I've only started playing this game since the beginning of 2016, so I don't have any knowledge of how things were before. To be honest, I wasn't even aware that not looting the chest didn't consume the key. Based on my experience with other MMOs, I assumed key consumption would happen on opening the chest and that the Decline button would not actually loot the contents. So from a mechanic perspective, fixing the *bug* seems like an appropriate thing to do.
Now considering the relative worth of the chest contents, I think drastic changes need to be made in the loot tables. Honestly, the game is just way too much grind and gating. You have to grind this, then wait xx hours to make this, all for a minute chance to get what you really want. That type of setup just isn't fun especially for those who are altaholics. I get the reason, you want to gate the players so that they don't consume content faster than you can create it. That's entirely reasonable. The problem is the gating mechanisms you implement are not fun and completely frustrating if the RNG gods hate you.
If it were me, I'd completely rethink the loot, gearing and gating mechanisms prior to making any change. I would strongly suggest eliminating as much RNG as possible for gear progression. I'm fine with RNG for cosmetic items.
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cromejohnsenMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 207Arc User
they have run out of excuses and " i would have said it like this or i think what he/she meant was *************** ( not important at all because we know its a lie or made up ****)" . They either are going to delete lancers post because of some random excuse or just remain silent or try to talk they way out of this like cryptic did.
ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
edited October 2016
By communication I mean a big shiny sticky saying "abuse it while you can!"
I already said leashing bosses fell into this category. The developers chose to delay addressing the issue for a few months with that EXPLOIT available and used by EVERYBODY including ME. It was not condoned behavior but neither was it against the rules. It was left up to the players...and frankly at launch the bosses were nuts and needed to be leashed in order to beat certain ones.
One dev had actually responded to a thread saying so. It was never advertised in big flashing signs to leash, never not allowed to be said but never something the company told players to do on any large scale communication. An on asked basis only and even then normally only by saying it is up to the player to choose whether they feel it crosses the line or not.
Using the decline button to avoid using a key was not condoned. We did not go screaming to the world to not use keys...but you, me Zeb and all the devs were allowed to. They chose not to address the unintended behavior.
The developers decide whether or not to issue punishments for certain behavior and they will really only do that when it is prioritized as a fix. When they choose not to fix it ASAP they also choose not to issue punishments...but they also may choose not to tell people to do it. It's happened numerous times in 3 years.
That doesn't mean they won't answer individual questions. They will. We will. But we will also be told not to blair it and tell everybody to abuse it in a announcement thread.
Some things we will answer when asked. If you had asked you would have gotten the answer that it is up to you to choose but it is not an intended mechanic.
I'm surprised Zeb had posted that directly, but then again it was well known by that point. In any case, I have already told you that they did not deem it as bug abuse...they deem it as a bug they chose not to address until now. Period.
If you want to continue this discussion further, we can do that via a PM but I will not be responding to you again within this thread @metalldjt as this thread is not about what has been said over the course of two years.
Its the same team who think the amount of vblood and relic hunting is appropriate.
IF that same team is going to put a package together of loot and what is acceptable.. just contemplate that for awhile.
This is why I really don't buy the bug excuse. They don't design drop tables while completely ignoring chest mechanics. Drop tables have horrible odds because they know that players don't have to consume a key every time they get a terrible roll. If this really was a bug and they continued to design drop tables around it for years it's a feature at that point whether they want to admit it or not.
NEVERWINTER IS THE GAME THAT EVEN A DEVELOPER CANNOT ADMIT THAT THE LOGIN SCREEN IS A FEATURE NOT A BUG.
The login screen is a feature. *winces from the inevitable*
Its the same team who think the amount of vblood and relic hunting is appropriate.
IF that same team is going to put a package together of loot and what is acceptable.. just contemplate that for awhile.
This is why I really don't buy the bug excuse. They don't design drop tables while completely ignoring chest mechanics. Drop tables have horrible odds because they know that players don't have to consume a key every time they get a terrible roll. If this really was a bug and they continued to design drop tables around it for years it's a feature at that point whether they want to admit it or not.
NEVERWINTER IS THE GAME THAT EVEN A DEVELOPER CANNOT ADMIT THAT THE LOGIN SCREEN IS A FEATURE NOT A BUG.
The login screen is a feature. *winces from the inevitable*
" Regardless, it is being fixed now. I suggest we move on to provide feedback on what we expect out of this change, as it is clear by my own feedback early and almost everyone else here that the loot in the chests as they are now just plain sucks. That if we're going to be forced to consume a key on loot, that loot had better be worth the key, at the very least."
I will concede that these words are the wisest ones. It is a shame (and speaks VOLUMES) that there is very little faith in that feedback getting to the ears that matter.
Its the same team who think the amount of vblood and relic hunting is appropriate.
IF that same team is going to put a package together of loot and what is acceptable.. just contemplate that for awhile.
This is why I really don't buy the bug excuse. They don't design drop tables while completely ignoring chest mechanics. Drop tables have horrible odds because they know that players don't have to consume a key every time they get a terrible roll. If this really was a bug and they continued to design drop tables around it for years it's a feature at that point whether they want to admit it or not.
NEVERWINTER IS THE GAME THAT EVEN A DEVELOPER CANNOT ADMIT THAT THE LOGIN SCREEN IS A FEATURE NOT A BUG.
The login screen is a feature. *winces from the inevitable*
Finally a developer shows up.... and responds to a sarcastic comment. Not a word about any of the feedback provided. Lovely.
Its the same team who think the amount of vblood and relic hunting is appropriate.
IF that same team is going to put a package together of loot and what is acceptable.. just contemplate that for awhile.
This is why I really don't buy the bug excuse. They don't design drop tables while completely ignoring chest mechanics. Drop tables have horrible odds because they know that players don't have to consume a key every time they get a terrible roll. If this really was a bug and they continued to design drop tables around it for years it's a feature at that point whether they want to admit it or not.
NEVERWINTER IS THE GAME THAT EVEN A DEVELOPER CANNOT ADMIT THAT THE LOGIN SCREEN IS A FEATURE NOT A BUG.
The login screen is a feature. *winces from the inevitable*
Finally a developer shows up.... and responds to a sarcastic comment. Not a word about any of the feedback provided. Lovely.
I don't think there is anything I can say that would assuage anyone at this time other than, "We are rolling back the changes." I can't make that call but all of the feedback we have received and HOW it was received is certainly noted. I will certainly talk to some people about the reaction.
I just want to be clear, I am not promising anything, I am just stating, "you have been heard."
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ambisinisterrMember, Neverwinter ModeratorPosts: 10,462Community Moderator
Its the same team who think the amount of vblood and relic hunting is appropriate.
IF that same team is going to put a package together of loot and what is acceptable.. just contemplate that for awhile.
This is why I really don't buy the bug excuse. They don't design drop tables while completely ignoring chest mechanics. Drop tables have horrible odds because they know that players don't have to consume a key every time they get a terrible roll. If this really was a bug and they continued to design drop tables around it for years it's a feature at that point whether they want to admit it or not.
NEVERWINTER IS THE GAME THAT EVEN A DEVELOPER CANNOT ADMIT THAT THE LOGIN SCREEN IS A FEATURE NOT A BUG.
The login screen is a feature. *winces from the inevitable*
Finally a developer shows up.... and responds to a sarcastic comment. Not a word about any of the feedback provided. Lovely.
I don't think there is anything I can say that would assuage anyone at this time other than, "We are rolling back the changes." I can't make that call but all of the feedback we have received and HOW it was received is certainly noted. I will certainly talk to some people about the reaction.
I just want to be clear, I am not promising anything, I am just stating, "you have been heard."
And that is something more than what has been said up to now.
Out of words already, have said my opinion since the nightmare that mod 6 was and even if i had some left pretty much everything has being said here. From good solutions to the most brutal honest thoughs that the moderators can tolerate.
Its the same team who think the amount of vblood and relic hunting is appropriate.
IF that same team is going to put a package together of loot and what is acceptable.. just contemplate that for awhile.
This is why I really don't buy the bug excuse. They don't design drop tables while completely ignoring chest mechanics. Drop tables have horrible odds because they know that players don't have to consume a key every time they get a terrible roll. If this really was a bug and they continued to design drop tables around it for years it's a feature at that point whether they want to admit it or not.
NEVERWINTER IS THE GAME THAT EVEN A DEVELOPER CANNOT ADMIT THAT THE LOGIN SCREEN IS A FEATURE NOT A BUG.
The login screen is a feature. *winces from the inevitable*
Finally a developer shows up.... and responds to a sarcastic comment. Not a word about any of the feedback provided. Lovely.
I don't think there is anything I can say that would assuage anyone at this time other than, "We are rolling back the changes." I can't make that call but all of the feedback we have received and HOW it was received is certainly noted. I will certainly talk to some people about the reaction.
I just want to be clear, I am not promising anything, I am just stating, "you have been heard."
Since I have your ear. Lower the zen cost of keys to 50, 250 is too little incentive. Make the loot better or give us better RNG, and do this on the same update where you change the keys. Waiting months to balance is unacceptable.
Offtopic(but screw it, I'm on a rant): Give us our old dungeons back, give us the remaining leveling skirmishes as CTAs(defend the village, ect.), and how about some PVP fixes, we've been waiting a long time to get to that.
Ok, i was taking a small sneak peak into the game, in my guild: 2 people, me included. Grats Cryptic again, i have a deja vu with Mod 6.
In my Alliance, which is Legit Alpha following words:
and
and
response
Last picture speaks for itself, no comments needed, maybe just that when i looked around i saw maybe 4 players around me in PE.
P.s: Sorry i messed up the resize, but you will get my message anyways.
The real honest man is honest from conviction of what is right, not from policy.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
silverkeltMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,235Arc User
I dont think it matters anymore..
I was hoping this was be a catalyst for them to start listening across the board to issues we have had since mod 10 (inventory, grinding/gating, removal of services) , but alas, we will get some HAMSTER apology (that for some reason some of you CARE about getting.. whooopie doopie) I was more concerned about the game and what and how it is going forward) as I have had serious concerns now since release of this mod.
Frankly I wouldnt be surprised if they did this to cover up the HAMSTER about mod 10.. lets release some barn burning topic, cover up our monetization schemes.. We can even relent a little, and see , how MUCH we have given back.. which is of course crock food. HAMSTER it.. jeebus didnt get raised with a soulforge for this HAMSTER to be poured down on us.
ITs just the tip of the iceburg, new mod , will have any more of these things.
Until player base can say NO to rng inside of RNG.. there is no real future in this game.
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jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
I was hoping this was be a catalyst for them to start listening across the board to issues we have had since mod 10 (inventory, grinding/gating, removal of services) , but alas, we will get some HAMSTER apology (that for some reason some of you CARE about getting.. whooopie doopie) I was more concerned about the game and what and how it is going forward) as I have had serious concerns now since release of this mod.
Frankly I wouldnt be surprised if they did this to cover up the HAMSTER about mod 10.. lets release some barn burning topic, cover up our monetization schemes.. We can even relent a little, and see , how MUCH we have given back.. which is of course crock food. HAMSTER it.. jeebus didnt get raised with a soulforge for this HAMSTER to be poured down on us.
ITs just the tip of the iceburg, new mod , will have any more of these things.
Until player base can say NO to rng inside of RNG.. there is no real future in this game.
Can we just skip all that and go straight to the bribe?
I don't think there is anything I can say that would assuage anyone at this time other than, "We are rolling back the changes." I can't make that call but all of the feedback we have received and HOW it was received is certainly noted. I will certainly talk to some people about the reaction.
I just want to be clear, I am not promising anything, I am just stating, "you have been heard."
I actually disagree with you on this, but it's nice to know that it's been heard.
That doesn't mean terribly much at this point, though. A whole lot of players feel like you've broken faith with them, and it'd be nice to see some of that trust restored. Saying nothing just seems to tell us that "Oh, we hear you. We aren't going to actually *do* anything about it, but we noticed you're all upset."
I mean, I think you heard everyone when coal. wards were taken off the T-bar market, too, right?
There have been some excellent suggestions made as to how you can win back some trust on this - I'd point you to IronZerg and BeckyLunatic, in particular. It'd be nice to hear that you're looking at implementing some / all of those suggestions ASAP (not "in a future mod"), with details about why or why not.
Otherwise, you're going to continue to sound like you're simply patronizing us - and at this point, can you really blame us?
I want to see payroll stubs from when we the players programed in a decline button. Because where I am sitting you just called me and everyone I play with a cheater. I sure don't write code or have any experience "YOU" made this game not us. If this was unintended why the heck did you let it go on for years? You seemingly grandfathered in your mistake of never removing the option into the life blood of the game. This change is bogus, your reasoning is flawed and calling us the exploiters by a bunch of rushed hack content is utterly insulting. Not only did you just make invoking changes for us now we lose a half day for emergency maintenance on brand new content console players "were" looking forward to but now look we are being blatantly accused as cheaters. I've seen guild mates talk about or straight up quit in the last 24 hours on a new module, people whom I've played with about a year or longer. Is this how you you kick off new content by <font color="orange">HAMSTER</font> the entire player base over. I can't laugh anymore on how stupid this is or any of their antics anymore. Get your act together take some happy pills and reconsider yet another toilet bowl decision.
Guardian Fighter: SM Conqueror
[]Full Metal Witch[] 4149 TiL Guild: (X1) The Legendary Outlaws
"The Best of the Best" "Nobody does it better" #TLO BiS
0
jumpingmorksMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 876Arc User
There's not a whole lot you can say to a lynch mob that would calm them down, so I think Panderus has said all he can and am happy with that but at the end of the day, I expect little else.
Its the same team who think the amount of vblood and relic hunting is appropriate.
IF that same team is going to put a package together of loot and what is acceptable.. just contemplate that for awhile.
This is why I really don't buy the bug excuse. They don't design drop tables while completely ignoring chest mechanics. Drop tables have horrible odds because they know that players don't have to consume a key every time they get a terrible roll. If this really was a bug and they continued to design drop tables around it for years it's a feature at that point whether they want to admit it or not.
NEVERWINTER IS THE GAME THAT EVEN A DEVELOPER CANNOT ADMIT THAT THE LOGIN SCREEN IS A FEATURE NOT A BUG.
The login screen is a feature. *winces from the inevitable*
Finally a developer shows up.... and responds to a sarcastic comment. Not a word about any of the feedback provided. Lovely.
I don't think there is anything I can say that would assuage anyone at this time other than, "We are rolling back the changes." I can't make that call but all of the feedback we have received and HOW it was received is certainly noted. I will certainly talk to some people about the reaction.
I just want to be clear, I am not promising anything, I am just stating, "you have been heard."
Listening is the beginning. But 2 days have already passed and tomorrow is Friday. I suggest you have a serious conversation internally and do it fast so that there can be some kind of positive way out of this. None of us want to see this game fail. But there's got to be some real and meaningful change in attitude towards the people that pay the wages. (yes that's us - the costumers, not management/owners)
Its the same team who think the amount of vblood and relic hunting is appropriate.
IF that same team is going to put a package together of loot and what is acceptable.. just contemplate that for awhile.
This is why I really don't buy the bug excuse. They don't design drop tables while completely ignoring chest mechanics. Drop tables have horrible odds because they know that players don't have to consume a key every time they get a terrible roll. If this really was a bug and they continued to design drop tables around it for years it's a feature at that point whether they want to admit it or not.
NEVERWINTER IS THE GAME THAT EVEN A DEVELOPER CANNOT ADMIT THAT THE LOGIN SCREEN IS A FEATURE NOT A BUG.
The login screen is a feature. *winces from the inevitable*
Finally a developer shows up.... and responds to a sarcastic comment. Not a word about any of the feedback provided. Lovely.
I don't think there is anything I can say that would assuage anyone at this time other than, "We are rolling back the changes." I can't make that call but all of the feedback we have received and HOW it was received is certainly noted. I will certainly talk to some people about the reaction.
I just want to be clear, I am not promising anything, I am just stating, "you have been heard."
I was kind of hoping more for elaboration on how you're changing loot in the wake of the changes. If the plan is to "fix" chests and not touch loot then I guess that's really about the only other answer that would work.
This isn't just about the keys. This is a culmination of every decision made with no regards to the player. We said "No more HE's", so you gave us more HE's. We said "No more empowerment mechanics", so you gave us more empowerable armor. We said "Fix inventory issues" so you gave us 100 new types of fish and brand new RP stones. You guys aren't listening to what your customers want out of your game; instead, you're trying to force-feed us the garbage YOU think we ought to enjoy. The Mod 6 mentality is still alive and well, you guys just managed to disguise it for a little while.
Since you're going to nickel and dime us on loot, why don't you add some of those sweet Mod 6 damage spikes back in so you can sell some more health stones too.
I'm used to the whole "former in-game progression is now cash-shop only thing," but this whole "and by the way anyone who played the game is a cheater" thing is new. Are you going to ban the "exploiters" too?
Comments
Now considering the relative worth of the chest contents, I think drastic changes need to be made in the loot tables. Honestly, the game is just way too much grind and gating. You have to grind this, then wait xx hours to make this, all for a minute chance to get what you really want. That type of setup just isn't fun especially for those who are altaholics. I get the reason, you want to gate the players so that they don't consume content faster than you can create it. That's entirely reasonable. The problem is the gating mechanisms you implement are not fun and completely frustrating if the RNG gods hate you.
If it were me, I'd completely rethink the loot, gearing and gating mechanisms prior to making any change. I would strongly suggest eliminating as much RNG as possible for gear progression. I'm fine with RNG for cosmetic items.
I already said leashing bosses fell into this category. The developers chose to delay addressing the issue for a few months with that EXPLOIT available and used by EVERYBODY including ME. It was not condoned behavior but neither was it against the rules. It was left up to the players...and frankly at launch the bosses were nuts and needed to be leashed in order to beat certain ones.
One dev had actually responded to a thread saying so. It was never advertised in big flashing signs to leash, never not allowed to be said but never something the company told players to do on any large scale communication. An on asked basis only and even then normally only by saying it is up to the player to choose whether they feel it crosses the line or not.
Using the decline button to avoid using a key was not condoned. We did not go screaming to the world to not use keys...but you, me Zeb and all the devs were allowed to. They chose not to address the unintended behavior.
The developers decide whether or not to issue punishments for certain behavior and they will really only do that when it is prioritized as a fix. When they choose not to fix it ASAP they also choose not to issue punishments...but they also may choose not to tell people to do it. It's happened numerous times in 3 years.
That doesn't mean they won't answer individual questions. They will. We will. But we will also be told not to blair it and tell everybody to abuse it in a announcement thread.
Some things we will answer when asked. If you had asked you would have gotten the answer that it is up to you to choose but it is not an intended mechanic.
I'm surprised Zeb had posted that directly, but then again it was well known by that point. In any case, I have already told you that they did not deem it as bug abuse...they deem it as a bug they chose not to address until now. Period.
If you want to continue this discussion further, we can do that via a PM but I will not be responding to you again within this thread @metalldjt as this thread is not about what has been said over the course of two years.
I will concede that these words are the wisest ones.
It is a shame (and speaks VOLUMES) that there is very little faith in that feedback getting to the ears that matter.
They gonna wear you like the panda hat in Tropic Thunder.
I just want to be clear, I am not promising anything, I am just stating, "you have been heard."
Thank you!
Since this news came out all i can think is:
Offtopic(but screw it, I'm on a rant): Give us our old dungeons back, give us the remaining leveling skirmishes as CTAs(defend the village, ect.), and how about some PVP fixes, we've been waiting a long time to get to that.
In my Alliance, which is Legit Alpha following words:
and
and
response
Last picture speaks for itself, no comments needed, maybe just that when i looked around i saw maybe 4 players around me in PE.
P.s: Sorry i messed up the resize, but you will get my message anyways.
Robert E. Lee
I only believe in statistics that I doctored myself.
Winston Churchill
The human race is a herd. Here we are, unique, eternal aspects of consciousness with an infinity of potential, and we have allowed ourselves to become an unthinking, unquestioning blob of conformity and uniformity. A herd. Once we concede to the herd mentality, we can be controlled and directed by a tiny few. And we are.
David Icke
I was hoping this was be a catalyst for them to start listening across the board to issues we have had since mod 10 (inventory, grinding/gating, removal of services) , but alas, we will get some HAMSTER apology (that for some reason some of you CARE about getting.. whooopie doopie) I was more concerned about the game and what and how it is going forward) as I have had serious concerns now since release of this mod.
Frankly I wouldnt be surprised if they did this to cover up the HAMSTER about mod 10.. lets release some barn burning topic, cover up our monetization schemes.. We can even relent a little, and see , how MUCH we have given back.. which is of course crock food. HAMSTER it.. jeebus didnt get raised with a soulforge for this HAMSTER to be poured down on us.
ITs just the tip of the iceburg, new mod , will have any more of these things.
Until player base can say NO to rng inside of RNG.. there is no real future in this game.
That doesn't mean terribly much at this point, though. A whole lot of players feel like you've broken faith with them, and it'd be nice to see some of that trust restored. Saying nothing just seems to tell us that "Oh, we hear you. We aren't going to actually *do* anything about it, but we noticed you're all upset."
I mean, I think you heard everyone when coal. wards were taken off the T-bar market, too, right?
There have been some excellent suggestions made as to how you can win back some trust on this - I'd point you to IronZerg and BeckyLunatic, in particular. It'd be nice to hear that you're looking at implementing some / all of those suggestions ASAP (not "in a future mod"), with details about why or why not.
Otherwise, you're going to continue to sound like you're simply patronizing us - and at this point, can you really blame us?
[]Full Metal Witch[]
4149 TiL
Guild: (X1) The Legendary Outlaws
"The Best of the Best"
"Nobody does it better"
#TLO BiS
Since you're going to nickel and dime us on loot, why don't you add some of those sweet Mod 6 damage spikes back in so you can sell some more health stones too.