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Official Feedback Thread: Scourge Warlock changes

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    ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    edited July 2016
    d4rkh0rs3 said:

    @zeusom GFs also rely on specific encounters to help them crawl through PvE content a bit faster. Some of these encounters possibly work beyond what is intended for PvP. Either way, there is a specific GF class balance thread to discuss this topic in that you may find useful.

    Uhhh... ET for an AoE, that's about it though it's kinda overkill now.... I can actually mix n' match other powers as I please. The same can't be said for the SW.... Gotta freakin slot a truck full of mediocre AoEs to mow down the mobs fast enough.
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    zeusomzeusom Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 810 Arc User
    edited July 2016
    @amenar @d4rkh0rs3

    Yes I tested extensively on preview and a PvP GF can still stun and burstkill with a single baffling damage rotation :[ None of the SW changes really help with this in practice (with skilled players). You just have to try to never ever let them catch you which is not practical.

    What about special tactics? Forgehammer of Gond halves damage for 5 seconds but it locks up. Oghmas Token which is supposed free anyone from anything locks up with many GF skills also. That is why I am saying one solution is to tweak these artifcts so not just SW but everyone can have some answer to these insane GF burst combos.. at least when off cooldown.

    Sopi (aka Haxbox) SW [Synergy]
    Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack

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    d4rkh0rs3d4rkh0rs3 Member Posts: 382 Arc User
    I think @theio666 is correct with his analysis on how Hadar's Grasp currently buffs relative to armor penetration: if you have equal or greater resistance ignored than your target's armor penetration resistance, Hadar's Grasp provided a stacking 3% buff on Curse Consume + Crit hit. The Curse Consume equates to 11 damage ticks multiplied by 3% = 33%. This buff is additive with the damage multiplier from Tyrannical Threat. Prior to the lostmauth set fix, the Hadar's Grasp damage multiplier was the main reason I focused on usong Soul Scorch while Hadar's Grasp was ticking / shortly after it was done ticking.

    @zeusom @ghoulz66 Every class struggles with how "overpowered" GFs are in PvP, as @macjae stated. Therefore, the focus should be directed towards GF encounters in PvP rather than augmenting each other individual class to handle it. An issue I pointed out with GFs is it is difficult to balance PvE encounters with PvP gameplay. If you nerf GF encounters too hard to compensate for PvP, it will be miserable for GFs to complete campaigns and daily quests. There's a fine balance, that's all. :)
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    ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    Ehhh even as soulbinder my performance against HEs in IWD isn't terribly great. Only slightly faster than my GF and I think it might be slower than archery I'm messing with on my HR, though my HR has way less survivability, and granted that everything behaves themselves and stands in my AoEs. GWF, just murders em, doesn't run, doesn't blink, just murders, no brain cell activity needed.
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    d4rkh0rs3d4rkh0rs3 Member Posts: 382 Arc User
    @ghoulz66 Icewind Dale / Dwarven Valley Heroic Encounters are prime examples of why the TT nerf needs to be as minimal as possible. SWs do such horrid solo damage without TT compared to other classes that it's quite sad. We also have negligible CC options against these mobs compared to TR, HR, and CW.

    Does anybody want to time how long it will take a SW to solo clear IWD HEs without TT on preview compared to other classes?

    I swear sometimes that my Righteous DC with Daunting Light can push out better solo damage against certain mobs, haha. ;)
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    ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    edited July 2016
    d4rkh0rs3 said:

    @ghoulz66 Icewind Dale / Dwarven Valley Heroic Encounters are prime examples of why the TT nerf needs to be as minimal as possible. SWs do such horrid solo damage without TT compared to other classes that it's quite sad. We also have negligible CC options against these mobs compared to TR, HR, and CW.



    Does anybody want to time how long it will take a SW to solo clear IWD HEs without TT on preview compared to other classes?



    I swear sometimes that my Righteous DC with Daunting Light can push out better solo damage against certain mobs, haha. ;)

    Please, don't even mention TT!! My HR, GF, and GWF didn't need to spam dailies and they still made me look pathetic! SW shouldn't need to be so gimped in depending on dailies so badly.
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    zeusomzeusom Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 810 Arc User
    edited July 2016
    @scathias Having a prone on a class that typically takes 3 to infinite rotations to clear a player (harrowstorm) versus prone skills on a GF that can clear most any class with a single rotation are two different things.

    Another alternative for SW extreme vulnerability while stunned is that the new DR/deflect sources persist for a few seconds during stun/prone as macjae suggested.
    Sopi (aka Haxbox) SW [Synergy]
    Sopi SW Youtube channel pvp brickabrack

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    scathiasscathias Member Posts: 1,174 Arc User
    the prone on bull charge didn't use to matter too much either until it did suddenly. I completely understand that SW can't make good use of the prone right now, especially since it is a bit cumbersome to use. I am just looking to standardize prones across all classes and not leave something that could well become a problem if SW ends up at the top of the food chain
    Guild - The Imaginary Friends
    We are searching for slave labor, will pay with food from our farm!
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    fastrean3fastrean3 Member Posts: 281 Arc User
    poopoomcmuffns, yes, u r correct and most other player knew it :p
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    crystal892fcrystal892f Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 385 Arc User
    edited July 2016
    My feedback. I agree with most of what's pointed out, but want to stress some important points.

    Vampiric embrace: make it deal damage equal to 15/20/25/30% of your max hp, not influenced by power. it will mean a heal for 11.25/15/18.75/22.5% of your max HP and potentially 22,5/30/37.5/45% temp HP.

    I love this idea.
    d4rkh0rs3 said:

    Please evaluate TT only being cast on a single target but being able to recast if said target dies within TT duration.

    I guess most people wouldn't mind the change back to "WC becomes TC", if you can mark at least another target again, when your first target died. Limiting the number of markable targets to 1 during TC shouldn't be too hard to implement.

    Creeping Death should do piercing damage (based off of the initial damage after mitigation) for the damage bonus to be a true 60% increase, and consistent across all targets.

    Yes please
    etelgrin said:

    macjae said:



    Suggestion: Warlock's Curse should debuff incoming and outgoing healing on targets by 20-50%.

    This would serve several purposes: It would give warlocks a unique effect for their curse (which is presently a simple damage buff) that fits their theme, it would serve to alleviate issues SWs have with their dots being outhealed, particularly against high-geared PvP targets with excessive healing from insignias and drowned weapon sets, and it would do so without boosting their base damage by too much.

    This is really good sugestion, 20% isn't much worth it, I noticed from Shadowtouched but 50%-75% would actually be great asset with all these heals around.
    Great idea
    macjae said:

    Will this immunity also extend to piercing damage, like a TR's Shocking Execution? That is the really big issue for SWs in PvP, as there is presently nothing that can be done to avoid that damage, and it can potentially be a one-shot fatality.

    That's more a problem with Shocking Execution, than the greatly improved Shadow Slip (thanks for the change!). Piercing damage of such a magnitude as it's possible with Shox shouldn't exist at all (and has been pointed out literally years ago).
    On that note I wanna link this evaluation. There is too much healing going on. The only way to kill somebody at that level is ridiculous single target damage (see GF), or piercing damage (TRs Shox). But high amounts of piercing damage can't be the answer to too much healing. The source, the healing itself, has to be adjusted.
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    theio666theio666 Member Posts: 36 Arc User
    @crystal892f @macjae

    Do you understand, what it will lower your damage? For example, in any good party you usually have got 200% effectivness? So if skill does 100 base dmg. it will do 100*(1+200%)=300 dmg. After Creeping Death starts, and if it will be "piercing damage", i will deal 300*0.6=180 dmg. But if it will be normal damage, it will deal (300*0.6)*(1+200%)=540. I understand, that you want pvp damage, but after it SW will lose too much damage in pve.
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    hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,176 Arc User
    edited July 2016
    theio666 said:

    @crystal892f @macjae

    Do you understand, what it will lower your damage? For example, in any good party you usually have got 200% effectivness? So if skill does 100 base dmg. it will do 100*(1+200%)=300 dmg. After Creeping Death starts, and if it will be "piercing damage", i will deal 300*0.6=180 dmg. But if it will be normal damage, it will deal (300*0.6)*(1+200%)=540. I understand, that you want pvp damage, but after it SW will lose too much damage in pve.

    I still do wish that devs replace creeping death with other feat, or new power mechanic which would give overall power boost, rather than keeping DoT. That would overall boost capabilities in pvp and pve.

    If we stay with Current Creeping death, well it will be same as before, players stick only to DoT encounters and all fight focused around building stacks as much they can, rather than trying use other encounters combinations.
    There are warlocks who want more splah/blast power, but they will not give enough stacks, so its not best option..


    As for piercing power, i think such boosting power can be done through class features..
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
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    theio666theio666 Member Posts: 36 Arc User

    theio666 said:

    @crystal892f @macjae

    Do you understand, what it will lower your damage? For example, in any good party you usually have got 200% effectivness? So if skill does 100 base dmg. it will do 100*(1+200%)=300 dmg. After Creeping Death starts, and if it will be "piercing damage", i will deal 300*0.6=180 dmg. But if it will be normal damage, it will deal (300*0.6)*(1+200%)=540. I understand, that you want pvp damage, but after it SW will lose too much damage in pve.

    I still do wish that devs replace creeping death with other feat, or new power mechanic which would give overall power boost, rather than keeping DoT. That would overall boost capabilities in pvp and pve.

    If we stay with Current Creeping death, well it will be same as before, players stick only to DoT encounters and all fight focused around building stacks as much they can, rather than trying use other encounters combinations.
    There are warlocks who want more splah/blast power, but they will not give enough stacks, so its not best option..


    As for piercing power, i think such boosting power can be done through class features..
    i don't understand, why everybody "building stacks as much they can"? creeping death just does 60% of damage, no matters, with 10 dot skill or 1 dot skill. Just all damage from skill * 0.6, there is no progression from stacks. If we stay with current Creeping death(like on test), SW can beat GWF in some cases, but if Creeping death will be piercing damage...The best solution is to delete SW and leave game)
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    damoc#3687 damoc Member Posts: 112 Arc User
    edited July 2016
    If Lesser curse wasn't so short (4 ticks) we could try to save curse bite by evolving it into the encounter with no target cap.

    It would work like this:
    when you cast curse bite, every foe in the radius (we may go with a reduced radius to 50' since in effect we aggro everything in the zone) get:
    if they don't have a curse on them then lesser curse get applied to them.
    If they have any curse, then curse bite deals its stated damage and remove removable curses, dealing extra damage equals to the number of ticks remaining for a lesser curse and a full lesser curse damage for any other curse- biggest of them all applies in case of multi-cursed target

    you tell me:'it's dumb, it won't be any better'

    And I answer 'yes, with only these stipulations itt's not worth it' but what I have in mind is that rank 3 and 4 of curse bite would have base cool down very shorts. in fact it would mean a base cool down allowing for a second curse bite being recast with 1 tick left of the applied curse bite at rank 3 and 2 ticks left at rank 4.

    It is only envisionable if lesser curs as it duration increased to around 6 secs and the base CD for curse bite hangs at 7.5s at rank 1.

    Curse bite could also criticaly strike.

    Before all consideration, it would generate AP since we gain AP by casting spells. A short repeating encounter like this would be a great advantage (I'm looking at you with envy Disintegrate)

    with all these considerations, it would allow to work with all-consuming curse, parting blasphemy, infernal wrath, creeping death, to increase it effectiveness.

    if they work with lesser curse, simply putting a lesser curse on all foe could:
    for syphonning curse it could set up a lot of sacrificial victims for other to heal, (that could be usefull)
    for Daughter promise it could set off a killing spree on a pack of dying mobs (that's cute)
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    lihin23nihillihin23nihil Member Posts: 229 Arc User

    If Lesser curse wasn't so short (4 ticks) we could try to save curse bite by evolving it into the encounter with no target cap.

    This would be a start, lengthen duration of Lesser Curse (interaction on players may have to be different ofc) and remove the target cap.
    Curse Bite would still need some of the following to make it useful imo:
    Increased Damage
    Reduced Cast Time
    Reduced Cooldown
    Ability to cast during Dreadtheft channel
    Increased AP gain - it's practically negligible right now.

    I don't think CB should apply a curse though, there needs to be some thought required to maximising a rotation - and building synergies with other powers/feats seems like a good thing. The design suggests there should be a strong synergy between Accursed Souls, Dreadtheft, All-Consuming Curse and other Lesser Curse proccing feats.

    TBH I feel that Curse Bite should be baked into the core curse mechanic in someway - "Hold TAB for x time to consume all active curses dealing y damage, z cooldown"

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    hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,176 Arc User
    edited July 2016

    If Lesser curse wasn't so short (4 ticks) we could try to save curse bite by evolving it into the encounter with no target cap.

    It would work like this:
    when you cast curse bite, every foe in the radius (we may go with a reduced radius to 50' since in effect we aggro everything in the zone) get:
    if they don't have a curse on them then lesser curse get applied to them.
    If they have any curse, then curse bite deals its stated damage and remove removable curses, dealing extra damage equals to the number of ticks remaining for a lesser curse and a full lesser curse damage for any other curse- biggest of them all applies in case of multi-cursed target

    you tell me:'it's dumb, it won't be any better'

    And I answer 'yes, with only these stipulations itt's not worth it' but what I have in mind is that rank 3 and 4 of curse bite would have base cool down very shorts. in fact it would mean a base cool down allowing for a second curse bite being recast with 1 tick left of the applied curse bite at rank 3 and 2 ticks left at rank 4.

    It is only envisionable if lesser curs as it duration increased to around 6 secs and the base CD for curse bite hangs at 7.5s at rank 1.

    Curse bite could also criticaly strike.

    Before all consideration, it would generate AP since we gain AP by casting spells. A short repeating encounter like this would be a great advantage (I'm looking at you with envy Disintegrate)

    with all these considerations, it would allow to work with all-consuming curse, parting blasphemy, infernal wrath, creeping death, to increase it effectiveness.

    if they work with lesser curse, simply putting a lesser curse on all foe could:
    for syphonning curse it could set up a lot of sacrificial victims for other to heal, (that could be usefull)
    for Daughter promise it could set off a killing spree on a pack of dying mobs (that's cute)

    =====================
    Suggestion: Curse bite 
    User curse targets, then hit Curse bite, which cause aoe dmg on every cursed/lesser curse/TC effected targets.. 
    
    Cursed targets takes full dmg while monsters around curse bite affected receive 35% damage in rage to up 5'. 
    I can be considered as Fiery Bolt for cursed targets only.. Plus u don't have aim to enemies because this encounter work only for cursed/marked ones. 
    Good side, high aoe dmg, even for single target good, 
    Downside if u don't have cursed target u can't use it.. 
    However number of damage should be calculated in checked in action, and make sure do not make this encounter overpowered.. 
    =======================
    My suggestion where is like instant fiery bolt hit to cursed targets, with little bit smaller aoe, but over all using 3 or more cursed targets and use this encounter would be extreme aoe hitter. Probably even Tyrannical Threat would look like punny.


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    theio666 said:

    By beat gwf I meant to make more damage in pve...

    Sounds like situation, non warlock player try advice warlock player how to use this class..
    I like jokes, but be mind its not right place..

    So overall u have no clues, how beat GWF in pve matters in first place, and how important is Creeping death and that more its stacks = more dmg u do.
    If lets say 1 stack does 100 dmg, then think, 10 stacks what kind dmg does,, now with normal Curse + DT encounter combo goes beyond 30 stacks for sure. Now why don't use 3 encounters with DoT? warlock bargain + Hadar grasp + DT = more stacks. Now I don't know is OK, but greater red dragon glyphs have also DoT effect so count them too. SO over all I usually put stacks above 70 stacks. . And by that I do more dmg to strong monsters than any fire encounters combination.

    Now since some(extra) nerf in preview, warlock stack less creeping death than in live server. So over all dmg decrease, but still creeping death is main power for furry tree.

    And as for fun I can tell u m how SW can beat GWF in term of dps, which is,
    1) monsters are complete trashes and die from single fiery bolt strike, and GWF didn't get in time near them land any single hit,
    2) boss like orcus and GWF is either undergeared, or without any sings of brain power(brainless mouse smasher), or both which also u can see during epic dungeons.. So gwf die a lot, and SW hit from range and keep building Creeping Death stacks,.

    Over all warlock all power show up only against strong monster with high HP pool. So curse mechanic mechanic and all furry tree powers (which are build around curse) can be utilize.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
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    theio666theio666 Member Posts: 36 Arc User

    An SW can only beat GWF using bugged builds. A Fury with no DC or GF in the party is pretty lame in damage without the Fabled set.

    In previos post: some cases = debuff DC in party, need more tests, but maybe there is some cool interaction with cr. death and debuffs.
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    hadestemplar#9918 hadestemplar Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,176 Arc User
    Bug; Daily power : Tyrannical Curse
    When player cast TC on target, and by accident cast on top usual/normal curse, and use encounter with curse consume mechanic, it remove both, normal and Tyrannical curse

    Suggestion; Daily power : Tyrannical Curse
    Add ability recast this daily power once monster affected by Tyrannical curse dies, by click same daily power once once again and recast daily power on new target.
    ========================================================================
    “The masses have never thirsted after truth. Whoever can supply them with illusions is easily their master; whoever attempts to destroy their illusions is always their victim.
    Gustave Le Bon.

    ==================================================
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    lihin23nihillihin23nihil Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    Bug: Essence Defiler - Damage Tool-tip incorrect
    For me Essence Defiler's tool-tip reports 182-182 Physical Damage, yet log parses show it to be in roughly the same range as Eldritch Blast which reports as 1461-1751 damage.

    Also, why is it Physical damage?
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    lihin23nihillihin23nihil Member Posts: 229 Arc User
    edited July 2016
    Bug: Accursed Souls - Not applying Lesser Curse consistently
    Sometimes the curse activates then disappears immediately, sometimes it doesn't get applied at all. The same behaviour is observable whether you ani-cancel or not.

    Should the curse be applied at the beginning or end of the cast? To be usable currently Acc. Souls needs to be ani-cancelled immediately after casting, but if Curse applies at end this could be an issue, equally if curse applies at start and you let the entire animation play out the curse will expire almost immediately.

    Suggestion: Apply curse at start of cast, reset curse duration at end of animation - increase duration of lesser curse...


    Feedback: Accursed Souls
    This power feels like it should be central to a Templock as it is 1 of the only Healing powers available. However, the heal is never shared with the party, the damage is lacklustre, target cap low and animation far too long to make it truly useful.
    Not sure why it summons a soul puppet either, the puppet is too weak to help either Fury or Templock, and Damnation has plenty of other ways to summon a puppet anyway.

    All of this contributes to making it a clumsy power to use - if you open with it to gain the puppet to manage aggro you waste the heal and mid fight the puppet is of reduced value. If it's intended to be a flexible "utility" power it's opportunity cost (100% AP) feels way too high.

    Suggestions:
    Raise target cap (if not for damage then for cursing at least)
    Reduce cast time
    Increase Damage
    Increase Heal
    Soul Bonding to share the heal as per Vampiric Embrace
    Reduce AP Cost to 50%??
    Invulnerability during cast???
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    fernuufernuu Member Posts: 453 Arc User
    BUG: Borrowed Time offhand class feature
    Does not increase deflection chance while building sparks.
    https://youtube.com/c/FernuStormborn

    Mod 10:
    [Combat (Self)] Critical Hit! Your Killing Flames deals 16636893 (1009292) Fire Damage to Ethraniev Marrowslake.

    Mod 9:
    [Combat (Self)] Your Murderous Flames deals 376274433 (18876929) Fire Damage to Red Tiamat Head.
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    rayrdanrayrdan Member Posts: 5,410 Arc User
    i fear sprint management will allow perma immunity to damage. Does that feature have a cooldown at least?
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    ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    rayrdan said:

    i fear sprint management will allow perma immunity to damage. Does that feature have a cooldown at least?

    Did they change the temptation feat along with this change?
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    d4rkh0rs3d4rkh0rs3 Member Posts: 382 Arc User
    @rayrdan I was playing around with Shadow Slip on xbox yesterday. We really want to focus on experiences from the PC preview server, but I doubt there is significant difference here:

    SWs can repeatedly burst in and out of Shadow Slip with relatively minimal stamina loss compared to other classes. This effect is amplified if the SW is fully feated into Eldritch Momentum, meaning the SW gains 5% stamina each time they take damage. While the SW cannot attack during Shadow Slip, it can self-heal with Borrowed Time and mount insignias. This may lead to a perma-cc immunity and or perma damage immunity exploit (all while self healing) from consecutive burst Shadow Slips. Way too OP and would be nerfed as soon as the complaints come thundering in.

    To fairly implement Shadow Slip +% DR, an equivalent cooldown between consecutive Shadow Slip activations may need to be integreated, such as seen with other classes (TR, CW, HR, DC). Also, an equivalent impenetrable 1 second immunity frame should be granted to Shadow Slip, as an immunity frame is better than 100% DR. (Certain game features completely ignore damage resistance, rendering it useless.)

    To be honest and fair, after the 1 second immunity frame, Shadow Slip's per second % DR loss should be more severe:

    0 to 1 second = Immunity frame
    1 second to 2 seconds = +50% DR
    2 seconds to 3 seconds = +25% DR
    3+ seconds = +zero% DR

    I could even argue that SWs should not get ANY +% DR from Shadow Slip IF an equivalent immunity frame is granted--I would actually prefer this change.

    Sorry, fellow SWs. Trying to be fair and realistic here.
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    ghoulz66ghoulz66 Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 3,748 Arc User
    edited July 2016
    Not that it can help a whole lot other than in pvp. You gotta deal damage sometime and expose yourself.

    Sounds like a nightmare in pvp. Get Dark Revelry, Gladiator's Guile, Shadow Walk, OH bonus, Ambush ring. Even if he's open you won't be hurting him.
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