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Can you explain why HR perma-roots\daze are still going on?

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  • kweassakweassa Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    Normally you make sense most of the time but you're way off this time.

    This isn't what most Trappers do. Pretty sure barely anyone takes the root chance feat.

    It's basically like this:

    1) Engage
    2) Hindering Shot
    3) Switch Stance
    4) Constricting Arrow
    5) (Disruptive Shot if AP available)
    6) Engage Melee
    7) Fox Shift (Or Hindering Strike)
    8) Hindering Strike (Or Fox Shift)
    9) Steel Breeze (Optional, does HAMSTER damage)
    10) Switch stance
    11) Repeat rotation

    (As for careful attack. When the HR applies it depends on the HR. Some apply it after the first or 2nd move. Some apply it in the middle.) Hell, you don't even need to be PathFinder anymore for HR to excel in PVP. So even careful attack is optional these days.

    Like said, theoretical. I don't use it that way either. In real life cases there are much more 1v1 situations, as well as close-range situations and you need to prepare for a certain amount of balance with encounter powers so that it has strong roo-dazing, as well as utilities and melee uses.

    It's an example to show how a trapper can cycle the variety of powers which induce roots to keep the daze going.

    Stop making excuses. Be a man.
    If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
    Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
  • crimpatulcrimpatul Member Posts: 197
    edited July 2015
    TR: Daze. Shocking execution. DC sigil at mythic 60 s.

    CW: Jump, Dodge range roots, repel to break melee rotation, jump, entangle, ray of frost, dodge or jump, moar dps. Adapt/Repeat.

    GWF: Sprint, Unstoppable, stun, IBS/daily.

    GF: Block, anvil.

    DC: Empowered astral shield. Laugh.

    OP: no comment. Cleanse+temp hp+perma bubble+stuns+gap closer.

    Only SW has problems, but its not only with the HR class.

    Are you talking about serious PVP or just GG?

    Are you talking about equally geared and skilled players in 1 vs 1?

  • kweassakweassa Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    crimpatul wrote: »
    TR: Daze. Shocking execution. DC sigil at mythic 60 s.

    CW: Jump, Dodge range roots, repel to break melee rotation, jump, entangle, ray of frost, dodge or jump, moar dps. Adapt/Repeat.

    GWF: Sprint, Unstoppable, stun, IBS/daily.

    GF: Block, anvil.

    DC: Empowered astral shield. Laugh.

    OP: no comment. Cleanse+temp hp+perma bubble+stuns+gap closer.

    Only SW has problems, but its not only with the HR class.

    Are you talking about serious PVP or just GG?

    Rather, the question's on you. Are you really mentioning those as 'solutions' for "serious PvP"?

    (Like, you are aware that many of the roots are undodgeable in the first place, right?)

    Stop making excuses. Be a man.
    If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
    Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
  • crimpatulcrimpatul Member Posts: 197
    edited July 2015
    Roots are dodgeable. Where did you get that info? Do you play a HR?

    I will not write a manual for you.
  • ralexinorralexinor Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 576 Arc User
    crimpatul wrote: »
    Roots are dodgeable. Where did you get that info? Do you play a HR?

    I will not write a manual for you.

    Roots are not dodgeable. GWF/SW Sprint and OP/GF Block do provide CC immunity against root effects, however, with the CC resist change to Thorned Roots several patches ago, CC immunity no longer removes Thorned Root ticks, which may or may not be a bug. This actually makes GWF/SW/GF take more burst damage from Thorned Roots, since TR gives an additional tick against CC immune targets (no one cares about damage when fighting the blatantly broken OPs).

    TRs, HRs, CWs and DCs cannot dodge roots. Roots will always apply after the dodge. The only time you will see them "dodged" is deflect or Elven Battle giving that illusion because it shortens the duration.

    In terms of 1v1s, HRs actually aren't as bad as some people may think they are. Barring DCs and OPs, HRs can kill all classes 1v1 with at least a 50-50 chance. Sure, peanuts for damage, but that's also largely due to Cold Shoulder, which is one thing that should be looked at. Against some classes, HRs definitely do have the advantage.

    HRs are probably the class that suffers from the Cold Shoulder boon the most, and it's also part of the reason why damage is so low. The boon is pretty stupid itself, I've had someone proc it for 30 seconds straight on me (aka 0 damage for daaaays). It needs a cooldown or to actually just proc once, not for 10 seconds straight.

    Damage should be increased. Exact percentage remains to be seen, as HR damage sources are skewed to the wrong places imo, it should be coming from encounters and active at-wills (aka not Careful Attack), not from procs like Thorned Roots.

    Crushing Roots should have an ICD or be reworked. It would be nice to have a separate ICD for weak roots and strong roots, otherwise it defeats the point of that sometimes. Additionally, Trapper's Cunning should not proc Crushing Roots. At the very least, these changes should help the class, although I still think the Trapper tree as a whole should be reworked with the cooldowns/Thorned removed, and the base damage of everything buffed.

    By the way, crimpatul, I've fought against you, and here's some advice: the way to play HR is not to spam the moment you see something. The only class that sort of playstyle is really effective against is GWF. Every other class will destroy you if they're good players if you just spam. The class does have its own sort of timing, although with low CD encounters it's not very obvious, but it's there and can be the difference between life and death.
  • noetic2noetic2 Member Posts: 150 Arc User
    Confusing. Don't understand 3. Hindering shot and Constricting arrow are both ranged. Why switch? I'd say that anybody who has a single set rotation is not playing Trapper very well. Encounters recover at different speeds. And it all depends on the number of adversaries.
  • piejalpiejal Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 403 Arc User
    how to fight HR? use elven battle instead of negation
    Damage resist or Control resist? pick one you can't have both
    why root can't be dodge? it's the same as other class CC that can't be dodge, don't use double standart man up
  • rustlordrustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    piejal wrote: »
    how to fight HR? use elven battle instead of negation

    Big NO. You're signing your own death warrant if you use Elven against Trapper HR. Read here if you don't know the Thorned Roots bug.

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  • piejalpiejal Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 403 Arc User
    rustlord wrote: »
    piejal wrote: »
    how to fight HR? use elven battle instead of negation

    Big NO. You're signing your own death warrant if you use Elven against Trapper HR. Read here if you don't know the Thorned Roots bug.

    i am HR and using Trans elven.. and i don't have a clue about this being bugged please give screenshot of the log..
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  • icyphishicyphish Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 1,255 Arc User
    Is the bug still there? I thought its' been fixed a few weeks ago?
    icydrake%20avatar2_zpsg7rp0xti.jpg

    Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
  • vaulwynvaulwyn Member Posts: 94 Arc User
    From the perspective of GF, HR control is extremely broken.

    At the same gear level around 3k-3.5k if you are a GF and the HR knows what their doing it is nothing but pure miracle if you are allowed any chance at all to fight back.
    GF - Sigh
  • piejalpiejal Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 403 Arc User
    macjae wrote: »
    ... what other class has CC that can't be dodged?

    smoke bomb TR cc effect can be dodge? NO
    entangle CW cc effect can be dodge? NO
    conduit of ice CW tick can be dodge? NO
    exct
    all CC effect and damage over time in all class can't be dodge in this game so stop using double standart
  • revovlerjesus1revovlerjesus1 Member Posts: 481 Arc User
    piejal wrote: »
    macjae wrote: »
    ... what other class has CC that can't be dodged?

    smoke bomb TR cc effect can be dodge? NO
    entangle CW cc effect can be dodge? NO
    conduit of ice CW tick can be dodge? NO
    exct
    all CC effect and damage over time in all class can't be dodge in this game so stop using double standart

    Erhm.... YES u can.
  • kweassakweassa Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    piejal wrote: »
    smoke bomb TR cc effect can be dodge? NO
    entangle CW cc effect can be dodge? NO
    conduit of ice CW tick can be dodge? NO
    exct
    all CC effect and damage over time in all class can't be dodge in this game so stop using double standart

    1. Smokebomb can be dodged. The power has a short, but clear activation time which allows for one dodge just before the effect takes place. Even those without dodges (GWF/SW) can sprint out of the radius and receive just a single 'tick' of damage and very short daze effect.

    2. Entangling Force can be dodged. It's admittedly one of the more difficult powers to dodge, but nowhere on the difficulty level of dodging -- for example -- Icy Rays, one of the most difficult powers to dodge in the game, which is clearly possible, but improbable. (In most cases a successful dodge from Icy Rays is usually a "pure chance" happening rather than intentional defensive action)

    3. CoI can't be dodged. It just takes effect. But of course, everyone is open to question just how effective CoI is as either an offensive, or utility power in the game. Any CW here actually use CoI -- like, ever -- raise your hands. If CoI was undodgeable, caused hefty damage, rooted you in place, and then induced a daze upon you, then I'd probably venture most people would also raise objections to the severity of CoI as an "problematic" power.
    Stop making excuses. Be a man.
    If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
    Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
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  • jarecstephjarecsteph Member Posts: 270 Arc User
    Nobody should be daze or root more than 2 second period.
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  • piejalpiejal Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 403 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    kweassa wrote: »
    piejal wrote: »


    1. Smokebomb can be dodged. The power has a short, but clear activation time which allows for one dodge just before the effect takes place. Even those without dodges (GWF/SW) can sprint out of the radius and receive just a single 'tick' of damage and very short daze effect.

    2. Entangling Force can be dodged. It's admittedly one of the more difficult powers to dodge, but nowhere on the difficulty level of dodging -- for example -- Icy Rays, one of the most difficult powers to dodge in the game, which is clearly possible, but improbable. (In most cases a successful dodge from Icy Rays is usually a "pure chance" happening rather than intentional defensive action)

    3. CoI can't be dodged. It just takes effect. But of course, everyone is open to question just how effective CoI is as either an offensive, or utility power in the game. Any CW here actually use CoI -- like, ever -- raise your hands. If CoI was undodgeable, caused hefty damage, rooted you in place, and then induced a daze upon you, then I'd probably venture most people would also raise objections to the severity of CoI as an "problematic" power.

    Smokebomb, not every class got long roll dodge like TR did, you need to try using HR dodge
    Entangling force, i am not talking about the damage.. the CC can't not be dodge
    conduit of ice is just one of the example of damage over time encounter

    my point is target encounter all class CC effect in this game can't be dodge and Damage over time tick can't be dodge
    if you want root can be dodge, make all class CC can be dodge, and make daze effect from smokebomb gone when we step out from smokebomb area then you got my vote

    thorn root tick 5-6 times on dummy but in pvp is different story
    (1s+(5s/2))*60% = 1.92s it's not even 2s root and less with target use elven battle and have control resist stat, in most case thorn root only tick once each encounter in PVP

    why HR Root and daze is fine?
    because there is armor ench called elven battle, Damage reduction or control resist pick one you can't have em both
    because it's mean so that DC and Pally became possible to be killed
    because it's mean so that TR and GWF became possible to catch when they running
    Post edited by piejal on
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  • rustlordrustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    piejal wrote: »
    i am HR and using Trans elven.. and i don't have a clue about this being bugged please give screenshot of the log..

    Thanks to being deflected, and the paladin standing close but holy mother of... 15K pre-mitigation ticks, 16 times...

    Edit: actually, 18 times cuz...scrolled up. Here's the full log http://pastebin.com/wAcr6vuz

    Edit2: Notice the net damage going from 834 to 1113 was not a case of Thorned Roots being reapplied, but just my passive buffs wearing out.

    ukffJSA.png
  • piejalpiejal Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 403 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    On Elven Battle it ticks 736455364756 times. And if 2 HRs got you, you 100% dead only from ticks.
    2 HR got you? and what if 2 CW got you? or 2 TR got you? pffttt..
    rustlord wrote: »
    Thanks to being deflected, and the paladin standing close but holy mother of... 15K pre-mitigation ticks, 16 times...

    Edit: actually, 18 times cuz...scrolled up. Here's the full log http://pastebin.com/wAcr6vuz

    Edit2: Notice the net damage going from 834 to 1113 was not a case of Thorned Roots being reapplied, but just my passive buffs wearing out.

    ukffJSA.png


    so where the prove of 10k tick damage? if you talking about damage before being mitigate my BIS HR thornroot can deal crit 17k/tick on dummy and i got 80% arp
    can you please make video with showing using pvp gear and show me the log? are you sure not being hit by costric AOE or binding AOE?

  • rustlordrustlord Member Posts: 1,454 Arc User
    Don't really have the patience to make a video just for you. Seems like you're the only one who doesn't know this bug. Besides, I've provided so much info already. I was once hit by 9.9K from a non-deflected, crit Thorned Roots. The fact that it's being affected by damage modifiers tells you enough that you should be able to figure it out. I'm not your personal assistant.
  • kweassakweassa Member Posts: 2,390 Arc User
    piejal wrote: »
    Smokebomb, not every class got long roll dodge like TR did, you need to try using HR dodge Entangling force, i am not talking about the damage.. the CC can't not be dodge conduit of ice is just one of the example of damage over time encounter

    1. No problems with dodging SB with my HR. Yes, you heard me right. Got tired of all your bullsheet so I made a HR myself. Nope. No problems whatsoever dodging Smokebomb. It also helps I'm originally a TR, so I know the class inside and out, and what to expect at what timing. Don't assume your lack of skill is a commonplace thing.

    2. Just as much, I dodge EF all the time as well. As a matter of fact, singular, target-fired ranged CCs are not anything special, even with HR dodges. The only powers that have really wonky timing and difficult to dodge, are Crescendo and Flourish from the GWFs, but guess how many Swordmasters are really running the GF/GWF scene.

    3. So then make a thread to fix CoI. I don't care. Basic logic 101 -- two wrong don't make a right.


    my point is target encounter all class CC effect in this game can't be dodge and Damage over time tick can't be dodge if you want root can be dodge, make all class CC can be dodge, and make daze effect from smokebomb gone when we step out from smokebomb area then you got my vote

    Sorry, my delusional friend. It is already mostly like that -- except, for HR roots. Which major CC in game, that is so powerful as to make even the best of players just cringe in disgust due to the broken mechanics, cannot be dodged in this game?

    thorn root tick 5-6 times on dummy but in pvp is different story
    (1s+(5s/2))*60% = 1.92s it's not even 2s root and less with target use elven battle and have control resist stat, in most case thorn root only tick once each encounter in PVP

    Thorned Roots ticks for more than 7~8k on average, even upto 10k ticks with crits. You ever seen CoI tick for 10k?

    why HR Root and daze is fine?
    because there is armor ench called elven battle, Damage reduction or control resist pick one you can't have em both
    because it's mean so that DC and Pally became possible to be killed
    because it's mean so that TR and GWF became possible to catch when they running

    ...and that's why nobody here takes you seriously, and think you're just a troll and a joke.




    Stop making excuses. Be a man.
    If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
    Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
  • piejalpiejal Member, NW M9 Playtest Posts: 403 Arc User
    rustlord wrote: »
    Don't really have the patience to make a video just for you. Seems like you're the only one who doesn't know this bug. Besides, I've provided so much info already. I was once hit by 9.9K from a non-deflected, crit Thorned Roots. The fact that it's being affected by damage modifiers tells you enough that you should be able to figure it out. I'm not your personal assistant.

    your statement is not right just because you say so.. if you are to lazy to give prove then please stop typing

    for kweasa, yes my 3970 ilv HR can deal thornroot +-10k/tick when crit depend of enemy DR, so do you know what TR or CW capable of when being BIS ?
    it's useless to have a discussion with people who use double standart, the fact is thornroot arp being fixed, TR being nerf, CW being nerf so man up and deal with it
  • asterotgasterotg Member Posts: 1,742 Arc User
    edited July 2015
    kweassa wrote: »
    ]Any CW here actually use CoI -- like, ever -- raise your hands. ...

    'Raised hand'.^^ Fighting a MI/sabo I use CoI, to break their perma stealth/ITC rotation.

    Chars: CW, DC, GF, GWF, HR and TR.
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  • jarecstephjarecsteph Member Posts: 270 Arc User
    High damage from passive procs should not exist I'm 100% with you on that

    And concerning Elven Enchant and Thorne Roots it happened to me several times to lose like 40k while running from a node to another without being attacked anymore.
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