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Can you explain why HR perma-roots\daze are still going on?
jarecsteph
Member Posts: 270 Arc User
Can you explain why HR perma-roots\daze are still going on? And why Elven Battle Enchantment is still bugged ticking damage like crazy against perma-roots so Elven can’t be used against HR.
I’m sorry but not being able to move 95% of a fight is not my definition of a fun PVP match but a real turn off.
Are we not passed all these perma-stuff? It’s killing the game buy killing the fun. Don’t you get it 1,000 something board pages instead of over 4,000 does it ring a bell? Over 60,000 players missing.
I’m sorry but not being able to move 95% of a fight is not my definition of a fun PVP match but a real turn off.
Are we not passed all these perma-stuff? It’s killing the game buy killing the fun. Don’t you get it 1,000 something board pages instead of over 4,000 does it ring a bell? Over 60,000 players missing.
Post edited by jarecsteph on
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Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
I've kind of noticed that people in this game kinda love when their enemy can't hit them back. Stealth/CC chains and oneshots. PvP is not serious business here
But, think about it: their damage is meh, they are soft also. Take away rooting the way they are now, and it would be a joke to take them down. Literally, they would be hitting you with a spoon, dodge and then when you catch them (you will, and in a short time, they're not as slippery as a saboteur TR), you eat away most of their HP or even 1-rotate them.
What i usually do i sprint for long/ spam dodge at the start, as soon as i get in range. Most trappers just shoot their rotation at you as soon/ fast as they can, so suddenly sprint when you get in range makes them waste their CC on immunity. When you get close to them they will suppose you will stop to hit, and use some more CC, may be melee version of hindering shot (don't remember the name i'm a nab HR). So you keep sprinting a bit more.
Now he will dodge, so you time your hits and nail him. If you're a GWF use Restoring strike to recover stamina.
Pressure them cause while they're dodging they cannot spam root on you.
True, however, that if they catch you in their rotation, you're in for a long one-sided beating.
I would raise damage on trappers and tone down CC a lot, switching the path from "10CC-2DPS" to "5CC-7DPS".
More balanced (numbers are random values to give an idea of the proportions).
Assuming "10DPS" is a fully stacked GWF damage, and that GWFs are like "10DPS-2CC", an HR trapper with 5CC and 7 DPS would be balanced. Combat HR would be like 9DPS-3CC or 10-2 just like a GWF.
Obviously talking about full rotations and considering how HR trademark is the double ranged+melee combat type with double rotation.
In the case of trappers it might be less root duration and no interrupt on some rooting powers, but increased DoT damage.
So trappers would deal DPS through strong DoTs and have SOME more root and interrupt, while a combat HR would deal high burst damage, no DoT.
Like CW frost, roots should have a cool down on the player that has been rooted before it can affect that player again.
Why do we have to post concerning CC abuse again and again?
Concerning HR damage; they are quite effective and should not change.
And please patch the Elven Battle Enchantment bug against root.
@teribad15
Not only damage. Most HRs should wanna dodge rework. I wanna to back fox from mod2-3. Also many class feautures should be reworked like Battlehorned(400 regen, such wow) or Bladestorm.
Go try it. Best advice anyone can give.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Try to win game with 2 top HR on enemy team. Its massacre.
Steel and Magic
The thing is, I'm not saying I approve of the root→daze mechanics. It's cheesy as h3ll and basically a no-brainer for anyone to use. It should be removed, yes, but the end result of what would happen is destroy the class in general.
Like, recently I've opened some pet projects for the last couple of months, and it was concentrated on rediscovering "overlooked paths/builds" to see just how much of it was the truth, when some classes argue that. "It's impossible to PvP without using this build". So far, the conclusion I've reached was:
(1) TR players in general don't know jacksheet about how other paths can be viable
(2) GWF players are generally right, since instigator builds just bring tear to my ideas with their hardships
(3) CW players also are clueless in that they don't know what CC-focus builds can do
(4) and 4, playing a HR without using the insane Root-Daze mechanic, is frustratingly difficult
Yes, again, the root-daze mechanic must be removed. Specifically speaking "Crushing Roots" is one of the most bullsheet class features that has ever existed in this game, and in addition stuff like Trapper's Cunning at tier3 of the trapper tree, is also a big boo-boo.
But at the same time I would like to dare anyone to come up with a working, non-[root+daze] HR build for PvP.
I'm a realist. I believe only what I see, and if what I see is unquestionable then I'll believe it no matter what my previous disposition towards it was before. That's why I spent the time trying unpopular paths, paragons, skills, to experiment myself and see if things are really as "not viable" as others say. Many of such claims are bullsheet misconceptions, but some are not.
HRs having it difficult, is one of them. Specifically speaking, with the recent changes to lifesteal/regeneration mechanics, nerf to Careful Attack and the Combat tree in general, the problem lies in that the HR class is generally so weak in terms of defense that to make up for it it spends almost all of its time on the move. Shifting, moving, dodging.
Sure, other classes generally maneuver similarly. But if you want to understand what a HR that does not abuse the current root-daze mechanic is like, try this:
(1) stop using shield on your CW
(2) stop using negation on your CW
(3) change all your encounters to lowest-damage ones
(4) stop using any power that CCs more than 1 second (= no CC encoutners, no Ray of Frost)
Basically, the above is the same thing as using a HR without the root-daze cheese. A HR that uses the root-daze cheesy mechanic, is sort of like adding in; "(5) all of his shots fired will daze/root someone" to above. This is undoubtably an overpowered, krap of a mechanic that should not exist. So once this is added to above the HR is able to ignore his wekanesses between (1)~(4) and simply permacontrol the other guy. But once this is removed from the HR, then (1)~(4) takes effect and the class falls apart.
It's been more than a month I'm trying to stop things from 'falling apart' with my own experimental HR build, and every fight is hell. When you don't have the crazy root-daze mechanic even the SWs very easily trample you over. You spend all your time to survive and defend yourself, so whatever attacks you make are those small, short shots in between all those dodging around. A root-daze abuser can induce a perma-CC from those small shots, but once that is not possible, then the HR needs to be able to deal significant damage with those 'small shots'.
...and good luck in doing that against a BiS GWF, or the shield-toting GF/Palys. When you haven't actually tried and experienced this, then you have no idea.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Show me logs in ACT of your results. Roots can be buffed only with Combat Advantage and Critical Severity or sources like ITF, serpent or capstone of trapper. Forgot to say - you need weapons with the highest weapon damage to see result. Even you can delete this feat i dont care about trappers. Do no stray another trees through the prism of trapper. Trapper uses usually:
- Swiftness combined with forestborn to get burst
- Abusing TAB to glitch Bitting Snares to get around 80-100% AP
- Crushing roots combined with "perma" burst
- Using Thorned Roots with buffs to deal "high" damage
So. Now go on preview and show me effective of trapper. For experiment dont use first two hyphens. Please, dont show single feat to hide another problems of HR.
Author of GWF Speed Demon PvP Build (Mod 11) <- Click to reveal the Speedy Beast! >:)
Battle Fury?
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Most players are morons. Any HR with two wired together brain cells will use their 5 second stealth daily so you don't see them coming, and if you're a SW, it's GG and over before it starts and you even see them. Just as abusive as out of stealth SE TRs except not burst, but troll time before you're dead. But that's SW, so the readheaded stepchild of PvP. Basically I don't want to hear about how some other class has it tough if they don't have their broken OP gimmick. SW got nothing going for it.
Don't you think its attitude like that which pushes both the opponents and proponents of problematic mechanics to extremes? Like, as I said, remove the mechanic without a redesign/retweak of the class and soon you'll find out how the 'red headed step-child' changes.
Like mentioned, and repeated again, that is of course no means an excuse. The mechanic must be removed or totally changed into something else, but at the same time there needs to be more closer look and understanding on the current reality of the class, and just how it is involved with its general role in combat. Without due sympathy and understanding, and proper consensus of the entire community on how the class can be made "BETTER" for everyone, just "NERF" call is going to destroy the class, whereas just "LEAVE IT ALONE" will make countless victims of broken cheesy mechanics.
I've had enough of that sheet in mod5 where it was total chaos surrounding some classes like the CAGI GWF builds, TR builds, and immortal DC builds. I'd really love to see the community stepping down from both extremes and actually reaching a consensus, a joint call to the devs so that broken sheet is removed, while at the same time the class is properly compensated as a result of such change.
(ps. Heck, if some of the renowned and respected players of all classes gathered around, and reaches a consensus on which part of each class needs to be changed for the better, while at the same time also suggesting the removal of 'broken' stuff from each of the classes, and petitions the devs to make it so, then I'd gladly sign it)
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
There are some bugs which make it worse, but the basic form is -- in terms of the systems/mechanics -- WAI. Which means it's an oversight. There are two core mechanics, and 2~3 more general mechanics which effectively causes a perma-stun.
The first one is called "Crushing Roots", a class feature that turns all root-type powers to induce a micro-daze. The problem is that HRs have 3 ranged encounters that causes a root to happen, and the melee version of one of those powers also cause a root.
The second one is called Trapper's Cunning, which causes any of your attacks that crit to induce a root at a 25% chance. If you have around 50% crit chance, this translates into about 12.5% of whatever of your attacks made just causes roots, which, in turn, when combined with above, will also induce daze.
The supplementary mechanics are all within the Trapper tree, and these reduce the recharge time of your powers every time you cause a root to happen, or hit with encounter powers.
.....
The specific power choices differ according to preference, but just for example let's say you have a HR armed with all of them -- Hindering Shot, Constricting Arrow, Binding Arrow. If this HR is adequately prepared for PvP he'll start the game with max AP using SigDiv.
So when he meets an opponent, he does this:
(1) fires off Disruptive Shot = daze
(2) fires off Hindering Shot1 = daze
(3) fires off an at-will shot = 12.5% chance of daze
(4) closes in, switches to melee, hits with Hindering Strike = daze
(5) switches to ranged, fires off an at-will shot = 12.5% chance of daze
(5) fires off Hindering Shot2 = daze
(6) fires off an at-will shot = 12.5% chance of daze
(6) fires off Constricting Arrow = daze
(7) fires off an at-will shot = 12.5% chance of daze
(8) fires off Binding Arrow = daze
(10) fires off an at-will shot = 12.5% chance of daze
(11) fires off Hindering Shot3 = daze
(12) fires off an at-will shot = 12.5% chance of daze
(13) fires off Disruptive Shot = daze
(14) all of the encounters shot above amount upto quick recharge for Hindering Strike,
(15) your very first Hindering Shot1 is about recharged now
(16) fires off Hindering Shot1 = daze
(17) fires off an at-will shot = 12.5% chance of daze
(18) switches to melee, hits with Hindering Strike = daze
(19) fires off an at-will shot = 12.5% chance of daze
...so about at this time, finally the HR uses up all Hindering Shots, the other two ranged encounters have about 3~4 more seconds to go until recharge, and the HR resorts to firing at-will shots, which will also cause root-dazes with 12.5% chance each.
During the course of all the above attacks, the attacks come in with such short intervals and causes roots, and thus dazes everytime. When youre both rooted and dazed, it's effectively same as a micro stun. If you're lucky a lot of the at-wills used in between the cycling of powers will fail to crit, or fail to proc a root, in which case you have a tiny window to use maybe one power, and then immediately after that you're dazed again.
Frankly speaking, in worst-case scenarios, it becomes as if you're keyboard is unplugged. Unless you are one of those classes with innate CC-immunity like GWFs or MI/TRs, you can spend more than 10~15 seconds while nothing works on your key-press. By smart cycling of powers you just play a one-sided game with the enemy having little to no chance of fighting back. He can't even move around and try to make it to friendlies or anything. He just stands there, does nothing, and loses more than half HP, until he's finally given a chance to try something for the first time... and then after a few seconds the same thing repeats again.
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I'm a trapper HR and run a ton of PVP (ranked around 400 on the NCL), I don't run a rotation like that and haven't seen a HR run a rotation like that. I will have to give it a try, but it seems to me it will just open up more gaps. There are gaps in our rotation, I haven't fought an HR that didn't have any gaps, some just kill you faster than others. The biggest difference seems to be the negation enchant. I am currently using a greater negation if I go against a HR with a higher lvl negation they are able to take more damage and can last longer and I end up being killed. When I go up against players of equal or greater gear lvl they have no problem countering me. Under my gear lvl not so much, TRs are the exception. SW seams to be the weakest against us HRs, but if you don't tie them down quickly they will kill you just the same.
make roots last longer
to do nothing and die , simply stupid , at least being trap you can cast something ...
but DEVs arent that preoccupied by those subject and wont fix it
It's just a theoretical example for the purpose of explaining why the 'permastun' happens, rather than a real, practical rotation. However, it also means that non-Trapper HRs, although not as proficient as true Trappers, can basically make the same use of the mechanic to secure a very long one-sided beating until "source of roots" runs out.
The problem is that the "width" of those "gaps" are actually relative. Classes which have certain powers or skills, that are strong enough to instantly remedy the situation and seek retaliation, can make use of those gaps relatively easier than others. For example the TR can enter stealth, and a GF or Paly would have just enough time to get the shields back up and stop flow of permastunning. However in many cases the "gap" is often quite narrow for most classes.
Of course, sometimes, when you are really unlucky, every simple at-will fired at you will proc a root-stun in addition to other intentuonal attempts. When this happens there's just nothing you can do, as there are no 'gaps' in the first place. The longest ever for me was being rooted by a trapper as a WK TR, for 24 seconds straight, which, during the entire time nothing worked. No 'gaps' at all. Just standing there, and dropping dead.
But like you said, it is more likely there are some open gaps in usual cases, and this usually allows a very quick, one or two moves to either escape from the trapper, or try to turn the tables around.. and it's tough.
...
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
you could have trapper, if I could have my combat hr back from mod 2.. That was a fun blend to play.
As someone who has played many classes in pvp over the course of 2 years (other then gf... omg people who play that class... kudos to them, even now that they are better.. its just not my cup of tea) most posts are just (nerf the other class, but not mine thread)
I'm pretty sure no HR trapper with pvp build uses that rotation with so many at-wills, we seldom use at-wills during the rotation. And the trapper rangers that use Binding Arrow are extremely rare because that power is not nearly as effective as Fox's cunning for example in a pvp fight.
The two at-wills used are Hunter's Teamwork and Careful Attack (different stance of the same skill) that basically are both fire-and-forget type of skill, and they do not intervene directly in the daze combo. There is no need of using at-wills to root/daze indefinitely someone.
What most people seem to be neglecting is that the power combination that causes the perma-daze in mod6 was already being used in mod 5 before rangers could daze foes, which is Fox/hindering/constricting usually with Aspect of the Serpent and Wolf slotted in for PvP. Devs seem to have gone with the players and improved this combo rotation in mod6 introducing the Crushing Roots ability that induces micro-dazes and replaces either serpent or wolf. Mind you that no one in my knowledge asked for daze ability to the HR class for module 6, it was a surprise to everyone. To me it's very clear this is a wanted feature and it is working as intended, I might agree it's a bit too much (a lot of classes have "a bit too much" of many things in mod 6 btw) but thats not the point of my post.
Normally you make sense most of the time but you're way off this time.
This isn't what most Trappers do. Pretty sure barely anyone takes the root chance feat.
It's basically like this:
1) Engage
2) Hindering Shot
3) Switch Stance
4) Constricting Arrow
5) (Disruptive Shot if AP available)
6) Engage Melee
7) Fox Shift (Or Hindering Strike)
8) Hindering Strike (Or Fox Shift)
9) Steel Breeze (Optional, does HAMSTER damage)
10) Switch stance
11) Repeat rotation
(As for careful attack. When the HR applies it depends on the HR. Some apply it after the first or 2nd move. Some apply it in the middle.) Hell, you don't even need to be PathFinder anymore for HR to excel in PVP. So even careful attack is optional these days.