Now, on to the those claiming that the "this is a bug" is a lie. It is not. The Moderators were told early on just after Module 3 that being able to open a chest and not take the contents but keep your key was indeed a bug. That the decline button was there for those who did not want the loot, not for those who did not want to consume their key. However, as this wasn't something of a real issue and there was a clique of people claiming it was an exploit to look and not take, it was deemed best to remain silent on the issue, lest we fuel a group of player's crusade to name and shame folks for "exploiting." In short, years ago, it was indeed deemed a bug but was not pursued as an exploit.
So, can we now please move on from this whole claim that they are lieing about it being a bug? Such does nothing to add to productive feedback. Thanks!
Zebular - I've had a lot of respect of the work you put in. But frankly - you are making a big mistake by trying to justify this.
To show why I remain of my previous view despite your elaboration let me unpack what you are saying (in the quote above and further on) a little: 1. You are saying that not losing a key if you decline was an unintended feature, i.e. a bug and this was well known back in mod 3 (over 2 years ago). This means the design expectation was that the loot on offer is acceptable for the keys. This is clearly not the case (the loot even used to be worse) and this is even confirmed in the offending post (as why else improve the rewards). Whatever the original origin of the feature it became accepted and completely integrated into the game - both in terms of loot design and even in terms of maintenance. Let's not forget when this "bug" was not working it got fixed again. In short - calling it a bug is in any conventional sense of the word is not true.
2. You are saying it was not fixed at the time because it "wasn't something of a real issue". You are giving us no reason why this issue has now become real (and frankly I doubt this would have been hard to fix as soon as someone noticed it given you already have a "you peek you lose" feature in Dread ring). I don't believe anyone's behaviour in dungeons has been different at all and you even have a box in FBI that attempts to circumvent this feature by having built in additional RNG. In truth - this has never been an issue because it was an accepted part of the game by the majority (unlike what the post says) including game designers and mods.
3. You are also that as it did not have a big impact you stayed silent to avoid people were calling each other exploiters etc. So instead Cryptic as a company have now done the same thing. I wouldn't have minded people coming out and saying "it was never in our original plans to have it work this way, but we want to fix the rewards and need to make this change to do that". But Cryptic have made the untrue statement that this was known to or used by a minority and that it needs to be removed to be fair to others. That IS calling us exploiters whether you like to see it that way or not. And yes - all of the above amounts to me being one extraordinarily unhappy costumer who feels his investment (financial and time) looks like it has been an incredibly poor one all of a sudden.
In short - please don't defend the indefensible. I strongly suggest an apology be forthcoming from whoever scripted this stupid statement. Then there may be room to "move on" and be "productive". And as to productive statements - people come to this game because it is DUNGEONS and Dragons. There needs to be real attention to making dungeons worthwhile and enjoyable. But anyway - let's look at that again when there's been some truth about the above.
No, he's trying to steer the thread, as a moderator should, in a direction where we can give feedback that the devs can use.
But to be honest right now am so mad 30 pages can be condensed in a short statement.
The loot sucks, what on earth makes you think I am gonna spend zen on it?
I understand and agree that the devs need feedback on the key issue. It's just not the only issue. There is another one - whether they lied. I have feedback the devs can use on that issue too: - make a statement in response to all this discussion. The silence isn't making anything better, and the silence may be making things worse. - if you lied, then apologize without any spin or BS. Just say "We tried to lie; we're sorry; we'll do better." Seriously it would suck for them in the short term but at least they stand a chance then at regaining some of my trust. I doubt it, but hey, that's how I feel. - don't ignore or try to suppress an issue like whether or not some members of the community believe you lied about something. Trying to steer the thread away from something like that makes it look more like a coverup and misdirection. "Hey, don't argue about that issue, argue about this other one instead!" The truth is, we can discuss both. Maybe it needs to be two separate threads, but we can discuss both just fine.
Well, I'm not going to debate about the lie/ poor worded statement anymore. We all know they are going to force their changes on us, no matter what. However, I do not understand and cannot accept that keys are consumable items. You don't open your apartment or car door once and your key just breaks or magically disappears. Also, if you look at the icons of the keys they clearly seem to be out of metal and not of wax or plastic. Even if they upgrade the poor loot within the dungeon chests, it still remains illogical that a key is a consumable item.
I suggest they either make keys permanent items (as in real life) but hard to acquire, being forced to pay a little fortune to obtain them and so it will take a few dozen of dungeon runs until they begin to pay off. Or make those keys like stones of health and add charges to them, that way the key represents kind of a "permanent" item but of course, just like all items, will slowly decay with each use until the point where it cannot be used any longer.
Implicit or explicit. Intentional or unintentional. It doesn't matter - the result is the same. That button has been in the game for more than 2 years. TWO YEARS. At this point in time, it's completely irrelevant whether in early 2014 it was a mistake. If that was a mistake, and they decided to just leave it alone anyway, then they should have kept it on a Known Issues list (you know, the one they don't have like GOOD software companies provide), as well as stated directly that, while the Decline button allows players to do something they didn't intend, they're going to leave it as is for now anyway (you know, customer communication - that other thing that good companies have)
Because it was what it was, it doesn't matter now, after two years, that it wasn't originally intended. It's become the REALITY of the game. To now, two years later, to claim it's just some exploited bug is absolutely disingenuous. It's not like this is some glitch that, when someone uses it, really could have any notion that what they're doing is even wrong. It's not. Look at the image I posted. It says "Decline" - what the heck OTHER than Decline was it supposed to mean? So you can't say other exploits or glitches are in the same category here - they're not. No reasonable player would have any reason to consider this a bug or exploit and only "secret" communications can make that otherwise.
Frankly, I don't believe what they told you is the truth even back then. I don't believe it's the truth now.
Be all that as it may.... at the very least (THE VERY LEAST), they should leave this mechanic in the game until they're ready to provide whatever big improvement to the loot system they're planning to provide. Then, an ONLY then should they fix this bug revise this FEATURE.
Bug, not a bug. Doesn't really matter. What matters is that the free peek was one of the few redeeming qualities of this money sucking game. Seriously, you have to pay for keys for virtually everything. This will destroy grinding for decent loot. The second chests are a joke as it is.
I will be quitting this game if this change goes into effect, UNLESS the loot in those chests is DRASTICALLY improved or the time to make keys is significantly reduced. Maybe every 2 hours instead of 20 hours. Are you kidding me? One key a day?
Not long ago just few years back, peddler in town selling keys, claiming it can get vast wealth and legendary rewards, and nearby, a great warrior/part treasure hunter heard this. "is this true for legendary treasures?" warrior asked. "Why of course it is!" "okay then, how much?", warrior knowing he only had 30 gold coins and work hard clearing some old caves not far from where he was. Peddlar replied, "just 10 gold each" and sold 1 key.
hours later, warrior fought hard in bandit camp hideout, after hearing bandits rob some caravans and local merchants, thinking it may have about 50g to 200g or more which was claimed by victims reports, finally he reach boss ringleader and slew him, he used a key and opened, and he was shocked with dissappointed, just few silvers and some junks, he search around for anything hidden, he found none.
next day, he went to see peddler for another key. "Oh, tough luck?" peddler asked "yeah, maybe it was wrong bandit camp, need another key" warrior paid another 10 golds and then left for next target location.
next place he went to the crypt, heard about long dead old warlord had gathered wealth on his raids, wore shiny armor and a sword that hold some enchantment gem. warrior fought some undeads with ease and finally reach a resting place of warlord, it said, "Who disturb my tomb?" as it rose up for warrior to see, only to see all rusty and gem no longer enchanted, decayed by ages.
Warrior defeat the undead warlord and inspected a small box in warlord's coffin, and opened and saw shiny copper necklace that almost worth 5 silvers, he began to get upset and went home.
on 3rd day, he bought a key, his last 10 gold coins, and peddler said "better luck next time!"
at the campsite, he studied the map carefully, and discovered a lost ruin of old wizard tower in forest, then went to investigate. nearly an hour of searching in the old tower, he found well preserved strongbox and unlocked, and saw an old wizard book, he couldnt read it, decided to bring to sage master.
Sage admitted his apologies to warrior, "it was just a dairy, nothing value".
in warrior thoughts, " I have been ROBBED!, that peddler is a thief! two-faced conniving liar!" and heading to confront peddler on his way, in his murderous rage. Peddler who sold the keys was nowhere to be found in town, townfolks said he fled.
story ended.
how dare they sell keys to us and we keep getting junks and they take away our rights to save the keys when the chests are pure junks! keys cost so much ADs and time to make them by crafts.
sound like they say "Too Bad! Better Luck Next Time!"
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
Dont be pedantic with stupid comments on zeb is not the boss. Also arrogant to assume your line of feedback is the right direction. Last i checked this was an open forum, not jumpingmonks guaranteed get a dev reply topic.
Personally i feel any1 involved with knowledge of declinebuggate has lost credibility. What else has he not told us, what else are they holding back...
So he is the boss? Or he isn't?
I'm not here asking for a dev to respond and I am certainly not trying to give some false hope that if you do things my way a dev will respond.
My only goal here is to help deflect the attacks on ourselves and our moderators and have it directed where it belongs.
beckylunaticMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 14,231Arc User
These are a few serious suggestions for how to show good faith effort to improve looting when keys will be auto-consumed and to repair community relations.
- Re-evaluating drop rates in existing content, not just a nebulous "oooh, maybe we can design better rewards in the future". If you have kept the drop rates so defeatingly low because players could keep using the same key until they got something decent, this needs to stop immediately. If you must consume your key every time you open a chest, that chest had darned well better have a solid chance of dropping something decent. IMO, a start would be a minimum of an epic ring in each Underdark bonus chest, for example. +1/2 rings still possible from the auto-reward, and *not* with an increased drop chance. The RNG still allowing a +3 ring and there being so many types of rings in the pool means that there's still a high chance of not getting what you wanted, but the odds are still greatly improved by removing a huge amount of the trash. Chances of artifact drops from bonus chests must be much increased as well. You cannot make this change and ignore the fact that you've designed the loot to be 99% GARBAGE based on working around players being able to reject said garbage.
-Reduced cost of Legendary Dragon Keys is still too much without substantial adjustments in other areas. Needs to be balanced against probable value of loot, but also against how players are spending their time. If you can use 10 keys in a night of gaming, someone who pays *real money* has just spent five dollars. You want us to play every day? That's not sustainable. Check your expectations.
- VIP dungeon keys should work in more types of content. At the absolute bare minimum, they should function in levelling dungeons. It's been dumb since the advent of VIP that they don't. Increased access to Adventurer seals and blue gear isn't going to break anything, and the AD cost of a key that works in levelling dungeons is shameful. Incidentally, the free Daily Dungeon key should now be available when Cloak Tower unlocks, not when Cragmire does. Other changes to keys might negate the need for more than this, but if you only changed ONE THING, then converting the existing per diem keys to a skeleton key would be something.
-VIP per diem rewards should include a Legendary Dragon Key or Keys at some tier(s). I am thinking it would be not overdone if it was only a per-account reward like the lockbox key, but perhaps incremented in quantity as tiered rewards. Going all the way up to 5/day/account at rank 12 would be great, though perhaps asking too much. I'd say no less than 3 though. VIP has undeniably lost value for players due to various changes to the t-bar store and AD gain, though it's still a great convenience. Adding value back to VIP would soften the blow of the key change, AND of the changes that have depreciated VIP itself.
- Respect our inventory. The number of different kinds of craftable keys is ludicrous. Anyone looking at the list in the first post can see that. Legendary Dragon Keys were a space-saving feature in addition to their other functions. System overhauls could include changing all campaign tasks to craft a universal "campaign chest key" that can open any bonus chest, and/or providing storage for keys. A generic campaign chest key would add flexibility for players who could take the key they made from several campaigns but only use it in Castle Never, for example. Players are still limited by their access to campaign currencies.
-Respect our time. Reduce timers on key-crafting to seconds. Players are sufficiently gated by currency gain (which our Strongholds and non-key campaign tasks still hunger for as well). If someone wants to craft a bunch of keys in succession so they can spam content on a day they have more time, just let them. It's not going to break anything.
I know that a few of my suggestions tied to VIP are encouraging cash shop engagement in a different way, but heck, it's not like I don't think anything in the game should be monetized. But I want to see spending encouraged by positive reinforcement, not negative.
silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
An apology does nothing..
Why does anyone want one.
I dont give three effing figs about a apology, I dont care if they lied or they didnt lie.
I want a over-all , systematic review of QOL, loot, and grinding that has brought these issues to a boiling point. THEY have taken, taken , taken and giving HAMSTER over HAMSTER over HAMSTER for the last few months, if the game continues in this direction, it will be ALL RNG .. with no real progress.
This is long overdue, who CARES about a Im sorry, throw your big boy britches on and ACTUALLY ask for some change to their stupid systems.
You also should ignore that MOD, his comments and whatever else he says, he is just pro company, that is his bent.. he also doesn't engage in end game stuff much, so his opinion on this stuff is pretty invalid, stop engaging him in useless arguments, who cares if he is right or wrong.. its the same as the lying aspect.. IT DOESNT matter. IT simply doesnt matter, stop allowing him to take over the thread, by ignoring him.
I will accept one mods opinion, only because I know he runs some of this stuff and that is ironzergs.. even though, we again dont always agree on stuff.
THIS is our one oppurtunity to get some stuff straightened out.. an apology does nothing.. a apology just leaves status quo , with inventory, gating, rng and other factors THAT shouldve been fixed over the last 6 months.
They are too busy monetizing everything .. and not enough making their customers a bit happier.
Wow @jumpingmorks what do you think...so CMs dont have any involvement in the dev process such as ideas or feedback. Paid or not he is a part of the team so stop with your pedantic comments.
Your only goal seems to be to get every1 in the jumpingmorks direction.
No, you're putting words into my mouth. What I find astonishing is how folks outright call them liars when they don't even know the truth and that is why I decided to try and clear that up. Yet now, I am seemingly the target for speaking the truth, which is fine. I just find it astonishing again that at first, folks claim "lie" and then when the truth explained, it is like-wise ridiculed. Shar'd if you do, Shar'd if you don't.
The reason it's a "danged if you do, danged if you don't" situation right now for you is that even if it wasn't a lie (and it really looks like a lie to me), but even if it wasn't, there are a ton of other reasons why this change is bad for everyone unless they drastically improve the loot and drop tables. So they're either lying or are incompetent devs even beyond what I thought was possible for a team that has maintained an mmo for this long.
Let's say it was a bug. How many chests have been peaked into and not taken since this bug was introduced? Hundreds of thousands if not millions, right? And they'd really let it go this whole time, not to mention introducing new dungeons with this bug, and introducing new keys for chests with this bug, introducing the game on new platforms with this bug, letting so many chests be peaked into if they didn't design it like that?
That is so absurd that either this is a lie or they are incompetent beyond belief. Danged if you do, danged if you don't. This is just bad all around, and the company is still silent.
Ask yourself this, if truth and honesty were on their side, would they have been silent for so long in response to the community's reaction about all this? I find that even more difficult to believe.
No it goes further than that. Not only is Zebular telling the truth but according to devs we have all been actively exploiting this bug since it became an issue.
We are exploiters. We have cheated the system to gain an unfair advantage and have done so for several mods. We should probably be banned alongside all those that ran their bot armies to farm rank 5 enchants.
Really poor choice of words as using the word bug does have that connotation. Trust me, we're all unhappy about that. It was not working as intended but they chose not to fix it at the time when we forwarded that you could opt not to consume a key after you looked at the loot options.
Thank you for saying that. I wish the people responsible for the original wording would come forward and actually fess up. And I seriously hope they learn that you cannot treat your costumers this way. Or frankly anyone you want to continue to respect you.
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
Wow @jumpingmorks what do you think...so CMs dont have any involvement in the dev process such as ideas or feedback. Paid or not he is a part of the team so stop with your pedantic comments.
Your only goal seems to be to get every1 in the jumpingmorks direction.
Like I said, I don't care, what I do care about is clearly written here over several pages. If you are angry and just want to hurl abuse at someone who will respond feel free to pm me, otherwise trading barbs adds nothing to this discussion.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
Guys you are playing exactly into what he wants.. just stop posting about him, with him, or anything, he is just trying to get this thread closed.
If I could get his posts removed I would, but I cant.
JUST ignore him.
This is simply not the issue, who gives three effs about a mod who barely plays anything in the end game.. just stop it.
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jaysun1977Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 177Arc User
Now, on to the those claiming that the "this is a bug" is a lie. It is not. The Moderators were told early on just after Module 3 that being able to open a chest and not take the contents but keep your key was indeed a bug. That the decline button was there for those who did not want the loot, not for those who did not want to consume their key. However, as this wasn't something of a real issue and there was a clique of people claiming it was an exploit to look and not take, it was deemed best to remain silent on the issue, lest we fuel a group of player's crusade to name and shame folks for "exploiting." In short, years ago, it was indeed deemed a bug but was not pursued as an exploit.
So, can we now please move on from this whole claim that they are lieing about it being a bug? Such does nothing to add to productive feedback. Thanks!
Problem is, Zebular: I don't believe a word of it! Not without proof and maybe not even then. The history of blatant lies from Cryptic is simply too overwhelming at this point.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
This is what Im saying, he is trying to get it closed by flaming and trolling.
I have no idea why you ANY of you are engaging with him.
These are a few serious suggestions for how to show good faith effort to improve looting when keys will be auto-consumed and to repair community relations.
- Re-evaluating drop rates in existing content, not just a nebulous "oooh, maybe we can design better rewards in the future". If you have kept the drop rates so defeatingly low because players could keep using the same key until they got something decent, this needs to stop immediately. If you must consume your key every time you open a chest, that chest had darned well better have a solid chance of dropping something decent. IMO, a start would be a minimum of an epic ring in each Underdark bonus chest, for example. +1/2 rings still possible from the auto-reward, and *not* with an increased drop chance. The RNG still allowing a +3 ring and there being so many types of rings in the pool means that there's still a high chance of not getting what you wanted, but the odds are still greatly improved by removing a huge amount of the trash. Chances of artifact drops from bonus chests must be much increased as well. You cannot make this change and ignore the fact that you've designed the loot to be 99% GARBAGE based on working around players being able to reject said garbage.
-Reduced cost of Legendary Dragon Keys is still too much without substantial adjustments in other areas. Needs to be balanced against probable value of loot, but also against how players are spending their time. If you can use 10 keys in a night of gaming, someone who pays *real money* has just spent five dollars. You want us to play every day? That's not sustainable. Check your expectations.
- VIP dungeon keys should work in more types of content. At the absolute bare minimum, they should function in levelling dungeons. It's been dumb since the advent of VIP that they don't. Increased access to Adventurer seals and blue gear isn't going to break anything, and the AD cost of a key that works in levelling dungeons is shameful. Incidentally, the free Daily Dungeon key should now be available when Cloak Tower unlocks, not when Cragmire does. Other changes to keys might negate the need for more than this, but if you only changed ONE THING, then converting the existing per diem keys to a skeleton key would be something.
-VIP per diem rewards should include a Legendary Dragon Key or Keys at some tier(s). I am thinking it would be not overdone if it was only a per-account reward like the lockbox key, but perhaps incremented in quantity as tiered rewards. Going all the way up to 5/day/account at rank 12 would be great, though perhaps asking too much. I'd say no less than 3 though. VIP has undeniably lost value for players due to various changes to the t-bar store and AD gain, though it's still a great convenience. Adding value back to VIP would soften the blow of the key change, AND of the changes that have depreciated VIP itself.
- Respect our inventory. The number of different kinds of craftable keys is ludicrous. Anyone looking at the list in the first post can see that. Legendary Dragon Keys were a space-saving feature in addition to their other functions. System overhauls could include changing all campaign tasks to craft a universal "campaign chest key" that can open any bonus chest, and/or providing storage for keys. A generic campaign chest key would add flexibility for players who could take the key they made from several campaigns but only use it in Castle Never, for example. Players are still limited by their access to campaign currencies.
-Respect our time. Reduce timers on key-crafting to seconds. Players are sufficiently gated by currency gain (which our Strongholds and non-key campaign tasks still hunger for as well). If someone wants to craft a bunch of keys in succession so they can spam content on a day they have more time, just let them. It's not going to break anything.
I know that a few of my suggestions tied to VIP are encouraging cash shop engagement in a different way, but heck, it's not like I don't think anything in the game should be monetized. But I want to see spending encouraged by positive reinforcement, not negative.
Hamster it you guys. I spent a long time on the above and you're burying it in hamsters.
Who said what and when is really not important. Finding solutions is. Can it with the finger pointing.
The best course of action imo is to vote with your wallet / feet. Anyone who is unhappy should follow through on quit threats, no more dollar threats...
Now, on to the those claiming that the "this is a bug" is a lie. It is not. The Moderators were told early on just after Module 3 that being able to open a chest and not take the contents but keep your key was indeed a bug. That the decline button was there for those who did not want the loot, not for those who did not want to consume their key. However, as this wasn't something of a real issue and there was a clique of people claiming it was an exploit to look and not take, it was deemed best to remain silent on the issue, lest we fuel a group of player's crusade to name and shame folks for "exploiting." In short, years ago, it was indeed deemed a bug but was not pursued as an exploit.
So, can we now please move on from this whole claim that they are lieing about it being a bug? Such does nothing to add to productive feedback. Thanks!
Whether this is a bug or not, whether the moderators knew or not, whether you lied or not, the players DO NOT want this change. We're giving feedback, and its BLATANTLY obvious we do not want this change. So what you're saying is, no matter what we say, no matter the feedback, you're STILL gonna go through with "fixing" this? What's the point of players providing feedback? Why even announce it? Just shove the fix down our throats and tell us to deal with it. Its now more obvious than ever you'll do anything to milk us for every dime we have, even if it means losing the few players you have left. What a joke.
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micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
Guys you are playing exactly into what he wants.. just stop posting about him, with him, or anything, he is just trying to get this thread closed.
If I could get his posts removed I would, but I cant.
JUST ignore him.
This is simply not the issue, who gives three effs about a mod who barely plays anything in the end game.. just stop it.
This. The issue is keys ! And Loot ! (They proved repeatedly that they lack any sense of communication and trust, non communicating for 2 years about a 'bug' or now lying about it only proves it. )
I have played DDO and in that game, it not only allows the player to see the loot in the chest, but you have the option to reroll the loot. This move you have purposed, "in my opinion" is a step backwards not a step forward. You would have been further ahead, both financially and community friendly, to have placed a paid option for loot reroll instead of taking away from the player. This paid option allows the player to reroll the loot offered instead of running the dungeon over again. That is pretty simple in my opinion, makes the company some cash and keeps the players happy. Peekers have to rerun the dungeon and whales can spin the wheel of fortune!
I really do feel for you guys, as I expressed my true point of view back on page 14 I hope things will improve.
Really good idea!
Thanks, but not my idea originally. As you can see in this image, the chest has a loot or paid re-roll option. The astral shards are used for this feature in DDO. I am not saying this is a better game just this element has merit.
With so many D&D games and games like D&D available to players for little or no cost, it makes one wonder why Cryptic would remove something they have ignored for so long?
Fame is a vapor, popularity an accident; the only earthly certainty is oblivion. ~ Mark Twain
These are a few serious suggestions for how to show good faith effort to improve looting when keys will be auto-consumed and to repair community relations.
- Re-evaluating drop rates in existing content, not just a nebulous "oooh, maybe we can design better rewards in the future". If you have kept the drop rates so defeatingly low because players could keep using the same key until they got something decent, this needs to stop immediately. If you must consume your key every time you open a chest, that chest had darned well better have a solid chance of dropping something decent. IMO, a start would be a minimum of an epic ring in each Underdark bonus chest, for example. +1/2 rings still possible from the auto-reward, and *not* with an increased drop chance. The RNG still allowing a +3 ring and there being so many types of rings in the pool means that there's still a high chance of not getting what you wanted, but the odds are still greatly improved by removing a huge amount of the trash. Chances of artifact drops from bonus chests must be much increased as well. You cannot make this change and ignore the fact that you've designed the loot to be 99% GARBAGE based on working around players being able to reject said garbage.
-Reduced cost of Legendary Dragon Keys is still too much without substantial adjustments in other areas. Needs to be balanced against probable value of loot, but also against how players are spending their time. If you can use 10 keys in a night of gaming, someone who pays *real money* has just spent five dollars. You want us to play every day? That's not sustainable. Check your expectations.
- VIP dungeon keys should work in more types of content. At the absolute bare minimum, they should function in levelling dungeons. It's been dumb since the advent of VIP that they don't. Increased access to Adventurer seals and blue gear isn't going to break anything, and the AD cost of a key that works in levelling dungeons is shameful. Incidentally, the free Daily Dungeon key should now be available when Cloak Tower unlocks, not when Cragmire does. Other changes to keys might negate the need for more than this, but if you only changed ONE THING, then converting the existing per diem keys to a skeleton key would be something.
-VIP per diem rewards should include a Legendary Dragon Key or Keys at some tier(s). I am thinking it would be not overdone if it was only a per-account reward like the lockbox key, but perhaps incremented in quantity as tiered rewards. Going all the way up to 5/day/account at rank 12 would be great, though perhaps asking too much. I'd say no less than 3 though. VIP has undeniably lost value for players due to various changes to the t-bar store and AD gain, though it's still a great convenience. Adding value back to VIP would soften the blow of the key change, AND of the changes that have depreciated VIP itself.
- Respect our inventory. The number of different kinds of craftable keys is ludicrous. Anyone looking at the list in the first post can see that. Legendary Dragon Keys were a space-saving feature in addition to their other functions. System overhauls could include changing all campaign tasks to craft a universal "campaign chest key" that can open any bonus chest, and/or providing storage for keys. A generic campaign chest key would add flexibility for players who could take the key they made from several campaigns but only use it in Castle Never, for example. Players are still limited by their access to campaign currencies.
-Respect our time. Reduce timers on key-crafting to seconds. Players are sufficiently gated by currency gain (which our Strongholds and non-key campaign tasks still hunger for as well). If someone wants to craft a bunch of keys in succession so they can spam content on a day they have more time, just let them. It's not going to break anything.
I know that a few of my suggestions tied to VIP are encouraging cash shop engagement in a different way, but heck, it's not like I don't think anything in the game should be monetized. But I want to see spending encouraged by positive reinforcement, not negative.
Hamster it you guys. I spent a long time on the above and you're burying it in hamsters.
Who said what and when is really not important. Finding solutions is. Can it with the finger pointing.
Becky, nobody asked us about our opinion. Why the hell should we give one? Why should I give any kind of input to a company that said to us this feature is in fact a "bug" after 7 modules have passed? Next thing that is going to happen is calling the "Unstoppable" bug a feature (well, thinking how long it's there it is actualy a feature now). Besides, I'm not one of those rare few people with direct communication with the devs so my opinion doesn't matter anyway.
Your post I've read and you make good points, but to what avail. I've seen a lot of good sugestions during my game time and the number of those suggestions implemented was, well, the same number as some people have seen (legitimately) a +5 ring in a chest.
And if they were smart about it they would first create a solution for the problem then make an anouncment like this. Not just give us 50ZEN discount and think all is ok.
Also, even if the decline button was initially added to the game so a player could decline loot the player didn't want, it's entirely possible, plausible, and reasonable that after adding keys to the game, the devs decided at any point in time since then to keep the decline button in the game for the exact purpose of allowing players to decline and thus not loose a key. If that's the case, then it was an intended feature at that point going forward and not a bug, even if it somehow started as a bug.
So even if it started off as a bug, it makes perfect sense that later on it was adopted by the devs since it makes total sense to adopt it.
In fact, this is most likely what happened in my opinion unless it can be proved otherwise.
End of the day, we will be required to run a raid to get massive flawed RNG to get new weapons, that you know what.. will not at all be reasonable to obtain. Each mod is brining a new seperate layer of grinding/gating/gambling that is just flawed.
The game is spinning down hill very fast, not do some stupid news announcement, but by the sheer fact that these things are mostly unplayable and untenable and are just now creeping into this game. Even black ice empowerment, wasnt anywhere near this level.
We all hated the rng on the bracers, but between the choice of 100 major hes or diong this raid 1000 times over.. for purchased zen keys.. you get my drift.
The issue isnt the keys, its that they are needed to advance in the game in the first place. That is the real issue.
I have played DDO and in that game, it not only allows the player to see the loot in the chest, but you have the option to reroll the loot. This move you have purposed, "in my opinion" is a step backwards not a step forward. You would have been further ahead, both financially and community friendly, to have placed a paid option for loot reroll instead of taking away from the player. This paid option allows the player to reroll the loot offered instead of running the dungeon over again. That is pretty simple in my opinion, makes the company some cash and keeps the players happy. Peekers have to rerun the dungeon and whales can spin the wheel of fortune!
I really do feel for you guys, as I expressed my true point of view back on page 14 I hope things will improve.
Really good idea!
Thanks, but not my idea originally. As you can see in this image, the chest has a loot or paid re-roll option. The astral shards are used for this feature in DDO. I am not saying this is a better game just this element has merit.
With so many D&D games and games like D&D available to players for little or no cost, it makes one wonder why Cryptic would remove something they have ignored for so long?
We don't need that kind of system. What we need is to keep the current way keys work, plain and simple. We definitely don't need this key change, we don't need more empty promises from cryptic to review loot as we all know it's going to remain pathetic no matter how much they increase drop rates. That or bringing back the dungeon delves event with free chests on an hourly event, and adding a similar one for trials!
Im sad about the time Ive invested to quit.over this
im very sad
0
krasensilverMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 27Arc User
after 30 pages and after 3-4 mods you want feedbacks? really? since when you started listening your players? I'm %100 sure this key change coming online no matter what we say. you guys think you will sell tons of keys but thats not gonna happen maybe only 1-2 days after new raid. with this stupid rng you just gonna lose players and every player you lose will trigger another lose coz we play here as friends as a community. Without playing with friends and endless grind no one will spend all hard earned ads or dolars to get some keys.
Now, on to the those claiming that the "this is a bug" is a lie. It is not. The Moderators were told early on just after Module 3 that being able to open a chest and not take the contents but keep your key was indeed a bug. That the decline button was there for those who did not want the loot, not for those who did not want to consume their key. However, as this wasn't something of a real issue and there was a clique of people claiming it was an exploit to look and not take, it was deemed best to remain silent on the issue, lest we fuel a group of player's crusade to name and shame folks for "exploiting." In short, years ago, it was indeed deemed a bug but was not pursued as an exploit.
So, can we now please move on from this whole claim that they are lieing about it being a bug? Such does nothing to add to productive feedback. Thanks!
Now I'm really confused >.< Anyway, let's see what happens when I wake up. Good night everyone!
I feel like I should be surprised, but I am really not surprised. It goes on with what I was trying to say earlier from my other post.
Wow. Just wow. Thank God some people here know how to use the archive.
Yeah, I was actually contemplating screenshotting a few of those, since I know I've read them, and I assume the "Great Purge of 2016" will start removing the unpleasant trail of posts like that one...
You can promise me new content or better QoL or the forward going chests, but as of now i have 0% trust or hope for this company to give us that, without making it a senseless cashgrab and grind.
After this i cannot support or suggest this game to anyone, friend or other gamers.
You had you chances with me.
Too many times you made the same mistakes to hinder the gameplay of casuals and squeezing the last drops out of the whales.
Giving nothing in return that had 0 monetization, powercreep or other idiocrasy implemented in it.
You were taking away from us, lying to us, you made us believe your promises, yet you pulled the rug under us time and again.
I hope i could stand with you Cryptic and be able to support you and say to others "this is a cool, fun and well developing game and company", but i cant anymore or in the future.
There are other games which have the people with guts to answer for their mistakes and hear out their playerbase and actively advise players to take part in the game forums for new ideas and feedback and keep up sustained feedback exchange.
Did you do this Cryptic, no you did not. Meager launcher reports dont do HAMSTER. 1-2 annoucements in 2-3 months of some upcoming stuff, no sustained constructive exchange with your playerbase, none what so ever.
Instead you kept dropping bombshells without warning and explanations, forced those changes and gave nothing back, nothing. Except endless grind and more monetization.
I am apalled, truly and utterly apalled.
Lastly, for all the players that want a change in an issue, in a game they are playing and supporting.
Players, if you are upset voice yourselves and demand things to be sorted out. If ENOUGH of you say "this is HAMSTER!" or "This is good" you can make those changes happen or drive them in the right direction.
If the gaming company pays no heed to your criticism, negative or positive, leave, just leave the game and try to avoid the company. Check it again later if you want, but do not give them a cent or even a minute of your play time.
Its better in the long run to leave a game, than suffer from frustration and the feeling, that as a customer and a player you are nothing but a big fat dollar sign and nothing more.
Conserning this issue, go to the YT, write in the forums, go ingame chat and flood it with the issue at hand, post those links, and raise those pitchforks! If that does not help, give them the finger.
Comments
To show why I remain of my previous view despite your elaboration let me unpack what you are saying (in the quote above and further on) a little:
1. You are saying that not losing a key if you decline was an unintended feature, i.e. a bug and this was well known back in mod 3 (over 2 years ago).
This means the design expectation was that the loot on offer is acceptable for the keys. This is clearly not the case (the loot even used to be worse) and this is even confirmed in the offending post (as why else improve the rewards). Whatever the original origin of the feature it became accepted and completely integrated into the game - both in terms of loot design and even in terms of maintenance. Let's not forget when this "bug" was not working it got fixed again. In short - calling it a bug is in any conventional sense of the word is not true.
2. You are saying it was not fixed at the time because it "wasn't something of a real issue". You are giving us no reason why this issue has now become real (and frankly I doubt this would have been hard to fix as soon as someone noticed it given you already have a "you peek you lose" feature in Dread ring). I don't believe anyone's behaviour in dungeons has been different at all and you even have a box in FBI that attempts to circumvent this feature by having built in additional RNG. In truth - this has never been an issue because it was an accepted part of the game by the majority (unlike what the post says) including game designers and mods.
3. You are also that as it did not have a big impact you stayed silent to avoid people were calling each other exploiters etc.
So instead Cryptic as a company have now done the same thing. I wouldn't have minded people coming out and saying "it was never in our original plans to have it work this way, but we want to fix the rewards and need to make this change to do that". But Cryptic have made the untrue statement that this was known to or used by a minority and that it needs to be removed to be fair to others. That IS calling us exploiters whether you like to see it that way or not. And yes - all of the above amounts to me being one extraordinarily unhappy costumer who feels his investment (financial and time) looks like it has been an incredibly poor one all of a sudden.
In short - please don't defend the indefensible. I strongly suggest an apology be forthcoming from whoever scripted this stupid statement. Then there may be room to "move on" and be "productive".
And as to productive statements - people come to this game because it is DUNGEONS and Dragons. There needs to be real attention to making dungeons worthwhile and enjoyable. But anyway - let's look at that again when there's been some truth about the above.
- make a statement in response to all this discussion. The silence isn't making anything better, and the silence may be making things worse.
- if you lied, then apologize without any spin or BS. Just say "We tried to lie; we're sorry; we'll do better." Seriously it would suck for them in the short term but at least they stand a chance then at regaining some of my trust. I doubt it, but hey, that's how I feel.
- don't ignore or try to suppress an issue like whether or not some members of the community believe you lied about something. Trying to steer the thread away from something like that makes it look more like a coverup and misdirection. "Hey, don't argue about that issue, argue about this other one instead!" The truth is, we can discuss both. Maybe it needs to be two separate threads, but we can discuss both just fine.
However, I do not understand and cannot accept that keys are consumable items. You don't open your apartment or car door once and your key just breaks or magically disappears.
Also, if you look at the icons of the keys they clearly seem to be out of metal and not of wax or plastic. Even if they upgrade the poor loot within the dungeon chests, it still remains illogical that a key is a consumable item.
I suggest they either make keys permanent items (as in real life) but hard to acquire, being forced to pay a little fortune to obtain them and so it will take a few dozen of dungeon runs until they begin to pay off.
Or make those keys like stones of health and add charges to them, that way the key represents kind of a "permanent" item but of course, just like all items, will slowly decay with each use until the point where it cannot be used any longer.
Because it was what it was, it doesn't matter now, after two years, that it wasn't originally intended. It's become the REALITY of the game. To now, two years later, to claim it's just some exploited bug is absolutely disingenuous. It's not like this is some glitch that, when someone uses it, really could have any notion that what they're doing is even wrong. It's not. Look at the image I posted. It says "Decline" - what the heck OTHER than Decline was it supposed to mean? So you can't say other exploits or glitches are in the same category here - they're not. No reasonable player would have any reason to consider this a bug or exploit and only "secret" communications can make that otherwise.
Frankly, I don't believe what they told you is the truth even back then. I don't believe it's the truth now.
Be all that as it may.... at the very least (THE VERY LEAST), they should leave this mechanic in the game until they're ready to provide whatever big improvement to the loot system they're planning to provide. Then, an ONLY then should they
fix this bugrevise this FEATURE.Sekhmet@kvetchus_
Guilds: Greycloaks, Blackcloaks, Whitecloaks, Goldcloaks, Browncloaks, Spiritcloaks, Bluecloaks, Silvercloaks, Black Dawn
Tredecim: The Cloak Alliance
I will be quitting this game if this change goes into effect, UNLESS the loot in those chests is DRASTICALLY improved or the time to make keys is significantly reduced. Maybe every 2 hours instead of 20 hours. Are you kidding me? One key a day?
Not long ago just few years back, peddler in town selling keys, claiming it can get vast wealth and legendary rewards, and nearby, a great warrior/part treasure hunter heard this.
"is this true for legendary treasures?" warrior asked.
"Why of course it is!"
"okay then, how much?", warrior knowing he only had 30 gold coins and work hard clearing some old caves not far from where he was.
Peddlar replied, "just 10 gold each" and sold 1 key.
hours later, warrior fought hard in bandit camp hideout, after hearing bandits rob some caravans and local merchants, thinking it may have about 50g to 200g or more which was claimed by victims reports, finally he reach boss ringleader and slew him, he used a key and opened, and he was shocked with dissappointed, just few silvers and some junks, he search around for anything hidden, he found none.
next day, he went to see peddler for another key.
"Oh, tough luck?" peddler asked
"yeah, maybe it was wrong bandit camp, need another key" warrior paid another 10 golds and then left for next target location.
next place he went to the crypt, heard about long dead old warlord had gathered wealth on his raids, wore shiny armor and a sword that hold some enchantment gem.
warrior fought some undeads with ease and finally reach a resting place of warlord, it said, "Who disturb my tomb?" as it rose up for warrior to see, only to see all rusty and gem no longer enchanted, decayed by ages.
Warrior defeat the undead warlord and inspected a small box in warlord's coffin, and opened and saw shiny copper necklace that almost worth 5 silvers, he began to get upset and went home.
on 3rd day, he bought a key, his last 10 gold coins, and peddler said "better luck next time!"
at the campsite, he studied the map carefully, and discovered a lost ruin of old wizard tower in forest, then went to investigate. nearly an hour of searching in the old tower, he found well preserved strongbox and unlocked, and saw an old wizard book, he couldnt read it, decided to bring to sage master.
Sage admitted his apologies to warrior, "it was just a dairy, nothing value".
in warrior thoughts, " I have been ROBBED!, that peddler is a thief! two-faced conniving liar!" and heading to confront peddler on his way, in his murderous rage.
Peddler who sold the keys was nowhere to be found in town, townfolks said he fled.
story ended.
how dare they sell keys to us and we keep getting junks and they take away our rights to save the keys when the chests are pure junks!
keys cost so much ADs and time to make them by crafts.
sound like they say "Too Bad! Better Luck Next Time!"
I'm not here asking for a dev to respond and I am certainly not trying to give some false hope that if you do things my way a dev will respond.
My only goal here is to help deflect the attacks on ourselves and our moderators and have it directed where it belongs.
- Re-evaluating drop rates in existing content, not just a nebulous "oooh, maybe we can design better rewards in the future". If you have kept the drop rates so defeatingly low because players could keep using the same key until they got something decent, this needs to stop immediately. If you must consume your key every time you open a chest, that chest had darned well better have a solid chance of dropping something decent. IMO, a start would be a minimum of an epic ring in each Underdark bonus chest, for example. +1/2 rings still possible from the auto-reward, and *not* with an increased drop chance. The RNG still allowing a +3 ring and there being so many types of rings in the pool means that there's still a high chance of not getting what you wanted, but the odds are still greatly improved by removing a huge amount of the trash. Chances of artifact drops from bonus chests must be much increased as well. You cannot make this change and ignore the fact that you've designed the loot to be 99% GARBAGE based on working around players being able to reject said garbage.
-Reduced cost of Legendary Dragon Keys is still too much without substantial adjustments in other areas. Needs to be balanced against probable value of loot, but also against how players are spending their time. If you can use 10 keys in a night of gaming, someone who pays *real money* has just spent five dollars. You want us to play every day? That's not sustainable. Check your expectations.
- VIP dungeon keys should work in more types of content. At the absolute bare minimum, they should function in levelling dungeons. It's been dumb since the advent of VIP that they don't. Increased access to Adventurer seals and blue gear isn't going to break anything, and the AD cost of a key that works in levelling dungeons is shameful. Incidentally, the free Daily Dungeon key should now be available when Cloak Tower unlocks, not when Cragmire does. Other changes to keys might negate the need for more than this, but if you only changed ONE THING, then converting the existing per diem keys to a skeleton key would be something.
-VIP per diem rewards should include a Legendary Dragon Key or Keys at some tier(s). I am thinking it would be not overdone if it was only a per-account reward like the lockbox key, but perhaps incremented in quantity as tiered rewards. Going all the way up to 5/day/account at rank 12 would be great, though perhaps asking too much. I'd say no less than 3 though. VIP has undeniably lost value for players due to various changes to the t-bar store and AD gain, though it's still a great convenience. Adding value back to VIP would soften the blow of the key change, AND of the changes that have depreciated VIP itself.
- Respect our inventory. The number of different kinds of craftable keys is ludicrous. Anyone looking at the list in the first post can see that. Legendary Dragon Keys were a space-saving feature in addition to their other functions. System overhauls could include changing all campaign tasks to craft a universal "campaign chest key" that can open any bonus chest, and/or providing storage for keys. A generic campaign chest key would add flexibility for players who could take the key they made from several campaigns but only use it in Castle Never, for example. Players are still limited by their access to campaign currencies.
-Respect our time. Reduce timers on key-crafting to seconds. Players are sufficiently gated by currency gain (which our Strongholds and non-key campaign tasks still hunger for as well). If someone wants to craft a bunch of keys in succession so they can spam content on a day they have more time, just let them. It's not going to break anything.
I know that a few of my suggestions tied to VIP are encouraging cash shop engagement in a different way, but heck, it's not like I don't think anything in the game should be monetized. But I want to see spending encouraged by positive reinforcement, not negative.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
Why does anyone want one.
I dont give three effing figs about a apology, I dont care if they lied or they didnt lie.
I want a over-all , systematic review of QOL, loot, and grinding that has brought these issues to a boiling point. THEY have taken, taken , taken and giving HAMSTER over HAMSTER over HAMSTER for the last few months, if the game continues in this direction, it will be ALL RNG .. with no real progress.
This is long overdue, who CARES about a Im sorry, throw your big boy britches on and ACTUALLY ask for some change to their stupid systems.
You also should ignore that MOD, his comments and whatever else he says, he is just pro company, that is his bent.. he also doesn't engage in end game stuff much, so his opinion on this stuff is pretty invalid, stop engaging him in useless arguments, who cares if he is right or wrong.. its the same as the lying aspect.. IT DOESNT matter. IT simply doesnt matter, stop allowing him to take over the thread, by ignoring him.
I will accept one mods opinion, only because I know he runs some of this stuff and that is ironzergs.. even though, we again dont always agree on stuff.
THIS is our one oppurtunity to get some stuff straightened out.. an apology does nothing.. a apology just leaves status quo , with inventory, gating, rng and other factors THAT shouldve been fixed over the last 6 months.
They are too busy monetizing everything .. and not enough making their customers a bit happier.
Your only goal seems to be to get every1 in the jumpingmorks direction.
If I could get his posts removed I would, but I cant.
JUST ignore him.
This is simply not the issue, who gives three effs about a mod who barely plays anything in the end game.. just stop it.
I have no idea why you ANY of you are engaging with him.
ITS simply not the issue, who cares.
I think we can all agree that this inequity does not exist. So.. why are we moving forward with this?
Who said what and when is really not important. Finding solutions is. Can it with the finger pointing.
Neverwinter Census 2017
All posts pending disapproval by Cecilia
The best course of action imo is to vote with your wallet / feet. Anyone who is unhappy should follow through on quit threats, no more dollar threats...
Whether this is a bug or not, whether the moderators knew or not, whether you lied or not, the players DO NOT want this change. We're giving feedback, and its BLATANTLY obvious we do not want this change. So what you're saying is, no matter what we say, no matter the feedback, you're STILL gonna go through with "fixing" this? What's the point of players providing feedback? Why even announce it? Just shove the fix down our throats and tell us to deal with it. Its now more obvious than ever you'll do anything to milk us for every dime we have, even if it means losing the few players you have left. What a joke.
So lets get back to keys, and loot.
The astral shards are used for this feature in DDO. I am not saying this is a better game just this element has merit.
With so many D&D games and games like D&D available to players for little or no cost, it makes one wonder why Cryptic would remove something they have ignored for so long?
Besides, I'm not one of those rare few people with direct communication with the devs so my opinion doesn't matter anyway.
Your post I've read and you make good points, but to what avail. I've seen a lot of good sugestions during my game time and the number of those suggestions implemented was, well, the same number as some people have seen (legitimately) a +5 ring in a chest.
And if they were smart about it they would first create a solution for the problem then make an anouncment like this. Not just give us 50ZEN discount and think all is ok.
After this i cannot support or suggest this game to anyone, friend or other gamers.
You had you chances with me.
Too many times you made the same mistakes to hinder the gameplay of casuals and squeezing the last drops out of the whales.
Giving nothing in return that had 0 monetization, powercreep or other idiocrasy implemented in it.
You were taking away from us, lying to us, you made us believe your promises, yet you pulled the rug under us time and again.
I hope i could stand with you Cryptic and be able to support you and say to others "this is a cool, fun and well developing game and company", but i cant anymore or in the future.
There are other games which have the people with guts to answer for their mistakes and hear out their playerbase and actively advise players to take part in the game forums for new ideas and feedback and keep up sustained feedback exchange.
Did you do this Cryptic, no you did not. Meager launcher reports dont do HAMSTER. 1-2 annoucements in 2-3 months of some upcoming stuff, no sustained constructive exchange with your playerbase, none what so ever.
Instead you kept dropping bombshells without warning and explanations, forced those changes and gave nothing back, nothing. Except endless grind and more monetization.
I am apalled, truly and utterly apalled.
Lastly, for all the players that want a change in an issue, in a game they are playing and supporting.
Players, if you are upset voice yourselves and demand things to be sorted out. If ENOUGH of you say "this is HAMSTER!" or "This is good" you can make those changes happen or drive them in the right direction.
If the gaming company pays no heed to your criticism, negative or positive, leave, just leave the game and try to avoid the company. Check it again later if you want, but do not give them a cent or even a minute of your play time.
Its better in the long run to leave a game, than suffer from frustration and the feeling, that as a customer and a player you are nothing but a big fat dollar sign and nothing more.
Conserning this issue, go to the YT, write in the forums, go ingame chat and flood it with the issue at hand, post those links, and raise those pitchforks! If that does not help, give them the finger.