The reason it's a "danged if you do, danged if you don't" situation right now for you is that even if it wasn't a lie (and it really looks like a lie to me), but even if it wasn't, there are a ton of other reasons why this change is bad for everyone unless they drastically improve the loot and drop tables. So they're either lying or are incompetent devs even beyond what I thought was possible for a team that has maintained an mmo for this long.
@groglast Zebular never said not to be unhappy about the change. Not once.
He said that it wasn't a lie that it was a bug...as a few, granted vast the minority of players, have also stated.
Be as upset as you want. The change sucks. But accusing them of lying is only feedback about the horrible wording of the post. It was a bug...they didn't need to write it in a way that is accusatory...
But whether you believe it a bug or not is not the reason this change should be disliked. that's the horrible wording of the announcement. The reason you should be upset is because of the loot and the cost of the keys and the incentives to do stuff in game...etc... Not over a stupid word. The only reason I didn't say that as of yet was to avoid this debate...
Really...look at the actual arguments... Many are basically saying there was no way it wasn't intended due to how bad this that and the other thing is.
micky1p00Member, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 3,594Arc User
edited October 2016
Can be nitpicky, call it a design flaw, a bug or whatever. It's all irrelevant, after 2 years that's there, and known to everyone as button that does what it says, you can't call it a bug no meter what you intended to begin with, it's now how it is.
Now lets look honestly at what happened, after the DD removal and key introduction, this is not the first time this was attempted. First time the change was ninja added to mod6 or 7 and was revertad after a couple of days because it was buggy as hell. Now recently to subvert the keys the Devs added a box inside a box (FBI). -- I will never use a key in a box inside a box that gives me BtC item not for my class. Now looks like the devs saw from the few people who run FBI, that we look at the chest, do not like what inside and leave it unclaimed.. And hence the change we see coming. Next mod we have 3 chests, but we can't have it that people will farm the 'keys' once and then start doing the raid. We must force them either buy the keys or go nuts with grind.... and here we are...
Lets leave the really badly worded announcement for a minute. Today top gear has the following: Rings: +5 from FBI, CN, PoM, ToDG Drop rate so low it's silly, if I'll want to get the rings I'll need how many hundreds of keys for a ring ? Or thousands?
Armor: Not only needs restoration and upkeep, but also getting it is extremely difficult, the box inside the box gives the WRONG CLASS. Worse, next 'mod' will have 3 chests with same HAMSTER with minimal chance of something useful.
Weapons: Nothing smart to say here, because the devs listened to all our feedback about the previous things, we get again RNG gated stuff. With 3 chests !
We've said plenty of times about progress and RNG, RNG is not progress. MMORPGS are all based on this:
And RNG is not this, running hundreds of times the same thing and not progressing a bit is not working.
Now how it's related to the keys and cash grab. lets say I want to grind it all, I can make few keys and start grinding hoping for the RNG gods. If the ring chance is 0.5% now I need 500 runs on average to get it, 1k runs for 2 rings. So with 10 runs per day of something we can average it to 100 days, sad.
Lets say I must use the key each time, now it's 1k * 18 hours per key, this is 750 days. Good luck with that. (And even if I cut it in health because we have the other chest, it's 375 days. So......)
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thefabricantMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 5,248Arc User
edited October 2016
@zebular whether it was the truth or a lie, it does not change the fact that the post that is presented to us is highly offensive and there should be an apology for it. Furthermore, it also does not change the fact this is the only game I know of where the loot is so bad that players would want to decline it anyhow.
@zebular I have two issues with your statement of the decline option and the not-consumed key being a bug.
1.) You said yourself there are people who simply refuse to take the loot, the decline option was designed intentionally for them. So, why would anyone name and shame out those players for not taking the loot and call them exploiters? You said it, the feature was intended. The name and shame explanation does make any sense to me. If I don't want junk loot and my key does not get consumed as it should, then how am I an exploiter? Which kind of players even care if their group mates accept or decline their loot? "Oh, you are not taking your loot? EXPLOITER!!!!! I'M GONNA REPORT YOU FOR NOT TAKING YOUR LOOT."
2.) How come you moderate this thread and remain silent but then at page 30 you suddenly decide to enlighten the community? I guess you couldn't take the general stupidity anymore?
1) As I explained, the Decline button was from the beginning, long before keys even existed. After keys were introduced, there was a crusade in the community by some or label those who didn't take the loot to be exploiters. Neither the Moderators nor our CM at the time thought it would be wise to step in as that would just fuel the exploit claims by them knowing definitively that it was indeed a bug and also that Customer Service is the only one who will ever definitively say if something is an exploit or not and since they never will on the forums, there was nothing we could do to to quell such an unrest except for remove the claims of exploiting from the forums, as we have always done.
2) As I said, I haven't even started reading this thread until two nights ago. I actually just had time to finally finish reading it this morning, shortly before I have to leave for work. I rarely reply to a thread if I haven't read it fully.
No, you're putting words into my mouth. What I find astonishing is how folks outright call them liars when they don't even know the truth and that is why I decided to try and clear that up. Yet now, I am seemingly the target for speaking the truth, which is fine. I just find it astonishing again that at first, folks claim "lie" and then when the truth explained, it is like-wise ridiculed. Shar'd if you do, Shar'd if you don't.
The reason it's a "danged if you do, danged if you don't" situation right now for you is that even if it wasn't a lie (and it really looks like a lie to me), but even if it wasn't, there are a ton of other reasons why this change is bad for everyone unless they drastically improve the loot and drop tables. So they're either lying or are incompetent devs even beyond what I thought was possible for a team that has maintained an mmo for this long.
Let's say it was a bug. How many chests have been peaked into and not taken since this bug was introduced? Hundreds of thousands if not millions, right? And they'd really let it go this whole time, not to mention introducing new dungeons with this bug, and introducing new keys for chests with this bug, introducing the game on new platforms with this bug, letting so many chests be peaked into if they didn't design it like that?
That is so absurd that either this is a lie or they are incompetent beyond belief. Danged if you do, danged if you don't. This is just bad all around, and the company is still silent.
Ask yourself this, if truth and honesty were on their side, would they have been silent for so long in response to the community's reaction about all this? I find that even more difficult to believe.
No it goes further than that. Not only is Zebular telling the truth but according to devs we have all been actively exploiting this bug since it became an issue.
We are exploiters. We have cheated the system to gain an unfair advantage and have done so for several mods. We should probably be banned alongside all those that ran their bot armies to farm rank 5 enchants.
Now, on to the those claiming that the "this is a bug" is a lie. It is not. The Moderators were told early on just after Module 3 that being able to open a chest and not take the contents but keep your key was indeed a bug. That the decline button was there for those who did not want the loot, not for those who did not want to consume their key. However, as this wasn't something of a real issue and there was a clique of people claiming it was an exploit to look and not take, it was deemed best to remain silent on the issue, lest we fuel a group of player's crusade to name and shame folks for "exploiting." In short, years ago, it was indeed deemed a bug but was not pursued as an exploit.
So, can we now please move on from this whole claim that they are lieing about it being a bug? Such does nothing to add to productive feedback. Thanks!
THATS POSTHOC NONSENSE!!!!!!!!!
They told you in secret years ago that it was a bug, but you're just now telling us after the fact? You're going to have to do better than that. You guys have screwed us so many times in the past year. This isn't going to end well if that's the defense you're planning on using.
This was not a statement to defend the change. It was a statement to clear up people calling the poorly conveyed notion that it was a "bug" as a lie. It was a bug, a bug that should have been fixed long long ago but for whatever reason, did not and it is clear that waiting so long was a poor decision. Regardless, it is being fixed now. I suggest we move on to provide feedback on what we expect out of this change, as it is clear by my own feedback early and almost everyone else here that the loot in the chests as they are now just plain sucks. That if we're going to be forced to consume a key on loot, that loot had better be worth the key, at the very least.
You keep repeating your talking points, but it's posthoc rationalization. Something said in secret years ago, you're just now telling us, but we should take your word for it. You insult our intelligence. And we all read your suggestion about moving on from it, people don't seem to care.
Now, you want some positive feedback, lower the cost of keys to 50 zen. Get rid of the ridiculous 20 hours process to make keys, it should be instant. And do this all in the same update that you remove the so called bug, not several months later.
You could also fix some more pressing issues while you're at it, broken pvp, awful chest contents, terrible RNG, or giving us back the dungeons you removed from the game, but none of that costs you guys any micro-transactions so we wont hold our breathes waiting for it to be addressed.
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
No, you're putting words into my mouth. What I find astonishing is how folks outright call them liars when they don't even know the truth and that is why I decided to try and clear that up. Yet now, I am seemingly the target for speaking the truth, which is fine. I just find it astonishing again that at first, folks claim "lie" and then when the truth explained, it is like-wise ridiculed. Shar'd if you do, Shar'd if you don't.
The reason it's a "danged if you do, danged if you don't" situation right now for you is that even if it wasn't a lie (and it really looks like a lie to me), but even if it wasn't, there are a ton of other reasons why this change is bad for everyone unless they drastically improve the loot and drop tables. So they're either lying or are incompetent devs even beyond what I thought was possible for a team that has maintained an mmo for this long.
Let's say it was a bug. How many chests have been peaked into and not taken since this bug was introduced? Hundreds of thousands if not millions, right? And they'd really let it go this whole time, not to mention introducing new dungeons with this bug, and introducing new keys for chests with this bug, introducing the game on new platforms with this bug, letting so many chests be peaked into if they didn't design it like that?
That is so absurd that either this is a lie or they are incompetent beyond belief. Danged if you do, danged if you don't. This is just bad all around, and the company is still silent.
Ask yourself this, if truth and honesty were on their side, would they have been silent for so long in response to the community's reaction about all this? I find that even more difficult to believe.
No it goes further than that. Not only is Zebular telling the truth but according to devs we have all been actively exploiting this bug since it became an issue.
We are exploiters. We have cheated the system to gain an unfair advantage and have done so for several mods. We should probably be banned alongside all those that ran their bot armies to farm rank 5 enchants.
Really poor choice of words as using the word bug does have that connotation. Trust me, we're all unhappy about that. It was not working as intended but they chose not to fix it at the time when we forwarded that you could opt not to consume a key after you looked at the loot options.
@groglast Zebular never said not to be unhappy about the change. Not once.
He said that it wasn't a lie that it was a bug...as a few, granted vast the minority of players, have also stated.
Be as upset as you want. The change sucks. But accusing them of lying is only feedback about the horrible wording of the post. It was a bug...they didn't need to write it in a way that is accusatory...
But whether you believe it a bug or not is not the reason this change should be disliked. that's the horrible wording of the announcement. The reason you should be upset is because of the loot and the cost of the keys and the incentives to do stuff in game...etc... Not over a stupid word. The only reason I didn't say that as of yet was to avoid this debate...
Really...look at the actual arguments... Many are basically saying there was no way it wasn't intended due to how bad this that and the other thing is.
If I understand you correctly, you are arguing that whether they lied or not is not really a big deal. If that's what you're saying (and I could be misunderstanding you), then I disagree very strongly...
I see two primary issues here: - Issue one is I think they lied about something to their customers, intentionally and blatantly. The topic of what they lied about is irrespective to the issue of whether they lied or not. - Issue two is about the key changes, drop tables, and loot tables.
They are two separate, important issues to me. They are distinct issues. Both issues need to be discussed. If they lied as I currently believe they did, then the stuff about the keys is tangential since this company has lost me already. I'm at that point now, but this discussion is worth continuing since others are reading these posts of course.
If they admit and apologize for the lie, without trying to spin it, without trying to BS it, then I believe we can have a productive debate about the second issue. Until then, I just don't see it happening.
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zebularMember, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 15,270Community Moderator
@groglast Zebular never said not to be unhappy about the change. Not once.
He said that it wasn't a lie that it was a bug...as a few, granted vast the minority of players, have also stated.
Be as upset as you want. The change sucks. But accusing them of lying is only feedback about the horrible wording of the post. It was a bug...they didn't need to write it in a way that is accusatory...
But whether you believe it a bug or not is not the reason this change should be disliked. that's the horrible wording of the announcement. The reason you should be upset is because of the loot and the cost of the keys and the incentives to do stuff in game...etc... Not over a stupid word. The only reason I didn't say that as of yet was to avoid this debate...
Really...look at the actual arguments... Many are basically saying there was no way it wasn't intended due to how bad this that and the other thing is.
If I understand you correctly, you are arguing that whether they lied or not is not really a big deal. If that's what you're saying (and I could be misunderstanding you), then I disagree very strongly...
I see two primary issues here: - Issue one is I think they lied about something to their customers, intentionally and blatantly. The topic of what they lied about is irrespective to the issue of whether they lied or not. - Issue two is about the key changes, drop tables, and loot tables.
They are two separate, important issues to me. Both issues need to be discussed. If they lied as I currently believe they did, then the stuff about the keys is tangential since this company has lost me already. I'm at that point now, but this discussion is worth continuing since others are reading these posts of course.
If they admit and apologize for the lie, without trying to spin it, without trying to BS it, then I believe we can have a productive debate about the second issue. Until then, I just don't see it happening.
So, basically what you're saying is that unless they lie and say it was a lie, then they're lying? Why not accept that you cannot accept a truth and move on to actually get to providing substantial feedback on how the change can be made to be acceptable instead of harping on a conspiracy tirade?
Now, on to the those claiming that the "this is a bug" is a lie. It is not. The Moderators were told early on just after Module 3 that being able to open a chest and not take the contents but keep your key was indeed a bug. That the decline button was there for those who did not want the loot, not for those who did not want to consume their key. However, as this wasn't something of a real issue and there was a clique of people claiming it was an exploit to look and not take, it was deemed best to remain silent on the issue, lest we fuel a group of player's crusade to name and shame folks for "exploiting." In short, years ago, it was indeed deemed a bug but was not pursued as an exploit.
So, can we now please move on from this whole claim that they are lieing about it being a bug? Such does nothing to add to productive feedback. Thanks!
THATS POSTHOC NONSENSE!!!!!!!!!
They told you in secret years ago that it was a bug, but you're just now telling us after the fact? You're going to have to do better than that. You guys have screwed us so many times in the past year. This isn't going to end well if that's the defense you're planning on using.
This was not a statement to defend the change. It was a statement to clear up people calling the poorly conveyed notion that it was a "bug" as a lie. It was a bug, a bug that should have been fixed long long ago but for whatever reason, did not and it is clear that waiting so long was a poor decision. Regardless, it is being fixed now. I suggest we move on to provide feedback on what we expect out of this change, as it is clear by my own feedback early and almost everyone else here that the loot in the chests as they are now just plain sucks. That if we're going to be forced to consume a key on loot, that loot had better be worth the key, at the very least.
You keep repeating your talking points, but it's posthoc rationalization. Something said in secret years ago, you're just now telling us, but we should take your word for it. You insult our intelligence. And we all read your suggestion about moving on from it, people don't seem to care.
Now, you want some positive feedback, lower the cost of keys to 50 zen. Get rid of the ridiculous 20 hours process to make keys, it should be instant. And do this all in the same update that you remove the so called bug, not several months later.
You could also fix some more pressing issues while you're at it, broken pvp, awful chest contents, terrible RNG, or giving us back the dungeons you removed from the game, but none of that costs you guys any micro-transactions so we wont hold our breathes waiting for it to be addressed.
It's not posthoc nonsense, believe it or not the forums could be just as toxic back then as they can be nowadays. He's not defending them, just saying how it is. If you want to get mad get mad at the devs taking a lousy paycheck for a workload they can't keep up with, and then save a special spot in the nine hells for the dev who basically called us all cheaters because the suits can't keep their sticks straight.
Ok....... so they're not "lying" but this is still no less decitful and reprehensible behavior than if it was an outright lie because apparently it was covered up. More importantly, the coverup includes the volunteer moderator group as well as actual Cryptic staff. Not only should Cryptic be ashamed of themselves, clearly the moderators, given their duplicity in this sham, should likewise be ashamed. (Newer mods, who were not involved in this, excluded of course)
You act as though this is knowledge we've been brooding over for years or something... It's only come up twice.. once just after Module 3 and then was forgotten about until I finally started reading this thread and then now with this thread. I actually stayed out of this thread until two nights ago as I have been real busy with work. After reading comment after comment about the bug being a "lie" I finally spoke up in our Moderator chat and started recalling the past experience with the topic of looking into a chest but not looting. As so many Cryptic staff have changed, I am sure the same thing happened there for many. That some knew it was a bug but most did not as it just rarely came up as a topic, literally only once before.
This doesn't change the fact that in order for this fix to be acceptable now in our current and future Neverwinter, that drastic change has to happen to the loot inside our chests. They need, as I have said a few time now, to be made at the very least worth the key used... especially if we will now be forced to consume a key no matter what.
Lies, the chest "bug" came out when you could not peek to them not while ago, and it was posted to the general discussion forum and bug forum, and devs fixed the system to be peekable again, so try a little better next time will you.
This "nopeek" was stated as a bug then, but apparently you disagree or are you telling me that the playerbase turned the devs head??
U really expect me to believe that no new dev is introduced to the MAJOR "bugs" this platform has, if this is true they really are incompetent bunch of poppycoks.
We are at a point where shitload of the veteran playerbase and paying customers are gonna leave.
@ambisinisterr and @zebular, I have much respect for you guys and think you do a great job, I think all of our moderators actually to a great job, and thank you for your work.
Here's my problem with how this change was communicated to me. I open and see what @xeltey open with.....
"There is currently a bug on the live server whereby a player may view the rewards without using a key. This bug has been fixed. When this fix gets to the live server, opening a chest will consume the key, give the player the rewards, and display those rewards to the player. To ensure that keys are not accidentally used, the user interface in game will alert you to which key would be consumed and ask for confirmation before continuing.
Since this bug has been live for a long time and we believe that some players may have come to rely on this bug, we are providing advance notice of the change."
and
"We are pleased to address this bug because it resolves an inequity between the minority of players who knew about it and the majority who did not"
So basically the game makers are telling me that I was player who utilized a bug that caused an inequity between my fellow players, by simply declining from getting near worthless treasure at the expense of a key.... <----- This does not make me happy. I thought the "Decline" button was a feature added to the game when Daily Dungeons were removed as to help us in deciding whether it was worth the expending the key... but now i'm being told it was a bug..... This is where i'm really upset, I do not intentionally use bugs and if I find something I hope on the bug part of this forum and see if its there, and everything I have ever found has already been reported....
The gamer makers have massed people that used the decline button in the game, which I thought was feature added to the game, as causing an inequity between players..... This just is not right... bug or not, the communication was all wrong...
again keep up the good fight CM's
to the gamers lets not lose sight of the issue this post has opened up, I think most of us are fed up with the crappy RnG of this game and now with this change coming into effect, its going to cost up lots of time and money for crappy RnG..... this is what we need to focus on!
@groglast Zebular never said not to be unhappy about the change. Not once.
He said that it wasn't a lie that it was a bug...as a few, granted vast the minority of players, have also stated.
Be as upset as you want. The change sucks. But accusing them of lying is only feedback about the horrible wording of the post. It was a bug...they didn't need to write it in a way that is accusatory...
But whether you believe it a bug or not is not the reason this change should be disliked. that's the horrible wording of the announcement. The reason you should be upset is because of the loot and the cost of the keys and the incentives to do stuff in game...etc... Not over a stupid word. The only reason I didn't say that as of yet was to avoid this debate...
Really...look at the actual arguments... Many are basically saying there was no way it wasn't intended due to how bad this that and the other thing is.
If I understand you correctly, you are arguing that whether they lied or not is not really a big deal. If that's what you're saying (and I could be misunderstanding you), then I disagree very strongly...
I see two primary issues here: - Issue one is I think they lied about something to their customers, intentionally and blatantly. The topic of what they lied about is irrespective to the issue of whether they lied or not. - Issue two is about the key changes, drop tables, and loot tables.
They are two separate, important issues to me. Both issues need to be discussed. If they lied as I currently believe they did, then the stuff about the keys is tangential since this company has lost me already. I'm at that point now, but this discussion is worth continuing since others are reading these posts of course.
If they admit and apologize for the lie, without trying to spin it, without trying to BS it, then I believe we can have a productive debate about the second issue. Until then, I just don't see it happening.
Why not accept that you cannot accept a truth and move on to actually get to providing substantial feedback on how the change can be made to be acceptable instead of harping on a conspiracy tirade?
Because you haven't really proven anything. We're supposed to take your word for it, that it's been a bug the whole time, you guys just didn't bother to fix it. That's not proof of anything, on it's face it's just post hoc nonsense. If you want us to believe it then prove it! There was a time that you would've got the benefit of the doubt, but after the coal ward tradebar store debacle, people understandably don't believe you.
Now, on to the those claiming that the "this is a bug" is a lie. It is not. The Moderators were told early on just after Module 3 that being able to open a chest and not take the contents but keep your key was indeed a bug. That the decline button was there for those who did not want the loot, not for those who did not want to consume their key. However, as this wasn't something of a real issue and there was a clique of people claiming it was an exploit to look and not take, it was deemed best to remain silent on the issue, lest we fuel a group of player's crusade to name and shame folks for "exploiting." In short, years ago, it was indeed deemed a bug but was not pursued as an exploit.
So, can we now please move on from this whole claim that they are lieing about it being a bug? Such does nothing to add to productive feedback. Thanks!
THATS POSTHOC NONSENSE!!!!!!!!!
They told you in secret years ago that it was a bug, but you're just now telling us after the fact? You're going to have to do better than that. You guys have screwed us so many times in the past year. This isn't going to end well if that's the defense you're planning on using.
This was not a statement to defend the change. It was a statement to clear up people calling the poorly conveyed notion that it was a "bug" as a lie. It was a bug, a bug that should have been fixed long long ago but for whatever reason, did not and it is clear that waiting so long was a poor decision. Regardless, it is being fixed now. I suggest we move on to provide feedback on what we expect out of this change, as it is clear by my own feedback early and almost everyone else here that the loot in the chests as they are now just plain sucks. That if we're going to be forced to consume a key on loot, that loot had better be worth the key, at the very least.
You keep repeating your talking points, but it's posthoc rationalization. Something said in secret years ago, you're just now telling us, but we should take your word for it. You insult our intelligence. And we all read your suggestion about moving on from it, people don't seem to care.
Now, you want some positive feedback, lower the cost of keys to 50 zen. Get rid of the ridiculous 20 hours process to make keys, it should be instant. And do this all in the same update that you remove the so called bug, not several months later.
You could also fix some more pressing issues while you're at it, broken pvp, awful chest contents, terrible RNG, or giving us back the dungeons you removed from the game, but none of that costs you guys any micro-transactions so we wont hold our breathes waiting for it to be addressed.
It's not posthoc nonsense, believe it or not the forums could be just as toxic back then as they can be nowadays. He's not defending them, just saying how it is. If you want to get mad get mad at the devs taking a lousy paycheck for a workload they can't keep up with, and then save a special spot in the nine hells for the dev who basically called us all cheaters because the suits can't keep their sticks straight.
This is post hoc. They're giving an explanation of events after the fact, and providing nothing to prove that events unfolded the way they claim.
As for the devs, it'd be nice if they bothered to show up here. I have a few questions for them.
Either its lying now, lying since mod3 or just incompetence since mod3.
Also your development team as a whole must operate in some cowboy fashion if you cannot even maintain a simple bug log.
Im quite concerned do you even get security audited / checked. Is our data safe on your servers because if bugs are not logged what other basic forms of process and governance are not followed.
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
@groglast Zebular never said not to be unhappy about the change. Not once.
He said that it wasn't a lie that it was a bug...as a few, granted vast the minority of players, have also stated.
Be as upset as you want. The change sucks. But accusing them of lying is only feedback about the horrible wording of the post. It was a bug...they didn't need to write it in a way that is accusatory...
But whether you believe it a bug or not is not the reason this change should be disliked. that's the horrible wording of the announcement. The reason you should be upset is because of the loot and the cost of the keys and the incentives to do stuff in game...etc... Not over a stupid word. The only reason I didn't say that as of yet was to avoid this debate...
Really...look at the actual arguments... Many are basically saying there was no way it wasn't intended due to how bad this that and the other thing is.
If I understand you correctly, you are arguing that whether they lied or not is not really a big deal. If that's what you're saying (and I could be misunderstanding you), then I disagree very strongly...
I see two primary issues here: - Issue one is I think they lied about something to their customers, intentionally and blatantly. The topic of what they lied about is irrespective to the issue of whether they lied or not. - Issue two is about the key changes, drop tables, and loot tables.
They are two separate, important issues to me. Both issues need to be discussed. If they lied as I currently believe they did, then the stuff about the keys is tangential since this company has lost me already. I'm at that point now, but this discussion is worth continuing since others are reading these posts of course.
If they admit and apologize for the lie, without trying to spin it, without trying to BS it, then I believe we can have a productive debate about the second issue. Until then, I just don't see it happening.
Why not accept that you cannot accept a truth and move on to actually get to providing substantial feedback on how the change can be made to be acceptable instead of harping on a conspiracy tirade?
Because you haven't really proven anything. We're supposed to take your word for it, that it's been a bug the whole time, you guys just didn't bother to fix it. That's not proof of anything, on it's face it's just post hoc nonsense. If you want us to believe it then prove it! There was a time that you would've got the benefit of the doubt, but after the coal ward tradebar store debacle, people understandably don't believe you.
Now, on to the those claiming that the "this is a bug" is a lie. It is not. The Moderators were told early on just after Module 3 that being able to open a chest and not take the contents but keep your key was indeed a bug. That the decline button was there for those who did not want the loot, not for those who did not want to consume their key. However, as this wasn't something of a real issue and there was a clique of people claiming it was an exploit to look and not take, it was deemed best to remain silent on the issue, lest we fuel a group of player's crusade to name and shame folks for "exploiting." In short, years ago, it was indeed deemed a bug but was not pursued as an exploit.
So, can we now please move on from this whole claim that they are lieing about it being a bug? Such does nothing to add to productive feedback. Thanks!
THATS POSTHOC NONSENSE!!!!!!!!!
They told you in secret years ago that it was a bug, but you're just now telling us after the fact? You're going to have to do better than that. You guys have screwed us so many times in the past year. This isn't going to end well if that's the defense you're planning on using.
This was not a statement to defend the change. It was a statement to clear up people calling the poorly conveyed notion that it was a "bug" as a lie. It was a bug, a bug that should have been fixed long long ago but for whatever reason, did not and it is clear that waiting so long was a poor decision. Regardless, it is being fixed now. I suggest we move on to provide feedback on what we expect out of this change, as it is clear by my own feedback early and almost everyone else here that the loot in the chests as they are now just plain sucks. That if we're going to be forced to consume a key on loot, that loot had better be worth the key, at the very least.
You keep repeating your talking points, but it's posthoc rationalization. Something said in secret years ago, you're just now telling us, but we should take your word for it. You insult our intelligence. And we all read your suggestion about moving on from it, people don't seem to care.
Now, you want some positive feedback, lower the cost of keys to 50 zen. Get rid of the ridiculous 20 hours process to make keys, it should be instant. And do this all in the same update that you remove the so called bug, not several months later.
You could also fix some more pressing issues while you're at it, broken pvp, awful chest contents, terrible RNG, or giving us back the dungeons you removed from the game, but none of that costs you guys any micro-transactions so we wont hold our breathes waiting for it to be addressed.
It's not posthoc nonsense, believe it or not the forums could be just as toxic back then as they can be nowadays. He's not defending them, just saying how it is. If you want to get mad get mad at the devs taking a lousy paycheck for a workload they can't keep up with, and then save a special spot in the nine hells for the dev who basically called us all cheaters because the suits can't keep their sticks straight.
This is post hoc. They're giving an explanation of events after the fact, and providing nothing to prove that events unfolded the way they claim.
As for the devs, it'd be nice if they bothered to show up here. I have a few questions for them.
Just because you don;t believe it doesn't make it false. Devs aren't giving us any answers or clarification, they seem content to let the moderators take the flak.
No-one here is going to say you don;t have a reason to be upset, because we all are. The lack of proper timely bug fixes, vague tootltips, being called a cheater, no communication from devs and mostly HAMSTER loot, but personally I prefer to spew my vitriol for those deserve it the most.
So, basically what you're saying is that unless they lie and say it was a lie, then they're lying? Why not accept that you cannot accept a truth and move on to actually get to providing substantial feedback on how the change can be made to be acceptable instead of harping on a conspiracy tirade?
It's dishonest to characterize my argument that way. I'm not asking them to "lie and say it was a lie." I believe they lied, and if so then apologize for it. Simply because you say your argument is the truth doesn't make it the truth. In fact, I don't believe your explanation is the truth at all. I think it's a retcon of the past.
Calling what I'm saying a conspiracy makes it look like you lack valid arguments to defend yourself with. You're resorting to dishonest mischaracterizations and straw mans.
If I understand your arguments correctly, you and ambisinisterr are basically marking the argument for everyone to move away from debating "whether they lied and if so what should be done about it" to the key issue. I don't see why we should ignore the former issue. It's just as important as the latter, if not moreso. If they lied, it's a really big deal.
@groglast Zebular never said not to be unhappy about the change. Not once.
He said that it wasn't a lie that it was a bug...as a few, granted vast the minority of players, have also stated.
Be as upset as you want. The change sucks. But accusing them of lying is only feedback about the horrible wording of the post. It was a bug...they didn't need to write it in a way that is accusatory...
But whether you believe it a bug or not is not the reason this change should be disliked. that's the horrible wording of the announcement. The reason you should be upset is because of the loot and the cost of the keys and the incentives to do stuff in game...etc... Not over a stupid word. The only reason I didn't say that as of yet was to avoid this debate...
Really...look at the actual arguments... Many are basically saying there was no way it wasn't intended due to how bad this that and the other thing is.
If I understand you correctly, you are arguing that whether they lied or not is not really a big deal. If that's what you're saying (and I could be misunderstanding you), then I disagree very strongly...
I see two primary issues here: - Issue one is I think they lied about something to their customers, intentionally and blatantly. The topic of what they lied about is irrespective to the issue of whether they lied or not. - Issue two is about the key changes, drop tables, and loot tables.
They are two separate, important issues to me. Both issues need to be discussed. If they lied as I currently believe they did, then the stuff about the keys is tangential since this company has lost me already. I'm at that point now, but this discussion is worth continuing since others are reading these posts of course.
If they admit and apologize for the lie, without trying to spin it, without trying to BS it, then I believe we can have a productive debate about the second issue. Until then, I just don't see it happening.
Why not accept that you cannot accept a truth and move on to actually get to providing substantial feedback on how the change can be made to be acceptable instead of harping on a conspiracy tirade?
Because you haven't really proven anything. We're supposed to take your word for it, that it's been a bug the whole time, you guys just didn't bother to fix it. That's not proof of anything, on it's face it's just post hoc nonsense. If you want us to believe it then prove it! There was a time that you would've got the benefit of the doubt, but after the coal ward tradebar store debacle, people understandably don't believe you.
Now, on to the those claiming that the "this is a bug" is a lie. It is not. The Moderators were told early on just after Module 3 that being able to open a chest and not take the contents but keep your key was indeed a bug. That the decline button was there for those who did not want the loot, not for those who did not want to consume their key. However, as this wasn't something of a real issue and there was a clique of people claiming it was an exploit to look and not take, it was deemed best to remain silent on the issue, lest we fuel a group of player's crusade to name and shame folks for "exploiting." In short, years ago, it was indeed deemed a bug but was not pursued as an exploit.
So, can we now please move on from this whole claim that they are lieing about it being a bug? Such does nothing to add to productive feedback. Thanks!
THATS POSTHOC NONSENSE!!!!!!!!!
They told you in secret years ago that it was a bug, but you're just now telling us after the fact? You're going to have to do better than that. You guys have screwed us so many times in the past year. This isn't going to end well if that's the defense you're planning on using.
This was not a statement to defend the change. It was a statement to clear up people calling the poorly conveyed notion that it was a "bug" as a lie. It was a bug, a bug that should have been fixed long long ago but for whatever reason, did not and it is clear that waiting so long was a poor decision. Regardless, it is being fixed now. I suggest we move on to provide feedback on what we expect out of this change, as it is clear by my own feedback early and almost everyone else here that the loot in the chests as they are now just plain sucks. That if we're going to be forced to consume a key on loot, that loot had better be worth the key, at the very least.
You keep repeating your talking points, but it's posthoc rationalization. Something said in secret years ago, you're just now telling us, but we should take your word for it. You insult our intelligence. And we all read your suggestion about moving on from it, people don't seem to care.
Now, you want some positive feedback, lower the cost of keys to 50 zen. Get rid of the ridiculous 20 hours process to make keys, it should be instant. And do this all in the same update that you remove the so called bug, not several months later.
You could also fix some more pressing issues while you're at it, broken pvp, awful chest contents, terrible RNG, or giving us back the dungeons you removed from the game, but none of that costs you guys any micro-transactions so we wont hold our breathes waiting for it to be addressed.
It's not posthoc nonsense, believe it or not the forums could be just as toxic back then as they can be nowadays. He's not defending them, just saying how it is. If you want to get mad get mad at the devs taking a lousy paycheck for a workload they can't keep up with, and then save a special spot in the nine hells for the dev who basically called us all cheaters because the suits can't keep their sticks straight.
This is post hoc. They're giving an explanation of events after the fact, and providing nothing to prove that events unfolded the way they claim.
As for the devs, it'd be nice if they bothered to show up here. I have a few questions for them.
Just because you don;t believe it doesn't make it false. Devs aren't giving us any answers or clarification, they seem content to let the moderators take the flak.
No-one here is going to say you don;t have a reason to be upset, because we all are. The lack of proper timely bug fixes, vague tootltips, being called a cheater, no communication from devs and mostly HAMSTER loot, but personally I prefer to spew my vitriol for those deserve it the most.
No, the after the fact explanation and the lack of evidence other than, "we discussed this in the past," makes it appear false. They could easily show us a bug log. And there's no vitriol in my posts. I even offered positive feedback. But there's no devs in sight.
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
Either its lying now, lying since mod3 or just incompetence since mod3.
Also your development team as a whole must operate in some cowboy fashion if you cannot even maintain a simple bug log.
Im quite concerned do you even get security audited / checked. Is our data safe on your servers because if bugs are not logged what other basic forms of process and governance are not followed.
"Your Development Team"
Pretty sure Zeb isn't a boss of anything at Cryptic. Just an unpaid volunteer trying to steer this conversation into a direction that if we're lucky a dev might read and maybe even respond to, though right now I think I have more chance of getting a +5 Orcus ring.
If we're gonna be swearing into the wind we might as well be swearing in the same direction.
So you've known that this was a bug and you were still (rarely) not taking the loot from the chest. Did I get that right? Were you maybe discarding your key after that to make it all legit?
At least I have an excuse that I thought this was a feature.
This is honestly the only game that makes me feel really HAMSTER and really really sad whenever I play it, and its because this kind of bs, nobody has enough balls to admit they were wrong, it's an statement done wrong, both by the Devs and by the CM, if you're handed this kind of thing via e-mail or some HAMSTER like that, you simply don't copy paste it without even looking at what you're saying. It's also a "fix" done wrong because while the Devs are fixing their part of the loss, they aren't addressing ours but w/e.
I wanted to make a more useful comment but after reading the 32 pages... what for? I'm done.
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
@groglast Zebular never said not to be unhappy about the change. Not once.
He said that it wasn't a lie that it was a bug...as a few, granted vast the minority of players, have also stated.
Be as upset as you want. The change sucks. But accusing them of lying is only feedback about the horrible wording of the post. It was a bug...they didn't need to write it in a way that is accusatory...
But whether you believe it a bug or not is not the reason this change should be disliked. that's the horrible wording of the announcement. The reason you should be upset is because of the loot and the cost of the keys and the incentives to do stuff in game...etc... Not over a stupid word. The only reason I didn't say that as of yet was to avoid this debate...
Really...look at the actual arguments... Many are basically saying there was no way it wasn't intended due to how bad this that and the other thing is.
If I understand you correctly, you are arguing that whether they lied or not is not really a big deal. If that's what you're saying (and I could be misunderstanding you), then I disagree very strongly...
I see two primary issues here: - Issue one is I think they lied about something to their customers, intentionally and blatantly. The topic of what they lied about is irrespective to the issue of whether they lied or not. - Issue two is about the key changes, drop tables, and loot tables.
They are two separate, important issues to me. Both issues need to be discussed. If they lied as I currently believe they did, then the stuff about the keys is tangential since this company has lost me already. I'm at that point now, but this discussion is worth continuing since others are reading these posts of course.
If they admit and apologize for the lie, without trying to spin it, without trying to BS it, then I believe we can have a productive debate about the second issue. Until then, I just don't see it happening.
Why not accept that you cannot accept a truth and move on to actually get to providing substantial feedback on how the change can be made to be acceptable instead of harping on a conspiracy tirade?
Because you haven't really proven anything. We're supposed to take your word for it, that it's been a bug the whole time, you guys just didn't bother to fix it. That's not proof of anything, on it's face it's just post hoc nonsense. If you want us to believe it then prove it! There was a time that you would've got the benefit of the doubt, but after the coal ward tradebar store debacle, people understandably don't believe you.
Now, on to the those claiming that the "this is a bug" is a lie. It is not. The Moderators were told early on just after Module 3 that being able to open a chest and not take the contents but keep your key was indeed a bug. That the decline button was there for those who did not want the loot, not for those who did not want to consume their key. However, as this wasn't something of a real issue and there was a clique of people claiming it was an exploit to look and not take, it was deemed best to remain silent on the issue, lest we fuel a group of player's crusade to name and shame folks for "exploiting." In short, years ago, it was indeed deemed a bug but was not pursued as an exploit.
So, can we now please move on from this whole claim that they are lieing about it being a bug? Such does nothing to add to productive feedback. Thanks!
THATS POSTHOC NONSENSE!!!!!!!!!
They told you in secret years ago that it was a bug, but you're just now telling us after the fact? You're going to have to do better than that. You guys have screwed us so many times in the past year. This isn't going to end well if that's the defense you're planning on using.
This was not a statement to defend the change. It was a statement to clear up people calling the poorly conveyed notion that it was a "bug" as a lie. It was a bug, a bug that should have been fixed long long ago but for whatever reason, did not and it is clear that waiting so long was a poor decision. Regardless, it is being fixed now. I suggest we move on to provide feedback on what we expect out of this change, as it is clear by my own feedback early and almost everyone else here that the loot in the chests as they are now just plain sucks. That if we're going to be forced to consume a key on loot, that loot had better be worth the key, at the very least.
You keep repeating your talking points, but it's posthoc rationalization. Something said in secret years ago, you're just now telling us, but we should take your word for it. You insult our intelligence. And we all read your suggestion about moving on from it, people don't seem to care.
Now, you want some positive feedback, lower the cost of keys to 50 zen. Get rid of the ridiculous 20 hours process to make keys, it should be instant. And do this all in the same update that you remove the so called bug, not several months later.
You could also fix some more pressing issues while you're at it, broken pvp, awful chest contents, terrible RNG, or giving us back the dungeons you removed from the game, but none of that costs you guys any micro-transactions so we wont hold our breathes waiting for it to be addressed.
It's not posthoc nonsense, believe it or not the forums could be just as toxic back then as they can be nowadays. He's not defending them, just saying how it is. If you want to get mad get mad at the devs taking a lousy paycheck for a workload they can't keep up with, and then save a special spot in the nine hells for the dev who basically called us all cheaters because the suits can't keep their sticks straight.
This is post hoc. They're giving an explanation of events after the fact, and providing nothing to prove that events unfolded the way they claim.
As for the devs, it'd be nice if they bothered to show up here. I have a few questions for them.
Just because you don;t believe it doesn't make it false. Devs aren't giving us any answers or clarification, they seem content to let the moderators take the flak.
No-one here is going to say you don;t have a reason to be upset, because we all are. The lack of proper timely bug fixes, vague tootltips, being called a cheater, no communication from devs and mostly HAMSTER loot, but personally I prefer to spew my vitriol for those deserve it the most.
No, the after the fact explanation and the lack of evidence other than, "we discussed this in the past," makes it appear false. They could easily show us a bug log. And there's no vitriol in my posts. I even offered positive feedback. But there's no devs in sight.
Only not one dev has replied, at all, nothing, no communication from a paid member of the company we are angry at right now.
There is no post hoc rationalistion, all I'm hearing is the deafening sound of silence from Cryptic.
It's not enough to be angry, you have to be angry at the right people.
Also, even if the decline button was initially added to the game so a player could decline loot the player didn't want, it's entirely possible, plausible, and reasonable that after adding keys to the game, the devs decided at any point in time since then to keep the decline button in the game for the exact purpose of allowing players to decline and thus not loose a key. If that's the case, then it was an intended feature at that point going forward and not a bug, even if it somehow started as a bug.
So even if it started off as a bug, it makes perfect sense that later on it was adopted by the devs since it makes total sense to adopt it.
In fact, this is most likely what happened in my opinion unless it can be proved otherwise.
@groglast Zebular never said not to be unhappy about the change. Not once.
He said that it wasn't a lie that it was a bug...as a few, granted vast the minority of players, have also stated.
Be as upset as you want. The change sucks. But accusing them of lying is only feedback about the horrible wording of the post. It was a bug...they didn't need to write it in a way that is accusatory...
But whether you believe it a bug or not is not the reason this change should be disliked. that's the horrible wording of the announcement. The reason you should be upset is because of the loot and the cost of the keys and the incentives to do stuff in game...etc... Not over a stupid word. The only reason I didn't say that as of yet was to avoid this debate...
Really...look at the actual arguments... Many are basically saying there was no way it wasn't intended due to how bad this that and the other thing is.
If I understand you correctly, you are arguing that whether they lied or not is not really a big deal. If that's what you're saying (and I could be misunderstanding you), then I disagree very strongly...
I see two primary issues here: - Issue one is I think they lied about something to their customers, intentionally and blatantly. The topic of what they lied about is irrespective to the issue of whether they lied or not. - Issue two is about the key changes, drop tables, and loot tables.
They are two separate, important issues to me. Both issues need to be discussed. If they lied as I currently believe they did, then the stuff about the keys is tangential since this company has lost me already. I'm at that point now, but this discussion is worth continuing since others are reading these posts of course.
If they admit and apologize for the lie, without trying to spin it, without trying to BS it, then I believe we can have a productive debate about the second issue. Until then, I just don't see it happening.
Why not accept that you cannot accept a truth and move on to actually get to providing substantial feedback on how the change can be made to be acceptable instead of harping on a conspiracy tirade?
Because you haven't really proven anything. We're supposed to take your word for it, that it's been a bug the whole time, you guys just didn't bother to fix it. That's not proof of anything, on it's face it's just post hoc nonsense. If you want us to believe it then prove it! There was a time that you would've got the benefit of the doubt, but after the coal ward tradebar store debacle, people understandably don't believe you.
Now, on to the those claiming that the "this is a bug" is a lie. It is not. The Moderators were told early on just after Module 3 that being able to open a chest and not take the contents but keep your key was indeed a bug. That the decline button was there for those who did not want the loot, not for those who did not want to consume their key. However, as this wasn't something of a real issue and there was a clique of people claiming it was an exploit to look and not take, it was deemed best to remain silent on the issue, lest we fuel a group of player's crusade to name and shame folks for "exploiting." In short, years ago, it was indeed deemed a bug but was not pursued as an exploit.
So, can we now please move on from this whole claim that they are lieing about it being a bug? Such does nothing to add to productive feedback. Thanks!
THATS POSTHOC NONSENSE!!!!!!!!!
They told you in secret years ago that it was a bug, but you're just now telling us after the fact? You're going to have to do better than that. You guys have screwed us so many times in the past year. This isn't going to end well if that's the defense you're planning on using.
This was not a statement to defend the change. It was a statement to clear up people calling the poorly conveyed notion that it was a "bug" as a lie. It was a bug, a bug that should have been fixed long long ago but for whatever reason, did not and it is clear that waiting so long was a poor decision. Regardless, it is being fixed now. I suggest we move on to provide feedback on what we expect out of this change, as it is clear by my own feedback early and almost everyone else here that the loot in the chests as they are now just plain sucks. That if we're going to be forced to consume a key on loot, that loot had better be worth the key, at the very least.
You keep repeating your talking points, but it's posthoc rationalization. Something said in secret years ago, you're just now telling us, but we should take your word for it. You insult our intelligence. And we all read your suggestion about moving on from it, people don't seem to care.
Now, you want some positive feedback, lower the cost of keys to 50 zen. Get rid of the ridiculous 20 hours process to make keys, it should be instant. And do this all in the same update that you remove the so called bug, not several months later.
You could also fix some more pressing issues while you're at it, broken pvp, awful chest contents, terrible RNG, or giving us back the dungeons you removed from the game, but none of that costs you guys any micro-transactions so we wont hold our breathes waiting for it to be addressed.
It's not posthoc nonsense, believe it or not the forums could be just as toxic back then as they can be nowadays. He's not defending them, just saying how it is. If you want to get mad get mad at the devs taking a lousy paycheck for a workload they can't keep up with, and then save a special spot in the nine hells for the dev who basically called us all cheaters because the suits can't keep their sticks straight.
This is post hoc. They're giving an explanation of events after the fact, and providing nothing to prove that events unfolded the way they claim.
As for the devs, it'd be nice if they bothered to show up here. I have a few questions for them.
Just because you don;t believe it doesn't make it false. Devs aren't giving us any answers or clarification, they seem content to let the moderators take the flak.
No-one here is going to say you don;t have a reason to be upset, because we all are. The lack of proper timely bug fixes, vague tootltips, being called a cheater, no communication from devs and mostly HAMSTER loot, but personally I prefer to spew my vitriol for those deserve it the most.
No, the after the fact explanation and the lack of evidence other than, "we discussed this in the past," makes it appear false. They could easily show us a bug log. And there's no vitriol in my posts. I even offered positive feedback. But there's no devs in sight.
Only not one dev has replied, at all, nothing, no communication from a paid member of the company we are angry at right now.
There is no post hoc rationalistion, all I'm hearing is the deafening sound of silence from Cryptic.
It's not enough to be angry, you have to be angry at the right people.
Other than their word, which to a lot of players doesn't carry much weight, they've offered nothing to prove they considered this a bug this whole time. After they say it's been a bug this whole time, they wait a few days and say something along the lines of, "We've considered this a bug for a long time now, we were just told not to tell you." Without anything to back that up, it's after the fact rationalization.
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silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
SEMANTICS.. it doesnt matter.
End of the day, we will be required to run a raid to get massive flawed RNG to get new weapons, that you know what.. will not at all be reasonable to obtain. Each mod is brining a new seperate layer of grinding/gating/gambling that is just flawed.
The game is spinning down hill very fast, not do some stupid news announcement, but by the sheer fact that these things are mostly unplayable and untenable and are just now creeping into this game. Even black ice empowerment, wasnt anywhere near this level.
We all hated the rng on the bracers, but between the choice of 100 major hes or diong this raid 1000 times over.. for purchased zen keys.. you get my drift.
The issue isnt the keys, its that they are needed to advance in the game in the first place. That is the real issue.
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
So, basically what you're saying is that unless they lie and say it was a lie, then they're lying? Why not accept that you cannot accept a truth and move on to actually get to providing substantial feedback on how the change can be made to be acceptable instead of harping on a conspiracy tirade?
If I understand your arguments correctly, you and ambisinisterr are basically marking the argument for everyone to move away from debating "whether they lied and if so what should be done about it" to the key issue. I don't see why we should ignore the former issue. It's just as important as the latter, if not moreso. If they lied, it's a really big deal.
No, he's trying to steer the thread, as a moderator should, in a direction where we can give feedback that the devs can use.
But to be honest right now am so mad 30 pages can be condensed in a short statement.
The loot sucks, what on earth makes you think I am gonna spend zen on it?
No, this makes sense now. The decline & not use a key HAS to be a bug.
Otherwise it would mean they actually designed a feature players actually want & use.
What would had happened after they press decline? Chest is not usable? Using the chest consumes another key?
It's all coming together... why are "discard" and "refine" placed next to each other? It's intentional! Some players WANT to easily discard their rare gear. I mean, in the real world you can lose your wallet just as easily as a piece of gum, right? It adds excitement and depth.
Why do some profession tasks take longer and yield less results? Some players must WANT lower efficency. It's an RPG afterall, we should never *just* look at efficiency. Spend those extra hours relaxing.
Really, any paladin or cleric should be forced to decline loot. Those classes rely on faith and charity, not rewards for work. It'd be outside the mythos to let them claim loot from a chest. That's why there's a decline button!
They WANT players to only run one or two dungeons a day. The bonus AD reflects that! The keys doubly reinforce that. Why make a game players want to play again? That's not the design ethos! They should only want to play it a little bit, and then stop... for some reason.
Why would eGWD have better bonus AD than Cloak Tower? That would mak the orcs feel bad, like they are somehow lesser minions. If their feelings are hurt, they might stop being orc-y or something. That's been a bug for years, we never intended the orcs to be self-aware.
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
@groglast Zebular never said not to be unhappy about the change. Not once.
He said that it wasn't a lie that it was a bug...as a few, granted vast the minority of players, have also stated.
Be as upset as you want. The change sucks. But accusing them of lying is only feedback about the horrible wording of the post. It was a bug...they didn't need to write it in a way that is accusatory...
But whether you believe it a bug or not is not the reason this change should be disliked. that's the horrible wording of the announcement. The reason you should be upset is because of the loot and the cost of the keys and the incentives to do stuff in game...etc... Not over a stupid word. The only reason I didn't say that as of yet was to avoid this debate...
Really...look at the actual arguments... Many are basically saying there was no way it wasn't intended due to how bad this that and the other thing is.
If I understand you correctly, you are arguing that whether they lied or not is not really a big deal. If that's what you're saying (and I could be misunderstanding you), then I disagree very strongly...
I see two primary issues here: - Issue one is I think they lied about something to their customers, intentionally and blatantly. The topic of what they lied about is irrespective to the issue of whether they lied or not. - Issue two is about the key changes, drop tables, and loot tables.
They are two separate, important issues to me. Both issues need to be discussed. If they lied as I currently believe they did, then the stuff about the keys is tangential since this company has lost me already. I'm at that point now, but this discussion is worth continuing since others are reading these posts of course.
If they admit and apologize for the lie, without trying to spin it, without trying to BS it, then I believe we can have a productive debate about the second issue. Until then, I just don't see it happening.
Why not accept that you cannot accept a truth and move on to actually get to providing substantial feedback on how the change can be made to be acceptable instead of harping on a conspiracy tirade?
Because you haven't really proven anything. We're supposed to take your word for it, that it's been a bug the whole time, you guys just didn't bother to fix it. That's not proof of anything, on it's face it's just post hoc nonsense. If you want us to believe it then prove it! There was a time that you would've got the benefit of the doubt, but after the coal ward tradebar store debacle, people understandably don't believe you.
Now, on to the those claiming that the "this is a bug" is a lie. It is not. The Moderators were told early on just after Module 3 that being able to open a chest and not take the contents but keep your key was indeed a bug. That the decline button was there for those who did not want the loot, not for those who did not want to consume their key. However, as this wasn't something of a real issue and there was a clique of people claiming it was an exploit to look and not take, it was deemed best to remain silent on the issue, lest we fuel a group of player's crusade to name and shame folks for "exploiting." In short, years ago, it was indeed deemed a bug but was not pursued as an exploit.
So, can we now please move on from this whole claim that they are lieing about it being a bug? Such does nothing to add to productive feedback. Thanks!
THATS POSTHOC NONSENSE!!!!!!!!!
They told you in secret years ago that it was a bug, but you're just now telling us after the fact? You're going to have to do better than that. You guys have screwed us so many times in the past year. This isn't going to end well if that's the defense you're planning on using.
This was not a statement to defend the change. It was a statement to clear up people calling the poorly conveyed notion that it was a "bug" as a lie. It was a bug, a bug that should have been fixed long long ago but for whatever reason, did not and it is clear that waiting so long was a poor decision. Regardless, it is being fixed now. I suggest we move on to provide feedback on what we expect out of this change, as it is clear by my own feedback early and almost everyone else here that the loot in the chests as they are now just plain sucks. That if we're going to be forced to consume a key on loot, that loot had better be worth the key, at the very least.
You keep repeating your talking points, but it's posthoc rationalization. Something said in secret years ago, you're just now telling us, but we should take your word for it. You insult our intelligence. And we all read your suggestion about moving on from it, people don't seem to care.
Now, you want some positive feedback, lower the cost of keys to 50 zen. Get rid of the ridiculous 20 hours process to make keys, it should be instant. And do this all in the same update that you remove the so called bug, not several months later.
You could also fix some more pressing issues while you're at it, broken pvp, awful chest contents, terrible RNG, or giving us back the dungeons you removed from the game, but none of that costs you guys any micro-transactions so we wont hold our breathes waiting for it to be addressed.
It's not posthoc nonsense, believe it or not the forums could be just as toxic back then as they can be nowadays. He's not defending them, just saying how it is. If you want to get mad get mad at the devs taking a lousy paycheck for a workload they can't keep up with, and then save a special spot in the nine hells for the dev who basically called us all cheaters because the suits can't keep their sticks straight.
This is post hoc. They're giving an explanation of events after the fact, and providing nothing to prove that events unfolded the way they claim.
As for the devs, it'd be nice if they bothered to show up here. I have a few questions for them.
Just because you don;t believe it doesn't make it false. Devs aren't giving us any answers or clarification, they seem content to let the moderators take the flak.
No-one here is going to say you don;t have a reason to be upset, because we all are. The lack of proper timely bug fixes, vague tootltips, being called a cheater, no communication from devs and mostly HAMSTER loot, but personally I prefer to spew my vitriol for those deserve it the most.
No, the after the fact explanation and the lack of evidence other than, "we discussed this in the past," makes it appear false. They could easily show us a bug log. And there's no vitriol in my posts. I even offered positive feedback. But there's no devs in sight.
Only not one dev has replied, at all, nothing, no communication from a paid member of the company we are angry at right now.
There is no post hoc rationalistion, all I'm hearing is the deafening sound of silence from Cryptic.
It's not enough to be angry, you have to be angry at the right people.
Other than their word, which to a lot of players doesn't carry much weight, they've offered nothing to prove they considered this a bug this whole time. After they say it's been a bug this whole time, they wait a few days and say something along the lines of, "We've considered this a bug for a long time now, we were just told not to tell you." Without anything to back that up, it's after the fact rationalization.
They have offered nothing, absolutely nothing. Not one dev has responded to this. There is no post hoc anything, there is nothing at all.
No devs have offered any evidence nor have they defended the unpaid moderators.
If you want post hoc rationalisation you are going to have to wait longer, because after 32 pages and 2 days, there has been nothing added by the devs.
So, basically what you're saying is that unless they lie and say it was a lie, then they're lying? Why not accept that you cannot accept a truth and move on to actually get to providing substantial feedback on how the change can be made to be acceptable instead of harping on a conspiracy tirade?
If I understand your arguments correctly, you and ambisinisterr are basically marking the argument for everyone to move away from debating "whether they lied and if so what should be done about it" to the key issue. I don't see why we should ignore the former issue. It's just as important as the latter, if not moreso. If they lied, it's a really big deal.
No, he's trying to steer the thread, as a moderator should, in a direction where we can give feedback that the devs can use.
But to be honest right now am so mad 30 pages can be condensed in a short statement.
The loot sucks, what on earth makes you think I am gonna spend zen on it?
They could easily handle this if an actual dev came here and talked to us. We've had a lot of question, issues and feedback that have needed to be addressed. We've received little traction on serious issues. I could handle this nonsense about keys, if they actually bothered fixing things that the player base considers more pressing matters. But as usual here, we get nothing.
Dont be pedantic with stupid comments on zeb is not the boss. Also arrogant to assume your line of feedback is the right direction. Last i checked this was an open forum, not jumpingmonks guaranteed get a dev reply topic.
Personally i feel any1 involved with knowledge of declinebuggate has lost credibility. What else has he not told us, what else are they holding back...
Comments
Zebular never said not to be unhappy about the change. Not once.
He said that it wasn't a lie that it was a bug...as a few, granted vast the minority of players, have also stated.
Be as upset as you want. The change sucks. But accusing them of lying is only feedback about the horrible wording of the post. It was a bug...they didn't need to write it in a way that is accusatory...
But whether you believe it a bug or not is not the reason this change should be disliked. that's the horrible wording of the announcement. The reason you should be upset is because of the loot and the cost of the keys and the incentives to do stuff in game...etc...
Not over a stupid word. The only reason I didn't say that as of yet was to avoid this debate...
Really...look at the actual arguments...
Many are basically saying there was no way it wasn't intended due to how bad this that and the other thing is.
Now lets look honestly at what happened, after the DD removal and key introduction, this is not the first time this was attempted. First time the change was ninja added to mod6 or 7 and was revertad after a couple of days because it was buggy as hell.
Now recently to subvert the keys the Devs added a box inside a box (FBI). -- I will never use a key in a box inside a box that gives me BtC item not for my class.
Now looks like the devs saw from the few people who run FBI, that we look at the chest, do not like what inside and leave it unclaimed.. And hence the change we see coming.
Next mod we have 3 chests, but we can't have it that people will farm the 'keys' once and then start doing the raid. We must force them either buy the keys or go nuts with grind.... and here we are...
Lets leave the really badly worded announcement for a minute.
Today top gear has the following:
Rings: +5 from FBI, CN, PoM, ToDG Drop rate so low it's silly, if I'll want to get the rings I'll need how many hundreds of keys for a ring ? Or thousands?
Armor:
Not only needs restoration and upkeep, but also getting it is extremely difficult, the box inside the box gives the WRONG CLASS.
Worse, next 'mod' will have 3 chests with same HAMSTER with minimal chance of something useful.
Weapons: Nothing smart to say here, because the devs listened to all our feedback about the previous things, we get again RNG gated stuff. With 3 chests !
We've said plenty of times about progress and RNG, RNG is not progress.
MMORPGS are all based on this:
And RNG is not this, running hundreds of times the same thing and not progressing a bit is not working.
Now how it's related to the keys and cash grab. lets say I want to grind it all, I can make few keys and start grinding hoping for the RNG gods.
If the ring chance is 0.5% now I need 500 runs on average to get it, 1k runs for 2 rings.
So with 10 runs per day of something we can average it to 100 days, sad.
Lets say I must use the key each time, now it's 1k * 18 hours per key, this is 750 days. Good luck with that.
(And even if I cut it in health because we have the other chest, it's 375 days. So......)
2) As I said, I haven't even started reading this thread until two nights ago. I actually just had time to finally finish reading it this morning, shortly before I have to leave for work. I rarely reply to a thread if I haven't read it fully.
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We are exploiters. We have cheated the system to gain an unfair advantage and have done so for several mods. We should probably be banned alongside all those that ran their bot armies to farm rank 5 enchants.
Now, you want some positive feedback, lower the cost of keys to 50 zen. Get rid of the ridiculous 20 hours process to make keys, it should be instant. And do this all in the same update that you remove the so called bug, not several months later.
You could also fix some more pressing issues while you're at it, broken pvp, awful chest contents, terrible RNG, or giving us back the dungeons you removed from the game, but none of that costs you guys any micro-transactions so we wont hold our breathes waiting for it to be addressed.
I see two primary issues here:
- Issue one is I think they lied about something to their customers, intentionally and blatantly. The topic of what they lied about is irrespective to the issue of whether they lied or not.
- Issue two is about the key changes, drop tables, and loot tables.
They are two separate, important issues to me. They are distinct issues. Both issues need to be discussed. If they lied as I currently believe they did, then the stuff about the keys is tangential since this company has lost me already. I'm at that point now, but this discussion is worth continuing since others are reading these posts of course.
If they admit and apologize for the lie, without trying to spin it, without trying to BS it, then I believe we can have a productive debate about the second issue. Until then, I just don't see it happening.
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This "nopeek" was stated as a bug then, but apparently you disagree or are you telling me that the playerbase turned the devs head??
U really expect me to believe that no new dev is introduced to the MAJOR "bugs" this platform has, if this is true they really are incompetent bunch of poppycoks.
We are at a point where shitload of the veteran playerbase and paying customers are gonna leave.
Nothing you or any Dev or Mod is gonna fix that.
Here's my problem with how this change was communicated to me. I open and see what @xeltey open with.....
"There is currently a bug on the live server whereby a player may view the rewards without using a key. This bug has been fixed. When this fix gets to the live server, opening a chest will consume the key, give the player the rewards, and display those rewards to the player. To ensure that keys are not accidentally used, the user interface in game will alert you to which key would be consumed and ask for confirmation before continuing.
Since this bug has been live for a long time and we believe that some players may have come to rely on this bug, we are providing advance notice of the change."
and
"We are pleased to address this bug because it resolves an inequity between the minority of players who knew about it and the majority who did not"
So basically the game makers are telling me that I was player who utilized a bug that caused an inequity between my fellow players, by simply declining from getting near worthless treasure at the expense of a key.... <----- This does not make me happy. I thought the "Decline" button was a feature added to the game when Daily Dungeons were removed as to help us in deciding whether it was worth the expending the key... but now i'm being told it was a bug..... This is where i'm really upset, I do not intentionally use bugs and if I find something I hope on the bug part of this forum and see if its there, and everything I have ever found has already been reported....
The gamer makers have massed people that used the decline button in the game, which I thought was feature added to the game, as causing an inequity between players..... This just is not right... bug or not, the communication was all wrong...
again keep up the good fight CM's
to the gamers lets not lose sight of the issue this post has opened up, I think most of us are fed up with the crappy RnG of this game and now with this change coming into effect, its going to cost up lots of time and money for crappy RnG..... this is what we need to focus on!
As for the devs, it'd be nice if they bothered to show up here. I have a few questions for them.
Either its lying now, lying since mod3 or just incompetence since mod3.
Also your development team as a whole must operate in some cowboy fashion if you cannot even maintain a simple bug log.
Im quite concerned do you even get security audited / checked. Is our data safe on your servers because if bugs are not logged what other basic forms of process and governance are not followed.
No-one here is going to say you don;t have a reason to be upset, because we all are. The lack of proper timely bug fixes, vague tootltips, being called a cheater, no communication from devs and mostly HAMSTER loot, but personally I prefer to spew my vitriol for those deserve it the most.
Calling what I'm saying a conspiracy makes it look like you lack valid arguments to defend yourself with. You're resorting to dishonest mischaracterizations and straw mans.
If I understand your arguments correctly, you and ambisinisterr are basically marking the argument for everyone to move away from debating "whether they lied and if so what should be done about it" to the key issue. I don't see why we should ignore the former issue. It's just as important as the latter, if not moreso. If they lied, it's a really big deal.
This is the decision makers puppeting some mods to quell the outrage. Plain and simple. "Tell them this to stop the bleeding". ...
And even if this was true, it changes nothing about this decision and game killing debacle.
It IS A LIE and the powers that be don't have the guts to fall on their swords, so they make mods lie more for them.
Truly pathetic...
Pretty sure Zeb isn't a boss of anything at Cryptic. Just an unpaid volunteer trying to steer this conversation into a direction that if we're lucky a dev might read and maybe even respond to, though right now I think I have more chance of getting a +5 Orcus ring.
If we're gonna be swearing into the wind we might as well be swearing in the same direction.
So you've known that this was a bug and you were still (rarely) not taking the loot from the chest. Did I get that right?
Were you maybe discarding your key after that to make it all legit?
At least I have an excuse that I thought this was a feature.
I wanted to make a more useful comment but after reading the 32 pages... what for? I'm done.
There is no post hoc rationalistion, all I'm hearing is the deafening sound of silence from Cryptic.
It's not enough to be angry, you have to be angry at the right people.
So even if it started off as a bug, it makes perfect sense that later on it was adopted by the devs since it makes total sense to adopt it.
In fact, this is most likely what happened in my opinion unless it can be proved otherwise.
End of the day, we will be required to run a raid to get massive flawed RNG to get new weapons, that you know what.. will not at all be reasonable to obtain. Each mod is brining a new seperate layer of grinding/gating/gambling that is just flawed.
The game is spinning down hill very fast, not do some stupid news announcement, but by the sheer fact that these things are mostly unplayable and untenable and are just now creeping into this game. Even black ice empowerment, wasnt anywhere near this level.
We all hated the rng on the bracers, but between the choice of 100 major hes or diong this raid 1000 times over.. for purchased zen keys.. you get my drift.
The issue isnt the keys, its that they are needed to advance in the game in the first place. That is the real issue.
But to be honest right now am so mad 30 pages can be condensed in a short statement.
The loot sucks, what on earth makes you think I am gonna spend zen on it?
Otherwise it would mean they actually designed a feature players actually want & use.
What would had happened after they press decline? Chest is not usable? Using the chest consumes another key?
It's all coming together... why are "discard" and "refine" placed next to each other? It's intentional! Some players WANT to easily discard their rare gear. I mean, in the real world you can lose your wallet just as easily as a piece of gum, right? It adds excitement and depth.
Why do some profession tasks take longer and yield less results? Some players must WANT lower efficency. It's an RPG afterall, we should never *just* look at efficiency. Spend those extra hours relaxing.
Really, any paladin or cleric should be forced to decline loot. Those classes rely on faith and charity, not rewards for work. It'd be outside the mythos to let them claim loot from a chest. That's why there's a decline button!
They WANT players to only run one or two dungeons a day. The bonus AD reflects that! The keys doubly reinforce that. Why make a game players want to play again? That's not the design ethos! They should only want to play it a little bit, and then stop... for some reason.
Why would eGWD have better bonus AD than Cloak Tower? That would mak the orcs feel bad, like they are somehow lesser minions. If their feelings are hurt, they might stop being orc-y or something. That's been a bug for years, we never intended the orcs to be self-aware.
No devs have offered any evidence nor have they defended the unpaid moderators.
If you want post hoc rationalisation you are going to have to wait longer, because after 32 pages and 2 days, there has been nothing added by the devs.
Dont be pedantic with stupid comments on zeb is not the boss. Also arrogant to assume your line of feedback is the right direction. Last i checked this was an open forum, not jumpingmonks guaranteed get a dev reply topic.
Personally i feel any1 involved with knowledge of declinebuggate has lost credibility. What else has he not told us, what else are they holding back...