twoheadedpuig giveme a "historical" (and irrelevant) argument:
"zacazu, everything you say is wrong.
From the very beginning of Neverwinter, CW has been a DPS class while being Controllers. After 2 years with 6 major changes to the game, if the devs wanted to relegate CW to putting carrots on the noses of snowmen, it would have happened by now."
my response? dev quote
m3 (past)
"To be perfectly frank, the CW is very much out of line right now. They provide too much damage and their AoEs don't really conform to the same damage rules as they ideally should. But we have looked at various reasons as to why they cause problems and some of that lies in their feats, some in their base ratios, some in target caps, and that is really quite a few dials to tune all at once. We are looking at where they belong and what role they need to fit into in combat, as well as ways to preserve some roles that players enjoy without making them the best option at all times."
m6 (present)
"As far as not critically striking, because of the way the power functions it was *always* critically striking and could never not crit, which meant that vorpal and other effects that boost critical severity were worth several times more value on this feature than intended when it originally got buffed. Since it cannot just natively crit (because it actually latches on to your powers so their targeting is inherited), I've opted to prevent it from critically striking instead of lowering the damage, which puts it more in line with where it should be. This is the bigger of the two nerfs. In cases where it was making up 30% of your damage, it will probably fall closer to 18%, which is much more in line with what we wanted from this feature in comparison with the options MoF brings to the table."
past+"present"=history of the class
you need think less and read more. be sarcastic (or try) in your case is just bad irony of destiny.
Eu não quero voltar mais aqui, mas vocês pedem por uma surra.
ps: por isto eu falei em discutir em duas linhas. são incapazes de entender o que leem, e isto inclui o argumento de outros que TAMBÉM não entendem o que leem. trágico. (ou fingem; o que atribuo a algum tipo de fetiche)
Lets do this: make some mimimi below and I'll try ignore this time.
I wouldn't bother trying to argue with the player base. Most players can't understand that a CW should almost always top paingiver charts simply because of their intended role (which is, aoe damage dealer). Go read the 4th edition definition of a controller and MAYBE, MAYBE you'll finally understand. In term of single target damage, a CW is much lower dps than a GWF or TR.
Wrong. Striker classes should top damage charts. In other words, HR, SW, and TR. GWF should be next, because they are a hybrid striker/defender. Then CW, because they are supposed to do aoe damage to a large number of abilities, but their main purpose is to control. Also, the damage dealing wizards are known as war wizards. Control wizards are just control. GF should be next, because fighters are suppose to do good damage for a defender. Then OP, because defenders still.come above leaders. And finally DC, because the entire purpose of leaders is support, not damage. By the way, control is CC effects and rebuffs, making control wizards have a secondary role of leader, not striker. They should be able to up respectable damage, on par with say a control or support focused striker, but even a damage path should not beat a true striker trying to be a striker. This is the truth, and the fact CWs were the best damage dealers for 5 modules was a mistake that is finally being fixed. I for one am glad. I enjoy CW, but my favorite build is a MoF Oppressor with spell twisting. Watching my enemies be unable to do anything while my striker buddies beat them up is an amazing feeling. And I know what it feels like to be on the receiving end of having a good CW. I believe CW will remain the most wanted class for dungeons if we give up our dreams of being a striker and just try to help our party in the way we do best; by controlling the living sh*t out of them
I wouldn't bother trying to argue with the player base. Most players can't understand that a CW should almost always top paingiver charts simply because of their intended role (which is, aoe damage dealer). Go read the 4th edition definition of a controller and MAYBE, MAYBE you'll finally understand. In term of single target damage, a CW is much lower dps than a GWF or TR.
Wrong. Striker classes should top damage charts. In other words, HR, SW, and TR. GWF should be next, because they are a hybrid striker/defender. Then CW, because they are supposed to do aoe damage to a large number of abilities, but their main purpose is to control. Also, the damage dealing wizards are known as war wizards. Control wizards are just control. GF should be next, because fighters are suppose to do good damage for a defender. Then OP, because defenders still.come above leaders. And finally DC, because the entire purpose of leaders is support, not damage. By the way, control is CC effects and rebuffs, making control wizards have a secondary role of leader, not striker. They should be able to up respectable damage, on par with say a control or support focused striker, but even a damage path should not beat a true striker trying to be a striker. This is the truth, and the fact CWs were the best damage dealers for 5 modules was a mistake that is finally being fixed. I for one am glad. I enjoy CW, but my favorite build is a MoF Oppressor with spell twisting. Watching my enemies be unable to do anything while my striker buddies beat them up is an amazing feeling. And I know what it feels like to be on the receiving end of having a good CW. I believe CW will remain the most wanted class for dungeons if we give up our dreams of being a striker and just try to help our party in the way we do best; by controlling the living sh*t out of them
This I gotta disagree with. For all classes there should be some versatility. You should have the option to be either a controller or dps, Dps or tank, etc. Just saying keep support as support and dps as dps is crazy. And it destroys game play for people.
Like I said before and many others. If you limit our dps give us CC to fall back on. But don't leave us with nothing.
Me person I like my sudo hybrid build. It works. It CC's for a good amount of time and I do a bit of damage. I'm not totally concerned with paingiver but I'm normally number 2. And I'm just fine with that. I don't mind being a back up dps that's not too far off from the main dps in a group. I have that niche and it works. But to out right limit a class and saying they should only do that isn't right. Even more so when the game was not set up originally like that. If they where to nerf CW to the point where it did no damage, that is a lot of Radiant Enchantments that the devs would need to swap out for other enchantments.
Also, just because you feel as though (you in a general since not you in specific) that a class should be a curtain way that is your opinion. Not you speaking for every other person who plays a CW.
0
romotheoneMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 729Arc User
This legion guy is the new wave of troll, pretending to be one of the CWs who have been enlightened and trying to force his agenda onto naive players. Don't try to argue with him, he is not worth your time.
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
This legion guy is the new wave of troll, pretending to be one of the CWs who have been enlightened and trying to force his agenda onto naive players. Don't try to argue with him, he is not worth your time.
I always check post history before I get too deep in the weeds with these guys. Looks like he's pretty much an HR who's mad that he gets beat by CW's in dungeons. Here's one of his posts from The Wilds forum.
Yeah, I guess. I might be biased, I'm almost BiS geared with a 4.2k IL, so I tend to go for max dps and let the natural hp and defense on the sets keep me alive. It works decently, but unfortunately it is required to do so if we want to compete for Paingiver in dungeons
I remember a time when I was a king...
So there you have it. He's arguing that CWs shouldn't being doing damage because they should be a control class, while posting in HIS class forum that he goes all out DPS so he can "compete" for the Paingiver title.
Seriously people, just play your class and play it well...I just don't get what the fascination is with "Paingiver". I've never gotten anything special for "winning" a dungeon like that.
This legion guy is the new wave of troll, pretending to be one of the CWs who have been enlightened and trying to force his agenda onto naive players. Don't try to argue with him, he is not worth your time.
I always check post history before I get too deep in the weeds with these guys. Looks like he's pretty much an HR who's mad that he gets beat by CW's in dungeons. Here's one of his posts from The Wilds forum.
Yeah, I guess. I might be biased, I'm almost BiS geared with a 4.2k IL, so I tend to go for max dps and let the natural hp and defense on the sets keep me alive. It works decently, but unfortunately it is required to do so if we want to compete for Paingiver in dungeons
I remember a time when I was a king...
So there you have it. He's arguing that CWs shouldn't being doing damage because they should be a control class, while posting in HIS class forum that he goes all out DPS so he can "compete" for the Paingiver title.
Seriously people, just play your class and play it well...I just don't get what the fascination is with "Paingiver". I've never gotten anything special for "winning" a dungeon like that.
Exactly my point. I swear paingiver, it's like a placebo effect. Makes people feel important.
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
You know what makes me feel important? Dead bosses.
This legion guy is the new wave of troll, pretending to be one of the CWs who have been enlightened and trying to force his agenda onto naive players. Don't try to argue with him, he is not worth your time.
I always check post history before I get too deep in the weeds with these guys. Looks like he's pretty much an HR who's mad that he gets beat by CW's in dungeons. Here's one of his posts from The Wilds forum.
Yeah, I guess. I might be biased, I'm almost BiS geared with a 4.2k IL, so I tend to go for max dps and let the natural hp and defense on the sets keep me alive. It works decently, but unfortunately it is required to do so if we want to compete for Paingiver in dungeons
I remember a time when I was a king...
So there you have it. He's arguing that CWs shouldn't being doing damage because they should be a control class, while posting in HIS class forum that he goes all out DPS so he can "compete" for the Paingiver title.
Seriously people, just play your class and play it well...I just don't get what the fascination is with "Paingiver". I've never gotten anything special for "winning" a dungeon like that.
You misunderstand. I play HR yes. I also play GF. I also play CW. I also play GWF. I have played every class at endgame. HR is my favorite, but that doesn't mean I'm just "the new wave of troll". I'm also not mad I get beat by CWs in dungeons. I'm just a little perturbed when any average player can do it. That post is referring to the poor damage of HRs currently, especially my old favprite, combat. I also tend to care more about paingiver when I'm playing a striker class. Paingiver matters in that case, because I prefer to know how much damage I'm doing. If I'm rolling with BiS geared strikers, I don't care about place. But when I'm the main striker, I do. I also do compete for paingiver, I find it a fun way to ensure I am fulfilling my role and I like competition. It pushes me to do my best. That's why I want to win paingiver.
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
If your favorite class isn't performing as you want it to, talk to the devs about it. You're not going to get much help with HR's here.
This legion guy is the new wave of troll, pretending to be one of the CWs who have been enlightened and trying to force his agenda onto naive players. Don't try to argue with him, he is not worth your time.
I always check post history before I get too deep in the weeds with these guys. Looks like he's pretty much an HR who's mad that he gets beat by CW's in dungeons. Here's one of his posts from The Wilds forum.
Yeah, I guess. I might be biased, I'm almost BiS geared with a 4.2k IL, so I tend to go for max dps and let the natural hp and defense on the sets keep me alive. It works decently, but unfortunately it is required to do so if we want to compete for Paingiver in dungeons
I remember a time when I was a king...
So there you have it. He's arguing that CWs shouldn't being doing damage because they should be a control class, while posting in HIS class forum that he goes all out DPS so he can "compete" for the Paingiver title.
Seriously people, just play your class and play it well...I just don't get what the fascination is with "Paingiver". I've never gotten anything special for "winning" a dungeon like that.
You misunderstand. I play HR yes. I also play GF. I also play CW. I also play GWF. I have played every class at endgame. HR is my favorite, but that doesn't mean I'm just "the new wave of troll". I'm also not mad I get beat by CWs in dungeons. I'm just a little perturbed when any average player can do it. That post is referring to the poor damage of HRs currently, especially my old favprite, combat. I also tend to care more about paingiver when I'm playing a striker class. Paingiver matters in that case, because I prefer to know how much damage I'm doing. If I'm rolling with BiS geared strikers, I don't care about place. But when I'm the main striker, I do. I also do compete for paingiver, I find it a fun way to ensure I am fulfilling my role and I like competition. It pushes me to do my best. That's why I want to win paingiver.
This legion guy is the new wave of troll, pretending to be one of the CWs who have been enlightened and trying to force his agenda onto naive players. Don't try to argue with him, he is not worth your time.
I always check post history before I get too deep in the weeds with these guys. Looks like he's pretty much an HR who's mad that he gets beat by CW's in dungeons. Here's one of his posts from The Wilds forum.
Yeah, I guess. I might be biased, I'm almost BiS geared with a 4.2k IL, so I tend to go for max dps and let the natural hp and defense on the sets keep me alive. It works decently, but unfortunately it is required to do so if we want to compete for Paingiver in dungeons
I remember a time when I was a king...
So there you have it. He's arguing that CWs shouldn't being doing damage because they should be a control class, while posting in HIS class forum that he goes all out DPS so he can "compete" for the Paingiver title.
Seriously people, just play your class and play it well...I just don't get what the fascination is with "Paingiver". I've never gotten anything special for "winning" a dungeon like that.
You misunderstand. I play HR yes. I also play GF. I also play CW. I also play GWF. I have played every class at endgame. HR is my favorite, but that doesn't mean I'm just "the new wave of troll". I'm also not mad I get beat by CWs in dungeons. I'm just a little perturbed when any average player can do it. That post is referring to the poor damage of HRs currently, especially my old favprite, combat. I also tend to care more about paingiver when I'm playing a striker class. Paingiver matters in that case, because I prefer to know how much damage I'm doing. If I'm rolling with BiS geared strikers, I don't care about place. But when I'm the main striker, I do. I also do compete for paingiver, I find it a fun way to ensure I am fulfilling my role and I like competition. It pushes me to do my best. That's why I want to win paingiver.
But.........it's pointless........
Simply, I play this game to have fun, and while completing a dungeon is fun, having a little competition is fun too. It also makes me feel good about myself, which is a draw. It's simply a fun thing to "win". Its not a priority, just a small measure of success.
0
romotheoneMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 729Arc User
Following that logic, you shouldn't have come here complaining about CWs damage either. Or are you trying to win the competition by dragging everyone down through nerf/boost posts and misleading topics?
This legion guy is the new wave of troll, pretending to be one of the CWs who have been enlightened and trying to force his agenda onto naive players. Don't try to argue with him, he is not worth your time.
I always check post history before I get too deep in the weeds with these guys. Looks like he's pretty much an HR who's mad that he gets beat by CW's in dungeons. Here's one of his posts from The Wilds forum.
Yeah, I guess. I might be biased, I'm almost BiS geared with a 4.2k IL, so I tend to go for max dps and let the natural hp and defense on the sets keep me alive. It works decently, but unfortunately it is required to do so if we want to compete for Paingiver in dungeons
I remember a time when I was a king...
So there you have it. He's arguing that CWs shouldn't being doing damage because they should be a control class, while posting in HIS class forum that he goes all out DPS so he can "compete" for the Paingiver title.
Seriously people, just play your class and play it well...I just don't get what the fascination is with "Paingiver". I've never gotten anything special for "winning" a dungeon like that.
You misunderstand. I play HR yes. I also play GF. I also play CW. I also play GWF. I have played every class at endgame. HR is my favorite, but that doesn't mean I'm just "the new wave of troll". I'm also not mad I get beat by CWs in dungeons. I'm just a little perturbed when any average player can do it. That post is referring to the poor damage of HRs currently, especially my old favprite, combat. I also tend to care more about paingiver when I'm playing a striker class. Paingiver matters in that case, because I prefer to know how much damage I'm doing. If I'm rolling with BiS geared strikers, I don't care about place. But when I'm the main striker, I do. I also do compete for paingiver, I find it a fun way to ensure I am fulfilling my role and I like competition. It pushes me to do my best. That's why I want to win paingiver.
But.........it's pointless........
Simply, I play this game to have fun, and while completing a dungeon is fun, having a little competition is fun too. It also makes me feel good about myself, which is a draw. It's simply a fun thing to "win". Its not a priority, just a small measure of success.
Competition is fun, then again that's what PVP is for lol.
But on a serious note. If there are two tanks in a party, would the competition for most damage taken be a measure of success since they are both keeping mobs off the party? Same with two healers and healing out even though they a both keeping the party alive and topped off?
See where I'm getting at?
0
ironzerg79Member, Neverwinter Moderator, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 4,942Arc User
edited July 2015
The reality is the best players of their respective classes bring all their milkshakes to the yard.
Good tanks hold agro and are tough to kill. Great tanks hold agro, are tough to kill and bring the buffs. Amazing tanks hold agro, are tough to kill, bring buffs AND do great damage.
Good healers keep people alive. Great healers keep people alive while buffing and debuffing. Amazing healers keep people alive, buff/debuff AND do great damage.
Good CWs do amazing damage. Great CWs do amazing damage and CC. Amazing CWs do amazing damage, CC and Buff/Debuff.
See where I'm getting at? The best at their class bring the best of all the tools the class has, not just one.
If you're only doing damage, you're a bad CW.
If you're only doing crowd control, you're a bad CW.
If you're only trying to buff/debuff, you're a bad CW.
The reality is the best players of their respective classes bring all their milkshakes to the yard.
Good tanks hold agro and are tough to kill. Great tanks hold agro, are tough to kill and bring the buffs. Amazing tanks hold agro, are tough to kill, bring buffs AND do great damage.
Good healers keep people alive. Great healers keep people alive while buffing and debuffing. Amazing healers keep people alive, buff/debuff AND do great damage.
Good CWs do amazing damage. Great CWs do amazing damage and CC. Amazing CWs do amazing damage, CC and Buff/Debuff.
See where I'm getting at? The best at their class bring the best of all the tools the class has, not just one.
If you're only doing damage, you're a bad CW.
If you're only doing crowd control, you're a bad CW.
If you're only trying to buff/debuff, you're a bad CW.
pve and pvp in the game need to be completely split apart and powers need to be balanced separately depending on whether you are in pve or pvp..
Maybe the best thing I've ever read on this board.
The constant "balancing" nerf/buff/nerf ebb & flow is getting old.
I really think that the class juggling is often related to the very vocal PvP population complaining about nerfing one thing and buff the other. All the while some pve content has become almost unplayable.
Sure PvP should have their say, but I don't think their is enough of them to pay the bills. And contrary to their vocal presence, are not the majority.
I think PvP/PvE should have different rules and it could let the people that want to play without worrying about leader boards, play content where you won't die in 1 hit and classes are strong in what D&D designed them to be strong in for over 30 years now. D&D 1-3, Wizards post-lv 30 were gods, but in Neverwinter, you can be out DPSed by a OP wacking with a dog-bone; even with a major gear-difference, this should not be possible...
It'll never happen, but it's nice to think it might, because the current solution is, IMO, a total failure and all the numbers shine light on it.
True! In D&D 2.5-3 (like in Baldurs Gate, Icewind Dale and the old Neverwinter series) Wizards were amazing they pwnd whole armies with aoe spells like fireballs, meteor swarms. Spells like command spells, triggered-sequencer spells and (real!) Time stop were amazing. They were more like nuke aoe Wizards in WoW which this game starting to lack after mod3.
This D&D4 and this whole strike-controller thing is misleading and a nonsense.
This strike-controller concept was wiped out in D&D5 btw.
DPS matters even if you look down on paingiver as a measurement of who runs to the next room fastest. Ours isn't up to much right now. This is immediatly obvious in a group with built gwfs and sws. We are a dps class and we aren't up to much even before the nerf. I'm sorry but the holy trinity is relevant in mod 6. The control aspect, lol :phantomjerk:
True! In D&D 2.5-3 (like in Baldurs Gate, Icewind Dale and the old Neverwinter series) Wizards were amazing they pwnd whole armies with aoe spells like fireballs, meteor swarms. Spells like command spells, triggered-sequencer spells and (real!) Time stop were amazing. .
Oh, those were good times. triggers and timestops, even liches didn't stand a chance.
In 2/2.5, after lv30, a wizard was the party, and everyone else was just a shield.
Glad someone else remembers what I'm talking about.
Then CW, because they are supposed to do aoe damage to a large number of abilities, but their main purpose is to control. Also, the damage dealing wizards are known as war wizards. Control wizards are just control.
This is just laughable. Control? In T2 dungeons? I'd be lucky to freeze things for a few seconds before they unfreeze and one shot us. Once a control wizard goes down, all that control dissipates, instantly.
The power creep has occurred again, now it's getting a team with high DPS to burn mobs quickly rather than control.
I am sick and tired of hearing people say Control Wizards should only control first and foremost, when our control powers seem secondary at best in a dungeon run.
I'm also sick and tired of the dev's 'balancing' of storm spell not to critically strike now, when they have included an artifact set which does just that. It is still BiS for everyone, and not having it gimps one's character by a huge percentage of DPS.
The nerf to storm spell, which based on certain builds could be anywhere from 15-30% of personal DPS, and a lack of Lostmauth Set means that the CW would probably be nerfing his own power by about 30-60% total DPS output. It's just laughable to see people still saying we should just control, control control, when there is no increase in control, and an uncompensated massive decrease in DPS.
Then CW, because they are supposed to do aoe damage to a large number of abilities, but their main purpose is to control. Also, the damage dealing wizards are known as war wizards. Control wizards are just control.
This is just laughable. Control? In T2 dungeons? I'd be lucky to freeze things for a few seconds before they unfreeze and one shot us. Once a control wizard goes down, all that control dissipates, instantly.
The power creep has occurred again, now it's getting a team with high DPS to burn mobs quickly rather than control.
I am sick and tired of hearing people say Control Wizards should only control first and foremost, when our control powers seem secondary at best in a dungeon run.
I'm also sick and tired of the dev's 'balancing' of storm spell not to critically strike now, when they have included an artifact set which does just that. It is still BiS for everyone, and not having it gimps one's character by a huge percentage of DPS.
The nerf to storm spell, which based on certain builds could be anywhere from 15-30% of personal DPS, and a lack of Lostmauth Set means that the CW would probably be nerfing his own power by about 30-60% total DPS output. It's just laughable to see people still saying we should just control, control control, when there is no increase in control, and an uncompensated massive decrease in DPS.
This is just laughable. Control? In T2 dungeons? I'd be lucky to freeze things for a few seconds before they unfreeze and one shot us. Once a control wizard goes down, all that control dissipates, instantly.
Depends on how you build for control. Unlike in PvP, there are a lot of companion bonuses which you can stack upto more than 100% control bonus easily in PvE. Most CW players that complain that CWs can't control anything usually invest in less than 30% control bonus, and yes, when the stats are like these, indeed, you can't really control anything in T2 dungeons and the elite-grade mobs. Try going over 90% in control bonus and that's where the real game begins for dedicated controllers.
Of course, generally speaking, it is undeniable that DPS is the better way to go, just due to the fact that every dungeon boss, ultimately, is immune to all controls. Some krappy designed critters like the big blue drakes that are inherently immune to controls, as well as mini-bosses are also what makes controls undesirable.
The power creep has occurred again, now it's getting a team with high DPS to burn mobs quickly rather than control.
I am sick and tired of hearing people say Control Wizards should only control first and foremost, when our control powers seem secondary at best in a dungeon run.
Again, it just depends on the amount of your committment. Obviously, if you want to be called a controller, then its either all or nothing. You invest into it fully, or don't.
I'm also sick and tired of the dev's 'balancing' of storm spell not to critically strike now, when they have included an artifact set which does just that. It is still BiS for everyone, and not having it gimps one's character by a huge percentage of DPS.
The nerf to storm spell, which based on certain builds could be anywhere from 15-30% of personal DPS, and a lack of Lostmauth Set means that the CW would probably be nerfing his own power by about 30-60% total DPS output. It's just laughable to see people still saying we should just control, control control, when there is no increase in control, and an uncompensated massive decrease in DPS.
Repetition of the above. There are ways to increase control. It just simply depends on whether you are willing to commit or not.
Icy veins, no?....OK.
There are two elements that make a good control wizard. One is the duration of the control, and the second is the recasting speed of those controls. Emprically speaking, if you can basically freeze/hold mobs around 4 seconds or more, while bringing down the recharge of all your control powers to less than 10 seconds, it starts to work out. (ie. I hold/freeze normal mobs for around 12~13 seconds, and 'high CC resistance mobs' in dungeons for around 4~5. Nowadays I don't even use Orbosition in normal pve content)
Icy Veins is an excellent method to dish out 5 chill stacks, which best synergizes with Icy Terrains, one of the most important powers for a controller build. It helps with insta-AoE freeze.
(ps) Boy.. do I hate this fekkin' SimpleHTML format. What the heck did they do to our familiar, good ol' BBS code format?? !)@*#(&!)!&
Post edited by kweassa on
Stop making excuses. Be a man. If you know something to be broken, stop using it. Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
I think hunter rangers are also controllers, and they also excel at aoe. Not just control wizards. I disagree with the nerf on the cw, if they are increasing the amount of control resist mobs have and decreasing our damage output then I see it being hard for the cw to excel at anything. It's a huge injustice. I would like storm spell back to what it was and see the mof paragon buffed in some way compatible to a spell storm.
Rather than nerfing I would like to see all forms of dps being able to deal equal amounts of dps. This way people play the class they enjoy rather than rerolling every time some other class has an unfair advantage which these nerfs/buffs are creating.They would be equal strong just deal their damage in different ways. especially cause with all these paragons each class can do almost anything as long as it's permitted by the class (we aren't going to see tr healers) but I would love to see devotion op, heallocks, and clerics (faithful or virtuous) to be able to dish out equal healing. Ooo or or have gf and paladin to take equal tanking..
I don't even wanna see the lostmauth set nerfed. Cause gosh darnit, if you spent all that time getting that set you deserve that freaking op set bonus as far as I see it.
Let's buff instead of nerf. Equal pain given, higher player satisfaction. That is my motto.
0
aulduronMember, NW M9 PlaytestPosts: 1,351Arc User
Rangers are striker/controllers, wizards are controller/strikers. Wizards are better strikers than they are controllers, and rangers are generally wanted more for their control than their damage.
i class both classes in the same boat, and would like for them to have equal footing in that boat. My best friend is hunter ranger and he's amazing with it he loves the gameplay. I am wizard. In the Xbox we deal similar damage and have similar control, but in two days it might be different, maybe both will see less control and wizard see less damage. I tried hunter ranger and it doesn't suit my play style.
My mains are support cleric with 14k gs (might make it rebuff/dps cleric in two days cause the paladin is better at healing), and spell storm control wizard (ironzergs renegade build which I'm keeping) with 13k gs
My secondary is a gwf using lazalias build, I'm up to 13k gs currently.
I tried hunter ranger, trickster rogue, and gf but couldn't get into their gameplay.
I will be building both devotion and protection Paladins and then keep both... They both look so cool to me so far.
Comments
"zacazu, everything you say is wrong.
From the very beginning of Neverwinter, CW has been a DPS class while being Controllers. After 2 years with 6 major changes to the game, if the devs wanted to relegate CW to putting carrots on the noses of snowmen, it would have happened by now."
my response? dev quote
m3 (past)
"To be perfectly frank, the CW is very much out of line right now. They provide too much damage and their AoEs don't really conform to the same damage rules as they ideally should. But we have looked at various reasons as to why they cause problems and some of that lies in their feats, some in their base ratios, some in target caps, and that is really quite a few dials to tune all at once. We are looking at where they belong and what role they need to fit into in combat, as well as ways to preserve some roles that players enjoy without making them the best option at all times."
m6 (present)
"As far as not critically striking, because of the way the power functions it was *always* critically striking and could never not crit, which meant that vorpal and other effects that boost critical severity were worth several times more value on this feature than intended when it originally got buffed. Since it cannot just natively crit (because it actually latches on to your powers so their targeting is inherited), I've opted to prevent it from critically striking instead of lowering the damage, which puts it more in line with where it should be. This is the bigger of the two nerfs. In cases where it was making up 30% of your damage, it will probably fall closer to 18%, which is much more in line with what we wanted from this feature in comparison with the options MoF brings to the table."
past+"present"=history of the class
you need think less and read more. be sarcastic (or try) in your case is just bad irony of destiny.
Eu não quero voltar mais aqui, mas vocês pedem por uma surra.
ps: por isto eu falei em discutir em duas linhas. são incapazes de entender o que leem, e isto inclui o argumento de outros que TAMBÉM não entendem o que leem. trágico. (ou fingem; o que atribuo a algum tipo de fetiche)
Lets do this: make some mimimi below and I'll try ignore this time.
The second quote was something he knew when he made the power proc on crit
Wrong. Striker classes should top damage charts. In other words, HR, SW, and TR. GWF should be next, because they are a hybrid striker/defender. Then CW, because they are supposed to do aoe damage to a large number of abilities, but their main purpose is to control. Also, the damage dealing wizards are known as war wizards. Control wizards are just control. GF should be next, because fighters are suppose to do good damage for a defender. Then OP, because defenders still.come above leaders. And finally DC, because the entire purpose of leaders is support, not damage. By the way, control is CC effects and rebuffs, making control wizards have a secondary role of leader, not striker. They should be able to up respectable damage, on par with say a control or support focused striker, but even a damage path should not beat a true striker trying to be a striker. This is the truth, and the fact CWs were the best damage dealers for 5 modules was a mistake that is finally being fixed. I for one am glad. I enjoy CW, but my favorite build is a MoF Oppressor with spell twisting. Watching my enemies be unable to do anything while my striker buddies beat them up is an amazing feeling. And I know what it feels like to be on the receiving end of having a good CW. I believe CW will remain the most wanted class for dungeons if we give up our dreams of being a striker and just try to help our party in the way we do best; by controlling the living sh*t out of them
This I gotta disagree with. For all classes there should be some versatility. You should have the option to be either a controller or dps, Dps or tank, etc. Just saying keep support as support and dps as dps is crazy. And it destroys game play for people.
Like I said before and many others. If you limit our dps give us CC to fall back on. But don't leave us with nothing.
Me person I like my sudo hybrid build. It works. It CC's for a good amount of time and I do a bit of damage. I'm not totally concerned with paingiver but I'm normally number 2. And I'm just fine with that. I don't mind being a back up dps that's not too far off from the main dps in a group. I have that niche and it works. But to out right limit a class and saying they should only do that isn't right. Even more so when the game was not set up originally like that. If they where to nerf CW to the point where it did no damage, that is a lot of Radiant Enchantments that the devs would need to swap out for other enchantments.
Also, just because you feel as though (you in a general since not you in specific) that a class should be a curtain way that is your opinion. Not you speaking for every other person who plays a CW.
I always check post history before I get too deep in the weeds with these guys. Looks like he's pretty much an HR who's mad that he gets beat by CW's in dungeons. Here's one of his posts from The Wilds forum.
So there you have it. He's arguing that CWs shouldn't being doing damage because they should be a control class, while posting in HIS class forum that he goes all out DPS so he can "compete" for the Paingiver title.
Seriously people, just play your class and play it well...I just don't get what the fascination is with "Paingiver". I've never gotten anything special for "winning" a dungeon like that.
Exactly my point. I swear paingiver, it's like a placebo effect. Makes people feel important.
Cheers to that lol.
You misunderstand. I play HR yes. I also play GF. I also play CW. I also play GWF. I have played every class at endgame. HR is my favorite, but that doesn't mean I'm just "the new wave of troll". I'm also not mad I get beat by CWs in dungeons. I'm just a little perturbed when any average player can do it. That post is referring to the poor damage of HRs currently, especially my old favprite, combat. I also tend to care more about paingiver when I'm playing a striker class. Paingiver matters in that case, because I prefer to know how much damage I'm doing. If I'm rolling with BiS geared strikers, I don't care about place. But when I'm the main striker, I do. I also do compete for paingiver, I find it a fun way to ensure I am fulfilling my role and I like competition. It pushes me to do my best. That's why I want to win paingiver.
I didn't come here to talk about HRs. You brought that up, and I was simply clarifying.
But.........it's pointless........
Simply, I play this game to have fun, and while completing a dungeon is fun, having a little competition is fun too. It also makes me feel good about myself, which is a draw. It's simply a fun thing to "win". Its not a priority, just a small measure of success.
Competition is fun, then again that's what PVP is for lol.
But on a serious note. If there are two tanks in a party, would the competition for most damage taken be a measure of success since they are both keeping mobs off the party? Same with two healers and healing out even though they a both keeping the party alive and topped off?
See where I'm getting at?
Good tanks hold agro and are tough to kill. Great tanks hold agro, are tough to kill and bring the buffs. Amazing tanks hold agro, are tough to kill, bring buffs AND do great damage.
Good healers keep people alive. Great healers keep people alive while buffing and debuffing. Amazing healers keep people alive, buff/debuff AND do great damage.
Good CWs do amazing damage. Great CWs do amazing damage and CC. Amazing CWs do amazing damage, CC and Buff/Debuff.
See where I'm getting at? The best at their class bring the best of all the tools the class has, not just one.
If you're only doing damage, you're a bad CW.
If you're only doing crowd control, you're a bad CW.
If you're only trying to buff/debuff, you're a bad CW.
Makes sense to me lol
The constant "balancing" nerf/buff/nerf ebb & flow is getting old.
I really think that the class juggling is often related to the very vocal PvP population complaining about nerfing one thing and buff the other. All the while some pve content has become almost unplayable.
Sure PvP should have their say, but I don't think their is enough of them to pay the bills. And contrary to their vocal presence, are not the majority.
I think PvP/PvE should have different rules and it could let the people that want to play without worrying about leader boards, play content where you won't die in 1 hit and classes are strong in what D&D designed them to be strong in for over 30 years now. D&D 1-3, Wizards post-lv 30 were gods, but in Neverwinter, you can be out DPSed by a OP wacking with a dog-bone; even with a major gear-difference, this should not be possible...
It'll never happen, but it's nice to think it might, because the current solution is, IMO, a total failure and all the numbers shine light on it.
This D&D4 and this whole strike-controller thing is misleading and a nonsense.
This strike-controller concept was wiped out in D&D5 btw.
In 2/2.5, after lv30, a wizard was the party, and everyone else was just a shield.
Glad someone else remembers what I'm talking about.
This is just laughable. Control? In T2 dungeons? I'd be lucky to freeze things for a few seconds before they unfreeze and one shot us. Once a control wizard goes down, all that control dissipates, instantly.
The power creep has occurred again, now it's getting a team with high DPS to burn mobs quickly rather than control.
I am sick and tired of hearing people say Control Wizards should only control first and foremost, when our control powers seem secondary at best in a dungeon run.
I'm also sick and tired of the dev's 'balancing' of storm spell not to critically strike now, when they have included an artifact set which does just that. It is still BiS for everyone, and not having it gimps one's character by a huge percentage of DPS.
The nerf to storm spell, which based on certain builds could be anywhere from 15-30% of personal DPS, and a lack of Lostmauth Set means that the CW would probably be nerfing his own power by about 30-60% total DPS output. It's just laughable to see people still saying we should just control, control control, when there is no increase in control, and an uncompensated massive decrease in DPS.
This is just laughable. Control? In T2 dungeons? I'd be lucky to freeze things for a few seconds before they unfreeze and one shot us. Once a control wizard goes down, all that control dissipates, instantly.
The power creep has occurred again, now it's getting a team with high DPS to burn mobs quickly rather than control.
I am sick and tired of hearing people say Control Wizards should only control first and foremost, when our control powers seem secondary at best in a dungeon run.
I'm also sick and tired of the dev's 'balancing' of storm spell not to critically strike now, when they have included an artifact set which does just that. It is still BiS for everyone, and not having it gimps one's character by a huge percentage of DPS.
The nerf to storm spell, which based on certain builds could be anywhere from 15-30% of personal DPS, and a lack of Lostmauth Set means that the CW would probably be nerfing his own power by about 30-60% total DPS output. It's just laughable to see people still saying we should just control, control control, when there is no increase in control, and an uncompensated massive decrease in DPS.
Icy veins, no?....OK.
Of course, generally speaking, it is undeniable that DPS is the better way to go, just due to the fact that every dungeon boss, ultimately, is immune to all controls. Some krappy designed critters like the big blue drakes that are inherently immune to controls, as well as mini-bosses are also what makes controls undesirable.
Again, it just depends on the amount of your committment. Obviously, if you want to be called a controller, then its either all or nothing. You invest into it fully, or don't.
Repetition of the above. There are ways to increase control. It just simply depends on whether you are willing to commit or not.
There are two elements that make a good control wizard. One is the duration of the control, and the second is the recasting speed of those controls. Emprically speaking, if you can basically freeze/hold mobs around 4 seconds or more, while bringing down the recharge of all your control powers to less than 10 seconds, it starts to work out. (ie. I hold/freeze normal mobs for around 12~13 seconds, and 'high CC resistance mobs' in dungeons for around 4~5. Nowadays I don't even use Orbosition in normal pve content)
Icy Veins is an excellent method to dish out 5 chill stacks, which best synergizes with Icy Terrains, one of the most important powers for a controller build. It helps with insta-AoE freeze.
(ps) Boy.. do I hate this fekkin' SimpleHTML format. What the heck did they do to our familiar, good ol' BBS code format?? !)@*#(&
If you know something to be broken, stop using it.
Otherwise, you've got no right to be speaking of 'balance.'
Rather than nerfing I would like to see all forms of dps being able to deal equal amounts of dps. This way people play the class they enjoy rather than rerolling every time some other class has an unfair advantage which these nerfs/buffs are creating.They would be equal strong just deal their damage in different ways. especially cause with all these paragons each class can do almost anything as long as it's permitted by the class (we aren't going to see tr healers) but I would love to see devotion op, heallocks, and clerics (faithful or virtuous) to be able to dish out equal healing. Ooo or or have gf and paladin to take equal tanking..
I don't even wanna see the lostmauth set nerfed. Cause gosh darnit, if you spent all that time getting that set you deserve that freaking op set bonus as far as I see it.
Let's buff instead of nerf. Equal pain given, higher player satisfaction. That is my motto.
My mains are support cleric with 14k gs (might make it rebuff/dps cleric in two days cause the paladin is better at healing), and spell storm control wizard (ironzergs renegade build which I'm keeping) with 13k gs
My secondary is a gwf using lazalias build, I'm up to 13k gs currently.
I tried hunter ranger, trickster rogue, and gf but couldn't get into their gameplay.
I will be building both devotion and protection Paladins and then keep both... They both look so cool to me so far.
Oh I'm also looking for a new guild.