Update on the Trade Bar Store

zebular · February 2016

vinceent1 said:
ok Zeb, before, at leadership AD times, you make a lot of characters. Could you make a lot of characters now? honestly

is it useable way for now?

I've actually made 5 new characters since the changes and leveled one character I hadn't gotten around to prior, she's at 58 now (paladin). As soon as I get done leveling my warlock (she's in her mid-60's) and the new paladin, I'm going to either begin leveling one of the new 5 or enjoy Maze Engine on of my main two characters, if Maze Engine comes out before then. Also, no, I don't have 50 characters. I think I am at 38 characters?

As for the bottleneck being related to refining enchants and artifacts. Meh... perfect and trans enchants or legendary/mythic artifacts are not needed. It's been said time and time again that the devs do not make content with people who have the best gear in the game in mind. They make content that can be completed by anyone who plays the game without them feeling forced to spend money to advance. I still don't have any Mythic artifacts and only one Legendary among all my characters. I also do not have any Perfect or Trans enchantments, just a few Greaters. I am doing fine without all of that supposed "BiS" stuff.

In my opinion, people put too much weight on some perceived notion that you have to have Perfects, Trans, or Mythic refined stuff. You do not. That stuff is there for those who wish to seek it out, they're not there as any sort of game requirement one has to achieve.

vinceent1 · February 2016

but the case is - we are not leadeship ad slaves anymore, but we are suppose to be invoking slaves? its not any better. i hope they find coal wards solution for next module

eldeskal · February 2016

zebular said:
It's been said time and time again that the devs do not make content with people who have the best gear in the game in mind. [...] people put too much weight on some perceived notion that you have to have Perfects, Trans, or Mythic refined stuff. [...] That stuff is there for those who wish to seek it out, they're not there as any sort of game requirement one has to achieve.

Hmm. This is absolutely true (says a nerfed CW with r9s, g.vorp, lesser barkshield---though I did spend all the AD I made for two mods on stacks of r5s to get mythic artifacts -- I've only ever had 3 or 4 coal wards, and two of those came from invoking.) I think this is a pretty important counterpoint when trying to understand the dev's intent with the economy.

There seem to be three types of people who pay:
1. those who want to support a game they like (VIP)
2. those who want specific mounts/fashion/etc. to enhance roleplaying/ambiance. (The various cash markets)
3. those who want an advantage (BiS PVP; coalescent wards and superior marks)

So as described, devs tanked the revenue generated by type 3, by providing those items through the interface for type 1. That is, people realized the cheap coals could make AD quick, by selling them to the BiS crowd, so the BiS crowd stopped spending. Now, everyone who bought VIP intending to make/save AD via this method is livid. Those who aligned well with the three intended pay-routes are still reasonably content.

* edit reworded a statement that might have implied I spent real money for my mythic artifacts

[Edit 2: For clarity, you're probably not going to get 3xGold in eDemo without the entire team having good gear --- that's gonna be a 3k+ affair---but in that vein, all the same rewards drop for 'silver'...just not as frequently]

vinceent1 · February 2016

zebular said:

vinceent1 said:
ok Zeb, before, at leadership AD times, you make a lot of characters. Could you make a lot of characters now? honestly

is it useable way for now?
I've actually made 5 new characters since the changes and leveled one character I hadn't gotten around to prior, she's at 58 now (paladin). As soon as I get done leveling my warlock (she's in her mid-60's) and the new paladin, I'm going to either begin leveling one of the new 5 or enjoy Maze Engine on of my main two characters, if Maze Engine comes out before then. Also, no, I don't have 50 characters. I think I am at 38 characters?

As for the bottleneck being related to refining enchants and artifacts. Meh... perfect and trans enchants or legendary/mythic artifacts are not needed. It's been said time and time again that the devs do not make content with people who have the best gear in the game in mind. They make content that can be completed by anyone who plays the game without them feeling forced to spend money to advance. I still don't have any Mythic artifacts and only one Legendary among all my characters. I also do not have any Perfect or Trans enchantments, just a few Greaters. I am doing fine without all of that supposed "BiS" stuff.

In my opinion, people put too much weight on some perceived notion that you have to have Perfects, Trans, or Mythic refined stuff. You do not. That stuff is there for those who wish to seek it out, they're not there as any sort of game requirement one has to achieve.

problem is that between mediocre and bis stuff is huge difference. if they better scaling items it will be different story

asterotg · February 2016

Or they think, that most players cant keep 2 things in their mind, so they remove wards 'booo' and they give us a double RP-WE 'yay', hoping, that we forget the 'boo' part. They did that with 2xAD weekends before (dragon hoard nerf etc.).

wylonus · February 2016

my GF still at 2.8k item score, and not able to get invite for "3K Tiamat" runs, and it seem epic Demo would be winnable for super all 3 gold if wearing +3k, since i have tried and still getting short ended as 1 silver/2 gold because i never ever got any damn Twisty Ichors since it released.
Twisty Ichor is a myth to me, it doesnt exist, because RNG made it so. i hate it the most.

i have enough runes and enchants that is ready to get upgrade, and i need 7 more C-wards almost enough to reach 2.9k or closer to 3k, that what i see "bottleneck" situations, plus i have other runes and enchants are getting close to be ready for upgrades in about 2-3 weeks, and i would need about 15-20 C-wards and a stack of P-wards for those 20%-30%.
using P-wards they get burn thru with so many fails, and that is also costly.

taitinhakkaaja · February 2016

So much bad things have happened in a year. Leadership nerf, level up xp/reward, reward nerfs (iwd HE's) etc. life steal nerf, class balance issues, broken powers, insane lag etc etc.
Thing is i really don't care anymore! Gaming should be fun and a minute this starts to annoy me i just stop playing

Sadly it means few elol runs a week, nothing else.

eldeskal · February 2016

wylonus said:
Twisty Ichor is a myth to me, it doesnt exist, because RNG made it so.

Twisted Ichor is not random. You _always_ get 1 for a Silver overall finish in Epic Demogorgon, _always_ two for a Gold overall finish. Note that this is only with epic demo, and not normal demo, and also, the Twisted Ichor is in the chest at the end, which you need a Greater Demonic Key to open. (These keys are made by the campaign task, and are free) Your run with two-golds and a silver should've given you a silver overall...so you should've gotten at least one...

wylonus said:
a stack of P-wards for those 20%-30%.
using P-wards they get burn thru with so many fails, and that is also costly.

So, some of us have noticed that the RNG on some maps is better than the RNG on other maps... Haven't tested statistically, but most of my guild will return to the SH map to do anything that involves the RNG.

santralafax · February 2016

I had noticed the monthly 2xRP events well before the nerf. My assumption was that they wanted to sell more refining goods. Note that usually refining goods are on sale in one form or another during those weekends--to help you make up your mind. Now they are just trying to make it EVEN MORE profitable by force selling the Zen shop. Apparently selling keys isn't good enough. They could have simply raised the prices....

Another possiblity on the nerf is that they need to have parity for the two games so Microsoft has less ammunition to throw at them later. And, of course, both possibilities can be true at the same time.

santralafax · February 2016

taitinhakkaaja said:
So much bad things have happened in a year. Leadership nerf, level up xp/reward, reward nerfs (iwd HE's) etc. life steal nerf, class balance issues, broken powers, insane lag etc etc.
Thing is i really don't care anymore! Gaming should be fun and a minute this starts to annoy me i just stop playing
Sadly it means few elol runs a week, nothing else.

Call it new management, and their new devs, stretching their wings. Consistency has not been a hallmark over the last year--starting in April.

klangeddin · February 2016

taitinhakkaaja said:
So much bad things have happened in a year. Leadership nerf, level up xp/reward, reward nerfs (iwd HE's) etc. life steal nerf, class balance issues, broken powers, insane lag etc etc.
Thing is i really don't care anymore! Gaming should be fun and a minute this starts to annoy me i just stop playing
Sadly it means few elol runs a week, nothing else.

The leadership nerf had to happen, the economy was broken with millions of backlog in the ZAX, in some occasions it took weeks (!) to be able to convert AD to ZEN. The undeniable fact is that after the change the ZAX price fell from 500+ to under 400 in a matter of days proves that the change was good for the overall health of the game. If anything the biggest problem is that it didn't happen at release (how could such a thing get past BETA is beyond me) and their unwillingness to act quick came back to bite them later, causing an uproar because many players (not just bots, who exacerbated the problem) had invested time and/or money to set up their own leadership army.
What do you think mod 7: Strongholds was for? To encourage guild team play? ppffftt... it was to remove all that AD from the economy without a massive rollback. Now they're nerfing costs because most of that AD must be gone.

putzboy78 · February 2016

klangeddin said:

The leadership nerf had to happen, the economy was broken with millions of backlog in the ZAX, in some occasions it took weeks (!) to be able to convert AD to ZEN. The undeniable fact is that after the change the ZAX price fell from 500+ to under 400 in a matter of days proves that the change was good for the overall health of the game. If anything the biggest problem is that it didn't happen at release (how could such a thing get past BETA is beyond me) and their unwillingness to act quick came back to bite them later, causing an uproar because many players (not just bots, who exacerbated the problem) had invested time and/or money to set up their own leadership army.
What do you think mod 7: Strongholds was for? To encourage guild team play? ppffftt... it was to remove all that AD from the economy without a massive rollback. Now they're nerfing costs because most of that AD must be gone.

And yet people are still spreading the lies that all the ad in the system came from leadership. How do we stop this rumor and educate the citizens of neverwinter?

santralafax · February 2016

klangeddin said:

The leadership nerf had to happen, the economy was broken with millions of backlog in the ZAX, in some occasions it took weeks (!) to be able to convert AD to ZEN. The undeniable fact is that after the change the ZAX price fell from 500+ to under 400 in a matter of days proves that the change was good for the overall health of the game.

I'll let the truth of the matter lie for the moment and assume you are correct. Could they have employed a less painful method--such as allowing Leadership AD on 1 character per account? Did they take any REAL steps to repair Leadership at that time?? Is it really repaired now? There has been improvements....

And doe this explaing away his other beefs, such as Lifesteal nerf? Did that happen months in advance to prepare us for the AD nerf?

Sorry if I'm a bit overheated, but it's been a tough year.

klangeddin · February 2016

putzboy78 said:

klangeddin said:

The leadership nerf had to happen, the economy was broken with millions of backlog in the ZAX, in some occasions it took weeks (!) to be able to convert AD to ZEN. The undeniable fact is that after the change the ZAX price fell from 500+ to under 400 in a matter of days proves that the change was good for the overall health of the game. If anything the biggest problem is that it didn't happen at release (how could such a thing get past BETA is beyond me) and their unwillingness to act quick came back to bite them later, causing an uproar because many players (not just bots, who exacerbated the problem) had invested time and/or money to set up their own leadership army.
What do you think mod 7: Strongholds was for? To encourage guild team play? ppffftt... it was to remove all that AD from the economy without a massive rollback. Now they're nerfing costs because most of that AD must be gone.
And yet people are still spreading the lies that all the ad in the system came from leadership. How do we stop this rumor and educate the citizens of neverwinter?

It's not a lie, the ZAX is the proof. Before leadership nerf = backlog, after leadership nerf = no backlog and huge price drop. It was NOT all the AD in the system, but it was a huge chunk of it and it was causing problems.
Leadership armies did something that was particularly harmful: IT PRINTED FRESH NEW AD INTO THE ECONOMY AT AN ALARMING RATE! This means AD hyperinflation, plain and simple.
Rough AD is the only way to increase the total AD in the system, ZAX and AH (actually, this one also takes it away with the fees and cuts) only transfer existing AD between players. So, what other sources of ROUGH AD were there that injected more AD into the economy than leadership armies? Invokes? I don't think so, but even if they did, those were partially nerfed as well, and they went hand in hand with leadership armies anyways. What else? Nothing else, that's what.

santralafax said:

klangeddin said:

The leadership nerf had to happen, the economy was broken with millions of backlog in the ZAX, in some occasions it took weeks (!) to be able to convert AD to ZEN. The undeniable fact is that after the change the ZAX price fell from 500+ to under 400 in a matter of days proves that the change was good for the overall health of the game.
I'll let the truth of the matter lie for the moment and assume you are correct. Could they have employed a less painful method--such as allowing Leadership AD on 1 character per account? Did they take any REAL steps to repair Leadership at that time?? Is it really repaired now? There has been improvements....

And doe this explaing away his other beefs, such as Lifesteal nerf? Did that happen months in advance to prepare us for the AD nerf?

Sorry if I'm a bit overheated, but it's been a tough year.

I was specifically talking about the leadership AD, the lifesteal is another matter (although I'd say that pre mod 6 lifesteal was problematic as it made tanks and healers obsolete, but let's leave it aside for a moment).
Leadership will be mostly repaired in mod 9 with the new stronghold tasks, perhaps. It won't be completely useless anyway.
Could they have used another method? sure. But something had to be done and the current situation (concerning the leadership AD) is surely improved compared to what we had before mod 7. Do we seriously want to go back to the millions of ZAX backlog waiting days if not weeks to convert AD to ZEN?
The leadership nerf was probably the easiest way they thought of to solve this problem: it was not elegant, it was not promptly compensated (it took them a while before they reduced AD costs across the game or buffed leadership back), and it could have certainly been done better, I agree. But it was still better than doing nothing and let things continue as they were.

P.S. The 1 character per account leadership wouldn't really have solved the problem, it would have only partially alleviated it, you can transfer AD between accounts with AH, with some AD loss, yeah, and that may have discouraged -some- legit players, but bots would have continued regardless.

mentinmindmaker · February 2016

I think the more frequent RPx2 we have now is because Cryptic realized people were hoarding all their RP waiting for an x2, which caused it to go a long time between each time you could reap the benefits of your efforts. That obviously was not good for your enjoyment of the game.

More frequent RPx2 gives smoother gameplay and more enjoyment from game.

I don't see much income increase from more frequent RPx2, the same refining would happen anyways just more rare.

Not everything they do is a direct money grab.

Underlying everything is a need for Cryptic to make the game enjoyable and fun. That really is the biggest income booster for them. If people don't like the game they will leave(or never start playing), and then Cryptic certainly makes no money.

I however suspect the average player lifetime in NW is fairly short, 3-4 months maybe? That means a lot of Cryptic's income comes from people in the levelling phase or doing early gearing up. So it makes sense from a business perspective to focus content on where the money are.

The old NW players might not spend that much money, meaning they are a loss for Cryptic since they do consume system resources without buying much. So we should be happy they are throwing the high-IL people a bone in the form of ONE 2000+ dungeon. Keeping the high-IL people somewhat happy is just something they do to avoid too much noise about no endgame, which would scare new people away.

I don't think Cryptic is too concerned with keeping the old high-IL players

yokki1 · February 2016

mentinmindmaker said:

The old NW players might not spend that much money, meaning they are a loss for Cryptic since they do consume system resources without buying much. So we should be happy they are throwing the high-IL people a bone in the form of ONE 2000+ dungeon. Keeping the high-IL people somewhat happy is just something they do to avoid too much noise about no endgame, which would scare new people away.

I don't think Cryptic is too concerned with keeping the old high-IL players

endgame?

taitinhakkaaja · February 2016

There is no challenge left for me and i'm not even BIS player (3.6k). With mod 7 this game changed to absolute mindless grind fest. I just got tired of that and left guild, play game as long as it's fun for me.
Sure i lost some power (guild boons), but all content is so boringly easy i really don't need those boons... All i miss is guild chat.
What is left for high il players? Try to make record time runs of same old dungeons? PVP lol, what a joke... maybe next year they balance sw... Probably not

codenie · February 2016

Yep.
First the dev's say ssssst, its blow over. After more then a week it doesn't so now are the mods reacting.....

mrgiggles651 · February 2016

klangeddin said:

It's not a lie, the ZAX is the proof. Before leadership nerf = backlog, after leadership nerf = no backlog and huge price drop.

The price for AD from goldsellers has not changed since before the nerf. If anyone would be doing mass botting, it would be them.

santralafax · February 2016

mentinmindmaker said:
I think the more frequent RPx2 we have now is because Cryptic realized people were hoarding all their RP waiting for an x2, which caused it to go a long time between each time you could reap the benefits of your efforts. That obviously was not good for your enjoyment of the game.

More frequent RPx2 gives smoother gameplay and more enjoyment from game.

I don't see much income increase from more frequent RPx2, the same refining would happen anyways just more rare.

Not everything they do is a direct money grab.

I can hold both thoughts in my head. I find the regular 2xRP a good thing for players, but that doesn't mean it's not also a money grab. I also agree that they don't worry too much about high ilevel characters. They actually give more ways to become generally BIS (3.5+). But if you buy into those, there is still no great content for you.

PVPers (I do that as well) always have the latest, strongest equipment. Charge cards and lock boxes may be involved!

nimandiir · February 2016

Still saving money, kinda a good feeling

silverkelt · February 2016

Dudes.. this is the same as leadership changes, they are not coming back..

So I fought for lower costing across the board..

What I would say is drop the outrage on this, figure out items that can be placed that have value to us.

I would say

A. Top on my list is legendary mounts at 5k tbars.

This would make me happy enough, over the course of a few months, you can use your keys to get a stockpile, get a mount.

There are ways to add value back after the removal.

Same as leadership..

Im ok with changes, as long as value of packages are similiar.

plasticbat · February 2016

The frequent 2xRP is a great move for their business. Not so good for the player.

2xRP creates the following sales opportunity for them:

1. People will hoard RP. That means inventory space. That improves sales of whatever that provides space.
2. People will be more likely (as they hope that will happen) to buy C-wards from Zen store. Before the t-bar nerf, no sale except for newbie who did not know better. Now, some sales.
3. People will be more likely to buy Zen to exchange for AD to buy RP from AH.

urabask · February 2016

WIsh people would get a clue and stop buying HAMSTER during 2x RP. Running a 2x RP event and having spending drop would be a pretty clear sign for Cryptic that they're doing something wrong.

beckylunatic · February 2016

More frequent 2xRP means you can clear out your bags more frequently, meaning you're actually less strapped for storage space than if they were still holding events further apart.

For example, I only have to live with the clutter from this 2xGems for ~2 weeks, which is tolerable.

I'm sure some people do buy wards during 2xRP, and always putting them on flash sale during 2xRP is a smart business move, but actually more player-friendly than if those items weren't on sale, because the people who are going to buy them probably would anyway.

plasticbat · February 2016

beckylunatic said:
More frequent 2xRP means you can clear out your bags more frequently, meaning you're actually less strapped for storage space than if they were still holding events further apart.

For example, I only have to live with the clutter from this 2xGems for ~2 weeks, which is tolerable.

I'm sure some people do buy wards during 2xRP, and always putting them on flash sale during 2xRP is a smart business move, but actually more player-friendly than if those items weren't on sale, because the people who are going to buy them probably would anyway.

I could be wrong but I think it is 4 weeks from now. It is very "smart" for them to have 2xGems just a bit before 2xRP. Not too long and not too short. It is not long enough people will not just spend the RP now. It is not short enough that they can get the spaces back fast.

empalas · February 2016

The coal wards weren't always so cheap...with the bar store revamp they came to be that way. I don't even remember if they were available in the bar store before that but certainly they weren't as cheap as they became. Also I'm not sure what the big deal is. I have played for 3 years and used maybe 10 or 12 coal wards total. Yes if you have several alts you want to get geared up its going to be harder and longer or costlier if you go that route. The game is still playable. Approx 340k AD will get you a coal ward if you get zen from the zax and then use one of the 15% coupons that come frequently enough with the invoke bags.

plasticbat · February 2016

empalas said:
The coal wards weren't always so cheap...with the bar store revamp they came to be that way. I don't even remember if they were available in the bar store before that but certainly they weren't as cheap as they became. Also I'm not sure what the big deal is. I have played for 3 years and used maybe 10 or 12 coal wards total. Yes if you have several alts you want to get geared up its going to be harder and longer or costlier if you go that route. The game is still playable. Approx 340k AD will get you a coal ward if you get zen from the zax and then use one of the 15% coupons that come frequently enough with the invoke bags.

It was 200 t-bar for one c-ward. I bought VIP in the beginning and one of the reasons was 200 t-bar for one c-ward.
it dropped more t-bar in average at that time too.

Using Zen store price, 1 c-ward = $10. 12 c-ward = $120.
That only gives you ONE trans level weapon/armor enchantment. Even $60 is too much.

Will I pay $10 per c-ward? No, I won't. Will I pay any $ for a c-ward? No, I won't.
Yes, the game is playable for me. But, I understand other people's frustration.

For this game, if you play frequently, you will have more than one toon. There is nothing "new" in this game because it does not have enough content after you have done everything for hundreds times. The "new" thing is to play a new toon and try something new.

soltasword · February 2016

silverkelt said:
Dudes.. this is the same as leadership changes, they are not coming back..

So I fought for lower costing across the board..

What I would say is drop the outrage on this, figure out items that can be placed that have value to us.

I would say

A. Top on my list is legendary mounts at 5k tbars.

This would make me happy enough, over the course of a few months, you can use your keys to get a stockpile, get a mount.

There are ways to add value back after the removal.

Same as leadership..

Im ok with changes, as long as value of packages are similiar.

The only problem with what you say is it gives Cryptic the ok to continue the bait-n-switch attitude they have towards all their playerbase. That needs to stop. And saying one thing and doing something else needs to stop as well. The plain fact of the matter is that if Microsoft gave back refunds because of this, then, we on the pc side need to be given refunds as well ( for any vip time remaining, not already used ). And also. this should have been a good indication that this was pretty unethical of them to do this.

But your right, they won't come back. And neither will a lot of their players. But since they don't care about their players, what difference does it make. Anyone that spends money on this game after this is just plain foolish.

Update on the Trade Bar Store

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