... Prominent members of the Neverwinter community and long-time players have been forcibly removed from said community. Some of them may have botted, some of them may have been collateral damage. The community out-cry over this has been large, both on the forums and in game, where it has been the topic of discussion in many channels, where I've seldom encountered a message endorsing the recent move. I'm inclined to use a bit of hyperbole, and paraphrasing historians of the Stalinist Terror, "Prominent members of the Neverwinter community " who hasn't seen one of their friends, guildies or familiar faces in a channel see disappear.
There's a couple of issues with this paragraph. Firstly, the internal logic - we stand behind our decision but are reversing it - is hilarious. Which is it? You can't have both. Secondly, what does 'probation' mean? Either someone commits a bannable offense, or they don't. And, lastly, the issue of 'dedicated players', which has inspired this post in the first place.
'Dedicated players' has to be the vaguest term to come out of a marketing department yet.
I 'll try to answer using your own words.
"Prominent members of the Neverwinter community and long-time players have been forcibly removed from said community. Some of them may have botted"
90% of them have botted now,or in the past.
"The community out-cry over this has been large, both on the forums and in game,"
Has been large cause we go to your first term ..."Prominent members of the Neverwinter community "
"I've seldom encountered a message endorsing the recent move"
Going against the trend can have a cost in NW worlds.Where the botters are...""Prominent members of the Neverwinter community " and control the view of the facts ,that will and would ,be presented in the rest of the community.
"who hasn't seen one of their friends, guildies or familiar faces in a channel see disappear. "
They should bot less then ,and play the game.Being BiS while you dont play the game or you dont paying real money,cannot be achieved.Yet they are droves of players of the aforementioned category.They must be really innovative minds... A-HA!!! They must have "playing the AH" or "run CN in mod1 where you would make milionsssss " .That are their excuses.Which ofcourse to anyone having the singlest clue about the game,is not possible.Never been.
"we stand behind our decision but are reversing it - is hilarious."
It is not.They just decided and weighted that,in terms of public realtions damage vs lost income from botting,is better to unban the hypocritical hamsters and give them a last chance.
"'Dedicated players' has to be the vaguest term to come out of a marketing department yet. "
Dedicated players ,in the theme we discuss ,are : Reknown forumers,guild officers/leaders in mega guilds,influential players,youtobe video posters with thousand of views. Some times they have 2 or more definitions from the temrs ,above.
Quick and fast synopsis:
90% of the bans were fair.But because the banned players are "Prominent members of the Neverwinter community" Cryptic decided that the damage in public realtions was too high and gave them a last chance.
I wasn't going to post at all but I disagreed with your post so strongly that I felt it was worth the risk, You seem to have many if not all the answers so I will ask you a few questions.
You mention that 90% of all prominent members are botting or have done so in the past, what is you evidence for this? Also, do you believe that collateral damage is an acceptable business model? Do you believe this because you don't currently know anyone who you believe plays fairly who got banned?
On the next ban wave if you or any of said friends found yourselves in the 10% and did get banned what would your reaction be then and do you think your views would change?
If it took 2 weeks to get unbanned would you want recompense for lost VIP time/Epic Keys/Enchanted keys? Would the experience encourage or discourage you to spend more money with this company?
Have you ever been unfairly or poorly treated by a business? If so what was your reaction? Did you stop giving them your custom or maybe switched to another provider? What is the financial cost of losing customers and what is the financial cost of those customers negative feedback on other potenial customers?
What is the criteria to meet the term dedicated player? How many dollars must you spend per week and must you also play X amount of hours. Do you believe that all customers are equal but some customers are more equal than others?
To be honest, Maybe some people are afraid to post about this topic considering how forcefully the original topics were removed and all conversation about it squashed. Also- You can't post on the forums that you're upset about being banned if you're banned. Everyone could post on the forums about coalescent wards and things being taken from t-bar store because they all still had their accounts.
There are also multiple issues surrounding this one.
Post edited by bitt3rnightmar3 on
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@weaver936 Not saying you're wrong, but economy dynamics are hard to oversee for most, hence it's not something they credit to botters.
@dread4moor I see why you would blame botters here, but swinging the nerf bat was the most convenient route the devs could take. Many of us have always challenged this approach because it would leave a nerfed area to legit players while the botters just moved on exploiting the next possible thing. This is as much on the devs.
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dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
> @loboguild said: > @weaver936 Not saying you're wrong, but economy dynamics are hard to oversee for most, hence it's not something they credit to botters. > > @dread4moor I see why you would blame botters here, but swinging the nerf bat was the most convenient route the devs could take. Many of us have always challenged this approach because it would leave a nerfed area to legit players while the botters just moved on exploiting the next possible thing. This is as much on the devs.
I did not support the response in any way. One can acknowledge the impact of botting on player's QoL while being critical of current antibotting methods. They are not mutually exclusive.
On the contrary. I lost two friends who I personally brought into the game because of last weekend's events... low-level casual players incapable of botting.
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kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
General note: Discussing moderation is still not allowed. If you have an issue or question about moderation of this or any other thread, please contact a moderator or @nitocris83. Thanks.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
@bitt3rnightmar3, Bot users got affected, some hardcore players got affected. Majority players where not affected<. If you do not use bot, you are safe from that,,
There are couple type of bots,
1) gold spammers. Spam chat, mail, inviting players in friendlist and etc.. 2)Invokers< they log in, invoke, claim rewards, some of stuffs send via mail to main character/account.
Players who where affected by this ban wave, where because security system though that they are bots who invoking. 3) craft/proffesion bots. > log in, start x crafting, goes offline. Nothing special.. 4)Bot dungeon/content assitance, bot programed to follow group leader(real player) and provide buffs/debuffs.. Usually can be notice them due too perfect movement how they follow group leader.. As example> if programed to stay in 2 feets range, it will stay in 2feets range in any case. Thats mean group leader start walk, and when reach 2 feets range< bot start walk too. < once group leader dies< bot execute command follow(2feets) and try get near leader.. In dungeon boss fight, usually these bots start walking to wall< or get in traps<...
5)zombies. They are used to fill players in party. Similar to dungeon assister . Yet they mostly are exploited for pvp points/shards farming. They stay in x area, capture dominations x spot, move to other, And never fight back... So it's easy s pvp score boosting. and if happens 2 bots parties met each other. Well. bot user get pvp shards anyways. So it;s win win case.
---------------------
There is nothing special about these guys.. Some stay silent and keep using them. Some start complain that how dared staff implement security measurements. Why they didn't inform players for that, and what kind system is running and etc..
==============
AS for way to deal with such bots. well there are websites/ forums where u can get them.. If I would be part of staff,, I would make fake bot, with malware code inside. Once player use bot, it send ID/password to x website with his Id/passw, and staff would know who used it.. <
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
90% of the bans were fair.But because the banned players are "Prominent members of the Neverwinter community" Cryptic decided that the damage in public realtions was too high and gave them a last chance.
How did you come up with the number of 90%?
Do you have data from the developers (which obviously isn't very reliable) or are you just guessing?
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dread4moorMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,154Arc User
edited May 2017
> @bloodyspamer said: > @bitt3rnightmar3, > Bot users got affected, some hardcore players got affected. > Majority players where not affected<. > If you do not use bot, you are safe from that,, In fact, looking at the numbers in this thread and other venues, I'd say it's rather small, ... it is clear that there's just a number of vocal people drumming this horse on. > Yes, you have a point, if people had been more vocal, there would be a greater number of posts and threads on the matter.
True. There are very few posts... therefore few people were affected... I guess you're right.
Can't think of any other reason why we don't see complaint posts....
Anyone complaining therefore are trouble-makers "banging the drum". That is the only possible explanation.
Edit: /s
Post edited by dread4moor on
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,093Arc User
The only ones that truly know who, what and why aren't talking in the forums. Everything else is speculation and sour grapes.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
The only ones that truly know who, what and why aren't talking in the forums. Everything else is speculation and sour grapes.
Hey, I know how to shut everyone up. PWE just has to fill out these numbers:
Total banned accounts:
Total released accounts on probation:
Total released accounts because a manual verification showed inconclusive evidence:
Transparency is the main problem here. As long as they play stupid, no wonder people shake their heads. They have all the tools to clear up this mess, they just have to use them.
@bitt3rnightmar3, Bot users got affected, some hardcore players got affected. Majority players where not affected
Only some were not safe from that and none of us know if we will be safe in the future.
U want me to say, that some where not safe from game protection? And we are non of us safe from it? Best advice< don't use bots,< and security system will not bother you.
Do any random player within game got banned? nop. Do majority players got banned? Nop. Thats mean game security script is not flawed. In order got get account suspended you need to get certain effect to trigger game security.
And the ones, the famous NWO players who got banned, share common thing, it's multiple charcters/accounts. Thats mean game security system though that they where type 2 bots. And thats it.
Game security didn't ban randomly< it's not like, uhh I am bored, lets ban x players... Security is software, and ban only when achieve some activities...
SO most players, are safe< And only bot users are in bad situation....
======================================================================== “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim. Gustave Le Bon. ==================================================
@bitt3rnightmar3, Bot users got affected, some hardcore players got affected. Majority players where not affected
Only some were not safe from that and none of us know if we will be safe in the future.
U want me to say, that some where not safe from game protection? And we are non of us safe from it? Best advice< don't use bots,< and security system will not bother you.
Do any random player within game got banned? nop. Do majority players got banned? Nop. Thats mean game security script is not flawed. In order got get account suspended you need to get certain effect to trigger game security.
And the ones, the famous NWO players who got banned, share common thing, it's multiple charcters/accounts. Thats mean game security system though that they where type 2 bots. And thats it.
Game security didn't ban randomly< it's not like, uhh I am bored, lets ban x players... Security is software, and ban only when achieve some activities...
SO most players, are safe< And only bot users are in bad situation....
That's a helluva lot of assumptions in one post - you don't have access to the data anymore than other players.
Just to be clear, I'm all for actions that remove botters and catch players who purchase from 3rd party sites, but I'm seeing a lot of numbers from both sides of the argument, but these numbers are pure conjecture as it seems that not even Cryptic know how many were actual botters.
These things need to be done better, there's no getting away from that, but Cryptic also need to help the players stay within the rules. If running more than a certain number of characters gets you flagged then Cryptic need to limit the number of possible accounts to what they consider acceptable. If having storage guilds or running a profession army or making loads of purchases/sales on the AH or many of the other things players frequently do, flags an account then the game itself has to be adjusted to encourage players to behave within acceptable parameters.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this is all Cryptics fault - I've personally known a couple of people that knowingly broke the rules and received a suspension when it should've been a ban - they then did it again. For rules to be effective, you need two things:
Predictability: Clear Rules and Clear Punishment Effective Policing: A system that accurately identifies wrong-doing and can flag borderline behaviour for follow-up analysis by an actual human. You can't go slapping bans on players until you're 100% sure they've committed an offence.
Statements from players about percentages/numbers, assuming facts about how things were done etc are all guesswork and usually based on personal bias.
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greywyndMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 7,093Arc User
Transparency is the main problem here. As long as they play stupid, no wonder people shake their heads. They have all the tools to clear up this mess, they just have to use them.
No, they really don't. They made a decision that impacted their business based on internal criteria. Full stop. They made a business decision. The only people they have to answer to are the people above them.
IF they answer some of the players concerns, good, but they are under zero obligation to do so.
I'm not looking for forgiveness, and I'm way past asking permission. Earth just lost her best defender, so we're here to fight. And if you want to stand in our way, we'll fight you too.
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
Bot users got affected, some hardcore players got affected. Majority players where not affected<. If you do not use bot, you are safe from that,,
Game security didn't ban randomly< it's not like, uhh I am bored, lets ban x players... Security is software, and ban only when achieve some activities...
SO most players, are safe< And only bot users are in bad situation.... """"""""
See, this is where we differ, I have issue with your use of the word most, all players should feel safe investing time and money into this game. And I also agree, game security did not ban randomly, where we differ on opinion is that it was given a filter that banned legitimate users.
Noone wants to see bots earn a dime in this game, anything that gets rid of them is great, but it's not great at all when legitimate users get banned and when we have no assurances we will not be banned on the next ban wave.
So while we agree that bots are bad and those that use them for an unfair advantage should accept that their activities are not welcome we differ on the opinion whether we believe some of those banned were banned wrongly. You are clearly of the mind that all accounts were justifiably banned, I beg to differ.
On a personal level, I do not like how the bans were handled, there was obviously no simulation of any kind beforehand. I do not like how the team has handled announcements (not their fault, to use their own words this is one of those times where they are just the messenger) and how public complaints were handled.
No, they really don't. They made a decision that impacted their business based on internal criteria. Full stop. They made a business decision. The only people they have to answer to are the people above them.
IF they answer some of the players concerns, good, but they are under zero obligation to do so.
Then they better hope their lack of transparency doesn't affect their business I guess. Also it certainly doesn't stop us from calling them out. Can't be too comfortable if you're browsing your own forum and game sources and being mentioned as coward and idiot all the time. Maybe they don't care as business, but personally? Some may have a thick skin, some may not.
I know some will crawl out of their holes and dissect this, but to me, everyone is responsible for PWE's actions, from the community mods to the CEO. And just as they are not obligated to present any evidence, I'm not obligated to not call all of them out all the time. I guess it's a fair trade then.
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
We understand players would like to discuss certain topics so we're letting this thread stand. Moderators have been informed to keep an eye on the conversation to ensure it remains constructive and civil and reserve the right to close or remove this thread if warranted.
Personal CM Note: As a CM, conversations and feedback are incredibly valuable so I look forward to continue reading your comments (And yes, I have been lurking outside these forums as well to read up on what you guys have to say). Which means that, if frustration levels are high, you can message me privately but keep attacks or profanity off this thread so it can remain.
And just as they are not obligated to present any evidence, I'm not obligated to not call all of them out all the time. I guess it's a fair trade then.
The one thing that absolutely will not change is giving "evidence" for bans for botting.
That's a universal rule for all MMO's. If you don't like it that's fine but you won't find a better deal anywhere else. Evidence to prove you were botting is a direct instruction manual to avoid detection again in the wrong hands and no company ever discloses the information.
Giving a list of actions which are botting and which are not is also an effort in futility no different than defining what is offensive and what is not. I could spend a lifetime writing down every way a person could write a sentence that is offensive and not cover a fraction of the possible offensive statements in the English language alone. You really do have to draw the line on defining stuff and tell people to use some of the sense which should be common.
It's the same thing with botting except you also can't predict all the methods people will try. Think of it like stealing. Laws don't define the methods of stealing, they define what stealing is and it's up to the person to know that just because they took the key instead of hotwiring the car it doesn't mean they didn't steal it.
You can't say this software is allowed and that software is not because it is more of an issue on how you use the software than what software you use. You can't define what is acceptable botting and what is not because, as I said before, it is impossible to predict every use.
Personally I am a fan of the old flatulence rule of "one keystroke, one key input." You can customize layouts however you want as long as one key's input is done with one keystroke. It's simple. You have a keyboard that let's you program a key to do your full combo with a delay between 5 keystrokes? That's nice but program the key to enter whatever key you want and do not set it up to enter 5 keystrokes for one key press.
That is the old flatulence rule though and companies don't use it anymore because too many people moan that it's unreasonable to ask them to < insert basic task. >
What we can do is to stress the importance of not doing anything on Friday other than emergency fixes/community orientated activities and the importance of refining their detection systems no matter how accurate Cryptic believes it to be.
I am sorry to those who felt the community team did not back them up but I am telling you in all seriousness that we can not intervene. We can push those that made this decision to learn from it but neither the Community Team or the developers themselves have any authority to intervene for any player individually. In the heat of the moment all we can do is tell people to contact support and work with them.
Edit - Apparently the other word for flatulence is in the filter...
kreatyveMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 10,545Community Moderator
To personally add to Ambi's statement, we as mods have collectively requested several times, that nothing like this happen on a Friday. I personally requested of Julia that this thread remain open as people do need a place to vent. That being said, we do have rules that must be followed. The only comments that have been removed from this thread have been due to 3 things - either flaming, discussing of individual bans, or discussing moderation. If you have questions about any of that, please contact one of us. Whether your feedback is positive or negative, that doesn't matter as long as you leave it in a manner that does not violate our forum rules.
My opinions are my own. I do not work for PWE or Cryptic. - Forum Rules - Protector's Enclave Discord - I play on Xbox Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official. Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
I cannot speak for anyone else but I can say I am not interested in evidence of botting or details of Crytptics filters. I understand that you do not want to give bot makers the means to make undetectable bots. I've said this before and I will probably repeat myself more times to come.
What is important to me is that I can go from ban wave to ban wave knowing I won't be next, or at least if I am next I will be treated promptly and politely and not under the assumption that I am a bot or an active cheater so that I can play the game I enjoy.
I don't know if anyone at Cryptic sees this ban wave as a success or not. Did it divert resources away from other projects to deal with?
Did it damage relations between Cryptic and the players? Do they have an idea how many players it upset? If they do is that number so low that it is finanically acceptable to repeat this every time there is a ban wave.
How many players are unhappy with how their feedback has been treated? How many are unhappy with how feedback has been given?
Not questions I will ever learn the answer to, nor that I need those answers. But I do hope they are just a couple of the many questions being asked.
At the end of the day, I would like to be treated with respect, dignity and as a person. I want to know that the time and money I spend in this game is important to the developers creating it and that they understand that I do so because the content is engaging and enriches the Dungeons and Dragons world that I have grown to love.
We don't need a blueprint for how they are detecting. All I want to know is this:
I have 50 plus toons in a single account. If I manually invoke them all 6 times a day and set professions on them 2 times a day...all manually...am I "botting" in the eyes of this anti cheat system? Is the system just a simple "If it walks like a duck" type system...or something more.
I don't particularly care about people's thoughts on that type of gameplay...you are welcome to your opinion.
I think this is what people worry about. This game is all about repetitive gameplay. From a log point of view, it's probably very easy for something done manually to look like a bot. "Nobody would set 450 profession tasks everyday manually so must be a bot." Well, you are wrong in at least one case.
Anyways
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myles08807Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 409Arc User
There's a small note at the bottom of my Enter World screen: "You have 19 of 26 Characters used." Am I to be judged by others, some in positions of power and others, merely players of a different style, for just that? I've been a D&D player since 1980. I have had adventures published by living campaigns and my horrible puns have tortured players from Maine on down to Louisiana. Not to put too fine a point on it, I LIVED in Neverwinter before many of my current comrades in this game were BORN.
Every one of my toons has a unique backstory, reasonably up-to-date equipment, and is playable at "fresh-70" content...and I routinely return to them to try out a new build, an interesting piece of found equipment, or (most often) for the thrill of remembering how to play a character type. Yes, 13 of them are at level 25 in Leadership. Yes, I invoke with every one of them. I also reinvest those gains in keeping them all current.
I cannot imagine a scenario in which what I do could be deemed taking unnatural advantage.
There's a small note at the bottom of my Enter World screen: "You have 19 of 26 Characters used." Am I to be judged by others, some in positions of power and others, merely players of a different style, for just that? I've been a D&D player since 1980. I have had adventures published by living campaigns and my horrible puns have tortured players from Maine on down to Louisiana. Not to put too fine a point on it, I LIVED in Neverwinter before many of my current comrades in this game were BORN.
Every one of my toons has a unique backstory, reasonably up-to-date equipment, and is playable at "fresh-70" content...and I routinely return to them to try out a new build, an interesting piece of found equipment, or (most often) for the thrill of remembering how to play a character type. Yes, 13 of them are at level 25 in Leadership. Yes, I invoke with every one of them. I also reinvest those gains in keeping them all current.
I cannot imagine a scenario in which what I do could be deemed taking unnatural advantage.
I have 12 toons, and I've never received negative feedback in-game about it. The reactions I usually get are on the order of "wow! which is your favorite?" 11 of them are level 70 and are playable in level-70 content (though I have Lia still wearing HV armor for the challenge of it). I rarely do a full invoke/professions reset on them all -- it's just too aggravating. I usually just do it on the one I'm playing that day and any alts that I'm forced to switch to.
I'm "forced" to switch at times because of the reason I have 12 alts in the first place: when I run out of bank space, I create another alt. To try to maintain my sanity I *try* to keep things organized: so I have my "keeper of RP", "keeper of insignias", "keeper of dyes", "keepers of mounts", "keepers of companions", "keeper of fashion", "keepers of unobtainable transmutes", and "keeper of eclectic miscellania". A couple (like my main) have so many BtC items that they can't be keepers of anything. In fact I'm out of space again and I'm mulling creating alt #13. I haven't been affected by this latest wave, and I have to believe that the criteria are more complicated than a mere character count.
(OT side note: devs, it would be really, really, REALLY awesome if we had something like a raffle/giveaway box where we could donate things like companions and mounts. For quite a while I was giving out free Powries to new guild members because I had so many -- enough to field both teams of a Powrie softball game).
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The one thing that absolutely will not change is giving "evidence" for bans for botting.
That's a universal rule for all MMO's. If you don't like it that's fine but you won't find a better deal anywhere else. Evidence to prove you were botting is a direct instruction manual to avoid detection again in the wrong hands and no company ever discloses the information.
Giving a list of actions which are botting and which are not is also an effort in futility no different than defining what is offensive and what is not. I could spend a lifetime writing down every way a person could write a sentence that is offensive and not cover a fraction of the possible offensive statements in the English language alone. You really do have to draw the line on defining stuff and tell people to use some of the sense which should be common.
Even if, there's still so much room for improvement in handling the situation. As you've correctly pointed out, they can absolutely choose to be either more or less restrictive when it comes to deciding what behavior is being punished. They clearly went with a very broad approach, maybe even a wrong one, and probably knew it would come at the expense of many legit players. That's a cheap shot.
If you wanna be a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> all right, but then show your manhood and state the facts as they are. Dedicated/Probation my <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. They messed up and released many because they were innocent.
What is important to me is that I can go from ban wave to ban wave knowing I won't be next, or at least if I am next I will be treated promptly and politely and not under the assumption that I am a bot or an active cheater so that I can play the game I enjoy.
THIS. I see people that I know are legitimate players; with many more toons than I will ever play getting banned...waiting a week to get a case heard to hear it might be another week to get a case heard and I think....if I was banned two weeks when I was innocent; would I be back? Maybe? Maybe not.
I don't need to know what actions will cause a false positive. I need to know that if I was ever falsely identified that I would be treated fairly with decency and my case would be handled quickly.
Sure, doing it on a Friday was a bad move...people have an entire weekend to stew and get more aggravated.....IF it was reacted to on Monday, it would be annoying...to those working Mon - Fri, its a matter of hours. To those banned needlessly, its 3 days. When it stretches beyond that? Not so cool.
I would say that you should not only NOT do this on a Friday; but, if you know you are doing an action such as a mass banning that will have false positives; you should also have the staff to manage the investigations in a timely manner that have been properly trained to handle the research quickly AND how to deal with the aggravated players.....because receiving a ban when you are innocent is aggravating, discouraging and demoralizing.
I would want my account back; for the principle of it; but,. I don't know how much I would want to play it if I was treated that shabbily.
Nice of ppl claiming, that no one except botters and some ppl were banned. You are wrong. If you think, that just some players were unbanned, you are wrong. If you think, that bans have been lifted out of kindness, you are wrong.
I will not discuss individual decisions, but I advice ppl, to talk to other players in game, before they claim anything as a fact.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
What is important to me is that I can go from ban wave to ban wave knowing I won't be next, or at least if I am next I will be treated promptly and politely and not under the assumption that I am a bot or an active cheater so that I can play the game I enjoy.
I understand completely. @tripsofthrymr and I are very keen about getting the developers to understand that is the biggest issue the community is having with this mass ban.
Only the developers know how many bots were banned, how many people were given a second chance and how many people were innocent. I don't agree with the choice of words to be leaning towards the side of infallibility because in my experience no detection system is flawless and there is always some collateral damage.
I do believe the vast majority of bans are extremely likely to be accurate. Nobody is going to go on the forums and say "good job you caught me!" They are either going to go into obscurity or claim innocence. Those with friends, though, are very likely to claim innocence out of shame if nothing else.
That doesn't mean there is no chance that some people were caught by the collateral damage though and regardless of the facts the community definitely feels like more innocents were caught than maybe there were.
So with that in mind I have a question for you all...
Are you more upset at the mass ban or at the message which didn't admit the possibility of fault?
Apologies to any of the devs reading this but if my hunch is correct this may be something you need too hear in order to avoid the same pitfalls in the future.
What is important to me is that I can go from ban wave to ban wave knowing I won't be next, or at least if I am next I will be treated promptly and politely and not under the assumption that I am a bot or an active cheater so that I can play the game I enjoy.
I understand completely. @tripsofthrymr and I are very keen about getting the developers to understand that is the biggest issue the community is having with this mass ban.
Only the developers know how many bots were banned, how many people were given a second chance and how many people were innocent. I don't agree with the choice of words to be leaning towards the side of infallibility because in my experience no detection system is flawless and there is always some collateral damage.
I do believe the vast majority of bans are extremely likely to be accurate. Nobody is going to go on the forums and say "good job you caught me!" They are either going to go into obscurity or claim innocence. Those with friends, though, are very likely to claim innocence out of shame if nothing else.
That doesn't mean there is no chance that some people were caught by the collateral damage though and regardless of the facts the community definitely feels like more innocents were caught than maybe there were.
So with that in mind I have a question for you all...
Are you more upset at the mass ban or at the message which didn't admit the possibility of fault?
Apologies to any of the devs reading this but if my hunch is correct this may be something you need too hear in order to avoid the same pitfalls in the future.
Im upset that the game is designed for bots and that legit players get banned doing stuff that could look like a bot was doing it. I have a friend that is a "confirmed" botter because he was praying manually. GG. And Im upset that they massban legit players just because they want to get rid of the bots. Banning my friends and other players does more damage than all the bots.
Game is going downhill and losing players. Kicking legit players out does not help. And even if some players are doing some shady stuff. Work on prevention rather than ban them. Or atleast add a warning system that highlights that what they are doing is against the rules. Because lets be honest, some things you do in this game looks legit but cryptic thinks otherwise. Its mostly guesswork from the players.
Is praying manually on 50 chars legit or not? Is doing professions on 50 chars manually legit or not? Is it legit to manually run some boring content like arcane reservoir over and over again against the rules? We wont know until we get banned for it. And the problem that I see here is that if these things ARE legit, how do cryptic know if its a bot or a player doing it the legit way...? My guess is, they dont and thats why my friends are banned.
(Im not doing any of this, I rather stick a fork in my eye than do boring stuff like that).
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
edited May 2017
I am upset that people I know were caught by the ban.
I am upset that people I know are still banned.
I am upset that with how my feedback and others has been dealt with on this forum.
I am upset with the lack of feedback from Cryptic on the bans and what they are doing about them.
EDIT: I am upset at the wording of feedback given by Cryptic.
I am upset because I don't know when the next ban wave happens I do not know if Cryptic will determine that my playstyle constitutes cheating/automated behaviour.
I am upset because I want to play by the rules, but if I do not know what those rules are how can I be expected to know them.
I am NOT upset that cheaters and accounts created by automated software has been banned. I understand their activities range from the selfish to the criminal and harm the community and the economy. Such as players losing all their gear to the players losing access to great features like gateway and skill nodes.
I totally agree with what @ejziponken said. Sometimes I think cryptic wants to get rid of player to finally be able to shut down the server. All the things they did to punish botters ended up with punishing legit players and makes it harder for them.
Comments
You mention that 90% of all prominent members are botting or have done so in the past, what is you evidence for this? Also, do you believe that collateral damage is an acceptable business model? Do you believe this because you don't currently know anyone who you believe plays fairly who got banned?
On the next ban wave if you or any of said friends found yourselves in the 10% and did get banned what would your reaction be then and do you think your views would change?
If it took 2 weeks to get unbanned would you want recompense for lost VIP time/Epic Keys/Enchanted keys? Would the experience encourage or discourage you to spend more money with this company?
Have you ever been unfairly or poorly treated by a business? If so what was your reaction? Did you stop giving them your custom or maybe switched to another provider? What is the financial cost of losing customers and what is the financial cost of those customers negative feedback on other potenial customers?
What is the criteria to meet the term dedicated player? How many dollars must you spend per week and must you also play X amount of hours. Do you believe that all customers are equal but some customers are more equal than others?
There are also multiple issues surrounding this one.
--
I'll never retrace my steps.
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@dread4moor I see why you would blame botters here, but swinging the nerf bat was the most convenient route the devs could take. Many of us have always challenged this approach because it would leave a nerfed area to legit players while the botters just moved on exploiting the next possible thing. This is as much on the devs.
> @weaver936 Not saying you're wrong, but economy dynamics are hard to oversee for most, hence it's not something they credit to botters.
>
> @dread4moor I see why you would blame botters here, but swinging the nerf bat was the most convenient route the devs could take. Many of us have always challenged this approach because it would leave a nerfed area to legit players while the botters just moved on exploiting the next possible thing. This is as much on the devs.
I did not support the response in any way.
One can acknowledge the impact of botting on player's QoL while being critical of current antibotting methods. They are not mutually exclusive.
On the contrary. I lost two friends who I personally brought into the game because of last weekend's events... low-level casual players incapable of botting.
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
Bot users got affected, some hardcore players got affected.
Majority players where not affected<.
If you do not use bot, you are safe from that,,
There are couple type of bots,
1) gold spammers. Spam chat, mail, inviting players in friendlist and etc..
2)Invokers< they log in, invoke, claim rewards, some of stuffs send via mail to main character/account.
Players who where affected by this ban wave, where because security system though that they are bots who invoking.
3) craft/proffesion bots. > log in, start x crafting, goes offline. Nothing special..
4)Bot dungeon/content assitance,
bot programed to follow group leader(real player) and provide buffs/debuffs.. Usually can be notice them due too perfect movement how they follow group leader.. As example> if programed to stay in 2 feets range, it will stay in 2feets range in any case. Thats mean group leader start walk, and when reach 2 feets range< bot start walk too. < once group leader dies< bot execute command follow(2feets) and try get near leader.. In dungeon boss fight, usually these bots start walking to wall< or get in traps<...
5)zombies.
They are used to fill players in party. Similar to dungeon assister . Yet they mostly are exploited for pvp points/shards farming.
They stay in x area, capture dominations x spot, move to other, And never fight back... So it's easy s pvp score boosting. and if happens 2 bots parties met each other. Well. bot user get pvp shards anyways. So it;s win win case.
---------------------
There is nothing special about these guys..
Some stay silent and keep using them.
Some start complain that how dared staff implement security measurements. Why they didn't inform players for that, and what kind system is running and etc..
==============
AS for way to deal with such bots. well there are websites/ forums where u can get them.. If I would be part of staff,, I would make fake bot, with malware code inside. Once player use bot, it send ID/password to x website with his Id/passw, and staff would know who used it.. <
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
Do you have data from the developers (which obviously isn't very reliable) or are you just guessing?
> @bitt3rnightmar3,
> Bot users got affected, some hardcore players got affected.
> Majority players where not affected<.
> If you do not use bot, you are safe from that,,
In fact, looking at the numbers in this thread and other venues, I'd say it's rather small, ... it is clear that there's just a number of vocal people drumming this horse on.
> Yes, you have a point, if people had been more vocal, there would be a greater number of posts and threads on the matter.
True. There are very few posts... therefore few people were affected...
I guess you're right.
Can't think of any other reason why we don't see complaint posts....
Anyone complaining therefore are trouble-makers "banging the drum".
That is the only possible explanation.
Edit:
/s
I am Took.
"Full plate and packing steel" in NW since 2013.
Hey, I know how to shut everyone up. PWE just has to fill out these numbers:
Total banned accounts:
Total released accounts on probation:
Total released accounts because a manual verification showed inconclusive evidence:
Transparency is the main problem here. As long as they play stupid, no wonder people shake their heads. They have all the tools to clear up this mess, they just have to use them.
Moderator edited out flaming.
Best advice< don't use bots,< and security system will not bother you.
Do any random player within game got banned? nop.
Do majority players got banned? Nop.
Thats mean game security script is not flawed.
In order got get account suspended you need to get certain effect to trigger game security.
And the ones, the famous NWO players who got banned, share common thing, it's multiple charcters/accounts.
Thats mean game security system though that they where type 2 bots. And thats it.
Game security didn't ban randomly< it's not like, uhh I am bored, lets ban x players... Security is software, and ban only when achieve some activities...
SO most players, are safe< And only bot users are in bad situation....
“The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
Gustave Le Bon.
==================================================
Just to be clear, I'm all for actions that remove botters and catch players who purchase from 3rd party sites, but I'm seeing a lot of numbers from both sides of the argument, but these numbers are pure conjecture as it seems that not even Cryptic know how many were actual botters.
These things need to be done better, there's no getting away from that, but Cryptic also need to help the players stay within the rules. If running more than a certain number of characters gets you flagged then Cryptic need to limit the number of possible accounts to what they consider acceptable. If having storage guilds or running a profession army or making loads of purchases/sales on the AH or many of the other things players frequently do, flags an account then the game itself has to be adjusted to encourage players to behave within acceptable parameters.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying this is all Cryptics fault - I've personally known a couple of people that knowingly broke the rules and received a suspension when it should've been a ban - they then did it again. For rules to be effective, you need two things:
Predictability: Clear Rules and Clear Punishment
Effective Policing: A system that accurately identifies wrong-doing and can flag borderline behaviour for follow-up analysis by an actual human. You can't go slapping bans on players until you're 100% sure they've committed an offence.
Statements from players about percentages/numbers, assuming facts about how things were done etc are all guesswork and usually based on personal bias.
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IF they answer some of the players concerns, good, but they are under zero obligation to do so.
@bloodyspamer
Bot users got affected, some hardcore players got affected.
Majority players where not affected<.
If you do not use bot, you are safe from that,,
Game security didn't ban randomly< it's not like, uhh I am bored, lets ban x players... Security is software, and ban only when achieve some activities...
SO most players, are safe< And only bot users are in bad situation....
""""""""
See, this is where we differ, I have issue with your use of the word most, all players should feel safe investing time and money into this game. And I also agree, game security did not ban randomly, where we differ on opinion is that it was given a filter that banned legitimate users.
Noone wants to see bots earn a dime in this game, anything that gets rid of them is great, but it's not great at all when legitimate users get banned and when we have no assurances we will not be banned on the next ban wave.
So while we agree that bots are bad and those that use them for an unfair advantage should accept that their activities are not welcome we differ on the opinion whether we believe some of those banned were banned wrongly. You are clearly of the mind that all accounts were justifiably banned, I beg to differ.
On a personal level, I do not like how the bans were handled, there was obviously no simulation of any kind beforehand. I do not like how the team has handled announcements (not their fault, to use their own words this is one of those times where they are just the messenger) and how public complaints were handled.
Then they better hope their lack of transparency doesn't affect their business I guess. Also it certainly doesn't stop us from calling them out. Can't be too comfortable if you're browsing your own forum and game sources and being mentioned as coward and idiot all the time. Maybe they don't care as business, but personally? Some may have a thick skin, some may not.
I know some will crawl out of their holes and dissect this, but to me, everyone is responsible for PWE's actions, from the community mods to the CEO. And just as they are not obligated to present any evidence, I'm not obligated to not call all of them out all the time. I guess it's a fair trade then.
That's a universal rule for all MMO's. If you don't like it that's fine but you won't find a better deal anywhere else. Evidence to prove you were botting is a direct instruction manual to avoid detection again in the wrong hands and no company ever discloses the information.
Giving a list of actions which are botting and which are not is also an effort in futility no different than defining what is offensive and what is not. I could spend a lifetime writing down every way a person could write a sentence that is offensive and not cover a fraction of the possible offensive statements in the English language alone. You really do have to draw the line on defining stuff and tell people to use some of the sense which should be common.
It's the same thing with botting except you also can't predict all the methods people will try. Think of it like stealing. Laws don't define the methods of stealing, they define what stealing is and it's up to the person to know that just because they took the key instead of hotwiring the car it doesn't mean they didn't steal it.
You can't say this software is allowed and that software is not because it is more of an issue on how you use the software than what software you use. You can't define what is acceptable botting and what is not because, as I said before, it is impossible to predict every use.
Personally I am a fan of the old flatulence rule of "one keystroke, one key input." You can customize layouts however you want as long as one key's input is done with one keystroke. It's simple. You have a keyboard that let's you program a key to do your full combo with a delay between 5 keystrokes? That's nice but program the key to enter whatever key you want and do not set it up to enter 5 keystrokes for one key press.
That is the old flatulence rule though and companies don't use it anymore because too many people moan that it's unreasonable to ask them to < insert basic task. >
What we can do is to stress the importance of not doing anything on Friday other than emergency fixes/community orientated activities and the importance of refining their detection systems no matter how accurate Cryptic believes it to be.
I am sorry to those who felt the community team did not back them up but I am telling you in all seriousness that we can not intervene. We can push those that made this decision to learn from it but neither the Community Team or the developers themselves have any authority to intervene for any player individually. In the heat of the moment all we can do is tell people to contact support and work with them.
Edit - Apparently the other word for flatulence is in the filter...
Any of my comments not posted in orange are based on my own personal opinion and not official.
Any messages written in orange are official moderation messages. Signature images are now fixed!
What is important to me is that I can go from ban wave to ban wave knowing I won't be next, or at least if I am next I will be treated promptly and politely and not under the assumption that I am a bot or an active cheater so that I can play the game I enjoy.
I don't know if anyone at Cryptic sees this ban wave as a success or not. Did it divert resources away from other projects to deal with?
Did it damage relations between Cryptic and the players? Do they have an idea how many players it upset? If they do is that number so low that it is finanically acceptable to repeat this every time there is a ban wave.
How many players are unhappy with how their feedback has been treated? How many are unhappy with how feedback has been given?
Not questions I will ever learn the answer to, nor that I need those answers. But I do hope they are just a couple of the many questions being asked.
At the end of the day, I would like to be treated with respect, dignity and as a person. I want to know that the time and money I spend in this game is important to the developers creating it and that they understand that I do so because the content is engaging and enriches the Dungeons and Dragons world that I have grown to love.
I have 50 plus toons in a single account. If I manually invoke them all 6 times a day and set professions on them 2 times a day...all manually...am I "botting" in the eyes of this anti cheat system? Is the system just a simple "If it walks like a duck" type system...or something more.
I don't particularly care about people's thoughts on that type of gameplay...you are welcome to your opinion.
I think this is what people worry about. This game is all about repetitive gameplay. From a log point of view, it's probably very easy for something done manually to look like a bot. "Nobody would set 450 profession tasks everyday manually so must be a bot." Well, you are wrong in at least one case.
Anyways
Every one of my toons has a unique backstory, reasonably up-to-date equipment, and is playable at "fresh-70" content...and I routinely return to them to try out a new build, an interesting piece of found equipment, or (most often) for the thrill of remembering how to play a character type. Yes, 13 of them are at level 25 in Leadership. Yes, I invoke with every one of them. I also reinvest those gains in keeping them all current.
I cannot imagine a scenario in which what I do could be deemed taking unnatural advantage.
I'm "forced" to switch at times because of the reason I have 12 alts in the first place: when I run out of bank space, I create another alt. To try to maintain my sanity I *try* to keep things organized: so I have my "keeper of RP", "keeper of insignias", "keeper of dyes", "keepers of mounts", "keepers of companions", "keeper of fashion", "keepers of unobtainable transmutes", and "keeper of eclectic miscellania". A couple (like my main) have so many BtC items that they can't be keepers of anything. In fact I'm out of space again and I'm mulling creating alt #13. I haven't been affected by this latest wave, and I have to believe that the criteria are more complicated than a mere character count.
(OT side note: devs, it would be really, really, REALLY awesome if we had something like a raffle/giveaway box where we could donate things like companions and mounts. For quite a while I was giving out free Powries to new guild members because I had so many -- enough to field both teams of a Powrie softball game).
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Even if, there's still so much room for improvement in handling the situation. As you've correctly pointed out, they can absolutely choose to be either more or less restrictive when it comes to deciding what behavior is being punished. They clearly went with a very broad approach, maybe even a wrong one, and probably knew it would come at the expense of many legit players. That's a cheap shot.
If you wanna be a <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> all right, but then show your manhood and state the facts as they are. Dedicated/Probation my <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font>. They messed up and released many because they were innocent.
I don't need to know what actions will cause a false positive. I need to know that if I was ever falsely identified that I would be treated fairly with decency and my case would be handled quickly.
Sure, doing it on a Friday was a bad move...people have an entire weekend to stew and get more aggravated.....IF it was reacted to on Monday, it would be annoying...to those working Mon - Fri, its a matter of hours. To those banned needlessly, its 3 days. When it stretches beyond that? Not so cool.
I would say that you should not only NOT do this on a Friday; but, if you know you are doing an action such as a mass banning that will have false positives; you should also have the staff to manage the investigations in a timely manner that have been properly trained to handle the research quickly AND how to deal with the aggravated players.....because receiving a ban when you are innocent is aggravating, discouraging and demoralizing.
I would want my account back; for the principle of it; but,. I don't know how much I would want to play it if I was treated that shabbily.
I will not discuss individual decisions, but I advice ppl, to talk to other players in game, before they claim anything as a fact.
Only the developers know how many bots were banned, how many people were given a second chance and how many people were innocent. I don't agree with the choice of words to be leaning towards the side of infallibility because in my experience no detection system is flawless and there is always some collateral damage.
I do believe the vast majority of bans are extremely likely to be accurate. Nobody is going to go on the forums and say "good job you caught me!" They are either going to go into obscurity or claim innocence. Those with friends, though, are very likely to claim innocence out of shame if nothing else.
That doesn't mean there is no chance that some people were caught by the collateral damage though and regardless of the facts the community definitely feels like more innocents were caught than maybe there were.
So with that in mind I have a question for you all...
Are you more upset at the mass ban or at the message which didn't admit the possibility of fault?
Apologies to any of the devs reading this but if my hunch is correct this may be something you need too hear in order to avoid the same pitfalls in the future.
Game is going downhill and losing players. Kicking legit players out does not help. And even if some players are doing some shady stuff. Work on prevention rather than ban them. Or atleast add a warning system that highlights that what they are doing is against the rules. Because lets be honest, some things you do in this game looks legit but cryptic thinks otherwise. Its mostly guesswork from the players.
Is praying manually on 50 chars legit or not? Is doing professions on 50 chars manually legit or not? Is it legit to manually run some boring content like arcane reservoir over and over again against the rules? We wont know until we get banned for it. And the problem that I see here is that if these things ARE legit, how do cryptic know if its a bot or a player doing it the legit way...? My guess is, they dont and thats why my friends are banned.
(Im not doing any of this, I rather stick a fork in my eye than do boring stuff like that).
▁ ▂ ▄ ▅ ▆ ▇ █ Gankdalf The Icehole █ ▇ ▆ ▅ ▄ ▂ ▁
I am upset that people I know are still banned.
I am upset that with how my feedback and others has been dealt with on this forum.
I am upset with the lack of feedback from Cryptic on the bans and what they are doing about them.
EDIT: I am upset at the wording of feedback given by Cryptic.
I am upset because I don't know when the next ban wave happens I do not know if Cryptic will determine that my playstyle constitutes cheating/automated behaviour.
I am upset because I want to play by the rules, but if I do not know what those rules are how can I be expected to know them.
I am NOT upset that cheaters and accounts created by automated software has been banned. I understand their activities range from the selfish to the criminal and harm the community and the economy. Such as players losing all their gear to the players losing access to great features like gateway and skill nodes.
I too lost friends who never botted.