innocently are tiny compared to the accounts that needed banning.
What some of us are arguing for is that this process is not fair, it does not value the customer, it is not a process that is intuitive or easy to navigate for those affected.
I believe these bans are neccesary, not only to protect the game's economy but to protect player accounts from outside forces.
I just disagree with how they were implemented and how they did not respect paying customers, banned or not, in the process.
I'm not exactly sure how they disrespected anyone. Just because they do not share information more information regarding the bans? There's a multitude of reasons why they don't. Some information they legally can't share. Some they won't due to privacy reasons. And some they won't so that the botters don't know how to evade the next wave. Us moderators have been bugging Julia about it every day, but she's not even allowed to reveal anymore information to us than she has already revealed here. As for paying vs. non-paying customers - I don't think anyone should get special treatment when it comes to violating the rules - if you have spent $5000 or $0, if you violate the rules, you should be punished.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
Some information they legally can't share. Some they won't due to privacy reasons. And some they won't so that the botters don't know how to evade the next wave.
That is a bunch of sophistry. If they are banning an account, they should be legally required to share it, not the other way round. Likewise, what kind of "privacy" reasons? We are talking about revealing info about the client to themselves. Do you need privacy from yourself in your own bathroom?
Finally, the only way botters should be able to evade "the next wave" is by not botting. If you put up a red light camera, then the only people getting tickets are those that go through a red light. You don't need the hide that fact so that people can avoid getting red light tickets, right? The only way to avoid it is to not go through the red light. If we are talking about heuristics and not bot detection, then they need to update their TOS to state clearly you are not allowed to play more than x # of hours or do the same dungeon every day, because if they aren't outright detecting bots, then they are banning due to in game actions that themselves aren't against the TOS under the misguided assumption that a human normally doesn't do that.
1
jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
Even the worse scumbags in the world gets a live judge and a jury of their peers before they hang. The system they got now, puts you on death row without even a trial, with you hoping they feed and water you before they hang you in the morning...
Going by that analogy - if the police are convinced you have committed a crime, they will arrest you and put you in jail until at least a bail healing, and if you can't pay that bail, you will sit there until your trial. Think of the appeals process as your trial, and everyone is denied bail.
I don't have information on how many people were banned and how many were unbanned, but I do believe that if there were people who were innocently caught up in this, that number is probably pretty small. I also believe that there may also be a small number of people who didn't even realize they were violating any rules - but yet still were. Though I obviously have no evidence of either case. That's just my personal opinion, which does not reflect the opinions of anyone at PWE or Cryptic.
I don't doubt the number of those banned innocently are tiny compared to the accounts that needed banning.
What some of us are arguing for is that this process is not fair, it does not value the customer, it is not a process that is intuitive or easy to navigate for those affected.
I believe these bans are neccesary, not only to protect the game's economy but to protect player accounts from outside forces.
I just disagree with how they were implemented and how they did not respect paying customers, banned or not, in the process.
I'm not exactly sure how they disrespected anyone. Just because they do not share information more information regarding the bans? There's a multitude of reasons why they don't. Some information they legally can't share. Some they won't due to privacy reasons. And some they won't so that the botters don't know how to evade the next wave. Us moderators have been bugging Julia about it every day, but she's not even allowed to reveal anymore information to us than she has already revealed here. As for paying vs. non-paying customers - I don't think anyone should get special treatment when it comes to violating the rules - if you have spent $5000 or $0, if you violate the rules, you should be punished.
I think I've been quite consistent in my messages that I do not require proof, I do not require the details on their filters. I don't even need them to share information on the bans, as in how many were banned, how many are unbanned, how many are yet to be reviewed.
A few things you mention in your post do have relevancy in my arguments however.
At what financial cost will it take to realise that the income the rules rely on to exist might it be necessary to change those very rules.
Rules are a neccessary system of any social body, even anarchic systems that profess to have no rules, invariably, over time introduce unwritten rules that can be enforced however the enforcer chooses and whoever chooses to be an enforcer.
So, while I absolutely agree with you that rules are neccessary, where we differ is that some rules are not clear. If you are going to punish someone over a rule that can be interpreted differently by different people that's Cryptic's choice as a company. However, if you are going to punish a paying customer for something they thought was within the rules, Cryptic must understand that this will/might affect their revenue stream.
If paying customers are afraid for whatever reason that anything they might do will be interpreted at a later date as against the rules, you create uncertainty. Business is always harping on about it needs a clear set of rules, or how too many rules (red tape) are interfering with their ability to trade fairly. Business loves certainty. It loves to plan for the future and grow their investments based on certainty.
Customers rely on certainty too, the only difference here is that if we feel uncertain that any investment we make will be completely removed, for example, an account ban, uncertainty is created, confidence is eroded, trust becomes an issue, I/we stop spending money.
Now this is a question only Cryptic can address. If they are happy with the outcome of the filters and their results, if any loss in revenue is acceptable or so minimal then this scenario will play out in the future exactly the same in regards to the implementaion of any said filters and how any fallout is dealt with.
If they are happy even though some customers are unhappy, then any time those customers invest time or money into a company that disregards their feelings as superfluous then it becomes disrespectful.
You might think all these arguments are loosely tied together based on multiple assumptions, they are not. Because this is exactly how I feel.
The only assumption I am making is because I feel this way, others may feel the same way too. If I am the only one who feels this way and the next ban wave is implemented and handled in the same manner as this one, I will know that my purchasing power, my feedback and my feelings do not warrant a change in approach. Most of all I will learn that any time and monetary investment I have made is disposable.
@dread4moor, So you said one of your friend didn't use bot. And now we have to trust it. all because you said so. So, lets say, one of players have 20 bots runing around.. But one of his friend say, he don't use bots.. < Will you take these claims seriously?.
Only game logs can prove that x player is guilty or innocent. Not someones claims. And access to game logs have only staff.
Now you mentioned that your friend are unbanned,. yes.. So what u want more? Should Cryptic/PWE send you candy?
All is here is simply, you got mad because u didn't receive special treatment. But now just clear one thing. You are just yet another customer within NWO , so don't think u are center of the game and your or your friends problems are priority number one.
And if u think that any game company will treat you specially. Well surprise me, and name that company name..
Well, I will not go in deep explanation about bots. But one of examples. Their movements are to perfect. I mean when they walk around. If it would be classic styled mmorpg, where u click x are with mouse and your toon go there. well then it would be hard to recognize. But here in NWO we using keyboard. So usually players movements are more in lines. When you go around object also you run more in lines. Try with keyboard draw circle<. Now bots go around more perfectly than human. this is one of difference..
Next, related to movements, they get in x spot, then wait for second command. < Good example last siege of neverwitner.. bot go to x spot to kill group of monsters. But I dashed ahead him and blast that group. What he did? he still move there, ignored other monsters/enemies group which where near him.. Bot act as programed.<
So my friend, there are more than one way to catch bots.. And game statistic is just one of them. By the way, I watched how one player via twitch streamed one game for 48 hours.. And only he did, small breaks for drinks/food, and toilet.. Yet in these time frames, his toon was doing noghting. < Now for bot, no need food, no need rest, no need toilet. So 24h straight farming, is unusual stuff. And it's get attention from staff for investigation...
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
If they knew it was a criteria for being deemed 'not a bot', they would.
Some people just hate the company, and will jump on anything to push their views. So, when there is a legitimate issue, it gets watered down by all the other non-issues that have been raved about in the past.
Im sorry but after reading all that, i still have no clue what a dedicated player is, or what makes a player fall into this category? which one should we pick among those definitions from dictionary, since afterall its, i think, the main reason of this topic?
-believing that something is very important and giving a lot of time and energy to it - designed to be used for one particular purpose - Wholly committed to a particular course of thought or action; devoted
Ok, just realised the irony of those 3 definitions considering the context the word dedicated was used but couldnt find any other one.
In short, a regular, human player is not going to be banned as a bot. I chuckle because those braying the loudest on these forums are usually the smug ones who think they've 'outsmarted' the devs and found a way to cheat without getting caught. Be it exploits, scripts, or outright 3rd party selling bots. And this last ban wave caught a bunch of them. So as far as I am concerned, hooray! The devs can keep waving their ban stick around AS LONG AS they offer COMPETANT and TIMELY customer service to help clear the few who are falsely accused, and fairly compensate them.
2 weeks later reviews are ongoing. I haven't heard of any compensation or apology that a mistake in the process happened.
What we hear officially is that those deemed dedicated players are being tentatively unbanned and placed on probation. That is everything I believe we can categorecally say we know as players as fact.
So needless to say, some of us are upset at this entire process. We don't know how people got flagged or if we ourselves will do something that gets flagged the next time a ban wave happens. Only Cryptic knows how competant this entire endeavor has been, the greater the number of false positives they created, the less competant they should be willing to admit to themselves the entire process has been.
I hope most of our feedback will help Cryptic improve the process in the future so that there are less false positives in the future than there was this time, regardless of how many false positives there were this time, which we as players will never know.
I also hope our feedback will improve customer experience in the future so that even if we cannot be 100% confident that we will not be banned next time that we will be treated promptly, politely and as customers.
0
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
About the 100% legit or "Here you have the ToS, you are good to go", life is not black and white, but instead a lot of shades of grey. Those quotes and the road from them to culpability is not straightforward. There are few factors to consider:
Consensus:
I would like to start with a real life example, perhaps a cultural thing, but, where I live we have a speed limit of 90km/h (for most highway roads). But in practice everyone, men, women, children, pets, and even the police (off-duty and on-duty) drive at 100km/h. This is so ingrained that when and a lot of roads it was changed to 100km/h / 110km/h most still keep at those speeds and do not go over. Is it illigal? 100%. Is it de facto illigal?
How it relates to neverwinter ?
Again from a personal experience: When i've started NW, it was my first MMO, just to emphasize how noob I was, I was doing all the quests, took me months to get to level 60, I was gathering all the drops, identifying and going back to the shops and sell for gold. When using smoke bomb I was running around to spread the smoke to a wider area - not joking. Anyway, at level 60, the queue never pops for TRs, so with the help of a friend (playing DC) we got into some /lfg groups to get t2 gear. I was just told to jump here, follow there, die over there, and so on.. In every single group, EVERY SINGLE ONE, you had to know to jump the gates in SP, or the lava in karru, Vals underwear, and so on.. Fail some jumps and aggro some mobs, and you will feel the wrath of the pugs, and in multiple languages. a TR that doesn't know how to campfire run CN ? You get kicked so fast, the server gets confused "I just put you in CN, why are you in PE?". I've practically quit over the stress involved in all those group interactions, only coming back at a later and joining /legit when it was made on dragon.
I'm sure that there are exceptions, but IMO, people who played from long ago, and actually played (group content, end-game), encountered this, and participated in some way or another. /legit was formed from a need, to actually allow another way.
So when you ask about 100% legit, you want the obvious truth that doesn't prove a thing? Or some lie to that will also not prove a thing? One thing doesn't prove culpability of another.
Morality vs ToS:
Two examples here, first, lets assume a friend goes on vecation and asks to claim their ViP key / winter parcel or whatever. They trust you, there is no issue here, lets even assume it's not someone you met and became afriend, but the significant other in RL. Will you do this ?
Second example will be buying RP, long long ago, RP stacks were 300AD R4 stack (IIRC), everyone used and bought those en-masse, anyone has doubts what was the source of all those stacks ? Those same bots that crowded AR and picked the nodes like crazy. That AD went straight to gold sellers that sold that AD for real $ that went to their pocket instead the developers and in essence hurt the game.
So we have a case when an action is morally right (help significant other / friend) with no ill outcome but prohibited by the ToS. On the other hand we have a completely legal action, buying stacks on AH, that significantly harms the game by feeding gold sellers.
Game design and response:
There are fundamental issues within the game design, the bugs, and how it's transferred into the consensus. Per usual few examples:
1. To finish the PvP campaign, one had to kill 1000 NPCs during the pvp phase. Meaning the giants. That requirement was so poorly designed that I know of person who just wanted the pirate set, and just quit the game over the impossibility to get it in any timely fashion. Ironically that same player, who is very strict, e.g. he convinced me to discard a bunch of unbound radiant augmentation stones, but would probably be flagged as a bot now because he was invoking every 20 hours (invoking worked differently back then) to shove time of the first angel 365 days (which he sold for 40mil).
2. Those dungeon issues, mentioned earlier, existed for over a year. Thus making it an acceptable and in practice common behavior.
3. On february 8 I've sent forum PM to nitocris trying to describe FBI exploit, thus far no response. I'll admit it wasn't the clearest explanation (it was second hand one) but yet, no response.
4. Two weeks ago, about 2 hours before the ban weave I've PMed and asked if it's possible to receive some game data in some fromat like XML, I wanted to add a fashion related tool to http://janne.coreside.com/ and didn't want to go into later issues over how the data was acquired. No surprise, no response.
5. The chest decline existed for so long that from a design mistake -> bug -> exploit, it became just a feature that the devs themselves designed the loot table around it.
How it's all even relevant here?
First of all to all those who just say "Here is the ToS. Period." Sorry, but it doesn't work this way, even simple number of accounts per person is not settled for 4 years. Oh and try to get ViP on all those accounts... But more importantly it goes to several points:
I would like to emphasize at this point that everything I discuss it in relation to players. Not gold sellers. Those are two very distinct groups. The assertion that "A lot of gold sellers were banned and only few players caught" is based on nothing. We have no inside knowledge and those groups are so easily separable that I can easily claim the opposite.
Punishment goals:
I'm not sure what is "maintaining a safe, secure and enjoyable environment for everyone.". I've never felt threatened but if the actual purpose is to create an effective deterrent then there are few simple things that should happen:
1. Clear rules. - If for example, I'm allowed to make infinite amount of accounts and buy ViP on all of them, then I'm allowed to do so, and not allowed in one post and banned in another.
2. Should be response - Rules should be enforced, even a simple response as stating "X is not allowed" will actually work. It's the basic counter for the natural tendency of humans (especially the younger) to push the limits. But once obvious rule violations are ignored, in few examples for a year or more, it just doesn't work.
3. Response in a timely fashion - It's a basic concept in education that when a mistake is made, the correction (response in this case) must be made as adjacent as possible. Otherwise it's irrelevant and won't accomplish anything. In this case, some bans were done to people who didn't login for over half year. Regardless of guilt or innocence it just makes a fool out of the whole system. Should I worry now that I will get banned for those campfire deaths in dungeons 4 years ago? What a bystander will get from such delay? That there is X thing that shouldn't be done, or that fear is your new best friend.
4. Proportional response - A computer can't judge. This is a basic issue, and before someone jump on me claiming I just bring it as an excuse, I've posted in the same spirit before the current events, for example https://www.reddit.com/r/Neverwinter/comments/63kxqg/rule_change_regarding_speedruns/dfy8cm3/ For the extreme example, a handicapped person who uses special software to automate some of the input and a gold seller who runs hundreds of PvP afking bots are guilty exactly of the same thing - 3d party. I hope it's clear why they are not the same. It's the companies decision how they handle the accounts, and they have the full right to terminate accounts. But, IMO, like in real life, every case is different.
5. Transparency - This is amaze me. To achieve actual deterrent the reaction must be public. The entire effort of hushing everything down is simply counter productive.
To add to 4, it should be extremely clear to anyone with minimal logic, that mistakes will always happen. It's unavoidable. The issue is how you deal with that possibility. Before you click the ban button, and after it's done. And here is also one of the major issues so far.
So bottom line:
1. Make it monthly, or per few months (the bans).
2. Publicize how many accounts were banned, warned or probation or whatever fits what it fits, for what (no one asks for reproduction steps) but when a person banned for using the account from 2 different places (flagged for sharing) but gets "bot" message, I think something is not right...
3. Please check before the bans, but as I've said, mistakes will happen, but when they do, lets not wait 3 weeks for customer service response or lack of it.
To some allegation that are similar to "If you are BiS you must have botted", or "Those people with tensers..", or "Legendary mount prices are due to botting" I've meticulously saved every salvageable item for the next double AD (if/when it comes) since the last one. One can buy a legendary mount (although the ugliest and the most useless one, but still) for the sum saved. So to all you nay-sayers, put 500k USD where your claims are, and I'll get to BiS with fresh account and stream every second of it. Feel free to open a kickstarter for the purpose.
Btw, hamsterioustoon why the cloak and dagger? Your real account is not shadowbanned / banned.
Comments
Sci-fi author: The Gods We Make, The Gods We Seek, and Ji-min
Yes, but it's kind of hard to present an argument/explanation when they don't provide even a shred of the so called evidence. If it had to do with too much leadership resources or playing 20 hours a day and you happened to have insomnia or something you could perhaps provide a doctors note as proof. Otherwise it's quite hard to read their minds.
I find it interesting that so many folks are so accepting of this kind of behavior by MMO companies. We might not be dealing with a legitimate legal system, but could you imagine being tried for a crime, being prnounced guilty and the prosecutor not only doesn't have to show evidence, but doesn't even have to say what you did?
Now look from bot users view point.. They just had to use bots, receive feedbacks which explain how and they where traced.
So they just had add extra changes to avoid to do same stuff. If got banned again, they add extra changes(updates).
This is free to play mmorpg< so bot user can create as many accounts he want. They cost 0
I find it interesting that so many folks are so accepting of this kind of behavior by MMO companies. We might not be dealing with a legitimate legal system, but could you imagine being tried for a crime, being prnounced guilty and the prosecutor not only doesn't have to show evidence, but doesn't even have to say what you did?
If u think Neverwinter is only one who do not disclose their ways how they traced bots, well check other mmorpg games. If you find any of them, let me know. Because all my known companies never ever revealed their methodology
Sent: Date<
To: banned players email.<
Greetings,
It has come to our attention that you where using _____________< (explanations of your crime).
Due _____________(couple lines of rules and game license agreemend reminder. which u broke. )
Regards, _______(Gm/support service)
Account Administration Team
And there is no feedback where they explain how they get you for cheating, and yes, bot using is cheating.
And now coolest part< neverwinter online belongs to cryptic studio. They have all rights to do as they pleased. They can ban x players if they think it will fit their needs. If u think opposite, please read game license agreement which u had to read before starting play this or any other game...
================================
No game company like to ban players. Because each player = possible proffit.
neverwinter is entertaining service which they do provide, and player is customer. Now this is free2play, so u can play without spending any money. But some will like to get extra stuff, u or get extra chance with lockbox. so he will spend some real money for extra keys , or for cosmetic stuffs.. Lose player = lose possible proffit.
Now with bots it slightly different matter<.
Bot user, farm x stuffs with bot, sell via AH or other ways get AD< exchange AD to zen< buy stuff from zen shop without using real money, then get some stuffs ressel stufs in AH< get extra profit, and it's locked chain.
And company don't get any incomes. So no profit for company.. Thats why this bot banning is necessary.
So cryptic studio do not killing game, they try keep it alive<.
However some dudes come here in forum and try spin words around, and convince that using automated softwares(bots) is not bad thing.
And some of them are scared< and write here just dismiss any antibot solutions, try imply that is waste of time and should not be done anything.
When I read such posts, for me it's like dejavu, Because all bots users in all games, act similar or even same way...
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
Alright, question worth billion zen, what u want to hear from staff? 15 lines long apology letter, that they dared disturb bot users life? or what.
For got sake try put yourself in staff position for one moment.<. They are bound by rules, what they can reveal and what they can't.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
To sum it up. PWE (@nitocris83) says there is no limit on accounts, except there might be one, which nobody is going to tell you and may move over time without further notice anyway. Ain't that just great? That's the definition of poo-poo and exactly why we're asking for some clarifications.
We have a winner.
Also please stop pointing to other MMOs and publishers constantly while trying to defend the used methods. It's not a valid argument for anything. First of all there are plenty others studios out there that are more transparent, have a better monetization and proper support. Second even if, that doesn't mean that Cryptic/PWE can't do better than them.
Accounts banned: <number>
Accounts released on probation: <number>
Accounts released because the manual verification showed they likely didn't bot: <number>
Would be a start.
"If u think Neverwinter is only one who do not disclose their ways how they traced bots, well check other mmorpg games."
Strawman.
(What was his theme song in Wizard of Oz?)
Not one person here asked for bot tracking details.
My friends were banned for botting.
They were not botting.
(They played weekends only, buy zen, <4 toons, barely 10K gear and no gold).
Cryptic owes them an explanation and desciption of what behaviors caused them to be falsely targeted or they will never pay/play again.
So please belay the sycophantic false equivalencies.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Also I'm pretty sure I had you on friends list, maybe this data also included who community moderators felt was alting too much hence why all the casualties.
I've played plenty of games and there will always be botters, which it turn there will be bans for such actions.
I'm not taking sides just pointing out the obvious.
I mean there's so much one can say on these posts, I'm overwhelmed trying not cross a line and get my head chopped off LOL
So I'm gonna keep it simple and just keep reading
Happy Hunting all u diehards!!
To prevent this, lock mechanics could be put in place, can limit the amount of alting allowed in a day hmm what else? It's almost like they're saying "Here play our game but if you go over X amount of hours alting WARNING!"
It's a basic tenant of at least the U.S system of justice that you get to confront your accuser.
You shouldn't be tried by innuendo. Nor convicted by "anon. sources"
What it boils down to that people so worked up about is:
1. Log on, get a "you're banned" message.
2. No explanation of HOW you got banned, what you DID to get banned nor how to get OUT of banned.
3. The method to get out of banned state is an 'appeal". dependent on you asking and then waiting for some human to get off their duff and check and rescend the ban.
4. After a ban is lifted you are still probationary.
So an automated process detects you, convicts you and sentences you, without either your input or a staff members input. Your only recourse is pleading the courts indulgence. So to get off your sentencing you have to wait until a human gets around to it, decides in your favor and opens the cage door. But even then you are on "probation", this, after being falsely convicted.
Even the worse scumbags in the world gets a live judge and a jury of their peers before they hang. The system they got now, puts you on death row without even a trial, with you hoping they feed and water you before they hang you in the morning...
PLEASE guvna! Can I get a pardon?!? I'm innocent I tells ya!!!
I don't have information on how many people were banned and how many were unbanned, but I do believe that if there were people who were innocently caught up in this, that number is probably pretty small. I also believe that there may also be a small number of people who didn't even realize they were violating any rules - but yet still were. Though I obviously have no evidence of either case. That's just my personal opinion, which does not reflect the opinions of anyone at PWE or Cryptic.
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
Or u intended start which hunting, start pointing finger to players and claim that these ones used bots and etc, or even want extra flaming within forum?
From bot user view point, provided data = feedback, how many slipped away from ban hammer, and how many got nailed.
So obviously some updates would be done, and they will see how many pass security next time.
You think other mmorp developers and publishers do stuffs different? Nop.
They all work in similar manners. And I use just to remind that Cryptic/PWE didn't do nothing new. They do all by rules.
As for other studios, well NCsoft, ESTSoft, Innova, gameforge, Kakao Games, Trion Worlds. THese are just couple of ones with which I have encountered, and non of them did stuffs different than what now Cryptic/PWE studios do.
I do not mentioning smaller Asian game companies. .
So tell me which one company is more transparent?
AS for better monetization and better.. There is said> The best game company is the one with which u have 0 relations.
I was told Blizzard is best company, yet had wait for 5 months till they even respond to one of my ticket.
Was told NC Soft is best, waited 4 months.
ESTSoft, Waited 8 months.
So please, write me the name of your so called good company.
@dread4moor,
So do your friend wrote and sent ticket to support service?
Within my alliance, where players who also where banned, they wrote tickets, and they where unbanned, and play game without any problems..
Next, how can u be sure that your friends didn't use bot?
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
What some of us are arguing for is that this process is not fair, it does not value the customer, it is not a process that is intuitive or easy to navigate for those affected.
I believe these bans are neccesary, not only to protect the game's economy but to protect player accounts from outside forces.
I just disagree with how they were implemented and how they did not respect paying customers, banned or not, in the process.
I am not interested if I am right or wrong. My interest primarily is that I am upset. This entire process has upset me. It is my hope that whether I am right or wrong that my feedback has a constructive and positive effect on any future events that will affect me and others in a similar manner.
Conversely my arguement does not change if everyone/everything that was banned is guilty or if a few of them were, as reported, inncoent.
My argument does not change because it does not rely on assumptions of guilt or innocence it does not rely on mechanics of which I have no facts. My arguments rely on the fact that I AM UPSET with this process and how it has been handled but also how it may be handled in the future.
As for upset. Well lot of bot users where/are upset after got banned. It's not like they celebrate for each ban they receive.
Also banning is not pretty stuff. Do u think banning should be like special event, with special promotions and etc?
Ban is ment to deal with players who used bots. And they should be upset for that, and they also should be scared. And due fear, other players are discouraged to use bots..
AS for innocent, well As i wrote before, and same as @nitocris83, wrote. write ticket to support services. They check data again, and if it proves that u where banned by mistake, you will be unbanned.
But if guilty is proven, then ban remain.
And cryptic/PWE have all rights, to decide to either send you message with details why u where banned or not.
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
not mentioning smaller Asian game companies. .
> @dread4moor,
> So do your friend wrote and sent ticket to support service?
> Within my alliance, where players who also where banned, they wrote tickets, and they where unbanned, and play game without any problems..
> Next, how can u be sure that your friends didn't use bot?
I explained very clearly how I know they did not bot.
The fact that you blindly defend your masters without reading other comments says alot.
1)They are working adults, weekend wallet warriors, who bought zen every week with real $. Saw their purchase history. Botters do not buy zen with real $.
2) They only logged on when I called them, saw their log timers <5hours/week.
Goldfarm botters do not log <5 hours/week.
3) They each have only 4 toons. This is not the pattern of a botter.
4) Their toons have barely 10K gear, nearly empty bags/banks/AH postings and little gold (seen screenshots). Impossible to bot with all these empty.
Yes, they filed tickets AND email to CS including screenshots proving all above. (They CCed me).
... But like real, cash paying customers in other industries, they vote with their feet.
They were unbanned, but don't care.
They moved on to other games
Cryptic treated them like <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> so they took their money elsewhere.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
In any event, the "appeals" process doesn't exactly allow you to appeal if you don't know what you are being accused of. If you didn't use any automation and they believe you did because you exceeded some particular threshold but you can prove you did it manually, how can you present your case without some basic facts.
They don't have to reveal the threshold, but at least saying your account shows excessive # of hours, you could at least give a doctors note for insomnia.
It sounds to me like those supporting their actions feel it is ok to ban based off assumptions. Perhaps then it is better not to ban bots but rather to set express limits on how many hours a day you can log in (since they assume if you exceed it you MUST be a bot). Give everyone a countdown timer, limit everyone to x # of characters they can play per day and x# of leadership tasks per day. No, I'm not serious about this proposal but that is essentially what they are doing when they ban based off statistics. Clearly they view it as against the TOS to play too much. Like I said if they were detecting bots themselves they wouldn't have any false positives. There were a LOT more than you think this round. Folks that were very casual, very little AD, very little playtime too. I couldn't even take a guess as to what messed up heuristics they based their assumptions on.
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
Finally, the only way botters should be able to evade "the next wave" is by not botting. If you put up a red light camera, then the only people getting tickets are those that go through a red light. You don't need the hide that fact so that people can avoid getting red light tickets, right? The only way to avoid it is to not go through the red light. If we are talking about heuristics and not bot detection, then they need to update their TOS to state clearly you are not allowed to play more than x # of hours or do the same dungeon every day, because if they aren't outright detecting bots, then they are banning due to in game actions that themselves aren't against the TOS under the misguided assumption that a human normally doesn't do that.
A few things you mention in your post do have relevancy in my arguments however.
At what financial cost will it take to realise that the income the rules rely on to exist might it be necessary to change those very rules.
Rules are a neccessary system of any social body, even anarchic systems that profess to have no rules, invariably, over time introduce unwritten rules that can be enforced however the enforcer chooses and whoever chooses to be an enforcer.
So, while I absolutely agree with you that rules are neccessary, where we differ is that some rules are not clear. If you are going to punish someone over a rule that can be interpreted differently by different people that's Cryptic's choice as a company. However, if you are going to punish a paying customer for something they thought was within the rules, Cryptic must understand that this will/might affect their revenue stream.
If paying customers are afraid for whatever reason that anything they might do will be interpreted at a later date as against the rules, you create uncertainty. Business is always harping on about it needs a clear set of rules, or how too many rules (red tape) are interfering with their ability to trade fairly. Business loves certainty. It loves to plan for the future and grow their investments based on certainty.
Customers rely on certainty too, the only difference here is that if we feel uncertain that any investment we make will be completely removed, for example, an account ban, uncertainty is created, confidence is eroded, trust becomes an issue, I/we stop spending money.
Now this is a question only Cryptic can address. If they are happy with the outcome of the filters and their results, if any loss in revenue is acceptable or so minimal then this scenario will play out in the future exactly the same in regards to the implementaion of any said filters and how any fallout is dealt with.
If they are happy even though some customers are unhappy, then any time those customers invest time or money into a company that disregards their feelings as superfluous then it becomes disrespectful.
You might think all these arguments are loosely tied together based on multiple assumptions, they are not. Because this is exactly how I feel.
The only assumption I am making is because I feel this way, others may feel the same way too. If I am the only one who feels this way and the next ban wave is implemented and handled in the same manner as this one, I will know that my purchasing power, my feedback and my feelings do not warrant a change in approach. Most of all I will learn that any time and monetary investment I have made is disposable.
So you said one of your friend didn't use bot. And now we have to trust it. all because you said so.
So, lets say, one of players have 20 bots runing around.. But one of his friend say, he don't use bots.. < Will you take these claims seriously?.
Only game logs can prove that x player is guilty or innocent. Not someones claims. And access to game logs have only staff.
Now you mentioned that your friend are unbanned,. yes.. So what u want more? Should Cryptic/PWE send you candy?
All is here is simply, you got mad because u didn't receive special treatment.
But now just clear one thing. You are just yet another customer within NWO , so don't think u are center of the game and your or your friends problems are priority number one.
And if u think that any game company will treat you specially. Well surprise me, and name that company name..
=====================
@kzone,
Well, I will not go in deep explanation about bots. But one of examples. Their movements are to perfect. I mean when they walk around. If it would be classic styled mmorpg, where u click x are with mouse and your toon go there. well then it would be hard to recognize. But here in NWO we using keyboard. So usually players movements are more in lines. When you go around object also you run more in lines. Try with keyboard draw circle<.
Now bots go around more perfectly than human. this is one of difference..
Next, related to movements, they get in x spot, then wait for second command. <
Good example last siege of neverwitner.. bot go to x spot to kill group of monsters. But I dashed ahead him and blast that group. What he did? he still move there, ignored other monsters/enemies group which where near him.. Bot act as programed.<
So my friend, there are more than one way to catch bots.. And game statistic is just one of them. By the way, I watched how one player via twitch streamed one game for 48 hours..
Yet in these time frames, his toon was doing noghting. <
Now for bot, no need food, no need rest, no need toilet. So 24h straight farming, is unusual stuff. And it's get attention from staff for investigation...
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
Some people just hate the company, and will jump on anything to push their views. So, when there is a legitimate issue, it gets watered down by all the other non-issues that have been raved about in the past.
-believing that something is very important and giving a lot of time and energy to it
- designed to be used for one particular purpose
- Wholly committed to a particular course of thought or action; devoted
Ok, just realised the irony of those 3 definitions considering the context the word dedicated was used but couldnt find any other one.
What we hear officially is that those deemed dedicated players are being tentatively unbanned and placed on probation. That is everything I believe we can categorecally say we know as players as fact.
So needless to say, some of us are upset at this entire process. We don't know how people got flagged or if we ourselves will do something that gets flagged the next time a ban wave happens. Only Cryptic knows how competant this entire endeavor has been, the greater the number of false positives they created, the less competant they should be willing to admit to themselves the entire process has been.
I hope most of our feedback will help Cryptic improve the process in the future so that there are less false positives in the future than there was this time, regardless of how many false positives there were this time, which we as players will never know.
I also hope our feedback will improve customer experience in the future so that even if we cannot be 100% confident that we will not be banned next time that we will be treated promptly, politely and as customers.
About the 100% legit or "Here you have the ToS, you are good to go", life is not black and white, but instead a lot of shades of grey. Those quotes and the road from them to culpability is not straightforward. There are few factors to consider:
Consensus:
I would like to start with a real life example, perhaps a cultural thing, but, where I live we have a speed limit of 90km/h (for most highway roads). But in practice everyone, men, women, children, pets, and even the police (off-duty and on-duty) drive at 100km/h.
This is so ingrained that when and a lot of roads it was changed to 100km/h / 110km/h most still keep at those speeds and do not go over. Is it illigal? 100%. Is it de facto illigal?
How it relates to neverwinter ?
Again from a personal experience: When i've started NW, it was my first MMO, just to emphasize how noob I was, I was doing all the quests, took me months to get to level 60, I was gathering all the drops, identifying and going back to the shops and sell for gold. When using smoke bomb I was running around to spread the smoke to a wider area - not joking.
Anyway, at level 60, the queue never pops for TRs, so with the help of a friend (playing DC) we got into some /lfg groups to get t2 gear. I was just told to jump here, follow there, die over there, and so on.. In every single group, EVERY SINGLE ONE, you had to know to jump the gates in SP, or the lava in karru, Vals underwear, and so on.. Fail some jumps and aggro some mobs, and you will feel the wrath of the pugs, and in multiple languages. a TR that doesn't know how to campfire run CN ? You get kicked so fast, the server gets confused "I just put you in CN, why are you in PE?".
I've practically quit over the stress involved in all those group interactions, only coming back at a later and joining /legit when it was made on dragon.
I'm sure that there are exceptions, but IMO, people who played from long ago, and actually played (group content, end-game), encountered this, and participated in some way or another. /legit was formed from a need, to actually allow another way.
So when you ask about 100% legit, you want the obvious truth that doesn't prove a thing? Or some lie to that will also not prove a thing? One thing doesn't prove culpability of another.
Morality vs ToS:
Two examples here, first, lets assume a friend goes on vecation and asks to claim their ViP key / winter parcel or whatever. They trust you, there is no issue here, lets even assume it's not someone you met and became afriend, but the significant other in RL.
Will you do this ?
Second example will be buying RP, long long ago, RP stacks were 300AD R4 stack (IIRC), everyone used and bought those en-masse, anyone has doubts what was the source of all those stacks ? Those same bots that crowded AR and picked the nodes like crazy. That AD went straight to gold sellers that sold that AD for real $ that went to their pocket instead the developers and in essence hurt the game.
So we have a case when an action is morally right (help significant other / friend) with no ill outcome but prohibited by the ToS. On the other hand we have a completely legal action, buying stacks on AH, that significantly harms the game by feeding gold sellers.
Game design and response:
There are fundamental issues within the game design, the bugs, and how it's transferred into the consensus. Per usual few examples:
1. To finish the PvP campaign, one had to kill 1000 NPCs during the pvp phase. Meaning the giants. That requirement was so poorly designed that I know of person who just wanted the pirate set, and just quit the game over the impossibility to get it in any timely fashion. Ironically that same player, who is very strict, e.g. he convinced me to discard a bunch of unbound radiant augmentation stones, but would probably be flagged as a bot now because he was invoking every 20 hours (invoking worked differently back then) to shove time of the first angel 365 days (which he sold for 40mil).
2. Those dungeon issues, mentioned earlier, existed for over a year. Thus making it an acceptable and in practice common behavior.
3. On february 8 I've sent forum PM to nitocris trying to describe FBI exploit, thus far no response. I'll admit it wasn't the clearest explanation (it was second hand one) but yet, no response.
4. Two weeks ago, about 2 hours before the ban weave I've PMed and asked if it's possible to receive some game data in some fromat like XML, I wanted to add a fashion related tool to http://janne.coreside.com/ and didn't want to go into later issues over how the data was acquired. No surprise, no response.
5. The chest decline existed for so long that from a design mistake -> bug -> exploit, it became just a feature that the devs themselves designed the loot table around it.
How it's all even relevant here?
First of all to all those who just say "Here is the ToS. Period." Sorry, but it doesn't work this way, even simple number of accounts per person is not settled for 4 years. Oh and try to get ViP on all those accounts...
But more importantly it goes to several points:
I would like to emphasize at this point that everything I discuss it in relation to players. Not gold sellers. Those are two very distinct groups. The assertion that "A lot of gold sellers were banned and only few players caught" is based on nothing. We have no inside knowledge and those groups are so easily separable that I can easily claim the opposite.
Punishment goals:
I'm not sure what is "maintaining a safe, secure and enjoyable environment for everyone.". I've never felt threatened but if the actual purpose is to create an effective deterrent then there are few simple things that should happen:
1. Clear rules. - If for example, I'm allowed to make infinite amount of accounts and buy ViP on all of them, then I'm allowed to do so, and not allowed in one post and banned in another.
2. Should be response - Rules should be enforced, even a simple response as stating "X is not allowed" will actually work. It's the basic counter for the natural tendency of humans (especially the younger) to push the limits. But once obvious rule violations are ignored, in few examples for a year or more, it just doesn't work.
3. Response in a timely fashion - It's a basic concept in education that when a mistake is made, the correction (response in this case) must be made as adjacent as possible. Otherwise it's irrelevant and won't accomplish anything. In this case, some bans were done to people who didn't login for over half year. Regardless of guilt or innocence it just makes a fool out of the whole system. Should I worry now that I will get banned for those campfire deaths in dungeons 4 years ago? What a bystander will get from such delay? That there is X thing that shouldn't be done, or that fear is your new best friend.
4. Proportional response - A computer can't judge. This is a basic issue, and before someone jump on me claiming I just bring it as an excuse, I've posted in the same spirit before the current events, for example https://www.reddit.com/r/Neverwinter/comments/63kxqg/rule_change_regarding_speedruns/dfy8cm3/
For the extreme example, a handicapped person who uses special software to automate some of the input and a gold seller who runs hundreds of PvP afking bots are guilty exactly of the same thing - 3d party. I hope it's clear why they are not the same. It's the companies decision how they handle the accounts, and they have the full right to terminate accounts. But, IMO, like in real life, every case is different.
5. Transparency - This is amaze me. To achieve actual deterrent the reaction must be public. The entire effort of hushing everything down is simply counter productive.
To add to 4, it should be extremely clear to anyone with minimal logic, that mistakes will always happen. It's unavoidable. The issue is how you deal with that possibility. Before you click the ban button, and after it's done. And here is also one of the major issues so far.
So bottom line:
1. Make it monthly, or per few months (the bans).
2. Publicize how many accounts were banned, warned or probation or whatever fits what it fits, for what (no one asks for reproduction steps) but when a person banned for using the account from 2 different places (flagged for sharing) but gets "bot" message, I think something is not right...
3. Please check before the bans, but as I've said, mistakes will happen, but when they do, lets not wait 3 weeks for customer service response or lack of it.
To some allegation that are similar to "If you are BiS you must have botted", or "Those people with tensers..", or "Legendary mount prices are due to botting"
I've meticulously saved every salvageable item for the next double AD (if/when it comes) since the last one. One can buy a legendary mount (although the ugliest and the most useless one, but still) for the sum saved. So to all you nay-sayers, put 500k USD where your claims are, and I'll get to BiS with fresh account and stream every second of it. Feel free to open a kickstarter for the purpose.
Btw, hamsterioustoon why the cloak and dagger? Your real account is not shadowbanned / banned.