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Official Feedback Thread: Scourge Warlock changes

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  • d4rkh0rs3d4rkh0rs3 Member Posts: 382 Arc User
    @ghoulz66 you said, "I never even see SWs use it in melee range during pvp." Hence the mention.

    Eldritch Blast AoE should proc the hellbringer class feature for FoE, no?
  • ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    d4rkh0rs3 said:

    @ghoulz66 you said, "I never even see SWs use it in melee range during pvp." Hence the mention.



    Eldritch Blast AoE should proc the hellbringer class feature for FoE, no?

    Seriously, you have got to be kidding me here. Go test that out yourself and time how long it'll take to fully debuff things. Really, try that in a party. A crappy class feature for mobs. Does Dust to Dust face this kind of problem? Of course not. So why should Hellbringer get the short end of the stick?

    It's not just about FoE, the SW needs more AoE DPS, but at least the class feature will have synergy with something.
  • jayc12ojayc12o Member Posts: 14 Arc User
    No adjustments to how fast we lose our sparks when out of combat ( opponent runs away with ambush ring)?
    4k IL LGPG PVP SW
  • treesclimbertreesclimber Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,161 Arc User
    edited July 2016

    Keep in mind that any rework of Spheres that wouldn't involve firing when enemies are in range would require a new animation, which takes a lot longer to implement.

    Not saying it's a bad idea, just utterly impossible for this set of changes, and would require more substantial time budgeting down the road than may be feasible.

    Not really, the animations would be the same, while not activated they float around you as if no enemie were nearby (on live now), when activated they will search targets like they do now, in fact i dont think much more than coding (no apearance editing) is needed.
    amenar said:



    Do you guys have a camera in here? This is what I was working on. The patch note will be:

    • Scourge Warlock: Infernal Spheres: No longer attacks enemies that get near you. Instead, sends a sphere out to targets that attack you.
    @amenar Is the attack rate of each sphere still the same? This changes nothing in the trouble i had in pvp if 1. we cant control when to cast or 2. they will attack the enemy with the same amount of time between them that they now have? Because currently they expend in a second or less.

    And this will now be much worse in pve because we actually need the target to attack us for us to be abble to do some damage to him. Sorry but i didn't like the idea. Adding a control over the spheres would provide better survival in pvp, situational use in pve - if i want to do damage i make them attack, if need protection i keep them, it would be very versatil, they dont seem very appealing now.
    Post edited by treesclimber on

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  • thefabricantthefabricant Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 5,248 Arc User
    amenar said:


    @amenar I know I would be pushing me luck here, but would it be possible at some point to have some "test weapons" introduced to the game with low damage (so that they would only be used for testing) no power and a constant range on weapon damage (for example 100-100). This would make it a lot easier for us to test things and provide better feedback (you know, like that essence defiler hitting for a convenient 1000, having a more consistent damage range would be a HUGE benefit to us). Also, thanks for all the great work all round :)

    They are super convenient, and I use them all the time. :)

    We have made a set for every class that we use internally for functionality testing. I'll mention to the team that you guys would be interested in having them available.
    ghoulz66 said:


    Will we have to wait till they're all expended before we can recast it?

    The easy first implementation was this, but it doesn't feel great, so I'm looking to see what I can do.
    TY @amenar, to me, having those tools to more accurately test stuff will be a bigger improvement than all of the balance changes so far :)
  • lihin23nihillihin23nihil Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    amenar said:


    Also, someone asked about Curse Bite generating AP - it does, and it uses the same formula as the other Encounter powers.

    That was me, thanks for the response :)
    Can we increase the amount it gives then please?

    Do we have any insight into what that formula is? From some quick testing there is a large variance of AP* generated between powers, roughly speaking I can break them down into a few categories (I didn't have a couple of encounters specced so not all are listed):

    Low AP Gain (we'll use this as a base unit X)
    ==========
    Soul Scorch (since this can be spammed a low AP gain makes sense)
    Curse Bite
    Wraith's Shadow


    Mid AP Gain (c. 2X)
    ========
    BotVA
    Fiery Bolt
    Vampiric Embrace
    Killing Flames
    Hadar's Grasp


    High AP Gain (c. 3X)
    ==========
    Dreadtheft
    Warlock's Bargain
    Harrow Storm



    For reference At-Wills generate about X/2 per cast.

    So it seems that either the formula for AP is complex and takes a lot of variables into account per power, CD, Damage, Utility etc - in which case these variables may need updating? or the formula is simple and not all powers are implementing it the same way.


    *Since there is no easy way to accurately measure base AP given per power and it's quite build dependent anyway, trying to give actual figures doesn't seem useful.

  • dynethordynethor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 13 Arc User
    @Amenar: you are doing an incredible job! Thank you very much!
  • damoc#3687 damoc Member Posts: 112 Arc User
    edited July 2016
    any thought about linking Vampiric embrace's damage to the warlock HP similar to the tenebrous enchant?
    preferably to the max HP but could be a multiplication effect either on the sw's missing hp or the %HP diference with the target:

    the spell would have a base damage probably a small %age of Sw's max health to ease the calculus (let's say 6.5% at rank 1+1.5% per rank)
    the more the sw is damaged the greater the damage increase
    the healthier the target the greater the damage increase

    which means;
    SW healthy, target near death -> no damage increase
    SW and target in the same range of health (both full or both half-full or both near-death) -> moderate damage increase (let's say +100% meaning the power deals 13% of max Hp at rank 1 and 28% at rank 4)
    SW near-death and target full health -> huge damage increase (let's say +200% resulting in a hit for 19.5% of sw max hp at rank 1 and 42% at rank 4)

    if we deduce heals and temp hp with the current values of 75% and 150% it gives:

    5% heal - 10% temp hp with no damage increase at rank 1 ( 10.5%-21% at rank 4)
    10% heal - 20% temp hp with moderate damage increase at rank 1(21%-42% at rank 4)
    15% heal - 30% temp hp with huge damage increase at rank 1(31.5% - 63% at rank 4)

    This would have a build-in scalability along the character progression, still being useful in later content.
  • gt8600gt8600 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 8 Arc User
    edited July 2016

    Feedback: TT/TC/AoE Damage

    Ok, I understand, TT is not coming back.
    But now we have the problem of not doing efficient AoE damage.

    TT allowed us to shape ours AoEs in a big circle,or long rectangle. And control the intensity and rhythm of the DPS,depending on the situation (need a fast burst? Feed it with FB. Need constant,stable damage? Feed it with BoVa.Or go burst,sustained,burst) It was a "crutch",but also a tool to transmutate encounters in a very fun,versatile and effective way. With it,my warlock could adapt and be useful in every PVE situation in the game.

    You removed TT, the crutch is gone,but the problems still there, because many of our encounters are still weak or clunky,and risky, in their design and mechanics.

    Also,the splash damage of TC is too weak,it only tickles the mobs around the primary target. Could you please increase it by a noticeable amount? So we can compete with a wizard casting oppressive force on a pack of frozen mobs ,or a gwf's powerful swings and their many amazing self buffs?

    TC is very slow to cast,it locks you in place,you still can force a walk forward ,but it looks like your toon is stumbling on an invisible rock.

    Sws need a way to do good AoE damage. Brood is too weak,Flames duration and radius are too small,TC splash damage is just a tickle. Visually, Gates looks amazing,but it hits like a pillow.


  • jobsalotofworkjobsalotofwork Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 189 Arc User
    <Font color=blue>
    SW as a Leader

    The class is sorely lacking in leader traits I think a change too all the personal options on powers and features is necessary too make this side of the class relevant. Have Warlocks curse increase all damage against the target , the defensive class feature affect all out going damage on WC targets, vampiric embrace becomes an aoe heal, PoP is always a group buff, etc. This would help the class be less one dimensional and remove the need for it to be the top dps since it's lacking in all other roles.

    </Font>
  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,184 Arc User
    amenar said:

    Howdy all

    Hey @amenar I wonder if even temporally replace Hellbringers Hellish rebuke with Cw's master of flame: Scorching Burst ability. And what kind impact would cause such changes.. Even without Smolder. mechanic implemantation.
    That would make AoE at will with DoT effect..
    ========================================================================
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    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
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  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    @amenar
    Please fix Dreadtheft, it only stacks up to 3 and looses stacks even activated in combat, it was a bred and butter encouter in PVP stacking on single target and the way it works atm it is no real option any more

    Please rethink the option to let soulsparks decrease slower out oft combat like determination, lets say 15 seconds and gone from 30 sparks

    Please do rethink about a real dodge like i mentioned before

    No matter what we end up, you do great, thanks
  • jobsalotofworkjobsalotofwork Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 189 Arc User
    I would argue that CW and other classes always has the roles option it's more about magnitude. The amount varies based on spec/slotted encounters, and cw have an option to add leadership abilities via renegade or oppressor, but they don't lack in either role out of the box.

    The SW has no leadership abilities out of the box near as I can tell.

    Roles are outdated but what happens to a class when they have one role and they're not the best in it.
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  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    macjae said:

    Please fix Dreadtheft, it only stacks up to 3 and looses stacks even activated in combat, it was a bred and butter encouter in PVP stacking on single target and the way it works atm it is no real option any more

    Maybe they should remove the stacks mechanic from Dreadtheft entirely and simply have it apply a single buff/debuff, that's equal to about 3 stacks' worth currently. That way, it would be better in single-target encounters and PvP, and more consistent in PvE.

    Maybe the DR buff should also apply for a set amount of time -- the full time the power would normally fire -- even if interrupted. That way, it's useful as a defensive mechanic even if it gets interrupted by a control effect.
    Sounds like a good compromise, since atm it´s useless and the way it was it would provide too much defense stats at once.
    On PTR even without 8000 Lifesteal from SH Boon my templock can pull 15 mobs and won´t go down, using the reworked encounter Bova and Spheres+DT together with that shiftmechanic... pretty tanky and hard to destroy.
    Only problem is the lack of aoe/damage compared to my 2.8 GWF, maybe an "at will" with bigger aoe would help to get there as mentioned above.
    But I have to admit, that all this testing will not reflect the performance of a medium geared warlock without 3xrank12 Bondings and rank12 brutals inside an epic companion. To some degree it´s not representable for an average warlock.
    Maybe I will slot an augment next time.
  • d4rkh0rs3d4rkh0rs3 Member Posts: 382 Arc User
    edited July 2016
    Buffing Vampiric Embrace's damage is not the way to go IMO. It will continue to be one of the least used encounters for any build, regardless of circumstance. In addition, it quite literally does *nothing* in PvP after damage mitigation and healing depression are factored in.

    Other single target encounters dish out more healing to the group (Temptation) while offering significantly increased DPS and utility, such as Warlock's Bargain. Combinations of Soul Scorch, Hadar's Grasp, Warlock's Bargain, and Killing Flames will be slotted long before Vampiric Embrace.

    The best thing for Vampiric Embrace is a super short cooldown (along the lines of CW's Disentegrate) so it may potentially be used by Templocks as a primary spike heal encounter. Vampiric Embrace can deal damage, that's fine, but the heal amount should not be based on the damage value.

    Speccing into Soul Bonding and casting Vampiric Embrace on cursed targets should also grant nearby allies temporary hitpoints. <- That would be sweet and a practical use for the encounter.

    Edit: you can also consider giving Vampiric Embrace the benefit of debuffing a target, so it may see further use in group settings.
  • d4rkh0rs3d4rkh0rs3 Member Posts: 382 Arc User
    edited July 2016
    @treesclimber regarding infernal spheres fire rate if used as shield, I was thinking the fire rate could remain untouched (0.5s). *However,* each sphere would not fire until x% of your HP (or x% of your weapon damage) in damage is taken.

    Therefore, if you are getting smacked up quite quickly by one or more enemies, two spheres would release per second. Otherwise, if you're just getting tickled by an enemy who deals 50 damage to you, a sphere would not necessarily shoot out at them.

    One thing I am curious about is how the spheres will shoot at a HR Archer in PvP for example. What if the HR Archer is 50ft away? Maybe in these cases you keep the sphere (along with the +DR%) to be fair.

    Of course you could fire off all spheres simultaneously by using the encounter. The tradeoff would be losing DR but gaining whatever heal you receive from the spheres.
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  • schietindebuxschietindebux Member Posts: 4,292 Arc User
    edited July 2016
    d4rkh0rs3 said:

    Buffing Vampiric Embrace's damage is not the way to go IMO. It will continue to be one of the least used encounters for any build, regardless of circumstance. In addition, it quite literally does *nothing* in PvP after damage mitigation and healing depression are factored in.



    Other single target encounters dish out more healing to the group (Temptation) while offering significantly increased DPS and utility, such as Warlock's Bargain. Combinations of Soul Scorch, Hadar's Grasp, Warlock's Bargain, and Killing Flames will be slotted long before Vampiric Embrace.



    The best thing for Vampiric Embrace is a super short cooldown (along the lines of CW's Disentegrate) so it may potentially be used by Templocks as a primary spike heal encounter. Vampiric Embrace can deal damage, that's fine, but the heal amount should not be based on the damage value.



    Speccing into Soul Bonding and casting Vampiric Embrace on cursed targets should also grant nearby allies temporary hitpoints. <- That would be sweet and a practical use for the encounter.



    Edit: you can also consider giving Vampiric Embrace the benefit of debuffing a target, so it may see further use in group settings.

    maybe vampiric embrance may play a role in temtation tree, if that HP buff would be relevant/give a fix ammount of HP (also to prevent from being abused) and if that HP buff would apply to the group, maybe like 30% HP+heal otherwise it´s a wasted slot I think, since one Soul Scorch heals better and deals damage on top.
    Vampiric embrance doesn´t seem to work with lesser curse, WB or TT, only appies HP buff by cruseconsume from WC
    Post edited by schietindebux on
  • ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    Vamp Embrace needs reworked. Flat damage isn't going to be useful at all.

    If a temptation feat enhanced it and turned it into a HoT, might be a different story.
  • beckylunaticbeckylunatic Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 14,231 Arc User
    Likewise, the fixed puppet does not do impressive damage at all, and a warlock that doesn't rely on bugs for damage really does have to work for it.
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  • treesclimbertreesclimber Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,161 Arc User
    edited July 2016


    maybe vampiric embrance may play a role in temtation tree, if that HP buff would be relevant/give a fix ammount of HP (also to prevent from being abused) and if that HP buff would apply to the group, maybe like 30% HP+heal otherwise it´s a wasted slot I think, since one Soul Scorch heals better and deals damage on top.
    Vampiric embrance doesn´t seem to work with lesser curse, WB or TT, only appies HP buff by cruseconsume from WC

    It's more about the speed of the cast, there are few encounter powers that will heal as fast has vampiric embrace and it doesnt need soulsparks and has a short cooldown, so it's a life saver no matter what, there were some situations i used it before this date, with this change it will be very decent. The only thing i would change is the temp HP granted be turned to shield or something of that kind so all the mitigations apply like normal HP and the HP be a % of player HP.


  • dannydark007#2612 dannydark007 Member Posts: 19 Arc User
    amenar said:

    d4rkh0rs3 said:

    and/or you may lose spheres if damaged, similar to CW shield.

    Do you guys have a camera in here? This is what I was working on. The patch note will be:
    • Scourge Warlock: Infernal Spheres: No longer attacks enemies that get near you. Instead, sends a sphere out to targets that attack you.
    Awsome
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  • treesclimbertreesclimber Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,161 Arc User
    d4rkh0rs3 said:

    @treesclimber regarding infernal spheres fire rate if used as shield, I was thinking the fire rate could remain untouched (0.5s). *However,* each sphere would not fire until x% of your HP (or x% of your weapon damage) in damage is taken.



    Therefore, if you are getting smacked up quite quickly by one or more enemies, two spheres would release per second. Otherwise, if you're just getting tickled by an enemy who deals 50 damage to you, a sphere would not necessarily shoot out at them.



    One thing I am curious about is how the spheres will shoot at a HR Archer in PvP for example. What if the HR Archer is 50ft away? Maybe in these cases you keep the sphere (along with the +DR%) to be fair.



    Of course you could fire off all spheres simultaneously by using the encounter. The tradeoff would be losing DR but gaining whatever heal you receive from the spheres.

    I disagree, take for example twin scorpions in elol, so i have to wait till they deal that % of damage to me so the charges blast off? They claw me and i'm dead. And lostmauth , i cast them to protect me from the eyes ray, he launches a fire wave and im knocked by a fire ball, 2 spheres gone, eyes hit me, im dead, regarding the charges, why not grant us full control of them? pres eeee how long did it took to you? Well there is only a thing to change, allow them to cast regardless of us being controled or not like cleansling touch from OP's.


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  • hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,184 Arc User



    I disagree, take for example twin scorpions in elol, so i have to wait till they deal that % of damage to me so the charges blast off? They claw me and i'm dead. And lostmauth , i cast them to protect me from the eyes ray, he launches a fire wave and im knocked by a fire ball, 2 spheres gone, eyes hit me, im dead, regarding the charges, why not grant us full control of them? pres eeee how long did it took to you? Well there is only a thing to change, allow them to cast regardless of us being controled or not like cleansling touch from OP's.

    100% agree with @treesclimber. In boss fight it would not anything good, DR sounds ok, but then we give up offensive IS abilities. Sure they would hit back to attacker, if u survive that hit. And even if SW survive 1 sphere = trolling not dmg.
    Even all spheres one by one is more like trolling than threat in pvp, in pve totally worthless. If SW would have 4 slots as CW then maybe I would use. SW have 3 so give up 30% possible dmg output. Hmm., I rather moderate DR via gear set than give up via encounter...
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
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